Answer to a Popish Antichristian Catholic, Offer 3
The third Offer.
The Offerer.
Third. Shew mee good reaſon, why yee Proteſtants doo belieue our Catholique Church, enforming and telling you, this to bee the woord of God written, the true Bible and ſacred ſcriptures, and doo refuſe to credit hir, in the true ſenſe and vnderſtanding of the ſame Scripture: ſhee being vndoubtedly led with the ſpirite of God in them both. For if the Catholique Church had the ſpirit of God, in diſcerning and iudging the true Scriptures of God, from the reſt, not Scriptures: why ſhould not wee belieue that ſame Catholique church gouerned and led by the ſame ſpyrite, in giuing the true ſenſe, meaning and vnderſtanding of the Scriptures. When yee ſhalbe able to render a ſufficient reaſon of the one, and not of the other: I ſhall then yeelde and recant, and not before.
Crowley.
There is no reaſon, why wée ſhould ſhewe you good reaſon why wée doo that thing, which none of vsus either hauehave done, doo, or minde to doo. In beliuing that the Bible and ſcriptures that wee hauehave, is the true Bible and ſcripture: wée doo as the people of Sichar did. Iohn the fourth chapter. They ſaid to the woman that told them of Ieſus Iam non propter tuam orationem credimus, &c. Iohn. 4.Now doo wée belieue, not bicauſe of the tale that thou haſt told vsus: for wee our ſelues hauehave heard, and doo know, that this is very Chriſt, the ſauiour of the world. Euen ſo, wee confeſſe that when wee were amongſt you, wée heard you talke of a Bible, & ſcriptures, & wée were deſirous to ſée them: but you kept them from vsus, by all the meanes that you coulde deuiſe, but at the laſt (by Gods mercifull prouidence) wée gate a ſight of them, and had them tranſlated into ſuch languages as wee our ſelues doo vnderſtand. But this was full ſore againſt your willes (as by Hyſtories it dooth appeere.) Wee hauehave therefore no cauſe to thanke you for them, but wée doo giuegive moſt heartie & continuall thanks to our heauenly father, that hath prouided them for vsus, and hath giuen the vſe of them to vsus. Yea, and finding in the firſt chapter of S. Iames Epiſtle,Iacob. 1. that if any man lack wiſdome, hee muſt aſke it of God, who giueth to all men indifferently, and dooth not vpbrayde any man with his giftes: wée hauehave, and doo ſtill begge of God, his holy Spirite to direct vsus, both in the diſcerning of the Bookes of the Scriptures, and in the finding out of the true ſenſe of the ſame. And wee doo finde the ſaying of our Sauiour Chriſt, written by Saint Luke (chapter 11.) very true.Luc, 11. Si vos cum ſitis mali, nostis, &c. If you being euill, doo know how to giuegive good giftes to your children: how much more ſhall your heauenly Father giuegive the holy Spirite to them that craue it of him: wee hauehave craued that holy ſpirite, and doo ſtill craue it of our heauenly Father. Wee hauehave receyued it, and doo ſtill receiue it in ſome meaſure. Wée are thereby made able to iudge the ſpirits, and according to the counſell of S. Iohns firſt Epiſtle,1, Iohn, 4. and fourth chapter, Wée belieue not eueryevery ſpirite: but wée doo trie the ſpirites. And finding that the holy ſpirite of God did mooue them that firſt wrote the bookes of the Bible, to write as they did write: therefore wée doo thankfully receiue thoſe bookes as holy ſcripture, and doo reuerendly vſe them, as a Lanterne to our feete, and a light vntounto our pathes.
After this maner did the Catholique men that hauehave liued before vsus, endeuor to know the canonicall Scriptures, from ſuch as are pro hauehave. And as S. Auguſtine writeth vponupon the laſt Pſalme.Auguſt, in Pſalm. 150. Tom, 5. Tom. 8. Sunt etiam qui vniuerſas omnino ſcripturas canonicas, vnum librum vocent: quod valde mirabili & diuina vnitate concordent. There bée ſome men alſo (ſaith S. Auguſtine) that doo name all the canonicall ſcriptures but one booke: bicauſe they doo agree, in a very merueilous and heauenly vnity. S. Auguſtine in his ſecond booke of chriſtian Doctrine,Auguſt. de doct. Chriſt. lib. 2. Ca. 5. writeth thus, Cap. 8. Totus autem canon ſcripturarum, in quo iſtam conſiderationem verſandam dicimus, his libris continetur. In déede the whole canon of the Scriptures, wherein wee doo affirme this conſideration is to bee vſed, is conteined in theſe bookes. And then hée maketh reherſall of thoſe 44. bookes which are contained in that booke, which both you and wée doo call the holy Bible, concluding thus. His quadraginta quatuor libris, veteris testamenti terminatur authoritas. In theſe foure and forty bookes, is the authority of the olde teſtament ended. Then hée maketh reherſall of the bookes called the New teſtament, which are in number, 27. and they are the ſame that wee hauehave in our bookes called the New teſtaments, both in gréeke & in latine. Of al theſe bookes togither, which are in number. 71. S. Auſten writeth thus. In his omnibus libris, timentes Deum, & pietate manſueti: quaerunt volūtatem Dei. In all theſe bookes, they that feare God, & are by godlines made modeſt, doo ſéeke for the will & pleaſure of God. And in the beginning of this 8. chap. of this ſecond booke of chriſtian Doctrine, S. Auſten dooth inſtruct eueryevery chriſtian after this maner. Erit igitur diuinarum ſcripturarum ſolertiſsimus indagator, qui primo totas legerit, notaſ que habuerit, & ſi non dum intellectu, iam tamen lectione, duntaxat eas quae appellantur canonicae. He therefore ſhalbe the wiſeſt ſearcher of the holy ſcriptures, which will firſt read them through, and will hauehave a perfect knowledge of them, although not in vnderſtanding, as yet, but yet already in reading, thoſe ſcriptures onelyonly, which are called Canonicall. And going forward in this inſtruction hée ſaith thus: Jn Canonicis autem ſcripturis, Eccleſiarum catholicarum quam plurimum authoritatem ſequatur: inter quas ſane illae ſunt, quae Apoſtolicas ſedes habere, & Epiſtolas accipere meruerunt. Let him, as much as may bée, follow the authority of ye Catholike churches, in ye canonicall ſcriptures: amōgſt which churches, vndoubtedly thoſe churches are, which hauehave deſerued to hauehave Apoſtolical ſeates, & to receiue Epiſtles. By theſe woords of S. Auguſtine, it appeareth what was ment in S. Auguſtins time by theſe words, the Catholique church, & the canicall ſcriptures. The ſcriptures were called canonicall, that doo containe the rule of faith & of maners. And the churches were planted by the preaching of ye doctrine, amongſt which thoſe were accounted for ye chiefe that had bin planted by ye Apoſtles them ſelues, & had, had ſome one of ye Apoſtles reſiant amongſt them for a time, and therefore ye places were called Apoſtolicall ſeates. And theſe were the congregations that ye Apoſtle Paule did direct his Epiſtles vntounto. And heere I doo (by the way) note, that as Rome was Sedes Apostolicae, an Apoſtolike ſeate: ſo was Corinth, Galatia, Epheſſus, Coloſſa, Philippos, & Theſſalonica. Wherefore theſe later were of like authority with ye firſt. S. Auſten therefore addeth further, and ſaith thus. Tenebit igitur hunc modum in ſcripturis canonicis: vt eas quae ab omnibus accipiuntur Eccleſijs catholicis, praeponat eis quas quaedā non accipiunt. Let him therfore (that is a ſearcher of ye ſcriptures) kéepe this meeſure in the canonicall Scriptures: that hee prefer thoſe ſcriptures that be receiued of al Catholike churches, before thoſe ſcriptures which certaine Catholike churches doo not receiue.
By all theſe words of S. Auſten, written in the 8. chap. of his ſecond booke De christiana doctrina: it appeareth manifeſtly, that ye church of Rome, although it were then Catholique, & accounted ſo to be: yet it was not (as now you doo account it to be) the onelyonly Catholique church of Chriſt. For the other Churches which had bin Apoſtolike ſeates, & had receiued Epiſtles: were Catholique, as well as ye church of Rome was: yea, and that all thoſe churches were but particuler churches, and none of them vniuerſall, but members of that vniuerſall Church, which conſiſteth of all the particuler churches that are, hauehave bin, or ſhalbe vponupon earth.
Yea, and it appeareth, that ſome of thoſe Catholique churches did not receiue (as canonicall) all thoſe bookes yt are contained in the Bible: although they did in ſome ſorte account them canonicall, as containing rules neceſſary for maners, though not for faith.
In Tom. 4. Tom. 4.of S. Hieroms works, it appeareth, ye Ruffinus (a learned Prieſt, and ſuch a one as S. Hierome liked well of, liuing about 400. yéeres after, Chriſtes aſcention) did not alow for canonicall, mo bookes then theſe. In ye olde teſtament (ſaith hée) the fiue bookes of Moſes, that is Geneſis, Exodus, Leuiticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomium. After theſe Ieſus Naue, of the Iudges, togither with Ruth. After theſe, foure bookes of the raignes of kings, which the Hebrews doo account but two. Paralipomenon, which is called the booke of dayes, and two of Eſdras, which they doo receaue each by it ſelfe: and the booke of Heſter. And of the Prophets, Eſaie, Ieremie, Ezechiell, Daniell: biſides theſe, one booke of the xii. Prophets: Iob alſo, and the Pſalmes of Dauid, are each of them one booke. Salomon alſo, hath giuen vntounto the churches, thrée bookes: the Prouerbs, Eccleſiaſtes, and Cantica canticorum. In theſe bookes hauehave the fathers ſhut vp the number of the bookes of the old teſtamēt. And of the New teſtament, there are foure Goſpelles of Mathew, Marke, Luke, and Iohn. The Acts of the Apoſtles, which Luke dooth deſcribe. Fouretéene Epiſtles of Paule ye Apoſtle: of Peter the Apoſtle, two: of Iames the brother of ye Lord, & an Apoſtle, one Epiſtle: of Iudas one: of Iohn, thrée: and the Apocalyps of Iohn. Theſe bée the volumes which the fathers hauehave ſhut vp within the canon, & whereof ye father would that the aſſertions of our faith, ſhould conſiſt.
Notwithſtanding, it is néedefull to bée knowne, yt there be other bookes alſo, which are not canonicall, but our aunceſtors hauehave called them Eccleſiaſtical. That is to ſay, wiſdome, which is ſaid to bée Salomons. And another Wiſdome, which is ſaid to bée of the ſonne of Sirach: which is by the Latiniſts, named by the ſame generall name Eccleſiaſticus. By which name, not the author of ye booke, but the qualitie of the ſcripture is named. And of ye ſame Order is the booke of Tobias, & Iudith, and the bookes of Machabies. Thus far Ruffinus, in his creede or confeſſion of beliefe, ſet foorth by ſaint Hierome.
And not many liues after this, hée writeth thus. Theſe volumes hauehave the fathers deliuered vntounto vsus, which (as I hauehave ſaid) it hath ſéemed to mée, méete to note out: for ye inſtruction of ſuch as doo take vponupon them the firſt rudimēts of the church & of faith: that they may know out of what fountaines, the cups of the woord of God muſt bée drawne.
Now (M. Offerer) I pray you confer theſe words of Ruffinus, with that decrée that was made by your fathers of ye Tridentine councel, in their 4. Seſſion, wherein they allow for canonicall, all thoſe bookes, that hauehave bin & are cōtained in that booke which is cōmonly called ye Bible. With them the bookes of Tobias, Heſter, Iudith, Wiſdome, Eccleſiaſticus, & the two bookes of the Machabies, are of as great authoritie as the reſt: and they doo denounce accurſed all ſuch as doo not, or ſhall not, receiue for canonicall, all thoſe books and eueryevery part of them, making no diffrence betwixt theſe and the other which Ruffinus hath ſaid the fathers hauehave deliuered vntounto vsus, as fountaines, out of which the cups of the word of God muſt be drawn. Let your fathers therfore denounce accurſed, this Ruffinus and thoſe fathers yt he ſpeaketh of, for they be of one minde with vsus. Let them accurſſe S. Hierome, that hath ſet foorth this Créede of Ruffinus, as a ſound confeſſion of the Chriſtian faith. Let them excōmunicate S. Gregorie, Grego. Morali in 29. lib. Cap. 19. Hiero. in praefacio. prou.that in the 19. of his morall expoſition of the 29. Chapter of Iob, dooth confeſſe, that the firſt booke of the Machabies is not canonicall. Yea, let them accurſſe S. Hierome as black as a pot, for that in his preface to the prouerbes of Salomon he ſaith thus. The church dooth read the bookes of Iudith, Tobie, & the Machabies, for th'edification of the people: but not to confirme the authority of the doctrines of the Church. This Hierome, & ſuch other were the fathers ye Ruffinus ſaith, hauehave deliuered to vsus, the other bookes of the Bible, & not theſe, to bee fountaines for vsus to draw the cups of Gods word out of them. And with theſe, would wée rather bée accurſed, then bleſſed with your popiſh Catholique fathers, in your Tridentine counſell.
You frame an argument after this maner. If the Catholique church had the true ſpirite of God, in diſcerning & iudging the true ſcriptures of God from the reſt, not ſcriptures: why ſhould not we belieue ye ſame Catholike church gouerned & led by the ſame ſpirit, in giuing the true ſence, meaning, & vnderſtanding of the ſcriptures? To this I anſwere. That the romiſh Catholique church, which now is, & hath continued for the ſpace almoſt of a thouſand yéeres, is not, neither hath bin led by the true ſpirit of God, either in diſcerning or iudging the true ſcriptures of God from the reſt, &c. Nor yet in giuing the true ſence, &c: but it hath bin, and is ſtill led by the ſpirite of Antichriſt. And that neuer more apparantly then at the Tridentyne counſell, as by the canons of the ſame counſell dooth moſt manifeſtly appéere, to as many as with indifferent iudgement, can and will reade them.
Thus hauehave I ſhewed you ſufficient reaſons, whereby you might bée mooued to yeelde, and ioyne with vsus in religion, and no longer to depend vponupon the iudgement of that Antichriſtian church, which you call Catholique: for that you may ſée (if you bee not altogither blinded, that it is not the true ſpirite of God, that hath and dooth leade your Catholique church, but (in déede) the falſe ſpirite of Antichriſt.