Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 9

Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker · Book 2 · Chapter 9

p. 251CHAP. IX.

The Arguments of Mr. R. for a Ministerial Church from Matth. 18. are vindicated from the Exceptions of Mr. Hooker.

MR. H. If Christ allude to the Synedry, then must Mat. 18. Par. 1. c. 10. p. 130.be expounded of a Presbyterial Church. Mr. H. both Proposition and Assumption is denied.

Ans. Mr. H. leaps from one Book to another. I no Mr. R. argument, Mat. 18. from allusion unto the Jewish Sanhedrim abused, not answered.Matt 18where frame an Argument from a meer allusion: but so, if Christ so allude to an authoritative company, that hath power of binding and loosing, as the Jewish Sanhedrim in this Mat. 18. then he judgeth the Church, Mat. 18. to be a Juridical Church.

2. Its a poor Argument, he alludes not to the Jewish Synagogue, because that Synagogue had no power of Excommunication, as this Church Mat. 18. hath, saith he: but can there be no allusion to a Iudicature, except the one, to which allusion is made, and that of which the present speech is, have the like power? Then cannot the Scripture allude to earthly Princes, who place their greatest Courtier upon the right hand, because earthly Princes have not the like power with the Father of Jesus Christ. This destroys all allusions, which abound in the Scripture; as Paul, Rom. 10. 18. alludes to the Sun; Malachi compareth Gospel-worship to the burning of Incense, chap. 1. shall it then follow, that the one is of the nature of the other? That allusions bring little light, is said without ground; for they being grounded upon Metaphors often, which bring light, must bring much light.

3. That Synagogues had no power to excommunicate, seems to bring darkness, and not light. The contrary is Iob. 9. p. 252and 16. Though they abused that Ordinance.

Mr. H. Its in vain to send the plaintiff to a general Councel, he might be dead before he be relieved, and the Councel be gathered.

Ans. We send no man by a loup to a General Councel, but the grieved man may appeal to the nearest Judicature; and Mr. H. will have him to loup to a General Councel at the first, being accused of a scandal, which declares, that he would elude all the Government of Christ, between him and that Judicature.

2. We do not maintain any Appeals whatsoever, but onelyonly M R. is not for all appeals whatsoever, justor unjust, but for such as are edifying and necessary, and relieves from tyrannicall oppression the plaintiff.righteous Appeals. Illud tantum p…ssumus, quod jure possumus.

3. So may the plaintiff be buried before a Synod, by way of consultation, may be had; the wayes of Discipline, a… all Christs ordinary wayes in the Gospel, may possibly never take effect in those to whom the word is a savour of death unto death, but that doth not nullifie an Ordinance of God.

Mr. H. Our Saviour, Mat. 18. points at a standing Tribunal of such a Church as is at hand, whereof both parties were members.Pag. 131.

Ans. Its a perverting of the words of Christ, Mat. 18. that The removing of scandals, Mat. 18. cannot be of onelyonly scandals between brother and brother of the same congregation, except I must not owne as brethren to be gained, those of another Church beside me.Matt 18no man trespassing, whom I must endevour to gain, can be my brother, but he who is a member of the same congregation of which I am a member. This is to renounce and quit all brotherly communion with all Churches on earth, but onelyonly that single congregation of which I am a member; when not one brother, but twenty or many Churches of brethren without the congregation, as false brethren of Iudea trespass against Antioch by perverse doctrine, Act. 15. there is not a Judicature a… hand, hath Christ provided to tell no Church, and left no remedy to remove the greatest of scandals?

Mr. H. How could a Church in an Island, or the first Church at Jerusalem, Act. 1. 23. exercise discipline upon an offender upon this ground?

Ans. Why not? since the purpose of Christ is, That every Church, even the less of one hundred and twenty, Acts 1. p. 253and the greater of ten thousands, Act. 2. & 4. & 6. should respectively purge themselves; and when association of many Christ willeth every little congregation to exercise discipline upon an offender, Ergo, there is no discipline to be exercised in a greater Church. So Mr. H. But the contrary rather strongly followeth.Churches about shall be, they should also purge those without the congregation. Scandals fall out where many meetings are, and one onelyonly Presbytery over them, as Mr. H. granteth: to which of the meetings shall: the plaintiffs complain? The offenders are of divers Meetings or Churches that are not at hand.

Mr. H. The Sanhedrim is a mixt Iudicature, partly of Ecclesiastical, partly of Civil Iudges, Deut. 17. 12. 2 Chron. 19. Ergo, allusion cannot be made thereunto.

Ans. The Consequence is naught.The Sanhedrim was not mixed by institution.

2. Mr. H. with the Prelates, confound the Judicatures, but they are clearly distinguished, while one is appointed for the matters of the King another for the matters of the Lord, 2 Chron. 19. 11. So are they distinguished, The Priest or the Judge, not the Priest and the Judge, Diut. 17. 12. Men might sinsully confound them; but sin is no institution of the Lord.

Mr. H. Arg. 2. The Church of believers is that which meets for prophecying and for praying: but this, Mat. 18. especially for binding and loosing, and censures. Mr. H. The Church of believers is assembled mainly for prophecying and praying, yet not onelyonly, but for censures also, the Word being ended.

Ans. That is indeed in question, That men, women and children meet ordinarily every Lords-day for to act in all Ordinances; and after Sermon to leed witness, binde and loose, and that under the notion of believers, for neither here, nor in Scripture, is there warrant for this.

Mr. H. Arg. 3. The Church Mat. 18. is such a superiour and judicial Seat, as is to be obeyed in the Lord, under the pain of excommunication: But a multitude of believers are not such a seat. So Mr. R. Mr H. The Major is the question, and the Conclusion is to be proved, whether a particular congregation be the highest Tribunal, or the classical Church: and Mr. R. takes one part of the Conclusion to pr…ve the other: If the congregation be not highest, then the classical must be. The Minor should have been proved, not nakedly propounded.

p. 254Ans. I propound a Syllogism, and for answer to the minor, Mr. H. transforms my Argument, which I dreamed not of, and sayes, I take one part of the conclusion to prove the other, If the congregation be not highest, then the classis is. But, Sir, that is not one part of the conclusion to prove another; but since you bring it, its a lawful Syllogism, Either the congregation or the classis is the highest Tribunal: But not the congregation. Yet this is Mr. H. Arg. not mine.

The Church Mat. 18. is such a superiour seat, as is to be obeyed, as being over us in the Lord, &c. But no Scripture, no Pauls Presbyt. c 8. p. 88. The Church, Mat. 18. is to be obeyed in the Lord by the people, but the Church of the people is not to be obeyed in the Lord by the people.Matt 18Divine in the world saith, That the multitude of believers (I use not there the term Congregational Church at all) is such a superiour Seat, that is over the Guides, and whom the Guides do obey in the Lord, or disobey under the pain of Excommunication. This minor of mine is not nakedly propounded. The Scripture saith, the officers are over the multitude of believers in the Lord, 1 Thess. 5. 12, 14. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 17. But the contrary is never said; they do not awake that say, this is to take one part of a conclusion to prove the other; for its a conclusion proved by a medium, that is no part, neither subject nor attribute of the conclusion.

Mr. H. Arg. 4. of Mr. R. Whatever the Church may excommunicate, every member thereof convened with the Church may inflict all inferiour censures.

But all the members cannot inflict lesser punishment; for neither women, nor aged children, nor the unofficed brethren, can rebuks, exhort, or, by the Word, openly convince the officers. Ans. The consequence is feeble, as appears from the nature of delegated power, which is committed by Christ to persons capable thereof, which women for their sex, children for the want of the exercise of understanding, cannot do. People have power to choose officers, therefore women have power to put in their voices. The Body of a Corporation may put out a Major upon desert; therefore women and children may do it. No, the wise God hath included the votes of women in the male.

Ans. Nay, but Mr. H. shall not so elude the Argument. Whatsoever the judging, binding and loosing Church of believers may do, that every member of the joynt community may p. 255do, in collegio, if the Keyes be given to them (as Mr H. and Mr. Cotton say) as actual believers, giving Peters confession, Mat. 16. and therefore Mr. H. too suddenly sayes, The consiquence (he would have said the major, for its a lawful Syllogism) is feeble; for women, children, sons come to ag… servants, which he left out, are formal and essential parts of the believing Church, to whom the Keyes are given as to the first subject. If the Keyes be not given to them as confessing and professing believers, because not to women, sons, servants, then not to all confessing and professing believers, as such; then not to all blessed, as taught by a teacher above flesh and blood, as Peter was, Mat. 16. This shall cross the Principles of our Brethren (& the Truth and Scripture cannot but cross them) nor can it be denied, but women, sons come to age, servāts, are no less members of that Church, than the multitude of male-believers, for they confess Christ, as Peter, are blessed, and built on the Rock, as well as Peter, and are no less conceived in charity, to have some spi…l good in them, as Mr. H. dictates, cap. 2. par. 1, 15, 16. and these must be visible Saints to whom Mr. H. his definition of visible Saints agrees; and therefore our brethren must either quit the principles they follow, or then a multitude of believers of visible Saints must be larger than the actual binding and loosing Church, Mat. 18. and against their will this, Tell the Church, must be understood of, Tell some believers onelyonly, (if they will) The Officers; but, Tell not women, nor sons, nor servants, for they are no part of the binding and loosing Church; and, If he hear not the Church; that is, as the Hebraism there, If he obey not the Church, if he obey not some believers Men, and Heads of Families, not women, servants, …ons, Let him be to thee as a publican, &c.

2. So woman are either not capable of believing and visible Women are as essential parts of the believing Church as men, and wom…n must no more blindly believe what the Church believes, than men; nor must their faith in discerning the voice of Christ in this pastor, not in this, be blindly included in the males discerning and so women must be a part of the binding and loosing Church, Mat. 18.Matt 18Saintship, which none can say; or they are not capable of a power of binding and loosing: and so a power capable of binding and loosing is not given to the multitude of believers, as the Church, Mat. 18.

p. 2563. Nor are women, sons, servants, debarred from voicing in Election, because it is a Church-power, for it is no power of jurisdiction. For

1. Their tacit voices and consents are not excluded, because they must try the spirits, & not upon trust, & fide implicitâ believe every teacher more than men, or believe as the Church believes, more than their husbands, nor must they take Doctrines as truth: upon their husbands word; not are women so excluded from speaking in the Church, as they may upon no occasion confess their faith.

2. Profess vocally repentance.

3. Depose as Witnesses.

4. Accuse the guilty before the binding Church.

4. Nor may a Corporation cast out a Major by an authoritative power, such as binding and loosing is, Mat. 18.

5. We seek a warrant why the votes of women in choosing their Pastors, must more be included in the votes of the male, than their being essential parts of the redeemed Church is included in the males, or their confessing publickly, that Jesus is the Christ, as many women Martyrs, and sons and servants have gloriously done; and yet their confession of Christ to the death must be personal, and not included in the confession of husband or parents, as Mat. 10. 32.

Mr. H. Arg. 5. of Mr. R. Those to whom the essence and definition Survey, par. 1. c. 10. p. 133.of a Ministerial Church, having power to excommunicate, doth belong; those and those onelyonly are understood under the Name of the Church, Mat. 18. But the essence and definition of a Ministerial Church, having power to excommunicate, doth not necessarily belong to a great company of believers assembled Churchwise.

Ans. Both propositions may be denied. Neither a Church without officers, nor as having them, is here onelyonly understood; but the second sense is here firstly attended. For both people and Elders have their power, parts and places in a right order and manner; when its said, a Ministerial Church is here understood, Ministerial notes either Ministers without the body exclusively, and that is false, or Ministers with the body inclusively. Now a Ministerial Church in the fairest sense aims at both. In the first sense, p. 257the proposition is false; in the second it doth not conclude to whom the essence and definition of a Ministerial, i. e. of a Church of Ministers, without the body, having power to excommunicate, doth necessarily belong: These and these onelyonly are here understood. This Mr. R. l. 1. p. 226. refu…eth.The Church principally meant Mat. 18. must be the binding and loosing brethren which are the Church fi…st…y, the officers are onelyonly separable adjuncts thereof, saith M. H. Par. 1. c. 11. p. 198.Matt 18

Ans. Well then Mr. H. denies the conclusion; then both a Ministerial Church, and a Church of Redeemed, meeting to partake of Ordinances, have their part here: Ergo, women have their part here.

2. If a Church in both s…nses be here understood when all the Officers turn grievous Wolves, Socinians, Papists, Familists, such as say they are Apostles, and do li…; then

1. Must the people that are stumbled complain to themselves. This is not just, to make the complaining party (saith M. H.) judge. What if they unjustly complain, and say their officers are Presbyterial and Prelatical, and are Legal Preachers, and preach neither Christ nor Free-grace, then hath Christ ordained them whose lips preserve not knowledge, to be the onelyonly judging and first Church, which hath power to excommunicate, to be the When all the office…s turne wolves, the people must complain to the people, & when the people turn Familists, Socinians &c. to whom s…a…l the officers complain, acco…ding to M. H. minde?first and onelyonly Judges-of sound Doctrine, and Heresie in officers. And suppose the Church of people and officers be here firstly understood; we cannot complain of the Familist people (of which there were too many in N…E.) to the Elders, for the same reason.

2. Nor is it true, that people and Elders (the people must in judging be first, by Mr. H.) have their power, parts and place in this work, for all Elders and people have equally a decisive voice, except women, and children, and se…vants; and by what reason they want votes, a reason … yet is not heard of.

3. There is no reason that binding and loosing may be transacted by onelyonly a power of judgement in people, for then a The officers cannot binde potestate officii, since the Keys were given to the Malechurch, before the officers had being, as M H saith.power of office is accidental to binding and loosing, how then can a society with both power of judgement and of office be understood here firstly? as Mr. H. saith. Therefore I ask a reason, why officers, who are meer adjuncts, such a… come in at the by, and as latter in nature, power, and operation to the visible Church, should have any hand in binding and loosing, since all officers are made and unmade, ordained and cast out by the male-Church, by this way?

p. 2584. Nor can the officers binde and loose as officers, nor hath Christ given this power to the officers as officers, by this way of our Brethren. For they say,

1. That the Keyes were given to Peter, Mat. 16. as to a believer, not as to an officer.

2. Officers to them are but adjuncts of the visible Church, and the Keyes are given to the visible Church before they have officers, and the people may make and excommunicate them.

3. Here is strange work! the Keyes were not given to Peter as an officer, but as a believer, and yet he useth the Keyes as an officer.

4. The Church is not made Ministerial by us, without the body exclusively wholly (for Christs Government is voluntary) nor ought any new thing to be concluded in our Assemblies, while the people hear of it: for if the Romans used rogare & suadere legem, and obtain the consent of the people thereunto, far more are they not to be acknowledged as Church-laws, that are to be obtruded upon the godly against their will and knowledge; and much more if they be against the Word of God, and former godly acts with consent agreed unto by the Church; that is, whether the people consent or not, but yet without the body, whether they exercise acts of jurisdiction or not, for no act of jurisdiction is due to them; and to exclude the consent of women, no less interessed in practise of conscience than men, is to be Lords of their faith.

Mr. H. The sixth argument refers to former proofs, &c.

Ans. And Mr. R. refers to former Replies.

Mr. H. Its evidently false, that there can be no complaint to a multitude; for complaints may be made to a Parliament.

Ans. How can complaints be made to ten thousand of the We cannot tell the church of Jerusalem or Galatia, by M. H.Church of Ierusalem, for that Church, as Mr. H. grants, pag. 128, 129. met in sundry places, not in one: No Parliament or Judicature consisteth of such a number. We cannot complain to the many Churches of Galatia of their wicked tenet of Justification by Works, for they are scattered in divers societies, and its unlawful (say our Brethren) to meet in their officers to exercise jurisdiction.

Mr. H. Arg. 8. The house of Cloe complained to Paul. p. 2592. Paul gives rules about the Elders receiving of complaints.

Ans. That house complained to Paul, because his Apostolick Authority might have been helpful, but they might have complained to any of the Church of Corinth. Paul advises Titus to hear complaints, to prepare them for the Church. 3. If the people must consent tacitly to the censures, before they be dispensed they must hear the complaints.

Ans. Paul gives rules and directions to Timothy, 1 Tim. 5. 19. v. 1. and Titus, cap. 2. as to pastors, not as to believers, concerning the manner of receiving complaints, nor is there in Scripture, Precept, Promise or practise of believers to receive Women have no less a tacit consent, a faith of practise in eschewing the society of the excommunicated, in admitting of him again, and of all members, & in election of officers, than men, and in other duties recommended to Churchmembers.complaints, we are surer than our Brethren; and its safer to expound thi, Tell the Church, that is, Tell Timothy and the Elders; then, Tell the Church, that is, Tell any member of the Church at Co…inth, i. e. Tell any woman, or servant, for they are as essentially members as Timothy or any of the Elders: 2. and must joyn their consent to censures, because members must hear the scandals, because they must tacitly consent before censures be dispensed, it follows not that members must be told; for the tacit consent of women is requisite, for they may be scandalized or edified by the good or evil dispensing of censures as well as men.

2. They may not converse with excommunicate persons more than men.

3. Their consciences must not be Lorded over more than the consciences of men, in the dispensing of censures.

4. They must have a vote tacit or formal in choosing of a Pastor, and must not take him blindly; and complaints to women, sons, servants, yea, and the precepts of withdrawing, Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 6, 10. 2 Th…ss. 3 14. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3. 10. Ioh. 10. 11. oblige the consciences of women, sons and servants, then women may receive witness against Elders; as well as Timothy, 1 Tim. 5. 19 20. but with such qualifications and limitations. For Mr H. maintains this connexion, Complaints may be made unto the Church (Tell the Church, Mat. 18.) to all, without whose tacit consent there can be no proceeding to excommunication. But without womens consent there is no Excommunication, no Admission, no Election, Responde it a, vol non.

p. 260Mr. H. The people may censure heretical Elders in an Island.

Ans. So they may in justa tutela aeterna salutis, but not by the power of the Keyes.

2. And so may the Elders, remaining godly and sound, remove with the Tabernable and Candlestick from a people in an Island, if they dance to the golden Calf, and be incorrigible: Yea, if the Elders and men in an Island turn Familists, and the women, sons, servants remain sound, Let Mr. H. shew what the sounder part of the Church may do. And though women be forbidden authoritatively to teach in the Church, 1 Tim. 2. 7. Let M. H. shew how women are all excluded from Church duties in their way, more than men.1 Cor. 14. and publickly, yet they may teach the younger women, Tit 2. 2, 3. give a seasonable rebuke and counsel to men, 2 Sam. 20. 16, 17. 1 Sam 25. 23, 24, 32, 33. and a woman a sister is to labour to gain a sister, by Matth. 18. and that in a Church-way; and women, as other Church-members, are to teach, exhort, warn, according to their place, as well as men, Col. 3. 16. Rom. 15. 14. 1 Thess. 5. 14. Heb. 3. 13 & 20. 25. Let M. H. teach us how their faith is included in the men in these duties, in consenting that a savoury man, not an Heretick, be their pastor.

Mr. H. Arg. 9. That Church is here understood to whom the Keyes are given, Mat. 16. but they are given onelyonly to a Classical Church. Ans. The minor is barely affirmed.

Ans. My Argument is divided: The minor is not barely affirmed. The Keyes are given to Peter, as representing Elders and Apostles, to whom Christ saith, Iohn 20. Whose sins ye forgive, they are forgiven; to whom he said, As my Father sent me, so I send you: but this official sending is most undue to the people; and its equivalent to that Mat. 28. Go, teach and baptize. But Christ said not to unofficed Brethren, Receive the So Cypr. Juban. Epist. 73. pag. 22. Nam Petro primum Dominus super quem adificavit Ecclesiam—Mat. 16. Istaem potestatem (clavium) dedit—& post resurrectionem—sicut me misit pater, &c. Firmilian. ad Cypr. Epist. 75. Cypr. pag. 239. n. 14. Hinc intelligi potest quod soli Petro Christus dixerit, quemcunque ligaveritis, Matth. 16, &c. Quando in solos Apostolos insufflavit Christus dicens, accipite Spiritum Sanctum, &c.Matt 16holy Ghost; Whose sins ye forgive, &c. Go, teach and baptize. So Cyprian.

p. 261Mr. H. Arg. 10. of Mr. R. The onelyonly apparent argument against this interpretation is weak, and therefore this sense hath ne strength.

Ans. Both parts fail: 1. There may be other Reasons given. 2. It doth not follow, that the different sense is clear, because many better Reasons haply may be rendred, than were alledged. Mr. Ball according to his sagacity and sharpness of dispute, seeketh far and wide where to finde, where the word Church noteth onelyonly the Elders, but all cometh to this, One may suppose such a sense.

Ans. 1. Mr. H. denies the Antecedent and the Consequence, The word Church can signifie no other, but the ruling Church Mat. 18. and the notation of the word Church in our brethrenssense is neither Mat. 18. nor elsewhere. See how Bilson, Perpetual G ve n. c. 4. mistakes in this.Matt 18and proves both to be false with the same Argument, Because many better Reasons may haply be given; which is bad Logick: for other Reasons may be given (and Separatists, Morellius, Anabaptists, and Prelatical men have besieged, but never taken in this Text) but if this be the onelyonly seeming and apparent reason given for popular jurisdiction, yea or that can be given, the consequence is not proved by Mr. H. his Adverb haply, which implies No as well as I. And when Mr. R. saith, the Reasons against our sense are Sophisms, its not an answer to say, I. but stronger arguments haply may be rendred by others, such as never were alledged before. What if one should say stronger Reasons and clearer Scriptures yet than ever have been alledged, may haply be rendred for unwritten Traditions, Image worship, Praying to the Dead? Papists should be little stronger than they are.

2. The Argument is but this:

If the word Church in all the Scriptures so often mentioned, be never taken for the Elders onelyonly, it a strong suspicion it is not so taken in this place, Matth. 18. But the word Church—is such.

1. The major is denied. All the judiciou… Interpreters finde a word onelyonly in this sense in this place, and that it cannot bear sense according to the analogie of faith, but in this sense onelyonly, as scope, matter and circumstances of the place inforce; and yet the same word must be otherwise taken in many other places: And when all is done, the conclusion of the apparent reason amounts but to a suspicion; and Mr. H. of his own addes the qualification of strong suspicion, and Mr. R hath leave upon better grounds to adde, that his own suspicion is weak.

p. 262Mr. H. wrongs that eminently learned and godly man, Mr. Ball, who proves the Elders here must be meant, and no other Church, and Mr. H. touches not with one finger his reasons.

2. I retort the Argument. If the word Church of the Redeemed meet to partake of all Ordinances, Word, Seals, Censures, &c. often mentioned in Scripture, be never taken for Brethren onelyonly, excluding believing women, sons come to age of 15 or 16 years, which are the far larger number of the Redeemed, confederate, visible Church, called, sanctified, as 1 Cor. 1. 1. 2 Cor. 1. 1. Eph. 1. 1. Col. 1. 2. 1 Thess. 1. 1. 2 Thess 1. 1, &c. then can it not be so taken, Mat. 18. and the Assumption must be as strong, That the word Church in this sense is destitute of the least loving look of the allowance of any Text, that might be a second in the field; as is the Rhetorication, in place of Disputation of Mr. H. therefore we desire a parallel place for the acception o… the word Church or onelyonly male-Church of Redeemed meeting for all Ordinances.

Mr. H. answers not, when he tells us, that Women for their sex, and children for want of the exercise of understanding, are excluded from governing.

Ans. That is another question, whether they be excluded from Though women, children of age, and servants, be excluded from governing, yet the question now is a farre other thing, Whether the word Church, Mat. 18. if it be the Church of Redeemed ones meeting to and for publick ordinances in the same place, include not women, &c.Matt 18governing from this, what is the notation of the word Church, Mat. 18. and whether women, children come to age, and servants, be not essential parts, and the far larger part of the Church of believors, fed, redeemed, of the Church which Chr…st hath instituted in the Gospel—that is, (saith the Discipline of N. E.) of a combination of faithful godly persons, meeting for that end, to partake of all the Ordinances of God in one place-built on the Rock, Mat. 16. If such a signification of the word Church be not in all the Scripture, is not this to have in the bag a stone & a stone, when we say, Tell the Church—and if he hear not the Church, Mat. 18. is the Church-meeting in one place for hearing the Word, receiving the seals, professing the faith of Peter built upon the Rock, which essentially includes women, aged children, servants, but yet Tell the Church, is not Tell the women, aged children and servants, for they are excluded from governing (say they) true, but they are not excluded from being members of the Church, p. 263Mat. 18. which in its proper signification (as our Brethren say) signifieth only this redeemed visible Church built on the rock meeting in one place, &c.

3. The word Church, foreign, must in Scripture be restricted to the subject matter and the end, wherefore the convention The word foreign, Church, is ever taken in Scripture according to the subject matter and scope of the place, and so must the binding and loosing, or excommunicating Church, Matth. 18. be taken, and cannot note a company of redeemed ones, Men, Women, Servants, Children of riper age come together in one to partake of Word, Seals, Censures, the onelyonly acception of the Word Church that our brethren can give us from Scripture.Matt 18is instituted; and seldom is it taken, but it excludes some such, as Act. 19. it cannot signifie the Church of Christ, but a civil tumultuary meeting. The town Clerk dismissed the Church.

2. Eph. 5. 26. Christ loved his Church, and gave himself for her. The Church there is such a Catholick body visible, or invisible, as he shall present without spot or wrinkle, and excludeth rotten members professors, as Magus, who are no more but visible members, but includeth all real Saints, Men, Women, Infants, Jews, Gentiles, &c.

3. It notes these who convene in the same place to be fed with Word, Seals, Censures, Act. 11. 26. a whole year they assemble with the Church, 1 Cor. 14 4. he that prophecieth, edifieth the Church. It must exclude Infants, who though members of the visible Church, yet cannot be edified by prophecying: but cannot but include Women, more aged children and servants: and say there were but one place in all the World, where the Church came together for the hearing of the Word, receiving of the Lords Supper, that one place were sufficient to teach what the word Church notes in that place. And so here, Mat. 18. is the like case.

4. Tell the Church must be, tell the Church that hath power to bind and loose on earth, and which if the offender hear not, he must be declared a heathen; but this is neither women, children, nor servants, by our Brethren.

2. The binding and loosing here is to be expounded of the specifick acts of office, never given to any by other Scriptures, but only to officers, 2 Thes. 5. 12, 14. Luke 10. 16. Heb. 13. 17. 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 17, 20. Act, 20. 28. Rom. 12. 7, 8. Mat. 16. 17. p. 2641 Pet. 5. 1, 2. Tit. 2. 5. Ioh 21. 15. Ephes. 4. 11, 12. Is. 6. 5. Ier. 3. 15.

5. Tell the Church, if he hear not the Church: shall be by us gladly expounded of both Rulers and Professors in their own The Church, Matth. 18. & 1 Cor. 5. includes all who meet for the publick worship, Elders, Men, Women, Servants, aged Children, every one according to their place, according as Paul rebukes, comforts, teaching in his Epistle, 1 Cor. 1.Matt 181 Cor 51 Cor 1kind.

1. Let him be to thee as a Heathen, that is, to the whole Church, women and servants, by withdrawing from his company. Pu…ge out, all ye who have been puffed up and mourned not, and such were women, and so men also to whom he writeth. 1 Cor. 1. 1. And women were a part of the lump in danger to be infected; and upon that hazard were not to eat & drink with an excommunicated man, 1 Cor. 5. 6, 12. and were not to be mixed, but to eschew scandalous persons, 2 This. 3. 14 Rom. foreign Rom. 16. foreign.Rom 1616. 17. nor receive such a man unto their house, nor bid him God speed, 2 Ioh 10. 11. Tit. 3. 10. which the women were to do one way, and the Elders another way. So 2 Cor. 2. 7. Ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him. Sure women, children of age, and servants, to whom he writes, were to forgive, in their way, for to them he determined to come, 2 Cor. 1. 15. They were a part of his rejoycing. v. 14. they were anointed, established, sealed The women in their daily practice are concerned in conscience to censent unto, or dissent from the sentence of excommunication, or forgiving and readmiting again, and that upon rules of the Gospel as well as men.by the Spirit, v. 21, 22. as well as the men and Elders. And say the word of confirming their love, were an authoritative word, as it is; Yet it is so, as applied to the Elders, not as applied to women. As the same word of Worshipping relating to Iehovah is a religious adoring, relating to David is civil reverence, 1 Chr. …9. 21. The people bowed their heads, & worshipped the Lord and the King, 1 Sam. 12. 18 All the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel. Though they were two really distinct actions. And this cannot be denied by Mr. H. who gives to the Elders an official power of jurisdiction, to the Brethren a judicial power of judgment; Ergo, they excommunicate not one and the same way.

6. Yes, and Paul writes to Timothy, not as to a Christian simply, but as to a Pastor representing the company of Elders (as Christ speaks to Peter, Mat. 16.) as to a Pastor to take heed to Doctrine and reading, 1 Tim. 4. 14, 16. What Widows, 1 Tim 5. 9. What Watchmen, 1 Tim. 3. 1, 2. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. p. 2655. 17, 22. What Deacons, 1 Tim. 3. 10, 11. there should be in the Church. How he should rebuke, preach. Now this way the people should be warned, how to preach, how to rebuke, not to lay on hands suddenly, to save themselves and others by preaching, if they have a joint power of ruling with officers. It is true he writes to Timothy as to a Christian, to flee the lusts of you h…, but in order to the Ministry, that he may be an example to the flock, 2 Tim. 2. otherwise women, children come to age, servants, are to flee lusts, and to follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, &c. yet they are to exercise no jurisdiction.

7. Tell the Church, cannot bear this, as Mr. H. would say, tell first the Church of Officers and people, when the officers are too ordinarily grievous wolves, seducers, blind guides, Idol-shepherds, Act. 20. 29. Mat. 7. 15. 2 Pet. 2. 1, 2. 1 Iohn 4. 1. Rev. 2. 14 20. Tit 3. 10. Ier. 23. 9, 15. Ier. 14. 14, 15. Isa. 56. 10, 11. Mich. 3. 5, 6. Zach 11. 8, 15, 16. Then must the keys and power of binding and loosing be firstly in the people, not in the officers who are separable adjuncts (as our brethren say) the garments of the Church, not parts of the Church, as garments are not parts of a man.

Lastly, Mr. H. cannot build his new house, but by raising the foundation stones of all our worthy Protestant Divines, and Fathers, Caelv. Inst. l. 3. c. 4. sec. 12. Instit. l. 4. c. 1. sec. 2. Instit. l. 4. c. 12. sec. 2. l. 4. 9. 2. Pet. Martyr, 1 Cor. 8. Dav. Parens in explic. catech. q. 85. Art. 4. Obj. 1. p. 480, 484. Com. …n Mat. 18 Gul. Buc…n. loc. com. de potest. Eccles. & Syno. lo. 43. q. 25. Dan. Tilenus Synt. dis. 30. de Concil. Th. 4. 9…. …, 23. Profess. Leyd. Synop. purio. Theolo. diso. 49. thes 10. pag. 779. Ioan. Pisc. com. in Ma…th. …8. 15 d Eccles. lo. 23. thes. 73. Willet Syn. Papis. con. 3. Gen. Conc. 4. 7. pag. 140, 141. B…za in …n. Mat. c. 18. Trem. lius in vers. Syr. Mat. 16. 19, 20. Iunius dis. 47. De Discip. Eccles. th. …. th. 6. Ioan. Comerio Tract. in quo Eccles. Roman. p…ae exam. c. 17. pag. 567. Anton. Walaeus To. 1. defunct. Eccles. pag. 467. Wende…n Theol. l. 1. c. 28. fig. VII. q. 1. pag. 622, 623.1 Cor 8Matt 18Matt 16:19Matt 16:20who prove that the Pope should hear the general Council from Matth. 18. So Chrysost. hom. 85. in Ioan. Orig. hom. 7. in Ezek. August Ssrm. 49. de ver. domini. Cyprian. Iewel Apolo. c. 8. div. 2. page 55. Tho. Mort. Appel. Protest. l. 4. c. 2. sect. 8. page 451. 452. Aene. Sylv. in Gest. Conc. Basil. fol. 5. 51. Rom. Pont. non audist Eccles. Christum non audiet. And Riv. Catho. Ortho. To 1. Tract. 1. q. 8. Papists that are sounder, as Gerson, Almain, Occum, Cusanus, Contaren…s, Ca…etanus, Ferus, Toletus, Menochius, Maldonatus, &c. say the Pope is a Brother, and ought to hear the Church.

p. 266Mr. H. The Angel of the Church of Ephesus stands for the whole Church. saith Mr. R.

Ans. See how strangely shall that sound, To the Angel of the Church of Ephesus, i. e. To the Church of the Church of Ephesus.

Ans. This is a poor consequence, it is known there are often two Tropes in one word. The word Angel being put for many What is ment by the Angel of the Church, Rev. 2. Mr. H. his conceit removed.Rev 2Angels, as Didoclavius and other learned Authors from Psal. 34 7. prove. And then these many overseers are put for the Church, and rebuked in the people, and the people in them. When an Embassador speaks to the Parliament, he speaks to England, and when he speaks to the Speaker, he speaks to the Parliament. Will it follow, the Embassador speaks to England of England? A headless conceit, and such quirks make a cause to be suspected; so when one offended tells the Church, he but tells the brethren of the Church; and this is the Church of the Rob Parker. de Politia Eccles. l. 3. c. 15. n. 1. Ex his qui eluctari, capit nobiscum, sentire necesse est Ecclesiam fidelium à Christo intellectam esse (Mat. 18.) non quia simpliciter consideratur, sed quia disciplinam exercet juxta temperamentum Aristocraticum in Presbyterio, Ecclesiam quippe primo loco dic Ecclesiae praecise partem Aristocraticam, id est, Presbyterium existimamus, quae vero posteriore his verbis, Si Ecclesiam non audietit, &c. sic excommunicantem propter contemptum Ecclesiam, includit, & non decernentem tantum & examinantem, tum & partem Ecclesiae Democraticam continet, quâ populi consensus ad excommunicationem necessarius est.Sir 50:3Matt 18Church. And if women, sons, servants be excluded, as Mr. H. excludes them, then he tells the Church of the Church.

Mr. Parker, though not far from our Brethrens way, hath said the very same; for which Mr. H. refuteth Mr. R. And if Mr. Parker shews my mind in that, when Mr. H. refutes therein M. Parker, I yield; but he contradicts Mr. Parker.

Mr. H. It is said Acts 18. 22. Paul saluted the Church at Jerusalem, it cannot be thought in reason, that the Elders only were saluted; because the scope of Paul was to confirm the hearts of the Disciples, and therefore had an eye to the weakest, and those that wanted his sweet refreshing, who heard of his arrival, and assembled to give comfortable entertainment to him, and to be comforted by him.

Ans. The Argument must then be thus, if any: Paul saluted and kissed (for so is the original word) as many as he confirmed and encouraged in the way of grace at Ierusalem. But p. 267he confirmed in that way, all and every one, man, woman, servants, rich, poor; Ergo, he kissed them all, and saluted them all. Let Mr. H. see to the conclusion, it is all his own.

2. The Argument is not brought to prove that the word Church there noteth precisely only the Elders. Nor does Mr. R. alledge it upon that account precisely; but that the word Church may note some eminent professors, and note a Church of all, men, women, children, yea the thousands who meet in The place Act. 18. 22. Paul saluted the church is wronged by M. H.Acts 18:22sundry places, by the grant of Mr. H. came not out to meet Paul, and were saluted of him; for to be saluted, was but a matter of courtesie, though Christian, but to be comforted and confirmed in the faith is another thing.

Mr. H. The word Church in the Hebrew and Greek used by the Septuagint, notes the Rulers of the Church, not always the body; and it is granted without any hurt to our cause.

Ans. Since the signification of words, and of the word The word Church is not in scripture, as our brethren take it. Nor is there a place in Old or New Testament, or in any Divines, imaginable for the sole male-Church.Church, as Moses and the Prophets use them, is frequently followed in the New Testament by the Evangelists and Apostles; it is clear, our Saviour, Mat. 18. departed not from the received signification of the words in the Old Testament used by the Septuagint. And so the word, Tell the Church, hath a better warrant to be expounded. Tell the Rulers, then, tell all the faithful men, women, children, and servants; therefore the suspicion is so strong, as Mr. H. said, that there is no parallel Text for this signification of a male-Church excluding women and officers, who may excommunicate all officers; and whereas he so much contends for the signification of the word Church, Let him answer what is meant there, 1 Cor. 11. 16. If any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of Christ. If the meaning be, that the congregations meeting in the same place, contend not among themselves; what if they so should do? who should right them, by our Brethrens way? and if that be the Church that meets in one place onelyonly, when shall the Church Catholick which Christ loved, and gave himself for, meet? not until the day of Judgement? and did the Brethren testifie of the charity of Gaius, 2 Ioh. 16 before the Church, was that in the convened together congregation? or was it not before the men of the Church? And 1 Cor. 11. p. 268When ye … together to the Church, Was not this to the meeting of men and women, except women be debarred from the Lords Supper? And when Saul made havock of the Church, he must persecute only the binding and loosing Church; but the Scripture saith, he persecuted both men and women, Act. 8. 3. & 9. 2.

Mr. H. Arg 11. The Church which the Plaintiff must tell, is to admonish publickly the offender. But this is the Church of Elders, 1. Thes, 5. 12. 13. 1 Tim. 5. 20. Luk. 10. 16. for they onelyonly are to receive publick complaints, Tit. 1. 13. 1 Tim. 5. 19. 2 Tim. 4. 2.

Ans. Complaints are to be given to the Elders, that they may prepare them for the congregation, and lend the action. T…efore the incestuous Corinthian … said to be r… of many, and so judged of many, not by the judgement only of discration; for so they might judge these that were without, but legally.

Ans. Mr. H. answers not one word of Scripture for telling the complaints to the Elders. Christ saith, Tell the Church, that is, tell all the visible Saints, say our Brethren.

2. That the incestuous Corinthian was rebuked legally of many, that is, of the Elders and Brethren, or Male-Church only, that is said, not proved. If we speak of judging by the judgement of discretion, he was rebuked of Elders, Brethren, Women, aged Children, Servants, for it concerned them in conscience to have knowledge of it, and to yield to withdraw from him, and to forgive him, upon his repentance to joyn with him, else their obedience must be blind.

2. The minor is false.

1. For though they judge Heathen with the judgement of discretion, it follows not, that therefore Brethren, Women, aged It cannot be denied but all in their owne respective ways officers, men, women, servants, 2 Cor. 2. did rebuke and censure, and also forgive the incestuous Corinthian.2 Cor 2Children, and Servants should not also judge an excommunicate person by the same judgement.

2. The probation is faulty, for I appeal to the conscience of our Brethren, whether there be not sundry kinds of judgement of discretion, and whether Church-members have not one kind of judgement of discretion toward the excommunicate man, who is now under a medicinal Church-cure, and another judgement of discretion toward them that are without, and were never members.

p. 269Mr. H. to Mr. R. his twelfth Argument, It hath received an … out of a mistake, because neither women alone, nor children will make a Church, nor have any publick power put into their hands for that purpose.

Ans. I never said in any Argument, that women and children there alone ma…e a Church, nor spake I of womens ruling there: But yet I say, women, children of years of discretion, serva…s being the Lords freemen and professing the faith.

Arg. 1. The essential parts and largest part of the Congregation… Church of Believers, professing the faith of Peter builded upon the rock, Mat. 18. …ting every Lords day to partake of all the Ordinances; and therefore if the Church, Mat. 16. The way of the Church, c. 1. sect. 1. p. 1, 2.signifie such a Church … …hat which you say, women and such children and servants must especially be understood as parts thereof, under the name of the Church, tell the Church, and if so, the Church to which we complain, doth not bind and loose by your own grant.

2. What ground is there in the Word, that the Brethren alone, Women by our brethrens way, servants, and children of age, who meet to partake of the ordinances, word, and seals, as our brethren say, must be parts of the Church, Matth. 18.Matt 18because men should, only be mooned by the name of the instituted Church in the Gospel, or the … Church of Believers, partakers of all the ordinances, excluding women and such children and servants, since there … neither made nor female, bound nor free to be regarded in the condtion of believing visible Saints? Gal. 3. 28. … 9. 14. 1 Cor. 7. 21, 22. So is not this very like to the respect of persons condemned by the Apostle I…, ch. 2, 3, 4, 5. when brethren because of their sex, and heads of families must be the only Church of believers, built upon the rock, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of Christ, the Redeemed of God, partakers of all the precious ordinances, and the only visible Church above all the officers, women, children, servants?

3. Nor hath such a Church of only few, any such power put in their hand, and so to say, because it is said, Tell the Church, except Mr. H. prove them to be the governing Church above the Officers, is to beg the question; for Mr. Cotton and Mr. Burroughs say, without officers the brethren can exercise n… jurisdiction, Cotton Keyes. par. 16. Burroughs Iren,no excommunication, one of the highest acts of rude in the Church; they have nothing without the officers (saith Mr. p. 270Burroughs) but brotherly admonition, no jurisdiction. And Mr. H. is to give a parallel place in old and new Testament if he hear not the Church, id est, the male-Church of Brethren, let him be cast out.

Mr. H. Arg. 13. Not only the Church must convene to worship God in Spirit and Truth, but that they bind and loose by the Pastoral Spirit of Paul, and officers in their convention.

Ans. The Church met hath power to execute all acts of discipline, as well as doctrine.

2. The Church of Corinth is blamed, because without the knowledge of Paul, or his authority (as they ought to have done) they did not excommunicate the incestuous person, only for their encouragement, he expresseth his consent, and the concurrence of his spirit.

Ans. That the Church of Believers without the pastoral spirit and authority of Paul or any other officer, and excluding the tacit consent of women, children of age, and believing servants, could exercise all acts of Discipline and Doctrine, that is, of pastoral preaching, destroyes Mr. H. his principles; for who can preach but sent Pastors? Rom. 10. 14. not unofficed brethren. And as to the point of Jurisdiction, Mr. Cotton and Mr. Burroughs, with me, deny it, and Mr. H. nakedly saith it. That the Church of Corinth was rebuked for not excommunicating the man, is true: But 1. what means he by the Church rebuked?

1. All that were rebuked must be the Church; can Mr. H. deny but women, children of years, servants, were rebuked, as those who were puffed up, and mourned not? ver. 1, 2.

2. And as those who were a part, and the largest part of the If as many doe excommunicate, as Paul writes unto, 1 Cor. 5. and as Paul rebukes for not mourning, and were a part of the lump in danger to be leavened, and were to keep the feast, and eschew the company of the scandalous, that is, the whole redeemed Church, as Mr. H. argues, then sure Women must excommunicate, 1. Cor. 5. as well as men. See Mr. H. par. 1. c. 10. p. 138.1 Cor 5lump, that is, of the body of the people in danger to be leavened with that scandal, ver. 6.

3. As those who were to keep the feast (Christ being sacrificed for them) With sincerity, ver. 8.

4. As those who should not familiarly converse with scandalous p. 271fornicators, ver. 11. but all of them were to judge, and put away the wicked person from among them, ver. 13. in a way suitable to their place, that is, the officers with Pauls Spirit, or a pastoral authority like unto it, the brethren, women, children of age, and servants, professing the faith in their way, by consenting, and by the judgement of discretion so far as belonged to their practise in withdrawing from the delinquent. 2. Not did I deny that the Church of Corinth should have excommunicated the man before Paul wrote to them, but that they should have done it without Pauls knowledge, is onelyonly said, not proved; and that any save officers, and such as were indued with such a pastoral spirit as was in Paul, could have done it, is onelyonly asserted by Mr. H. his sole word; and this answer insinuates, that the onelyonly male-Church did it, and they needed not any pastoral spirit; onelyonly Paul addeth ex superabundanti his encouraging consent, whereas the work might have been done without officers by this new male-jurisdiction, which is contradicted by Mr. Cotton, and not owned by the Scripture.