The Unreasonableness of the Separation Made Apparent 2, Part 1 · Reason 5
The fifth Reason.
Fr. Iohnson.
None may heare, or have any spirituall communion with those ministers, which minister the holy things of God, and worke upon the consciences of men, by vertue of a false spirituall calling.
Such are the ministers of the Church-assemblys of England. Ergo
None may heare, or have any spirituall communion with them.
VV. Bradshaw
This argument, which here he brings against our ministery, is the very same with the 2. For by a false spirituall calling, he meanes a calling proceeding from the Apostasy of Antichrist.
The proposition he prooves for brevity sake by five and thirty places of Scripture. And yet whosoever shall be pleased to take the pains to examine them, shall finde that neither severally, nor joyntly they proove the same.
The Assumption, where on the whole weight of the controversie leaneth, he prooveth onelyonly by the first argument, whereby be prooved the Assumption of the 2. Reason, viz.
Because they doe it by vertue of theire ministery received of theire Prelates, from theire spirituall autority, which is usurped and Antichristian. And this is all this witnesse hath to say; and all the answere it needeth: onelyonly he wandereth into certaine objections and queries, grounded upon some supposed defences of some of our ministers, unto which I will (though I need not) give a briefe answere from point to point.
Here Maister Can lets all goe as it will: onelyonly chargeth Maister Bradshaw with idle scoffing at Maister Iohnson for quotation of many Scriptures. Whereas he taxeth Maister Iohnson (and it seemeth not unjustly; for Maister Can his Proctor stands mute here in his defence) for alledging a multitude of Scriptures, for that, which they neither severally, nor jointly proove. That which is indeed a foule abuse of Scripture, though with them overusuall. And Maister Cans office had been, (if he could at least) to have cleared his client of wrong therein offered to Gods sacred Worde, by prooving his proofes pertinent. For as for his twitting Maister Bradshaw for not quoting Scipture, his place required it not; his office being not to proove, but to answere by destinction or deniall.
Fr. Iohnson.
Some say, they preach, not by vertue of theire ministery taken from the Prelates; but by vertue of some other calling and authority.
VV. Bradshaw
I know none, having received ordination from the Prelates, that need denie that they preach partly by vertue of the ministery which they have taken from them: no though they holde the calling of Prelates unlawfull. For what is the ministery which they have taken from them, for the substance thereof; but (after a triall of theire gifts) a liberty and leave granted unto them to preach the word of God; and administer the Sacraments, in such congregations as they shall be called unto.
Fr. Iohnson.
Why will such seeme to renounce that calling received of the Prelates, and yet blame us for doeing the like?
VV. Bradshaw
They may acknowledge a further calling, then that of the Prelates, and yet not therein renounce the calling received from the Prelates, but rather ratify the same. For the Prelates, being learned Divines, and having approoved of their gifts, and by words and letters testimoniall given liberty, to execute the ministery of the Gospell, they doe not thereby thrust them into a ministery, but they leave them to be further called or chosen, either by the people or those Patrones, unro whose fidelity the people have committed this charge.
And therefore this acknowledging of a further calling, maketh nothing to the justification of the proud and ignorant scisme of these persons.
1, In this invective (for so he is pleased to stile it) Maister Can telleth us, there are many grievious errors bound up; but one that for lying surmounts the… all. And what is that, thinke we? Surely this; that the Prelates doe not thrus… them into a ministery, but leave them to be called by the people, or patrones, &c. This he saith he hath, prooved elsewhere to be very false; and it is strange to him, that they should dare to affirm so known and apparent an untruth.
But this is a sory cavill, since that Maister Bradshaws meaning is manifest, that the ministers are not upon the Prelates ordaining them, necessarily thereby putt into any pastorall charge or ministeriall imployment. Nor doth Maister Can proove any such thing in that place of this his rambling rapsodie, that he turneth us over to, for the justification of this his charge.
As for the other many grievious errors in this invective of Maister Bradshaw, since Maister Can hath not vouchsafed to tell us what they are, we have nothing to say to them, till he be pleased to detect them: and till then therefore we let him with the rest of his lavish language here, containing no new charge, but descanting and dilating in his tragicall outcries after his usuall guise upon the former, passe for the present.
2. Hee demandeth some good proofe for the things, th…t this bolde man (remember you must, who speaks it) here affirmeth. First that the people have committed this charge unto the fidelitie of patrones. 2. If they have, whither the thing be Lawfull or no?
Now what be the things that this bolde man here affirmeth? for Maister Can relateth but one; and that one might easily (if need were) be confirmed out of those Authors that have written, either modern of ancient, of the grounds of such right of patronage, arising from the foundation of Parochiall Churches or the endowment of them, confirmed by our Laws, to which the whole body of the realme are parties: not to adde that, which is well enough known; that many of them are no other then Feoffees in trust for the body of the Parish or congregation, being by their joinct act therein infeoffed. But Maister Cans office was to have disprooved it, if he could. For as for his other quere of the Lawfulnesse of the thing; Maister Bradshaw speakes onelyonly de facto: nor doth he deliver any one word in way of approbation of it; much lesse laboureth, (as Maister Can here chargeth him) what he can, (which is utterly untrue) to maintaine so vile and wicked a thing, as he tearmeth it.
Nor, on the other side, if any other doe (as he saith) condemne all Patrones as Latrones, or any patrones by theire abuse of the trust reposed in them, have deservedly been so stiled, is that ought to Maister Bradshaw, who hath nothing here to answere for, but what he himselfe hath here avowed?
But what is all this to the strengthning of Maister Iohnsons objection, & his demand, why such, as themselves renounce the calling received from the Prelates, blame him and his for the like? or to the taking away of Maister Bradshaws direct answere thereunto; that such men doe not wholly re…ounce it, though they acknowledge a further calling; nor doe blame them so much for renouncing of it, as for their seditious and arrogant schisme, and their unchristian and uncharitable censure of others?
Fr. Iohnson.
If they preach by vertue of an other calling, how then stand they ministers of that Church, where no other is allowed? and how impose they themselves upon any of their parish assemblys, seeing the Lawes of the Land allow onelyonly the Prelacy, Priesthood and Deaconry aforesaid?
VV. Bradshaw
Though this should be granted, which he in his ignorant simplicity doth suppose, that some amongst us, having been ordained by the Prelates, did exercise our ministery by vertue of an other calling; and though the Law of the Land allow no other, yet (especially so long as they are permitted to execute theire ministery by those in Authoritie, though it be by vertue of an other calling) they are to be reputed ministers of that Church, that hath use of theire ministery.
Fr. Iohnson
How allso herein can they avoid, to be both intruders and hypocrites? intruders, in taking upon themselves a publicke office in that Church against the publick Laws and constitutions thereof; hypocrites, because they pretend in shew one thing to the Prince and State, and yet perform an other indeed?
VV. Bradshaw
All these inferences are upon a false supposition, yet if there were any such persons, they could no more therein be said to be intruders and hypocrites, then they of the Separation are. For though the publick Laws should be against any other calling, yet so long as they take an office by a good calling, they cannot be said to intrude themselves. Neither doe any such amongst us (if there be any such) pretend in shew any more, than they doe indeed perform. For so far forth as any differ in judgment from the publick Laws of the State, they are ready to professe it, being called thereunto; and they practise onelyonly that, which they judge Lawfull; being as ready as any of the separation, to suffer rather then practise, approove, or assent unto any thing, which they judge unlawfull and unwarrantable.
Fr. Iohnson.
But suppose they had some other Lawfull calling; yet they also retaining this unlawfull calling of the Prelates, this were but to halt betweene two opinions, and to set theire thresholdes by Gods thresholdes, and theire posts by Gods posts.
VV. Bradshaw
How can such be said to retain the unlawfull calling of the Prelates, which protest against the same, and professe that they preach not by that, but by an other calling? But if there be any such, that exercise their ministery by an other calling, besides that of the Prelates, they therein refuse obedience and conformitie to whatsoever in the Prelates calling they judge unlawfull; and so doe not joyn an unlawfull and a Lawfull calling together: but reject the corruptions, retain the good, and supply the defect with an other calling. And this is the worst that can be made of it, but this is not to joine mans thresholdes to Gods, &c. but cleane contrarie to separate them as much as may be. And how can they be said to halt between two opinions, when so far one lie, as the trueth (in theire judgment and opinion) is established by publick Laws, they imbrace it, acknowledging theire subjection to the same Laws: and contrarily, where they judge that the Law swerves from the trueth, they take an other course. But still he beggs this (which is the maine controversy) that our ministers have received an unlawfull calling from the Prelates.
In the next place he labours to proove by reasons, that howsoever some pretend an other calling, yet it is evident that they execute all the dutys of theire ministeries, by vertue of their calling taken from theire Prelates. But what of that? this will stand him in no stead, unlesse it be given him of almes; That every ministery executed by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates, is an unlawfull, and an Antichristian ministery. For proove it he can not: And if we should, except this also be given him: That our ministerie is executed ONELYONLY by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates; and not by any other power or vertue besides, taken either from God or man. But let us see his Reasons.
Fr. Iohnson.
1. They can not stand publick ministers, except they receive of the Prelates the Priesthood and Deaconrie aforesaid.
2. They are excommunicated ipso facto, if they affirm, that they who are made Bishops, Deacons & Priests, are not Lawfully made, untill they have some other calling.
3. The people have not the liberty of the Churches of Christ, nor power in this theire estate to choose and submitt unto the true and Lawfull ministery appointed by Christ.
4. Without and against the peoples consent, they are by the Prelates alone silenced, deprived and degraded from exercising any ministety in those assemblys.
VV. Bradshaw
These Reasons doe not proove that they exercise their ministerie ONELYONLY by vertue of a calling received from the Prelates: and therefore whether true or false are nothing to the purpose; and unworthy any further answere.
After this he fetcheth an other rode out, and laboureth to proove; that our ministers ought not to suffer themselves to be silenced, and deposed from their publick ministery, no not by Lawfull Magistrates: which is not onelyonly false and seditious, as shall appeare afterwards; but also idle and impertinent to the present controversy: for if it were true, that ministers ought not to doe in this case, as ours doe; yet this doth not argue, any corruption in the calling of their ministery, but a weakenesse onelyonly i… the persons that execute it; in yeelding further from their own right, then they need to doe. But let us consider the particulars, that he objecteth against our ministers in this respect.
Fr. Iohnson.
The Apostles, being true ministers of Christ, would not at the commandement of Lawfull Magistrates, leave to preach: much lesse should true ministers at the appointment of usurping Prelates. Neither did the Apostles make their immediate calling from God, the ground of their refusall; but this, that they ought to obey God rather then man; which is a duty required of all ministers & Christians.
VV. Bradshaw.
1. Where he distinguisheth between silencing and depriving by Prelates, and Lawfull Magistrates; it is in our cause, where the Prelates doe it by autority and commission from Lawfull Magistrates, a distinction without a difference.
2. Though the Apostles did not assigne theire immediate calling from God, as the ground of theire refusall in so many letters and syllables, yet that which they doe assigne, is by implication, and in effect the same with it: for it is as much as if they had said; God himselfe hath imposed this calling upon us, & not man; and therefore except we should rather obey man, than God, we may not forbeare this office, which he hath imposed upon us. For opposing the obedience of God to the obedience of man, he therein pleades a calling from God, & not from man: otherwise, if they had received a calling from man, there had been incongruity in the answere: considering, that in common sense and reason, they ought so far forth to obey men, forbidding them to exercise a calling, as they exercise the same by vertue of that calling. Else by this reason a minister should not cease to preach, upon the commandement of the Church, that hath chosen him; but should be bound, to give them allso the same answere, which the Apostles gave; which were absurd. So that by this grosse conceite of Maister Iohnson, there should be no power in any sort of men whomsoever, to depose a minister from his ministery; but that notwithstanding any commandement of Church or State, the minister is to continue in his ministery.
But for the further answere of this his ignorant conceite, plainly tending to sedition, we are to know: that though the Apostles, Prophets and Evangelists preached publickly where they were not hindered by open violence; and did not, nor might not leave their ministerie upon any humane authoritie & commandement whatsoever, because they did not enter into, or exercise the same upon the will and pleasure of any man whatsoever; yet they never erected and planted publick Churches and ministerys in the face of the Magistrate, whither they would or no, or in despite of them. But such, in respect of the eye of the Magistrate, were as private and invisible as might be.
Neither weere some of the Apostles onelyonly forbidden, so as others should be suffered to preach the same Gospell in their places; but the utter abolishing of Christian religion, was manifestly intended in silencing of them. But our Churches, whereof we are ministers, are no private and secret assemblys, such as hide themselves from the face of a persecuting Magistrate and State, but are publick, professing their worship and doeing their religion, in the face of the Magistrate and State, yea and by his countenance autority and protection: and we are set over those Churches, not onelyonly by a calling of our people, but allso by the authoritie of the Magistrate, who hath an armed power to hinder any such publick action; who is willing allso to permitt and maintaine other true ministers of the Gospell in those places where he forbiddeth some. If therefore after our publick calling, to minister to such a known and publick Church, not by the Church onelyonly, but by the Magistrate allso, the Magistrate shall have matter against us (whither just or unjust, it skilleth not) and shall in that regard forbid us to minister to our Church: I see not by what warrant in Gods word, we should thinke ovr selves bound notwithstanding to exercise our ministery still: Except we should think such a Law of ministery to lie upon us, that we should judge our selves bound to runne upon the swordes point of the Magistrate, or to oppose sworde to sworde: It being not the use of the higher powers, in such cas…s nakedly to forbid, but to set a sworde to the breast; thereby to force them which shall refuse. And suppose the Magistrate should doe it unjustly, & against the will of the Church, and should therein sinne; yet doth not the Church in that regard cease to be a Church, nor ought she therein to resist the will of the Magistrate: Neither doth she stand bound, in regard of her affection to her minister (how greate and deserved soever) to deprive her selfe of the protection of the Magistrate, by leaving her publick standing, to follow her ministery in private and the dark; refusing the benefit of all other publick ministerie, which with the leave and liking of the Magistrate, she may enjoy.
Neither doe I know what warrant any ordinarie minister hath by Gods wo…d in such a case, so to draw any such Church or people to his private ministery, that thereby they should hazzard their outward State and quieth in the commonwealth where they live; when in some competent measure they may publickly, with the grace and favours of the Magistrate, enjoy the ordina…y meanes of their Salvation, by an other: and (except he have a call…ng to m… ster to some other Church) he is to be content to live as a private member, till it shall please God to reconcile the Magistrate unto him, and to call him aga…ne to his own Church; labouring meane while privately upon particular occasio…s offered, to strengthen and confirme in the ways of God, those people that are deprived of his publick labours. And I take it, to be the duty of the people, in such a case, if they will approove themselves faithfull Christians, and go…d subjects, so to submitt to the ministery of an other, as that by praier, and all other good, dutifull, and loyall meanes, they may doe their best indeavour to obtaine him, of whom against their will they have been deprived, and still to effect and love him as their Pastor: now if the people doe thus, then is that minister called to be silent, not onelyonly by the Magistrate, but by them also, though with much grief.
Fr. Iohnson.
It is the duty of all ministers & Christians, as well as Apostles, to obey God and not man, when man forbiddeth that which God commandeth, or commandeth, that which God forbiddeth.
VV. Bradshaw
True, but God no where; that I can finde, commandeth, either a minister to mini…er publickly in a publick Church maintained by the Magistrate, against the will and in de…pite of the Magistrate; no more then against the will and in de…pite of the Church it sel…e.
Fr. Iohnson.
Uriah at the commandement of the King made an Altar after the fashion of that of Damascus; but therein sinned, though he offered thereon …uch burnt offerings as God had appointed, much lesse may the ministerie under the Gospell be framed after any new manner devised by man; least of all after Antichrist; though in that ministery many doctrines of the Gospell be taught, & such Sacraments administred as God hath ordained.
VV. Brads…aw.
This Example of Uriah the Priest is altogether impertinent, unto that which goeth before. It being one thing upon the commandement of the Magistrate to forbeare the publick exercise of a true ministery: an other thing upon his commandement to frame a new ministerie, after a new manner devised by man, or Antichrist.
After this, he runns out of his way again to satisfy an objection that he had propounded & indeavoured (as far as his learning would give him leave) to answere before.
And which doth nothing at all depend upon any thing that goeth before in this argument: wherein he resembles some wanton currs, that take delight to runne round about to catch their own tailes: but let us see what it is he saith.
Fr. Iohnson.
Here againe concerning such as pleade, that they teach the truth, and manie excellent points of Doctrine; It is to be observed, that none may therefore heare their ministerie under colour of learning the truth; because in yeelding to heare and receive it from Antichrists ministerie, they defile the temple of God, & become the subjects of Antichrist.
VV. Bradshaw
Where he againe taketh it as a matter, that must, whether we will or no, be granted unto him; that our ministery is Antichrists ministery; which needs no other answere then before. Yet thus much further,
1. That no ministery whatsoever, (so far forth as it teacheth the trueth of Christ, especially a trueth opposite to the Doctrine of An…christ,) is the m…nisterie of Antichrist. And those which shall submitt and subject them e…ves unto any ministery whatsoever, onelyonly so farr forth as they minister and teach such trueth, cannot therein be said to defile the temple of God; or to be subjects of Antichrist, but be obedient to Iesus …hrist.
2. Our ministery, in divers Congregations of the Land at least, teach not onelyonly many excellent points of Doctrine: but so much Doctrine, as …s sufficient to the Salvation of him that beleeveth the same. Even all the main fundamentall points of Salvation clearely set down in Gods word. Yea, and for ought any can proove to the contrarie, all other lesse necessary points, so far forth as God hath revealed, and convinced theire consciences of the trueth of them.
3. Those amongst us, who make conscience of hearing our ministerie, doe not heare them under a colour of learning the trueth; but onelyonly to th…s very end and pu…pose, that they might learn the trueth, and therein the true way of serving and worshiping God accordin… to his own will.
Fr. Iohnson.
And not to speake of the many errors and falsehoods, which they also teach; it is no new thing that the ministers of Ant…christ, should in divers things teach and bring the trueth with them: for when Satan can not by fal…ehood utter his wares, ordinances, ministery, worship, he will be glad to utter the same by teaching the truth.
VV. Bradshaw.
1. Our Errors, whither for weight, or number, or qualitie, are not such, so great, so m…ny, but they may befall unto true Christians, whether ministers or people. Yea, (as Maister Iohnson well knoweth) many of the martyrs of Iesus Christ have lived and died, in more and greater errors of the …ame kinde. And therefore well may he passe by this point.
Th…s is but a piece of his simple Rhetorick, carelesly to seeme to passe by that which he can not proove. For how many errors can he name or number, that he is able to justifie to be taught in the ministerie of our Church-assemblys? What one truth of Religion can he name, that is not, or hath not been (when just occasion hath been offered) taught by some of our ministers? I am not igno…ant, that in his treatises against M. A. H. and M. H. I. he mustereth a whole troope of pretended Errors: but suppose them to be so many dist…nct Errors, how doth he proove they are taught in our ministerie, or that they are required by Law to be taught?
There is …deed a conformity and subscription required to some of them, & a Canon that requires, that the late Canons be read in Churches, some times in the yeare: as all…o, that the booke of Articles be read, at the first entrance upon an Ecclesiasticall charge, with a testification of Assent unto it. But is this ministerially to teach the Errors contained in the said bookes? may not a man in the weaknesse of his judgement, and in infirmity, at his first entrance into a calling, conforme and subscribe unto some things, not so warrantable and true, & yet not teach them for trueths? yea may he not for all that, teach doctrine in it se…fe d…rectly contrary to those untruthes? yea and yet satisfy also the minde of the Law, which being humane, and therefore not allways perfect, may command that very truth to be taught, wh…ch being thorowly followed, will destroy some untruths;, which the same Law all o requires?
Further, it is one thing to reade the Canons to the people, the…eby to declare unto them, what is required at their hands by their governers; an other th…ng, to teach and justify the errors contained in them: and to testify an assent unto some errors, is not ministerially to instruct the people in those errors.
2. Though it be no new thing that the ministers of Antichrist, should in divers things bring the trueth with them; Yet this is a new thing, and never heard off before, that the ministers of Antichrist should teach the whole trueth of Ie…us Christ, for the substance thereof: that they should oppose directly and zealously, against the maine and fundamentall doctrines of Antichrist; that they should professe him to be Antichrist, and that man of sinne; & to the shedding of their bloud should exercise their ministery against Antichrist and his Kingdome, protesting against him and his service. Were it not new and strange, that a man should be counted a true subject unto a Prince then, when he doth openly protest against him; counting him an usurping tyrant, and imploying all the wit, power and strength he hath against him? Such subjects of Antichrist are our ministers, or by the Laws such they ought to be. Could he be said to be a minister of Christ, that yeelding to some externall rites, and professing some doctrines of Christian faith, doth notwithstanding directly, openly & professedly renounce Christ and his service, and professe h mselfe to be an enemy to him, and his Kingdome? if it holde not in the one, is it not both a new and strange thing, that it should holde in the other?
3. Maister Iohnson out of his knowledge must teach us, how Satan can be said by teaching the truth, to utter his own ministery or worship: or how a Satanicall ministery can be uttered, when in and by the ministery, nothing but the truth of Christ is administred. What is the ministerie of Sata…, but the ministery of error? & how can the ministery of error be uttered by teaching the truth? or how can a ministery be said to be uttered by a truth, when it is the ministerie it selfe that uttered the truth? Surely no more then a marchandize can be said to be uttered by selling of wares. And were it not a wonder, if a man should utter his bad merchandize by selling good and sound wares? Satan and Antichrist indeed together with some truths, seeke to utter much falsehood, which otherwise (they know) would not be received. And many of our ministers are content to yeeld to some things, which they judge not so convenient (if it did otherwise seeme good to the State) to the end they may utter the truth. But that like Antichrist and Satan, our ministers should propound this unto themselves, to teach some trueths to this end, that they might thereby utter falsehood and lies, false ministeries and worships, is a malitious imputation, and can never be justifyed..
Here Maister Can having all this while been silent, like hounds at a losse, & having let Maister Iohnsons fond objections, & as frivolous reasons passe, as sufficiently by Maister Bradshaw answered; begins at length again to open and bark after his wonted manner; but, as Currs unmanaged, that run after a wrong game, and by theire yelping, indeavour to draw the rest of the pack after them.
1. Maister Bradshaw (saith he) asketh what errors we can proove in theire Church, & is so audacious to affirme, that those set downe by Maister Johnson are pretended. And hereupon he reckoneth up no lesse then 70. taking up well neere 2 whole pages, which he saith, have been published under our own hands, and professed to be poisonfull leaven of Antichrist. As among the rest. 1. The Popish names and offices of Arch-Bishops. 2. Lord-Bishops. 3. Their titles of primacy and Lords grace. 4. Their visitations, &c. 5. Their dominions, revenues and retinue. 6. Their black Chimer, white rotchet, and other popish apparrel. 6. Chancellors. 8. Deanes. 9. Subdeanes, and so forward, to Parsons, Vicars, Parish Priests, Chaplens, Clarks, Sextines, &c. For he will be sure to bring in the same persons, more then once, under divers names, rather then misse of his account. Though he saith, he could to these adde many a store of vile errors more. It is marvell, when the poore Sextine could not escape him, how the ringing of bells, and making of graves, and sweeping the Church, and shutting the dores, came not in among the rest, as vile, (not abuses but) errors in his beaderoll, but they are, it may be, among those that he saith he could, but doth not adde.
Whereas Maister Bradshaw neither demandeth what errors can be prooved to be in our Church (which he denieth not some to be) but how many errors he can name or number, to be taught in the ministery of our Church-assemblys. And all that Maister Can therefore here prates, is but meere smoake, unles he can proove his whole beaderoll of vile errors, (as he tearmeth them) the black chimer, the white rochet, & the Sexlines office, among the rest, to be taught, yea and generally taught, in all our Church-assemblys: and againe proove them to be errors so vile, that they make the Church-assemblys, where they are taught, to be no Churches of Christ. For without this presumed, no such separation from our Church-assemblys, as they maintaine, and Maister Iohnson undertakes to demonstrate, allbeit these were granted all to be errors, can be necessarily thence inferred.
As for his calling them a whole troope of pretended errors, which Maister Can also taketh exception to, and calleth unreasonable daubing) he might well so doe for divers causes.
1. Because, it seemeth, Mr. Iohnson had done there, as Mr. Can here, made distinctions without difference, to make his list of them the longer; & set down as distinct errors, points in substance the same.
2. Because he might deeme some of them at least, such as can not be prooved so to be. For what others have said, is nothing to him; nor is he bound to answere to it, or to make good what such have said.
3. Because Mr. Iohnson it is likely relateth them there onelyonly, as Mr. Can doth here; & they might well be tearmed, what ever they were in themselves, in regard of him, pretended, untill they be prooved by him so to be.
And Lastly, the question is, not so much here what they are, but it being taken for granted, that they are such as they are pretended to be, whither they be generally taught in our Church-assemblies or no.
As litle therefore to the purpoe is all that that followeth, that the errors above named are by autority commanded, and constantly practised (in every Church-assembly, think we, a black Chimer, a white rotchet, a Lord-Bishop, dispensation for boyes and dolts to have benefices? Yea or reading of homilies, or a dumb ministery?) and upon all occasions defended in publike and private; and there are terrible Canons against those that speakes against our Liturgie, Ceremonies, Church-government and ordination. All this nothing touching (though never so true, as part of it is nothing lesse then true) the point in present agitation.
2. To Maister Bradshaws demand of the contrarie, what one truth of religion is not taught by some of our ministers. Mr. Can answeres.
1. That this is not materiall to the point in controversie; seeing that none of them teach true Doctrine, but in a false and Antichristian calling; taking that for granted still, that remains still to be prooved: and yet is that materiall, that Maister Bradshaw here saith to Maister Iohnsons charge, and the answere to his objection.
1. That if we will beleeve the Non-conformists, Maister Bradshaw hath small cause to brag thus of our preaching, since that our ministers are for the most part ignorant asses, that either can not, or doe not preach; & a number of those that doe, prophane & heathenish Orators, the grace of whose preaching lyeth in affected eloquence, fond fables, &c.
For Maister Can, or who ever else he be, that shall passe such opprobrious tearmes upon the most part of our ministery, (how esteemed of in the reformed Churches of Christ abroade, the testimonies given in the writings of the principall men of note among them for learning and piety there unto; and theire sending over of theire young Students to learn a methode of preaching from the ministers in these parts, doth evidently shew) I will say no more; but as the angel sometime to the Prince of detracters and calumniaters, in whose traine Maister Can may well claime a prime place, The Lord rebuke thee, Satan.
But neither doth Maister Bradshaw here brag of our preaching; wherein yet I suppose we may truely say; that our Churches are not inferior for number of able men, yea and painfull ministers, to any of the Reformed Churches of Christ in foraine parts: Nor, though a number, yea the most part of our ministers were such as is here said, yet either would that any whit contradict ought that Maister Bradshaw here implieth; to wit, that the generall body of necessarie saving trueth, is entirely taught by some or other of our ministers; or justifie the necessary separation that these arrogant Schismatikes undertake to defend, from the ministerie or Church-assemblys of those that are not such.
3. That, though some of them deliver many sound trueths; yet they lay not the axe to the roote of the tree; they seeke not to suppresse the evils that raign most amongst them. And what are those? devised service, false ministerie, Antichristian government, &c.
But 1. here is the question pittyfullie begged: that taken for good & granted, that all the controversie is about; that our ministerie is false, and our service devised; in such sense as they intend: which neither he nor Mr. Iohnson have been able hitherto to proove.
2. Admitt the government established with us were such as he saith, (but neither doth attempt here, nor is able to proove) yet neither is that an evill raigning in our Church-assemblys; nor would the discussing of such controversys profite the people much more (though Maister Can so inform us) then our loud & long crying out of judgement, judgement onelyonly against swearers, drunckards, usurers, whoremongers, &c. (as if this were all the subject matter of our preaching in these parts:) & much lesse then the opening and pressing of the maine points of Christian faith and piety: which it is to be feared many of Mr. Cans faction are too raw in; though they can prate and pratle at large, more by roate than by reason, of a Churches calling and constitution.
3. To that Maister Bradshaw saith concerning, not the defence of reading, (as Maister Can fal…ely relateth him, but) the reading of the booke of Articles & Canons in the Church: that the reading of them is not ministerially to teach the errors (if any be) in the said bookes: Not approoving the same, but disapprooving it rather, as a weakenes in those, that supposing some errors therein contained, yet testify their assent thereunto; distinguishing between reading them as things required by theire governers, and justifying the things contained in them.
To this I say Maister Can replieth.
1. That if that which Maister Bradshaw saith be true, yet the fault is not the les. Which is nothing at all to the purpose.
2. That he speaketh falsely herein: for it is enjoyned them as a part of theire office, and none may by Law doe it but they. Which though it were granted to be as Mr. Can affirmeth; yet would it not proove that the reading of it so enjoyned, were ministerially to teach the things in the said booke contained; nor that Maister Bradshaw therefore speaketh untrue therein. Though ministers be enjoined to publish in the congregation his Majestys letters patents, in behalfe of such as have sustained great and grievous pretended losses, by casualty of fire or wrack at sea, &c. and none may by autoritie publish the same but they: yet it followeth not therefore, that they doe m…nisterial…y teach the relations therein contained.
3. If they doe not teach them for trueths, then it must be for lies and errors.
But it followeth not, if (as M. Bradshaw saith, and so he saith, nor doth Mr. Can d… proove him there…n) they teach them not at all.
4. His answere here, he saith, …s quite besi…es the point; & that he seeks me…rely to cozen his Reader. And why so? Forsooth, Mr, Ioh…son spe…k…s of Arti…les an… Canons, v…le and wicked things, (though neither he nor Mr. Iohnson shew them to be such,) and to this he replieth, (answereth he should say) may not a man in the weaknes of his judgement and infirmity, at his fi…st entrance into a calling, conform and subsc…ibe to some things not so warrantable & true, &c. Ergo he may conform to the damna…le Articles and Canons, reade them to the people. By the same reason of argu…ng, he may be a Iew, a Turk, a Heathen, any thing.
What a shameles either beast or bedlam is this? for I know not whither a man should tearm him. Where doth Maister Bradshaw say any such thing, or frame any such argument? that which he saith onelyonly is this; that a man may at his first entrance …nto a calling conforme and subscribe to some th…ngs …ot so warrantable and true, either ou… of weakenes of judgement (supposing them to be warrantable and true, when indeed they are not) or out of infirmity (yeelding there unto contrary to his own judgement concerning them) and yet (…n his ministery afterward) not teach them fo trueth Now how this agreeth what Mr. Can here chargeth upon him, or how by ought that is here said, liberty is given for any man to be Tu…k, Iew o… H…a…hen, or any thing, let any indifferent person judge.
For as for Mr. Cans raving clamours of vile, wicked, damnable Canons and A…ticl…s, and his appeale for such outcr…es to I know not what othe…s, for distemper, it may be, not wholly unlike himselfe; we are now …o enured to them, that we regard them no more, than the neighbouring borderers d…e the none of the roaring downfalls of Nilus.
5. Running back again, as in a wilde goose race, & suspecting, it seemeth, that he had not sufficiently taken away some of Mr. Bs. answeres to some of Mr. Is. former reasons, under colour of discovering some of Mr. Bs. senseles shif…s, he taketh occasion to make an Almond leape backward, & very solemny relateth.
That whereas Maister Iohnson prooveth our ministery to be unlawfull and Antichristian, because neither theire offices, calling nor administration is according to Gods word; but all taken from Antichrist; Maister Bradshaw childishly tells us, that true pastors and …eachers may want some accessory parts of theire offices, …. wh…ch answereth nothing to the point, nor is more to any purpose, then if a convicted traitor would seeke to proove his cause to be otherwise for that he wants some accessory parts of a true fuhject.
Thus this man of a bra…en brow, & (it is to be feared) of a seared conscience, not childishly, but malitiously, as one desperately bent to forge and vent any thing, though never so untrue, tending to the disgrace of his adversary, especially, if at the very instant it might not be diserned. For he points us to no place, where either Maister Iohnson so argueth, or Maister Bradshaw so answereth. Maister Iohnsons second reason runnes mainly upon this, that our ministery is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy. But in all Maister Bradshaws discourse in way of answere thereunto, there is not a title of our ministers wanting of some accesso y parts of their offices: much lesse any such answere as is here related to any such axiome or position of Maister Iohnsons, as it is here said to be returned unto. Or, if he had an eye to Maister Iohnsons first argument, for the proofe of the Assumption of his first reason, (for his arguments too oft interfere) the Assumpt…on whereof, he saith, is averred by this; that the offices, calling, entrance choise, ministrat on and maintainance of our ministers wer… never ordained by Christ; but are derived from Antichrist and his apostasy: Maister Bradshaw as the booke it selfe sheweth you, and did then shew him, not in answere to the Assumption, much lesse in answere to this related for the proofe of it, which he answereth to other wise at large, but in answere to the proposition (which is th s: The pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11. have t…eire offices, callings administration, and maintainance ordained by Christ in his Testament▪ a…d of which he distinguisheth) saith, it is not true, unles by offices, callings and administration he understand the substantiall or esse tiall parts thereof otherwise it is false: for that those very pasto…s and teachers, there spoken of, may (not want, as Maister Can he …e… late…h him, …u…) have divers accessory parts of their offices, callings, and administration, not ordained by Christ in the new Testament. Thus you see how shamelesly he twise in one breath, belyeth Maister Bradshaw affirming him 1. to say; They may want; when he saith, they may have, And 2. to return this as an answere to that assertion of Maister Iohnson: both which the booke it selfe before him gave him directly the lie in. It is childish indeed, to lay this as an imputat…on upon Ma…ster Bradshaw that he doth not relate in particular, what accessory parts, such may have; when it is his own part, if he will reply, to take away his distinction, by prooving that no such can be had. But it is not ch…ldish but knavish, thus wickedly and maliciously, out of his own mischeivous brain-pan, to forge and frame such absurd and senslesse answers, and then to father them upon others. In steed …herefore of that he addeth; that th…s is a… if a conv…cted traitor, would proove his cause to be otherwise, for that he wants some accessory parts of a true subje…, (a doughty plea indeed, & well worthy such a patrone, as here enters it,) I may much better subjoine, that a convicted Liar, (such as Maister Can both here and elswhere sheweth himselfe to be) wants not some accessarie parts, but some essentiall, of an honest man.
6. At last, remembring himselfe, and returning out of his late raving fitts, to his right witts again; he begins at length to take notice of what he was indeed to replie to; but having no great minde to be doeing with it, he is willing to part with it againe as soone as he cometh at it.
Touching the distinction, saith he, betweene reading the Canons to the people, and not teaching the Errors contained in them I shall leave it as another demand how they can proove that t…ese falsehoods and lies may be read, in the manner that they are, and yet be neither taught nor justified.
You see how soone the man hath done dispatched all in a trice: and h…w soundly he replyeth, and in replying refuteth (for so he should doe) what his answerer hath averred; by demanding of him how he can proove that, that he saith. Though indeed he cutteth the Answerers words of by the halves, and leaveth out that clause, that giveth a full answere to his demand, (his broad language sett aside,) to witt, as declaring what is by their governers required, not as teaching or justifying any errors therein contained.
Fr Iohnson.
Beza saith, though Antichrist teach the trueth, (which sometimes he doeth) to the end he may m…re easily seduce to beleeve his lies, yet we are to stop our eares against him; lest under this pretence we be deceived by him.
VV. Bradshaw.
Well, but it is yet to proove, that our min…sters are Antichrists, and that they teach the trueth to any such wicked intent: the contrarie is manifest; when many of them in regard of the times are content to yeeld to some colourable untrueths, that they may thereby purcha e liberty unto them…elves, to advance the trueth of Christ. They yeeld to some th…ngs in appearance Antichrist…an, that they might with more l…bert…e fight a a…nst Antichrist.
Fr. Iohnson.
Who knoweth not that Antichrist and his ministers are hypocriticall friends to Christ, under the name of C…rist fighting against h…m?
VV. Bradshaw
But who knoweth not that our min…sters, if they be such as our Laws require them to be, are …worne Enemys to Antichrist: and in the name of Christ, and under some of Antichrists own rites, doe fight against him, and resist him unto blood? and who knoweth not, that many of them have died for Christ at the foote of Antichrist.