Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 4
CHAP. IV.
The following Arguments of Mr. H. against a Presbyterian Church are removed. That the classical Elders separate Ruling from Teaching, are Prelates, non-Residents and Pluralists, and what not, by Mr. H. his way.
MR. H. That course which severs which God hath joined Pag. 106, 107.together is unlawful. But the classical combination doth this. Ruling and teaching belong to the office of a Pastor and Teacher, they have the prwer of the Keys, and there cannot be full binding and loosing, but by ruling and t…aching, Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1, 2.
2 Both binding and loosing are required as nec…ssary to Christs end, the gathering and perfecting of the Saints, Eph. 4. 12.
Ans. The assumption may import that the Presbytery must be Rulers, and by office, no Teachers, as the Prelate is, who by majority of power is the rule of the Pastors, and they his Deputies; the so severing of teaching and ruling in the subject cannot be charged upon us, but that the severing of them in regard of the object, is no sort of dividing of those which God hath joined, is clear; because the Pastors teach some, and rule in common others The separating of ruling and teaching in Pastors, in regard of office is unlawful; but the separating of them in acts and objects is not unlawful, but necessary.associate. And Mr. H. hath not proved the assumption.
For, 1. Elders in Synods dogmatically and authoritatively See Bilson, Perpetual Government. c. 5. c. 12. M. H. doth no less separate ruling & teaching then. Presbyterians do.teach, as Mr. H. teacheth, par. 4. pag. 5. conclus. 3. therefore Mr. H. himself separateth teaching and ruling. And Mr. Cotton saith more.
2. The people without officers may excommunicate all their officers, and so bind them, and receive them in again upon their repentance, and so loose them, as Mr. H. teacheth par. 1, c. 9. pag. 92, 93. and yet the people cannot teach these officers as their Pastors. Is not here an irregular separating of ruling from teaching?
3. Such of the flock as are from their youth kept under by the terrors of God, Ps. 88. Godly Elders, who are not to be rebuked, but intreated as fathers, 1 Tim. 5. 1. need not juridical Church-binding and loosing, and yet need the preaching of the promises. Then in regard of the act and object, exercise of jurisdiction may be severed from teaching.
4. Pastors can exercise no jurisdiction, but only in the Court, but Pastors not in Court may teach pastorally the whole flock.
5. The Churches that meet in a Synod, may exercise the power of non communion toward a Church (which is a Church-governing, for their edification) if the Church obstinately maintain an heresie; and yet the Churches so convened cannot pastorally teach this Church. Let Mr. H. see if he be not as prelatical as Mr. R. If this be Prelacy, I thought Mr. H. had been better versed in the doctrin… of Prelacy.
Mr. H. Grand-fathers and Fathers do bear a relation to the same Children divers ways (So Mr. R.) So then as a Grand-father (saith Mr. H.) cannot be both a Grand-father and a Father to the same One may be both a classical Elder to the associate Churches, and a fixed Elder to a single congregation, as the same man is both a Grand-father and a Father to divers children.Child, neither can an Elder be both a proper Elder and a classical Elder to the same Congregation.
Answ. One man cannot be both a Grand-father and a Father to the same Child. True; nor is one man a proper Elder to his Congregation, and a classical Elder to his own Congregation; for he is formally a classical Elder, not to his own, but to all the associated Congregations.
2. It is but a comparison, and so admits of halting; a Grand-father is a Grand-father to his childrens children, but a Father to his nearest children; so the same man is a classical Elder to all the associated Churches, and a proper and providentially fixed Elder to his own flock; as one was both a Priest to judge between blood and blood, and yet, if the matter was too hard, the same man was a Judge and a Member of the Sanhedrim, Deut. 17.
Mr. H. his last difference: The Iudicature of Classis and Congregations Pag. 107, 108.do not differ formally (saith Mr. R.) but onelyonly in more or lesse extension of power.
Ans. Then there are no specifical acts that the one puts forth, but the other can put forth, as occasion shall require; gradus non variant speciem, then they can ordain officers and excommunicate in the Congregation. He said before, if there be the same office, there is the same definition, and the same causes, to wit, of election, and choice of the Classical, and of the Congregational Elders.
Ans. The difference is only of more or less, as of a River and the whole Element, though divers learned men judge the Congregation to be no governing Church at all, but only their Elders the delegates of the Presbyterial Church, which consisting of divers Congregations is the first governing Church.
2. There are no s…cifick acts which the Elders collectively taken, may not exercise in both the one and the other: but then shall it not follow, th… a single cong…gational Eldership may ordain and ex…mmunicate in one … Congregation there alone divided from the body? for congr…nal Elders cannot teach o…derly (and he is the God of ord…r, … … in his Church) in all the Congregations without a cal….
Nor 2. Exercise the power of a Synod in them all.
3. I … this argument; Archipp… hath the same office to the whole Congregation, and to the single m…mbers who chused him, and whom he feeds; or then he hath so many officer as there be chusing and fed members, …ught by the word and ruled, which is absurd: E…go, as the single vo… of one member made him a Pastor to one, and of a second made him a Pastor to a second, and so forth. So the …otes of the whole made him a Pastor to the whole: for that is the same offic… th… hath the same causes, and the same choice and election, saith M…. …. Ergo, where the same causes are not, the same office cannot be, but one single electing vote, and the electing vot… of the whole Church by Mr. H. his way, cannot be the same causes, for one vote makes him not a Pastor.
2. If Archippu… hath the same office to the whole congregation, and to every single member, then as he … pastoral acts of teaching and ruling to the whole, so to the parts and single members; but this latter is denied by Mr. H, page 104: who saith, That a Pastor cannot put forth Pastoral acts, but in the Church assembly, A strange imagination!
Mr. H. By the same official power (saith Mr. R.) that a Pastor Pag. 108, 109.teacheth his own fleck viva voce, he teacheth others by writing.
Ans This is a new invention that I never heard of before.
1. The official power, by which he preacheth, he receiveth by election, and he may be rejected from it by the people, in case of delinquency.
2. By his official power he may require them to hear, but may not require all Churches to read his writings; and if they offensively refuse to read, he cannot censure them, as he may censure them that refuse to hear the word.
3. If this power of writing of Books, to edifie the Churches, proceed from his office, all Ministers by their office should write A Pastor fixed to a congregation may exercise pastoral acts of writing, preaching to other congregations then his own.Books.
4. That which another may do with as much authority, and more authority of truth, as being more able, yet being out of office, that cannot belong to the officer; but to write books is such.
Ans. 1 Official power is not from election, but from the saying on of the hands of the Elders, 1 Tim. 3. 1, 2. 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2 2. Tit. 1. 5.
2. It is true, that a Pastor cannot require by his office those of another Congregation to hear him preach, and receive the seals from him, nor censure them, if they refuse; but it is a bad consequence of Logick, therefore he doth not exercise these pastoral acts to them by his office, as the Brethren grant.
2. A Minister by his office may require his hearers to give much alms, pray much, read and confer much, both these of his own and other flocks; yet he cannot censure them for not coming up to the highest pitch of these affirmative duties, except he may rebuke them, and so may he do all who are remiss in reading edifying writings, and the Church may censure unsound books, Acts 15. 24.
3. Neither Mr. R. nor any judicious man can teach that either a gift to write Books, or of eminent preaching, praying, exhorting, proceeds out of a power of office; it is a sanctified gift which the Church seeth and judgeth to be in any, before they call him to office; and any gift is by order of nature and time before the office, and so proceeds not from the office; and therefore it is not required that every Pastor should have a gift of writing books, but if the Lord have given it to any, they exercise it as such gifted officers as the Prophets and Apostles, as such Prophets so gifted did write Canonick Scriptures; so are Pastors, if gifted, to write and preach in their way, and both to write and preach by their office. Nor is it good Logick, that all in office should write books. because some by vertue of their office writ books; for a Minister gifted with four Talents is obliged to gain with these four Talents, and that as a Minister by vertue of his office; but it is weak Logick to infer, Ergo, all Ministers by vertue of their office are obliged to gain with four Talents, for many are obliged by vertue of their office to gain with only two to their Lord, and with only one.
4. It was needless to Mr. H. to prove writing of books doth not belong to the power of office, because a learned man out of office may do it with more authority; for Mr. R. had no such intention. For, sure if such a thing agreed to the office-power, as the office-power, then all Officers, Pastors, Elders were obliged to write books, and yet Mr. H. does not very happily prove it, because many learned men unofficed may with more authority of truth write books, then officed men. It is only some officed men he must mean, or it is not true. And then I retort it thus; many officed men may write books with more authority both of truth and of office (and two are better then one) then some unofficed men less learned. Ergo, some gifted Pastors do not as Pastors so gifted, and by vertue of their office relating both to the presbyterian Church, and their own Congregation edifie all the Churches about, by writing books. It follows not.
Mr. H. We are told that Elders are ruling in all Churches Pag. 109.collectively taken, and they are teachers foreign, in some reserved acts, not constant teachers, he that rules teacheth, but always the same flock.
Ans. Take classical Elders as they are congregational Elders, and that is all one as to say, no classical Elders, and then they are no teaching Elders; and all that is gained is this; a classical Elder as he is no classical Elder, is a teaching Elder. And so there is no distinction.
Ans. Such quirks become not grave M. H. What is a Synodical Elder? Mr. H. saith a counselling Elder. I reply, that is no Elder, but a counselling Brother or Sister. But Mr. Cotton and our Brethren say better. A synodical Elder is an Elder synodically teaching the Churches with pastoral and dogmatick authority, without all power of jurisdiction, that is a Synodical Elder, as no Congregational Elder (but as he judgeth in Synod) is a teaching and a ruling Elder. Then I infer, that al Synodical Elder must be both an Elder and no Elder. So animal as he is, foreign, is non h…mo, but he is viv…s. It were easie to weary the Reader with many wild unsolid notions, such like, Ergo, animal is homo, non hom….
Mr. H. So a Pastor may be a teaching Pastor to one Church, and Pag. 110.a ruling Pastor to two or three, or thirty. This is a B…shop.
Obj. The B…shop arrogates thi… to himself alone.
Ans. Shew a rule of Christ, why the Elders may not join many Elders to join with him; for you have no rule of Christ to join many to him to rule many Churches, nor hath he a rule to assume many to him.
Ans. Not any of the separation ever refuted, with that A Pastor teaching one congregation fixedly, and ruling in Collegio other associate Churches is no Prelate.strength of Scripture, Reason, Antiquity, the domineeringg prelacy, as the godly presbyterians in Britain, and the reformed Churches. But so many thousand Independent Monarchies, and two Congregational, or three Elders (for a Deacon is for Tables, Act. 6.) subordinate in point of jurisdiction to none on earth, is a more lively image of a domineering Prelacy, then all the Presbyteries on earth.
2. There is no rule to join other prelates or elders to a prelate: an unlawful officer, having power of jurisdiction, the only proper pastor, and all others are but pastors under him and his delegates. But Mr. H. cannot say that the pastor of a congregation is an unlawful pastor, to whom so many bastard pastors are added, if he do, this shall reflex upon his own way; for the Synodical Elder is a pastorally teaching Elder to many Churches, Antioch, Ierusalem, and also a teaching and ruling Elder to one congregation by our brethrens way: Is the Synodical Elder therefore a pastor of pastors, and a Bishop? And Mr. H. cannot say but that there might have been divers congregations in Ierusalem, and yet unformed Churches; and that the twelve Apostles did feed and rule them all in common, and so shall Peter teach one Congregation at once, and rule many whom he cannot teach (for physically it is impossible he can feed many at once) and yet there was but one Presbytery, and this we shall hear Mr. H. confess hereafter. Ergo, the twelve Apostles and Church-Elders feeding many Congregations not formed with fixed Pastors shall bring in such sort of Bishops, as Mr. H. charges upon me.Pag. 100.
Mr. H. If they do not both rule and teach, they cannot fulf…l their Ministry.
Ans. How is it proved that Pastors cannot fulfil their Ministry, except they both rule all the Churches with acts Synodical, and their own Congregations also?
2. How is it proved that there is a blank in the Ministry, except Pastors both teach and rule these same persons? some of the Congregation are so experiencedly taught of God, that rebukes and censures of excommunication are never drawn out, nor need to be drawn out against them; never Interpreter so expounded Col. 4.Pag. 110. 111.
Mr. H. If Pastors be Pastors and in office when they are out of Court, then have they Church-jurisdiction out of the Court; but the first is true. Also censures sh…uld be dispenced in the Congregation, and there they must preach also.
Ans. Priests when not actu…lly sitting in the Sanhedrim, Members of Parliament are Members sitting in the House; and Pastors are Elders actu primo, when not sitting in the Congregational Judicature; Ergo, they can exercise acts of jurisdiction out of Court, in their Houses; and may the Eldership preach out of the Court? it is a shame to hear such Logick.
2. Belike Mr. H. thinks it unpossible to dispence censures, but the Elders must preach: Ergo, when the people excommunicate their whole Officers, because heretical; they must also preach pastorally: for it is pastoral ruling and teaching which makes a fulfilling of the Ministry: but the conclusion is absurd, let Mr. H. see to it.