Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3, Discourse (5 of 5)

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3 · Discourse (5 of 5)

p. 332N. C.

I am ſatisfyed, there are no Lay-thunderers. But me thinks they ſhould not meddle at all in this matter.

C.

You reprove that in others which you allow in your ſelves, who if you could have had your wills, would have brought in a great many lay perſons that ſhould have had a hand in excommunication. And as for the ſlender Offences which this man talks of, we know well enough what they are; no leſs than contumacy and contempt: concerning which read what the Scottiſh diſcipline ſaith in the Order of excommunication. mmPrinted 1571. Chap: 4.The words are theſe, thus any ſmall Offence may juſtly deſerve excommunication, by reaſon of the contempt and diſobedience of the Offender. But this is not all that I have to ſay to this man: He receives reports againſt ſome of the Elders of the Church, when he confeſſes he can charge none of them particularly, and p. 333thereupon accuſes them, for paſſing that direful Sentence ſo ſuddenly, as that they ſay, I admoniſh thee, I admoniſh thee, I excommunicate thee, all in a Breath. A moſt foul calumny; of which I may ſay as Biſhop Hall to Robinſon and his faction, having ſeparated from us, you deviſe ſlanders to colour your ſin. We muſt be ſhameful that you may be innocent. nnApol. againſt the Browniſts ſect. 33.Some Heathens would not have done thus: for Papinian a famous Lawyer choſe rather to dy (as S^t. J. Heywood obſerves ooLife of Edw. the ſixth. p. 84.) than defend the murder which the Emperour Cardacalla had done upon his Brother Geta; but ſome Divines are ſtill found who deſtain their profeſſion and the good Arts they have learnt, not only by defending factions, but by publiſhing odious untruths upon report and credit of others only. And yet, if this were true, it is a thing which they of the ſeparation have alledged againſt one another as much as they did againſt us. For Geo. Johnſon told his fellow Separatiſts at Amſterdam, that they had excommunication as ready, as a Biſhop hath a priſon. ppBiſhop Hall Ib. ſect. 51.To which you may add that no excommunication can be more ſuddenly and raſhly pronounced, than many of you p. 334have excommunicated your ſelves from our publike Prayers and the ſupper of the Lord. So your predeceſſors were wont to ſpeak of the Separation in which you now are. Divers ſay they, qqLetter of many Miniſters in old England to thoſe of new 1637.have left our Aſſemblys becauſe of a ſtinted Liturgy and excommunicated themſelves from the ſupper of the Lord, and having turned aſide themſelves, labour to enſnare others: and how headily and ſuddenly many did this, is ſo well known that we need not ſtand to debate it now.

N. C.

No. Now I pray you give me leave to play.

C.

I hope you are not yet tired, becauſe you are ſo jocular; I was going to tell you, that he accuſes me, with the ſame face that he hath ſaid all the reſt, as an Advocate for playes, rrpag. 180.when I only undertook to juſtify ſome, whom you falſely call ungodly, merely upon the ſcore of going to a play: And he would make you believe that I plead for them, and ſayes, we need not wiſh for playes; ſſpag. 182. 184.when I ſay in expreſs words, our Miniſters do allow them, to go to a play and in due meaſure; Incourage them to it they do not &c. ttFriendly Deb. pag. 182.What think you? Is there any ſhame left in this man —

N. C.

He tells you, if it be ordinary p. 335in publike playes to introduce obſcene … prophane paſſages, he is an Enemy to them ſo far forth.

C.

What need he tell me that, which I had told him before? uuFriendly Deb. pag. 192.Have we nothing to do, but to ſay the ſame thing over and over again? Or can he ſay it better? If he can, let us hear it.

N. C.

In theſe dayes men are apt to take too much liberty, and ſo if you give them leave to go to any, they will go perhaps to all.

C.

That's better ſaid, then any thing I find in him: but there is an Anſwer ready in a Divine xxDr. Feately's preface to Mr. Garakers defence of his Book of Lots againſt Al…, ….that he hath mentioned, if you do but apply what he hath diſcreetly ſaid in the caſe of luſorie lots, to this of Playes. Albeit, ſaith he, we are all apt to take too much hold of any point of liberty reached unto us out of Gods word; yet Gods truth muſt not be ſuppreſſed becauſe of mens Errors, neither is it a ſafe way to go about to cure an error in practiſe, by another errour in judgment: I mean to reform the abuſe of playes by totally condemning the uſe it ſelf of them. Though a Chirurgion mean never ſo well in letting his Patient blood, when he needs it much, yet p. 336if he ſtrike not the right vein, he had better have ſpared his pains. The Lo… open the eyes of all that ſeek to ſerve him in ſincerity and ſingleneſs of heart, that neither by inlarging their liberty, they open a gap to licentiouſneſs, nor yet by too much reſtraining it, lay a ſnare on weak conſciences.

N. C.

A good prayer: but to acknowledg the lawfulneſs of going to them, opens a gap which they will make as wide as they pleaſe.

C.

I cannot help that. But I no more make way to the abuſe, by defending the uſe of them (as M^•. Gataker ſpeaks in the other caſe) than ſome of the ancient Fathers made way to the abuſe of wine, when they defended againſt the Manichees, Tatianiſts and Encratites, that wine was Gods good Creature which men might lawfully drink: Or than ſo many of late Writers as defend the lawfulneſs of an Oath lawfully uſed againſt the Anahaptiſts that utterly condemn all uſe of it, do thereby make way for the juſtification of that ordinary vain ſwearing which is as rife, nay far rifer then any abuſe of playes. For they are moſtly, if not only, in London, but the other all the Kingdom over.

p. 337N. C.

But the abuſe can hardly be ſeparated from the uſe.

C.

No? that's ſtrange, why not as well as in drinking Wine? To me this ſeems far more the eaſier of the two. For men can have no more of a Play for their money, than the Actors have provided for them, but Wine they may have as long as their money laſts in their pockets, and longer too. And if there be any thing immodeſt or prophane in Playes, that may be eaſily remedied by the Maſter of the Revels, who, according to the Ancient conſtitution ought to ſee that nothing be ſpoken but what is fit to be heard. Many I am ſure who ſtand in need of ſome recreation, and find them no vnfitting Antidotes againſt melancholy and other untoward paſſions, deſire none but thoſe which are cleanly, and do no violence to honeſty. And they are not ſo dull but they conceive it poſſible to reconcile pleaſure with vertue, and that as there is a compoſed melancholy and folly, ſo there may be a free and merry wiſdom. You perhaps have not, but others have met with one, that tells them, there is an Art of uſing pleaſure innocently; which was profeſſed anciently by Ariſtippus in Greece, who p. 338never did any thing undecent or unbecoming, and yet was alwayes Merry. This Art, as the ſame perſon teaches them, was corrupted by Petronius and Tigellinus at Rome, who abuſed it as poyſoners do Phyſick. And therefore as heretofore Magiſtrates were created expreſsly to have a care of the pleaſures of the people, and beſides the Edicts of the Republick, there were under the Emperours a Tribune for pleaſures; ſo they heartily deſire it may be again. They would have none publiquely allowed, but what paſſes the ſevereſt judgment of Wiſe and ſober men: and would be glad to ſee ſuch a Science and Diſcipline of pleaſure, as that Gentleman ſaies be hath ſeen in the Formularies of Caſſioderus. They conclude, as he doth, that it is not juſt to accuſe the purity of things for the intemperance of men; and that it is not credible the good things of this life were made only for the wicked.

N. C.

But many intelligent men, who think Playes lawful enough, yet wiſh you had not medled with them.

C.

Why ſo?

N. C.

Becauſe a running Horſe they ſay needs no ſpurring; men run to them faſt enough already.

p. 339C.

There's nothing new in this. I do not ſpur any running Horſe by my Book (as Mr. Gataker well anſwers in the like caſe) but endeavour only to ungird ſome that have been girt in more than is meet; and to eaſe ſuch as might be thereby not girt only, but galled too. It was meet in the Judgment of as intelligent perſons as you mention, though not to invite men to them, which I have not done, yet to oppoſe your rigid opinion of the unlawfulneſs of them; becauſe it invades a point of Chriſtian liberty, and it is apt alſo to make you very cenſorious. If thoſe two reaſons be not able to juſtifie my prudence, I will not defend it with more words.

N. C.

I think they have been generally condemned.

C.

By whom?

N. C.

By Godly men.

C.

What? as unlawful.

N. C.

I cannot tell: they generally ſhake their heads at them.

C.

That is, they dare not ſay they are unlawful, and yet will not ſay they are lawful. And ſo they keep poor people in bondage to perpetual Scruples, and leave a room for their own cenſoriouſneſs. The Lords and Commons I am p. 340ſure had no opinion of their unlawfulneſs in the beginning of the late Wars.

N. C.

How do you know?

C.

By their Ordinance of the 2. of Sept. 1642. concerning Stage-Playes, which only ſaith; that ſince publique ſports do not well agree with publique calamities, nor publique Stage-playes with ſeaſons of humiliation; it is therefore thought fit and ordained that while Ireland continues in ſo diſtreſſed, and England in ſo diſtracted eſtate, and ſet times of humiliation are alſo continued for theſe ſad cauſes, publique Stageplayes ſhould ceaſe and be forborn. And though it appear they were not intirely obeyed; yet in their Ordinance of the 20. of Octob. 1645. wherein they give rules and Directions concerning ſuſpenſion from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, they decree no more than this (about ſuch matters) in they point of ſcandal, that no perſon who uſes any Dancing, Playing at Dice or Cards, or any other Game, or makes, or reſorts unto Playes, interludes, fencing, &c. upon the Lords Day, ſhall be admitted to it. But there is not a word of the excluſion of thoſe who uſe theſe …creations on other dayes.

p. 341N. C.

Sure they did ſomething more for the prohibiting of Playes.

C.

I am not ignorant of it, They put down all Playes in London, VVeſtminſter, Middleſex and Surry, by an Ordinance of 22 Octob. 1647. and another of 16 of Febr. following, and ſet a penalty on thoſe that Acted or went to them. And yet for all this, the Ordinance for the ſetling of the Form of Church Government to be uſed in England and Ireland, which came after theſe; yyAug. 29. 1648. Die Martis. p. 31.doth not ſhut out ſuch perſons from the holy Communion, unleſs they make or reſort unto them on the Lords Day, as afore-ſaid; and then they reject thoſe who uſe Hawking, Hunting, Courſing or Fiſhing, as much as theſe.

N. C.

However many wiſh you had been affected in writing as you ſay you are in practice, that is, not to have medled with them.

C.

They muſt let me have my wiſh too; that they would well conſider what my reaſons were, which I have now told you.

N. C.

You have one pittiful reaſon wherewith you plead the lawfulneſs of Playes, the ſum whereof is this; that to ſee a Play is not ſo ſinful or not worſe than p. 342to ſpend the time in hearing long stories of the Biſhops, or ſuch and ſuch a Parſon or Neighbour (as you ſay, p. 187.) therefore it is lawful. A most wretched Argument; as if you ſhould prove that theft is good and lawful, becauſe Adultery is as bad, or worſe than that. Are you a Maſter of Reaſon and bring ſo weak an Argument as this?zzTheſeare his words, p. 184, 185.

C.

I have ſo much reaſon as to make you ſenſible that either he doth not underſtand common ſenſe, or elſe is ſo malicious as to diſgrace good Senſe (after his pittiful faſhion) among thoſe who examine nothing, but believe as others inform them.

N. C.

How ſo?

C.

Do I grant or ſuppoſe that it is ſinful to ſee a play? Is not the very drift of my diſcourſe quite contrary, to juſtifie thoſe who go to them, if they be otherwiſe blameleſs? Doth not he himſelf ſay as much, when he calls me an Advocate for Playes, and tells you I plead for them? What ſhall we make of ſuch a peſtilent corrupter of plain ſenſe —

N. C.

I did not think of this; elſe I ſhould not have mentioned it.

C.

Nor he, either of this or of any p. 343thing elſe that I ſaid, but clatters out of the hollow cabinet of his cheek (as the Biſhop of Galloway ſome where ſpeaks aaAnſwer to Tripartite, Apol. p. 171.) any thing that comes readieſt into it, never going into himſelf as becomes a wiſe and modeſt man to adviſe with his own mind ſeriouſly before he utter any thing. For if he had, he would not but have inſtantly ſeen how inconſiſtent theſe two are, to make it lawful to go to playes and to ſuppoſe it ſinful: which contradiction if he could have found in my Book, he needed not have troubled himſelf any further; for I had effectually confuted my ſelf. But if he had only look't, half a minute upon thoſe lines which he refers you to; bbFriendly Debate, p. 187.and be capable to underſtand a diſcourſe; he would have ſeen that I did not compare one bad thing with another, but an innocent thing with that which is notoriouſly bad. Only I ſaid (after the faſhion of thoſe who ſpeak modeſtly) Why ſhould they not be thought to ſpend their time as well as you that can hear long ſtories of the Biſhops, &c. when I might have ſaid, they ſpend it a great deal better, or there is no compare between them. And yet he hath the impudence to declaim on this Argument, and to tell you what Epithets he p. 344could beſtow on it; and at laſt to conclude triumphantly, that he hath convinced ccAs you may ſee p. 186.me of the fallac…o…ſneſs of this reaſon, which he himſelf compoſed. You may think it too ſharp, but I know one that beſtowed ſuch another cenſure on him, as Balzac did upon ſuch another Scribler; after a tedious peruſal of whoſe Book he concluded thus, My Grammar cannot find conſtruction in it, nor my Logick common ſenſe. When you have peruſed and conſidered this and ſeveral other paſſages, do you judge how much is fit to be abated of the rigour of this Sentence?

N. C.

I have ſomething elſe to do. Pray let me ask you one Queſtion which you find in him (and he ſpeaks much of it ddPag. 181, 182, 183.) why do you allow that to others in Print, which you deny to others in practice? Why do you not go your ſelf, if it be ſo lawful? —

C.

I would ask him a Queſtion too, but that I think it vain to demand a reaſon of him that hath it not.

N. C.

What is that?

C.

Nay, it is a very eaſie one, and needs no long ſtudy to make an anſwer to it.

N. C.

What is it then?

C.

Why did he not read my Book p. 345better? muſt we write a new Book for every particular man that will not be at the pains to mind what we have writ already: but only Queſtion's and Catechiſes us about thoſe points which every child can reſolve from what hath been already declared? I told you there were ſome perſons who were above them and could entertain themſelves with better pleaſures to their liking. eeFriendly Debate, p. 184.and others who did not think this pleaſure ſo expedient for them in their place and Relation. Why could not he have ſuppoſed me at leaſt among the latter ſort, without asking any Queſtions? or ſince it is a thing indifferent whether a man go or not, why ſhould I be bound to give him a reaſon why I do not uſe them?

N. C.

But may not the reaſon be, becauſe you think them to be generally prophane or obſcene? He ſuſpects, they would hardly take with a great many people, though they were never ſo ingenious, if there were not ſome ſuch evil mixture in them.

C.

He hath an il-natur'd imagination. I do not think the generality of thoſe that frequent them, would have them ſtain'd, either with thoſe or any other ſuch qualities. However, the perſons p. 346whom I pleaded for abhor ſuch things as much as any of you can do: and ſome Playes they abhor a great deal more.

N. C.

I do not believe it: the better ſort of us abhor all.

C.

Stay there. Philagathus himſelf can be preſent at a breaking up, and there ſee an innocent modeſt Comedy Acted by young Schollars: ffPag. 179.which, either out of love of Tautologie, or leaſt you ſhould not believe it, he tells you over again in his long-winded Preface. But I can tell you of a Play that, when time was, you could all be contented to read and ſee Acted too: though more dangerous a great deal than this Childrens ſport. It is called Englands Tragedy, Acted by four living creatures and two killing Beaſts. ggI find not the year meationed; but appears by the matter to have been w…itabout 1642. being upon occaſion of the …ommiſſion of Array.The four living creatures, 4. Rev. 6. were the Militant Church warring for the Lamb; that is, your own dear ſelves. For the two killing Beaſts 13. Rev. 1, 11. he tells you were the malignant party warring for Antichriſt: the Servants of a ſtrange God, and Rebels againſt Iſrael, as another preſently after ſtiled them. hhLate Covenant aſſorted, 1643. p. 14.The Prologue of this Tragedy began with Honorius and Arcadius; the Acts and Scenes are moſt of them paſt, and now, ſaith he, it is come p. 347to its Epilogue, and the Witneſſes are ready to draw the Stage. Be with them therefore; Act your part, knowing that God is not far off to make Satans Synagogue bow down at the feet of the true Church. By which it appears that ſome of you could be content not only to read and ſee this horrid Tragedy, but to be Actors in it: perſwading your ſelves you ſaw the witneſſes riſing again and the Saints ſitting in the Throne. So we were told the next year, that they who took the Oxford-Covenant, had entred in Covenant with the Devil, to ſerve him, to work and ſtand up for him, to do as be doth, open his mouth in blaſphemy againſt God, his Name, his Tabernade, and them that dwell in Heaven iiIb. pag. 9.i. e. theſe Reformers taken up from the Stage, to the high places of Power. There they ſat deriding us on Earth; and this man, for his part, ſaid he, would laugh in ſpite of the Devil. kkIb. p. 10.And what was this ridiculous ſight think you? I'le tell you: The Kings party were ſworn by Covenant to endeavour the maintenance of Religion, and the Subjects Liberty. This and His Majeſties moſt ſacred proteſtation made a Comedy for him, when the Tragedy was ended; and the Devil himſelf (how p. 348ſhould he, when the man dwe… in Heaven?) could not ſpoil the ſport. By which I ſee you are not enemies to theſe recreations when the humour takes you; but would rather have all the mirth to your ſelves. For we muſt not ſo much as ſmile at all theſe follies, unleſs we can be content to be thought prophane; not venture without trembling to go and ſee a Play; for who can be ſecure llSober Anſw. p. 180.ſaith Phil. of ſeeing and hearing no wickedneſs there?

N. C.

That's a Queſtion would be reſolved.

C.

It's as idle as all the reſt. For many of thoſe which are daily Acted are to be ſeen in Print.

N. C.

Well! I never heard of any good, but of much hurt, that hath come by Playes.

C.

There are many other things of which you may ſay the ſame, and yet they may be innocent. But I can tell you of ſome good.

N. C.

What is that?

C.

The old Hiſtory of Fryer Francis being Acted by the then Earl of Suſſex, his Players at Linn in Norfolk, wherein a Woman was preſented, who doting upon a young Gentleman had (the more p. 349ſecurely to enjoy his affection) ſecretly murdered her Husband, whoſe Ghoſt haunted her, and at divers times in her moſt ſolitary retirements ſtood before her; there was a Towns-woman till then of good repute, who finding her Conſcience at this ſight extreamly troubled, ſuddenly ſhreeked and cryed out, O my Husband, my Husband, I ſee the Ghoſt of my Husband fiercely threatning and menacing me. At which ſhrill unexpected out-cry the people about her being amazed, they enquired the reaſon of it. When preſently without any further urging, ſhe told them that not ſeven years ago, to be poſſeſſed of ſuch a Gentleman (whom ſhe named) ſhe had poyſoned her Husband, whoſe fearful Image perſonated it ſelf (they are the words of my Author mmMr. Tho. Heywood, the Actors Vindic. Book third.) in the ſhape of that Ghoſt. This ſhe alſo voluntarily confeſſed before the Juſtices and was condemned for it; of all which there were many eye-witneſſes (beſides the Actors) living a little before this was written.nnIn King James his reign, as appears by the Book.

N. C.

So! Conſcience it ſeems hath been awakened at a Play. No wonder then you ſay one of W. B's Sermons is no better than a Play.ooPag. 187.

p. 350C.

I have left off now to wonder that he makes no Conſcience of what he ſaith. This I have ſhown you is a forgery of his own; which he hath further improved in his Preface into theſe lying words, which you heard before, One of his Sermons is not ſo good as a Play. ppPag. 20.He hath a diſpenſation it ſhould ſeem to write as he liſt; by which means he is able to confute any Book, even the Bible it ſelf. It is but changing the words, and leaving out ſome, or putting in others, according to his liking, and then they are for his purpoſe, to declaim againſt. Of this Legerdemain there are ſo many inſtances in his Book, that they alone are ſufficient to make a Volumn, if I ſhould go about to diſcover them all. If I ſay, it would not be amiſs, that their folly were a little chaſtiſed, who fancy they are perſecuted when they are not. qqFriendly Debate, p. 190.He ſhall tell you that I ſay, They who fancy themſelves perſecuted, ought to be chastiſed. rrP. 256. of his Anſw.If I ſay you account him a painful Preacher ffFriendly Debate, p. 194.who preaches often; he ſhall ſay, that I make you confeſs, you call him a plain Preacher who preaches often: As if we were ſo ſilly, ſaith he, as to think that to preach plainly, and to preach often were the ſame p. 351thing. ttP. 267. of his Anſw.Would not one think either that this man could not read, or read with other mens eyes, or elſe come to ill-diſpoſed and with ſuch naughty affections, that they diſturbed his light? It is painful Preachers as clear as can be in my Book, and plain P…eachers as manifeſtly in his. He is like thoſe people in Lucian uuIn his true Hiſt. Book firſt.that had eyes to take in and out as they pleaſed themſelves, or when they had loſt their own eyes, borrowed of other men. He ſees nothing I mean but what he pleaſes; and like the moſt of you, can be ſatisfied to believe others, and not ſee for himſelf.

N. C.

You have made haſt to get to the end of his Book, I perceive notwithſtanding your high charge he is not much to blame in ſuch like matters.

C.

Theſe offered themſelves moſt readily to my thoughts, but if you have a mind to go further back, with all my heart.

N. C.

You ſhall not lead me through the whole Book, if the labour be ſo tedious as you tell me.

C.

I proteſt as Biſhop Hall doth xxPoſtſcript to the deſence of the humble Remonſtrance.in another caſe, that I never ſaw any writer, that would dare to profeſs Chriſtian ſincerity, ſo fouly to overlaſh (and ſo ſhamefully p. 352to corrupt and pervert anothers words) as he doth: as if he made no Conſcience by what means he upholds a ſide, or wins a Proſelyte. He would have you think, for inſtance, that I maintain, that the Goſpel cheriſhes fear more than the Law, p. 41. when I only ſaid that a Chriſtian is moved by fear as well as hope, and that the things which the Goſpel threatens us withal, are more terrible than the threatnings of the Law. This is the manifeſt ſcope of my diſcourſe: and I ſtill maintain it to be true, that a man may be of an Evangelical Spirit who is moved to do his duty out of a fear of what Chriſt threatens, as much as out of a hope of what he promiſes. Nay, I do not ſee but one may have an Evang. Spirit, who is moved more by ſuch fear than he is by hope, though that was not the thing I undertook to make good. It was only this; that it is not a juſt Character of a Goſpel-Spirit, that it is put on rather by promiſes than threatnings. This I ſaid, and ſtill ſay, is falſe, which is not to affirm, as he would have it, that the Goſpel cheriſhes fear more than hope, but that it cheriſhes them equally; or rather that one may be a good Chriſtian who is moved p. 353as much by the one as by the other. By this you ſee either how dull and ſtupid he is, or how maliciouſly diſpoſed, who cannot underſtand ſo plain a diſcourſe. And yet he would have you think he is ſo ſagacious and hath ſo good a Noſe that he can ſmell yyPag. 42 I ſmell what you would be at, &c.my thoughts, even then when he miſ-reports my words, you make, ſaith he, as if the Moſaical ſpirit did fear only temporal calamities upon Body and Goods, &c. That word only is his own, not mine, as you may ſee if you will compare our Books together, though I muſt tell you, all that he hath ſaid to overthrow that poſition is of no more force than a ſmall puff of wind; for they might, and I doubt not did, know under the Old Teſtament, that there was a life to come of miſery and happineſs, though it was not declared by Moſes his Law. And ſo the meer Moſaical Legal Spirit (which we ſpoke of) may truly be ſaid to fear only thoſe calamities which were threatned by that carnal commandment. But he hath not done yet He makes you believe that I deny the Legal diſpenſation to be terrible and the Goſpel comfortable, p. 44. which is a groſs abuſe; for my poſition was, that this is not the difference between the diſpenſations, p. 354that the one is terrible and the other comfortable; becauſe both are terrible; and knowing the terror of the Lord, the Apoſtles perſwaded men. This he could not but ſee, and therefore to make work for himſelf, pulled my words aſunder. And as he could not find in his heart to ſpeak a word of the Impertinances I noted in VV. B. ſo he will needs undertake a defence of his words, when nothing is to be ſaid, but what will make them worſe. To trade in promiſes he tells you is a phraſe good enough: but do what he can to trade, or to deal (which he puts in the room of it) in promiſes implies buying and ſelling, a traffique which quite overthrows his conceit of abſolute promiſes. For we never heard of ſuch Trades, that can have commodities brought home to them and left with them for nothing, and without ſo much as their enquiring after them. Nor can all his tugging ſet him clear from his contradiction in making the promiſes abſolute, and yet conditional. If they be the one, they are not the other; nor can he ever bring them nearer than thus, that they may ſeem to be conditional, but indeed are not.

p. 355N. C.

Hath not God promiſed abſolutely to give belief and repentance to a certain number of Elect perſons?

C.

No.

N. C.

Now I ſee plainly what you are.

C.

Be not ſo confident: Neither his …or your eyes are good, you have no conſiderable underſtanding in theſe mat…ers. For whatſoever intentions and …rpoſes God hath of doing more for ſome perſons than for others, there is no declaration of this made by the promiſes …o them, but they all run conditionally. And if I had not ceaſed all wonder at …hat this man talks, his boldneſs would …cite that paſſion now, in maintaining …is poſition againſt me, that God pro…iſes to ſome, do what they will, that …hey ſhall repent and believe. This I …enied, and he oppoſes me in it, as you …ay ſee p. 37. of his Book. But thoſe …ery places, ſo unlucky he is in all things, …ich he brings to prove his aſſertion, …re a ſtrong confutation of 11 Ezek. …9.36. Ezek. 26. I will put a new ſpi… into you, &c. For as theſe promiſes …ere not made to ſome particular Elect …erſons, but to the whole Nation of the …s, ſo he elſe-where by the ſame p. 356Prophet, (Chap. 18.31.) require them to make them a new heart and a new Spirit, ſuppoſing that otherways they ſhould dye. Nay, he expreſsly tells them immediately after this promiſe zzEzek. 11.21.Ezek 11:21that as for thoſ… whoſe heart walked after their deteſtabl… things (notwithſtanding that he had put … new Spirit into them to walk in his Statutes) he would recompencetheir wayes upo… their own heads. All this ſhows he did nopromiſe to amend them and make the… walk in his wayes whether they would o… no; but that he only aſſured them of hi… Grace and the means of being made better, which if they did not uſe, and mak… them a new Spirit, after God had put i… into their hearts, they were like to periſh. Let him overthrow this if he ca… in as plain words as I have ſpoken it And there is another task alſo, and indeed the main buſineſs, if he will defend Mr. Br. which he hath not yet attempted; and that is to ſhow that it i… proper to the New Teſtament Spirit to trad… moſt or altogether in abſolute promiſe… He muſt reconcile this alſo with his ow… confeſſion, that no body knows how to app… … promiſe to themſelves aa…and th… … perſons can depend on no promi… … … are conditional. bb…Ho… p. 357…en I pray you, can this be the mark …f thoſe that are in Covenant, to be be… again by a promiſe, eſpecially the abſo…t promiſe, as I cite Mr. Br. words, ccFriendly Debate, p. 44.…hough he will take no notice of it? Can …hey be begotten without Faith? And can their faith depend on promiſes when there are none? Mr. Rutherford in my …ind deals more ſincerely and plainly with us, who tells us of a Believers relying …nd confiding in Christ through inſtinct, and know no ground.

N. C.

I do not think he ſayes any ſuch thing.

C.

I aſſure you they are his words, ddSer non at the Abbey, June 25. 1645. p. 51.if you can believe he ſaith true. And he tells you withal, that Faith is ſometime from inſtinct of Grace, rather than from Light of diſcourſe, eſpecially when we firſt believe and have nothing but a meer command and know not whither the promiſe and the Saviour belong to us or not: Even as the Infant that can make no uſe of diſcourſe, only truſts to the Mother or the Nurſe for Milk by meer inſtinct, having neither promiſe nor experience for it. In like manner, he ſaith, afterward though the promiſe may be forgotten and out of mind, and the aſſurance p. 358that Chriſt loved me before the Worl… be none at all, a Believer yet may rely and confide in Chriſt through inſtinct and know no ground. This is t… ſpeak out and not mince the matter▪ There are no abſolute promiſes that you can find at firſt: but it is as well, for you can believe without them and know n… ground; and then afterward you find theſe abſolute promiſes by the ſame ſecret inſtinct, as I ſuppoſe, for we can find none by all our diſcourſe.

N. C.

I did not intend to engage you… in this Diſpute.

C.

Nor I to enter farther into it, than was neceſſary to ſhow you how unjuſtly he vapours upon this occaſion, as if he had brought me upon my knees, when he hath not ſaid one word to the buſineſs. He talks I remember of arrows eePreface, p. 31.that he hath ſhot at me alone, whom he hath ſingled out from the reſt of the Herd. But I find, would you think it? that there is no ſuch way to be ſecure from them as to run to the mark. As for thoſe that I have ſhot, I will take ſo much confidence as to think, that though like the Buck he may ſtand a while with the Arrows in his ſide, and while he is hot not feel them much, yet you ſhall ſee him fall at laſt.

p. 359N. C.

The loudeſt Barkers are not alwayes the ſoreſt Biters.

C.

I find it ſo. Few men have been more bawl'd againſt by others, than I have been by him. He raiſes ſuch an out-cry as the Philoſophers were fained to do againſt Lucian, In the Dialogue called the Fiſhermen.when they cryed Arm, Arm, againſt this common Enemy, &c. But after all I am whole and ſound enough, he having rather ſnapt and nibled at ſome little bits of my Book, than faſtned ſolidly on any intire propoſition in it. When I ſay that the most that ſober men have ſaid (as far as I can learn) concerning our reſpect to the recompence of reward, is, that he who doth well only in ſight of it, is in a weak eſtate, but yet indowed with an Evangelical Spirit: ffFriendly Debate, p. 27.He leaves out theſe words, is in a weak eſtate; and then ſnarles and quarrels with me on this faſhion: Unleſs he eye the glory of God, he hath no Evangelical Spirit. On this theme he makes a long declamation, though a very ſorry one, and to no purpoſe; ggP. 32, &c.for it is not poſſible to ſeparate theſe two, the one from the other.

N. C.

I do not underſtand you.

C.

Can a man give greater glory and honour to God than by quitting his p. 360preſent pleaſures and other enjoyments, meerly in hope of good things to come which he doth not ſee, but only takes Gods word for? Doth he not magnifie the Goodneſs, the Truth, the Faithfulneſs, the Power of God, and declare the high thoughts he hath of all theſe glorious Attributes, who relyes purely on them for all his happineſs? There is nothing plainer at firſt ſight; upon which account I cannot retract what I have ſaid, but he ought rather according to his promiſe, to write no more on this faſhion. Let him reform his Sermons (a leaf or two of which he ſeems here to have tranſcribed) and talk more underſtandingly and diſcreetly of glorifying God. And above all things let him take care to expound the Scripture better, which he hath perverted moſt groſsly twice or thrice in this very Argument. Who, before him, expounded thoſe words Hoſea 10.1. [Iſrael is an empty Vine, he bringeth forth fruit to himſelf] of their having reſpect only to their own good in their Actions, and not to Gods glory? It is a place as many wayes rendred and expounded as any I can now call to mind: H. Zanchy hath been at the pains to enumerate two interpretations p. 361of Rabbi Salomon, another of Dr. Kimchi, a fourth of Aben-Ezra's (which is S^t. Hieromes alſo) in ſhort there are no leſs then 7. or 8. wayes of explicating theſe words, and yet none of them ſo much as lean towards the ſenſe which this great Cenſurer obtrudes upon us. Occolampadius and others obſerve that they may be read with an interrogation, doth he bring forth fruit to himſelf? that is, doth he think the Enemy will leave him any thing, who hath already ſtript him ſo bare? No, he will take all away. Others render the words, He ſhall lay up the fruit, that is, of his ſins. A third expoſition is, he ſhall find no fruit, the reaſon is becauſe of his ingratitude. The ſimpleſt ſenſe of all Mercer thinks is this, as he is an empty vine, ſo he ſhall bring forth fruit like himſelf. i. e. none at all. As much as to ſay, he is ſpoiled by the Enemy, and deprived by God of the power of increaſing. This Zanchy alſo approves of as the beſt. But what needs ſo many words? He commends M^r. Calvin ſometimes as one of the beſt interpreters in the world: hhpag. 121. 269.To M^r. Calvin therefore he ſhall go; who ſpeaks not a ſyllable to this purpoſe; But after he …ath mention'd ſeveral other ſenſes approves p. 362of this above all. Iſrael is like a Vine, which having been ſpoiled one year, brings forth fruit again the next. The Lord vouchſafed his bleſſing to him, after he had let his vintage be deſtroyed. But what was the iſſue? The next words tell you; though God had let him bring forth fruit to himſelf not his Enemies, he grew worſe rather than better thereby, and according to the multitude of his fruit, he multiplyed his Altars. He that hath not theſe Books may look into the Dutch Annotations, who recite ſeveral expoſitions, but none of his. As for the Aſſemblies Annot: thoſe printed 1645. ſpeake not a word of it. But thoſe of the 3^rd. Edit: 1657. expound it firſt as M^r. Calvin doth, he brings forth fruit to himſelf, not to others; but conſumes it on his own luſts and Idolatries; and then mentions ſome of thoſe named before. There is but one that I have met withal who expounds the words of ſerving himſelf and he means thereby, pleaſing himſelf in his ſins.

N. C.

What need you make all this ſtirre about this place.

C.

It is not a deſight in multiplying words that makes me uſe ſo many in ſuch an argument, but only a deſire to p. 363convince you beyond contradiction, that he is a vain talker about the Scripture: one that muſes and dreames over them, as I told you before, rather than meditates in them. And yet, like one that having a noiſom breath cenſures the ill lungs of his neighbours, he hath the impudence to charge me moſt unjuſtly with this, that my Book is full of Scripture miſinterpreted p. 142. Nay to wiſh, I do not ſpoil all the holy Scripture I meddle withal. p. 122. When he cannot name one I have ſpoiled or misinterpreted, and he himſelf I clearly diſcern, is no competent judg, whether a man alledg the Scripture a right or not.

N. C.

I am ſure I am not; being unacquainted with Expoſitors.

C.

And ſo are many of thoſe who undertake to teach others: of whom the Quakers learnt to apply the Scripture according to the ſound of the words, not the ſenſe. For they cite theſe words of another prophet ii5. Jerem. laſt.as learnedly [the Preiſts beare rule by their meanes] to prove that our Miniſters good livings keep up their Authority, as this man doth the words now named, to prove that a good man muſt eye the glory of p. 364God and not only himſelf in what he doth; or the words of S^t. Paul [he hath choſen the weak things of this world to confound the mighty &c.] to prove that God recovers men out of defections and deſpair by miſtakes or miſapplications of holy Scripture. p. 75.

N. C.

I think he hath ſhown how much you were miſtaken (to ſay no worſe) in that buſineſs.

C.

He pulls one half of my words from the other, and then makes a long babble upon them, conſiſting very much of impertinent compariſons inſtead of clear proofs and reaſons. I ſaid that by fanciful applications of ſome Scripture, or other not belonging to their condition, well meaning people are caſt down and again raiſed up &c. This he cannot deny: and yet takes notice only of the latter, their recovery by miſtaking Gods word, and lets the former paſs, their falling into malancholy by the ſame me…s. The reaſon is, becauſe he had no Queſtions to ask about that, nor any ſtories out of which to draw this concluſion, that God brings men into deſpaire, as he ſaith, he brings them out by miſtaking his meaning in his word. But abate him that, and yet, p. 365he ſhall not hit the mark; for the buſineſs is not, as he ſtates it whether a mans melancholy never had any conſiderable ground, becauſe he was cured by miſtake or miſapplication of Scripture; kkpag. 73.but whether men do not both fall into melancholy and again are recovered out of it, merely by ſuch mistakes or miſapplicatins. I ſay they do; and why he doth not honeſtly conſeſs it too, I cannot tell; unleſs it be that he may ſtill keep ſuch miſerable Patients under his cure, which he is better able to perform by miſapplying the holy Scripture then other ways. And that he may maintain this trade of comforting poor Souls with mere words without their ſenſe, mark what a rabble of ſtories and examples he hath muſtered up, which hang together with his concluſion like Harp and Harrow. Theſe are ſome of his arguments. A man was cured of a dangerous impoſthume by a ſtab which was intended to take away his life; therefore God cures men of their deſpair by miſapplications of holy Scripture. S^t. Auſtin's life was ſaved by miſſing his way, when one lay in wait to kill him, therefore God delivers men from their trouble of mind, by p. 366miſſing the ſenſe of his word. The Prophet Elijah was fed by Ravens, and Jericho's Walls fell down by Rams-horns; therefore God conveys peace into mens hearts by their fanciful interpretations and miſtakings of what he ſaith. Theſe are ſome of his reaſonings, which never a Rational Divine of them all can equal.

N. C.

He ſaith God can do all this, and is able to cauſe the light of comfort to ſhine through the chinks of mens miſtakes. p. 75.

C.

He means that he doth do it, or elſe it is nothing to the buſineſs. And if there were not ſome chink or flaw in his brain he would have ſeen that he ought to ſay, he comforts them not only through the chinks of their miſtakes, but by their mistakes. And he would have diſcerned alſo that theſe goodly Arguments which prove he can do this, prove that he can comfort them by a leafe or Sentence of any other Book, let it be what it will. And the more unlikely and improportionable mmThey are his words. pag. 75.the means are whereby the cure is effected (ſuppoſe a bit of Tom Thumb or the like) the more it will redound to his glory, and get him greater honour, then if it p. 367llp. 73.74.were by a piece of Scripture and that well underſtood.

N. C.

Phy for ſhame!

C.

This is the force of his reaſoning, as appeares further by the illuſtration which follows. A phyſitian is more to be admired, he tells you, who deceives his melancholy into a cure, than he that ſets him right by a long courſe of phyſick. The conſequence of which is clearly this, that the more abſurd the conceit is by which he cures him the more he is to be admired: and ſo the further a thing is from the mind of God, the more glory it will be to him, if a man receive comfort by it. This according to one of his reſemblances, is like Elijahs being fed by a Raven, which nnIb. pag. 74.was more like to beguile him, than feed him, &c. to bring him carrion rather than wholeſome food.

N. C.

I do not believe that God doth all that he can do.

C.

Now you have overthrown all he hath ſaid in a word. And happy would it be for him, and better much for you; if you could but teach him this one little peice of Logick. For this mad way of talking and preaching hath debauched Religion; and taught any man to ſet up p. 368for an inſtructor of others, who underſtood not common conſequence. It is but putting on a bold face, and quoting a great many Scriptures, and ſcraping up ſome ſtories, and making a ſhow with ſimilitudes and examples, and then pittying all others and ſighing over them as ſtrangers to the Mind and Methods of God; and without any more ado they ſhall be taken for great men by the Ignorant. They can commence Maſter of the higheſt knowledg in an inſtant: And without any ſtudy underſtand the mind of the Spirit. Or if they do not underſtand it, the difference is not ſo great but it may do as well. For Scripture misinterpreted can bring comfort from God and therefore why not other things. Say what you will, this confident folly ſhall be maintained. Such men as this are reſolved, it is plain, not only to countenance and defend the never to be too much lamented misinterpretation of Gods holy word, but to incourage and promote it; by intereſſing God in it, nay, making it for his greater glory to convey peace into mens ſouls by this means.

N. C.

God forbid any man ſhould be ſo reſolved.

p. 369C.

Rather than acknowledge their errors, I mean, or be thought to have leſs of the Spirit of God, than indeed they have; they will juſtifie all their fancies, and abuſes of Gods Word: and by new faults maintain the old. And whatſoever this man pretends, I doubt not, but the ground of that wrath which he, and others like to him, have conceived againſt me, is only this; that they find their follies laid open and expoſed to the view of the World. They are not ſo much concerned for the credit of Religion, as appears by his being contented the Scripture ſhould be ſtill miſinterpreted, as for their own credit, which they think is impaired. Rather than ſuffer this, what is there they will not endure? To oppoſe the Army, were it on foot again, would be without any controle (for any thing I can ſee) to reſiſt the Holy Ghoſt, for that mighty things have been done by them cannot be denied.ooContinuation of Friend…, Debate, …. 156.

N. C.

Meddle not with theſe things.

C.

No, we muſt let it paſs for the Word of God, if a Reformer tell us that be ſtaggers not at the promiſe through unbelief, ppIb. p. 162.though it will puzzle you I believe, p. 370to find a promiſe to encourage you to reform the Church after your patterns againſt the will of your Prince.

N. C.

I know none.

C.

I'le try to help you out, from the writings of thoſe Miniſters who urged the taking of the Covenant by this Argument, We have ſeen the day of the Lords power in this Land, wherein his people have moſt willingly offered themſelves in multitudes like the dew of the Morning. qqAnſwer to the reply of the Miniſters of Aberde. p. 15.If the people be but willing to aſſiſt you, preſently you will find promiſes to encourage you in your deſigns—

N. C.

I ſhall leave you, if you proceed at this rate.

C.

Stay a little. You cannot be content I am ſure that this man ſhould curtail the Scripture, as he doth my words, to make it ſeem on his ſide.

N. C.

He is not guilty of that, I hope.

C.

Read the 3. Coloſſ. 23, 24. to which he refers you rrP. 33.for a proof of what he ſaith about looking to our reward, though little to his purpoſe. VVhatſoever you do, do it heartily as unto the Lord; knowing that of the Lord ye ſhall receive the reward of the inheritance. For ye ſerve the Lord Christ. So he quotes p. 371the place; but leaves out theſe material words for the finding the ſenſe, [and not unto men] and then expounds it thus; That we muſt have an eye to the glory of God and Chriſt in what we do, or elſe we ſhall not receive the reward, whereas the Apoſtle doth not oppoſe ſerving the Lord to ſerving themſelves, but to ſerving men (as appears by the words which he laid aſide, as lying croſs in his way) and would have them pleaſe their Maſters though Heathens, thinking all the while they were doing a part of Chriſts work; who would certainly pay them their wages, becauſe they were his Servants. By this you ſee what men will do to ſerve their own cauſe, and how eaſie a matter it is preſently to ſtuff up a Book and to croud into it a number of good words and yet not write good ſenſe. Rather than fail, there is a way to ſtrain the holy Scriptures, and ſet them upon the rack, that they may reach their purpoſe; as he doth thoſe words of the Apoſtle [ſuppoſing gain is Godlineſs ſſ1 Tim. 6.5. pag. 36.1 Tim 6:5] to reprove thoſe who Act only out of a light of the recompence of reward. As if the Apoſtle ſpoke there of gaining Heaven, and theſe were the men from whom we muſt withdraw our ſelves —

p. 372N. C.

No more, good Sir; theſe are the perverſe diſputings, I doubt, of men of corrupt minds, which the Apoſtle there ſpeaks of.

C.

Very near of kin to them. But if I ſhould proceed to ſhow you how he hath perverted the ſenſe of a great number of other Scriptures which he hath meddled withal, that alone would hold us half as long as we have been already. They are not words I caſt out at random, but I ſpeak deliberately, and as I think. Nor have I time to reckon up all the reſt of the places in my Book, where he hath left out words, or abuſed the ſenſe: I will name only a few more, when I mention Prayer, communion with God, and Meditation, as inſtances of ſuch duties as may be performed between God and our ſelves, and not ſuch as are expreſſed in life and manners, p. 40. He tells you that I take theſe to be the things which are ſo airy and refined that no body can feel them, no, not with his moſt ſerious thoughts. ttP. 56. of his Book.And becauſe I affirmed that commonly well meaning people fancy themſelves deſerted by God, when they are not (which is ſober and good ſenſe, and the ſum of what I ſaid) he is in a rage, and fancies the Devil to p. 373be entred into me, nay, no leſs than ſeven Devils; and cryes out, the Lord rebuke you. uuIb. p. 72For was our Saviour, ſaith he, a melancholy and fanciful perſon, &c. what led him to that wild diſcourſe, I know not, unleſs it were his love to contradict, and his great wrath and paſſion againſt me. Which evil Spirits (to ſpeak in his own language) I hope have but a ſhort time, they rage, and tear, and foam, and (as his words are) ſputter ſo much. For he tells you I carp at God, and caſt ſmiles of ſcorn and deriſion upon the words of the Holy Ghoſt, and intimates I am approaching towards the Blaſphemy againſt it; and had almoſt ſaid I am in the ſame condition with Simon Magus. xxAll this ſtuff you may find. p. 76, 77.And what is all this Holy bluſter about? Nothing but this, what I ſpoke of many perſons now, he would have you think was meant of all that ever were, even of our Saviour himſelf: and my expoſing their fond talk of ſhinings in and Sealings to that ſhame which it deſerves, he makes account is an abuſe of the language of the Holy Ghoſt. And yet they themſelves cannot but ſmile at the Pope when he pretends to the Holy Ghost, and at his Priests who tell us of Miracles and apparitions of Chriſt; and p. 374the Anabaptiſts in the beginning of the Reformation, who talk of Illuminations, and extaſies; and the wild people of the late times, when they brag'd of their anointings, and teachings, and that they were the people of the Lord: All which are Scripture phraſes, but by them moſt ridiculouſly uſed and applyed to themſelves, as you cannot but acknowledge, what is the matter then, that you are ſo angry with me for a ſmile or two? would you only have the Monopoly of theſe phraſes? will you have no body to trade in them (as VV. B. ſpeaks) but only your ſelves? And muſt we think you are full of the Spirit when you are only full of Scripture words, Shinings and Sealings, and ſuch like? Is it not poſſible to charge you with folly, but we muſt be thought to wound the bleſſed Creator too, and to be offended at the Holy Ghoſt? yyPag. 76.Away with theſe proud conceits. Do not imagine God and your ſelves to be ſo united, nor call all your own fancies, by the name of Divine Myſteries.

N. C.

Take heed how you ſpeak againſt Goſpel-Myſteries.

C.

They are your Myſteries, not the Goſpel's, which you make ſuch a ſtir p. 375about, and call him profane who hath not the ſame reverence for them, which you have your ſelves. And thus the Egyptians, I remember, when they worſhipt Apes, Storks and Dogs, ſaid, thoſe are very great Myſteries; be not too bold in talking againſt them. As if, ſaid Lucian, there were any need of a Myſtery, or it were ſuch a ſecret piece of wiſdom, by which we know Gods to be Gods, and Dogs to be Dogs.zzDialogue call… Council of the God….

N. C.

I confeſs the Goſpel-Myſteries are plain now, being revealed by the Spirit in the Apoſtles, as we have already diſcourſed.

C.

It is very true. Hold to thoſe and we ſhall have no difference about ſuch matters. But let this man rave as long as he pleaſes, and lift up his Noſe to the Skies, if he can; he ſhall never perſwade me that you are more extraordinarily inlightned; and underſtand more of them than other men; unleſs I hear you talk more wiſely. Nor ſhall I think that I offend when I ſay many of you take their ſudden fancies for gleames of glory, and irradiations of the Holy Ghoſt. Let him babble alſo till his tongue be weary about experiences, I ſhall only believe that he was in love with wrangling and hearing p. 376himſelf talk perpetually. For I ſtated that Doctrine plainly enough, but he takes no notice of it: and would have thoſe, who will read his Book and never look into mine, believe upon his word that I am an Enemy to Chriſtian experience, aaPag. 158.and perſwade them to disbelieve it; bbPag. 160.and in ſhort, am an Anti-experimentiſt.

N. C.

You have made me out of love with hard words.

C.

It's his own (p. 158.) a compound of Greek and Latin, and therefore worſe than Heterodoximony.

N. C.

What a word is that?

C.

O it makes a dreadful noiſe, and is very effectual to perſwade the People that they hear a Pope not ſqueak, but roar in our Belly. So he would have you think, that ſome Preachers make the P…lpits Eccho to Rome ever and anon; and by their Heterodoximony have inflamed the Peoples fears ccR…bailding of London encouraged p. 184.. But (to let that paſs) he might as well have ſaid I jeered at keeping the Lords-day (commonly called the Sabbath) as at laying up and communicating experiences, for they are both put together in my Book p. 167. This, one would think, he was ſenſible of, for mentioning this paſſage out of my Book p. 377afterward ddp. 162. of his Book., and ſpeaking of other partculars, he leaves out this; and then baſely ſlanders me for putting experiences or thoſe that treaſure up and communicate them, among the workers of iniquity. When I only ſaid, that the power of godlineſs, did not conſiſt in ſuch things as theſe. But there is 50… much folly which he powres out on this ſubject, that it would make too great a part of a Book to lay them open. Would you think any man ſhould be ſo ſenſeleſs, as, when I ſmile at a man that brings his own experience to prove the truth of Chriſtianity, to tell me …f the experience the World hath had of the Goſpel being propagated far and near? Is this (to omit what might be otherwiſe replyed) any of your particular experiences? Do you feel that the Jews are a miſerable People at this day, which is another thing he mentions? If we muſt write Books at this rate, it will be endleſs; for a man muſt be forced to write the ſame things over and over again to convince ſuch oppoſers. And therefore fare him well; let him enjoy all his idle conceits about Holy-days, and tell us of their unwillingneſs to keep ſuch days as we do not keep our ſelves eeSt. Swethen, St Georg, &c. p. 151.; that this Saint is better than that; and ſay, p. 378as he doth profanely, that they are diſpoſed to keep a Faſt rather than a Feſtival in remembrance of St. Bartholomew ffThey are his own words. p. 153.; one of the Holy Apoſtles, to whom ſome part of the World was beholden for preaching the Goſpel: Let him prefer his Major Gen. if he will before him, and make this an Argument againſt obſerving our Holy-days, becauſe they are no better obſerved ggp. 155.; I reſolve not to trouble my ſelf with ſuch matters, nor all the reſt of his impertinencies on this ſubject.

N. C.

I am glad of it with all my heart; I hope we are almoſt at an end.

C.

And I am as glad that he hath beſtowed his ſix week; time (almoſt) in abuſing me and perverting the ſenſe of my Book, if it have kept him from worſe imployment.

N. C,

I know not what you aim at.

C.

The ſame that a Gentleman of a neighbouring Nation did, who was uſed by another Phil. hhPhilarchus who writ againt Balzac.juſt as I have been by this, and his comfort I take to my ſelf. This little miſch of which is done me, may be of ſome uſe … the Commonwealth: and while malice amuſes it ſelf about matters of this concernment, it may not find leiſure to intermeddle in affairs of higher moment. p. 379They that imploy their time in perverting the ſenſe of Books, and falſifying mens Works, are of ſuch a diſpoſition, that it is poſſible (as this man ſpeaks) they might have been buſied in forging of Wills, or cliping of Money. And he that comes only to deſire a Licence or Priviledg for a Book iiAs he did to Seignior Ld. Chaac. of France in a letter, to whom theſe paſſages are., might hauehave ſued for a Pardon or a Reprieve. It is much better that injuſtice ſhould ſport it ſelf in the ſpoiling of a poor Dialogue, than that it ſhould trouble the publick tranquillity; and that it ſhould tranſpoſe words and alter periods, than remove the bounds of lands, or perplex mens eſtates. To ſay the truth, it is the moſt innocent imployment that Vice can have; and I might be thought to have ſerved my Country, if I had done no more than find ſuch idle people ſome work, who might have proved dangerous Citizens, if they had not choſen to be ridiculous Cenſurers.

N. C.

I hope you do not apply all this to him.

C.

I muſt, at leaſt, let him know thus much. That I am perfectly well content if the heat of his brains exhale this way, and his intemperate rage find no other p. 380vent. If he know not what to do with his zeal, let him continue to ſpend it on me, rather than ſuffer it to be more dangerouſly imployed. If this ſcope and liberty which he gives to his folly, will go no further, he may proceed as he hath begun. And let him call in what aſſiſtance he pleaſe to pelt me, and powre whole ſhowers of ſtones upon me, it is like I may be able (as that Gentleman ſaid in his caſe) I may be able to build my ſelf a Monument with thoſe ſtones, which Wrath and Malice hurl at me, without doing me any harm.

N. C.

You will have good luck then, for you may expect other kind of ſtones than you think of, if all be true that he ſaith; Hail-ſtones or Thunder-bolts, for he tells you, he hath but anticipated others that would have come against you in a whirlwind, and all in Thunder-claps (whereas he ſpeakes in a ſtill and gentle voice) which might have broken all your bones kkPreface 31..

C.

Piſh! They will prove but the noiſe of Pot-guns, I warrant you. And I look upon this but as a Vapour, and a piece of that Vanity, I told you he is guilty of; which hath contrived I cannot tell how many puniſhments for me. It is but a ſmall matter that in the beginning of his Preface he ſuppoſes I deſerve to be p. 381cut off llpag. 3…: he can tell you the manner of it. Either by a Leproſy like Gehazi, or by a worſe means; being in as much danger as moſt men he knows to dy like Herod of the lowſy diſeaſe mmThey are his words. pag. 80.. And why ſo, think you?

N. C.

Your pride and inſolence is ſo great as he tells you; as appeares particularly by telling us of W. B. lowſy ſimilitudes; which he cannot divine how it ſhould come into your mind, unleſs your head be already full of lice.

C.

Is not his pride and inſolence greater than that he layes to my charge, who preſumes, you ſee, there can be no good Reaſon for a thing, if he do not know it? Let him know now, once for all, that I did not throw any word careleſly into my Paper (as he doth) but wrote deliberately and gave ſuch Epithetes to things as I judged upon conſideration moſt proper: if he like me the worſe for this, I care not; I like my ſelf the better.

N. C.

Could you have any reaſon for ſo Vile an Epithete.

C.

Suppoſe I had learned it out of your Books and only returned your own words back again to you; where had the fault been? I am ſure I find ſome p. 382of your Spirit in times paſt, called the Orders in the Common-prayer Book, carnal, beggarly, lowſy and Antichriſtian.nnDr. Bancroſt's Sermon at Pauls Croſs. p. 20.

N. C.

But you ſhould not have imitated ſuch beggarly language.

C.

Nor W. B. uſed ſuch beggarly ſimilitudes. For the true Reaſon, ooI told you I had a good one continuation. p. 116I aſſure you, of that Epithete, was this; that he compares an unconverted perſon to a Beggar, who drops lice as the other doth ſins where ever he goes. You will ſay (theſe are his words ppSinfulneſs of ſin &c. p. 27. which hath his name to it. 1667.) a Beggar is full of vermine that drops his vermine, whereſoever he goes. So men not converted, they are dropping their vermine where ever they go. If they come in good company, they are dropping their vermine there; if they come in bad, they are dropping their vermine there. Why? becauſe they are full of vermine, full of ſin. What think you? will he be ſatisfied now?

N. C.

I am even nauſeated with the mention of vermine ſo often.

C.

It would do well, now that I have told him how this Epithete came into my mind, if he would go to W. B. and deſire to know how this ſimilitude came into his. For this ſhould put his divining p. 383faculty, I ſhould think, harder to it than the other: ſince he is more kind, no doubt, to him than he was to me, and will not ſuppoſe his head to be full of theſe creepers. How is it poſſible then that they ſhould come into his mind? eſpecially if you confider, that they are now paſt the Equinoctial of their ſuffering; he having almoſt ſaid, that they are run through all the twelve ſignes of that Zodiack.

N. C.

I did not think you would have mention'd this any more; and now me thinks it comes in by the head and ſhoulders.

C.

There is nothing more appoſite, elſe you ſhould have heard of it no more. For according to that famous Coſmographer Don Quixote qqPart. 2. chap. 29.—

N. C.

That's as bad as Brachygrapher.

C.

No, its grown a common word and as well known as if you ſay a deſcriber of the world.

N. C.

Well; go on.

C.

According to him, I ſay, as ſoon as ever any ſhip hath paſſed the Equinoctial, immediately all the Lice dye, ſo that there is not one to be found about any man there, if you would give it's p. 384weight in gold for it. And therefore he may ſpare that requeſt which Don Quixot made to Sancho whom he beſeeched to grope a little (when he was in doubt where they were as they ſailed in the enchanted Bark) for if he found never a live thing about him, he might be ſure they had cut the line. There needs no more labour but to ſcratch his head for a Reaſon to ſatisfy this inquiſitive Gentleman, how one ſo cleane, ſo free from all vermine, ſhould have ſuch conceits crawling in his head.

N. C.

This jeſting doth not become you.

C.

Had I not better laugh, than be angry at his folly? would you have me go about to confute ſeriouſly all that he talks about lice and the lowſy diſeaſe, and the black and yellow Jaundice, rrpag. 88.with ſuch like ſcabby ſtuff? (do not be angry; that is one of the things he there mentions.)

N. C.

No. But you find fault with his indeavours to be witty.

C.

You have very lucky words, and expreſs my mind very well: Wit is not a thing to be ſtudied or learnt; men loſe it (as is apparent by this man) in ſeeking for it: and while they labour to be p. 385facetious they become ridiculous. Is there any thing more monſtrous than a jeſt half Engliſh and half Latine? This is to play the fool in two languages: and to make a mans ſelf a laughing ſtock to the Wiſe, without being admired by the Vulgar.

N. C.

I confeſs I underſtand not his Latine.

C.

He pleaſes himſelf in ſuch Engliſh jeſts as would never have come into an ingenious mans head; and which a man of ordinary wit would have thrown away, had they offered themſelves.

N. C.

You will be thought intollerably proud for this very cenſure.

C.

It muſt be by thoſe who think it a mighty matter, to hit now and then upon a pleaſant conceit. And if they ſpeak ſome things with a grateful ſharpneſs, find it an hard matter to be humble.

N. C.

I pray Sir, is it not the hardeſt thing in the world?

C.

To thoſe who have but a ſuperficial ſenſe of their Creator. But to others who live in a continual remembrance of him, and are deeply ſenſible that they are but what he made them and helpt them to be, it is the moſt p. 386natural and eaſy thing that belongs to our duty. But what do you tell me of pride when he is guilty of ſuch preſumption as I have now named; and before I dye of the lowſy diſeaſe, threatens me with perpetual barrenneſs (p. 27) the bleſſing of Cham (p. 29. ſſSurely the bleſſing of Cham will be upon you.) wrath to the uttermoſt (p. 54.) and after all this, a portion worſe than Dives had in the place of Torment p. 80. And with ſome kind of guſt he tells me, that God will certainly reward me for what I have done, either in this world or in the next. As if it were ſome pleaſure to think, how I ſhall be treated there, though they cannot ſhow their kindneſs to me here. But with ſuch Bugbeares they have been wont to affright others before me upon ſmall occaſions. When Mr. Coleman I remember did but deſire that as few things might be eſtabliſhed jure Divino, as might well be; preſently he was ratled with a what Sir? Will you not ſpeak for your Maſters right? are you aſhamed to plead his cauſe. Take heed that fearful threatning befal not you 8. Mark. 38. Whoſoever ſhall be aſhamed of me and of my words &c. of him ſhall the Son of man be aſh amed &c. ttBrief view of Mr. Coleman's Model. pag. 5. 1645.And Melancthon hath alſo obſerved, uuƲpon 16 Rom. 18.that p. 387they who defend abſurd things when they want arguments, are apt to betake themſelves to thundering of Anathema's againſt their Adverſaries, to denouncing curſes, to evil ſpeaking or threatning of them. But no body need be troubled at this, for I am of his mind who ſaid, that all the preſages or wiſhes of Enemies are of the ſame power with the imprecations of Poets, and the falſe bruits of Fame, which ſound very dreadfully, but are able to do us no harm.

N. C.

Nor would he do you any harm if he could, but rather ſave you from it.

C.

But can he paſs his word for others too? Time was he ſaith, when if a man had ſpoken Iriſh half ſo diſtinctly, as I ſpeak Fanatick, he had been ſure enough truſſed up for a ſpye. xxpag. 156. firſt of them.Theſe words, me thinks, carry a ſcurvy intimation in them of the danger I ſhould be in if that time return again.

N, C.

Do not ſtrain things beyond their meaning.

C.

No I will as ſoon ſwing by the head in a ſtring, as deal with him after that manner he hath done with me. I have reported his words juſt as they are, p. 388and what you think of them, I will think too.

N. C.

I think they are none of the handſomeſt language, but had no bad intention.

C.

Let it be ſo then. I am reſolved not to wrangle about any thing that may have a fair interpretation: though I muſt tell you, he carps and wrangles with me without any cauſe in the world. Of which vice I muſt give you ſome inſtances according to my promiſe in the beginning: and becauſe it is very late, they ſhall be but two, which ly alſo very near together.

Mention being made in the Friendly Debate of three ſorts of N. C. the laſt of which (as you may ſee p. 206. &c.) are ſaid to be between both, he quarrels becauſe they were not placed in the middle, being a middle ſort of men between the two Extreams, and by the middle we muſt come at the Extreames yySee his Book pag. 218.: And yet this is the very man, who in another caſe gives advice quite contrary to this, and reaſons too why the middle ſhould come laſt. The Building of the City, I mean, he would have begin at both ends, where it ſtai'd, for every body knows (mark his words zzRebuild: of London Diſcourſe. 19. p. 128.) that it is p. 389better to proceed from extreams to the middle, (for virtue is in the middle) to build firſt at both ends or extreams of the City, and ſo to proceed to the middle, from the two poles as it were to the Center.

N. C.

I did not think men could croſs themſelves on this faſhion.

C.

Nothing more eaſy; when they are reſolved to be croſs to others in every thing.

N. C.

It ſeemes there is one rule for building of Cities, and another for building of Books, if you will let me ſo ſpeak.

C.

As you pleaſe. But he croſſes this rule he hath made for me, once more in that Book. For when he had told us of two Proverbs, nothing venture, nothing have, and venture all, and loſe all; both which ſometimes proves true; he then brings us to the middle way, which he ſaith, is beſt; neither venture all, nor venture nothing, but venture ſomething though not all.aaDiſcourſe 40. p. 245.

N. C.

I begin to feare he hath an itch of finding fault where there is none: for how ſhould a man know what the middle between two extreames is, till he firſt know them?

p. 390C.

It's well that I can extort that little confeſſion from you. Look a little further, and tell me what you think of that paſſage p. 220. where upon occaſion of my deſiring thoſe Miniſters who are not againſt the Common-Prayer, that they would inſtruct the People in the Truth, and bring them to a modeſt and peaceable temper, in order to a compliance with us, he tells me in a jeering way, Sir they are your journeymen, and you may command them what you pleaſe, or rather your poor Apprentices, &c. as if I deſired them to do us ſervice (which God knows was not in my thoughts) and not to ſerve the Truth and Peace of the Church of Chriſt. This is mere perverſneſs of ſpirit; and argues he did not read or write with a good mind, but ſtudies more to keep up a party, than to promote true Chriſtian Religion.

N. C.

However he tells you, they can do nothing for the making up the breach. Some have tried to ſatisfy the People about joyning in a Form of Prayer &c. and it will not do. p. 223.

C.

He ſpeaks diffidently and ſaith, Some it may be have tried. But let us take it for a certainty, and ſince you p. 391mention it let me ſay a few things briefly to it. Firſt, he acknowledges then the groſs ignorance and ſtupidity of your People (which I told you of the laſt time) who will ſooner joyn with Quakers as he ſaith more than once bbp. 15. and 227.; than with us of the Church of England. For that is his argument againſt perſwading them to be reconciled to us, that the next news we may hear of them ſhall be, that they have joyned themſelves to the Anabaptiſts, or to the Quakers, &c. But Secondly, it would be duly conſidered and ſadly laid to heart, how they came by theſe prejudices and antipathies againſt ſo ſober a way of worſhipping God as is among us. Let thoſe miſ-zealous men ſaith Bp. Hall ccAnſwer to the Vindication of Smectym. Paragr. 13, who have infuſed theſe diſtaſtes into well meaning Soules; See how they will anſwer it at the great day to the Judg of quick and dead. Surely if the caſe were mine, I ſhould fear it would fall heavy upon my Soul. Thirdly, let them all come back themſelves to our Congregations, though they cannot bring the people with them. They will thereby do what in them lies to take away the ſcandal they have given; and they will alſo leave thoſe people, who when the humour takes them may leave them, and p. 392run to the wild ſects where ſtill they may enjoy more Liberty. It was a good Memento of Mr. Greenhams to Brown when he firſt ſeparated from our Church, that he hoped he might be better informed and return again to us, but he bid him bethink himſelf what would become of thoſe poor Souls whom he had ſeduced, and were carried away, who might run further and further from us, but never be reclaimed. His words proved true, for Brown returned and died a Member of the Church of England, but his Sect remains to the great diſturbance of it to this day. It had been well if all your Miniſters of this generation had thought of this, and ſo not begun to lead away ſo many Souls into a miſchievous Schiſm, who may never be reſtored: but as it is, if they cannot reduce them, let them come back themſelves, and not be worſe than the Father of the Separation. And Fourthly, I have hope hereby that they may do ſome good, whatſoever this man ſaith, upon the better part of your People; if they ſet themſelves to it unanimouſly and with all their heart. For what cannot be done by one man alone (whoſe unſucceſsful labours be untruly talks of) might be done to p. 393great purpoſe if all were of the ſame pious mind, and joyned in the ſame good work by Doctrine and Example: declaring that neither they nor their Predeceſſors ever held there were any ſuch foul corruptions in our Worſhip or Government as ſhould be a juſt ground for Separation. And Laſtly, if there be no hope at all of this; what makes this Gentleman talk of an Accommodation and Union between C. and N, C. and that a purpoſe of it ſeemed to be as it were publiſhing very lately ddPreface. p. 9.? Sure he knows not the meaning of thoſe words, or elſe contradicts himſelf, which it is as eaſie for him to do, as it is to write.

N. C.

That word Schiſm which you mentioned juſt now, is harder to underſtand than Union. For he ſeems to plead the ſame reaſon for our Separation from you, which is alledged for your Separation from Rome.

C.

That's one of his miſerable ſhifts and excuſes which he makes for things that are ſinful, Is he ſo little a Divine as to think we ſeparated from the Church of Rome becauſe they impoſe terms of Communion which are unneceſſary to be impoſed.eep. 134.

N. C.

That might have been left out p. 394I think: for he adds, and which our Conſcience cannot ſubmit unto.

C.

But is he in good earneſt? May we leave a Church without ſin, whenſoever it impoſes any thing that our Conſciences will not let us ſubmit unto?

N. C.

Pray do you determine.

C.

You ſhall determine it your ſelves, for we have not time to diſcuſs this matter thoroughly now. Pray tell me upon what account did you accuſe the Independents of Schiſm heretofore? They would not in Conſcience ſubmit to your Government? and yet Mr. Jenkins calls it, The Schiſm of Independency ff…ind Guide guided. p. 11. and ſo doth Mr. Edwards Antopolog. p. 248.; and it is the third general Reaſon given by the London Miniſters in their Letter to the Aſſembly, againſt Tolleration, That Independency is a Schiſm; which they prove by ſuch Arguments as I cited in our firſt Debate out of your own Authors (which this man wiſely paſſes over) and among the reſt by this; they ſeparate from a true Church, and therefore make a Schiſm. There was one I know who replied upon this, that it is no true Church which uſes compulſion; but he was anſwered immediately, then the Churches of New England are falſe Churches, for they will ſuffer no Sectaries p. 395neither. But we muſt not debate this further unleſs there be another occaſion; and I muſt alſo paſs by ſeveral things I thought to have ſaid about ſcandal, becauſe it is not fit to weary you. It ſhall ſuffice to admoniſh you of that good rule of M^r. Baxter, ☞It is a private uncatholique Principle, that a Miniſter ſhould more feare or avoid the offending and hurting of his own particular flock, then the offending and hurting of the Catholique Church, or of many particular Churches, where the intereſt of Chriſt and the Goſpel is greater &c. ggTrue Catholique Church p. 144.If Philagathus had conſidered this, or what I ſaid the laſt time, he would not have made that lame excuſe for your Miniſters which you meet withal, p. 130. Which ſhows he had a mind to make a Book, rather than an Anſwer. Such another is that which he makes for their meeting in time of Divine Service: hhpag. 15.which he could not but know is a covering a great deale too ſhort for them. Do they therefore meet at that time becauſe the Churches will not hold all our people? open thy mouth man, as at other times, and ſpeake out; Is this the cauſe doſt thou verily think that they hold their Aſſemblies at thoſe hours p. 396when we hold ours? Let him aſſure himſelf, this very thing hath laid ſuch as he is very low in the opinion of ſome who had better thoughts of them before; that they ſtrain themſelves on this faſhion to alledg thoſe for the reaſons of their Brethrens actions, which they know in their conſciences are not the reaſons. It is a great diſcredit to themſelves, and an affront withal to their Neighbours.

N.C.

How ſo?

C.

By imagining them ſo ſilly as to be put off with ſuch flams as theſe. But we may pardon ſuch little things in a man who can preſume many things to be true without any reaſon at all. Nay, he can preſume (contrary to reaſon, and the very ſcope of my diſcourſe as I have ſhown you) that ſome things which I had learnt more than ordinary, contain an enumeration of all the material points our Miniſter hath preached to us, after, it may be, ſix years reſidence with us. iiThey are his own words. p. 138.And that I would turn one of them if need were (p. 147.) and that if our Governours ſhould put forth their hands and touch all we have, we would curſe them as the Devil **You ſee whom he imitates in this wicked preſumption.ſaid Job would curſe God, though not to their faces, yet behind their backs. p. 397p. 28. and that they themſelves would not be ſo rigorous as they were, if they had power again, p. 84.

N. C.

Some of them, he ſaith, would not, &c.

C.

who are they? A very worthy man (as he tells you he is p. 111) the Author of Nehuſhtan will not have it lawful to tollerate the Common-Prayer. His Auditors you need not queſtion are of that mind, and thought thoſe Sermons would do well to be printed to make more Proſelytes. How many they are we know not, but will not they be earneſt think you, had they power, for the aboliſhing of the Liturgy as a Monument of Idolatry? And when indulgence was conſented unto in ſome caſes, was it not conditioned expreſly, that it ſhould not extend to tollerate the uſe of the common-prayer in any place whatſoever kkFour Bills and propoſitions, ordered to be printed, 11 March, 1647. p. 32.? How ſhall we be ſure that ſuch ſtiff men would be more yielding, if they were armed with their former ſtrength? But this man hath ſuch a ſtrong belief (otherwiſe called conceit) that he can preſume any thing; no leſs than this, that he deſerves ſome Countenance from our Governours for writing this goodly Book: llPreface, p. 35.and from his party, no doubt, for preſuming ſo p. 398luſtily for them, that there is no ſuch principle as this which the N. C. hold, that things lawful enough in themſelves, become unlawful when they are once enjoyned in the worſhip of God. mmP. 105.When the contrary is ſo apparent that ſome ſay it is Idolatry to uſe ſuch things.

N. C.

You tell me news.

C.

It is eaſier a great deal to write a Book about this bigger than any I have made, than to ſay all thoſe things which we have now diſcourſed. Did I not tell you the laſt time of one who makes the impoſing of any Form, model, or method of worſhip, though made by a Council of Elect Angels, to be an uſurpation of Divine Authority, and a ſetting up of a mans ſelf for God? nnContinuation of the Friendly Debate, p. 386. &c.How come you to be ſo forgetful?

N. C.

Now I remember it. more words.

C.

Let me tell you, he is not ſingular in this, but it is a common opinion ſpread very much among you, that no man on Earth hath power in matters of Religion ooChriſt on his Throne p. 60.… and therefore any ordinances about ſuch matters are an Evacuation of Chriſt's Death, an apparent Apoſtacy from him, and ſute not with the liberty of the Goſpel, wherewith Chriſt hath made us free. p. 399The moſt moderate of this ſort of men, and many that go under the denomination of Presbyterians, tells us that it is an invaſion of their Chriſtian Liberty, which they ought to maintain: But the more zealous ſay it is an invaſion of Chriſts own royal Prerogative, which is incommunicable to any, to all the powers on Earth, and which they ought not to betray, to preſcribe rules to men which he hath not enjoyned. ppVindic. of Indep. Churches.You may as well bring a clean thing out of an unclean, as make a Spiritual Extraction out of a ſecular root, ſaith one, qqReply of two of the Brethren to A. S.Chriſt hath committed the power of the Keyes to every particular member of the Church and will of every one demand an account, ſaith another. rrMr. Eatons Sermon at Knuttesford.The power of the Repreſentatives ſhall not extend to things Spiritual or Evangelical, ſaid the Agreement of the people. ſſPag. 24.20. Jan. 1649.All which was ſo well known not long ago, that one told them in plain terms, they made the civil Magiſtrate a Kind of Bat i. e. confined him to the twilight of Nature: And that the Child may not adventure to take his leſſon out of any Book, but Natures Primmer. ttApology. for Mr. J. Goodwin. 1653. p. 5.In ſhort, this is an opinion as old as the Second Admonition in Qu. Elizabeth's time, where you find theſe words, though p. 400there were never an ill word or ſentence in all the Form of our Prayers, yet to appoint that Form to be uſed, though the words be good, the uſe is naught. What doth Phil. think now of his preſumptuous undertaking in the behalf of the N. C.? And what will he do for all thoſe who are of this opinion, whom he hath with full mouth proclaimed Rebels uuA rebellious Principle, it is, &c. your mouth waters to be calling N. C. Rebels, Ib.?

N. C.

Let them agree it among themſelves, for I am none of them; and if you will, let them take the reſt which concerns that matter among them, and do what they will with it.

C.

I could make fine ſport, if I ſhould enter further into that wild diſcourſe. For like a diſtracted man he runs from the point in hand, and cryes out, God forbid that any of them ſhould ſay, that things commanded by God ought not to be done, if ſeconded by the command of the Magiſtrate—

N. C.

If you love me do not follow that wild gooſe chaſe, as we call it. I know very well we were ſpeaking of indifferent things, and ſo lawful in themſelves; not of things neceſſary.

C.

I have done, and ſhall only note two or three more of his preſumptions. To lye a ſoak in the blood of Chriſt, he p. 401preſumes, is an alluſion to what is ſaid, of the Adamant Stone ſteeping in the blood of a Goat, p. 46. which conceit, as ill luck would have it, is quite contrary to another preſumption which he relyes much upon, that theſe men ſpeak to Trades-men, to Farmers or Plough-men xxSee pag. 36. and p. 264.(and therefore may be allowed rude expreſſions) who know as much what belongs to Adamants, as you know what belongs to Algebra.

N. C.

Divines do ordinarily make uſe of this, as he tells you.

C.

Do they ſo? Among the country hearers too, the honest Farmers, and Plough-men yyThey are his expreſſions, p. 264.? who are better pleaſed to hear of a meſs or Boul of Pottage, than with a reſemblance from the Sun, Moon and Stars? And yet they have ſeen them oftner a great deal than the Adamant ſtone. Surely they will not thus forſake their plain preaching; and, notwithſtanding this mans preſumption, I do not believe that one Reader of a thouſand, thought of this Adamant. Let's ſee therefore if he can do any better in other things: He makes bold to preſume that becauſe the Spirit ſuggeſted words to the Apostles, therefore it doth ſo to us; and becauſe to them in preaching p. 402therefore to us in Prayer. That is the force of his reaſoning, p. 96. The Apoſtle, ſaith he, acknowledges himſelf beholding to the Holy Ghoſt (1 Cor. 2.13.) for words as well as affections, and that in his ordinary preaching. Now if the Spirit do ſuggeſt words in preaching, why not in Prayer?

N. C.

Now that you ſpeak of Prayer, it will keep you here a little longer. Pray tell me, why did you forget to mention that all this while? Have you no care of your credit and reputation which is loſt by what you have ſaid of it, unleſs you can redeem it? Nay, you have made your name to ſtink, as he tells you, in the Noſtrils of many who before had better thoughts of you.zzPag. 95.

C.

That's the ſmalleſt matter of a thouſand, nor is it any prejudice to me, if they hardly expect, as it there follows, to meet me in Heaven. It is certain they ſhall not, unleſs they get thither themſelves: and how to ſecure that, is a thing ſhould more imploy their thoughts, than to be dreaming what will become of other men. But as to the buſineſs you ſpeak of, I did not forget it: but fully intended to have ſhown all the folly of his diſcourſe about it, as I have done in p. 403the reſt. Particularly in denying that to be a Rule to us which is infallibly dictated by the Holy Ghoſt. aaPag. 92.And in making publique Prayer (which was the thing we debated about) to be for private uſe. But now I am ſenſible it is too late: and we ſhall part better friends if I let it alone; for your prejudices I doubt are ſo great, that they will either make you angry at my plainneſs, or miſ-underſtand that which you are not uſed to think of.

N. C.

I hope otherwayes: and would gladly ſtay ſo long, if you can tell me your mind in ſhort.

C.

Part of it I can. Praying by the Spirit, ſignifies in the holy language, as I take it, the uttering ſuch petitions as were immediately ſuggeſted, both matter and words, by the Holy Ghoſt, according as the neceſſities of the Church required. Such a gift I acknowledged there was in the Apoſtles dayes, but finding no promiſe that it ſhould continue to ours, nor any ſuch qualification required by Sr. Paul in a Chriſtian Biſhop, I made bold to ſay that no man now can pray by the Spirit; meaning as the Apoſtle, did. Nor dare this man ſay the contrary; but pours out a great many words (as they are p. 404wont to do, when fewer would better become them) concerning the Spirits bringing ſome things to our minds; he cannot tell how much, nor how little; bbPag. 93.but for any thing he knows, it may be nothing at all. But if it do, it makes nothing againſt me, who told you in plain words, if he could have raed, or would not have cavilled, that I ſpoke of a Prayer immediately dictated by the Holy-Ghoſt, as ſome were in the Apoſtles dayes. ccSee more in the Friendly Debiae, p. 88.This he ſhould have oppoſed, and ſhown us that there is ſuch a Divine gift, which I deny. And affirm that the gift of Prayer which is now ſo much talkt of, is partly Natural, and partly acquired, by ſtudy, obſervation, and orderly digeſting of things in our minds. So that to the performance of what belongs to it in a compleat manner, there is required, a competent knowledge of the Will of God revealed in the Holy Scriptures, where the matter of our Prayers is already declared to us by Gods Spirit. Next of all, an orderly and diſtinct apprehenſion of thoſe things which we know: then a firm memory to keep them in mind and in that order: A ready invention alſo that we may find out what is moſt proper on all occaſions: together with an eaſie p. 405utterance and fluent expreſſion. All theſe are to be improved by uſe and exerciſe; and when this gift is to be exerciſed in the preſence of others, ſome degree of confidence and boldneſs is neceſſary, either from Nature, or acquired by frequent practice. And the greater the company is, and the more unacquainted we are with them, that we pray withal; the more of that quality laſt named is neceſſary for him that makes the Prayer. If any of theſe be wanting, either there is no ſuch Gift, or it is very lame and defective, as Mr. Egerton obſerved it was not only in many of the common people (who thought they had it, when they had it not) but in ſome Reverend and worthy Miniſters too, who knowing they had it not, alwayes uſed a ſet Form of words both in the Church and in their private Families; And were men furniſhed with ſo much piety and learning that he could hardly prefer any other men before them. ddPract. of Chriſtianity. p. 690.They that have a ſolid and clear underſtanding, but no more, have no ſuch gift as this. If there be ſuperadded a good Memory, but no quick Invention and Words ready to follow it, they will find themſelves at a loſs or confuſed ſometimes, even when no body hears them. And ſo may p. 406thoſe who have all theſe, if they have not withal got a habit of ſpeaking fitly by frequent exerciſe. Nay, they that have this habit, if they be too baſhful may find their gift fail them before a great Congregation. On the other ſide, we find that they who have little underſtanding and are indued only with a Memory, are wont to pray over the ſame phraſes, and put together the ſeveral heads of a Sermon, ſometime in one order, ſometime in another, and that is all. As for the men of brisker Imagination, better Memories and whoſe tongues are well hung, though of a ſhallow Judgment; they will make a fairer ſhew and pleaſe themſelves and others with variety of expreſſions and conceits, when the matter is very mean, and many times but their private opinions turn'd into Petitions. But as for them who beſide their weak Memories and want of underſtanding, are of a ſlow invention or expreſſion, and have only boldneſs and confidence equal to other mens knowledg and judgment, they will either hum and haw, or uſe endleſs tautologies, or ſpeak non-ſenſe, or piece it out with certain words which ſhall make a part in the beginning, end and middle of every Sentence. Whereby p. 407by it is apparent that very excellent men may wholy want this Gift, and others of little worth may have much of it, ſuch as it is. Nay, that men of great holineſs may be without it and bad men have it to admiration. For if they have furniſhed themſelves with notions, and laid them togetherin a method, and can hold them faſt ſo as they are diſpoſed in their Memories, and readily run to them, ſuddenly produce them, fit expreſſions to them, and be daunted with nothing; they may raviſh the people and themſelves too, though they have little or no ſenſe of God and goodneſs. He alſo that is but dull and ſlow, may be more ready and brisk when his fancy is heated, and find things coming faſter before him and preſenting themſelves in that order wherein they lay in his mind; ſo that one part of his Prayer ſhall be more taking than the other. But all this is nothing of the Spirit of Prayer, which conſiſts in ſuch things as I told you at the firſt, and muſt not now repeat, nor is it praying by the Spirit neither as any man may ſee that hath not a mind to deceive himſelf or others. It is not denyed but that when a good man ſeriouſly ſets himſelf to meditate, the Holy Spirit of God may, and I believe p. 408doth oftentimes, ſet things in better order before his mind, than he could caſt them into himſelf, and brings withal ſome things to his mind which he had forgot, and not only excites thoſe paſſions and affections in him which are ſutable to what he intends to ask of God or thank him for, but raiſes him extraordinarily above himſelf; and yet all this will not amount to a praying by the Spirit, but only by it's aſſiſtance. Whereby a man who hath a gift of extemporate ſpeech, ſometimes excels all that ever he delivered before, and yet no man will ſay he ſpoke by the Spirit. I muſt add alſo that notwithſtanding this aſſiſtance of the Divine Spirit, it is moſt certainly true that many have ſpoken to the aſtoniſhment of their hearers (as I can prove from certain ſtories which you perhaps are not acquainted with) who were not moved by the Holy Ghoſt at all; and other Devout men who have the Spirit of God as much as any, after all their premeditation, and digeſting things in their mind, have not been able to make ſuch prayers, nor found any ſuch aſſiſtance (as this man would have us depend upon) to bring that matter on a ſudden to their mind which they had forgot or not thought upon. I have endeavoured p. 409to explain my mind as briefly and perſpicuouſly as I could about this buſineſs: in which notwithſtanding, I know, a man of ill will may find ſome word or other to ſnarl and cavil at. But if this man think good to continue ſtill in that humour. I ſhall throw one bone in his way for him to gnaw a little upon, which may perhaps ſomething a bate the edge of his fury. It is the words of a great man diſſatisfied with many things in our Church, who writing upon occaſion concerning this matter, confeſſes a great part of the moſt diſtaſtful things that I have ſaid, and upon his own experience. Now what Worſhip, ſaith he, or prayers do you uſe? I am aſhamed to name the boldneſs and folly of ſome who ſcarce able to utter three words orderly, will yet take upon them to babble out a tedious and ſtuttering prayer, where in every tenth word ſhall be the repeating of O heavenly Father, O merciful Father, O deare Father, O good God, O merciful God, &c. and alſo ſo fooliſhly packed together that their praying ſeems rather to be the prating of an infant, that would tell ſome great tale but cannot hit it. Thus far the Reformer, and yet he ſaith not all as my Author eeDr. Bancrofts Sermon at the Croſs. 1588. p. 23addes, for ſometimes p. 410they will ſo wander either by error or malice in framing their prayers anſwerable to their affections (which are oftimes malitiouſly bent againſt any thing or matter where with they are diſpleaſed) that no true Chriſtian if he had time to conſider of their meaning ought in charity, when they had done, to ſay, Amen. All this I will undertake to make good when it ſhall be required by ſuch inſtances as are undeniable.

N. C.

I have enough: But I wiſh you be not like the Fox, that perſwaded others to cut off their tail, becauſe he had none of his own.

C.

I remember his words very well. p. 99. But he had better have been more modeſt; and not meddled with that ſtory; becauſe there is another hard by it in the ſame Author which will give him a flap in the mouth, worſe than one with a Fox tail. It is this.

N. C.

I thought we had been in more haſt to be gone, than to ſtay to hear tales.

C.

It is but a ſhort one; and I will leave you to make the Moral. A Fox went to a players houſe and turning over all his implements, when at the laſt p. 411he found a Vizor, which made a very fair and goodly appearance without but was hollow within, he cryed out. What an Head is here! the miſchief is it hath no Brains. ffforeign.But to be ſerious. Muſt all be ſuppoſed to want this gift, who tell you it is not ſo Divine as he imagines? For my part, I pretend to no thing more than what I have told you, but only this; that I think it is an Art that may be very eaſily taught thoſe who are of an ordinary capacity, and which many people learn by imitation. It is plain the Boy was taught (after a faſhion) in a ſmall time, who was lately hanged for Murder; and it was no ſuch wonder when we conſider, that there is a certain forme and rode both of matter and words where many men are wont to run; only they chang their place, and put them in other rank and order. And as this is very eaſy for ſome men to attain, ſo it is very delightfull when they have it, which makes them ſo fond of it and ſo much to admire it. For their Spirits being heated and their fancy warmed, many things ſtart up on a ſudden which they thought not of before, and theſe ſurpriſe them with their Novelty, and withal are apt to perſwade p. 412leſs cautious ſoules that now they are full of the Spirit of God.

N. C.

I wonder to heare you talk of eaſineſs. You mean ſure of praying by a Book.

C.

No indeed, I think it far more difficult to pray by a Book than otherwayes, if a man be able to do both. For beſide the delight which it gives the natural man to have new conceits ſpringing up continually in his mind, and the joy he is apt to conceive from an opinion that then he is extraordinarily inſpired from above; it is no ſmall matter in his eſteem to have the whole publike Service of God rely upon his invention, and hang upon his lips. This makes him to be a little Pope, of another kind: upon whoſe mouth alone the Divine worſhip in the Church as much depends among you, as the Divine faith doth on the Pope's mouth among the Papiſt. There is this difference only (beſides the number which depend on each) that he takes a long time and much advice about his reſolutions of faith, and your worſhip oftentimes is but a ſudden effuſion.

N. C.

I think I had beſt arreſt you here, for I doubt you begin to take a p. 413delight too in hearing your ſelf talk—

C.

Doubt and hope and fear, all as you pleaſe your ſelf; it ſhall pleaſe me well enough. Who am reſolved to be unconcerned, by the help of God, in what you ſay, unleſs you talk more ſoberly than this man hath done, and appeare to be more in love with truth than any worldly intereſt. Which that we may all be let us both pray to that eternal ſpirit (as I find one in the late times concludes his Book. ggMr. J. Goodwin's Queries queſtioned by one quarry, &c.) Who first moved upon the face of the waters and out of a Chaos of confuſion brought forth this beautiful frame of things, and in the ſhape of a meek and peaceable dove deſcended and ſat upon our Saviour the head of the ſecond creation, and who is not the Author of confuſion, but of Order; that he would caſt out of this Nation every evil ſpirit, the ſpirit of blindneſs, giddineſs and deluſion, of pride and preſumption, of contradiction and perverſe diſputing; and endue us with the ſpirit of judgment, ſobriety and a ſound mind, of humility, peace and meekneſs; that we may not in ſtead of diſcovering a greater light of truth return into former darkneſs of error, nor be ſpiritual Athenians and Noveliſts in Religion, nor deſerve the p. 414cenſure which the Apoſtle paſſed on the Jews, that we are contrary to all men. And God, I hope, who is the Author of all good thoughts and deſigns will open ſome mens eyes or other, even by this that hath been ſaid: Be it but of one or two, I ſhall not think my labour ill beſtowed. They will ſee I hope in what danger they are of being miſled, when one of their guides, and of no ſmall account in his own opinion if not others, is ſo ignorant, quarrelſome and contentious. They will at leaſt learn to be more wary whom they truſt, and to read both ſides before they judg; and not be moved by the bold declamations of men without reaſon: when they clearly ſee the example of a Miniſter before them, who ſpeaks with the greateſt confidence of things whereof he hath no knowledg.

N. C.

Take heed you hope not too much, and fall not into preſumptions as well as he.

C.

No, I have been caution'd againſt that long ago. I know as Mercury ſayes in Lucian **In his Charon.that the multitude are bewitcht with Ignorance and error, and their eares ſo ſtopt, that they can hardly be boared thorough with an p. 415augre. Uliſſes could not make his followers eares more faſt with wax from hearing the Syrens. You may break your heart with calling before they will hearken to you: for look what virtue the water of Lethe is ſaid to have in the other world, the ſame operation hath Ignorance with them here. Yet there are ſome among them who will ſuffer no wax to be crammed into their eares; that are more attentive to truth, and will ſee plainly how the world goes; and judg accordingly. To them I appeale, hoping they will be convinced that I have ſpoken nothing but the truth; and that others alſo will be admoniſhed by theſe things to abide in the truth and make much of it, and defend it, as becomes honeſt men: though they draw thereby upon themſelves the hatred of others, whoſe Ignorance they reprove.

As for that Gentleman whom I have dealt withal thus long, I leave the ſame Advice with him which Biſhop White hhConcluſion of his Anſw. to the Dialogue between two Divines, A. B. 1637.gave another perſon. That he would not be too well conceited of himſelf, nor affect popular applauſe, and ſo refer the handling of ſuch matters as theſe, to men of better judgment, learning and p. 416modeſty: and not give juſt occaſion to have Solomons Sentence applied to him, though thou ſhouldest bray a Fool in a Mortar among wheat with a Peſtil, yet will not his fooliſhneſs depart from him. Pro. 27.22.

And ſince he hath ſome experience of his own forward humour, and ſees that he is apt to be imprudent and deſperate (as he hath confeſſed p. 2) I would further adviſe him, that when he ſuſpects a furious fit of ſcribling to be coming again upon him, he would deſire his Wife or Servants to lay, pen, ink and paper out of his way; leſt he ſhame himſelf yet more in the face of the World.

The END.

Job 6.24, 25.

Teach me and I will hold my tongue: and cauſe me to underſtand wherein I hauehave erred.

How forcible are right words! But what doth your arguing reprove?

End of the text · Simon Patrick, Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3 (1670)