Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3, Discourse (4 of 5)

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3 · Discourse (4 of 5)

p. 252N. C.

This Pride doth not become you.

C.

I can ſee nothing of that in this cenſure. But if there were, you of all other people ſhould wink at it, who by his own confeſſion, are the proudeſt men in the Nation.

N. C.

O abominable! He never was ſo mad yet, as to grant you that.

C.

What think you of thoſe words. If the Non conformiſt at this day be thought too high and too proud, he only groweth like Camomile, becauſe he is trod and trampled upon; for of Camomile it is ſaid, the more it is trodden on, the more it grows.

p. 253N. C.

I remember them, p. 281. But know not what you will make of them.

C.

No? It is a plain demonſtration, according to his reaſoning, that they are grown intolerably high and proud; becauſe they are (as he would have you believe) intolerably afflicted and diſtreſſed, p. 249. A moſt excellent improvement of Affliction! and arguing much of the Power of godlineſs!

N. C.

Come, Sir, jeer no more at godlineſs; for you have done it too much already. Your Book is an exact method and platform to extirpate practical holineſs uuPreface. pag. 12.—What makes you giggle in ſo ſerious a buſineſs?

C.

I cannot but laugh a little at the laborious folly of this mans ſpight. This is a mere device to draw the peoples minds from attending to what I ſay, and to ſtir up their paſſion againſt me, as an Enemy and hater of godlineſs.

N, C.

No; He doth not think you to be ſuch an Enemy to Religion, as your Book would ſeem to import xxIb. pag. 15., but rather hopes you are a good man yyIb. p. 41. and Book. pag. 3..

C.

That's the thing I was going to ſay. He overthrows all his accuſation, in two words; by granting me to be Religious, and j…dicious too p. 105. For how is it poſſible, that a Godly man ſhould contrive a way moſt effectual to root up godlineſs, and —

p. 254N. C.

Stay.

C,

You will revoke this favourable opinion of me, now that you ſee whither it will carry you.

N. C.

He ſaith, he hath a great deſire to conſtrain himſelf to think, that you may poſſibly be wiſe in Solomon's ſenſe, that is, fear the Lord, p. 41.

C.

He was, I obſerved, at the laſt, very fearful, leſt he ſhould have judged too well of me; and therefore, as you ſay, doth but conſtrain himſelf, nay, hath only a great deſire to conſtrain himſelf (but, it ſeems, would not do it) and that but to think that it is poſſible, I may be a good man. With which I am very well contented, and if you pleaſe, I will give him all his good hopes of me back again, having no need at all of them. It is ſufficient for me, that he acknowledges, he is far from thinking it was my deſign to overthrow piety, though he is ſure it is the end of my Book zzPreface. pag. 12.. For mark, I beſeech you, the abſurdity of this. How is it poſſible for a man by mere chance, having no ſuch deſign in his head, to form ſo many Aphoriſms, Maxims, and Stratagems, all tending to one and the ſame end, viz. the ſubverting of godlineſs and introducing impiety; and that ſo exactly, methodically, and pertinently aaIb. pag. 15., as nothing can be more fitted for this purpoſe? Make out this to me, if you p. 255can, for I proteſt to you, I am utterly to ſeek how this ſhould come to paſs. There muſt be a deſign of the Author in it, or elſe he could never have done it with as much skill as Campanella ſhewed, when he went to work for the extirpating Proteſtantiſm, and ſetling Popery throughout England bbIb.. Nay, no Engineer, he tells you, could have given more proper counſel how to ſlight any fort, or ſtrong hold, and how to level it with the ground, than I have given, how true Religion may be plucked up root and branch.

N. C.

Theſe things, I confeſs, do not hang well together.

C.

Malice we ſee wants wit. And after all his labour, he hath but brought forth the Apothecaries Beaſt, which Julian the Pelagian upbraided St. Auſtin withal. A creature of wonderful ſtrange properties, as he made his Patient believe, and promiſed he ſhould ſee the next day, which before morning came had eaten up her ſelf. For, if I went ſo judiciouſly and accurately to work to overthrow all godlineſs, it muſt be my deſign to overthrow it; but he is far from thinking that; and therefore there are no ſuch exact Aphoriſms and Stratagems, but his better thoughts have deſtroyed thoſe vain imaginations, unleſs you can believe that Books may be made by ſhuffling ſo many Letters together; or Batteries and Engines raiſed, p. 256with throwing ſo many skuttles full of dirt, and ſo many bundles of ſticks together on a heap.

N. C.

But the God of this world, I remember, he ſays, ſo for the preſent blinded your eyes. p. 15.

C.

What? That I ſhould contrive all this and never know it? The good man hath plung'd himſelf ſo deep in a contradiction, that he is fain to fly to the Devil to help him out. But, I pray, who gave him Authority to ſtretch the Devils power ſo far, that it may be thought to do the ſame upon a Believer, which the Apoſtle ſaith, he did upon Infidels? And what is there that can blind any mans eyes, but Covetouſneſs, Luſt, Ambition, Anger, Hatred, or ſome ſuch evil affection or paſſion? Which if the Faith of Chriſt have not purged out of my heart, I have no deſire to conſtrain my ſelf to think that it is poſſible I am a good Chriſtian. The very bottom of the buſineſs is this: It is not godlineſs, but themſelves for which he is ſo much concerned and keeps all this ſtir. For the Queſtion is not, whether we ſhall all heartily and earneſtly ſtudy to be Godly, that is, to love and obey our Creator above all things, according to the Goſpel of Jeſus Chriſt; but whether you be the only godly, or ſo much beyond all others, as you imagine? and whether that be the Power of p. 257godlineſs, which is vulgarly called by that name. This I denied; and this made him ſo angry. Notwithſtanding which I ſtill believe, that many among us, whom ſome of you make little account of, are more thoroughly and ſubſtantially good, than many among you, upon whom you liberally beſtow that name; who value themſelves more upon the ſcore of keeping Days, repeating Sermons, talking of Religion and Experiences, than for Juſtice, Charity, ſpeaking Truth, Peaceableneſs, Meekneſs, Obedience, and ſuch like virtues, to which I find them very great ſtrangers. Now in ſtead of acknowledging the emptineſs of the former without the latter, and how much the poor people have been coſened by forms of Religion, and canting Phraſes, which ſome of your ſelves have confeſſed, when it would ſerve their turn—

N. C.

Where did they acknowledg it?

C.

Some Officers of the Army told the reſt, that ſetting a part days for ſeeking of God, when the way is not good, will not hereafter blind Engliſh mens eyes. Doing things unwarrantably, and then intituling God to them, as they will never the more be owned by him, ſo they will be never the more acceptable to diſcerning men ccHumble repreſentation to the Lieft. Gen. Nov. 1. 1659.. Thus alſo the pureſt of you all thought it no profaneſs heretofore to unmask the hypocriſie of p. 258ſome great Zealots in Religion (as they thought it) and expoſe their canting to ſcorn. To omit Mr. Edward's, (for brevity ſake) the Author of the Image of our Reforming Times ddOr J…hu in his proper Colours. 1654. p. 11, 12., ſet out, you know whom, under another name in this manner; Jehu will have a word for all his Actions, and do all according to the mind of the Lord. O Heavenly man, whoſe tongue is tipt with Scripture, the Experiences of the Saints, and the Revelation of the Prophets! But now (as I was going to ſay before you interrupted me) we have found a man that would fain blind the eyes of Engliſh-men as much as ever; and in ſtead of confeſſing honeſtly, as others have done, that a great many walk in a vain ſhow and image of godlineſs, who deny the true power of it; he amuſes you with a long diſcourſe of a Deſign laid to overthrow all Religion, root and branch: And for that end, preſents you with a great many Maximes and Aphoriſms, compoſed with much art to that wicked purpoſe: Such as theſe; Let there be no Godly Diſcourſe; Let keeping of Days of Faſting and Prayer be jured; Let mirth and jollity be in incouraged. Teach men to diſtruſt their ſpiritual ſenſes; with divers others of the ſame Nature. Which are none of mine; as every one may ſee that can read a Book: But he throws in your faces the ſnivel of his own noſe; and would make you believe it is not the excrement of his brain, but of mine.

p. 259N. C.

How came ſuch a word to drop from your mouth?

C.

Are they uncivil?

N. C.

I doubt they will be thought ſo.

C.

They are the words of Mr. Baxter eePoſtſcript to his Book of the True Catholick Church. pag. 283., without any alteration, to another man who accuſed him abſurdly; and may as well be applied to this. Who after he had filled a great part of his Book with ſuch ſenſeleſs ſtuff as I now ment oned, makes a long ſnufling Preface to the ſame effect. And ſome of your people, I am told, receive it with as much contentment, as if he had come out of that Country, where (if we will believe a ſtory ffLucian. Ver. Hiſt. Lib. 1.like his Diſcourſe) the dropping of the peoples Noſes, is ſweeter than Honey.

N. C.

You did well to ſay ſome; for all have no ſuch good opinion of it.

C.

There is no man, that being puft up with a good opinion of himſelf, ſpeaks with confidence and zeal, but will find ſome admirers; though his Noddle be lighter than an Oak Apple; and as void of wit as Cockles are of meat in the wane of the Moon. A ſad thing indeed it is, that the world ſhould be troubled and abuſed by ſome men of emptineſs and noiſe: but ſo it always was, and we muſt be contented with it. Nay, grave and ſolemn perſons, are ſometimes carried with a furious zeal to accuſe their oppoſites, of ſuch impieties as never entred into their thoughts: and will make their p. 260Books ſpeak, what the Authors never ſo much as dreamt. Mr. Calvin and other Reformers (it is poſſible Philagathus may know) were charged with depraving and adulterating the ſenſe of the Holy Scriptures, which give teſtimony to the Deity of our Saviour Chriſt. And there is one ggFeu-ar…entius his Notes upon …he Fragments of …renaeus. …ag. 508.who hath given us a Beadrole of them longer than that of the Aphoriſms, which this new zealot hath fanſied to himſelf, and formed out of my Book. In his Comments alſo upon the Epiſtle of Sr. Jude, writing on thoſe words, v. 4. Ungodly Men, he tells us among other things, that Calvin would have the Holy Trinity, neither to be adored, nor invocated hhComment. in Epiſt. …udae. …595 …ag. 87.. And upon thoſe words, denying the Lord Jeſus Chriſt, he gives us a Catalogue of the Old and New Hereticks, who oppoſed the Deity and Majeſty of our Saviour; and after Simon Magus, Menander, and the reſt of that Rabble, come Luther, Calvin, and their followers, as men that preached and writ much againſt the Myſtery of the Trinity, the Majeſty of God the Father, and the Deity of Chriſt and of the Holy Ghoſt iiIb. …ag. 117.. But what need I go ſo far back for inſtances of this kind, when it is but a few years ago, ſince Mr. Baxter was ſolemnly accuſed for a Papiſt by Mr. Crandon? And Mr. Eyre of Salisbury endeavoured to perſwade the world, that when he wrote againſt the Antinomians he meant Antipapiſts kkConfeſſ. … Faith. …ag. 6.; juſt as this man p. 261would perſwade you, that when I write againſt N. C. I mean Religious people, and ſuch as oppoſe profaneſs. Nay, he made ſuch a Monſter of him, as if you ſhould conceive the Body of a Horſe to be joined to the Head of a Man; for he ſaid, he was a Socinian, Papiſt, and Jeſuite: And, that he was not only a down right Papiſt, but one of the groſſer ſort; and that he ſubtilly endeavoured the Propagation of Popery, and all his pretences to the contrary were but Jeſuitical diſſembling; and laſtly, that no Papiſt ſpoke more of Merit than he did. Others undertook to conjure the Devil of Pelagianiſm out of him, as he himſelf alſo tells us llDiſputations about the right t… Sacraments. pag. 520.. And another mmVindication of … Sir Hen. Vane. 1659.accuſes him of calumnies and invectives againſt the moſt eminent Proteſtants; reckoning up withal eight godly men (whoſe names he mentions) that had writ againſt him. And I find mention in Mr. Baxter of three more (whoſe names are not there) beſide, Mr. Blake, which make them up a doſſen. And that you have 13. to the doſſen, I may caſt in Mr. Will. Lyford, who put him into the black bill of thoſe who are guilty of Errors and Hereſies, becauſe of ſome opinions of his about the ſin againſt the holy Ghoſt. Nay, ſome boldly publiſhed him to be a Subverter of Fundamentals (obſerve it) even then when he was conſtrained to be as confident, that he ſhould ſubvert the foundation it ſelf, if he ſhould think otherways p. 262nnConfeſſ. of Faith pag. 111.. What need I add more, to ſhew the mad zeal of ſome Ignorant people, than theſe memorable words of his? I look not to ſcape the fangs of ſuch excepters, if I ſay, that I believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghoſt; for no doubt, but ſome of them can find Hereſie, or ſomewhat that countenances it, in this ooAppendix to the Diſp. of the Sacraments. pag. 487.. They love to quarrel with every thing, when they have once taken a pique at a Book: and let your writing be never ſo innocent, they ſmell ſome dangerous deſign in it. For which purpoſe, you will ſcarce find a man who hath a better noſe than this caviller; who, either for want of underſtanding, or elſe through paſſion and hatred, miſinterprets and perverts every thing that he meddles withal.

N. C.

You make him a ſtrange man.

C.

I'le prove it to purpoſe, before we have done; and hope that all his clamours, will be of no more force to make you believe, that I have laid any platform to batter down all godlineſs, than the many Volumns writ againſt Mr. Baxter will perſwade you, he is a Papiſt, a Subverter of the Faith, and calumniator of Proteſtant Divines. For there is no more impiety in my Book, than there is Popery in his; nor will any body have ſuch a thought, unleſs it be ſuch as come to ſuck poyſon, and food for their cenſuring opinionative zeal, out of the Books they read ppThey are his words concerning one of his..

p. 263N. C.

Some men love to be doing—

C.

Though it be but to diſturb thoſe things which lie well enough already. And they fanſie they are doing ſome mighty ſervice to the world, merely becauſe they put themſelves to a great deal of trouble. Witneſs this buſie man, whoſe pains to remove this ſtumbling-block out of the way (as he calls it) is altogether as idle, as was the labour of Marchetto Piombino: who going to Rome to ſeek a Maſter, and lighting by chance upon a ſtone in the way, began to ſpurn it with his foot; and in this imployment ſpent ſo much of his time, that when all his companions returned back, they found him ſtill troubled about this ſtone; which he was reſolved, he ſaid, to ſpurn as far as Rome, and there thruſt it into the walls ſo far, that it ſhould never more annoy ſuch ſtrangers as travailed thither.

N. C.

Pray do not imitate him; but let us paſs by this occaſion of offence, which hath turned us out of our way I am ſure; for I was going to tell you, that you are thought to have arrived to the higheſt degree of Pride.

C.

To walk, you had better have ſaid, on the Battlements of Pride.

N. C.

Pray hear me ſeriouſly: for it is no laughing matter.

C.

If the power of laughing, as a very ſerious and holy Divine qqDr. Jackſon of the Cath. Church. pag. 176.of our own ſaid a p. 264great while ago, proceed from the nature of man, and the nature of man conſiſt in Reaſon, it will be very hard for any man to refrain laughing, that hath but ſo much reaſon as to conſider the vanity of this mans Concluſions. The caſe is this; Becauſe in writing a Diſcourſe between two perſons of oppoſite perſwaſions and parties, I repreſented the one commending his Pariſh Prieſt (whom he muſt be ſuppoſed to hear) or rather vindicating him from that contempt and ſcorn which the other party poured on him, he infers that I commend my ſelf, and boaſt of my own reaſon and skill in the holy Scripture. He had beſt go and teach his Mother to ſuck; inſtruct the Univerſity in a new way of drawing concluſions; for no body ever learnt any ſuch Logick there. And till this upſtart Reformer ſet Pen to Paper, any body might make two men maintain a Dialogue as long as he pleaſed, of matters diſputed between the Parties they adhered to, and never be thought he ſpoke of two ſingle perſons only. But the ſport of it is; Our new Doctor will have that which is ſaid of the N. C. in our Debate to reach to all and every one of that party, or elſe it ſignifies nothing; but what is ſaid of the C. muſt be confined to a ſingle perſon, and that's my ſelf alone. In good time he may make an incomparable p. 265Expounder of Books, if he do but follow (as he hath begun) thoſe Rules which paſſion and ſpight will dictate to him, and never let a ſober thought enter into his head. For (mark it again) after he hath ſo often ſtretcht what is ſaid againſt the N.C. to every one of them, he can find in his heart at ſome turns to reſtrain my words to one ſingle perſon; even then when I ſpeak in the plural number. Such is the perverſneſs of his humour, that he will interpret what I ſay, quite contrary ways, if thereby he can lay hold of any occaſion to cavil, and load me with the ill will and hatred of his credulous Companions. As, for example, when he takes notice of what I ſaid concerning the black and white caps upon ſome N. C. Miniſters heads rrP. 88. of his Book., he preſently tells you (in ſpight of all that he had ſaid himſelf, and of the large neſs of my words) that it is ſtrongly conjectured who is the mark I aimed at, and that it is his good head-piece I am more offended with, than his caps and lace. But he hath always as ill luck in his conjectures as in his reaſonings. For I had no particular man in my thoughts, I aſſure you; and, to confeſs the truth, ſpoke only from what I remembred ſince I was a boy, and from their pictures in Books, not from any obſervation ſince I was a man. As for any of their head-peices, I neither fear nor envy them; though they were as good as Mambrino's golden Helmet. p. 266Only I muſt remember you, that men of ſuch like brains as his, have as little judgment in head-pieces, as that D…n, who took a Barbers baſon, for that impenetrable Helmet. Nor can I look upon this whole invention of his otherwiſe, than as a malicious piece of his folly, which would reproach me as effectually as he was able, and lay all the blots, which his little wit could deviſe, upon my reputation. But I may reſt contented with it; for far better men, than I ſhall ever be, have been thus dealt withal by ill nature, when it could only cavil, even then when they wrote no Dialogues. The Reverend Profeſſers and Miniſters of Aberdene, for inſtance, when they only told the Miniſters who came to urge the Covenant, that there were other means and more effectual than their Covenant, to uſe for holding men from Popery, mentioning in particular, extraordinary Humiliations, frequent Prayer, amendment of Life, diligence in Preaching, and ſearching the Scriptures ssReply the Eleventh. 1638.; they preſently received this Anſwer to their Reply, You have taken an ample teſtimony to your ſelves of pains in diſputing, writing, and preaching, and in doing all things that can be expected from the moſt zealous; of frequent prayer to God, of humbling your ſelves before him, of your holineſs of life and converſation, &c. As if they had arrogated to themſelves ſome ſingularity in uſing theſe p. 267means, when they only ſaid, that there were ſuch means which might and ought to be uſed, not that they were eminent above others in the diligent uſe of them. If either they or I had ſaid as this man doth, there is one of great moderation, but he ſhall be nameleſs, ttP. 225. of his Book.&c. you might have ſuſpected we meant our ſelves, and wrote our own commendation, which is very familiar with him, not only in this Book, but alſo in others; where he tells you, the whole tenor of his converſation and practice hath alway proclaimed him a moderate man, of a reconciling ſpirit, and of an healing temper uuPreface to London's Reſurrection.. Without all doubt: He hath given us an ample teſtimony of it in this New Book. In which, me thinks, it looks far more like boaſting than any thing I have ſaid, to tell us in how ſhort a time he finiſhed this great work; having in leſs than ſix weeks ſpace xxPag. ult. of the Sober Anſwer.demoliſhed a great many Fortreſſes, Bulwarks, and Strong holds; and carried into captivity every notion that exalted it ſelf againſt Truth and Godlineſs, defeated and confuted ſo many Stratagems, Maximes, and Aphoriſms, as he hath muſtered up in his Preface; and yet he hath not mentioned all, as he himſelf aſſures you yyPreface. pag. 24.. There are many other exploits that he hath performed beſides theſe; He hath rectified miſtakes, given an account of the N. C. opinions, of the reaſons of their actions, of the method of repairing breaches; and by the way told us, p. 268the Hinge of the Controverſie, the Knot of the Queſtion zzPreface. pag. 40., with many fine knacks beſide; all which he hath accompliſhed ſooner by a third part, than a Bitch can bring you forth a litter of Puppies. Who could have ſaid more of him, than he hath ſaid of himſelf? If this be modeſty, it will be hard to find a man that can compare with him i… this great virtue. He is the fitteſt Meſſenger that could be ſent to buffet me for my ſpiritual pride: a diſeaſe, I perceive, ſo incide… to men of his Education, even when they have very little to be proud of; that he imagines we cannot live without it, but muſt rather ſwell to ſuch a bigneſs, that we are ſai… to eaſe and vent our ſelves in boaſting. But I muſt take leave to tell you, that my breeding hath been otherways; having been taught from the beginning, to lay the foundation of all true wiſdom and goodneſs i… humility of mind, and not to think it ſo great a buſines, if I underſtood a little more than the vulgar people. And ſince he conſtrains me to ſay a few words of my ſelf, I ſhall, without intrenching, I hope, upon any rule of modeſty, add thus much; that of all other follies, I find my ſelf the leaſt inclined to that which he accuſes me of, being ſtill diſpoſed at this day rather to be a learner, than an inſtructor of others. And as I have not one jot the worſe opinion of my ſelf, for all that he hath blattered againſt p. 269me, ſo I have not one jot the better opinion of my ſelf, for all the praiſe which, he ſaith, others beſtow upon me. I have other and truer meaſures of my ſelf than he or they can take of me: and know very well, that I am juſt the ſame man I was, before I heard either of the one or of the other, and that they can neither add unto, nor take away from my ſtature.

N. C.

Did you not think too highly of your abilities, when you thought no match fit for you, but a whole Aſſembly of Divines?

C.

Thus Mr. Baxter was told heretofore that his words implied, he took himſelf to be more judicious, holy, and experienced than the Aſſembly aaDiſput. of the Sacraments. pag. 522., and I know not how many more. Which Anſwer was as good as any, to make thoſe who would not be at the trouble to try all things, to think him to be both proud and ignorant. But I cannot chuſe but wonder a little at the impudent folly of this man in repeating this charge ſo often bbPag. 81, 129, 195, 196.. Do not they take the liberty when they liſt to diſpute againſt whole Councils of greater men? Doth not this little Sophiſter himſelf take ſo much upon him, as to reprove the Ʋniverſities of this Kingdom, for negligence and injuſtice too in beſtowing degrees ccP. 241. where he ſaith, they let Papiſts ſlip into Degrees & withhold them from N. C. How he can make good his charge I know not.? Nay, Did they not think themſelves fit to reform all the world, and hope that their Goſpel-Covenant ſhould fly to the ends of the Earth ddContinuation. pag. 148, 149.? What Infallible Chair then, I p. 270beſeech you, was there in this Aſſembly, that all muſt ſubmit unto; and no man date to open his mouth againſt? I know the uſual Prayer of your Preachers was, when they firſt met together, that God would ſhew them the pattern in the Mount eeModeſt offer. pag. 1, 1644.. And Mr. J. Saltmarſh himſelf addreſſed an Epiſtle to them with this Inſcription, To the moſt Sacred and Reverend Aſſembly; and begins it with this compellation, Moſt Sacred Divines ffExam. of Mr. Fullers Sermon.. As if they lookt for ſome new Diſcovery from Heaven, that ſhould make them ſo many ſpiritual Kings and Emperours, from whoſe Sovereign Authority none might appeal. But they did not long keep this Veneration even among your ſelves. To omit the railings of Martin's Eccho, and others: This very man, who held them for moſt Sacred, and thought their ſhade moſt comfortable and miraculouſly healing, within a few years forſook them, and ran from under it, for fear of a yoke which he ſaw them laying upon his neck. It is no ſmall incouragement, ſaid he, in the year 1642. That I ſit like the Propheteſs under the Palm tree, under ſuch a ſhade as yea… ſelves. Whatſoever weakneſs may appear in my aſſertions, your Patronage will heal them. For … they brought forth the ſick into the ſtreets, th… at leaſt the ſhaddow of Peter might touch ſ… of them. But this Song of Praiſe, was turn'd by 1646. into ſighs and groans; and he told them, you call for a y…ke, which neither we n… p. 271our Fathers were able to bear ggSaltmarſh Groans for Liberty. 1646.. Then they were lookt upon as ſo many Tyrants; and ſome were ſo bold as to challenge them all to diſpute with them hhCompaſſ. Samaritan. p. 58, 59.. And one feared not to tell them in the concluſion, that, an Army or Kingdom of ſtrange opinions were brought forth, and they had not laid any one of them upon their backs, by Argument iiAnſwer to the Decl. of the Kingd. of Scotl. 4 Jan. 1648. pag. 6.. But you can wink when you liſt at thoſe things among your ſelves, which you call by all the odious names you can invent, when you do but fanſie them in another man. Being very much like the Lamiae, whom you have heard of, I make no doubt, the ſtory is ſo common; who carried their eyes in their head when they were abroad, and at home cloſed them up in a box. We may not ſo much as ſmile at your affected language, no, not reprove your canting and groſs abuſe of Scripture phraſes; if we do, you ſay we are profane, ſcurrilous, blaſphemous, and what not? but you may abuſe the moſt innocent things, and ſport with them as much as you are able, and this paſſes for pleaſant diſcourſe, and ſanctified wit. There was a very ſober and diſcreet Petition, for inſtance, from the County of Kent, to the Houſe of Commons kkPrinted with many other by order from his Majeſty. 20. May. 1642., in which, after their thanks for thoſe excellent Laws, which they had obtained from his Majeſties goodneſs, they prayed among other things, that they might enjoy the ſolemn uſe of the Liturgy quiet p. 272and free from interruption, ſcorns, prophaneſs, threats and force; and that Epiſcopal Government might be preſerved, Papiſts ſuppreſſed, differences concerning Religion and Ceremonies determined in a Lawful free and National Synod, &c. In ſhort, there is not one offenſive word in it but only Liturgy and Biſhops, which brought all thoſe ſcoffs on it, which were wont to be thrown on them. A grave perſon (as he would ſeem to be by his Book llLate Covenant aſſerted. 1643. pag. 24.) entertained you with a mock Petition, after this dull faſhion, Humbly ſheweth, That ſince it was well with your Petitioners when like People like Prieſt, they would go to the Alehouſe with us, and we could offer cakes to the Queen of Heaven—

N. C.

Now you mock him in Scripture phraſe.

C.

They are his own words, I aſſure you: and you cannot but know how much your people love to abuſe us in the Holy language, and to pick out ſuch expreſſions as may ſignifie us to be Idolaters. Philagathus himſelf is ſo uſed to it, that he doth it, even when he doth not know it, as I charitably believe. W. B. ſaith he, would not have ſaid a word of the Bowl, and the Pottage, Had he been to pr… pheſie at Bethel, or at the King's Chappel, as Amos ſpeaketh mmSober Anſwer. p. 264., that is, at Whitehall; where, one would imagine, the Golden Calves, are ſet up and worſhipped.

p. 273N. C.

He had no ſuch meaning, I am confident.

C.

It's well if others do not ſo expound it, who know your uſual meaning in ſuch like words. But let us go on with the other Gentleman — Our hearty petition (ſaith he) is that you would be pleaſed to give us our Biſhops again (who thought no more of preaching than a Cobler of plowing, and had no more care of Souls than of their old ſhooes) and our Service Book, ſo full of good Prayers, which we can ſay, as our Parſon doth, though half aſleep, or quite drunk; and that we may have leave to be drunk and dance on Sundayes, a time deſigned by our good Biſhop for that purpoſe —

N. C.

O abominable! No more, I pray you.

C.

There is enough to ſhow the wick…d Spirit that was then among you. On… for a more full demonſtration of it. I …all add; that after he had mockt as …dg as he thought good, then he thinks … ſanctifie all at the laſt with a little …nking breath which he ſpends in a few …ghs, ſaying twice or thrice, Poor Souls, …r Souls! If my head were a Fountain p. 274I could weep over theſe, and if my heart were as it ſhould be (i. e. not full of laughter at them) I would ſigh …t my words, Poor Souls, Poor Souls. Nay, thus he jeers at His Majeſties moſt ſol… Proteſtation, which he made at the t… king of the Holy Sacrament before the Primate of Ireland, and all the Company then preſent—

N. C.

For Gods ſake forbear; you cannot grieve our hearts more then … remember any ſcorn caſt upon ſo ſacre… a perſon.

C.

The great pride and inſole… which this man diſcovers ſtill to rem… among you, makes me think it neceſſ… to call theſe things to your mind. B…t will let that inſtance alone, unleſs … continued Folly call for it.

N. C.

You ſhould not impute t… faults of ſome to all, as you have … through your whole Book.

C.

That's another inſtance of his diſ… genuity, who will take no notice of th… diſtinction I often made between ſo… men and the reſt. But will needs ſay… accuſe all, even there where I expre… ſay ſome, as you ſhall hear before … end. The truth is, this Phil. is ſo … that he writes in many places, as … p. 275had ſaid nothing unleſs I had writ a Book on purpoſe againſt him. It is enough he thinks to ſilence me, to ſay, I never preached, to my remembrance, one Sermon of that ſtrain. nnPage 284. 280. 282. and many other places.I was never one of thoſe flatterers: I have urged that advice ſeveral years paſt. Juſt as if he had a Saints Bell in his pocket (as your old friend, Martin ſaid to another, ooMartin Marprelat Proteſtation, when one of his Books was taken in the Preſs.I hope you will not be offended at his words) crying ting, ting, ting. And what doth it ting? my modesty, my moderation, my peaceableneſs, my Charity; ppSobe… Anſw. p. 143. 144. 225.Nothing but my, my, my. As if he was ſome Univerſal Nature, of whom all the particular N. C. did pertake. He might at leaſt have conſidered that there are ſeveral degrees of thoſe who differ from us, and that they are ſo many that no man can in one breath mention them …ll. They were above threeſcore years ago moſt ingeniouſly painted, and like…ed to Anacreons qqA Sermon at St. Pauls Croſs. 1 Nov. 1607. by S. Collins.fond loves, Some of which were perfect, ſome Pipient; ſome …acht, ſome half hatcht; ſome peering …t of the Egg, ſome riper in the Chick, …hilſt others had the ſtrength to flye nim…y away. All of them have this quality …o deſpiſe us, and think we know little … nothing of the Myſtery of Godlineſs, p. 276or want the power of it: but ſome in their opinions are further, others a leſſer way from us. Now there is nothing in my Book which the N. C. ſpeaks (whatſoever this man boldly talks) but ſome or other of them alledge againſt us, or reply to us; though every one doth not object or anſwer every thing therein mentioned. As for thoſe who are ſorry for our breaches, and diſlike the furious and factious Crew, who ſcorn and revile us, all that I had to ſay to them was, as you may remember, to deſire them to ſeparate themſelves from that Herd, by frequenting the publick worſhip of God, diſclaiming their unlawful practices, oppoſing their bold and proud Spirit, and reproving their inſolent and wicked ſpeeches. If they will not be perſwaded to this, but ſtill continue among them, countenance their cauſe, and joyn with them as if they were a more ſelect and holy people, and ſo find themſelves wounded by any thing I have writ; all that I can ſay to that is only this, which a very grave Author ſaid in the like Caſe. It may be ſome of you know, or have heard of that Noble Moralizer's Fable of Amphialus, rrMr. Rob. Abbot. Tryal of Church Forſakers, 1639. Enſtle to the Reader.who when he was in all his Military p. 277accoutrements to give Combat (as he thought) to Argalus Knight of the Sun; this mans Wiſe dreſſed her ſelf in her Husbands Armour and fought his Enemy. Amphialus ſpared not his blows, gave a cut in the Neck, cloſes, overthrows, and gives a mortal wound in the Body. But when he opened the Armour and viewed the Body, he found to his great ſorrow, it was Parthenia, to whom he meant no hurt at all. Such is my caſe here, I dare not write againſt any of our Communion, the love of Brotherly peace is glorious, even among men that other way differ in opinion. But if they thruſt themſelves among the Enemy, nay, put on the Arms of thoſe with whom I contend for truth, I cannot help it, if they meet with a blow: though I glory not in it, yea, am ſorry there ſhould be any ſuch Cauſe.

N. C.

You have given too many blows to your betters. For I doubt your Miniſtry hath hardly produced thoſe good effects as yet (ſo richly and plentifully I mean) as theirs have done. I doubt you can hardly ſay of ſo many as they can ſay ſo, theſe are the children which God hath p. 278given me, &c ceaſe to vilifie thoſe, the God hath honoured above you, as to the converſion of Souls. Diſcover not an e… vious Spirit —

C.

You need not repeat any more, I have his words ssSober Anſwer. p. 54.in mind; and remember withal, that ſuch men have been wont of old to vilify all preaching, beſides their own, and to challenge to themſelves, if not ſolely, yet above all others, a converting Miniſtry. So we were told long ago, and I ſpeak no more, ſaith my Author, ttSermon at Pauls Croſs, 1607. pag. 73.than I know by good proof. Thither no doubt that ſpeech of theirs tended, which was ſo famous in thoſe dayes, that all the flower was of their bolting, throughout the Land. uuPreface to their firſt Petition offered to King James.Which conceit continued in thoſe that ſucceeded, as Dr. John Burges obſerves. If, ſaith he, for ſhame they cannot deny Conformiſts to have excellent gifts, yet they limit the uſe of them, only to the breeding of knowledge, … reprehenſion of ſome groſſer faults; but that their Miniſtry, as well as others that conform not, may work Faith and Repentance to Salvation, they will not eaſily acknowledge, ye…, ſome falſly deny. xxPreface to the Anſwer of B… Mortords Book, 15. 1631.This Man is one of thoſe Daubters; being ſowred very p. 279much with that old leaven which heaved and ſwel'd them up ſo much. He is inclined indeed to hope that it is poſſible we may convert ſome; but alas! they are very few in compare with the Numbers that they convert. Our Miniſtry is not ſo powerful, and works not ſo much upon the heart—

N. C.

He ſpeaks only of you.

C.

You forget your ſelf. Upon the mention of me (who had rather learn, as I told you, than teach) he tells yypage 14.you of an Image now adored, which is nothing elſe but the preaching of Conformiſts, that muſt fall before theirs as Dagon did before the Ark. They have the Ark of the Covenant; they have the preſence of God among them; they behold the beauty of the Lord in the Sanctuary; who therefore can ſtand before them? The word is given forth, and we muſt all down; down to the very ground. For Fire you know, goes out of the mouth of the two Witneſſes, (i. e. your ſelves) ſo that, when they teſtifie (as another of your Interpreters expounds it zzSermon of the two Witneſſes Death and Reſurrection, 1648. p. 203. &c.) againſt any thing, any man, any Creature, any way, any Ordinances, any Judgment, ſaying, this is Heatheniſm, this is Gentiliſm, this is carnal, this is fleſhly, this p. 280is the Creature, this is Man and not God or of God; preſently it is deſtroyed, conſumed, blaſted, and brought to nothing. This he is ſo confident of, that he repeats it again and again; Whoſoever ſhall hurt or oppoſe the Witneſſes [the Spirit, and Spiritual actings of Chriſt and his people] be he never ſo great, wiſe, powerful, devout and Religious, he ſhall not be able to ſtand, but fire proceeds from the Spirit, which torments, conſumes, and deſtroys him. For when the two Witneſſes declare that it is not of God, it is not Christ, it is not the holy one of God; but it is Man, it is fleſh, it is the outward Court, that is excluded, not the inward Temple, therefore meaſure it not, leave it out, exclude it from having the dews and ſhowers of Heaven fall upon it; preſently Heaven is ſhut, and they have no rain, and they wither as a Plant which God hath not planted. Theſe are your powerful men that can ſhut Heaven when they liſt, with a breath of their mouths. It is but ſpeaking a word, and we ſtudy and plod and beat our brains and toil, and labour to no purpoſe: that blaſt ſpoyls us all.

N. C.

This man had too much Fire in his head, which made his mouth ſo hot.

p. 281C.

Too much Pride, you ſhould have ſaid in his heart, which makes ſo many of you deſpiſe the labours of other men as weak and unprofitable. Thus an impudent Libeller told the good Biſhop of Galloway, That others had wrought more faithfully and fruitfully, than he had done, and could teach him how to behave himſelf, though he ſeemed to himſelf (theſe men you muſt underſtand can ſearch the heart) a great Doctor in Iſrael aaAnſwer to Tripartite Apology. 1614. p. 180.. And thus alſo the Covenanters in late times, upbraided the Reverend Profeſſors of Aberdeen, and they no mean perſons bbDr. John Forbes, Rob. Baronius &c. Duplies. p. 112.neither, that their pains in preaching were not fruitful. To which they Anſwered then, as I do now, That though it ſhould be true, yet the Parable of the ſeed ſown in divers ſort of ground, and the Dolorous complaint which thoſe moſt painfull and thundering Preachers Elijah, Iſaiah, St. Paul, yea, and Chriſt himſelf made of their hard ſucceſs in their Labours, might learn you to be more benigne in your cenſures of us than you are. To which I add; that it muſt be left to God to judge who doth moſt good and makes the beſt men, for all are not good nor all bad, p. 282that ſuch raſh and ignorant men as this are wont to call by thoſe names. We know very well, that many men who are converted to you are ſo far from being good that they become worſe than they were before: More haughty and conceited of themſelves; more unmannerly to their betters, diſobedient to their Maſters and Governours, unbridled in their language, unpeaceable and troubleſome to their neighbours. It is an eaſie matter to ſay I wrong you, but I know what I ſay, and others have ſaid it before me. It is an old obſervation of Mr. R. Bernards ccSeparatiſts ſchiſm, p. 29.30. 1608., That as ſoon as ever men enter into the way of ſeparation, immediately they grow peremptory; and though never ſo ſimple, yet preſently they ſee the truth without any ſtudy: and can partly champer againſt us, and condemn us all for falſe Chriſtians and falſe Churches. Nay, they are ſo bewitched with that way, that they are nothing like themſelves in what was good and laudable in them. Before humble and tractable, then proud and wilfull; before they could find the word work and themſelves moved by our preaching, but afterward they judg the Miniſter to p. 283have loſt the power of his Miniſtry, becauſe they themſelves are in affection altered: blaming the Teacher, when the fault is in themſelves. They can with underſtanding judge between cauſe and cauſe, reaſon and reaſon, but then they lick up all which comes from themſelves as Oracles, be they never ſo abſurd. And have we not all ſeen how light they all make of this great ſin of Separation? The N. England Miniſters themſelves complain, That there is ſcarce any truth or error now a days can be received, but it is maintained in a way of Schiſm, directly contrary to the gathering and uniting Spirit of Jeſus Christ ddMr. Allen and Mr. Shepherd, Defence of the 9 poſitions. p. 27.. And what ſhould be the reaſon think you that men are ſo ready to follow this evil Spirit that is in the world, but that they have no ſenſe of ſpiritual wickedneſſes, nay, look upon Diviſions, Separations, and all the evil conſequences of them, not only as innocent but holy things? While the Devil, as Mr. Greenham eeGrave Counſels and Godly obſervations. p. 37.well obſerves, Was known only by horns and claws, or by the hollow voice, he was wonderfully feared; but being now revealed to be a more ſecret Adverſary, a ſpiritual Tempter, a privy overthrower of p. 284Souls, no man almoſt regards him. And therefore as ſome have feared him too ſuperſtitiouſly, ſo now it is come to a more dangerous extremity, that he is not feared at all. He enters into mens hearts ſecurely, and they are not aware of it: He rules and domineers there, and they rejoyce at it, thinking they are full of the Spirit of God. O how happy would it be, if all would labour to throw this Devil out, which poſſeſſes too many: Pride, high conceit of their own knowledge, glorying in their gifts, crowing over others as carnal or moral men, together with all the reſt of his company which I have mentioned. This would be a better work, than to perſwade them they are already converted when they are become Proſelytes to a party, and too many of them, as far as we can ſee, by their fruits, like thoſe made by the Phariſees, who were no leſs laborious, and perhaps ſucceſsful than your ſelves.

N. C.

You are miſtaken, we do not call this Converſion, to become N. C.

C.

You may ſpeak for your ſelf, and ſuch as you know very well; for too many do. They glory in the Converſion of thoſe who have only changed their p. 285Vices, not their Natures; and of prophane or neglectors of Religion, are become Schiſmatical, proud, cenſorious, and highly preſuming of their knowledge which they have got in a moment; in one word, have exchanged the ſins of the fleſh for thoſe of the Spirit. Tertullians ffPervenimus de calcaria in Carbonarium. L. de carne. Chriſti. Cap 6.words are an exact deſcription of them, if you do but invert the Proverb, They go out of the Cole-pit, into the Lime-kill: where, though they become white, yet they remain ſtill dirty and defiled. And look how much theſe excell other men in zeal, and earneſtneſs, in height of fancy and warmth of affection, in fluency of ſpeech and notable ſtrains of Devotion; in ſo much the worſe condition they are. As men in a frenzy ſaith Irenaeus ggL. 1. Cap, 13. pag. 54.(out of Hipp…rates) the more they laugh and appear to be vigorous and ſtrong, doing all things like men in health, nay, ſomethings above what any ſound men can do, ſo much the more dangerous is their diſeaſe: in like manner, the higher theſe people are in their own thoughts, the greater ſtore they have of Religious heat, the more vehemently they bend their thoughts and ſtrain their unpurged Souls (drawing the Arrow, as p. 286he ſpeaks, beyond the Bow) the leſs wiſe they are, or rather the more mad and furious, and the more unlikely ever to return to any ſobriety of mind. I would not for all the World be guilty of that Envy, which this ill-natur'd Adverſary would make you believe I am infected withall. I rejoyce, I thank God, not only that men are made truly good, whoſoever be the inſtrument of it; but that they are made wiſer and better than my ſelf. Yet I am taught, for all that, by your own Books to leſſen the number of ſuch Converts as this man braggs of. For they have informed us, for many years, of an evil generation that have ſeparated from us, in whom, as one of them tells us, hhFountain of Slander opened, p. 25. 1649.you ſhall ſee Chriſt and Belial, God and Mammon, in one and the ſame perſon. Chriſt in ſhow, and the other in reality. They let themſelves looſe to lying and diſſimulation, ſlandering and backbiting, and all kind of circumvention. God, Religion, Reaſon, Virtue, are but meer termes and notions with them, ſerving them to no other purpoſe, but to deceive the more effectually. And that particular of lying is confirmed by Mr. H. Peters himſelf, who to cry p. 287quit with thoſe among you that exclaimed againſt the Army, as guilty of many Crimes, ſaid, there are ſome other diſeaſes as much conſiderable among others, which may be of greater influence, and the laſt he mentions is, a ſpirit of lying and falſe Witneſs bearing, even to the undervaluing of our enjoyments. iiA word to the Army, and two words to the Kingdom. 1647. pag. 9.Much more I could relate to this purpoſe, from ſome of your own mouths, which if it ſhould have been writ by any of us, I know what you would have ſaid of us.

N. C.

Truly you have ſaid too much to gratifie the common Enemy; and ſo far (ſaith Philag. kkPreface, pag. 10.) as a man may gather from your Book, you would ſooner promote a Caſſandrian deſign, viz. of Union betwixt Proteſtants and Papiſts, than that betwixt C. and N. C. For you inſtigate Rulers to much ſeverity againſt N. C. but never againſt Papiſts.

C.

As far as a man may gather from his Anſwer to my Book; he would ſooner turn a Turk than a Son of the Church of England, for he hath expreſſed a great deal of wrath and ſpite againſt ſome of us, but none at all againſt any of the Turks. What an untoward Adverſary have I to deal withal, who, if we will p. 288not be impertinent, leave our buſineſs and go out of our way to diſpute with a man, concludes that we have nothing to ſay to him? He loves ſo to ramble himſelf, that he takes it much to heart, if we will not bear him company. As W. B. pottage, you know, led his prophane fancy to the ſtory of the Girl that cryed Butter, Butter too, when her Mother taught her the Lords prayer and came to thoſe words, Give us our daily bread.llI hope you do not miſlike the word Bread in the Lords prayer, and as thinking that expreſſion too dry, cry out as a Child did, &c. p. 265.

N. C.

Why ſhould it be called prophane? It is but a merry ſtory.

C.

In the Child it was not prophane, who knew not what it ſaid; but in him it is impious to ſuppoſe it poſſible that I ſhould miſlike thoſe holy words of our Lords, and think them defective and dry unleſs I might pray with this Addition, Give us our daily Bread and Butter too. I did not think there had been a Divine among you, who was ſo much a Child, or elſe ſo little a Chriſtian, as to write ſuch ſtuff as this. Martin, indeed was ſo bold, as to deſire the Lord he would put it into the Aſſemblys heart to divide the Directory, not only into Chapters, but into Verſes, into Verſes too; that ſo we might have a new Directory-Goſpel: p. 289But this you know was called an horrid Blaſphemy—

N. C.

Pray do not you tell ſtories too?

C.

Mine is no old wives tale like his, but to be ſeen in Print, in a Book mmA freſh Diſcovery of ſome new wandring blaſing ſtarrs &c. 1646. Sect. 5.where you may find more ſuch ſcoffing Prayers, from the men of the New light, whom Philag: is reſolved to defend.

N. C.

I pray God deliver us from their darkneſs.

C.

Shut your windows then againſt them. And pray withal that God would ſend Philag. more wit or more Modeſty, that he may not trouble the world with ſuch wretched Prefaces and Books any more. As for the advantage which you fancy the Papiſts may make of what I have ſaid, it is not to be conſidered in compare with that which they make of your Schiſm, and your loud clamours for more liberty then the Laws allow. We did ſweare, ſaid M^r. Rutherford nnSermen 25. June 1645. at the Abbey p. 6.the extir…ation of Popery &c. now we preach, profeſs and print that liberty is to be given for the Conſciences of men, and how can this …e denyed to Papiſts. This deſign of Liberty, which you have in your heads, is that white Devil, that noon day Devil (if you will believe M^r. Edwards ooAntapolog: p: 56.) which coming under the merit of much ſuffering, and p. 290well deſerving clad in the white Garments of innocence and holineſs, is like to do the more hurt. And it was the opinion I find of an old D^r. in Cambridg long before you or I was born, that if ever Popery come into this land again to have any power, it would be by the means of ſuch Preciſians as you.

N. C.

Why do you call any body by that name?

C.

Let D^r. Feately tell you, an Author whom Philag. quotes very often, Our refined reformers, ſaith he, ppA Conſecration Sermon March. 23 1622.(as they would be thought) according to their name of Preciſians pare the nailes of pretended Romiſh rites in our Church ſo near, that they make her fingers bleed. For … of monuments of Idolatry, all ornaments of the Church muſt be taken away. For fe… of praying for the dead, they will allow … prayer to be ſaid for the living at the burial of the dead. For fear of bread Worſhip, they will not kneel at the Communion of Chriſts body and blood. But how fairly you have contributed, more than any body elſe, to bring that which you fear upon us, by diſturbing the Government of Church and ſtate, and ſtill continuing a lamentable ſeparation from us, there is none now among us, of any p. 291underſtanding, but eaſily diſcern: For he is blind indeed, that cannot ſee through the holes of a Sieve. It is poſſible you may remember alſo, who that Gentleman was that told the City of London when he was upon the Scaffold, that it was part of his prayer to Almighty God, that the tumultuous people of this Nation might not be like thoſe Phariſees and their followers who pretending a fear of the Romans coming and taking away their place and Nation (when there was no cauſe for it, but they only made uſe of that ſuggeſtion to further their miſcheivous deſign of murdering the innocent) had at laſt the Romans brought upon them indeed and were utterly ruined by them. Truly the factious and tumultuous people of this Nation, ſaith my Author, qqEaglan… Complaint An. 1648.have in all other things the moſt reſembled the Phariſees that ever any people did: God in his mercy grant that they do not alſo reſemble them in this.

N.C.

There is no fear of that, I warrant you.

C.

A great deal the more, becauſe you are not ſenſible of the danger. For as if it were a ſmall matter to make ſuch a wide breach in our Church, you ſeek, p. 292to make it wider, by advancing your ſelves above all other men, diſparaging us and our Miniſters, and loading them with reproaches, as if they were not worthy to be named together with you. Which forces us to ſay that of you, which otherways ſhould never have come out of our mouths: though alas! it could not have been hid, you proclaim it ſo loudly your ſelves. This very Advocate of yours hath given ſuch a Character of you in his Book, as may ſatisfy all wiſe and ſober men, what you are; though we ſhould hold our peace. For he hath one faculty, you muſt know, wherein he ſurpaſſes moſt other writers, and that is, after he hath made a long diſcourſe to prove a thing, at laſt to overthrow it all. Or to ſpeake in his own phraſe, he is ſuch a Cow as having given a great deal of Milk, throws it all down with her foot. For after all the evil he had ſaid of me, in concluſion, as I ſhowed you, he acknowledges ſo much goodneſs in me as is inconſiſtent with his accuſations. And in like manner after all the praiſes he had beſtowed on the N. C. for their piety, ſincerity, modeſty, patience and ſuch like things, in the end he grants the worſt things that I charged p. 293them with all, and makes them as bad as bad can be. Though you may be ſure it was not his deſign, only truth would out when he did not obſerve it.

N. C.

You ſhould not ſtudy revenge, by taking notice of the motes that are in the eye of his diſcourſe, becauſe he did ſo by yours rrSober Anſw. p. 11..

C.

If I ſought for motes I could find a great one in that very phraſe. Theſe are logs which I am going to ſpeak of, that a man may ſee with half an eye. Firſt he confeſſes that they are ſelf conceited, impatient of contradiction, wedded to their own opinion; ſuch as will rule even their Miniſters, if not deſpiſe and abandon them, unleſs they pleaſe their humor: Elſe why ſhould they ſo eaſily run away from them, nay ſpew them out of their mouth, ſſThey are his own words. p. 228. and ſee p. 223.if they perſwade them earneſtly to that which they think in their conſcience is their Duty. They are ſo curriſh alſo and hard hearted, that they will give ſuch a Miniſter a Bill of Divorce, and he may ſtarve if he will, for any thing that they will do for him ttHis own words p. 229.. But the reaſon is, that they are in a rage, in a violent fermentation and boiling againſt our Church; and therefore muſt not be medled withall but let alone, for fear, as he tells you, p. 294of making them ſtark mad, which it is thought would be the effect of an attempt to reduce them to that which I call ſobriety uupag. 227.. So uncapable they are of good inſtruction, that they ſpeak evil of our Biſhops and others with open mouth, being the Authors or abetters of falſe and ſcandalous ſtories concerning them, and yet cannot be perſwaded that they have done it ſufficiently, or that they can open their mouths too wide in this caſe.

N. C.

A horrid ſlander.

C.

Say you ſo? I will read his very words then to you that you may be convinced though others will not. Neither muſt they xxpag. 228.(i. e. your Miniſters) preſume to keep a Day of Humiliation for the ſin you there mention p. 235. viz ſpeaking evil of Biſhops &c. though either to raiſe or take up a falſe report againſt any man, eſpecially if in Authority, is a great ſin: yet to keep a day of Humiliation among the people, upon ſuch an account as that (who will not be convinced that they can open their mouths too wide in that caſe) were immediately to divorce themſelves from them, ☞or to cauſe the people to give them a Bill of Divorcement, and to be married to ſome worſe Husband—

p. 295N.C.

I am aſtoniſht at his negligent writing: I ſhall not be angry hereafter if you call him a ſhatter'd-brain Scribler.—

C.

Who not only confeſſes that you cannot be convinced that you can bawl too loudly, though falſely and ſcandalouſly againſt our Governours; but that the hearts of your people are alienated from us, and have an antipathy againſt us, as he tells you in the next page. And that ſome of them hate our Worſhip worſe than a Toad, as he aſſures us upon his own knowledg yypag. 224. Canepejus. & angue: and are ſo ungrateful withal to our Sovereign, that they will not ſo much as wiſh for the peace and proſperity of their Native Country, unleſs they can enjoy ſuch quiet as they deſire.

N. C.

There is no ſuch thing ſure in his Book.

C.

No! read then what he ſaith in another place. p. 221, 222. Where he tells us we muſt not expect that you ſhould be perſwaded to ſeek our peace by ſuch eaſy means as I directed you to, for men cannot eaſily ſo much deny themſelves as to promote the intereſt of thoſe by whom they have been ruined and are ruining all the day long. If you urge that text ſaith he, ſeek the peace of that City whether p. 296I have cauſed you to be carried captive and pray to the Lord for it: ſome are ready to reply (how many who knows?) Yea, and ſo we will ſeek your peace and preſperity, when you make good what is there added, for in the peace thereof yee ſhall have peace. They will condition, you ſee, with his Majeſty, or elſe he muſt not have the benefit of their prayers for the tranquillity and happineſs of his Realmes.

N. C.

Would He had held his peace, and never undertaken our cauſe.

C.

There is a plain reaſon, he tells you, for this ſurlineſs. They are grons high and proud; they ſwell with grief, anger and vexation, zzpag. 281.becauſe they cannot have their will, or as he calls it, are trod and trampled upon. And though they are, it ſeemes, ſo low, yet their ſpirits are ſo high, and ſo far from humble and ſilent patience, that they have clamoured both upon King and Parliament … and down the Nation, for the undoing of many families, aaSo he tells us. p. 236.which tells you what excellent Chriſtians they are; for that word clamour (as one bbMr. Fullers Vindic. of his Sermon. 1643.told M^r. Saltmarſh) ſounds in a bad ſenſe in the Holy Scriptures, as arguing an ill tempered ſpirit, with amixture of Pride and impatience; p. 297for which he cites 9. Prov. 13.4. Epheſ. 31. But ſome of them are gone higher, and have a rebellious principle in them, as he confeſſes, if what I ſaid be true, ccSober Anſwer, p. 105.as I am ſure it is. And yet for all that there are no ſuch people as they, the power of Godlineſs is their peculiar portion: thus far this man himſelf is poſſeſſed with thoſe proud fancies, that he thinks, from what I have ſaid againſt them, it will be inforc'd that all that which is called Religion is meer Hypocriſie and impoſture, ddPreface, p. 22. 23.Laſtly, as for lying and ſpeaking falſly, you ſhall not eaſily meet with a greater example of it than in himſelf. And if one of your guides be ſo addicted ro this vice, that he bluſhes not to put them in Print, when he may be ſo ſoon confuted, what a number of lyes, in all probability, are there whiſpered in corners by your common people.

N. C.

You ſhould ſay they are miſtakes, and no more.

C.

I would willingly have called them all by no worſe name than falſhoods, but upon ſerious conſideration of all things, I cannot but conclude that, too often, there was ſomething of his will in it, and that he had a mind to calumniate. p. 298And for our more orderly proceeding, this being you know, part of my Charge againſt him, I will firſt ſet before you ſome of the lyes and falſhoods in his preface, and then ſome of thoſe that are in his Book. For the former, there is no truth in thoſe words you meet withal, p. 3. that I call ſome men all to naught; nor did I ſay ſo much as this, which he confidently affirms, that W. B. is the greateſt Impoſtor that ever I knew in the Chriſtian Religion. ccMy words are. He is one of the principal Impoſtors that perverted the truth and a lulterated, &c. Contin, p. 108.Theſe are forgeries of his own, like that which follows p. 8. You bring in the N. C. ſaying, the King is a Tyrant. But what will not he be bold to invent, who dare tell you (p. 10.) that I knockt ſo hard (not only upon the Act of Indemnity, which I have ſhow'd you is notoriouſly falſe) but upon all overtures for peace and accommodation, that he was not able to lye ſtill; when part of my buſineſs was to ſhow the way to it, and when it was fit for you to expect the favour you deſire? If we ſay not what pleaſes him, it ſeems we had better hold our peace. If he like not our propoſitions he will make no bones to ſay we offer nothing; nay, are againſt all peace and accomodation with them. They muſt have their own way; and be p. 299ſet at Liberty (as he tells us) before they will try to make us and you friends; and then it is but upon condition neither; if we will refer it to them, and be bound to ſtand to their award. ggThey are his own words, p. 220. 221.Such another ugly lye is that which immediately comes after this, that I reflect obliquely upon moſt eminent perſons, and inſinuate that they never deſerve to be loved or truſted more, notwithſtanding his Majeſties confidence in them. This he found in the ſame place where he met with all thoſe Stratagems and Maximes he tells you of in the following pages; as that I would put down Religious conference, and bring men out of conceit with experiences, and have ſpiritual preaching laught out of Countenance; hhP. 16, 17. of the Preface.and that I have uſed my wit to abuſe earneſtneſs in Prayer, preaching of the love of Jeſus Chriſt, and uſing of Scripture language iiPage 31. Ib.with a number of other ſuch like things, which are ſuch groſs lyes that they cannot be forced from my words by doing violence to them and putting them upon the Rack. For I told you in plain termes what experiences the Apoſtle commands; and when Religious conference is profitable to our ſelves and others, and what it is to preach ſpiritually, &c. which I do not p. 300mean to repeat over again for his conviction. In ſtead of that, I will recommend to his conſideration one Stratagem, which he doth not think of; though he is very expert in it, and though it be a Stratagem of Satan, who as Acontius might have inform'd him, in a Book bearing that Title; kkS…ns Stra…ag…es. Book 2. p. 50.52 tranſlated, 1648.prompts men to cavil at one anothers words in their diſputes; whereby oppoſition is made not ſo much againſt what is affirmed, as againſt what the oppoſer hath by a falſe Interpretation feigned to himſelf, which kind of practice, tends to nothing, ſaith he, but to provoke the Adverſary, and to make a mans ſelf ridiculous; by opening a Window to himſelf whereout to caſt a thouſand follies, not a jot to the matter in hand. Yet ſome men, as he adds, are exceedingly conceited of themſelves, if miſinterpreting their Adverſaries words, they can infer ſome great abſurdity there from. Howbeit, this cuſtom ought to be left to vain Sophiſters: who, as another excellent writer obſerves; llMouns. Balzac.can make uſe of true propoſitions to infer an erroneous concluſion, and like petti-foggers, ſtill cite the Law, to Authoriſe their injuſtice. Such a Caviller is this Philagathus, between whoſe Maximes, Aphoriſms, p. 301&c. and my propoſitions, there is as wide a difference, as we find ofttimes between the Text and the Commentaries, the meaning of the Author, and the Criticiſmes of Grammarians, So he will confeſs himſelf, if he will but take the counſel of Acontius, and forſaking the Devil, with all his Works, report what I ſay, without addition, diminution, or alteration. I can warrant only my own words which are ſound and innocent, as the other writer ſpeaks in the like caſe, not thoſe of my Adverſary which are full of malice and rancor. For what I have written I am reſponſible, and am ready to maintain it: but all the Viſions and fancies that come into other mens heads, are not in my power, nor am I accountable for them. If Philag. will ſay, that I affirm one of W. B. Sermons is not ſo good as a Play mmPreface p. 20.&c. what remedy is there? who can defend themſelves from being abuſed by ſuch ſquint-ey'd Readers? I cannot make my words plainer than they are, which were only theſe, that the Sermon about the Cupboard of Plate, and Gods departing from us, &c. hath more of fiction in it, than many of the Playes. nnFriend… Debate. 190.What ever other words I ſhould go about to p. 302place in the room of them, he may as well deprave as he hath done theſe, and many other throughout his whole Book; making them depoſe ſuch things as were never in my thoughts. But now we have to do with the Preface, in which there are ſo many falſities of this Nature, that if I could find the like in my Book, I ſhould think (as Dr. Corn. Burges ſaith in another caſe ooAntidote against AntiSobrius, p. 31.1660.) that it deſerved the reward of the Hangman; and I would either burn it my ſelf, or hire him to d… it for me. It would tire you to hear them all, and therefore I will only add that notorious one which you find in the firſt of thoſe Stratagems of Satan, which he hath invented, to caſt that blame on us, which juſtly lyes upon themſelves. It is this, that we have brought all the practical Divines, ſuch as Scudder, Culverwell, Rogers, &c. quite out of Requeſt, that now adays there is no enquiring after thoſe kind of Books.ppPreſace. p. 12.

N. C.

He only tells you that a grave Book-ſeller told him not long ſince that the Rational Divines (as ſome would have them called) had brought all our practical Divines, &c. —

C.

Take heed you do not falſify too: p. 303He hath made this lye his own, in theſe words which follow, qqIb. page 13.Sure I am, the writings which you have taught the World to ſet at naught, have been as great Seminaries and nurſeries of Religion, as moſt in the World.

N. C.

Is it not too true?

C.

There cannot well be a more impudent falſhood. For it was the canting of ſome among your ſelves which firſt ſtruck thoſe Books out of your peoples hands, and deſtroyed thoſe great Nu…ſeries which he ſpeaks of. They made them believe there was a greater Goſpel-Light now broken forth, than had been ſince the Apoſtles times; that they brought them more glorious Diſcoveries of the love of God, and held forth free grace more clearly and fully; and that there was both a freer ſtreaming of Chriſt's Blood to poor ſinners laid open, and a more plentiful powring out of the Spirit in theſe latter dayes, than our Fore-Fathers had ſeen: In ſhort, that there was more of Law and of Mount Sinai, in thoſe old Preachers, and now more of Goſpel, and Mount Sion in themſelves. This was one of thoſe things which turned their eyes from Authors now named, to look for ſome greater p. 304thing which theſe new Teachers had to reveal to them.

N. C.

I muſt confeſs I have heard ſome of our own Divines complain of this. But I doubt you have helpt to make the people reject thoſe Authors as weak and frivolous, and to liſten to what new Rational Doctrine your ſelves are about to bring: as he tells you, p. 13.

C.

He talks idly: and ſpitefully oppoſes his own imaginations to the plain and manifeſt truth. They were laid aſide and other Books come in their ſtead; before thoſe whom he ſtrikes at, begun either to preach or write. And ſome of thoſe very Miniſters of yours who complained of the New lights and Diſcoveries have contributed to it not a little, by affecting of new words and fine phraſes, and deviſing Sauces for that food which thoſe old Divines delivered in a plainet and more ſimple manner. Theſe many people began even then to long for, when Mr. Rogers his Book was writ; as we may learn from one that prefaces to it. Mr. Fr. Merbury there tells us that ſome profeſſors in thoſe dayes liked none but ſuch conceited Cooks as this Philagdthus, who commends ſo heartily, T. VV. Sances, and tells us an Anchove or two p. 305gives the gravy a fine reliſh; and rather then fail can be content with Carriers Sance, an Onion, to get a man a better stomack to his meat. rrAll theſe are his words. p. 50.But he himſelf did not like them; as he tells us in theſe words; the reſt of the profeſſors, which …e like wanton children and begin to play with their meat and brook nothing but conceited writing and ſpeaking, are to be bewailed. And therefore he deſires the good Readers in the concluſion of that Epiſtle, to receive Mr. Roger's proviſion made for them of wholeſome meat, not caring for conceited Cookery, but rememtring that hunger is the beſt ſauce for beavenly food. This is a plain demonſtration to me, that this buiſy Informer and Reproover hath not been converſant himſelf in thoſe Writers which he ſo much commends, but is one of thoſe who hath laid them aſide, though he be no Rational Divine, I dare ſay for him. At leaſt he is never the better for them, being one of thoſe that writes not elegantly but conceitedly (if ever any man did) and that labours hard in this phantaſtick trade of Cookery, which thoſe grave Writers did ſo ſolemnly condemn. Witneſs the bread and butter I told you of before, the hot broth of reproof which p. 306he talks of p. 123. The Beef and Bacon, the Rabbets and Chickens which he fetches in, to make a ſavory Meſs of W. Bs. bowl of Pottage: ffpag. 264. and 265.and the conceited jeſt which he makes a ſhift to ſtrain at laſt out of a Galimaufry of Latine and Engliſh compounded together: for which he would be ſoundly firkt if he were I know where, and at every laſh be told in his own language that he had both jus in re, and jus ad rem too, far more then any boy in the School.

N. C.

Did not you bring in your Cheeſe too in the Epiſtle to your Reader?

C.

And I take it neither for an outſtretched Allegory uuLike his diſcourſe of this matter; which takes up 3. pages l. p. 264. &c.(as he would have it) nor an unhandſome reſemblance. Others I am ſure, who are no bad judges think it as far from conceited, as they think him from being witty.

N. C.

You muſt conſider the matters about which he write, are not very grave, and ſo it may be pardonable if he be a little phantaſtical.

C.

No? I thought all this while he had been defending the uſe of theſe Sauces in T. W's. Book of Repentance and ſuch like; that have taken the place of thoſe better writers. Which are the leſs p. 307acceptable to many of you for another reaſon that he thinks not of, being, I have cauſe to think, but little acquainted with them.

N. C.

What ſhould that be?

C.

They reſolutely maintain the lawfulneſs and uſefulneſs of a Form of prayer, which now is ſo much deſpiſed, if not abhorred: and withal approve of the publique ſervice of our Church, and commend ſome other things which are now neglected.

N. C.

Can you prove what you ſay?

C.

I tell you nothing but what my eyes have read. M^r. Rich. Rogers, for inſtance, whom (p. 13.) he ſets in the firſt place, in his ſeven Treatiſes xxCommended by Mr. Culverwel, one of the Authors Philag. praiſes.dedicated to King James in the beginning of his raign, tells you, **Treat. 3. chap. 4.that the Publique Prayers ſolemnly offered to God in the congregation, and prayſing God with Pſalmes, is one of the publique helps to Godlineſs to be uſed by every Chriſtian. In the which, ſaith he, if that mind be in us with the which we have been taught to come to all holy exerciſes, and ſo be prepared for them, who doubts but that we may receive much help by them? Yea, ☜and the better a man is the more he ſhall profit by them. p. 308And when a man doth not profit, it is partly of Ignorance partly from a prejudicate opinion and raſh zeal, which makes men give themſelves to ſlight and negligent hearing of and attending to them. And then having anſwered the objection of thoſe who ſaid the Miniſters in ſome places were ignorant and unreformed (Sots and idle drones in philag language. p. 284.) and reſolved that notwithſtanding we ought to joyn with them in prayers: He proceeds to ſatisfy thoſe that ſaid a Miniſter ſhould uſe no ſet form of Prayer, but as he is moved by Gods ſpirit. To ſuch he ſaith, It is a fond error ſo to think —

N. C.

I know many would not like thoſe words.

C.

I told you ſo: but hear his reaſon. For as there be neceſſary things to be prayed for of all men and alway, and thoſe are the moſt things which we are to pray for; So there may be preſcript forms of prayer made conceming all ſuch things. Which being ſo, what letteth that in the Reading of ſuch prayers, either of confeſſion of ſin, requeſt or thanksgiving, what letteth (I ſay) that the hearers heart may not p. 309profitably go with the ſame, both to humble to quicken and to comfort? For is the reading it ſelf unpure, when the Miniſter in his own behalf and the peoples uttereth them to God? I ſpeak not, you ſee, of the matter of prayer, but of reading it: for if the matter be naught, the pronouncing of it makes it not good any more then reading doth; if it be good and pure being uttered and pronounced, the reading cannot hurt it, or make it evil. And further to ſatisfy them, they may know that in all Churches and the beſt Reformed there is a preſcript form of prayer uſed, and therefore they who are of a mind that it ought not to be, muſt ſeparate themſelves from all Churches. And then he concludes with a perſwaſion to all good Chriſtians, to lay aſide contention and endleſs and (many of them alſo) needleſs Queſtions about this matter: And ſeeing it muſt of all who are well adviſed be granted, that the publique prayers are helps to ſtir up Gods graces in us, and to convey to us the many good bleſſings of God which we want: to look therefore to themſelves every way ſo carefully that they may be fit to be helped and benefitted p. 310by them; and with the ſame well ordered hearts and minds to attend unto and apply to themſelves the prayers, which either before and after Sermon are uttered, or the other which through the whole action of Gods worſhip are read in their hearing: and not to be led by opinion that they can take no profit by them.

N. C.

I ſee very well what kind of writer he is.

C.

And you ſee he is not for the …oth of the men of theſe days: in which Philag. confeſſes, your Miniſters dare not perſwade the people in this manner; much leſs tell them that all who are well adviſed are ſenſible of the benefit that is to be received by the publike prayers read out of a Book. This one paſſage is enough I doubt not, to make ſuch Books as theſe to be rejected, as well as their Admonitions.

N. C.

I believe theſe very good men, and meant exceeding well —

C.

But were weak and in a lower diſpenſation.

N.C.

I dare not ſay ſo, but I think they would not pleaſe now.

C.

No I warrant you: eſpecially when they met with a form of prayer p. 311which this Author himſelf hath drawn up at the end of the fourth Treatiſe: yyChap. 20. p. 537. &c. Edit. 5. 1630.In which among other things he teaches the people to acknowledge the great goodneſs of God in giving them to live under a moſt Chriſtian and Religious Prince and King, defending and maintaining the Goſpel againſt all Antichriſtian Malice and tyranny and other adverſary powers, and the ſame truly and ſincerely preached &c. Theſe are words which do not ſound well in many of your ears: they would be loath to joyn in this acknowledgment. For we are told by one that God hath ecclipſed the light of the Sanctuary: zzT. W. Godlymans picture p. 114By another that our Aarons too often make golden Calves: aaRebuild. of London. p. 359.And by Philagathus that the Goſpel is gone from many congregations in England and elſe where. bbSober Anſw. p. 284.And that the Goſhens that were (when the N. C. were in them) are grown as dark as the land of Egypt ccpag. 285.and were it not for ſome reaſons he tells you, he would not have ſpoken of it, but let it alone, till the cry thereof ſo came up to Heaven, as to cauſe the God of Heaven to ſay as in Gen. 18.11. concerning Sodom, I will go down and ſee if they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come up unto me &c. p. 312ddp. 286.By which it ſhould ſeem —

N. C.

No gloſſes, good Sir., nor Inferences.

C.

There needs none. We may plainly obſerve what judgments they expect to come upon us becauſe of their removeal. We are in Egypt already (though the word of God be read every where) and muſt be made like Sodom and Gomorrah. I wiſh heartily that in ſtead of ſuch acknowledgments as good M. Rogers taught the people to make, though many in thoſe times were ſuſpended and deprived; they do not now clap petards, on heavens gates, that they may fly open and ſend down Fire and brimſtone upon us.

N. C.

Are you mad? what wild fire hath got into your head? Phil. called you a Crack; now he will call you a Cracker.

C.

You are not well read, I perceive. T. W. tells you that Prayer hath a power to deſtroy the Inſolent Enemies of the Church. For the two VVitneſſes have a flame at their lips: Fire proceeds out of their mouth, which devours their Enemies, Rev. 11.5. and this Fire is certainly to be interpreted of their Prayers. ccGodly mans picture, by Mr. Tho. Watſon. p. 129.Now that you may p. 313better underſtand their power, he tells you that Prayer is a petard which will make Heavens Gate to flye open.ffIb. p. 130.

N. C.

I cry you mercy, I did not expect to have found ſuch expreſſions any where.

C.

Not in Mr. Rogers, I warrant you, nor any of the Seminaries before named, who will never trouble you with ſuch conceited language as this, nor tell you; that Prayer is a ſeed ſown in Gods ears.ggIb. p. 128.

N. C.

Good now diſmiſs both him and Mr. Rogers, I have had enough of them.

C.

Let me tell you firſt that this book of his was abridged by Mr. Egorton **Anno. 1618. and put in Queſt. and Anſw.(who commended it in his Preface to Mr. Hen. Scudders daily Walk:) and called the practice of Chriſtianity. A Book well know and much read when I was a Child; and hath an Epiſtle of Dr. Gouge before it, and at the concluſion certain Advertiſements concerning Prayer. **At the end of the ſeventh Book, chap. 11. pag. 691. Edit. 5. 1635.In which he declares that it is lawful and in ſome Caſes expedient to uſe a ſet Form of Prayer. And there being in reſpect of place and company three ſorts of Prayer; Publique in the Church, private in the Family, and ſecret by a mans ſelf: he concludes that p. 314the greateſt liberty may be taken in ſolitary Prayer, by a mans ſelf; becauſe we are ſure, provided we be humble and upright, that God will not upbraid any man, for his Method, Order, Words or utterance. In private Prayer he thinks we may not take ſo great a Liberty as when alone: and juſtly fears that ſome well affected people have been ſomewhat faulty and offenſive in this; the weaker ſort being not ſo capable of that kind of Prayer which is called conceived or extemporall, varying every time in words, phraſe, manner and order, though the matter and ſubſtance be the ſame. But as for the publique Congregation, ſpecial care, he tells you, muſt be had that nothing be done in praying, preaching or adminiſtring the Sacraments, but what is decent and orderly, becauſe there many eyes do ſee us, and many ears hear us; and upon this account it is expedient for the moſt part to keep a conſtant Form both of matter and words, &c.

This was the Doctrine of the Divines of thoſe dayes, though it be not reliſhed now by thoſe, who reverence their Name more than their Books. Dr. Preſton himſelf (another Name which p. 315this man vapours withal) declared his opinion about the lawfulneſs of ſet forms in the firſt Sermon hhPreached before he was Chaplain, as Mr. Ball tells us in his Life, publiſhed by Mr. Clark p. 112.he preached before King James at Royſton, upon 1 John 16. where he hath theſe remarkable words, which will be thought too ſcornful by many of you now. That a ſet Form of prayer is lawful much need not be ſaid: the very newneſs of the contrary opinion is enough to ſhow the Vanity and falſhood of it. The truth of it is, it was ſo new, that there were few of thoſe old Divines but they oppoſed it in their conſtant practice. This Dr. now named, Dr. Sibbs, Mr. Hilderſham, Mr. Dod, Mr. Bradſhaw, &c. alway uſing one Set Form of Prayer before their Sermons, (and ſome of them in their Families.) For which the laſt mentioned gave this reaſon, as Mr. Gataker tels us in his Life; iiLife of Mr. Wil. Bradſhaw, publiſhed by Mr. Clark, p. 67. in Folbecauſe he ſitation in prayer is more offenſive than in other diſcourſe, unto profane ones eſpecially; whereof in mixed multitudes and meetings ſome lightly, too many uſually, are. And he affirmed this alſo to have been Mr. Th. Cartwrights practice with whom he ſometimes converſed. And Mr. Clark I remember, confeſſes that Mr. Sam. Crook, who dyed no longer ago than 1649. was the first man who brought p. 316conceived prayer into uſe in thoſe parts where he lived; in Somerſet-ſhire. kkCollect of … o… … Divi…, p. 38 …If you would ſee more of this you may read Dr. Preſtons Book, called the Saints daily Exerciſe, ll…. 6. 1 31. p. ….ſet forth by Dr. Sibbs, and Mr. Davenport; where you will find this Queſtion largely handled, whether we m…y …ſe ſet Forms of Prayer? and reſolved aſſirmatively. For which he gives many reaſons.

N. C.

I'le ſeek them when I am at leiſure.

C.

Only remember this for the preſent, that he ſaith he knows no ob…ection of weight againſt it. How do you like this Doctrine now?

N. C.

Is not the Spirit ſtraitned in ſtinted Prayer? And doth not a man find his Spirit bounded and limited when he is tyed to a Form?

C.

That's the main objection, he tells you; to which he gives three ſubſtantial Anſwers. The firſt is, that thoſe very men who are againſt this and uſe this reaſon, do the ſame thing daily in the Congregation; for when another prays, that is a Set Form to him that hears it; who hath no liberty to run out though his Spirit ſhould be more large; but is bound to keep his mind upon it. And therefore p. 317if that were a ſufficient reaſon that a man might not uſe a ſet Form, becauſe the Spirit is ſtraitned, it would not be lawfull to hear another pray (though it were a conceived Prayer) becauſe in that caſe his Spirit is limited. Secondly, he tells you, though the Spirit be limited at that time, yet he hath a liberty at other times to pray as freely as he will. It is no general ty, though he be then bound up. And Thirdly, he adds that there is no ty and reſtraint upon the Spirit, becauſe there is a ty to words. For the largneſs of the heart ſtands not ſo much in the multitude and variety of Expreſſions, as in the extent of the affections; which have no ty upon them, when we are tyed in words.

N. C.

Too many words will not do well in any other thing. Let us therefore make an end of this.

C.

I ſhall only tell you that if you turn a leaf or two further mmSaints daily Exerciſe p. 84.you will find another caſe reſolved about the geſture of Prayer; which he would have to be very reverend, eſpecially in publique. And that Mr. Hilderſham exhorts to kneeling as the fitteſt geſture: And complains of thoſe that neglected it; as alſo of ſuch as would not ſit bare at the p. 318reading of the holy Scriptures: wiſhing withall that when we come in and go out of the Church we would give ſome ſignification of ſuch reverence as now is rather derided than approved. By all which you may ſee without travelling through the reſt of the Authors which he mentions, that they will not down with your ſqueamiſh ſtomacks; and have been thruſt out of doors by a number of frivolous writers among you, who can better humour the childiſh fancies, and the corrupt appetites of the profeſſors of this Age. This very man is one of them, who jeers thoſe old Puritans (as they were called) as well as us, when he compares a man that uſes a Form of Prayer to an Horſe in a Mill **Page 97. of his Book.which goes round and round, and cannot eaſily go out of his way, if he do but jog on, though he be hood-winkt and blindfolded.

N. C.

But Religion as he ſayes, is like to ſuffer greatly by the not reading of thoſe good writers.

C.

Thats ſpoken only upon ſuppoſition, that our Miniſters have made them to be rejected; but if they have been the cauſe of it themſelves, he can tell you another ſtory. Doubt not of it, he can find you Authors p. 319enough as good as they if not better, and as many as you pleaſe; twenty, or forty, or more. Say how many you would have, for it's all one to him whether it be twenty or forty nnPag. 55, 56, 57.(one is as ſoon ſaid as the other) and they ſhall be ſuch Treatiſes, that there are not better extant in the World of thoſe Subjects.

N. C.

Do you think he will write againſt himſelf?

C.

That's a very ſmall matter with one that minds not what he writes. In a twelve moneths time you may think it is eaſie for a man to forget what he hath writ; and ſo no wonder that he who told us in 1668. that ſome good Scholars were put to ſuch hard ſhifts as to beg their bread, the Laws at that time being too hard for them, and too ſtrictly obſerved to let them get any ſufficient employment for a livelihood, ooRebuilding of London, p. 331.&c. ſhould tell us now 1669. that the ſevere Ordinances ſignified next to nothing where he was converſant; and ſhould ask to what purpoſe it is to mention them, as long as I tell of no Execution done by them. ppSober Anſw. p. 254, 255.But he can do a great deal more than this comes to: in an hours time or ſo, he can forget what he hath ſaid, and ſay the contrary. In the 31. p. 320page of his Preface he tells you, that he hath endeavoured to reſtore me with a Spirit of meekneſs; notwithſtanding that, but two leaves before (p. 26.) he had excuſed himſelf for not making a milder anſwer; fleſh and blood being not able to bear ſome of my expreſſions. In his Book alſo, if you mark it, he deſires you to believe he is far from being one of thoſe who ſay (as if we were the Jews or Gentils he ſpeaks of in another place) For what acquaintance ſhould we perſwade our people to joyn with you? Or how came we to ow you ſo much Service? qqPage 221.And yet he hath not writ many leaves before he tells us in plain termes, without excepting himſelf, that the N. C. Do think that they or ſome of them have been martyr'd by you or by your means and are killed all the day long; now they think it unreaſonable upon that accouat (if upon no other) that they ſhould alſo be Martyrs for you; that they ſhould be repairers of your breaches, who have been the makers of theirs. rrPage 229.But there is nothing ſo pleaſant as to ſee him who laughs at a Ratheriſm (as he calls it) which he brings in by head and ſhoulders, not knowing who it was that ſpoke thoſe words, the plotting of Treaſon is dangerous, p. 321rather than otherwiſe ſſpag. 266.fall into a groſs one himſelf and not know it. It is juſt with God to puniſh you with perpetual Barrenneſs, as he did Mical, But I would rather deprecate than wiſh it. So he ttpag. 27.; as if he had been at a ſtand uuThey are his owne words in the other caſe.and at ſome uncertainty, whether he might not altogether or almoſt as well pray God to curſe his neighbour, as deſire he would not: and therefore brings in his opinion but with a modeſt rather, or in the way of Ratheriſm.

N. C.

I had rather he had let both alone.

C.

Come, leave off that idle toying with words, which he and his fellows are ſo guilty of.

N. C.

And are not many among your ſelves in the ſame predicament? Doth not he tell you what ware he is able to farniſh you with all of this kind? p. 51.

C.

He may open his ſhop when he pleaſes: But it will be nothing to the parpoſe. For we do not call ſuch by the name of powerful men as you do; nor do they pretend to ſuch high illuminations, and to ſpeak as men inſpired; which makes toying and fooling far worſe in your preachers than it can be many of ours.

p. 322N. C.

He wiſhes that thoſe whom you reprove would avoid ſpeaking and writing of ſome things.

C.

What they are is hard to tell, for he juſtifies all that I have noted, and imagines alſo that I have done my worſt. Which I will not now demonſtrate to be falſe, becauſe if what he wiſhes be done, I proteſt I have my end. Which was not to abuſe any man, much leſs to make Books of the follies I ſee in theirs; but only to give ſuch light touches of them, that they and others, on all ſides might write and ſpeak after a better and more ſober faſhion. This which I tell you now in ſhort, is the very bottom of my heart: if he will not believe it, he may chuſe. Let him take his courſe, and force me, if he think good, to ſay that in our own defence, which I have no ſuch mind, as he imagines, to meddle withal.

N. C.

For my part, I have ſo little liſt to heare more of theſe matters, that I am inclined to bid you good night.

C.

Stay a while. We have ſcarce lookt into the Body of his Book for thoſe falſhoods and lyes which are ſcattered there without number. But ſince you begin to grow weary, I will only note p. 323ſome of the moſt notorious. This for one, that … our Miniſters app opriate and arrogate to themſelves the name of Rational Divines; xxp. 16.17.Nay, intitle themſelves and their party to all the reaſon and learning in England. yyp. 143, and he is at it again p. 168. and other places.A pure calumny; and ſo ungrounded, that we have all the reaſon in the World (which is a great deale more) to ſay that he is a Lyar. For any man, till this new Logician took the chair, might pretend to ſpeak better reaſon in ſome matters than another man, without being thought to ingroſs all the reaſon in the Country; or to have commenced D^r. in reaſon either.

N. C.

You ſaid you are Maſter of reaſon.

C.

So is every body that hath any: and I believe he needed not to commence Maſter or Batchelor either, to have as much wit as he hath at this preſent.

N. C.

Your Miniſters he ſaith have worn thoſe phraſes thredbare, the reaſon of the thing, and the nature of the thing.

C.

He will weare his credit ſo bare by writing on this faſhion, that no man will take his word for a farthing. They affect no ſuch phraſes; as all know that p. 324heare them. Though it concerns us all, I muſt tell you, to look to our Reaſon, when we have been told by thoſe that robb'd us of ſo many other things, that perhaps we ſhall find them plundring us of our Reaſon and unde ſtanding zzEpiſtle to Flaſhes of Lightnings &c. 1648.: that is, impoſing ſpiritual non ſenſe upon us.

N. C.

Pray enter not into that matter now.

C.

If you have any reaſon left, you cannot but ſee how much he wrongs me when he tells you in round words that I deny a man can pray by the aſſiſtance of the ſpirit of God. p. 47. This is a rapper.

N. C.

He explains himſelf afterward. p. 89.

C.

What if his Readers never look ſo far into his Book? Then down goes this ly as glibly as that aſſertion of T. W. that the Platoniſts deny the immortality of the ſoul.aaThe Lucianists & Platoniſts deny the immortality of the Sonl. Morning Exerc. Methodized. 1660. pag. 615.

N. C.

I underſtand none of their opinions.

C.

There are no Philoſophers that are ſo zealous for the immortality of ſouls as theſe whom he joynes with the Lucianiſts, who derided all Philoſophers what ſo ever, even Epicurus himſelf when the humour took them.

p. 325N. C.

They are all alike to me, who have no acquaintance with them.

C.

Nor are like to have if you truſt ſuch men as theſe; who venture to ſay any thing that you may think them learned, without any reaſon. To which Philag. is ſuch an enemy (whatſoever he pretends) that when I only. mention many things which I have heard from our Miniſter which are not commonly preached on by yours, and plainly intimated that I could name more bbFriendly debate. p. 152. first Edition; which I deſire the reader to conſult, that he may ſee what this man is., he concludes boldly that I have quoted the things which our Miniſter doth mainly inſiſt upon p. 139. and ſaith, this is the Body of his Divinity; the whole compaſſe by which he ſeemes to fail in the whole courſe of his Miniſtry. ccpag. 137.What cannot ſuch a man do to uphold their cauſe who can … ſuch a palpable ly as this? and when I ſpeak expreſly of growth in Godlineſs, and of things ſupperadded to what are vulgarly talkt of, and did not mention all neither, ſpends ſeveral pages to ſhow how defective the body of our practical Divinity is. And what a caſe are thoſe poor people in, who follow ſuch guides as make no conſcience of ſpeaking truth themſelves, or have not wit enough to apprehend it when it p. 326is plainly ſpoke by other men.

N. C.

You are troubled I perceive at theſe things.

C.

For nothing, I proteſt, but the naughty humour of ſuch men as theſe. Otherways, it is a great confirmation of the ſtrength of my Book, that he is fain to make lies his refuge, that he may make a ſhow of a confutation. And as the blind, we ſay, ſwallow many a fly, ſo will you I doubt many a ly. For if you follow him to p. 144. He will tell you that the paſſages which I quote concerning their railing and bitterneſs againſt us are but few; when the contrary is apparent. He himſelf within two pages ddpag. 146.takes notice of others beſides thoſe few which he here mentions. Nay he ſinds one more then I named to that purpoſe; whom he calls one of the Malcas's. Who was not quoted for any ſpeeches againſt thoſe by whoſe decree he was cropt (who it ſeemes were Apoſtolical men, according to the ſtate of this reſemblance) but for bitter words againſt your ſelves. It is ſome thing ſtrange that they being ſo few, if you believe him, whom I cited, he could not name them right. But I am fain, he ſaith, to look back as far as 1642. p. 327for ſome of them; and as far as 1621. for others [that is for one] which inſinuates that I could not or did not cite many of later dayes. Both which are falſe; for I noted ſeveral paſſages out of M^r. Bridg, printed within theſe two years, wherein he plainly makes us Antichristian, and the Prelates all one with the Beaſt —

N. C.

Pray repeat them not, nor name any more.

C.

Which I can as eaſily do, as ſhow the loudneſs of thar ly, that we began with them first eeAgainſt which Mart. Mare-prel. is a witneſs.p. 146. and the nakedneſs of that excuſe for their tailing, from the general conflagration of Church Government, p. 145. As if that could be a provocation to them, when they had deſired and contrived it themſelves, and clapt their hands at the flames. Witneſs the great expreſſions of joy and glorying which we then heard, and his own acknowledgment, when he tells you, they were as firebrands newly pluckt out of the Fire ffpag 146.: which deliverance it ſeemes in ſtead of provoking their thanksgivings to God, inraged their ſpirits to throw about firebrands, arrows and death. Theſe were very great Saints without all doubt; who deſerved his Apology and may in p. 328good time come into the catalogue of Martyrs.

N. C.

I believe he would only try what he could ſay for them —

C.

Like a true Sophiſter; who I am afraid ſtrained his Conſcience a little to make excuſes for that, which he knew was too black to be blanched; and therefore I leſs wonder that he makes bold with it that he may be able to calumniate me. Making you believe that I would perſwade the people that there is nothing of true Religion, in a ſincere aptneſs and promptneſs to good diſcourſe. p. 171. (a moſt horrid ly) And that they may be better imployed the mean time p. 172. Where he is at his old trade of curtailing my ſentences; for I did not poſitively ſay that they might be better ſtudying other things, but only upon ſuppoſal that they did not underſtand what they ſaid. ggSec Friendly Deb. pag. 179.Which ſhows what an inclination this man hath to falſify, and how vain he is in going about to make me contradict my ſelf, and alſo how much nearer he is to madneſs, or ſome thing elſe, than he thinks me. For in fine be pronounces, that I ſay, Heavenly diſcourſe may be ſpared or let ale…e p. 186. Such another forgery is that Pa… ciple p. 329which he ſaith ſeemes to be mine, that no man can love another but in the ſight and upon the account of a reward. p. 192. Which is as true, as that I was the Aggreſſor and firſt ſet upon the N. C. hhpag. 290.and that my Books have been magnified as if they deſerved to be bound up, if not with the Bible yet with the Liturgy?iipag. 291.

N. C.

Why? did not you fall upon them before they meddled with you?

C.

No. I only vindicated and defended our Church and Miniſters from the odious aſperſions caſt upon them by words and writings, as if they were Antichriſtian, Babyloniſh, Apoſtatical, Superſtitious, formal and without the power of Godlineſs —

N. C.

You did more than ſo.

C.

That is, in defending myſelf, who am a Member of this Church, and other men, I turned the charge upon you, and that is called an Aſſault. But it is very new reformed language: For I never heard that they who defended themſelves, though they gave a wound to their Enemy, were accuſed of any crime. Surely, as the Scotch Gentleman ſaith. kkModeſt Conference. 1669. pag. 63.You who have been ſo much for deſenſive Armes, may at leaſt allow us to defend our ſelves as well as p. 330we can with our Tongues and Pens.

N. C.

I'le give you leave to do any thing, if you will but make an end.

C.

You ſhall be troubled with no more upon this head, then theſe two things; the one about excommunication, the other about playes.

N. C.

It's well you bring them to my mind, I thought to have askt you about thoſe very things. He tells us of Lay-Thunders, and Lay-diſpenſers of Excommunications, who are the nimbleſt at caſting abroad the Thunderbolts. p. 240.

C.

He doth ſo: and deſerves to be ſoundly ratled for that Calumny. There are no Lay-men who excommunicate any body, as he might have learnt, if he had been a careful Student, from a ſubſtantial Book. It is the Anſwer llPrinted at Oxford. 1603. pag. 21, 22.of the Vice-chancelour, and Doctors &c. of the Univerſity of Oxford, to the Petition of certain Miniſters deſiring Reformation, when King James came to the Crown. Among other Enormities in Diſcipline which they complained of this was one, that Excommunication came forth in the name of lay perſons, Chancellors, Officials &c. To which the reply was, that ſuppoſe it true, yet the Chancellor, or Commiſſary is not a p. 331lay man in this caſe; the Ordinary and he are but one Judg: or rather whatſoever he doth in this behalf, he doth it in the Authority of the Ordinary, according to the power committed to him. A thing not unuſual in the civil ſtate wherein the Lord Chancellor doth diſpoſe of many things which are originally in the King &c. But ſecondly, no lay Chancellor or Commiſſary what ſoever doth at any time excommunicate any man, or ſends out in his own name any excommunication. For this is the practiſe of the Church of England, in the cenſuring of notorious and more grievous crimes, the Arch-Biſhop, the Bp. the Dean, the Arch-Deacon, or a Prebendary that is a Prieſt pronounceth the Sentence in his own Perſon. And in matters of leſs offence, as contumacy in not appearing or the like, the Vicar General, Official, or Commiſſary that is not in Holy Orders holds this courſe. Firſt upon knowledg and examination of the cauſe he adjudges the p…rty worthy to be excommunicated. Then the Miniſter (aſſociated to him by expreſs authority from the Ordinary) doth pronounce the Sentence of excommunication againſt him. Laſtly the p. 332Chancellour ſends to the Paſtor of the Pariſh where that party dwells, requiring him publiquely to declare the ſaid party to be a perſon excommunicated by the Sentence of the Miniſter his aſſociate. And all this according to the form of the Articles ſet forth by her Majeſty. 1597.