The Shepherds Wanderings Discovered, Chapter 20
CHAP. XX. In which Mr. Sheppards 68, 69, 70 pages are examined, and his anſwer to our eighth and eleventh objections found too ſhort.
IN the next place you anſwer our Argument drawn from the inconveniencies and evils will come of it.
This you have up p. 68, 70, 71. You divide it and make two objections. I will reply to your anſwers in both places together.
It is my brother Halls twelfth Argument, p. 26. edit. 1. and it is a good Argument, thus formd.
The tree which conſtantly and naturally brings forth corrupt fruit, is a corrupt root. This is our Saviours Logicke, Mat. 7. not to be denied.
But this principle and practice brings forth naturally very corrupt fruit. 1 Pet. 3.16.
Ergo, It is a corrupt root, a plant not of our fathers planting.
The Minor is proved by an induction of particulars:
1. It confounds offices. 2. It breeds diſorder. 3. It opens a doore to errour. 4 It deſtroyes preaching in office, Vindiciae miniſterii, p. 35. 36.and makes it contemptible. The firſt of theſe I u…ge, p. 33, 36. 5. Many of theſe Lay preachers deny Scriptures, Ordinances, Duties, Magiſtrates, Sabbaths, faſtings.
I am ſure the Argument is good enough, if we prove thoſe two things.
1. That naturally, and ordinarily, and neceſſarily thoſe are the fruits.
2. That conſtantly they have been.
The Apoſtle proves the firſt plainly, 1 Pet. 3.16. That the unlearned wreſt the Scriptures to their own deſtruction. Experience proves the latter. Let us heare your cavils.
1. We ſay, Offices are uſurped and confounded by it.
To this you ſay nothing more then you ſaid before: that they doe not preach as officers; thats the ſubſtance of all, and the drift of your ſimilitudes from Bakers and Brewers comes to no more. We anſwer:
1. That you cannot prove any preaching in Scripture, but what was an act of office.
2. If a man bake his own bread, or brew his own beere, I know none hath any thing to ſay to him; but ſuppoſe he bakes for all will buy, what becomes of the bakers office then Sir? this is our caſe. But your ſimilitudes are generally miſerably lame.
3. We told you before, Reading was no proper act of the Preachers office; and therefore you argue miſerably to ſay, becauſe peoples reading the Scripture doth not confound offices, therefore their preaching will not.
4. To what you ſay, that theſe Ordinances rightly uſed may ſtand together, we anſwer, that we deſire you to prove their preaching publiquely to be an Ordinance, and then produce the Scriptures directing to the right uſe of it.
5. For the Tryall you ſay is made, and no ſuch inconveniences appeare. We anſwer you in ſeverall places, ſuch hath appeared: aske the Churches in New England and Holland, &c. I remember Sir, the Fable in Eſop, that the Snake did not preſently ſting him that took it into his boſome. Tell me ſome ſeven yeers hence.
Our ſecond ill conſequence we charged it with, was "That all would then preach, and there would be diſorder, and God is the God of order.
To this you ſay, That all never had, nor will have this guift. Yet you told us before, that all the Saints having the ſpirit dwelling in them, and this ſpirit being a ſpirit of Scripture interpretation, all have this guift, more or leſſe.
2. All are bound to exhort one another privately, and you lay much ſtrength upon that Argument.
3. If all doe but think they have it, it is enough, who ſhall judge? You tell us,
"Order muſt be taken to regulate the exerciſe of it. By what Scrip…ure rule? there is a rule indeed for Church officers being proved, but as you have exempted gifted men from the other rules given to Goſpell preachers, viz. Meditating, giving themſelves wholly to it, making it their worke, ſo ſurely they are exempted from this too; except you produce your rule, the rules about prophecying were applicable in this caſe, which they are not, there is no reſtriction, onelyonly that they ſhall not all doe it together, as if the Bells rung auke.
Beſides (Sir) is not order broke, when one body hath ten or twenty tongues, yea as many as Argus had eyes? the Apoſtle compares the Church to a body naturall; truly it ſhould not be all tongue.
The third ill fruit mentioned was,
That it would be a ready way to let in all Errours and blaſphemies.
To this you reply:
1. You doe not believe it.
Doe you believe Scripture? 2 Pet. 3.16.Superbia ut Auguſtinus veriſſime ait …ſt mater omnium haereſium. Lutherus. Ne…eſſe enim eſt ut prius ſit judicium quam eloquium prius ſapere quam dicere. Eraſmus. Niſi enim verba intelligamus quomodo ſenſam reperiemus? Whitake. de Scrip. q. 5. c. 9 Ʋ. illum ib. ſhewing many pieces of Scripture tranſlated, that according to the tranſlation we cannot anſwer Hereticks. that ſayes the unlearned will wreſt Scriptures; prove it is meant of practicall learning. Do you believe Reaſon? Reaſon will tell you and ſo doth Scripture too. 2 Tim. 6.4. that there are two fathers of Hereſie, Pride, and Ignorance, Pride is a great cauſe of learned mens errours, when men are of crotchicall heads, and then of proud ſpirits, conceited of their own fancies. 2. Ignorance, when men cannot underſtand the Originall or weigh parallell Scriptures, &c. but either wreſt in the leſſer or run mad in Allegories and figures; but you tell us,
"The greateſt learn'd men have been the greateſt hereticks.
It is true many learned men have through pride beene dangerous heretickes, Arrius, Apollinaris, Pelagius, and Socinus were all learned men: but Sir what thinke you of Iohn a Leyden, Knipperdolling, Becold, and many others, and what thinke you in our times of Collier and others?
Will you believe experience? enquire where you heare of any neſts of Ranters, Antinomians, Familiſts, &c. whence they came firſt? ſo that there are others of that opinion beſides Papiſts.
But errours the more publike they are, the leſse harme they will doe.
Pretty Religion! and a pretty argument for an Vniverſall toleration, let Chriſts face be ſpit upon, as much as it will, that his friends may wipe it off; is the Glory of the Lord Jeſus Chriſt no more pretious in your eyes Sir?
'But the Preachers give all leave to Print.
No ſuch matter (Sir) Mr. Batchelor indeed was wont to doe it, but Presbyterian preachers have learn'd Chriſt better, and tender his glory more.
"But the abuſes may be prevented and the right uſe retain'd.
1. That which you call right uſe (Sir) is an abuſe.
Zanchius in quartum praeceptum.2. Zanchy in quartum preceptum gives a good rule, In rebus non neceſſariis ſi modo abutantur, tollendus et uſus & abuſus, every body can ſay as much as this comes to for a Popiſh holiday. There is no neceſſity any ſhould preach without a due call.
But you tell us, p. 70. that to avoid an errour on the left hand, we muſt not run into one on the Right.
Firſt prove it an errour (Sir) to hold, that onelyonly perſons duly called and ſet apart to the office may ordinarily and publikely interpret and apply Scriptures in a conſtituted Church.
You tell us, That we are not to believe and take up all the Evill reports we heare of the people of God, many have been branded for Hereticks who are now in Heaven, &c.
What's this to the purpoſe? (Sir) you dare not deny but there are errours and hereſies, Gal. 5.20 What if Papiſts and heretickes brand the Saints with thoſe names? are therefore none rightly ſo called? what thinke you (Sir) of Pelagians and Socinians and Antitrinitarians, of ſuch as thinke, we are Godded, and there is no Angells, no Devills, no Heaven, no hell, read Jerrard Winſtanly his platforme of Freedome, dedicated to his Excellency, à p. 55. ad. p. 63. and tell me if you thinke him a Saint of God? yet there are not one or two, but one or two thouſand (rather) ſuch in England, moſt of which, if you enquire, you will I believe find either have been Preaching Brethren, or their hearers, and where ever they are met they have a Brother to preach to them; and defie a Miniſter of the Goſpell, &c.
I have heard of ſome that would never believe there were any witches till they or ſome of their friends were bewitched; (Sir) I truſt (If you have any) you have a more vertuous yoke fellow, but if you had a wife that with hearing a Cobler preach for the Community of all things, had beene ſo convinced as to have made her ſelfe common, and have gone from you and joyn'd with a party of thoſe principles, and two or three yeares after come home with a Child or two more then you had ſeene before, (as ſome I could tell you of in the world this day have beene ſerved) you might then poſſibly believe there were Heretickes, and yet theſe perſons were high profeſſors and pretended much to the Spirit.
In the next place, p. 72. you tell us, God will diſcover Hypocrites in …he laſt dayes.
What then? muſt we therefore permit hereſies? or meanes directly tending to them, or would you infer from hence, that in order to this diſcovery gifted men ſhould be permitted to preach.
You ſay, we might as well have reproach'd Chriſt and the Apoſtles, for Judas, Peter, Ananias, and Sapphira, Demas.
You are very unhappy (Sir) at making parallells, you tell us here of a Saint of God under a temptation, and a ſon of perdition and three profane wretches. 2. Nor are Heretickes ſo thin amongſt us as amongſt the Apoſtles. 3. Nor did Chriſt and the Apoſtles uſe a direct meanes to propagate errours, as we argue this would be.
But you tell us, where the ſpirit dwells, it leades into truth and not errrur.
This is truth (Sir) but to what purpoſe? hence I conclude therefore, they that are led by the ſpirit neither lead others into errours, nor are led themſelves, but unlearned preachers doe both, 2 Pet. 3.16.
2. The evill ſpirit may ſometimes lead thoſe into errour in whom the ſpirit dwells, this is a temptation Saints may be under, and it is one ready way to be brought into it, to uſurpe acts of office, and run before they are ſent, when they run out of Gods way the ſpirit of God leaves them.
The fourth ill conſequence we urged was,
That by this means Preachers and preaching in office would he uſeleſſe and contemptible.
To the latter you anſwer:
1. The ſame might have beene ſaid of the Prieſts under the law.
Right; and was it not ſo? ſee Num. 16.3. what Corah, Dathan and Abiram ſay, you take too much upon you, ſeeing all the Congregation are holy every one of them, and the Lord is amongſt them, wherefore then lift up your ſelves aboue the Congregation of the Lord.
2. You ſay you doe not believe it, becauſe you have ſeene the "contrary in your own experience.
None ſo blind as they that will not ſee (Sir) I durſt undertake for one that you can ſhew me, that being a private perſon gifted, and a publike preacher, that yet continues with an humble ſober heart under the aw of Gods ordinances, and honouring the Lords publike officer, I will ſhew you twenty that are either above Ordinances, or ſlighters and contemners of the Miniſters of the Goſpell.
3. You tell us, This is certaine, Thoſe that honour God, God will honour, that's our comfort (Sir) and we doubt not but God will doe it here or hereafter, Dan 12.3. but that is no warrant for our ſpitting on them.
You ſay, This will not make the preachers office leſs uſe… full and neceſſary: for God in his wiſdom and mercy will have ſome, whoſe office it ſhall be to take care of the ſoules of his people, &c.
Right (Sir) God will, but man would not, and what you have here ſaid will be an argument againſt you.
If this be Gods Ordinance and will, ſurely he would not have all uſurp the peculiar acts of his office, as this doth. See my Vindiciae Miniſterii, p. 96 37.