Truth with Time, Answers · Answer 9
Anſwer to the eleventh Reaſon. I do not underſtand how you make it an argument againſt the pouring out of any of the Vials to be now; 1. Becauſe the Temple in ſo full purity, is not opened till after all the Vials; although the Tabernacle of the Teſtimony, Rev. 15.5. Now until it be opened, Rev. 11.19. no man is able to enter into it, Rev. 15.8. till the ſeven plagues of the ſeven Angels be fulfilled; which appears to be after the ſeven Vials, Rev. 16.17, 18. So that it hinders not but that the Vials may be begun.
Repl. I have ſhewed before, how I think the Anſwerer is in a double miſtake about Rev. 15.5. & 11.19. Firſt, in taking them apart, as if the Tabernacle, Chap. 15. ſhould be opened before the Vials are poured out; the other, viz. Chap. 11. not till afterward: whereas both places belong to one matter and time. 2. He takes that for the Tabernacle, which I take to be the Temple, Rev. 11.1. Whilſt the two Witneſſes propheſied in ſackcloth, they had a Temple: but the Teſtimony of the Tabernacle is not to be opened till after their riſing. Beſides, if Chriſt perſonally ſhall appear between the ſixth and ſeventh Vial, Rev. 16.15. and the thouſand years take their beginning immediately upon the Armageddon-battel; we muſt riſe higher for light, then to take it from the Temple or Tabernacle. And ſo much ſeems to be ſignified, by that Angel ſtanding in the ſun, Rev. 19.17. wherein will be fulfilled that prophecie, Iſa. 30.25, 26. And there ſhall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and ſtreams of waters, in the day of the great ſlaughter, when the towers fall. Moreover, the light of the moon ſhall be as the light of the ſun, and the light of the ſun ſhall be ſevenfold, &c. Though a man where he ſtands may ſee very much, yet being ſet up higher, as on a hill or mountain, (ſuppoſe as high as the ſun) he ſees a great deal more then he did before. True it is, no ſooner are the Witneſſes riſen, but the earth is enlightned, Rev. 18.1. by the Ark of the Teſtament, Rev. 11.19. and the Tabernacle of the Teſtimony opened in heaven, Chap. 11.5. But when the Sun of righteouſneſs ſhall ariſe with healing in his wings, Mal. 4.2. Saints then ſhall be higher then Temple or Tabernacle, Rev. 21.22. for their light ſhall be ſeven times more then before, as being rais'd to a higher pitch and degree of light and knowledge, then either the Prophets or Apoſtles had.
Anſw. 2. He ſaith, No man ſhall be able to enter in; but he doth not ſay, No man ſhall be able to go out. And in this he alludeth to Solomons Temple, wherein the Prieſts could not enter, 2 Chron. 7.2. they could not go in, but thoſe who were in could go out, 1 King. 7.10, 11. being ſo filled with the preſence and glory of the Lord, that they went out. So here, the Angels of the Vials ſhall go out, being ſo filled with the preſence, ſpirit, and glory of the Lord, that they will not be able to abide in. Though none go in, yet he ſaith not, None go out. So that I cannot ſee how this hinders, but the Vials may be begun.
Repl. I think you have laid down a very good Ground, by your diſtinction, to prove that the Vials are not begun. For, 1. If thoſe in the Temple muſt be filled with ſuch a preſence, ſpirit, and glory of the Lord, before they go out; I am ſtrongly perſwaded, that neither Waldo, Wickliff, Armachan, &c. were any of the Angels; nor the Swediſh or Britain Souldiers; nor yet is the Temple filled with ſuch a preſence. It is one thing to be in the Temple, and another thing to have it filled with this glory you ſpeak of. For ſuch a time will not be, neither is it to be expected, till the Antichriſtian darkneſs be more expell'd.
Should a man now make enquiry amongſt the choiceſt Saints concerning Temple-preſence, I know what they would ſay, (and not without cauſe) we have not the underſtanding of men, clouds and darkneſs are about us, we want the preſence and ſpirit of God; there is a death, darkneſs and deadneſs ſpread over all things, as, worſhip, ordinances, Scriptures, &c. Nevertheleſs, ſure I am, there is as much now of the preſence and ſpirit of God with his people, as any of thoſe ever had, who are ſaid to be the Angels of the firſt Vials. So then, if there be no coming out, until the Temple is filled with the preſence, ſpirit and glory of the Lord; we may conclude, Either none are come out; or if any are, they had not the preſence and Spirit of God; which the holy Ghoſt expreſſeth, Rev. 15.8.
2. As none are to come out of the Temple, until filled with the Spirit; ſo not until they are call'd, Rev. 16.1. The which Call, I do not take to be in following Providence; but more then ordinary, as the Prophets and Apoſtles were, by ſome immediate impulſe of ſpirit; the Lord making them now clearly to ſee, that their work and time is come: As I have ſaid before, A particular and ſpecial call, peculiar to this time of the Vials, as Mr. Tilling. ſaith, which hitherto no man had.
Anſw. 3. Whereas he ſaith, No man; we must obſerve the ſubject: he doth not ſay, No Angel; but, No man; which is a different dialect of the holy Ghost, and doubtleſs means ſome other, and not them that execute the Vials; for they are called Angels: and indeed, I think it refers to a more inferiour ſubject; and therefore cannot hinder, but that the Vials which are poured out by Angels (are more glorious inſtruments then common men) may begin.
Repl. 1. You have given me occaſion to declare my thoughts of the place. It is true, (as you ſay) he ſaith not No Angel, but No man; ſignifying thereby, when the Vial-time begins, what a moſt glorious Reformation there will be both of perſons and things: For ſuch ſhall be the light, judgement, zeal, and conſcience of Saints, as no man ſhall be admitted into the Temple: no carnal and formal Profeſſors, no corrupt Hypocrites; no ſuch Apoſtates as 2 Tim. 3.2, 3, 4. Now that ſhall be verified: Holineſs becometh thy houſe, Jehovah, to length of days, Pſal. 93.5. Hitherto (eſpecially ſince the great Apoſtacie) the vile with the precious have been in the Temple: Whilst men ſlept, the enemy came and ſowed tares among the wheat, Matth. 13.25. What through ignorance, partiality, covetouſneſs, ſelf-love, MAN hath entred into the Temple, moſt unworthy perſons have been taken into Church-fellowſhip: but now, no man is able, &c. it is ſo filled with ſmoak from the glory of the Lord, and from his power.
So then, the meaning is, upon the riſing of the Witneſſes, the Church draws to primitive perfection both for light and life. As the Tabernacle of the testimony ſhall be opened, that is, large diſcoveries of Goſpel-myſteries: ſo the Temple ſhall be ſhut, as no entrance for man: none but Angels ſhall go in and out. And though I am not of your opinion, that this refers to the bleſſed Jeruſalem-eſtate of the thouſand years; yet it is a fore-runner, and carries the character and likeneſs of that glorious time. Hence in part will be fulfilled Iſa. 35.8. & 48.2. Joel 3.17. Iſai. 26.2. 1 Cor. 6.9, 10. Pſal. 15.1, 2. & 24.3, 4. Iſai. 60.21. Rev. 21.27. & 22.15. Compare 1 Cor. 3.3. Are ye not carnal, and walk foreign; according to man?
Now whereas Mr. Tilling. opinion is, That Saints, before the Vials begin, ſhall not attain to that purity the Church of Christ enjoyed before the corruptions of Antichrist crept into it; I think otherwiſe; and the Scripture which he quotes, viz. Rev. 4.6. in my opinion is againſt him. For then (ſaith he, ſpeaking of the Primitive time) there was a ſea of glaſs clear as cryſtal: here is a ſea of glaſs, but not yet ſo clear as cryſtal. There is more in Rev. 15.2. then a ſea of glaſs: for it is added, mingled with fire. Now the reaſon why theſe words, mingled with fire, are left out in Chap. 4.6. it is, becauſe of the purity which the Church then was in, (as to Doctrine and Diſcipline) before the Apoſtacie of Antichriſt; and ſo the ſea of glaſs needed no mingling with fire. But the impure and filthy droſs of Antichriſt being crept into the Church, then indeed there was cauſe to have the ſea of glaſs mingled with fire, whereby to conſume and burn up not onelyonly the groſſer part of Popery, or the lees and dregs of that Religion; but the whole, great and ſmall: as the fire leaves no droſs or impurity in ſilver refin'd. So then, whereas the ſea of glaſs is ſaid to be mingled with fire, it is not to denote (as I conceive) any ſtrugling of the Saints with the Beast, nor hot jars and contentions among themſelves; but, that all the corrupt and rotten devices of the Beaſt ſhould be (as droſs in a furnace) utterly conſumed.
Object. It is ſaid, Till the ſeven plagues of the ſeven Angels were fulfilled. Then Man, afterward, is able to enter into the Temple.
I anſwer, The particular until is often taken for never, Gen. 8.7. & 28.15. 1 Sam. 15.3. 2 Sam. 6.23. Matth. 1.25. So here.
2. For your ſenſe of the place, (if I underſtand it) it makes a difference between Saints, as ſome ſuperiour, others inferiour. But I think all Saints, (ſo judged and known) as Angels, ſhall enter, &c. Neither will there be any ſuch difference amongſt the people of God after the Vials begin.
Anſw. And 4. No man as then without the Temple: yet 5. I think it refers to the bleſſed New-Jeruſalem-ſtate of 1000 years, Rev. 20, 21, & 22. which is not begun till after the ſeven plagues; and therefore till then, none can enter into it.
Repl. 1. Doubtleſs many who are without, when the Temple is firſt filled with the glory of the Lord, ſhall yet enter in, before the Vials are poured out. For the everlasting Goſpel is to be preach'd, upon the riſing of the Witneſſes, whereby many will be called out of Babylon, and other Gentiles from their idols and vanities, to the faith and obedience of the Goſpel.
2. For referring it to the New-Jeruſalem-ſtate, it ſeems to have no footing in the text: for the holy Ghoſt ſpeaks there of no New Temple or State; but directly of that Temple in which the ſeven Angels then were.
Beſides, in my opinion, ſo to take it, it's far below the ſtile of the holy Ghoſt. For, to ſay, The new-Jeruſalem-ſtate will not begin till after the ſeuen plagues; it's a truth indeed: but how? As if a traveller were told that his journeyings muſt be finiſhed, before he can be at home; or a Souldier, till the enemy be ſubdued, he is not to have the glory and honour of the Victory.
Anſw. 6. Should we concede to your Argument, the edge thereof would turn as much againſt your own opinion and apprehenſion; ſeeing none could enter in, as you grant, till the Temple were opened, Rev. 11.19. which is after the ſeventh Trumpet hath ſounded. The Scripture you quote, Rev. 15.5. being meant of the Tabernacle of the Teſtimony, whence the Vials go out indeed; but not out of this Temple, which is not opened till after all the ſeven plagues of the ſeven Angels be fulfilled, as that text expreſſeth in terminis.
Repl. 1. How the Reaſon ſhould be againſt my ſelf, I ſee not. Indeed my opinion is, that both places, (as I ſaid before) relate to one time, and take their beginning before the Vials: Neither is there any mention of a Tabernacle or Temple opened in heaven, after the Vials are poured out; though you ſay that text expreſſeth it in terminis. For Rev. 16.17, 18. (which you often quote) ſpeaks no ſuch thing, but that there came a great voice out of the Temple of heaven: not ſaid to be then opened, (as Rev. 11.19. & 15.5.) becauſe it was not opened at that time, but long before.
But 2. This is true, in Rev. 19.11. heaven is ſaid to be opened; which I take to be between the ſixth and ſeventh Vials, ſignifying a moſt glorious ſucceſs of the everlasting Goſpel; partly through the light which came from the Ark, Rev. 11.19. and the Tabernacle of the Testimony, chap. 15.5. opened before; and partly through the fall of the Weſtern Babylon, Chap. 18.
Anſw. So that neither by this, nor any of your former Reaſons, is my faith in the Vials begun, ſtirr'd or enervated; but rather ratified for the preſent, without I ſee more then I do: and am of Mr. Tilling. opinion, that the Vials are begun; and that for theſe Reaſons.
Repl. I know it was Mr. Tilling. opinion: ſo Brightman's, Pareus, Mede, and*Burton, Cotton. many others which I have ſeen: and it is (I think) the opinion of moſt men ſtill, whoſe learning and godlineſs I do willingly acknowledge, and do honour the very name of ſome of them; yet neither do I think them ſo learned, but they might erre; nor ſo godly, as in all things to be followed. This reverence every man ſtands bound to give to the graces of God in other men, That in his difference from them, he be not ſuddenly or eaſily perſwaded; but being jealous of his own heart, he undertake the examination of things, and ſo proceed with fear and trembling; and ſo having tryed all things, hold fast that which is good, 1 Theſ. 5.21. ſo ſhall he neither wrong the graces of God in himſelf nor in others. But on the other ſide, for a man ſo far to ſuffer his thoughts to be conjur'd into the Circle of any mortal man, or mans judgement, as either to fear to weigh what is offered to the contrary in the balance of the Sanctuary; or finding it to bear weight, to fear to give ſentence on the Lords ſide; yea, though it be againſt the common opinion of good men: this is to honour man above God, and to advance a throne above the throne of Chriſt, who is Lord and King for ever.
I muſt confeſs, to the glory of God, and mine own ſhame, that one Reaſon why I queſtioned not till of late, but that the Vials were begun, it was, becauſe I found ſuch an unanimous accord amongſt Expoſitors therein. Hence I made the leſs ſearch into the thing, there being no doubt made (among them) as to the truth of it. Now it is poſſible, my caſe here may be the caſe of other men.
Anſw. 1. Becauſe the two Witneſſes in their Sackcloth-condition, in the time of the 42 months, before their ſlaughter or riſe, pour out plagues, or ſmite with plagues, Rev. 11.5, 6. But the Vials are ſuch plagues, Rev. 15. Therefore, they pour out Vials.
2. Becauſe the very ſame ſubjects of the Witneſſes ſmiting with plagues, Rev. 11.5, 6. are the ſubjects of the Angels Vials, Rev. 16.1, 2, 3. viz. earth, waters turned into blood, and expreſſed by the holy Ghost in the very ſame phraſes.
Repl. We have anſwered this before: yet farther, thus: The places have no ſuch full agreement as is pretended. For, 1. in Rev. 11. waters there, are before earth: but in Chap. 16. there earth is before the waters. Neither do I think, but, according to the order ſet down, the Witneſſes did ſo, viz. ſmote the waters firſt in the days of their prophecie, prophetically.
2. The ſea, which is the ſubject of the ſecond Vial, Rev. 16.3. in Chap. 11. is not ſo much as named; which is very ſtrange, that the ſecond Vial ſhould be thus left, and yet all one thing, and in the very ſame phraſes.
3. How do they agree in phraſes? When the one onelyonly ſmites the earth, the other pours out a Vial on the earth. Doubtleſs, here lies a great difference, not ſo much in words, as matter, if well conſidered.
4. In Chap. 16.4. the Angel poured out his Vial upon the waters, and they became blood: but Chap. 11. the Witneſſes have power over the waters, to turn them into blood. It is not ſaid they ſmote the waters, or that the waters were turned into blood. What may be gathered, is one thing; but the phraſes are not alike.
5. If the places are ſo alike in phraſes, why are they made ſo unlike in expoſition? The first Vial is applied to Waldo, Wickliff, Luther, as ſmiting the Beast with their mouthes and pens: the ſecond and third, to Souldiers and Armies, and ſo killing men with their ſwords and guns.
Anſw. 3. Becauſe the Egyptian plagues alluded to, were begun by the two Witneſſes Moſes & Aaron, before the end of the Captivity or ſojourning in Egypt: and it is very evident, this hath ſuch an alluſion, Rev. 11.8. becauſe the holy Ghost calls this fourty and two months Egypt alſo.
Repl. If the Egyptian plagues by Moſes and Aaron (the two Witneſſes) were all poured out before the end of the captivity; then following the Alluſion, all the Vials ſhould be poured out whilſt the Witneſſes are in ſackcloth. And to ſaythe truth, to take it otherwiſe, it deſtroys the life and light of the Argument. For if the Vials begun before the riſing of the Witneſſes, then muſt they be all poured out before the end of the fourty and two months, as the ten plagues by the two Witneſſes Moſes and Aaron, were before the end of their Captivity or ſojourning in Egypt.
Thus you ſee, by dividing the Vials, as ſome to go before the riſing, and ſome after, is contrary to the Alluſion. For if ſome were, then were all: but taking it that none were, ſo there is (in my opinion) both reaſon and truth as to the Alluſion; viz. as Moſes and Aaron the two riſen Witneſſes (not in ſackcloth) neer or about the end of the four hundred and thirty years, plagued the Egyptians: ſo the forty and two months of the Beasts tyranny being going out, the Spirit of life from God ſhall enter into his Witneſſes, for the pouring out of the last plagues upon the Beasts dominion.
Anſw. 4. For that the remnant (I humbly conceive) are to ſtrike in, and not to begin; to ſucceed and follow, not to direct and lead; to execute, not to prepare: but your opinion makes 144000, or the remnant, to begin; and the two Witneſſes to fall in with them: which I ſee not.
Repl. Either you or I are here in ſome miſtake, both to the Remnant and Witneſſes. For, 1. I do not take the Remnant (as you do) to be the one hundred fourty and four thouſand; but (as I ſaid before) part of the womans ſeed, which never fled into the wilderneſs; againſt whom the dragon makes war, Rev. 12.17. and this, before the riſing of the Witneſſes; and ſo, in likelihood, refers to the wars in France, Holland, Germany, Britain, &c. 2. I take the one hundred fourty and four thouſand, and the riſen Witneſſes, to be all one. For, (as you ſaid well) it is a testimony or Witneſs (not perſons) that is ſlain; the which Testimony or Truth (that is, the glorious Cauſe and Intereſt of Chriſt) riſeth and lives again, by a ſpirit of life from God entered into the one hundred fourty and four thouſand.
Anſw. 5. For that all the hitherto-plagues upon the Beasts dominion, do ſignifie nothing, if they were not the matter of the Vials.
Repl. 1. The concluſion will not follow. For whilſt the Iſraelites were in Egypt, no doubt the Lord plagued the Egyptians at ſeveral times; yet they were none of the ten last plagues. To come nearer; when Abbeys and Monaſteries were put down in Hen. 8. his Reign, this was a plague upon the Beasts dominion, and ſignified ſomething. So hath he been plagued in France, Scotland, Bohemia, the Netherlands; yet reckoned no Vials. Beſides, what did the Goths, Hunnes, Vandals, &c. but pour out plagues upon the Beasts dominion?
2. That they are ſaid to be the last plagues, it clearly ſhews, that there were plagues upon the Beasts dominion before. For the diſtinction between former and later, muſt be underſtood of the Beasts dominion as the ſubject: that is, ſeveral plagues ſhould be poured upon it, before the ſeven last Plagues or Vials begin.
Anſw. 6. And lastly, the ſubjects of the Vials, Rev. 16.2, 3, 4, 5, &c. of the first, the ſecond, and the third, as the holy Ghost in Scripture opens them, have been under the very ſame wrath mentioned in the firſt, ſecond, and third Vials: ſo that I am much perſwaded that they are begun, by a Scripture-clearneſs.
Repl. That which firſt gave me occaſion to queſtion the beginning of the Vials, it was, that I could not ſee neither the ſubjects nor the effects of the Vials, as the holy Ghost opens them, Rev. 16. under the ſame wrath, as they are interpreted; neither the firſt, ſecond, nor third: there being nothing yet done, in my opinion, that carries the character of VIAL-WORK upon it.
1. That the earth ſhould be taken for the groſſer part of Popery, where do we finde in Scripture a ground to raiſe ſuch an Expoſition? 2. That the ſubject earth ſhould be univerſal, and yet in many places this groſs earth never mov'd, but to this day remains as much and as bad as ever. 3. That Waldo, Wickliff, Armachan, &c. ſhould be Vial-Angels, a thing no way ſutable to the deſcription of the holy Ghoſt, Rev. 15.
So again, for the ſecond and third Vials, I am not ſatisfied, as they are applied. Firſt, why the ſecond, to the Swediſh war in Germany; the third, to ours in Britain. Or, 2. (as others) why the ſecond to the Romiſh diſcipline or Hierarchy in England, Anno Dom. 1641. the third, to fall upon England, the Low-Countries, and France: I do not ſee Scripture-clearneſs for theſe things. Nor 3. do I underſtand what difference there is between the earth and ſea, as they are expounded: for I think the Romiſh Hierarchy, viz. Popes, Cardinals, Archbiſhops, Biſhops, Monks, Friers, &c. with all that rabble, root and branch, as groſs earthly ſuperſtitions, as their Maſs, their Croſſes, Purgatory, Penance, Pilgrimage, &c. And therefore, to make a diſtinction between Romiſh doctrine, and Romiſh diſcipline, as two diſtinct ſubjects, I am not of that opinion: but as they roſe together, ſo they ſhall fall together, inſeparably, under one and the ſame Vial. I confeſs, in things to come, as they are ſecret, ſo we cannot well judge whether men hit or miſs (in their opinions) till they come to paſs: But in things that are paſt, and ſo viſible, here we can ſay a little more, whether men ſpeak pertinently, and to purpoſe.
I thought to have forborn the Queries: but not knowing how it might be taken, I have ſet down the Anſwers to them.