Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3, Discourse (3 of 5)

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 3 · Discourse (3 of 5)

p. 169N. C.

Take heed, Good Sir, you are too bold with the Scripture, The laſt time you walkt on the Battlements of Blaſphemy ssPag. 16., when you approved of that ſaying, A man may talk nothing but Scripture, and yet ſpeak never a wiſe word.

C.

That's another of theſe mens popular Arts, to cry Blaſphemy, Blaſphemy: For then the People think they ſmell the Apocalyptick Beaſt. They can underſtand alſo what the Battlements of Blaſphemy are, though I cannot. Some frightful thing I warrant you; which makes their hair ſtand an end, or their heads turn round; if they did not ſo before. Thus they dealt with Biſhop Hall, who having ſaid in his Humble p. 170Remonſtrance, that Epiſcopacy had continued in this Iſland ever ſince the firſt Plantation of the Goſpel, thought good to add theſe words, ttP. 21. Of the Humb. Remonſtr.Certainly, except all Hiſtories, all Authors fail us, nothing can be more certain than this Truth. Here S…ect. cries out very rudely. Os Durum! Nothing more certain? What? Is it not more certain that there is a God? Is it not more certain that Chriſt is God-Man? Is it not more certain that Chriſt is the only Saviour of the World? Nothing more certain? Muſt this be an Article of our Creed? &c. And ſo they run on; accuſing theſe words as bordering upon Blaſphemy; which are no more (as he told them in his Anſwer) than what every body ſay in their hourly diſcourſe, when they would confidently affirm any Truth. Nay, ſo careleſsly do they throw out this word againſt thoſe who oppoſe their conceits, that we are told by one uuAnatome of Dr. Gauden, 1660., to charge the Covenant as contradictory to former Oaths, and as tending to apparent Perjury, is ſuch a manifeſt Blaſphemy againſt ſo ſacred as Oath, as cannot but be abhorr'd by all ſober Chriſtians. Theſe Patterns your Phil. exactly follows; aggravating every thing though never ſo harmleſs, p. 171with the like heap of Queſtions, and the charge of Blaſphemy. He is as like them as if he had been ſpit out of their mouths, as we commonly ſpeak, uſing the ſame witleſs and malicious intimations: (as the Biſhops words are) only he ſeems to have a more viperous inclination, and every where goes about ſeeking out hairs upon Egg-ſhells.

N.C.

You muſt not think to paſs this over ſo ſmoothly.

C.

Why? St. Hierom ſpeaks bolder words, and I never yet heard that he was a blaſphemer. By a perverſe Interpretation, ſaith he, the Scripture becomes of the Goſpel of Chriſt, the Goſpel of Man, or which is worſe, the Goſpel of the Devil xxUpon the firſt to the Galatians.. For which he gives this reaſon; the Goſpel conſiſts not in the words of the Scriptures, but in the ſenſe; not in the ſurface, but in the marrow; not in the leaves of words and phraſes, but in the root of reaſon.

N.C.

But he that talks nothing but Scripture, gives no ſenſe, but meerly recites the bare Text.

C.

I remember his words, and they are wondrous wiſe. What doth he recite the Text for? Is it not to ſome purpoſe or other?

p. 172N. C.

Yes ſure.

C.

Then he gives the words of Scripture a ſenſe by applying them to his purpoſe. Which yet may be ſo wide not only from the meaning of the Scripture, but from all reaſon, that it may be very idle ſtuffe.

N. C.

But ſtill there is good ſenſe in Scripture words.

C.

He hath made them his words; having ſeparated them from their ſenſe. And it is an eaſie matter to ſhew you a Diſcourſe all in Scripture words and phraſes, which you your ſelf ſhall call nonſenſe. Such there were in the Primitive Times, as we may gather from Irenaeus; who tells us of ſome, that rather than their own Dreams ſhall want authority, would cite the Holy Scripture to give them countenance: though they were no better imployed all the time, than thoſe that wreath a Rope of Sand yyforeign.. For they diſſolved the parts and members of Truth, by tranſpoſing the words from their proper places, and putting them out of their natural order and connexion. They cheated the people with ſcraps of Scripture ſet together after their own fanſie: and called their Imaginations the Word of God, becauſe p. 173they ſpoke the ſyllables and phraſes of it. Which was juſt, ſaith he, as if an excellent workman ſhould make a Picture of a Prince, conſiſting of many precious Stones ſo artificially put together, that they exactly repreſented his perſon. And when he had done, foreign, &c. L. 1. p. 32.another ſhould come and tranſpoſe theſe Stones, and ſet them in another order; till he had made the Figure of a Dog, or a Fox, and then ſhould confidently affirm, that this is the very Picture of the King which the excellent Artiſt made. How would you confute ſuch a man? He ſhews you all the materials; the very ſame Stones which the workman uſed. There is not one of his own putting in, he hath not made the leaſt addition out of his own brains; and therefore it muſt needs be the Kings Picture. For any thing I can ſee, according to this Gentlemans Diſcourſe, the ſimple people muſt believe him, and, as Irenaeus ſpeaks in the ſame place, reverence this Filthy Fox, which he hath made by miſplacing the very ſame Stones, as if it were the true Image of their Prince. This is a lively reſemblance of the practice of thoſe men who (as he goes on) tear the Word of God p. 174in pieces, and plucking ſome from this Book zzforeign., ſome from that, accommodate it to their Tales and old Wives Fables, ſaying, This is the Word of God. There cannot be a more exact deſcription of the Age wherein we live, in which (as Biſhop Hall told Robinſon) you joyn Scriptures, juſt as you ſeparated your ſelves. And when you have packed together a great number of them according to your fanſie and humor, then you think you have ſpoken the Word of God, though ſometime never a word of ſenſe. And now I call to mind the Author of that ſaying which he carps at, only he ſaith ſcarce, and I ſaid never a wiſe word: and that is Dr. Jackson in his Book of the Original of Ʋnbelief aaCh. 47. p. 425., where be hath a large Diſcourſe to ſhew how both the Jew, the Romaniſt, and the Separatiſt are wont to dream upon the Holy Scripture: and there is no Blaſphemy in it that I can find. The ſum of it is this. Muſing and dreaming are very near of kin: the Fanſie in both being apt to weave in every circumſtance or occurrent that hath the leaſt ſemblance or connexion with the principal matter repreſented, or thought upon. For in Dreams, the principal ſenſe, which p. 175ſhould judg, being faſt bound with ſleep, cannot examine the intimations given by the fanſie, and ſo every thing paſſes current which it ſuggeſts. And in Muſing the fanſie is ſo contracted within it ſelf, that it can neither receive Inſtruction from the Underſtanding, nor give it perfect Information from Repreſentations made by the External Senſes, and ſo its follies are not corrected. But les the Original of theſe erroneous imaginations or fallacies be what they will; this is certain, that they inſinuate themſelves after the ſame manner into ſuch as dream, and ſuch as rather muſe than meditate upon the Scripture. Nor is there any other means to prevent their Inſinuations, beſide vigilant and attentive alacrity to ſift and examine every circumſtance, by ſetting our thoughts a work to counterſway our extemporary conceits or apprehenſions, with all other contrary inducements poſſible. He that thinks of nothing, but of confirming his own concluſion or apprehenſion will preſently perſwade himſelf, the Word of God (eſpecially if he hear it alledged or quoted by another) ſpeaks juſt ſo as he thinks, and profers it ſelf as a witneſs to give teſtimony p. 176to the truth of his preſent thoughts. Thus the ſuperſtitious Palmiſter, who foretels the changes to be in your life, by looking into the lines or wrinkles in the palm of your hand, thinks he hears the foundation of his Art in the ſound of Moſes his words, Exod. 13.9. Job 37.7.Exod 13:9Job 37:7And it ſhall be for a ſign upon thy hand, or of Job's, He ſealeth up the hand of every man. The Ignorant Prieſt likewiſe, that ſearched for the word Maſs in the Holy Scriptures, skipt for joy, and cryed I have found it, I have found it, when he read thoſe words of St. Andrew, Joh. 1.41. We have found the Meſſias. And I may add W. B. in his muſings upon an unbelieving heart, when he came to think that it is raſh, ſuddain, and maketh haſt, preſently applied thoſe words of David to this purpoſe, Pſal. 31.22. Pſal. 116.11. Seaſ. Truths, p. 218.Ps 31:22Ps 116:11I ſaid in my haſte, I am cut off from thy ſight; and I ſaid in my haſt, all men are Lyars.

N. C.

And pertinently enough: are they not?

C.

No: For by haſte in the former place, he means his ſudden flight from Saul, which he thought could not be ſo ſwift, as that he ſhould make an eſcape, but his Enemies without a marvellous Providence would cut him off. p. 177And in the other Flight like to this, he had ſome reaſon to lay, that there was no Falth in Man, when his own Son whom he loved, and had ſo much obliged, and his old and truſty Counſellor proved falſe and rebelled againſt him. Some other words of David, when he was in the ſame danger and diſtreſs, this Philag. in his dreaming way of thinking, applies to Gods deſerting mens Souls. And generally when they diſcourſe of Humane Reaſon, they imagine it is that very thing which St. Paul calls the wiſdom of the Fleſh. In ſo much that a noted perſon, gives this reaſon why men ſhould order nothing in the Worſhip of God, becauſe the wiſdom of the Fleſh is at enmity with God: and God hath no reaſon to truſt an Enemy in moulding his Service. All Humane Inventions have a malignity in them, and ſmell of the Fountain from whence they come. He gives this reaſon alſo, why they ſhould invent nothing for Ornament in Gods Service, becauſe God hath choſen the mean and baſe things of this world, 1 Cor. 1 27. This is to run after phantaſms, and to triamph in words, as a great m…n of another Nation ſpeaks. To bu…ld Obſervations upon three or four (ſometimes but one) p. 178little ſyllables, which ſignifie nothing but what cuſtom without any reaſon pleaſes, and are of no more value than uſe gives them. And thus, as Dr. Jackſon there obſerves, Brains apt to buſie themſelves about curious thoughts or ſcrupuloſities, generally frame ſuch compoſitions of ſacred lines, as men in a Frenzy, or other like grievous diſtemper, do out of ſcrabled walls or painted cloth. The one make fooliſh or monſtrous Pictures of true colours, the other draw ſenſeleſs and ridiculous Inferences out of Divine antecedents. And unleſs I had compared the marginal Quotations of ſome Anabaptiſts and Schiſmatical Diſcourſes with the Text, and both with the concluſion intended by their Authors, I ſhould hardly have conceived it poſſible for a man to ſpeak nothing but Goſpel, and yet to ſpeak ſcarce a true or a wiſe word. You may find the ſame Obſervation in Mr. Bernard bbSeparatiſts ſchiſm, … 26., (whom we ſpake of the laſt time) who tells us the Separatiſts that then were, to the ſimple would ſeem to ſpeak nothing but Scripture, when indeed the main point conſidered, they ſpeak nothing leſs.

N. C.

Pray trace this folly no further.

p. 179C.

I ſhould not have troubled my ſelf at all with theſe dreamers, were it not that they are ſo extreamly proud and inſolent.

N.C.

No ſuch matter.

C.

Yes: The moſt common and ordinary people are ſo well train'd up to a conceit of themſelves, that though they will acknowledg one of our Miniſters to have more Learning than themſelves, and to have ſtudied longer, (a great piece of humility!) yet they will ſignifie, by the ſhaking of their heads, how much they pity their ignorance in the mind of God: and peremptorily conclude, that no man that is not of their Sect, knows ſo much of the Will of God as they do. And the ſtronger reaſon (as the fore-named learned Divine obſerves) is brought againſt them, the forwarder they are to appeal from Reaſon to the Scripture, and that is to be interpreted by the Spirit, and that is in themſelves alone: and we are told that Learning will do men no ſervice to underſtand the Divine Myſteries.

N.C.

This is a thing that we are ſorry for, as much as you.

C.

Are you ſo? Why did not your Philag, then ſo much as approve of the p. 180Reprehenſion I gave to theſe mens vain Imaginations? nor ingenuouſly confeſs that the Nation came to be over-run with folly, by ſuch means as I related; but skips over all that without ſo much as touching of it. This is an argument of his diſingenuity, and ſtudy to ſerve a Party; that rather than ſay a word againſt it, he will let the moſt ſottiſh people think themſelves wiſe, nay, incourage them to imagine we blaſpheme, if we tell them, they talk fooliſhly in Scripture phraſe.

N. C.

Why do you call them ſottiſh? it is a harſh word.

C.

Why may not that be allowed to me which was to Melancthon in times paſt? who feared not to ſay, that this is the ſottiſh or ungraceful diſcourſe, which is oppoſed by the Apoſtle to ſpeech ſeaſoned with Salt ccCol. 4.6. See him upon the place.Col 4:6. For by Salt he underſtands a judgment rightly and dextrouſly applying the Word of God. As in our Saviours words, Mark 9. ult. he thinks by Salt, is meant, the Word of God ddVerbum Dei rectè intellectum adhibito judicio, ſeu diſcrimine, &c.rightly underſtood, by uſing judgment and diſcerning, leſt it be transformed into profane imaginations, &c. and the native ſignification of the words be changed. But Phil. ſtands not upon judgment and diſcretion, p. 181the Word of God applied by imagination will do as well. His Salt is all of another ſort, which in truth is but ſottiſh fanſie. Let the world be ſtill abuſed with the pretence of Viſions and Revelations, what cares he? He had rather indeed they would let theſe words alone eePag. 47.: But if they have a liſt to uſe them, he is ready to offer his ſervice for their defence. Though the world be cheated by them never ſo much; he will ſtand by them, and maintain it that they mean honeſtly. For what is there, that he cannot make good by his it may be's, and ſuch like tools? It is poſſible, ſaith he, that W. B. might mean not elevating, but humbling Viſions of God. Say you ſo Sir? Deal ſincerely I beſeech you: Did you read the place? What ſay you? Do not hum and haw, but ſpeak like a man, and ſay, whether did you look or no, into that Book which you undertook to juſtifie, to ſee what kind of Viſions he ſpoke of? If not; with what Conſcience durſt you become his Advocate, and take upon you to maintain you knew not what? Is this your way of writing Books? It gives men occaſion to think you ſcribled this to get a little mony, which you p. 182hoped W. B's. Friends would preſent you withal, not caring whether it were true or falſe. If you did; then I ask you, where were your eyes, that you could not ſee the inſtance whereby he explains himſelf, and that is of St. Peter's beholding Chriſt transfigured, and ſaying, It is good to be here? Was this an humbling Viſion, with which he was ſo tranſported? Or doth he ſpeak only of Gods giving counſel and comfort to his people (as you would have us think) when he expreſsly calls them Times of Raptures and Revelations? All this is within the compaſs of five or ſix lines in W. B's Book; which makes me think it could not have eſcaped him, if he had lookt into it. And therefore I am of the opinion, that according to his wonted boldneſs, he wrote at all adventure; knowing very well the humour of thoſe he had to pleaſe, who would magnifie and cry up any thing for an Anſwer, though never ſo ſilly, nay, never ſo falſe. And though the impudent cheat be now diſcovered, it is poſſible (to ſpeak in his Style) that he hopes to eſcape well enough. For they can pardon ſuch ſins one to another, and ſhall ſtill be reputed Saints, though they lie and deceive, p. 183and diſſemble the Truth. If he had had ſo much honeſty as he makes a ſhow of, he would have lookt upon this as a fit place to caution every one againſt ſuch bold pretences to Viſions and Revelations; which he knows are very dangerous, and not therefore to be winked at, becauſe they are zealous people who talk of them. No body ſeemed to have a greater zeal than Tho. Muncer. He was for reforming even the Reformation. He held Luther himſelf to be too cold: and ſaid his Sermons ſavoured not enough of the Spirit. And by pretending to more frequent and familiar converſation with God, and that he had Divine Revelations, and that God declared by Viſions his Will to the Saints, he got the reputation of a man extraordinarily inſpired: and you know what was the end of it. He had a command from the Heavenly Father (that was his phraſe) to root up, and deſtroy, all the Princes and Magiſtrates of the Earth, becauſe that Chriſt ſaid, the Kings of Nations; to aboliſh alſo the Execution of juſtice, becauſe we read, reſiſt not evil; and to forbid all Oaths, to determine Controverſies, becauſe he ſaid, Swear not at all, &c. He had the company alſo of one p. 184Phifer, who uſed to talk as much of his Dreams, as the other of his Viſions; eſpecially of one, wherein he ſaw an infinite number of Rats and Mice, which he deſtroyed: This he expounded to be a commandment from the Heavenly Father to deſtroy all the Nobility, who, he ſaid, like ſo many Vermine did eat up the poor people. And what by their profeſſed deteſtation of ſin, their great compaſſion to the common ſort, their ſoothing and ſtroking their followers, by appropriating to them all the ſavourable Titles, the good words, and the gracious promiſes in Scripture, and caſting the contrary alway on the heads of thoſe that oppoſed them; they ſtrangely prevailed. The common acclam…t…ons of the people, whereby they followed theſe deceivers, were ſuch as theſe. Verily, theſe are the Men of God. Theſe are the true and ſincere Prophets of the Lord. And if any ſuch Prophet, or Man of God, ſuffered moſt juſtly by order of the Law for Felony, Rebellion, or Murder; the multitude were ſo ſtrangely inchanted, that they lamented the taking away of Gods dear Servants; and were affected, as if Sr. Stephen, or ſome ſuch bleſſed man had been again Martyr'd.

p. 185All this, and a great deal more, if he did not know, he might eaſily have inform'd himſelf, even out of the little Papers printed in the beginning of our Warrs. If he did know it, he thought good to diſſemble it, for fear of offending ſome choice ones, as they call themſelves: though in the mean time the Kings Crown may be in danger, if the fanſie of Viſions and Revelations get into mens heads: Then on a ſuddain, they may think, the ſtill waters are to be turned into blood; and that the very moment is come before they were aware of it, that the quiet people are to be put into a commotion. For W. B. ffTenth Sermon, of Preventing Mercy. 1667. p. 488.in another place tells you, that God prevents mens thoughts in the Revelation of the Truths of the Times. What greater bleſſing than for a man to be well acquainted with the Truth of the Times, in oppoſition to Antichriſt? Now ſays John in the firſt of Revel. I heard a voyce behind me; before I was aware God prevented me, acquainting me with theſe Truths of the Revelations. You know very well (unleſs you have forgot our laſt Diſcourſe) what he means by the Truth of the Times. It is the witneſſing work, and the Witneſſes having p. 186power over the waters to turn them into blood. The time he told you is near; and here he teaches you to look for a ſuddain Revelation, ſuch as the Apoſtle had when he thought not of it, that is, to follow a ſtrong fanſie, when it comes into your head to go about the great work.

N. C.

His meaning may be better than his words.

C.

So may mine, Philag. ſuppoſes. And yet he is very angry with me, merely out of a fear that godlineſs may be thought to be derided, though I did not intend it: Why then had he not the like zeal againſt W. B. if he be thoroughly ſincere? Why did he not at leaſt tell him, that whatſoever he may mean, the people will think he looks for new Revelations. Or, Why did he not bid the people beware of him? No, not a word of this, I warrant you. What? tell ſuch a man as he of his faults? or teach his people ſuch things as they do not like? How ſhall they live then, if they be ſo zealous? Let the world run wild; ſo they be but maintain'd, it is no matter.

N. C.

God doth ſometimes reveal things ſecret to perſons of eminent Holineſs. p. 187Did not Biſhop Ʋſher foretel the very year and day wherein the Iriſh Rebellion begun, no leſs than 30 year before?

C.

Now God help him. He is drawn, I ſee, to the very dregs. Firſt, he dare not confidently averr the truth of his ſtory: but after his uſual manner begins it with, If I miſtake not, Biſhop Ʋſher ggPag. 47., &c.— Now I have ſhewn you, that it is no difficult thing for him to miſtake: And it is very probable, that he is miſtaken here. For Mr. Clark, (a Friend of yours who writ his Life, and knew of theſe matters as much as this Gentleman) could tell us no more but this; That in the year 1624. he ſaid before many witneſſes, that he was perſwaded the greateſt ſtroke to the Reformed Church was yet to come, and that the time of the utter ruine of the Roman Antichriſt ſhould be when he thought himſelf moſt ſecure hhCollect. of the Lives of ten Divines, pag. 226.. But admit there was ſuch a Prediction; What doth it make to his purpoſe? Doth W. B. ſpeak of ſuch V…ſions and Revelations as this in that Diſcourſe? Or muſt his common Hearers be ſuppoſed to be under Viſions and Revelations, and know things to come, becauſe one great man foretold once in his days one p. 188great Revolution? The man himſelf was a little ſenſible of the danger of ſuch Sermons. But mark, how he comes off. What God ſeldom doth (as drying up the Red-Sea) and what he no where promiſes to do, men ſhould ſeldom ſpeak of as a thing they expect. It ſeems the Red-Sea hath been dryed up more than once, and ſo you may ſay, though but ſeldom, that you expect the like again, the drying up (ſuppoſe) of the Sea between Callis and Dover, when you have done your work here, and are to carry the Covenant into all Lands. What though it be not promiſed? you may prattle of it notwithſtanding, now and then: All the danger is, if you do it often. Do but beware of that, and you have liberty not only to gape for great things, but to chat concerning them. Though how to make their tongues lie ſtill will be hard to tell, when they hear from W. B. not only of a ſingle Viſion, but of Viſions, Raptures, and Revelations. Away, Away with this illfavour'd daubing, and theſe witleſs Apologies. Throw away your Plaſters good Doctor, for they are too narrow for the Sore. The People have been cheated too much already, do not for p. 189ſhame indeavour to continue the Impoſture. Be contented now, to hear that you and your Friends are ſometimes miſtaken, and have miſled the ſimple; And do not peremptorily reſolve that you will be in the right, or at leaſt will ſpeak in the Apoſtolical ſtyle, that you may be admired; as if with St. Paul you were caught up into the third Heavens.

N. C.

I am convinced that theſe are not ſafe expreſſions; and I wiſh they would forbear them.

C.

And yet Phil. can patiently hear them talk of opening all their windows for new light, without ſaying a word againſt it. A wondrous zealous man when he liſt; and when it pleaſes him, as cold as Ice. Time was, when theſe things were thought to be of moſt pernicious conſequence: and it was one of the Reaſons given againſt the Toleration which the Independents ſought for: That they profeſſed Reſerves, and New Lights, for which they will (no doubt) expect the like Toleration, and ſo without any end iiLetter of the London Miniſters to the Aſſembly. Jan. 1. 1645. P. 3.. Let them move for Toleration when once they are poſitively determined how far they mean to go, and where they mean to ſtay: till then it is not ſeaſonable. Thus they p. 190diſcourſed heretofore: But now—

N. C.

You muſt conſider, that he may be ignorant of theſe things.

C.

Or troubles not his thoughts about them. What though the New Lights proved but flaſhes of Lightning? its all one to him, you may keep your windows ſtill open. And this I remember, was one flaſh of thoſe hot-brain'd men: that the Two Witneſſes kkSome Flaſhes of lightning of the Son of Man Serm. 9. p. 195, &c. an. 1648., who are to do ſuch wonders, are Chriſt in Fleſh, and Chriſt in Spirit. Chriſt in Fleſh teſtifying in weakneſs and meanneſs; but, Chriſt in Spirit teſtifying in more power and glory. And would you know who theſe are? Behold another Flaſh: They are the Saints, into whom the holy anointing runs through the Fleſh and Spirit of Chriſt. Chriſt in Fleſh hath much of the nature of the Old Teſtament: Chriſt in Spirit hath more of the New. But however, it is generally to be underſtood of the Saints, Who are the two anointed ones, Zach. 4. and the two Olive Trees riſing out of the Root of God—

N. C.

I'le ſhut my ears, for they cannot away with ſuch ſtuff.

C.

And if Phil. would ſhut his eyes too, it would be better for him. The p. 191Eaſtern Proverb gives him wiſer counſel, than W. B. not to open all the windows, but to ſhut them: for then the whole houſe will be full of light. If he would leave off hearing and telling of ſtories, and retire ſeriouſly into his own ſoul, it would inform him that he is too forward and bold; and that he ought to know more before he be a Writer. Nay, he would find great reaſon, I believe, to ſuſpect his ſincerity: ſince he deals not his Reproofs impartially, when he hath occaſion; but can better endure to hear one man cry open your windows for new light, than hear another only make an innocent reflection on that vanity:

N. C.

I think he hath required your conceit, with his ſtory of the Link-boy and a man in black, pag. 48.

C.

Good! He will bring up a new name for our Miniſters; the men in black. Are not theſe excellent Servants of Jeſus Chriſt, holy men of God; that teach the people nick-names for us? What will pleaſe thoſe, who can neither indure the men in white, nor the men in black? Or what will reform thoſe, who after they have been admoniſht of the foulneſs of this crime in others, and p. 192think they were too ſharply rebuked for it; commit it impudently themſelves?

N. C.

He confeſſes with ſhame and ſorrow, that the common people have too much reproached your Miniſters as they went along the Streets llP. 239..

C.

So much the more reaſon for a a deeper bluſh and greater confuſion in his face, that he ſhould ſtill continue the reproaches. But mark, I pray, his baſe hypocriſie; (for I can make nothing elſe of it) who will not forbear, even when he is confeſſing a ſin with ſhame and ſorrow, to make himſelf merry, and ſo to take away all ſenſe of it. They ſhould not have reproached them, ſaith he, if they met them ſober, and their preſent geſture was not bowing and reeling. What was this, but to abate the edg of his reproof, and to make the guilty ſmile, when he ſhould have made them cry? Reproof did I call it? No. He hath none for ſo petty a crime as this. It is but a trifle to call a good Miniſter, Baal's Prieſt, Black Devil (as one lately called an excellent perſon) For this is all he hath to ſay to it. It was, and is, very uncomely to reproach them when they meet them ſober, &c. Very uncomly! p. 193O! How mild and gentle the man is grown on a ſuddain? How cool and loſt is his breath after all his bloſtering; as if he would not moleſt a feather? He is as tender as that Gentleman, who told us, the main thing in which all Gods people generally from the h…gheſt to the loweſt have been too unskilful, is denying ſelf, and contemning thoſe allurements of gain, which puff up the mind of men with boaſting and vain glory mmShort Diſcourſe concerning the work of God, in this Nation, 1659. pag. 5.: or, as thoſe that ſaid, the Browniſts, who had faln into a damnable Schiſm (as I told you the laſt time nnOut of Mr. Gifford. pag. 329. of the Continuation.) were a little over-ſh…t in ſome matters. Alas for them! that they ſhould be ſuch ſhrewd men at getting mony, and ſo unskilful in ſelf-denial! Verily, it is a defect. It is not well, that they have gone ſo farr from the Church of God. Nor is it a comely thing, that his Miniſters ſhould be reviled. No; it is very uncomely. They ought to have paſſed them by civilly ooP. 240. of his Anſw.: indeed, they ought. But how if they do not? Why? they may be Saints for all that, as far as I can perceive; only not ſo mannerly as he wiſhes they were. Or if they be not, they may think themſelves to be ſo, notwithſtanding any thing this Gentleman p. 194hath to ſay, who dares not diſpleaſe them. And here, if you obſerve it, he hath given us a notable proof of his diſingenuity and ſpightful folly, in thruſting into his Book ſo many idle ſtories, whoſe Authors we know not where to find, and of which he himſelf hath no aſſurance. I could tell you, ſaith he, of a Link-boy, &c. Could tell us? What? more than he hath told us? No. Who he was, ſaith he, I cannot tell ppIb p. 48.. A pretty piece of hypocriſie; to make a ſhow as if he would not tell a ſtory, and in that very breath to tell as much of it as he knows. And a fine way of writing falſly, to blot Paper with ſtories taken up in the Streets, of he cannot tell whom. One of M. Bucer's Phariſees I ſee is revived, that eaſily believes tales, and having raſhly believed them, loves to ſpread and ſcatter them abroad qqContinuation, pag. 260.. And he is ſo much the worſe, becauſe when he diſtruſts them, yet he will not ſtick to report them. I ſhall not meddle with the private ſtories, notoriouſly falſe, which he hath helpt to blow about (though if he go on at the rate he hath begun, he may be brought in danger of the Statute againſt the Spreaders of falſe News) you may find another abſurd p. 195paſſage in his Book, p. 266. which he dares not affirm upon …s word. For it was uſed, he ſaith, if I miſtake not, by one of your Preachers: and it was this, or to this effect, &c. I have diſcovered ſo many of his miſtakes, that I can ſee no reaſon to believe it. It might be a a Preacher of your own who ſpoke thoſe words, or he might not ſpeak to that purpoſe, but ſome other. But they ſay (p. 292) they are reported. (p. 240.) If fame may be truſted (p. 244.) and ſuch like Authorities are brought as the ſtrongeſt warrant he hath for his tale; wherewith he abuſes the people; and ſlanders his neighbours. You may wonder indeed (as I find a great ſtickler rrW. Walwyn Fountain of Slander diſcovered. 1649. p. 8.in the late times notably diſcourſing) That Religious people are ſo ready to catch and carry aſperſions from man to man, and not have ſo much honeſty and charity as firſt to be fully ſatisfied of the truth of that which they report; and that the taking away of mens good name ſhould be thought no ſin among them. But truly (ſaith he) I do not wonder at it, for where notional or verbal Religion, which at beſt is but Superſtiti…n, is Author of that little ſhadow of goodneſs which poſſeſſes men, it is p. 196no marvel they have ſo little hold of themſelves; for they want that innate, imbred virtue which makes men good men; that pure and undefiled Religion, which truly denominates them good Chriſtians, and which only gives ſtrength againſt temptations of this nature. This is the great defect of your Philagathus, who hath ſo little even of that innate honeſty which is in many men ſhort of Chriſtianity, that he doth far worſe things than thoſe which diſpleaſe him in others. He finds fault with me for looking ſo far back as 1642, and that when there was a good cauſe for it, and when I quoted good and undoubted Authorities: but he moſt baſely drags in a vagrant ſtory ssP. 140.; which his Ignorant Readers may think to be piping hot (as he ſpeaks in another place) out of the Pulpit, when, in truth, it is ſo old that he knows not the Original of it. For the Crocodile of Time, and the Dog of the Diſcourſe, were laught at long before he ſaw the Univerſity. With ſuch ſtories, I doubt not, he is able to furniſh us without any number, though we had not his word for it. Every boy can do as much. And rather than fail, he, for his part, is ſo unworthy, that he will ſtoop to believe Libels, p. 197and thence increaſe the long liſt of his tales, which he hath muſtered up.

N. C.

You wrong him ſurely. He cannot be ſo baſe.

C.

It is as I tell you. Witneſs what he writes, p. 121. It hath been ſaid, you have been teaching two year, the reaſon why we are Chriſtians: as if all the Congregation had been Infidels. This was ſaid, the truth is, of a Miniſter in the Town (whom he, good man, all along takes for me) in a Li…el lately laid under the Church Bible; as I have heard from thoſe to whom this very Gentleman hath reported it. And if you ſaw it all, it would be ſingular teſtimony how much ſome, at leaſt, of your people improve in thoſe great Virtues of arrogance, ſelfconceit, wrath, bitterneſs and reviling: And how welcome ſuch a Reprover as this will be to them, who ſhall only whine and ſay, Verily, It is very uncomely, you may eaſily imagine. For I am inform'd withal, that there are other lyes there, and ſeveral expreſſions as modeſt and humble as thoſe (and of the ſame nature) which one uſed in his Prayer in the beginning of the late Wars before the Miniſter of the Pariſh; Good Lord, Good Lord, deliver p. 198this Congregation from this man, who is unlearned, unpowerful, unprofitable: or as theſe; O Lord, thou knoweſt good Lord, that we never had the truth preached among us until now —

N. C.

Now you are going to tell us the faults of our Prayers. But Sir; if you would not be thought to be a perfect Atheiſt: If you would not contract a hundred fold ſo much odium, as did he that wrote the Gangrene: If you would not have your name rot and ſtink among all good men throughout all generations; if you would not —

C.

Pray ſpare your Conjurations (a lurry of which I remember in his Book ttPag. 100, 101.) for they are of no efficacy at all. I am far from thinking you the only good men that muſt embalm our names, or elſe they rot and ſtink. That's a proud imagination of your own, which will never enter in my thoughts. Are you the great Chamberlains of the Houſe of God? (as the Biſhop of Galloway uuDefence of his Apology. p. 44.ſpeaks) Are all the veſſels of Honour in it committed to your cuſtody? Are you Keepers of the Book of Life, wherein the names of the Heirs of Grace are all regiſtred? Have you the Balance of the Sanctuary, or is p. 199the Fan put into your hands to ſeparate chaff and corn? ſpeak no more ſo preſumptuouſly: and let not ſuch arrogance come out of your mouth: leſt it prove true upon you which St. Auſtin hath to Parmenian; Becauſe you have loſt patience, and make haſt before the time to ſeparate Chaff and Corn, accounting at your pleaſure ſome men abominable, and ſome approved, you have declared your ſelves to be but chaff, and moſt light chaff, carried out of the compaſs of Charity by the wind of your own Pride. But be what you pleaſe, know that I deſpiſe your proud vaunts: and am not afraid of your big and ſcornful looks, I matter not your hatred, nor regard your raſh and ſupercilious cenſures. As for the odious names wherewith you brand us, they are but a trifle in my account. I have other reaſons to keep me from ſuch imployment, about which I never had ſo much as one thought.

N. C.

Not a thought? He ſaith, there is Book coming out, ſuppoſed to be yours, conſiſting of a Collection of Non-ſenſe and Blaſphemy, ſaid to have faln from ſome mens Prayers.

C.

I know nothing of it, no more p. 200than himſelf. But whatſoever he hears, ſuppoſes, or imagines, muſt down preſen…y in Print. And that's the way to m…ke great Books in an inſtant, and likew…ſe to raiſe great wrath in the peoples hearts againſt me, out of mere ſurmiſes.

N. C.

You have ſhewn your inclination this way, by what you have told me juſt now.

C.

You ſhew your ignorance. Thoſe are paſſages in Print already, which you may find in a Book xxHaereſiogr…p…y p. 66.of Mr. Ephraius Paget's; who tells you, the firſt of them was uttered in his own Pulpit, and in his preſence, concerning himſelf. And I could ſend you to other Books, where from goo… Authority you may find many more. But I hate the way of this Scribler, who relates ſtories that have no body to be their vouchers: for it is a courſe neither Wiſe nor Honeſt. Who is there that cannot invent a thouſand out of his own head, if he be ſo minded? And how ſhall the people know, that the trueſt are not mere devices, when they know not ſo much as the perſon who reports them. If I had been guilty of ſuch a fault (who have referr'd you to Authors in Print for all the matters p. 201of fact that I have related) he would have told me of it on both ears; and cryed out, as he doth upon the occaſion of ſomething which he ſaith, I did but inſinuate: Shew me ſuch a thing in Print, or quote me ſuch a paſſage out of their Sermons yyPag. 81.. But he hath one rule for himſelf, and another for other folk. We muſt write out of Books in Print; but he from News Merchants, or his own Imagination, never conſidering that we are not ſo dull or unacquainted with the world, but, if we liſt, we can give him, as they ſay, a Rowland for his Oliver; Nay, repay him with ſuch ſtories, I aſſure him, and thoſe ſo well atteſted, as ſhall make every vein in his heart to ake. Let him put it to the trial, if he pleaſe to go on at this rate: For the preſent I'le let him alone, and only follow him to hear what he hath further to ſay out of his Apocrypha; for certain and authoriſed Hiſtories he hath none. It is thought, ſaith he, to me zzPag. 82.; that you your ſelf in thoſe days (for ſome reaſon that is ſuggeſted) had not ſo great a zeal againſt all that which ſome men call Sacriledg, as now you pretend to have; and were ſo far from reproving others for it, that— p. 202What's the matter now that he makes a ſtop? Is he choakt with his tale, and doth it give him the lye in his throat? Or, Is this a wicked Art he hath, of telling half a ſpightful ſtory, and reſerving the reſt, that the people may make it up with what they pleaſe?

N. C.

He ſpeaks not confidently, but only tells you it is thought from ſomething that is ſuggeſted, &c.

C.

So it was thought, and more than ſuggeſted, that a right Reverend Perſon kept a great deal of the Poors mony in his hand, when he never ſo much as finger'd it. If the Father of Lyes ſuggeſt things, will you preſently divulg them and ſend them abroad? Nay, muſt your evil ſurmiſings be made ſo publick as to be put in Print?

N. C.

That I confeſs was ill done.

C.

It had not been ſo bad, if he had told you all that was thought, and the reaſons upon which it was ſuggeſted; but now he leaves every body to think all the evil of me that their ill nature can invent. As they will ſuppoſe from his words, (who never gueſſes aright) that I was a Reprover of others in thoſe days, (when the truth is, I was then but a boy, newly come from School) ſo they p. 203will be apt to imagine I was, at leaſt, an applauder of that which I now condemn. But the moſt quick-ſighted of that lying faction (I hope I may have leave to uſe thoſe words of a very great perſon aaHis Highneſs Prince Rupert in his Declaration. 1642. p. 3.) will never be able to find the time, the place, the man or woman, when, where, and before whom I ſignified the leaſt approbation of ſo great a crime, as I always accounted it. Let Philag. himſelf, when he hath more knowledg of me, be ſent to all the places where I have lived to trace my ſteps, and when he returns, let him put the worſt he can hear of me in Print, I ſhall not bluſh to read it.

N. C.

You are very confident.

C.

Not that I ſhall eſcape all ſlanders; for I have already met with good ſtore: and have been admoniſht alſo to expect them, if ever I went about to promote any publick good, or to remove any old, or newly ſettled evil. This every body can teach us, it is ſo common. Let ſuch a man (ſaith one of the late times bbFountain of Slander diſcovered.) reſolve that according to the good he would do, ſo ſhall his aſperſions be. Nor let him think, when time and his conſtant actions have worn out one, or two, or ten aſperſions, p. 204that he ſhall be therefore free: but if he continue to mind their good, he ſhall be ſure to find new ones, ſuch as he never dreamt of, nor could imagine. Such an one is this now caſt upon me by Philag. who ſnarls at my heels very often, and would fain faſten if he could; but now barks perfectly in the dark, (as a worthy perſon ſomewhere ſpeaks) without the help of Moon-ſhine to direct him in his ſnarling. He may as well accuſe me of Witchcraft, as of any thing of that nature; or ſay that I worſhip the Man in the Moon, for it is as true, as that I ſo much as favour'd any thing that any men call Sacriledg.

N. C.

He cryes you mercy, if he be miſinform'd, Ib. p. 82.

C.

Let him ask mercy of God, and repent of ſuch groſs hypocriſie as makes him wantonly play with a mans good Name; and when he hath abuſed it, think he hath made amends with a word, ſaying, I cry you mercy Sir.

N. C.

Have you not ſpoken concerning others?

C.

Not without good ground, and great cauſe: to vindicate our ſelves from their proud contempt; and the p. 205odious name of Time-ſervers, and to take from them that unjuſt reputation which they affect, of being more knowing and more godly than all or…ers.

N. C.

You might have put amore candid conſtruction upon their ſilence ccIb. p. 82.about Sacriledg.

C.

He can tell me nothing to alter my opinion, but only that it is poſſible their ſilence might ſpring from no other cauſe, but this, that they had not the ſame notions and apprehenſions concerning Sacriledg, as ſome have; or that they did think, that Church-lands would not have been ſo diſpoſed of as they were, &c. A very doughty Champion! To have ſuch an extraordinary motion to undertake your defence, and to be able to perform ſo little when he comes to the buſineſs; is a very great ſhame.

N. C.

Why? Is this nothing?

C.

What doth it amount to? It is poſſible there were other cauſes; and it is poſſible, I have hit on the right; and more than that, it is poſſible he may think ſo when I have told him the unlikelihood of his. Did they not know how many people had of a long time gaped for the remnant of the Church-Revenues? Were they not inform'd by one p. 206of their own Authors in Queen Elizabeth's time, that too many of their Scholars coveted and craved them with great hunger? While they hear us ſpeak (ſaith the Author of the Eccleſiaſtical Diſcipline) againſt Biſhops and Cathedral Churches, it tickles their ears, looking for the like prey they had before of the Monaſteries. Yea, they have in their hearts already devoured the Churches Inheritance. They care not for Religion, ſo they may get the ſpoil. They could be content to crucifie Chriſt, ſo they might have his Garments. Our Age is full of ſpoiling Souldiers, and moſt wicked Dionyſius's, who will rob Chriſt of his golden Coat, as neither fit for him in Winter nor Summer. They are cormorants, and ſeek to fill the bottomleſs Sack of their greedy Appetite. They do yawn after a prey, and would thereby to their perpetual ſhame purchaſe to themſelves a Field of Blood ddIt is quoted in Biſhop (then only Doctor) Bancrofs Sermon at Pauls-Croſs. 1588. p. 9. who admoniſhed them elſewhere, that by their out-cries they might farther impoveriſh the Church, but they ſhould be ſure to be little better for it.. Thus T.C. more ſharply inveighed againſt the wickedneſs of ſome who then followed them, than I have done againſt any now. He made bold to ſay, the Age was ſull of ſuch irreligious men, as I think abound p. 207now; and yet I muſt be thought wicked, ungodly and malicious; for ſuch a ſuppoſal, and he, no doubt, a zealous reprover of ſin. But let that paſs. This ſo early and open declaration of the evil Spirit that then ruled in the Enemies of Biſhops, ſhould have taught and admoniſhed all your Miniſters, one would think, in ſuch a tumultuous and audacious Age as ours, to take all occaſions to warn men againſt ſuch wickedneſs. For that the chief of them eſteemed it ſo, I make no doubt; whatſoever this Ignorant Apologiſt ſurmiſes. Mr. Rich. Vines I remember, very honeſtly, gave the Parliament a touch of it, by citing (in a Sermon not Printed) a place concerning Sacriledg out of Mr. Hilderſham on the 51. Pſalm. But he tells Mr. Baxter, in a Letter to him eeWhich he Printed upon another occaſion in his third Diſput. about Ch. Government and Worſhip. p. 350., that it did not pleaſe; and adds withal; that moſt are of opinion, that while the Church lies ſo unprovided for, the donations are not alienable without Sacriledg. And therefore it is moſt probable the Annotators were of that mind; and ſo ſhould have indeavoured at leaſt to prevent the farther growth of this profaneneſs by ſome cautions againſt it; if p. 208not told that High Court, with the freedom and plainneſs, (which they ſeem to affect) what the Lord Bacon hath ſaid; viz. That the Parliament of England owe… ſome ſatisfaction for the many injuries and unjuſt oppreſſions formerly done by them to the Church; and therefore ſhould be far from going about to increaſe that debt. There was a pious man, one Mr. Ʋdal ffMiniſter at St. Auſtinsgate., that ventured an undoing in this cauſe: being ſequeſtred, and more than that, put into the Firſt Century of Scandalous Miniſters, for writing a Book called Noli me tangere: In which, ſaith Mr. White ggCent. 1. Example 22., he charges the Parliament with Sacriledg. This was all they had to ſay againſt him; together with theſe words, That he affirm'd the great Reformers of the Church now were Hypocrites (for as for the laſt clauſe, that he otherways expreſſed great malignity againſt the Parliament, it was but a form, you know, then in uſe, when they had nothing againſt a man that deſerved ſuch cruel uſage) whether he ſaid the latter words or no, I know not, but I am ſure he is falſely charged with the former: for he did not ſay the Parliament was guilty of Sacriledg, as appears by the Book it p. 209ſelf, which I have read hhPrinted, 1642.He only ſhews the danger of this ſin, and what judgments have faln upon thoſe who were guilty of it, even upon Sacrilegious Princes. And his inſtances are ſuch as might have given his Majeſty more juſt reaſon of anger than the Parliament: of whom he only ſays this. That no man ſhould think the nature of the ſin altered, if the alienation of Church-Lands be done by a National-Aſſembly of the Eſtates in Parliament: and deſires them rather to think it a worthy work and befitting a Parliamentary Reformation, to reſtore the Tithes to the proper owners, than taking away the reſidue of their Lands. Gravely Praying withal to God, that he would grant them wiſdom to ſee the injuſtice and impiety of the peoples deſires this way, who for the moſt part are led by wicked paſſions and diſtempers, rather than by Reaſon and Religion. But it ſeems it was ſo dangerous a thing then, only to name the word Sacriledg with abhorrence, that the poor man loſt his Living, and his good Name too, (and ſuffered otherways moſt lamentably) for deſiring them to have no hand in it; and praying God the ungodly deſires of the p. 210people might not hurry them to that, to which perhaps they had no inclination of themſelves. This was enough to terrifie all that had not great integrity and courage from meddling in this matter—

N. C.

In which I wiſh Philag. had not meddled, but let it paſs; for it doth but make you bring out old ſtories, which I love not to hear of.

C,

Then you think, belike, that it was very diſcreetly done of him, to paſs over ſo great a part of my Book as he hath left untoucht, and only ſnapt at it here and there; though, I muſt confeſs, I look upon this as a part of his diſingenuity and partiality. For why did he not plainly confeſs the truth of what I ſaid in many places, and pray you to reform? Why did he not bewail the folly wherewith this poor Nation is overrun by your new invented phraſes iiPag. 34, 35. of Friendly Debate.? The kicking of your people againſt reproof kkPag. 17, 18. the reſt you'l eaſily ſiad.; their reviling of Common Prayer; their bold pretence to familiarity with God, when they only let their tongue looſe without any reſtraint; their unreaſonable antipathies to a Form of Prayer; their headineſs, and ungovern'd paſſion; their conceit of themſelves p. 211and their own gifts; their raſh cenſures and groſs ſuperſtition; their contempt of Governours, and malepertneſs toward their Superiours, the licentiouſneſs of their tongues, and rejoyceing in iniquity, their appropriating to themſelves the name of Godly, their murmuring, impatience, wicked and ſcandalous reports of Biſhops without any foundation; with a great heap of other things, which this brisk Gentleman very nimbly and confidently skips over? It ſeems, your people have no liſt, or leiſure, to think of theſe matters. There are higher and more glorious Diſcoveries to take up their thoughts; and they leave this dull, low Morality to us. The ſlaying of the Witneſſes, the downfal of Babylon, the calling of the Jews, &c. are fit ſubjects for their meditation, not theſe poor things which concern their Duty. Thus Mt. Greenham obſerved long ago llFifth part of his works, Chap 74. p. 797.; It is often the policy of the Devil, to make men travail in ſome good things to come, when more fitly they might be occupied in good things preſent. And experience, ſaith he, teacheth, that many meddle with the matters of the Church; who are ſ…nſeleſs and barren in the Doctrine of the Now…irth.

p. 212In one thing indeed I muſt commend his ingenuity, in that he fairly acknowledges, they break his Majeſties Law to get a living mmRead p. 5.. This is an honeſt confeſſion; and thus far he did well, in not excuſing the buſineſs with a company of Religious Phraſes. If he had alſo told us that a great reaſon of his writing againſt me, was to get a little mony; I believe he had come neare… the truth, than when he tells us of his zeal for God. But he could not hold long in a good mood: For he is ſo kind and good natur'd to his own party, that he thinks, not only fear of wanting a maintenance, but want of good company fit for a Scholar is ſufficient to warrant their breach of the Law nnPag. 7.; and at laſt he talks alſo of opportunities of doing good, as if there were no opportunities, but only in prohibited places: Nay, he aſſerts this moſt pernicious principle, that they are not bound to obey the Laws unleſs they be forced ooP. 6 Of the Book and Pref. p. 14.; that is not for Conſcience, no nor for fear of wrath, but when Juſtice lays hold of them, and is too ſtrong for them.

N. C.

Why? Do you read that Chriſt left Nazareth till they roſe up and thruſt him out of the City, Luke 4.29, &c.ppIb p 6.

p. 213C.

Nor do we find there was any Law againſt Chriſt's being at Nazareth. Why do you not bluſh at this vile and beggerly way of arguing? Do the Novices he talks of, that come frisking into the Pulpit with the ſhells on their heads qqP. 284., ever diſcourſe thus weakly? Is it eaſie to find a Boy of any parts, that would reaſon after this childiſh faſhion? If he reaſon no better in his Sermons, than he doth in his Writings; God help the people that are inſtructed by him. They are like to be abuſed even by the holy Scripture; and to have many an untruth confidently impoſed on them, with the Word of God to avouch it: And therefore had better, a great deal, be taught by one of thoſe ſtriplings, if humble and modeſt; than by this bold frisking Senior.

N.C.

I am convinced of the impertinency of this Quotation.

C.

And what doth the reſt of his Diſcourſe in that place amount unto but this? that when men have no temptation to break a Law, he hath nothing to plead in their behalf: but when they have, (though it be but ſmall; as the want of good company, or the like) he deſires they may be excuſed. An excellent p. 214Caſuiſt! By this device all the world may be ſaved; for, What man is there that ſins without a temptation? And, if men may break Laws for fear of want, I pray, what ſhall become of living by faith on Gods Providence, which he would have us think you commend as much as we, when there is no viſible means of ſubſiſtence? What did our Saviour mean by taking up our Croſs: a Doctrine I put you in mind of at the very firſt, but which he cunningly ſlips over? Might not the old N. C. have uſed the ſame plea that he doth, and have preached till their mouths, as we ſay, were ſowed up? Or, Were they ignorant of their Chriſtian Liberty? And, Have you received a New Light, whereby you ſee a man is free from Laws when he is in ſtraits; and need not obſerve them, to his own inconvenience, unleſs he be compelled by force and violence? Well, I ſee what value ſuch men as theſe ſet upon the Peace of the Church of God, who care not how it is diſtracted, ſo they may be but ſure to be maintain'd. They have loſt the Spirit of the old Chriſtians, who choſe to indure any thing rather than a breach ſhould be made in the Body of Chriſt. p. 215The words of Dionyſius Biſhop of Alexandria in his Letter to Novatian, (called there Novatus) are very remarkable: as I find them alledged by the Profeſſors and Doctors of Aberdene qqDuplies 1638. pag. 11. out of Euſeb. l. 6. Hiſt. Eccleſ. c. 45.Sir 45, to the Miniſters that came to urge the Covenant upon their people. You ought rather to have ſuffered any thing, whatſoever, for avoiding of cutting aſunder the Church of God. And Martyrdom for keeping the Church from Schiſm is no leſs glorious, than that which is ſuffered for not committing Idolatry. And in my opinion, alſo, it is greater: for, in ſuffering Martyrdom for not committing Idolatry, a man ſuffereth for one, even for his own Soul; but here a man ſuffers Martyrdom for the whole Church. Mr. Calamy alſo, I remember, prefixes this ſentence out of St. Cyprian, to a Sermon of his before the Lords **Decemb. 25. 1644.; We prefer the Peace of the Church before Martyrdom. It is worſe to make a Schiſm in the Church than to ſacrifice to an Idol. And in his Dedicatory Epiſtle to them, he cites this paſſage out of Ruffinus **L. 2. c. 9., that Nazianzen ſeeing there was like to be a great diſturbance, unleſs he yielded up his place to another, broke out into this ſpeech; God forbid that for my cauſe p. 216any differences ſhould ariſe among the Miniſters of God: If this tempeſt be raiſed for my cauſe, take me and throw me into the Sea, that ſo it may ceaſe. But there is an eaſier way to Martyrdom diſcovered now by the great Philagathus, who teaches men to do as they liſt, that is, to break the Laws, and keep ſeparated Meetings where they think good, and yet they ſhall be Martyrs, and he is able to write their Martyrology.

N.C.

Thoſe muſt paſs for careleſs words.

C.

I think he doth not mind very much what he writes; for if he did, he would not have left ſuch an odious Character of you, as he hath done.

N.C.

Of whom?

C.

Of ſuch as you, who have no more love and gratitude to thoſe who have ſerved you, than to ſuffer them to be in ſuch ſtraits as tempts them to ſin againſt God. What ſtrange creatures doth he make you by this diſcourſe? Are your people grown ſo bad (after you have extolled them ſo much) that they will not relieve a poor helpleſs Miniſter, unleſs he will break the Laws for their humour? Will they do nothing for them in remembrance of p. 217their old ſervices? Are they ſo hard hearted that they have no pity on the poor, no not thoſe of the Sacred Profeſſion? and the honeſter and more conſcientious they are, ſhall they find the leſs favour? O wicked Generation! Thoſe you account ungodly, I am confident would be more charitable. A number of our people would have pitied and relieved them, I am ſure, if they had taken the ſame courſe that their Fore-fathers did. I profeſs my ſelf one of thoſe that would have cheerfully ſuccoured ſuch good men, who meekly ſuffered for Conſcience ſake. This would have made a friendly agreement between us; and rendred them men worthy to be beloved. And when our Governours had ſeen them do all the Laws require as farr as they could, and not croſſing them when they could not obey them; it might perhaps have inclined them to hearken to motions of accommodation; which is not to be hoped for, I am ſure not to be deſired, by bold vi… lation of the Laws, and high contempt of our Governours.

But I muſt not let him paſs on this faſhion. He hath made ſuch a long declamation about their ſtraits, that I p. 218muſt ask you, Did you know what it was heretofore to have a Wife and a great many young Children, and nothing wherewithal to maintain them? (they are his own words rrPag. 5., which I uſe, to let him ſee his boldneſs in mentioning ſuch things) Th… Sir, let me tell you, was the caſe of ſeveral Miniſters who were worſe uſed than any man is now. For they were not barely turned out of their places, and as his great Friend ssDr. Bate Elench. M…tuum. 1. part. p. 59.aſſures us, ſpoil'd of their Houſes, Goods and Revenues, under the name of Sequeſtration, but ſhut up divers years in cloſe Priſons and Dungeons, in Ships alſo, even in the heats of Summer; and there without hearing of their cauſe, or any accuſation preferred againſt them, macerated with naſtineſs, faſtings, and watchings. Who was there then allowed to contrive Oaths in their own words, which this man deſires? And were they not debarr'd the benefit of teaching the Children of their Friends? (a very contemptible office in this Gentleman's account ttP. 21. It would make your heart bleed to ſee them ſerve as poor Paedagogues.) and baniſht alſo out of whole Counties (and not meerly ſent five mile from a place) as I told you heretofore uuFriendly Debate. p. 219., but he would not be pleaſed to obſerve it?

N.C.

Good Sir, tell us not theſe ſad p. 219ſtories over again; we are ſenſible of what you ſay, and ſorry for it.

C.

If you be, I will forbear to give you ſuch a liſt of ſuffering Miniſters as you do not think of. But why doth this man ſo audaciouſly affirm, that their ſufferings were not ſo great, as really they were; and make the world believe that now your Miniſters ſuffer ſuch things, that it is to be lamented with tears of blood?

N. C.

You bid the N. C. ſhew what hath befaln them that ſhould deſerve the name of hard uſage, pag. 27. of your Book xxSo he writes, p. 231..

C.

It ſhould be p. 217. And here now begins his lying and jugling (of which you ſhall hear more afterward, if you will be ſo patient.) For I ſaid, that deſerves the name of Perſecution, and ſuch Perſecution as is grievous, nay, intolerable. Conſider, I beſeech you, what you are to think of ſuch a man as this. Will you take him to be either ſo conſcientious, or ſo wiſe, as he would perſwade the world be is, who boldly changes the words of a Book, which he tells you is known in Court, City, Country, and Ʋniverſities yyP. 292.? O…e would think he is paſt feeling … theſe matters, p. 220and cares not what he doth, if he can but promote the Cauſe, and make the Ignorant believe my Book is Anſwered.

N. C.

He was willing, he tells you, to decline the word Perſecution.

C.

Was he ſo? He ſhould have declined alſo the falſifying of Books, and the altering other mens words (eſpecially in ſuch a caſe as that which we debated) which he ſhould firſt of all have ſincerely repreſented, and then ſaid what he pleaſed. But in ſtead of this, he impudently chops and changes my words more than once, all after as he thinks good. You ſay, (theſe are his words, p. 246.) the N.C. do but fanſie themſelves to be great ſufferers: which he had ſaid before alſo, p. 231. And if you look further, he will tell you, that I manifeſtly affirm they have no cauſe to complain of any hard things which they ſuffer at this day, p. 250. And in one or two places my words are dwindled into theſe, You can tell them, they do but fanſie themſelves to be under ſufferings, pag. 248 zzAnd in the Preface. pag 31.. And yet my words were, Since you fanſie you are perſecuted, when you are not, &c: p. 190. & 237. So he is contented to report them in one place aaP. 237., p. 221and no more, that I can obſerve: For though he declines the word as much as he can, he plainly ſignifies that he believes the thing, telling us upon this occaſion of their being Martyrs, and of a Martyrology he could write, as I before noted. But to paſs by this fraudulent way of writing, which he is often guilty of; let you and I debate this buſineſs together if you pleaſe.

N. C.

With all my heart; for it akes, when I think of what he ſaith of their ſufferings.

C.

But you muſt give me leave to note, before we enter upon it, that the nature of man is very apt to complain, and none more than your ſelves. Who, I have always obſerved, are a very delicate and nice ſort of people, that make a lamentable noiſe if all things go not after your mind; nay, put the finger in eye, and cry Perſecution, upon very ſmall cauſes. And therefore we muſt not be too forward to believe all that this man tells us.

N. C.

You make them like little Children, that cry before they be hurt.

C.

They partake very much of the quality of little ones in that particular: who are ſo tender, that they cannot indure p. 222ſo much as the ſcratch of a pin. They muſt have all their deſires granted, and not be reſtrained in the leaſt of their Liberty; otherwiſe, all the Nation ſhall ring with the doleful noiſe of Perſecution, Antichriſtian Perſecution. Immediately your people fanſie they propheſie in Sackcloth, and are in a Sackcloth condition, and carried into the Wilderneſs; even thoſe who live in as good houſes, and wear as good Chamlets, fine Cloth, and Silks, as any body elſe. For which I can find no cauſe, but the high eſteem they have of themſelves, which makes them look upon all the favours which are done them as ſmall; and any the leaſt croſs as exceeding great. What? the precious Sons and Daughters of Sion to be thus uſed! Is it not a ſad thing, that they ſhould be perſecuted to the very gates of Sion, yea into the very gates of their Trade?—

N. C.

I ſhall not indure this language.

C.

It is your own bbW. B. Seaſ. Truths. p. 113. and others.. But if you will not hear it, I will let it alone.

N. C.

And all your Stories which you are going to tell.

C.

There was a Book ccArmy Harmleſs. pag. 2.indeed, which told us of many perſons who p. 223ſuffered in extremity, and others like to do more, for their Non-comportment with the Preſbyterian way; though they judged the ſame to be manifeſtly ſinful and altogether repugnant to the Word: Do you believe this complainer?

N. C.

No, no. They called any little thing, ſuffering in extremity—

C.

And why ſhould we not think, that Philag. is of the ſame humour now; ſince others—

N. C.

I pray come to the buſineſs, and tell me no more of theſe ſtories.

C.

I'le omit the moſt diſpleaſing to you, and only tell you, as a proof of this complaining humour, that there was a Party in the late Uſurpers days, who talk… as lowdly as Phil. can do, of the Perſecution of the Saints, the crucified Cauſe of Jeſus; and ſaid, that the Rulers, Prieſts, and Souldiers had gotten Chriſt upon the Croſs once more, through the High Treaſon of the Judas's of the Times. And what was the matter think you? Nothing but this; a few perſons were ſecured; and ſome were cut ſhort, as they tell you, in their Liberties ddImage of our Reforming Times. Praef. & p. 45. an. 1654.. Nay, ſo grievous it was to ſome to be croſſed and contradicted and brought a p. 224little lower in the world than they were; that they would not only tumble the whole Nation upſide down, but go croſs even to their own publick profeſſions, rather than not have their wills. For this, I remember, was the plea of thoſe who turn'd their Maſters out of doors (after they had called themſelves a few days before, and ſeemed to take a pleaſure in ſtyling themſelves, the Faithful Servants, the Faithful Army of this Parliament) that if it were not done, it would be the undoing of ſome Families. And how many think you were they, for whom all that noiſe and buſtle, and confuſion was made? Some Officen of the Army tell you that, in theſe words eeHumble Repreſentation to the Lieft. Gen. Nov. 1. 1659. pag. 7., We are not ignorant of the grea argument why this Parliament was interrupted. What? Muſt nine Families be undone at once? No, by no means. Have a care of ſuch precious Creatures, and deal tenderly with them; Thoſe mine may be more worth than all the Nation beſide, at leaſt have a better opinion of themſelves, and therefore, What is there to be conſidered ſo much as their concerns?

N. C.

I have heard enough of this, enleſs it were better. Now to the purpoſe.

p. 225C.

This is much to the purpoſe. For you ſee what a ſtir ſome men are apt to make, if they be in danger to be leſs than they were before; and how much they prefer the ſatisfaction of a few before the publique tranquillity. Such men you may be ſure will murmur and repine when they are brought down indeed; as thinking they receive a great injury when they are not in place of power and dignity, and are uſed hardly, when they do not rule and govern us.

N. C.

But this is nothing to thoſe who have loſt all.

C.

But it ſhews that we muſt not preſently believe mens condition ſo bad, as their complaints repreſent it. For thoſe nine would not have been undone, if they had loſt the places they then held. And I muſt tell you, it hath been an old trick, as to multiply the numbers of thoſe who are diſaffected to the Religion and Government eſtabliſhed, ſo to magnifie their ſufferings. They have always made a grievous moan, and cryed out of hard and cruel dealing, if but a little puniſhed, that might move the pity of the people towards themſelves, and their hatred towards their Governours. Thus Campian, I remember, exclaimed p. 226and complained of the Queens rigor in putting him twice upon the rack, which, he ſaid, was worſe tha… hanging, (juſt as Philag. ſaith, burning of them is a ſhorter ſuffering than ſtarving, p. 80.) when as he had rather ſeen than felt that puniſhment, as the Lieftenant of the Tower told him; Being able, after he came from it, to go to his lodging without help, and uſe his hand in writing, and all other parts of his body; which he could not have done, had he been put to that puniſhment with any ſuch extremity as he ſpoke of. But what will not bold men ſay, eſpecially ſuch men as he? whoſe inpudence (as Mr. Alex. Nowel, and others told him) was very great, in charging her Majeſties Government with cruelty, when the Authors and Profeſſors of his Religion had ſo horribly tormented many for the maintenance of ours ffTrue Report of the Diſput. had in the Tower with Edm. Campian. Ang. the laſt, 1581. Printed 1583.. The very ſame, you cannot but ſee, may be ſaid to your Complainer, who treads in the ſame ſteps, and magnifies as the worth, ſo the ſufferings of ſome men, as if the like was never heard of. Burning is as merciful, or rather more, than that condition of which they are in danger—.

p. 227N. C.

Come; do not repeat his words, but confute them if you can.

C.

Firſt, then let us note where your Philag. makes your Miniſters ſufferings, and hard uſage, to begin; and that is at the Kings Reſtauration.

N. C.

No ſure.

C.

It is clear from the place, where he computes the number of Sufferers, after his faſhion ggP. 233.; and ſuppoſes that the cold dew of an Ejection fell upon two thouſand N. C. Miniſters, at and before Bartholomew-tide, 1662. Which he explain… in his Preface (though it needed not) where he tells us they have been out; and ſo thouſands of ſouls ſtarved for want of the ſincere milk of the Word, almoſt ten years hhPag. 25.. This is very dutifully done, …o make their Miſeries commence with his Majeſties Happineſs. And a marvellous honeſty there is in this Doctors Principles, who reckons their removel from other mens Free-holds for a part of their hard uſage; and tells us they were caſt out of that, which they ought to have freely reſtored. What is this but to juſtifie all Sequeſtrations? —

N. C.

Not a word of that, I beſeech you.

C.

He plainly diſcovers thoſe Principles p. 228are in him, which his Majeſty told us ſhould be rooted up. But I am content now to examine the truth of his complaints concerning their great poverty, (though it will not prove, as you ſhall ſee, that they are hardly uſed) and I would have you deſire him to tell you, how they agree with the Boaſts which one of them makes, in a Book called A Plea for Miniſters in Sequeſtrations iiAn 1660 p 13.; where we are told; It is well known (that's to be obſerved) many of us (that's to be obſerved) many of us need not, nor did need their Eſtates for a ſubſiſtance. The greater number of us, (mark that **For it auſwers his Queſt. p. 7. where are thoſe rich ejected Miniſters to be ſound?—) through the mercy of God, could boaſt of as great Birth, Eſtates, Friends, and offers of Preferment, as they. We having many of us our ſelves Livings and Preferments to beſtow, and ſome beſtowed upon deſerving men. Of this he was very confident and well aſſured, elſe he would not have uttered theſe ſcornful words; I pray God that we may never feel Prelatical c…mpaſſion to us and our families.

N. C.

That was not very modeſtly ſaid.

C.

The reſt of his words require Philagathus to ſhut his mouth a little, and not to gape ſo wide in his complaints; p. 229for a conſiderable number of the poor ſtarved families he ſpeaks of, are cut off from the Liſt by this Swaggerer. As for thoſe that remain, I have great cauſe to believe that he over-laſhes very much, when he ſaith, there are many hundreds of families that have hardly meas to fill their bellies, or clothes to cover their nakedneſs, and in ſhort, are in ſuch a condition, that it is to be lamented with tears of blood. Some, I believe, there are in a very mean condition, and ſo there are among the Conforming Clergy. But that there ſhould be ſo many, and ſo miſerable as he ſpeaks, we muſt have better Authority to make us believe it, than his Word. Nay, it is not eaſie to believe (when we conſider what he ſays elſewhere) that there are any at all. I rather look upon theſe grievous and doleful complaints, as an eaſie Art to draw the peoples compaſſion to them (as was ſaid before) and to raiſe their diſpleaſure againſt their Rulers, who have reduced them to theſe ſtraits. And that you may not think this is a new thing, I pray call to mind the clamours of ſome in the late Times, when they could not have their will, and how diſproportionable the Cauſe was to the Cry. Hear, how p. 230the followers of John Lilburn mouth'd it. In the mournful cry (as they called it) of many thouſand poor Tradeſmen, ready to periſh kkOr the Warning Tears of the oppreſſed. 1647.. O that the crowings of our ſtomachs could be heard by the Parliament and City. O that the tears of our poor famiſhing babes were botled. O that their tender Mothers cries for bread to feed them, were engraven in braſs. O that … pined carkaſſes were open to every eye. O, our hearts faint, and we are ready to … in the top of every ſtreet. O you Members of Parliament, O you rich men in the City, O you Souldiers, ſhew bowels of mercy! O hear how our Children cry Bread, Bread, Bread, and we now once more with bleeding hearts cry pity, pity, an oppreſſed enſlaved people! &c. One would think that theſe were the laſt groans of a dying multitude, and that in the next Bills of Mortality we ſhould have heard of thouſands ſtarved, or fain down dead in the Streets, ſince they found no relief. But they were alive and alive like. They meant not to take their leave of the world yet, but ſtay to bellow on this manner. For which there was no cauſe at all, but only this; that they could not have ſuch Liberties for the people as they deſired. This was the ground p. 231of their mournful cry, which ſeemed to be written (as they were told llDeclaration of John Lilb. and ſome of his Aſſociates. 1648. pag. 56.) by ſome of the Profeſſors of Rhetorick in Newgate or L…dgate, whoſe practice of that kind of Oratory had made him as great a ſtranger to Truth, as to Bluſhing. Such is the Rhetorick of Philagathus, who tells us of ſtarving and famiſhing, rags and tatters, killing all the day long, and crucifying, tears of blood, and heart bleeding: and repeats theſe as often mmPreface, p. 25. Book, p. 21, 46, 80, 149, 22…, 229, 231, 233, 237, 247, 283, &c.as they did their O, O, O; boldly affirming, or rather preſuming, in General terms, without any particular proofs. For, where are thoſe ſtarvlings, and crucified perſons? Where are the Martyr'd or tatter'd creatures, which will wring from us tears of blood? Why are they not brought forth to the view of ſome pitiful eye, as was then ſaid? Spend no longer your breath, but let all this be ſeen; for the view gives deeper impreſſion than mere hearſays. And when they are produced into open ſight, we ſhall go near to ſet as many honeſt and worthy Conformiſts before you, who by reaſon of their great charge, or ſmall maintenance are in as mean a condition, and live as hardly as they. The truth is, this language of Philagathus (as that Declaration ſaid) looks p. 232more like the ebullition of Wine, than the cry of want: and therefore ſometime we find him in another Tune, telling us, that the people generally retain the ſame good thoughts of them that they did heretofore nnP. 149.. If ſo, Why ſhould they want now more than in time paſt; ſince good thoughts will keep up good affections, and thoſe will open the heart, and that the purſe?—

N. C.

Ask me no Queſtions: for I can ſay nothing poſitively in this matter.

C.

Nor he neither: For all is built upon Suppoſitions, as I told you. And you may further obſerve, that his ſo many hundreds of families, of pious and learned Miniſters that have hardly me…, &c, p. 234. by that time he is got to p. 247. are dwindled into the, almoſt ſtarved families of ſcores of N. C. Miniſters, pious and able, &c. When he hath better conſidered of it, he may come down to Doſſens, which is a leſs fall by much than from Many Hundreds to Scores; he could not tell how many, or how few. Nay, his Doſſens at laſt may ſhrink into ſome few families, who (to uſe his own word) it is poſſible may be as tattered and ragged as his Writings. The truth is, his Penruns on p. 233ſo careleſsly, that he drops any thing into his Paper that comes in his way; be it true, or be it falſe; be it certain, or only doubtful. For when I deſired, that your Miniſters would not ſuffer their people to fanſie themſelves under perſecution ooP. 237. of Fr. Deb.: He preſently anſwers with much pertneſs, would it were in our power to make them know themſelves to ſuffer nothing, but if men be turned out of all, &c. ppP. 283. of his Anſw., it is a hard matter to make them inſenſible. He had ſuch a quick ſenſe of himſelf (as he tells you preſently) that he could not think of any thing elſe. But, becauſe he had loſt his Living, imagined the people, who come not to Church, are turned out of all, which was never before now heard of.

N. C.

It is a miſtake.

C.

And ſo is his whole Diſcourſe about Perſecution; which I ſaid could not be pretended for a cauſe of their Separation, nor hath he ſaid a word to ſhew it is ſo grievous and intolerable as to be alledged for that purpoſe. He talks of their ſuffering hard things qqP. 249.; but, what is that to the buſineſs? eſpecially if you conſider, that the worſt things that are inflicted on them, are the effect of their Separation and contempt p. 234of Laws, not the cauſe upon which they ſeparated, as he would have the world believe. For till they left our Churches, and ſet up Congregations of their own, they were only deprived of their places, not impriſoned, or otherwiſe puniſhed. Now, I pray, conſider ſeriouſly; Did ever any man whom you account ſober, call it Perſecution, (which was the thing I ſpoke of) to ſuffer Deprivation, for not conforming to Publick Order? No; it is unjuſtly called hard uſage, and to complain of this, as this Whifler doth (though the condition of ſome men become very ſad thereby) is to complain of all Churches, even of your own, when you had any power. It hath always been thought neceſſary in all places, that there ſhould be ſome Order kept in the Church of Chriſt: For which purpoſe they have found it as neceſſary that there ſhould be ſome Rules and Laws; which ſignifie nothing without Penalties to inforce them; and they as little, if they be not inflicted when men tranſgreſs. So that in concluſion, it is as neceſſary to puniſh thoſe that will not ſubmit to the Laws, as it is to have Publick Order. The French Churches rrEccleſ. Diſcipline of the Reformed Churches in France tranſlated into Engliſh. 1642. Chap. 5. Art. 31.are ſo ſenſible of this, that they have provided in Diſcipline, p. 235That if one or more of the people ſhall move or ſtir up ſtrife, or contention, to disjoyn and break the Union of the Church, concerning ſome Point of their Doctrine or Diſcipline, or about the method, manner, or ſtyle of the Catechiſm, of the Adminiſtration of the Sacraments or Publick Prayers, and the bleſſing of Matrimony; and will not promiſe not to ſpread ought of their opinion in any manner or way whatſoever, till the Synod hath heard them, they ſhall be cenſured as rebellious perſons: And in caſe they will not renounce their Errors after all means tryed to convince them, then they are to be cut off from the Church. But in caſe a Paſtor, or Elder ssIb. Art. 32. Concerning the Conſiſtory., trouble the Peace and break the Union of the Church, or cauſe any ſtrife, or contention, about ſome point of Doctrine or Diſcipline, (which they have ſubſcribed unto) or about Adminiſtration of the Sacraments, or the form of Catechiſm, or Publick Prayers, and Benediction of Marriage; and will not yield to what the Claſſical Aſſembly ſhall determine, he ſhall preſently be ſuſpended from his charge p. 236and imployment, to be proceeded againſt at the next Provincial or National Synod. And if any Miniſter teach falſe Doctrine, and will not forbear after Admonition, he is to be depoſed: as alſo thoſe who are not obedient to the Admonitions of the Conſiſtory; or are convicted of Hereſie, Schiſm, or Rebellion againſt the Eccleſiaſtical Order ttIb. Ch. 1. Coacerning Miniſters and Paſtors. Art, 45.. As for thoſe who thruſt themſelves into the Miniſtry in Countries and Places where the Preaching of the Goſpel is already pure and lawfully eſtabliſhed, and will not deſiſt when they are warned of it; they are to be cut off quite, and proceeded againſt as the Synods judg fit: together with thoſe that follow and adhere to them, if after the like warning and exhortation given to them, they do not forbear and forſake them uuArtie. 55.. This Order and Diſcipline, we are told at the end of the Book, hath been reſolved and concluded in no leſs than 27. National Synods from 1559. to 1637. The places, the years, and the days of the Month being all there named. Now, what hath your prating Philagathus to ſay to this? Is this Perſecution, or hard uſage, or is it not? If it be not ſo in them, there p. 237is none among us. For we do no more than they do; and, if thoſe who are deprived for Rebellion againſt Eccleſiaſtical Order happen to be very poor, and fall into diſtreſs; we can help that no more than they.

N.C.

I am loath to condemn thoſe Churches.

C.

Then acquit us. Or if any liſt to condemn both, a great many more muſt fall into the ſame condemnation with us. Even at Frankfort in Queen Maries days, thoſe who diſſented from Mr. Horn, and Mr. Chambers, &c. found fault with them, for deſiring to be of their Church without ſubſcribing their Diſcipline: a thing ſaid they, which you your ſelves would never grant to others xxTroubles at Frankf. p. 85..

N. C.

Pray do not run ſo far back.

C.

I need not: for it is ſufficient to let you know, that you condemn your ſelves when you make all theſe complaints againſt us. You were very peremptorily reſolved heretofore, that the Magiſtrate might ſuffer none to inſtruct the people but ſuch as he thought fit. Who can deny it, ſaid a Writer yyApology for Mr. J. Goodwin. 1653.in the late Times to be a priviledge and duty of a Maſter of a Family to admit only ſuch p. 238to teach in his houſe as his Conſcience ſhall be ſatisfied in, and warrant him to receive? or, to come a little nearer, will the Churches diſtinguiſhed by the name of Independents and Anabaptiſts admit of any perſon wholly unknown, or known to be groſsly ignorant a ſcandalous, to teach in their Congregations, without their approbation and aſſent firſt obtained? If not (as it is preſumed they will not) let no man ſcruple, to allow th… thing to be the Right of the Magiſtrate a a publick Parent, in the diſpoſal of publick Places and Revenues to perſons to be approved by himſelf, or ſuch a he ſhall think meet, to be truſted therein, which is claimed as a right by every private Parent.

N. C.

We are not againſt this.

C.

Why do you complain then, as I you, not the King and thoſe he appoints, ſhould judg who are fit to be imployed in teaching his ſubjects.

N. C.

You know our Miniſters are fit enough, but they cannot conform … ſome Laws.

C.

Hath his Majeſty power to exact Laws for the better ordering of the Church, or no?

N. C.

I love not to be queſtioned about theſe matters.

p. 239C.

You did not ſtay to be askt the Queſtion heretofore, but declared the Magiſtrate not only might, but ought to eſtabliſh Eccleſiaſtical Laws, and more than that, compel men to obſerve them, or elſe be gonezzAnſwer to A. S. 1644. p. 12.

N. C.

That's too quick work.

C.

His Majeſty ſays ſo too: and bids you be gone only to your own homes; there you are free. But you were ſo in love with compulſion heretofore, that you called it the life and power of your Government. At leaſt, this was the ſenſe of a great number; Witneſs that Declaration of the Kingdom of Scotland, in which they complain, that Religion was not ſettled according to the Covenant, in life and power aaI find it in the Anſwer to it, and to the Commiſſ. upon the New Propoſ. 4 Jan. 1648 p. 7., i. e. as the complaint goes on; Liberty was granted for all ways of Worſhip, and it was ordained, that none ſhould be forced to the eſtabliſhment.

N. C.

Would it were ſo ordained now.

C.

That wiſh would have been better, when you had power to do what you deſire. But then you wiſht quite contrary; and indeed, ever thought it requiſite to good Government, that the people ſhould be tyed ſtrictly to the p. 240Laws, and puniſhed, according to their fault, if they tranſgreſſed. This was ſo far from cruelty, or hard uſage in your opinion, that it was thought uſeful and neceſſary, not only for the General good, but his particular benefit who ſuffered. Mr. Walter Travers bbAnſw. to a Supplicatory Epiſtle of G. T. p. 24., a perſon much eſteemed by your Fore-fathers, declared long ago, That if the Magiſtrates did not command and compel the people by ſeverity of Laws and Puniſhments to ſerve the Lord, what ignorant and ungodly perſwaſion ſoever they have to the contrary, they ſhall not only become guilty of not doing the duty God requires of them; but alſo no Chriſtian Eſtate or Policy could ſtand. For this would ſoon be every mans anſwer, in caſe of being enjoyned any thing concerning God or Men, how holy or juſt ſoever it were that did diſlike him, that his Conſcience is againſt it.

N. C.

I never heard of any good that hath been wrought on any by theſe puniſhments.

C.

But others have; as the ſame perſon tells you ccIb. p. 18.. For both many others are hereby kept in duty, that they do not in like ſort fall away; and who can p. 241tell what it may pleaſe God to work even in them hereafter by this means, w^ch have not yet profited by it? Sure I am, it hath done good to many in times paſt, who by this means have been recovered from their undutiful diſobedience, unto a godly Reformation. And what if it have not profited ſome, muſt the Medicine therefore be neglected ddSt. Aug. words Epiſt. 48., becauſe the Peſtilential Contagion of certain perſons is Incurable?

N. C.

No. But it is hard to conceive how ſuch ſevere courſes ſhould bring men back to the Church.

C.

You could underſtand it heretofore without any difficulty; and thought you could demonſtrate, that they were very powerful means eeModeſt defence of London Miniſters Letter to the Aſſembly, licenſed by Mr. Cranford. 1646. pag. 22, 23, 24.to bring in wandring ſouls. The reaſons you gave were theſe. Some wordly luſt, whether it be content or diſcontent, being uſually the ground of Hereſie or Sects, deprive men of that content which was the ground of their Error, and you ſtrike at it in the very root. Many adhere to a Party rather out of Policy than Conſcience, whom, when their deſign fails, you will ſee fall off like leaves in Autumn. It will eaſily appear then, how a Priſon, or other penalty (theſe are your words) may work upon a Sectary. Firſt, it will remove the Beam of Carnal Content which blinded his Eyes. Secondly, It may p. 242ſet Conſcience on work, as rough uſage did Joſeph's Brethrens. Thirdly, It may free a man from diſtractions and ſeducing company, that he may have leiſure and opportunity ſeriouſly to bethink himſelf of his grounds, &c. which thing by Gods gracious aſſiſtance may work a ſtrange alteration in him.

N. C.

Dimneſs of ſight can never be recovered by ſtripes.

C.

That's true. But yet he that ſhuts his own eyes, or blindfolds himſelf with his hand, may by Correction be made to open the one, or to take away the other. A ſharp Medicine alſo inſtilled into the Eye will remove this Pin and Web, better than all the faireſt ſpeeches and ſtrongeſt reaſons in the world. However, if Bedlam cannot reduce ſuch a one, yet it may reſtrain him from infecting others.

N. C.

You are very ſevere methinks, I did not think you had been ſtill of ſo harſh a ſpirit.

C.

I only repeat your own words, that you may ſee what your reaſonings were, when you came to ſettle a Government among us. For my part, I love clemency ſo much, that I think we may ſay of it, (in the words of one of your Writers in thoſe Times) as of fair weather, it is pity it ſhould do any harm. But if is do, it is a p. 243cruel pity ffMr. John Good win's Quaeries Queſtioned. 1653. pag. 13.. He hurts the good who ſpares the bad. Yet I delight in meekneſs and gentleneſs, and as I would have been glad to have ſeen more of it practiſed by them who moſt plead for it, ſo I would to ſee no need of any thing elſe to be uſed now. Nor ſhould the Magiſtrate, though he have ſo large a power, go to the utmoſt therof, but upon extream neceſſity. For his end being the ſame with our Saviours, not to deſtroy mens lives, but to ſave them, I ſuppoſe him to be the wiſeſt Magiſtrate who can moſt eaſily attain it, and govern the Church and State, with the leaſt puniſhments. For ſeverity of Laws is an Exprobration of the Magiſtrates want of care, in not preventing that extremity of offence which doth require them. All which conſidered, nothing ſeems to many wiſe and moderate men more conducing to your good and the Magiſtrates honour, than a due execution of thoſe Laws, you are now under; leſt by your wanton contempt and bold breach of them, you make it neceſſary they ſhould be changed for more rigorous: which God forbid. Why do you ſhake your head?

N. C.

To hear you talk on this faſhion.

C.

There are none of you but would ſay the ſame, were you in Authority. You would not leave men at liberty to do as they pleaſed: And though ſome particular perſons p. 244ſuffered that could not conform, you would ſay, it is better it ſhould be ſo, than the Publick Order be diſturbed; and that thoſe ſmall puniſhments would prevent greater; and that they were beholden to you for your ſtrictneſs, ſince without it they might grow ſo wild, that you ſhould be conſtrained to ſeverity. For you did not think it ſafe heretofore, ſo much as to connive at thoſe who would not be obedient to the eſtabliſhed Government and Diſcipline. That, as Mr. Caſe told the Lords, was next door to a Toleration. It is a Toleration in Figures, though not in words at length ggSermon before the Peers. March. 25. 1646.. Nor are the Independents of a different mind, who keep an Uniformity, when they have power in their hands, as we ſee in the Churches of New England; where they agree in their practices, though not in their Principle: Some being for that way of Church-Adminiſtrations, as it is called, by the Direction of particular Rules in Scripture, which ſeem to them very clear, but others, to whom thoſe Scriptures ſeem to be miſ-applied, conforming to it upon the more General Rules of Scripture, viz. of Charity and Chriſtian Peace. Which is according to a Maxime planted in the Nature of things (as we are told by one here, in a Preface to a Book of a New-England Teacher hhMr. James Noyes of Newbury in N. E. Temple Meaſured. 1647.) which do often act contrary to the Rule of their particular p. 245Nature, for the Conſervation of the Univerſe. And were we, ſaith he, as well grounded upon it as our Brethren of New-England be, we ſhould both the more prefer the Peace and Tranquillity of this Church (which is a General good) above our own private inereſt; and the leſs cenſure them, who upon the ſame Principle have ſometimes taken (and will doubtleſs have the wiſdom always to take) juſt Animadverſion upon them that cauſe Diviſions, and are diſturbers of the Churches peace; though they may haply plead their Conſcience, and transform themſelves into Angels of Light.

N. C.

Conſcience is a tender thing, and muſt be tenderly dealt withal.

C.

So Mrs. Hutchinſon ſaid, and yet they baniſhed her out of New England for all that.

N. C.

I thought they had had a great regard to Conſcience.

C.

The very ſame which his Majeſty hath here, who tells you juſt as the Court told her; Your Conſcience you may keep to your ſelf, but if you ſhall countenance and incourage thoſe that thus tranſgreſs the Law (a ſmall fault you think, who tranſgreſs it your ſelves) you muſt be called in Queſtion for it: and that is not for your Conſcience, but for your Practice iiProceeding of the Court holden at New-Town. 2 Octob. 1637. pag. 34..

N. C.

What Law do they tranſgreſs? The Law of God?

p. 246C.

That was her Queſtion; and this was their Anſwer, which may ſerve you. Yes, the Fifth Commandement, which commands us to honour Father and Mother, which includes all in Authority.

N. C.

There is not one example in Scripture to juſtifie ſuch puniſhments as thoſe, for difference in judgment.

C.

Still you will run on in your miſtake. You may hold your own judgment, (as they told her partakers when they alledged this) ſo as the Publick Peace be not troubled, or endangered by it; and no body will trouble you. For the King doth not challenge power over mens Conſciences; but when they do ſuch things as diſcover a corrupt Conſcience, it is his duty to uſe his Authority to reform both kkIb. pag. 28.. And if they complain of his ſeverity, and ſay, he uſes them hardly; they add a new fault to the former, and further indanger the Publick Peace, by eſtranging as much as in them lies, the hearts of the people from him.

N. C.

It would be better therefore, if ſuch Laws were never made, as occaſion people all this trouble.

C.

Now you run back again. Some Laws we muſt have; ſo, that if theſe be altered, others muſt come in their room. And though you may be better contented with them, yet others may as much diſlike them as you do p. 247theſe. And if their diſobedience be not puniſhed, it had been as well, or better, not to have puniſhed your diſobedience before; If it be, then the perſons are changed, but ſtill there will be ſufferers.

N. C.

It is very true. And, What would you have men do in this caſe?

C.

What? Be as patient as they can. For it is an excellent thing, as ſome body I remember ſpeaks, when men who cannot be active without ſinning, (as they judg) are paſſive without murmuring. Of this Chriſt and the Primitive Chriſtians have ſet us an example: and it is glorious in it ſelf, comfortable to thoſe in whom this virtue is, and the beſt way to thrive and proſper, and attain their end. The old N. C. being deprived, took this courſe, and neither thought it a juſt cauſe for a ſeparation from us, nor complained after this Scriblers manner, but quietly ſubmitted to the ſentence. Have you not ſeen the Proteſtation made by thoſe who were ſuſpended or deprived in the third of King James?

N. C.

No.

C.

I'le tell you then two or three Branches of it. We hold, ſay they llproteſtation of the Kings ſupremacy, &c. 160…. …anch. 8th.; that Kings by virtue of their Supremacy have power, yea alſo, that they ſtand bound by the Law of God, to make Laws Eccleſiaſtical, ſuch as ſhall tend to the good ordering of the Churches in p. 248their Dominions, and that the Churches ought not to be diſobedient to any of their Laws, &c. But in caſe the King ſhould command things contrary to the Word, they declare mmBranch. 9th.that they ought not to reſiſt him therein, but only peaceably to forbear obedience, and ſue unto him for grace and mercy; and where that cannot be obtained, meekly to ſubmit themſelves to the puniſhment. And further nnBranch. 11th., that he may by his Authority inflict as great puniſhments upon them for the neglect of his Eccleſiaſtical Laws, as upon any other ſubjects, &c.

N. C.

I wiſh however, that the puniſhments had been leſs—

C.

Or they more patient Chriſtians—

N. C.

For then we ſhould not have had theſe ſad complaints of ſufferings, hardſhips, and miſeries.

C.

And Perſecution—

N. C.

No, he will not call it ſo; though he confeſſes the N. C. in Scotland live in a hotter climate than we do here—

C.

We underſtand his phraſe very well, They are intolerably perſecuted, though you be not.

N. C.

He only ſays, ſuch ſeverity being uſed againſt them, as would make a mans heart to bleed ooP. 244. of his Book..

C.

Yes, if Fame may be truſted, (as he adds) which we know hath brought many a p. 249lye to him, and is as little to be truſted as himſelf. For you may be ſure of this, that they are better uſed a great deal, than they uſed others heretofore.

N. C.

Whence ſhall I have that aſſurance.

C.

From a little Book newly come forth there, and ſaid to be publiſhed by Order, where in anſwer to theſe complaints of Severity, I find theſe words ppmodeſt and free Conference between a C. and a N. C. …ant the preſent diſtemper… in Scotland. 1669. p. 11. and more you may read. p. 60.. I muſt ſo far juſtifie the rigour you have met withal, as to ſhew it is far ſhort of yours. The people are required to do nothing, but live peaceably and joyn in worſhip, whereas you made them ſwear to you. And the Miniſters are not made ſwear to maintain the preſent eſtabliſhment, (mark this) and to root out the contrary, as you did: they are only required to concurr in Diſcipline, and to promiſe ſubmiſſion to Epiſcopacy. A great peice of buſineſs! moſt grievous and ſevere Impoſitions! What will they conform unto, who cannot away with ſuch ſmall things as theſe? Muſt ſuch reaſonable Laws as theſe be changed, only to humour them? If they be not; then there is no help for it, they muſt be deprived. And if they are ſo far from ſubmitting to Epiſcopacy, that they ſet themſelves againſt the Government, they may with the greater reaſon be ſharply dealt withal; who are ſo fiery as to oppoſe that which is ſo innocent. But yet I can hear of no ſuch terrible proceedings p. 250againſt them, as this man talks of: For the fore-named Book tells us qqP. 32., whatſoever noiſe they make about Perſecution, it is more on the ſide of the C. than of the Nonconformiſts. For to an ingenuous ſpirit, it is a far greater trial, if he be not above ſuch things, to be aſperſed and railed at every where, and made the hatred of the people, than to ſuffer a little in the world. Which ſuffering alſo, I muſt tell you, though it may conduce in the end much to their good, yet it puts their Governours to a new trouble to inflict it, after they have been long troubled, nay, perſecuted by their perverſneſs and fierce oppoſitions. For tell me, I pray you, (they are the words of St. Auſtin rrAgainſt Creſconius quoted in this caſe long ago, … plain Declar. 1590. pag. 68.) when a man that is in a Phrenſie doth vex the Phyſician, and the Phyſician binds him; whether do both perſecute each other, or no? If that be not a Perſecution which is done to his diſeaſe, then certainly the Phyſician doth not perſecute the phrantick or mad-man, but he perſecutes the Phyſician. His Application is, that the Penal Laws of the Princes were as the Bands of the Phyſician to bind the phrenſie and furious out-rage of the Donatiſts: Who made ſuch a clatter there about their Perſecution, and grievous ſufferings, as this Philag. and others do among us. O, ſaid they, when any Law came forth againſt p. 251them, now your Biſhops have inflamed the Rulers to perſecute us. They have made them our Enemies, to deprive us of that liberty which Chriſt hath left us. We ought not to be compelled: our wills were made free, and you may not offer a force to them. And ſo they run on in long Declamations againſt the Catholick Church for uſing them ſo cruelly, for all the world, like this bawling Writer of yours: who I think, in my Conſcience, would have been more modeſt, if he had not been ſo gently uſed.

N. C.

Phy for ſhame!

C.

I know what I ſay; there is always leſs murmuring, and men are more thankful for the liberty which is allowed them, when Laws are ſtrictly and conſtantly executed. But now the Nation is filled, as he confeſſes, with clamours and noiſes of their great ſufferings and miſeries; which he repeats in a moſt doleful manner, I cannot tell how often. This he begins withal, p. 5, 6, 7. And again we meet with it, p. 79, 80. And thrice ssP. 149, 220, 229.more, before he comes to a tedious ſet diſcourſe about it, p. 231, &c. In which he makes their contempt a part of their ſuffering, (a thing which they pour on us far more than we on them) and Excommunication alſo, which is commonly for their obſtinate contempt of the Court; nay, the want of thoſe degrees in the Univerſity p. 252which they may have a mind unto, and of Dignities and Offices, are thrown in to make up the tale (though he pretends that he cares not to mention them) whereby we may ſee how ſorely they are hurt who have liſt and leiſure to think of ſuch things. And yet he hath not done with it neither, but we find him bemoaning their condition again ttP. 283.: as if like the poor Samaritan, they were ſtript of their rayment, wounded, and half dead. And once more in his Preface; and in how many other places I cannot tell: For to read the whole Book, is no leſs toil than to travail through long Deſarts a foot, without any company; which makes me loth to go thorough it again. It is to ſeek fruit in the Garden of Tantalus, to look for one leaf, that will give a man either profit or pleaſure.