Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 3
CHAP. III.
The Arguments of Mr. H. against the Presbyterian Churches are removed as weak.
MR. H. Arg. 1. If the Churches combined have no more Survey c …. par. 1. p. 99.power than they had before they were combined, they can exercise no more Iurisdiction than before; and therefore have no Presbyterian power, are no Presbyterian Churches.
But they have no more power after their combination, than before: Ergo.
The Assumption, where the doubt onelyonly lies, is made out thus: They who have no more office and officers than they had before, they have no more jurisdiction; as in the first ground, power of jurisdiction flows from power of office. But they have no more officers, for each send their own; therefore they have no more power.
Ans. Mr. H. says, The doubt is onelyonly in the assumption, and The Churches united have more power extensively after they are united than before; but not intensively, & in nature moretakes the proposition for undeniable: The major is false; for by this argument, two single congregations each a hundred in number, lying so near as they may most conveniently meet, cannot lawfully unite in one Church, for the better attaining the end of Christ, which is edification: for say they be the same number of offices and officers, then they can exercise no more power of jurisdiction, after the combination over two hundred, than each of them did over one hundred. But the Conclusion is absurd. Yea, this Argument destroys the Synod, Acts 15. for suppose the number of offices and officers to be equal in the Synod, after the Synodical combination, and in the Church of either Antioch onelyonly, or Ierusalem onelyonly, before the combination, which is a facile and ordinary supposition; then they can exercise no more Synodical power (it matters not what be the kinde, whether of power of jurisdiction, or not) after the combination of these Churches than before; and so the judgement of a Synod should be no more than the judgement of a Congregation. But the consequence is absurd. Let Mr. H. see to it, and deal with Mr. Cotton to answer him.
2. To the Proposition. If the Churches combined have no more power extensively, feeding a larger number after the combination than before, then they can exercise no more jurisdiction, no more, by way of extension; it is false: for their united power is extended to a larger number now, then the divided power was before to each single flock. If the Churches combined have more power intensively, of the same species and nature after the combination than before, then they can exercise no more jurisdiction intensively than before. Its true, it is the same power of Christ, the same valid Excommunication, the same binding and loosing as to the specifick nature of binding and loosing, that is exercised by five Churches in a City, and exercised by ten Churches about. We multiply not species, to make all congregations to differ in nature and specie, as Mr. H. doth against Logick; whereas they have the same essentials, Christ the Head, the same Ordinances, Seals, the same Faith; but then it shall never follow, Therefore they have no Presbyterian power over many Churches, and therefore they are not distinct Presbyterian Churches in local distinction; magis & minus non variant specious. Nor are Presbyterian, and Provincial and National Churches different in nature, but onelyonly in extent of Jurisdiction.
3. Its a wide mistake, That a Presbyterian Church hath its formal essence from a voluntary actual combination in such Actual voluntary combination is no pillar of the Presbyterian Church.bounds, or such a circuit more or less: that is not a Pillar of Presbyterian Churches; for their near association, by dwelling where they may edifie or scandalize one another, gives them right to be an associated Church, not simply habitation, but the habitation of such and such professors in covenant with God, baptized, and giving themselves up in profession to Christ as disciples, before there be a formal consent, they are obliged to associate: yea, nor doth that voluntary combination make a Presbyterial Church.
Mr. H. Arg. 2. If the Presbyterian Ministers have Iurisdiction, Page 99, 100.then, over all the Churches of the combination, or onelyonly …ver some; not over some onelyonly, for that is against the definition of a Presbyterian Church: Therefore they must have Iurisdiction over all the Churches, ten or sixteen. If they have Iurisdiction over all these, then they are Officers, Pastors, Teachers, Ruling-Elders in office to them all; for there must be an office, and so officer before Iurisdiction; and there is no Iurisdiction exercised but by an officer. To say they are Pastors of them all, is to make a road and ready way for Pluralities, Non-Residencies.
Ans. Mr. H. gives us, as also the Dissenting Brethren in Twelve pastors feed 12 congregations in Jerusalem, or in some large city in cōmon, not being fixed any of them to any one congregation, all the 12 are pastors to all the 12 congregations, & yet it is not possible physically, that any one man can reside in all the 12 congregations; here shall be divers Non-residents & Pluralists, but not in a Prelatical sense.the Assembly at Westminster did, in stead of Scrip…ure, a number of supposed incongruities, which with equal weight fall upon their own way, as upon ours. For suppose that the twelve Apostles, Act. 2. & 4. & 6. for divers years were Pastors to the many thousands that made up divers, eight or ten congregations, who daily convened from house to house, Act. 4. 46. & 5. 42. in Ierusalem; and that all the twelve feed all the ten congregations in common, Matthias not being a fixed Pastor to this congregation more than to this; nor Peter a fixed Pastor to this flock rather than to this, which is a thing most ordinary in great Cities, where there be 12 Flocks, and 24 Pastors, and variety of gifts by interchange, proves more edifying. All the Pastors have jurisdiction, yea and Pastoral charge over every one of the twelve. Then 2. must they be Pastors and Teachers to every one of the twelve, and because all the 24 cannot every one of them be residents and dwellers in all and every congregation of the ten or twelve Churches in Ierusalem, (that is physically impossible) here shall be Pluralities and Non-residents, and that which our Brethren call Diocesan Prelates here.
2. That the Presbyterial preachers be pastors and teachers, habitu, and actu primo, and in common to all the Churches of the combination, in acts of common concernment, though they be not actu secundo, actual labourers, proper and fixed pastors, residents and dwellers in every congregation (for that was physically impossible to the Elders of Ierusalem) to all and every congregation, is not absurd, but necessary; and the charge of Pluralities, and Prelatical Non-residents, follows by no Logick, except you call the twelve Apostles, who preached fixedly at Ierusalem some years, Non-residents, because that they could not every one of them dwell in every family of so many thousands at once: In which sense, multitudes of Independent Ministers shall be Non-residents; and suppose there shall be a common Treasury to pay the labourers their wages, and that collected out of the goods of all the thousands so combined, the Independent Ministers upon the same account must be Pluralists, and receive wages from many, to whom they neither are nor can be fixed, and proper and peculiarly feeding Pastors.
3. Wisdome may forbid the Brethren to use this Argument, There is no jurisdiction exercised, but by an officer: for the whole people, men and women, the onelyonly Church instituted in the New Testament, or their unofficed Male Church, the Fraternity exercise the highest Jurisdiction, and excommunicate all their officers, and yet they are not officers by their own principles.
Mr. H. Mr. R. denies the Assumption, That they bear the relation of proper Pastors to every one of these Congregations.
Mr. H. Proper Pastors they must be to all. If the relation of Eldership to a Classical Church be founded upon the same office that a Pastor hath to his particular congregation, then the Elders bear that same relation of Watchmen to a Classical Church, which a Pastor doth to a particular flock: for where there is the same office of a Pastor, there is the same relation of Watchman and Pastor, the one issuing from the other. But the first is said by Mr. R. Lib 2. 335. also they put forth authoritative acts, which issue onelyonly from proper Pastors, they are proper Pastors to those upon whom they can exercise such acts, else they had no warrant to put them forth.
Answ. I yet in this sense deny the assumption, that they are proper Pastors, that is, actual imployers of their labours of feeding, both by fixed teaching and governing, to all the flocks of the classical Church; for that is unpossible, except they could be in many Congregations at once so feeding. But I deny not, but constantly teach, that the Presbyterian Pastors are properly, that is, formally, essentially, habitu, actu primo, Pastors in relation The Elders of the Presbytery are fixed and proper Pastors, only to one flock and Pastor in common, in matters of common concernment to all the rest of tho associate Churches.to all the flocks, not of the classical Church only, but of all the visible Churches on earth. As a Physician by covenant actually imployed to attend all the sick of such a City, suppose Norwich, is their proper Physician, yet so as he is essentially a Physician to all in England, who shall by providence employ him. An exquisite Gardener by paction, is a proper Gardener to such a man who conduces or hires him a certain time, to labour such a plot of ground, yet so as essentially and actu primo, he is a Gardener to all the Country round about who shall employ him. So is one a proper School-master to teach Grammar and Rhetorick to the children of such a City, yet so as he is a School-master to all the children of the country who shall employ him. Christ sends his Pastor Archippus intentionally to feed all his flocks in all fields, and he is essentially a Pastor to them all; but for the more convenient attaining of Christs end, he fixes him by the choice of the people to the Church of Coloss, not as a Husband to a Wife.
2. Mr. H. With his little finger aims not to twitch the probation of this.
1. Where there is the same office of Pastor, there is the same relation of Watchman and Pastor. It is false, a Physician, a Pastor providentially fixed to cure and feed this City by special covenant, hath a more near relation to cure and feed this City; having a twofold relation, both by the calling in general of a Physician and Pastor, and by a special solemn oath, and hand-writ to this City; and both the Physician is the same publick Physician, and the Pastor the same publick Watchman officio, by office essentially, habitu, actu primo, to all the sick bodies and sick souls in the country. A mother is the same mother to ten children, but hath a special relation to the eldest as her heir.
2. As born with more pain and labour then all the other nine.
3. As more dearly loving him then all the other nine. Here is the same place, the same officer, but sundry particular relations.
3. Mr. H. leaves that unproved, the Presbyterian Pastors cannot put forth authoritative acts Pastoral, but hoc ipso, they must be proper, i. e. their fixed Pastors, and made theirs by the particular A Pastor may administer the Supper of the Lord, which he doth as a Pastor to these of another Congregation, yet is he not a fixed proper Pastor to those of another congregation. Cotton Keys. c. 6. n. 3. p. 25. Mr. H. Survey. par. 2. c. 2. p. 65. Way of the Churches of Christ in New England. c. 6. sect. 6. pag. 103 Hr. H. Survey. par. 4. c. 1. p. 1, 2, 3, 4. Our brethren destroy Synods, though they give them the name of ordinances of Christ. Mr. H. Survey. par. 4. p. 1, 2, 3. When no more is given to a Synod but to counsel and advise, it is for that no more an ordinance of God, then a private man or woman giving a counsel is an ordinance of God.choice of the people to feed and govern these, toward who… they put forth these pastoral acts; because indeed it is adultery to them who are no husbands, to put forth pastoral acts of governing, upon those to whom they are not fixed Pastors; ye… they tender the Supper to forraign members; and so this is a rotten pillar of this way.
2. Forsaken by Mr. Cotton, and the way of the Churches of N. E. and by Mr. H. himself.
3. It destroys Synods and all communion of Churches; for Mr. Cotton yeildeth, as truth of the Gospel taught by a Minister of the Gospel, bindeth to faith and obedience, not only because it is Gospel, but because also it is taught by a Minister, for his calling sake, seeing Christ hath said, whoso receiveth you, receiveth me; they bind not only materially, but formally, for the Synods sake. I see not how this can be answered, though indeed the Discipline of N. E. and Mr. H. say the contrary both of this and their own grounds; for Elders in Synods put forth authoritative and pastoral acts, to these Churches of which these Elders are not proper and fixed Pastors; but Pastors they are to these Churches, as to all the Churches of the combination, else they cannot warrantably put forth acts pastoral, for their feeding and governing to edification, except it be said, a Synod is no ordinance of Christ; which all the Brethren and Mr. H. himself deny. All acknowledge a Synod to be an ordinance of Christ. But the truth is, they but mock the Reader in so saying, for they give no more to it, but an act of charity, to counsel, as one brother counsels another: Intuitu charitatis, saith the Discipline of New England. And so Mr. H.
For, what 1. availes it more to say a Synod is an Ordinance of God, because they can give a charitative counsel, then to say one single Believer is an Ordinance of God, or a Woman who can counsel a man? The Synod then is no positive Ordinance of divine institution; for upon the same ground, if a Synod be an Ordinance of God, because they may counsel the Churches, we may appoint a new Ordinance of a Synod. For, first, one refuting. Another for rebuking. A third for confirming. And a fourth for comforting.
2. It is but a mocking of the world, to say the association of Churches is an ordinance of God, for they can give counsel to the Churches of the bounds (what may be replied, had I time, is soon washed away.)
But first, so can twenty other Churches without the bounds Private Christians and women giving counsel to men may as well be called an ordinance of Christ as a Synod.of these Churches; so can many eminent Christians in another Congregation, not in office, give a counsel by way of charity to a Synod convened synodically, shal they for that be a Synod of a Synod? and shall they be an Ordinance of Christ distinct from a Congregational Church for that?
Yea, Abigail a woman, a captive maid, gave, the one a divine counsel to David, and the other to Naaman the Syrian. Shall women therefore be made new ordinances of God? and if neither the one counsel nor the other have any weight from the givers of the counsel, but only from the word; it is in vain to name the one an ordinance of God, more then the other: as for reverence to the persons, a Synod of Elders, more then one single mans counsel, adds not the eighth part of a feather as touching authoritative weight to the Counsel, if the Synods counsel amount to nothing more in point of a divine ordinance; then Mr. H. saith, any Counsel may lay a burthen upon any Survey. par. 4. c. 1. p. 6.mans conscience; so any Christian that shall publish and preach that 1 Cor. 6. 18. flee fornication—may lay a burthen upon every soul, not from the authority of him that speaks, but because it is Scripture that is spoken; and this is all the authority of Synods. Would the Lord appoint Men, Elders, and Brethren, and Churches to come many hundred miles to heal rent and spoyled Churches, and the result of all is a meer counsel which a woman at home may give? for the Scripture by the law of Nature warrants women to give this as well as men, 2 Sam. 20. 16, 17—21, 22. 1 Sam. 25. 25, 26, 27.—32, 33, 34. 2 King. 5. 3, 4, 13. And God reveals to women, servants, poor ones, as much of this as to others of higher place.
Nor shall it help the matter, to say, it is safer to seek counsel from men then from women, from many then from one; for in the multitude of counsellers there is safety.
Ans. It is true.
But 1. This is no ground to seek to a Synod of Fathers and Elders of the bounds of these, who are no Pastors nor Elders to us, and can put forth upon us no Synodical, no Pastoral acts; upon this ground, we should select Counsellors out of one or many Churches, that have no relation to us; and so this is nothing for such a Synod, but only for many gracious Counsellors, private or publick, nothing at all for a Synod of Elders.
2. When all is done, their Counsel is but a Counsel, that hath as much weight, as it hath conformity with the rule of the Word, and so hath the counsel of a Woman, or a servant. And it is considerable that the book of Discipline of New England hath no Chapter nor Discourse of Synods, which shews they little value them.
Mr. H. These authoritative actt which are put forth in other Pag. 101.Churches issue from him, either as a Pastor, or as no Pastor; If as no Pastor, then acts of Iurisdiction may flow from him that is no Ruler. Mr. R. will gain-say this, if they proceed from him as Pastor, then either as Pastor of his own Church, which cannot be; or of another Church, and then one man may have two Pastoral offices. And all these Churches must be either his flock, or not: his flock they must be, if he be Shepherd to them, for that the nature of relatives requires, the combined Churches are many distinct flocks, and he cannot be a Pastor of many flocks.
Ans. This is the former argument with a new dress, quod fui… demonstrandum. But did Mr. H. believe his Topick probabilities would be received for demonstrations?
1. To that, These acts proceed from him either as Postor, or as no Pastor. Let him be a Pastor to a Congregation compassed A Pastor constantly feeds his own flock, and administers the Lords supper to forty persons of forty congregations about, as Mr. Cotton and Mr. H. grant: but he hath not fourty pastoral offices for that.about with nine single Congregations in Ierusalem, in convenient nearness, he feeds his own particular flock, as a fixed Pastor actually imploying his constant labours upon them, and by the same pastoral office, as Pastor habitu, actu primo, to all Churches, and more nearly to these nine, he exercises acts of government for edifying all the ten in points of concernment, which necessarily must concern them all; and it no more doth follow by a shadow of consequence, that he exerciseth two pastoral offices over many Churches, then the same Pastor exerciseth three Pastoral offices, or four over his own particular flock, as if it were four flocks, because he preacheth pastorally to some, and administers the Lords Supper to others, as to strangers.
2, Others as Infants, he baptizes as unconfirmed members. Or,
3. Others he excommunicates.
4. Others he converts as finding them no visible Saints; by one and the same office he feeds and governs all.
2. The same argument is retorted, Archippus administers the Lords Supper (as Mr. H. his book of Discipline, and Mr. Cotton Mr. H. Survey. par. 2. c. 2. p. 65 Way of the Churches of N. E. c. 6. sect. 6. p. 103.teach, and the word warrants him to do) to fourty godly visible Saints out of fourty Sister-Congregations, either as a Pastor, or no Pastor, to these fourty; either as to his own flock, or not his own flock, not as no Pastor. Mr. H. Mr. Cotton (except they follow Socinians) and all shall gainsay that; if as a pastor, then by Mr. Hookers argument, he must have Pastoral offices over fourty Churches. So the same argument destroys the Synods, though some way soundly established by Mr. Cotton; Survey. par. 2. c. 2. p. 65.yea, Mr. H. grants it is lawful to tender the seal of the Lords Supper to those of other Congregations, yea, he is warranted by the word so to do, 1 Cor. 10. 16, 17. 1 Cor. 12. 13. Eph. 2. 12, 13. Eph. 4. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 13. It is against the Congregational way; and it is not equal to bring, quod fuit demonstrandum, such strong demonstrations (as he calls them) against Mr. R. and the Presbyterian Church, which destroyes his own congregational way.
3. If he act as a Pastor and Shepherd to them, his flock they must be, for that the nature of Relatives require. This is a mistake of the nature of Relatives; for the adequate and complete correlate to which every ordinary pastor is referred as a Shepherd to the flock, as a husband to the wife, actu primo, is all the Churches on earth, as a physician is referr'd to all the sick on earth, not adequatly to this one sick person, but actu secundo, in the actual exercises of the ministerial calling, very pastor indeed now is refer'd to one flock, as a fixed providential feeder, and to these round about, the same way in acts of government that concern associate Churches: but it follows not, as is said, that he is a proper fixed pastor to these Churches round about; for these words, feed the flock, which is foreign, amongst you, 1 Pet 5. 1. & Act. 20. 28. Take heed to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you Overseers, Have no such sense as feed the one single Congregation only, as a husband to your wife, that is in Ephesus, and beware of the spiritual adultery, of taking pastoral care of the other Churches of Christ that are, foreign, amongst you. Mr. Cotton saith, the Church in the Canticles (and say I, the pastors also) take care not only for her own members, but for her little Sister, which she thought had no breasts, Cant. 8. 8. And I hence infer, that a pastor is to take a pastoral care of the Churches associate, Acts 8. 14. 2 Cor. 11. 16. for they were among them as well as the single congregation. And when Paul saith, take heed to the whole flock, foreign, he meaneth not only a single congregation, but divers congregations and many sheep in the flocks of divers congregations, as foreign signifieth not a few, but exceeding many in Scripture, Phil. 2. 21. 1 Tim. 2. 6. Heb. 2. 9. 1 Tim. 2. 4. Ioh. 11. 48. Ioh. 12. 32. Rev. 5. 13.
Mr. H. The Presbytery are Elders to the classical Church, saith Mr. R.) in some respect, not simply foreign, not in things proper to Pag. 102.each congregation, but in things common to all the united Churches, to wit, in things which rather concern the consociation of the thirty Churches (about) then the thirty Churches combined in particular. By our Saviours rule, Matth. 18. (saith Mr. H.) the offender is privately,
First, to be rebuked.
Secondly, then before two.
Thirdly, before the Church nearest the Congregation. The classical principles admit not this.
2. Suppose the man in his private fault continue obstinate, this obstinacy is re… propria, proper to the Congregation, why may not the Congregation without the Presbytery then oast him out? for this pertinacy was made known only to the Congregation or Church.
Object. But the neighbouring Churches must avoid his company upon knowledge given.
Answ. So must the Churches of another Presbytery or Classis, or of another Province, and therefore there is no more need the one should have a hand in the censure, then the other.
Ans. 1. The congregation in private scandals by our principles The place Mat. 18. is mistaken by our brethren, contrary to the scope, and to the minde of Fathers, Doctors, Divines, Councels, Martyrs. So widely D. Bils. mistaketh the place M…t. 18. Perpet. go. vernm. c. 4.(which Mr. H. it seems, knows not) doth admonish, and the offended person is to admonish, according to the order of Christ, Matth. 18.
2. Mr. H. taketh for granted, that the place Matth. 18. is a Rule for removing onelyonly private scandals: 2. And that by the word (Church) Matth. 18. is meant onelyonly his own Independent congregation.
3. That Christ, Matth. 18 shews of no removing of scandals between two visible Saints dwelling in one Christian family, who by the principles of Mr. H. may by their own free choise be members of divers congregations: (a strange dream!)
4. He supposes it must be onelyonly one single man that trespasseth against a brother, but if ten, or many sister-Churches transgress against sister-Churches. Learned Whitaker, Calvin, Beza, Pareus, all Protestant Divines, all Fathers, all learned Doctors, Papists, Lutherans, Doctors, Councels, all the Martyrs who by the Text Matth. 18. appeal to a General Councel, did but abuse the Text, in applying it to Synods: whereas Tell the Church, is now found to be onelyonly the single congregation; whereas the contrary is sure. There is a figure
1. In thy brother, for he means many brethren, within or without the congregation.
2. By trespassing, by a Sydecdoche, he means all scandals; else we were not to complain of publicke scandals to the Church.
3. By the Church, he means all Churches respectively, as those of Antioch, in case of scandalous doctrine, Tell a Synod, Acts 15. 2. The obstinacy is not proper to that congregation, if publick, the offence of it stumbles the neighbouring Churches. But
4. It will not follow, that All of another Province should have Why only the nearest Churches have real hand in healing offences.hand in the censure, as well as the Presbytery, because those of another Province may hear of it, for that is non causa pro causa: for they are not in danger to be leavened, so as those that are nearer; and the wisdome of Christ hath accommodated Discipline to our bodily craziness. For as when there be twelve thousand members at Ierusalem, he will not have them all to meet at one house, since they have twelve Apostles to teach them, but in sundry congregations, Acts 2. 46. & 5 42. not can they partake of the seals in one house, nor can they personally watch over one another, as the new Church-covenant teacheth: So neither will he have Elders foreign, in cities, where many thousands were baptized, purging their own body, and its not to be supposed that actual government for ordinary scandals should be by the personal presence of the Elders of remote Presbyteries and Provinces, far less of the Elders of the whole Catholick visible Church. For Nature, Reason, and the practise of the Apostles would say, Except the scandal be more than ordinary wide and spreading, only the Churches nearest to be edified or stumbled, should have hand in healing and censuring; though the whole Catholick and visible Church have also here some influence, to wit, tacit and virtual in that common Rule of Discipline which regulates the whole Catholick body, as is said hereafter.
Mr. H. The second difference assigned by Mr. R. is, that the Presbytery takes care rather of the regulating of the acts of governing in all these Churches, than the governed Churches.The differences betweene Elders governing in the Presbytery or Classis, and of the same Elders in their fixed congregations.
Mr. H. They express their care in judicial acts, and that directly and immediately upon scandals and scandalous persons of any congregation.
Ans. Mr. H. should have added my words to the full, that the Reader might have seen my minde. What I speak comparatively, Mr. H. would not hold it out to the Reader, as if I meant it absolutely. For
1. The Presbytery is glad that lesser evils be healed by Rebukes within the congregation.
2. I deny not but the Presbytery doth, and must directly and immediately judge greater scandals, especially between congregation and congregation, between Elder and Elder, and Rulers and Ruled of the same congregation, but ever under the former Reduplication, as they are an associate body.
Mr. H. 3 Differ. The Presbyterian Elders are Elders to all the Churches, as the Elders themselves are in collegio Presbyteriali, Page 103.and properly as they are in Court.
Ans. But I assume (saith Mr. H.) the Elders there are proper Pastors of their own particular congregations; therefore they must (if at all) be so here. A Pastor in an Island cannot teach, admonish, excommunicate, but in coetu congregationali, or severed from his Church, yet this hinders not but in these regards he is a proper Pastor to them.
Ans. Mr. H. yet halfs my words, and sets down one member Mr. H. sets not down M. R. his words perfectly, but often in halfs, & scarce that, as here.of a distinction, and leaves out the other. They are Elders to the Churches in the Presbyterial Judicature; but separatim out of that (say I, pag. 326.) they do not watch in such a way for all the souls of the Presbyterian several congregations, as they do for the single congregations of which they are fixed Pastors. And this is enough to make different relations pastoral (which is my intent) between the Elders, in order to their own congregations, and to the associated congregations, as the Elders of Antioch are Elders judging in the Synod, Acts 15. one way to Ierusalem, and other to Antioch, where they have their proper fixed charge to teach and rule: and I shall not stand to yield that they act as Elders, and by the same office of Eldership in the Presbyterial, and in the congregational Judicature, but an accidental difference there is.
2. Its most unfound that Mr H. saith, That a Pastor cannot A pastor is not a pastor onelyonly to the assembled congregation, as Mr. H. saith, but also to them all severally, and to this or that single person of the flock.teach, admonish, excommunicate, but in a congregational meeting. This is first to make him a congregational Pope or Prophet, as the Papists do the Pope, onelyonly in Cathedra, in the pulpit, or before the congregation. 2. All the dayes of the week, except in the actual congregational Assembly, he is a private man by this reason. But the Word shall warrant the pastor as a pastor to visit, to warn from house to house, Col. 1. 28. Acts 20 20. & 2. 46. & 5. 42. in season and out of season, 2 Tim. 4. 2. & 2. 25. for he does not these as a private gifted man.
3. By this reason a pastor is so a pastor, a husband, a watchman to the flock actually assembled onelyonly, but not a pastor to give an account of this or that man or womans soul to God in the flock; then if this or that man perish through the fault of the Elder, who gave not warning, Mr. H. hath taught the Minister a good excuse: I cannot be charged as an unfaithful watchman with the blood of this single man who is lost, Mr. H. saith, I am onelyonly a Pastor in relation to the flock assembled Church-ways, but I am not a Pastor nor Watchman to one single man. But ah! this distinction shall not save the man from the charge of blood! Ezek. 3. 18, 19, 20, 21. & 33. 13, 14, 15. & 34. 4, 5. Heb. 13. 17. I would not have expected from such a mans pen such a Tenet.
4. Differ. The Presbytery hath a Church relation to all these M. H. pag. 103, 104.thirty congregations not takin distributively, but collectively, as they are united in one Church classical, and in one Government. Ans. If the Presbytery put forth acts of Iurisdiction upon these Churches distributively, as they are severed, then they have a Church-relation to them distr…butively. But they admonish and censure several persons of several Churches.
Ans. 1. So do the Synod Elders at Ierusalem, Acts 15. put Though pastors in a Synod, by M. Cottons grant, put forth pastoral acts upon many congregations, yet shall it never follow, that they are proper & fixed pastors to these congregations: so neither doth this militate against a Presbyterian Church. Page 104. See Bilson, perpetual Government, c. 5. c. 12.forth authoritative pastoral acts, by the grant of Mr. Cotton, upon the several Churches distributively taken, yet are they not the proper pastors of these Churches, and Commissioners of Parliament upon persons of a single city, but as they have failed not against the Laws of that city, but against the general Laws of the whole Nation and Parliament: But it follows not, that these Commissioners are Aldermen, or fixed Judges of that city; and so Mr. H. his consequence is weak.
Mr. H. These Presbyterial Elders must exercise jurisdiction over congregational Elders, which is conceived by Mr. R. to be absurd.
Ans. Pastors, with majority of official Jurisdiction over pastors of another lower species, as Bishops above pastors, I still look upon as absurd. But that Elders in a Synod exercise Jurisdiction over Elders of a congregation that are the same in nature and degree with them, is no more absurd, than for an Eldership of a congregation to exercise Jurisdiction over some two or three scandalous Elders of their own number, which Mr. H. will not call Episcopacy.
Mr. H. Mr. R. addes, Elders of an Independent congregation, are not Elders of their single congregations, being separated from their Courts. It seems a paradox, for if separated from their Court, their office remain, then jurisdiction must remain.
Ans. Its not a seeming, but a real paradox, my words are Pastors can exercise no jurisdictiō being separated from the court, but pastoral acts of teaching they may in private exercise, and that from house to house. Pag. 104, 105.halfed. I said, They are not Elders separated from their court in the notion (these are my words omitted by Mr. H.) of the relation of a Church-jurisdiction; for they can exercise no jurisdiction, neither excommunicate, nor relax from excommunication, being not in Court, except they be prelates.
But Mr. H. addes a real absurd paradox, that they cannot exercise pastoral acts of teaching, but in the Church-assembly; which refuted before.
Mr. H. 5 Differ. Congregational Elders have power of order, and power of jurisdiction without the Court, but they have not power of jurisdiction but in the Court. Elders have a power of jurisdiction as watchmen, but a power of Church-jurisdiction they have not, but in the Court.
Ans. I never heard that their entring into the assembly should Sitting in Court gives no new power of office to elders, but they cannot put it forth in formal jurisdiction but in the Court.adde a new power.
2. Nor did Mr. R. say, their entring and sitting in the Court addeth a new official power; they had the official power actu primo before, but they can no more put it forth in acts, being separated from the Court, than a pastor might excommunicate his alone in his private chamber; which were tyrannical and null.
Mr. H. The example of the great Sanhedrim toucheth not the cause, or then destroyeth it: Nor doth the example of Commissioners of Parliament; for they get a new office to sit in Parliament, but an Elder of a congregation by sitting in the Presbytery gets no new office.
Ans. It is a weak answer, to say it helps not, and not shew Its a mistake all along in Mr. H. th… if an Elder put forth pastoral acts in a Synod or in a Presbytery, to this or that congregation, that therefore he is a fixed pastor to this or that congregation.the cause, but to lead the Reader implicitly: for the great Sanhedrim ruled over all the Tribes, and yet a Judge out of the Tribe of Dan, though a member of the Sanhedrim, did not rule over the Tribe of Benjamin, but onelyonly in the Sanhedrim, and in some common cases. The getting of a new office is neither up nor down; the Commissioners of Parliament rule in that Court over all the Shires in the Land, and by that Commission every Commissioner becomes not a Major of every City, or a Judge in every Shire. And by Mr. Cottons grant, the Elders in a Synod exercise pastoral acts, and lay on burthens, Acts 15. upon the Churches, and get no new office thereby: But they do not for that become proper Elders and pastors over every single congregation in the bounds of the Synod.
Yet to Mr. H. this is a principle, That if the Presbyterian Elders put forth pastoral acts upon all the congregations, then must they be pastors to all the particular flocks, for shepherd and flick are relatives, Arg. 2. 101. But the Conclusion is absurd. This is no less against Mr. Cotton, than against Mr. R. and against himself, who admits strangers to the Lords Supper, &c.
Mr. H. It is obvious to every man, that the Elder of the congregation hath the nature of an Elder in general, and so can and doth put forth general actions, that are common to other Elder. Where the act is, the object must be, in its proportion; and all this he doth without the Classis in his particular station: for the species determines the act of the genus, as Socrates confines the acts of the humans Nature to himself: and its known, the Classis meddles with the particular offences, that are as special as any Elder in an Island, doth meddle within his owne place.
Ans. 1. Its obvious to all men, That Mr. H. speaks new Logick, obvious to the understanding of no man, I doubt, to his own. For the Elders of a congregation, because independent, and subordinate and countable to none on earth, but to Iesus Christ (as Papists say of their wooden Head the Antichrist) determine within themselves. Suppose they he but some twelve of the twelve thousands at Ierusalem, if these be once a formal Covenant-wise married Church of people and officers, they do determine of the Doctrine of Circumcision, of the Doctrine of Balaam, Acts 15. Rev. 2. 14. (for Pergamos is to them an independent flock) and of Arrianism, and of Doctrines and Scandals that concern many hundred Churches about; and whether they determine right or wrong, its against the liberty and power Christ hath given to that Redeemed Body, of ten and twelve to tell the Churches: Oh! they must not part with their Soveraignty so; or if they consult, its but of courtesie: for, single Pergamus is rebuked (say our Brethren) for not using their Church-power in a Doctrine that concerned thousands as well as them.
2. What a mystery of Logick this may be, who is so happy How wide Mr. H. is in his Logick, the Presbyterian Elders determine of special actions & persons, for species determines the act of the genus.as to divine? Every particular Elder can, and doth put forth general actions that are common to other Elders: Why? The species determines the act of the genus. The Reason contradicts the Conclusion which it is brought to prove: For if Socrates confines the acts of Humane Nature to himself, they leave off now to be general actions, and by being contracted to the species (his species is Socrates a single person) they are now most special actions.
Mr. H. takes our meaning to be, That the members of Synods and of the Presbytery, determine of the Ideal, general, abstracted Nature of Men, of Doctrines, of Actions in communi, that needs not (saith he) for the congregational Elders put forth general actions, but confined and contracted to Socrates: So doth the Classis, the National, yea the Oecumenick and General Assembly put forth acts, determinations, both of general Doctrines, and condemn them also, as confined and contracted to Socrates, to Balaam, to Iezabel, to the Nicolaitans, and to the single men of that impure Sect. And Acts 15. 24. the Synod condemns some certain particular, individual men, foreign, Some men from us have troubled you, and said, Ye must be circumcised. Now the abstracted nature of men disputed not and made not the foreign and the rent, as v. 6, 7. but some single men. And this comes from another wilde notion of Logick that Mr. H. teacheth, That the Catholick visible Church is the Genus, and under it is this or that Independent Church. Of this hereafter. S… the Church of Boston is the Catholick integral Church: for, G…nus praedicatur de specie.
Mr. H. Its as undeniable, there be general acts in preaching and watching, which are common to all congregations, which the Presbytery neither do, nor can dispense conscienciously, because the Pastor cannot attend them: It will not suffice to say, He was Pastor to the Catholick Church before, for then before the combination he had as good power to exercise jurisdiction, as any of them. This is against Mr. R. who grants that one Church hath not power over another.
An. 1. Its undeniable, That the Apostles who were Pastors of the Catholick Church, could not attend acts of Teaching and Ruling in all the single Congregations, for that is physically impossible. But Mr. H. saith, Its morally impossible, and unlawful for a pastor to put forth a pastoral act in any Congregation, but that to which he is married, more than a man can perform marriage-duties to any but to his own wife: Neither to be an Apostle, nor to be an ordinary Pastor, doth so give right to any to feed the flock in Macedonia, nor in Bithynia, in this flock and congregation, and not in this, without the intervening of some special call of God.which is shameful Doctrine.
2. Mr. H. frequently deviseth Objections of straw, and then fires them at his pleasure, He knows Mr. R. denies, that to be a pastor of the Catholick Church, gives so right to the Apostle to preach and feed in Bithynia, but there was need of a call of God going before, as is clear, Acts 16. and so must pastors of the Catholick Church now have a call from Presbytery and Congregation, before they can lawfelly put forth in act their general pastorship which they have to the Catholick Church. Nor is this against the Church not having power over a sister-Church, because a pastor of one Congregation hath power joyntly in a Synod to exercise pastoral acts Synodical over many Churches.