Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 5
CHAP. V.
The Argument from the onerousness of Presbyterial Ruling of many Churches, and of Congregationally feeding of others, against the Presbyterial Church, are discussed.
MR. H. The classical course layeth a burden upon teaching Elders, which Gods word never laid, and which they are Pag. 111.not able to discharge; the Apostles appointed Elders in every Church to feed the fl…ck, not the flocks. Mr. R. the way of watching over Sister Churches is as dreadful for onerous, careful, laborious watchfulness in the way of conscience, as to be bound thereto by way of duty; for this bond of lovely and brotherly consociation, which is the foundation of Presbyterial governing, ties us to doe no more in governing and helping other Sister Churches, then if We had no further warrant to promote their ed fication, then the alone relation of brotherly consociation. The sentence is (saith Mr. H.) unperfect; and therefore that it may reach his purpose, I think is must be thus expressed: the bond of brotherly consociation ti…th us to do no more in governing Sister Churches, then brotherly consociation simply can do, is true; but impertinent to Mr. R. his scope, which is to compare the bond and burthen between brotherly Of the onerousness and labour in governing associating Churches; how it is the same with onerousness & labor in counselling united Churches, and how it is not the same.association and office-imposition, as if there were a parity between them.
Ans. 1. The classical course layeth no other burthen upon teaching Elders, by way of united jurisdictions in governing neighbour Churches that are the same body, and have the same seals common, as Mr. Cotton and his own Discipline agrees (as I often cite) then the way of Churches both associated by brotherly association, and by Synodical and authoritative governing, as the same Mr. Cotton teacheth, and Mr. H. saith it is true, but not pertinent; and if it be true, why contend we?
2. That it is not pertinent to my purpose, is denied: Why? Because (saith he) Mr. R. his scope is to make a parity and equality between the burthen of Brotherly consociation and of Officeimposition. But that is a change of my words, and therefore must lie upon Mr. H. as his, not my words, except they be wrested; Nor is it my scope to make an equality in quantity, as if there were, as Mr. H. most mistakingly saith, the like care, onerousness and labour required in duties of Christian watchfulness in a brotherly way, as in duties of office relation: But in equality of onerousness of answering to God for duties, the like conscience, the like sincerity, the like faith of giving an account to God, is required in the one as in the other. And he leaves, upon this account, out the word, in way of conscience, or in fore Dei, and saith my words are imperfect; but wherein they are imperfect, he sheweth not, which maketh his own words imperfect: and therefore he turneth my Negative, That we are to do no more in governing sister-Churches, than in counselling and brotherly advising, into an Affirmative never dreamed of by me. That brotherly association tieth us to do as much, as if we had no further warrant; and t… we are to do by his way as much in brotherly duties to all Christians in other Provinces or Nations, in France, Germany, Holland with whom we can by no physical possibility be present, and whose faces we never saw, as we are to do, by fixed office, to the single congregations to which we have a providential call, by the election and choise of the people, for whom we are to search the Scriptures, and study pleasant words, and for whose souls we are to give an account. But
1. Its a fruitless dispute to prove in sundry pages what Mr. R. grants.
2. If he proved from my words (from his own he may) that these are necessary consequences, he had done as became a Refuter.
3. He cannot from what I say deny, but granteth, That brotherly consociation tieth teaching Elders to do no more in governing neighbouring Churches, than brotherly advising, teaching, admonishing, tieth us unto, in point of onerousness and laborious care, and so it well follows, That there is no more laid upon Presbyterial Elders in governing neighbouring Churches, than is laid upon their counselling, and brotherly advising Elders, in point of daily occurring scandals, as is clear in the Rise of Familists, Anabaptists, Antinomians, &c. and many scandalous persons arising in sundry Churches lying together.
4. The care and onerousness in brotherly watching, essentially, The obligatition to brotherly help to my brother, though it be as onerous as an obligation of teaching the flock, it doth not tie me to the use of all the means positively to go all the world over, and warn and admonish as the other doth.formally in rendring an account to God, as being keepers to our Brethren all the world over, with whom we converse in other congregations, haply at our door, and occasionally, is as binding before God, as the care of teaching Elders in exercising power of Jurisdiction in Collegio, and in things common to divers Churches; but it follows not, that Christian love tieth me to all the positive means of warning my brother to go to Germany, to America, to try and admonish all the scandals that are committed there.
5. This same Argument is thus retorted upon Mr. H. if the Apostles, as Church-members, as Believers, be obliged all the world over, to eat the Lords Supper, as Paul did at Troas, Acts 20. 11. a… Corinth, 1 Cor. 10. 17 and in all the Churches on earth, to eat and receive the Lo… Supper, not as an Apostle with an Apostolick, but with a faith common to all Christians; then must he be obliged as a Christian with the like care and onerousness to leave his calling of an Apostle & to go to all places on earth, to remember the Lords death, and as a Christian to lay down preaching, planting of Churches, working of miracles, and to teach, rebuke, as a Christian, in all places. Its not enough to say, That the Apostles
1. Were priviledged persons, and so might eat the Lords Supper all the world over, for they eat not the Lords Supper as Apostles were t…ed not as Apostles, but as Christians to eat the Lords Supper in all Churches all the world over.Apostles, but as believers, who were to try and examine themselves, and so d…ncerningly to remember the Lords death until he come again, as other believers were.
2. Is it enough to say, They were occasionally onelyonly to discharge these Christian duties, as they should be locally present, for so are teaching Elders to perform official duties to these neighbour Churches with whom they occasionally converse in the occasional emergency of scandals: and if Pastors were in Africa or America, they might, without any new ordination or official call, preach and govern as Physicians of souls. But by Mr. H. his way, the Lord in the day of Judgment might say, Thou wast a member of that body, with which thou hadst a right to …at the Lords Supper in all Churches on earth; therefore I require at thy hand the blood of them that are lost in America, because thou watched not over all the Christians on earth, which is physically impossible. And I require at Paul preaching in the the W…st, th… blood of such as perished, when he was 300 miles absent from them, for Paul had an officiall call to all the believers on earth. As Mr. H. saith, our Presbyterial Elders must give an account for souls that are lost in all the Presbyterial, Provincial and National Churches on earth, and go all the world over to cure scandals, leaving their own calling of Merchandize. But by this (saith Mr. H pag. 115.) a pastoral care is f…r more enerous and laborious than Christian and brotherly care in some sense. I grant all, and there is nothing proved against me, who say, that this ties teaching Elders to no more in governing Sister Churches, in point of binding the conscience to answer for them, as far as they have power in matter of common concernment, for the wel being of all the near hand associated Churches, then brotherly consociation can do. And Mr. H. page 112. saith this is true, and yet in some sense pastoral care is far more onerous and laborious, to wit, in using more means in watching fixedly over a Congregation, by constant preaching in season, and out of season, in standying pleasant words, administring the Sacraments, &c. Nor did I ever say any thing to the contrary.
Mr. H. An eminently gifted man in an Island, where no Pastors Pag. 115, 116.are, is no less (saith Mr. R.) tyed in conscience in the extraordinary imployment of his calling, then if he were formally ordained and chosen their Pastor. In some extraordinary cases a gift and Christian love ties even as much to onerousness in using means to save, at the office it self. See what I add in that place, (Mr H. saith) then this gifted man in an Island, in using his generall calling as a Christian, destroyes his particular, as a Merchant, and turn Minister. 2. This is to confound the general and particular calling.
Ans. Not at all, for in this case, the extraordinary necessity of gaining souls, when other Pastors cannot be had; and ordination and election by that means are invincibly wanting hic & nunc, turns his Christian calling in place and room of the particular calling of a Pastor; and so Mr. R. said well, that in some extraordinary case like this, The naked R…lation of Iurisdiction addeth nothing to care and onerousness in point of labour, by preaching the Gospel.
Mr. H. If we have a divine command (saith Mr. R.) to be our brethrens k…epers, then our Christian watch in that regard requires Pag. 114, 115.as much onerousness and care as office watch. It follows not (saith Mr. H.) am I bound by office to watch no more over the people left to my pastoral care, then as a Christian over these of another Province, whom I am occasionally only to gain, and whose faces I never saw.
Ans. Mr. H. leaves out the words, in point of conscience to answer for them to God, Which I have. Otherwise in regard of A man is tyed to use more means for feeding the single fl…ck, that he is a fixed Pastor unto, then as a christian he is to use toward other churches.using of more means, he is obliged to more constant feeding, by word, seals, dayly watching over the single flock, then over all Christians on the other side of the Sea, and some thousand miles distant from him.
But if the foundation of governing classical Churches be the love and union of the members of one body of Christ, then there is much care, onerousness, and labour, which is required in brotherly consociation to help, as the care & onerousness which is required in officership.
Mr. H. Ans. The proposition hath no truth, because I love all consociated in one Synod, whom I never saw, and with whom I could never meet to do good, or receive good. But if I should be bound to put forth the like onerous and laborious care for their spiritual good, as for these, to whom by way of office I am bound in the same Congregation. Then officers must either do too little, or be bound to do too much.
Ans. This is neither my Argument, nor my words: my words are, Par. 1 pag. 332. Now if we distinguish ONEROUSNESS, CARE and LABOUR by way of jurisdiction, the former is as GREAT IN FORO DEI, in the Court of conscience, as the latter. These words are left out by Mr. H. qua fide; let the Reader judge; for the toil, care, onerousness and labour in point of conscience in the kind, and sphere; I urge in both, by necessity of a divine command: but the like care, onerousness and labour in quantity, in the use of more means, in constant preaching, personal comforting, to all the Christians on earth, as to the single congregation, I utterly deny. But can Mr. H. deny but the Apostles and Brethren, Act. 15. did ow as much care, onerousness, and labour in a binding conscientious way in laying on synodical burdens, which bind not onelyonly (saith Mr. Cotton) materially for the weight of the matter imposed by divine Mr. Cotton Keys of the Kingdom, c. 6. pag. 25.precept, but also formally from the authority of the Synod, upon the Churches of Ierusalem, Antioch, Syria, Cilicia, as any pastor ows to his single flock; and that because these Churches are all one consociated body? and yet Elders of the Synod were never to see the faces of all these members of the Churches.
And I put this quere to the Brethren, what warrant of Christ is there that a member of an Independent Church ow Church-care to watch, teach, admonish, rebuke, comfort, as Col. 3. 16. Heb. 3. 13. 1 Thes. 5 14. to a fellow member of the same congregation only, and ow no Church-care to another brother, dwelling in the same house with him, having with him the same faith, the same baptism, the same Lord, the same covenant of Grace, the same Saviour, only because he is a member of another Independent Church?
Mr. H. Arg. 5. If they be Pastors over all the Congregations Pag. 117.of the circuit, then they were new chosen by the Congregations, or not, &c.
Ans. This is a repeated blast of an old horn; there is this required, that Churches about, by their silence approve him as Pastor to one single Congregation; but that all Congregations make a special election of him to be their fixed Pastor, is no more required, then that the Churches of Antioch and Ierusalem chose the Apostles and Elders, who yet Act. 15. exercise pastoral and official acts over them by the grant of Mr. Cotton and our Brethren.
They are Elders of Ephesus, i. e. of enery Congregation of the Pag. 117. 118.combination, as all the Kings, if they were met in one royal Court to govern the Nations, in things of common concernment to all, yet are called the Kings of the Nations. These are words (saith Mr. H. to darken:) the Elders met here, have a new power distinct from the power over their several Congregations, a Commission, i. e. a new Creature. The Kings if so convened, have a joynt power of confederate Princes, to act in things of common concernment, and if that power were distinct from the particular power that they have over their own territories, the comparison were parallel.
Ans. We may suppose such a convention of Kings, the Commissioners A commission in a Presbytery is no new office, but apower of order appointed by the God of order.or M…ssengers of the Churches have no new office, but only are met to determin of such a thing as disturbs the Churches, Act. 15 5. they differ as Elders, and such Elders sent and nominate by the Church, and act as Elders by the same official power common to Elders that are not sent, and are called by the Church Apostles and Elders, Act. 15. 23. & 16. 4. & 21. 18, 25. then sending and commissionating is a condition of order appointed by the God of order, no devise of men: and the Churches submit to them as to no new office.
But 1. as to the messengers of the Church, and gracious and sound Elders.
2. If they speak according to the Law and the testimony, not otherwise, and the answer is as much against Act. 15. and against Mr. Cotton and all that are for Synods, either juridical or consultative, as against Mr. R. for they go to Synods, who so go by a new power of order, not by a new office.
Mr. H. This course nullifies the power of Elders, and propl…f a Pag. 119, 120.Congregation, and their proceeding in a righteous way; for the Classis may judge a member to be excommunicated, whom the Congregation judgeth. and that truely not worthy of that censure; here Due right of Presbytery. The votes of associated Churches added to the votes of the Elders of a congregation strengtheneth, but hindereth not right proceeding, except by accident.the power of Elders and people which act in a way of Christ is wholly hindered.
Ans. This weak Argument is fully answered by me before; That Government, which of its own nature hinders and nullifies the righteous proceeding of the Congregation is not a power from Christ. True; but now the assumption is false: for the presbyterial power added to the just power of a Congregation does strengthen, and not nullifie the power of the Congregation That Government, which by accid…nt, and abuse of their power in over voting two Elders, who proceed according to the rule of Christ, hinders and nullifies right proceeding in on… single act, is not from Christ, is most false: For because an abused power, and abused government is not from Christ, it follows not that the power and government it self is not from God. I added an answer Due Right. p. 335.to this in my Book which Mr. H. passeth over in silence. Suppose the Congregation and Synod agree in the truth, as they do Act. 15. Will you say that Peter, Paul and Iames, their power is nullified, and their three votes are swallowed up in that greater convention; because to their power is added in this dogmatical determination, the power and voices of the rest of the Apostles and Elders; yea, and some say of the whole Church, Act. 15. 2, 6, 25. & 16. 4. & 21. 18, 25. So say that the Congregation of Thyatira (suppose it so to be) by assuming to themselves a huge number of Elders and visible Saints shall by over-voting the former Congregation, conclude that Iesabel shall still teach and seduce. Mr. H. cannot say, that the added power of the Elders and Members of it self is not of Christ, but rather their abusing of their power in that wicked act, is not from Christ; for the adding to the Church two thousand to three thousand, to make five thousand is lawful, Act. 5.
Mr. H. To this Mr. R. answers, de jure, the power of the greater Pag. 120.in this case ought to be swallowed up of the two voices of the Elders of the Congregation. But saith Mr. H. so the weaker should overbear the stronger, the part the whole.
2. This opens a gap to endless dissention, the fewer say we have the truth, the other, we have the truth, and who shall be the Iudge?
Aus. Mr. A. citeth my words (as frequently elsewhere) so here imperfectly, and mutilates the sense, if their power and voices be against the truth; it is fit that many voices be swallowed up by two, Iure in fore Dei: for Christ gave no power to thirty to erre, and to excommunicate an innocent person, he hath given no power, but to edifica…ion, 2 Cor. 10. 8. 1 Cor. 5. 4, 5. But I said not that Iure Ecclesiastico, the fewer, and the part, should overbear the many, and the whole. And what will Mr. H. say, the fewer names in Sardis judge that a Iezabel should be excommunicated; the whole saith no. The fewer say we have truth, the whole say, we have truth; by the brethrens way no remedy, but be the matter heresie, or scandals, incest and parricide, the larger part of every single Congregation in the midst of 24. sound Churches hath a power independent, and from which there is no appeal on earth, to excommunicate the few names that are in Sardis and keep their garments clean. If ye say, so is it in a National, in an Oecumenick Councel by the The sounder part of the Church is the Church.Presbyterian way:
I answer in either the one or the other; if there be a manifest departing from the faith, and the man of sin sit in the Temple of God, and the fornications of Babel be multiplyed, the fewer and weaker being Sa…ior pars Ecclesiae, the sounder part are (as Mr. H. saith, Iure in the Court of Heaven) the Church.
Mr. H. Arg. 7. This course cannot attain its end appointed by Pag. 121.our Saviour, whose wisedom fails not, nor can be frustrate in its preparation. But the Classis excommunicating, when the Elders and Congregation refuse to submit, would be of no force.
Ans. Let the larger part of the Congregation by three votes How the ordinances are not conttary to the Wisedome of Christ though they attain not always finem operis.excommunicate a godly sound man, and descern an Arch-heretick to preach, as a Godly Socinian; Where is the end of Christ attained by you?
2. It is an Arminian and unsound tenet to condemn the wisdom of Christ, because he draws not his Ordinances, Gospel, Promises, Precepts, Seals, Censures, according to his irresistable Decree, by which the infinitly wise Lord cannot come short of his end intended of the Ordinances themselves, finem operantis; for his Counsels and Decrees must stand, Isa. 14. 26, 27. Ps. 33. 10, 11. Rom. 9. 19. and who hath believed our report? Isa. 53. 1. Some, yea many stumble at Christ and the Word, Isa. 8. 14, 15. 1 Pet. 2. 8. Rom. 9. Shall we accuse the Ordinances, the Gospel and Seals, because God attains not the end, the Salvation of the hearers? How unjust is it to accuse the Wisedom of God for this sinful folly of men?
But the Lord draws his ordinances and seals according to his approving will, and thereby his Wisdom attains the end, finem operis, which is to save and render unexcusable; and though the Classis be divided from the Congregation, and the Congregation be divided, the fewer keeping the rule, and the greater number erring: this is no more a just ground of challenging the immaculate and spotless Wisedom of God in the ordinance of Presbyterial censuring, then we may challenge Christs coming in the world, to bring the sword, not peace, Matth. 10. 34. his ordinances are media nata apta, of their own nature apt to bring union between the Classis and the Congregation; if it fall out otherwise, the blame is in mens corruption.
There were answers given to these Arguments by me; Mr. H. would not set them down, nor remove them, as he answers, but in halfs and parts.