Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 8
CHAP. VIII.
Arguments against a Presbyterial Church taken from the Name and Nature of the Church, Matth. 18. are discussed.
MR. H. A Church in the Gospel is never used for the Elders Mr. H. par. 1. c. 9. p. 127, 128. sec. 4. 3 groundonelyonly.
Ans. It is never used in the N. T. for men onelyonly who govern, secluding women and children, as Mr. H. takes it; nor for the people secluding the Elders as a governing Society; but of the signification hereafter. But it cannot be a binding and authoritative loosing Church.
Mr. H. There cannot be a definition given that will agree to a Congregational and Presbyterial Church.
Ans. Ergo, There is no Presbyterial Church, it follows One and the same nature agrees to the congregational, presbyterial Church, &c. Pag. 127. 128.not.
2. As we take a Congregational Church for the Eldership ruling, it is false. One and the same nature of a Ruling Church agreeth to the Congregational, Presbyterial, Provincial Eldership: and so they differ per magis & minus, as is said.
Mr. H. If the Congregations be species specialissimae of a true Church, then there can be no lower species resulting or arising from them, as this doth.
Ans. No Logick can say, the Church of Boston so existing The congregational, Presbyterial, National, Oecumenick Churches are species specialissimae.hath other species of the Church of Boston under it. The hand of Socrates cannot be called species specialissima; nor is the hand, to speak Logically, a species; it is a part, and an uncomplete part of the body. If Mr. H. mean, as it seems he doth, that we make Presbyterian, Provincial Churches, lower species and kindes of Congregational Churches, the pious man refutes Presbyterian Government, which he understands not. For species specialissima praedicatur de inferioribus, according to Aristotle his, Ramus, and all Logick. And O what Monsters feed we if this be true properly (a Presbyterial Church is a Congregational Church) or (a Congregation is a Presbyterial Church) for the congregation is an integral part of the Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian likewise an integral part of the Provincial: but neither of them is species to other, except we say, Euphrates is the Element of Water, the Element of water is Euphrates.
M. H. If every congregation hath all the integral parts of a Church, then it is an intire and complete Church.
Ans. Therefore it is an intire politick Church in its association How a congregation is an intire church. Tertul. in Apolog.with other Churches, it follows not. But what then? London is an intire city having all the integral parts of a Society, Major, Sheriffs, Aldermen, Rulers and ruled, Ergo, London is no part of England, nor ruled by the Parliament of England. VVhat Logick is this? But if the meaning be, that the congregation associated in the midst of ten congregations, is so a city different in species and in nature from all other congregations, and so married to its own Pastors, as the husband and wife are, so that to exercise Church-acts, official acts without themselves, is adultery and unlawful; and so as this Church is no integral part of the body Catholick, its against Scripture and sound reason, and a begging of the question.
Mr. H. Every integrum is made up of his members, therefore in nature they are before, therefore Churches before Classis; therefore what each have they receive from them; therefore they have no office, but from them; therefore both ordination and jurisdiction come from them.
Ans. I desider at a Syllogism.
Every whole Incorporation is made up of its members that are before the whole, and hath power, offices, ordination and jurisdiction from these members. It is denied by us, and nakedly asserted by Mr. H. ForThough the Churches of believers, men and women be before the Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, Presbyteries, Synods, yet it follows not, therefore must Apostles, Pastors, Synods have their calling and authority from those Churches.
1. The Churches are before the Apostles, Ergo, the Apostles had their immediate calling and power of jurisdiction from the Churches. It is against Scripture: as women and children are by nature before officers; ergo, officers have their ordination and jurisdiction from women and children. 3 Churches are before counselling and advising, yea as Mr. Cotton saith well before, pastorally and authoritatively determining Synods, Ergo, Synods have all their synodical power to counsel and pastorally teach from the Churches, they came from, it follows not, not will our brethren yeild the consequence.
Mr. H. If a Congregation grow too big, and therefore be forced Sect. 4. p. 128. Mr. Hooker acknowledges that divers meetings and Church conventions may may be all under one Presbyterial government, only he will not call them Churches.to swarm out; or in ease they transplant themselves from one place to another, so that part be forced to go before others, to make preparation for those that follow, we then send an Offic…r with the smaller party, and the greater number remain with the rest: and yet are all but one Church in our account, and under one Presbytery of chosen Elders of the Congregation.
Ans. 1. Why do not our Brethren shew a practice of this in the Church of Ierusalem, consisting of so many Act. 2. & 4. & 6. thousands, if more then five thousands all in one congregation? Was there not need that four or six congregations should swarm out of six thousands, and six Officers be sent with them? in which case, suppose they go fourty miles to a new Colony, and five congregations meet in five sundry places for Word and Sacraments, here must be five Churches, …s our brethren take the word Church, 1 Cor. 11. 18. Act. 11. 16 & 21. 22. & 4. 31. Mat. 18. 17. & 16. 18. Sure, though they had no Officers, they are a homogeneous true visible Church, as Mr. H teacheth, page 1. c. 5. page 5. and so here, or six Churches (if we contend not about names) under one Presbyterial government, which is the yeelding of the cause, and yet at forty miles distance, and yet by no will or appointment can they meet in one place, O but they are all one Church in our account! one congregation in Christs account. Shew us Scripture for this acception of the word Church in Old or New Testament; that they are one single congregation, otherwise Mr. H. his account is no account: If they be one Church, because they have one and the same power, jurisdiction; officers they had before. So we say, and the same power and jurisdiction in nature and essence we grant; but so all the congregations on earth have one and the same power and jurisdiction, covenant, seals, saith, Christ, hope of glory; so we agree. Why dispute we, if the meaning be, that all these six swarmes (for a thousand will be a number too great for one congregation, if not sufficient) are but one individual congregation, though now separated by forty miles, and meeting in six sundry places.
1. Give us Scripture for that Church.
2. Give us any Greek Author sacred or prophane, that so speakes, for we stand not to Mr. H. his account in this.
3. Where there are and must be six sundry meetings, coitiones six numero distinctae.
2. Six companies hearing at the same time six several Sermons.
3. Partaking of six Tables of the Lord numerically distinct, Way of the Church. c. 1. sect. par. 1.here sure must be fix congregations, as our Brethren define us a Church, a company of Believers meeting in one place, &c. And if so, here is a prelacy.
3. A number of non-residents; for all are Elders ruling; but it is physically impossible, that all can be Elders teaching. So Mr. H. then it is no… essential to a Church that they meet all Survey par. 1. c. 9. p. 110, 111 &c.foreign, in one place, as the brethren often tell us.
M. H. But when the Congregations are fixed, and they established in peace, and setled with support about them, not more then may comely and comfortably meet together, to partake of all ordinances, should be one Church.
Ans. If the six swarms, which issue out of the numerous Mr. H. must be forced by his own principles to grant there is one visible Church which cannot meet conveniently foreign, in the same place, and yet under the same Eldership.Church of Ierusalem, disturb the peace, and make war and division in the Church, it is strange. The Eldership or Presbytery over these six swarms, so separated by many miles in divers Colonies, may either meet and exercise discipline, and dispence censures to these six swarms not yet setled, and provided with Officers, or they may not meet. To say they may not meet for that end, is to deny that they are under one Presbytery of the same chosen Elders, contrary to what Mr. H. said. If they may meet to dispence censures, here shal be ruling Elders, & no physical possibility of teaching the swarms so separated as fourty miles, they may haply hear of written Decrees, as Act. 16. 4. but cannot be edified by preaching.
2. So this Church congregational which cannot comely and comfortably meet to partake of all the ordinances, is no ordinance of Christ, and so no congregational Church. But such are these swarms that are fourty miles distant.
3. This Church is either visible, or not; neither can be said by Mr. H. his principles, as elsewhere is proved.
Mr. H. Hence an answer may be easily accommodated to the examples which Mr. R. brings for a Presbyterian Church.
1. That of the Apostles will no wise suit his end for to make up a Presbyterial Church; there must be many congregations, many Elders appropriated to these congregations, which have power over their own only, and not over others; and these must combine, and upon the combination, the Elders must assemble and d…spence their censures, and set down their decisions. But there were no Elders at Jerusalem appropriate to their several charges and Churches, which had power only over them; and such Elders the Apostles could not be, because though they had all power in them, yet they had no power limited for that should contradict their Apostolick commission.
Ans. I smile to read this worthy man yeild in terminis a Presbyterial Mr. H. yeilds to us a Presbyterian Church at Ierusalem.Church; and yet be saith, the examples serve not Mr. R. his end. Why? saith he,
1. To make up a Presbyterial Church, there must be many congregations; good: so say we.
2. There must be many Elders appropriated to these Congregations, which have power over their own only (saith he) and not over others; That we deny. I should say, any other save this worthy man, (whom I much loved and ever honoured) who would write a Book against Presbyterial government, and yet did not understand the constituent elements of a presbyterial Church, deserves to be censured; for Mr. H. yieldeth all the presbyterial Church that Mr. R. pleads for, or that the famous Synod at Westminster desire; where there were eminently learned men, who well understood Presbyterial government, and all adversaries thereof. An eminent man Mr. Ier. Burroughs, one of the dissenting Brethren, did not oppose, nor enter his dissent against the proposition, concerning a Presbyterial Church, as Mr. H. does; nor look upon it as a principal of Presbyterial government; only the Dissenters did hold, there was but one single congregation at Ierusalem, in which they are redacted to miserable absurdities; and in these two Mr. H. contradicts them: let them compose their domestick contradictions. See the answer of the Assembly of Divines to the seven dissenting Brethren, An. 1644. Suppose in Jerusalem (saith the Synod) there Page 51.were ten congregations, and twenty officers, feeding and ruling them in common, not one of them fixed to any one congregation. This kind of Presbytery would pass for a lawful government: and none of these incongruities or absurdities are charged on them, by this argument: and it shall not follow that ruling and teaching are not commensurable, as the Holy Ghost makes them commensurable.
2. Mr. H. cannot, nor any man for him, clear from that text Act. 2… whether they were fixed or not fixed, they are the Elders of the Church of Ierusalem, that is, as Mr. H. saith, contradicting the dissenting Brethren, Elders of divers congregations, under one Presbyterial government, which is all we crave.
2. Fixedness or not fixedness of Elders is an accident of the Fixedness or no fixedness of the Elders of Ierusalem to their own proper congregations is altogether accidental to the Church presbyterial. The Apostles fixed feeding at Rome, at Corinth, is not opposite unto, but of that same nature with his feeding pastorall all the world over.visible governing Church to our Brethren: who hold that it is the same numerical Church homogeneous, which being void of Elders, may chuse their officers, and thereafter being fixed and formed, may excommunicate all their Elders, if they turn heretical; so that the people is the Church without their officers, and the officers to Mr. H. are separable adjuncts, and the coming or going of the separable adjuncts of the Church cannot alter the nature of the Church. It is most weak, that Mr. H. saith, that the Apostles could not be fixed Pastors to them, for then they should be limited Pastors to them, and so not Apostles: for there can be no contradiction between Apostles and Pastors, for their fixed preaching, and fixed administring of the seals. For example, Pauls pastoral officiating a year and six months at Corinth, Act. 18. 11. and so many years at Sphesus, so many years at Rome, differs not in nature and essence from the pastoral preaching and administring of the seals in constantly fixed Pastors, chosen to the congregation for all their life: and yet he remained habitu, and actu primo an Apostle. Yes the adding of an extraordinary seal of a miracle, contradicts not the charter, or the preaching of the Gospel, more then Samuels judging at Gilgal, is opposite to his judging all Israel at Ramah: Extension of preaching to many is a meer accident; and a members receiving of the Supper in his own Church is not opposite to his receiving thereof in four other Churches. See the Answer of the Assembly, page 115, 116.
As also, if the twelve Apostles govern, as they do, Act. 6. All the twelve meetings, and yet neither do, nor can preach all All the incongruities that are the onelyonly arguments of Mr. H. against a Presbyterial church, are militant against the presbyterial Church which Mr. H. grants was at Ierusalem.of them to every one of the twelve, except all the twelve be in twelve several meetings at once, then (which is a monstrous impossibility)
1. Ruling is divided from preaching.
2. Then all the twelve cannot fulfil their Ministry. Yes,
3. Then Episcopal ruling of many Churches, and neither being bound, nor able to teach any of them, or all of them, is not sinful. But sure the Apostles might govern, send their decrees, and Epistles to many Churches, the members whereof they never saw in the face.
Nor could all the many thousands, who had power of judging with the Elders, as our Brethren say, meet in one place comely and comfortably to act: and therefore Christ so must never have appointed such a judicature, to rule all these congregations, who are entitatively one; so must they say what we say, and more. For all the congregations on earth are entitatively and in nature one, and yet our Brethren will be far from saying, that they are all under one government, as they say that these meetings at Ierusalem were.
M. H. The rest of the examples of Antioch, Ephesus, Rome, though it were granted upon their greater growth, and increase, and so want of Elders, they might meet in divers places for the while, these might still be under one presbytery, their officers in a distinct manner attending upon them. And therefore Gerson Bucerus in his answer sayes here, Quis adeo ineptire sustinuerit, &c. Who can say; that because they meet in divers places, they were under divers Presbyteries, or Elders?
Ans. 1. This is a short way of answering, with a leaving out of the Church of Samaria, a great City, wherein all both men and women were baptized, the Church of Corinth, of Thessalonica, &c.
2. And yet there is no lesse cause to say all the Saints Mr. H. well near also yieldeth that there was a Presbyterian Church at Antioch, Ephesus, Rome.at Rome, Antioch, Ephesus, Samaria could not meete in one place, then that these of Ierusalem could not.
2. If they might meet in divers places, for the while, and yet be under one Presbytery; Here is a Presbyteriall Church of many Congregations, for a while. Here is a Prelaticall and Antichristian Government, for a while, at least ordained by Christ.
And Mr. H. writes a Book with a huge noise of absurdities, with which he burdens his Brethren the Presbyterians; yet he will suffer their Church to stand, for a while.
3. Who told Mr. H that a Presbyterial Church may stand for a while, during the time of the growth of the the Church of Ierusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, but no longer? for when the swarmed out Churches are once setled, the Presbyterian Church must downe againe, since the Scripture speakes nothing of this. Who gave Mr. H. leave to set up an Antichristian Tabernacle (for so is the Presbytery to him) for an houre, and pull it downe again?
4. It is a wonder that Mr. H. should cite Gerson Bucer cuttedly, as a Witnesse so much for a Presbyteriall Church, not in the swarming out of Churches onelyonly (of which Bucer hath not one word) but in the setled state of the Church: for Bucer contradicts Mr. H. and all his as foolishly erring, when they say such Churches meet in divers places for the Word and Seales; Ergo, they are independent in their government, and cannot be under one common government. Bucer saith, if they lie near together, it is folly to say they are under divers Presbyteries, and so say we.
Mr. H. 2. It doth not appear out of any Text, nor any evincing Argument gathered therefrom, that (setting aside the Church of Jerusalem) they should needs meet in several places.
Ans. Then the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places, by Mr. H. his argument: but this shall offend the dissenting Brethren, that maintain against the Synod at Westminster, that There are the like reasons, that the multitudes of Believers at Rome, Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, Samaria, Thessalonica, could not meet in one place, and so there must be in these huge Cities many Congregations under one Presbyterial Government, as for the multitudes at Ierusalem.they meet all in one place.
2. Mr. H. should have given a reason, why the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places, and not the other Churches of Antioch, Ephesus, but because he saw our Arguments run as strong for other Churches as for Ierusalem. He was pleased to dictate what he could not demonstrate, and so leave the Reader in the dark.
3. Before I leave this, let Mr. H. or his teach what is meant by this, that there were about three thousand added to the Church, Act. 2. 21. whether by the Church be meant the one hundred and twenty, of which ch. 1. and whether there the one hundred and twenty were there to receive the three thousand as members at that time in a judicial way? And if they were not there, how the three thousand were not added primarily to the Catholike Christian Church that then was; and secondarily What is meant by Church, Act. 2. were added to the Church.to this, or to that Church? as we say. For when there were said to be added to the Church, they were not added to themselves.
Mr. H. 3. Let it be considered, whether by Church may not be meant many Churches. Saul made havock of the Church. i. e. of the faithful of many Churches.
Ans. It is weak as water, Saul persecuteth the Church, i. e. Mr. H. inclines to exp… the word C…h of the …thful, Saul made havock of the C…. E…, there is … Presbyteri… a church. How watery is this L…gick?members of the independent Church: Ergo, there is no Presbyterial Church. Ergo, there is not such a thing as a Synod, for he persecuted Iames, Peter, and the Elders and Brethren, members of the Synod, where he might find them; now the Apostles were not fixed member of congregations: and let Mr. H. consider whether Luke gives not a better interpretat on then he, Act. 83. Saul made havock of the Church, entring into every house, and haling m…n and women, and committed them to p…ison. So that Saul destroyed the scattered members, that were n…t inchurched, and where he found any of this way, Act. 9. 2. whether members of a congregation, or not, even members of divers meetings under one Presbytery, as he grants, he persecuted them. And by this the Church at Ierusalem, Act. 11. 22. must be Churches congregational at Ierusalem. And Act. 2. The Lord added to the Church such as should be saved; that is, the Lord added to divers Independent Congregations, such as should be saved; good: but this Church and these common Elders meet for acts of Government, Act. 2. 18. and the day following, Paul went in with us to J…, and all the Elders (verse 25.) were present. S…re the place shewes they meet for acts of Government. Yea, Act. 11. 30. & 21. 18. They sent alms to the Elders of Iudea, to be distributed to the distressed in Iudea. As also the Elders of Iudea were members of the Synod, Act. 1…. And how could there be administrating of the seals without any jurisdiction at all to debar the unworthy?