Answer to a Popish Antichristian Catholic, Offer 2
The ſecond offer.
The Offerer.
Second, Chriſt his Catholique Church being on this wiſe planted by the Apoſtles and Diſciples of Chriſt, by Biſhops and Prieſts the ſucceſſors of them, had at all times a ſpeciall care and regarde, not onelyonly of preaching Gods word, but alſo of the preſeruation of the ſame woord and goſpell by writing of the ſacred Bible, and holy ſcriptures, and did diſcerne and iudge them from all other writings prophane or authentique of all ſortes. What Church hath had from time to time the cuſtodie of the ſacred ſcriptures, and moſt ſafely hath preſerued them for the neceſſarie foode of Gods people, and from the corruption of the aduerſaries, as well Iewes and Gentiles, as ſchiſmatikes and heretikes of all ſorts, but onelyonly the common knowne Catholiqu… Church of Chriſt? When therefore the learned Proteſtants, ſhalbe able to bring proofe to the contrarie, that their priuate conuenticles and Congregations, were the firſt bringers forth of this ſacred Bible and word of God written, the chiefe preſeruers and defenders of the ſame in all times and ages, from all Iewes, Gentiles, betikes and ſchiſmatikes: then will I, as I ſayd before, reuolt and recant.
Crowley.
In this his ſecond Offer, the Offerer vſeth a fallace or diſceit, which in reaſoning is called, Petitio principij, That is, hee laboureth to confirme his aſſertion, wherein there is no certenty, by that wherein there is, as litle or leſſe certenty) then in that aſſertion that hee holdeth. And yet hee ſetteth a face vponupon it, as though nothing were or could bee more certaine, then both the aſſertion, and that whereby hée would prooue it, bee.
His aſſertion is, that the Church of Rome (which he calleth Catholique) is and euer hath bin, from time to time the conſeruer and kéeper of the ſacred ſcriptures: and this hee would prooue by another like aſſertion, that is, that the ſame Church was the firſt Preacher and Writer of ye ſame ſcripture, which hée calleth the ſacred Bible and holy ſcriptures.
When the vnlearned Reader conſidereth this aſſertion: hée is brought into ſuch a maze, that hee knoweth not which way to take. For this Offerer would beare him in hand, that the ſacred Bible, which containeth thoſe bookes that are called the old Teſtament: were neuer written before ye church which he calleth Catholike did take in hād to write them. Where as in very déede, ſome of thoſe bookes were written, before the firſt foundation of Rome was layde. Yea, hee would that men ſhould thinke, that, that Romiſh Church which hée calleth Catholique: is the ſame that was firſt planted amongſt the Nations of the worlde, by the preaching of the goſpell amongſt them. Which preaching began at Hieruſalem, & ſprang from thence, as from a moſt plentifull Fountaine, and was by the labour and trauell of the Apoſtles and Diſciples of our ſauiour Chriſt, in preaching the goſpell ſpeedily ſpred ouer all the worlde. And that it was this Romiſh Church that did firſt wryte the Goſpels and other bookes of the new Teſtament, and hath diſcerned of thoſe bookes that are accounted for holy ſcripture, and hath ſeuered them from all other writinges, what ſo euer: and hath preſerued them from all corruption, &c.
But ſuch as bee learned doo know, that all the bookes of the old Teſtament (commonly called the Bible) were written before the Incarnation of our ſauiour Chriſt: and therefore, before any ſuch Church as this Offerer imagineth the Romiſh Catholique Church to bée, could hauehave any being. Our Sauiour him ſelfe hath ſayd, Iohn. 5. Iohn, 5.Scrutamini ſcripturas, &c. Serch the Scriptures: for you think to hauehave euerlaſting life in them. And thoſe ſcriptures bée they that doo giuegive teſtimonie of mee. And againe, the Euangeliſt Luke ſaith thus, Chapt. 24. Et incipiens a Moſe, Luc, 24.& omnibus Prophetis, &c. And beginning at Moſes, and all the Prophets: hee did interpret vntounto them all the ſcriptures which were written concerning him. Saint Peter alſo, ſaith thus. Act. 3. Act, 3.Et omnes Prophetae, a Samuele, &c. And all the Prophets, from Samuel forward, euen as many as hauehave ſpoken, hauehave made mention of theſe daies: yea, and ſaint Paule in that Epiſtle that hée directed to thoſe Romaines, that were the firſt Chriſtians in Rome:Rom, 15. wryteth thus. Quaecunque en…m ſcripta ſunt, &c. What ſo euer things hauehave bin ſetdowne in writing, hauehave bin written for our learning, that through patience and conſolation of the ſcriptures, wée might conceiue hope. And to Timoth. 2. Timoth. 3. 2. Timot. 3.Saint Paule ſaith thus, Omnis ſcriptura diuinitus inſpirata vtilis est, &c. Euerie ſcripture giuen dy diuine inſpiration, is profitable for teaching, for reproouing, for rebuking, for inſtructing, &c.
By all theſe places of ſcripture, it appeareth plainely, that the ſacred Bible was written before the Romiſh Catholique Church had hir beginning: and therefore coulde not bée firſt written by that Church, as this Offerer laboureth to perſwade that it was.
Yea, and the bookes of the new teſtament, were written by the Euangeliſts, and Apoſtles, and not by any ſuch Biſhops and Prieſts, as this Offerer would hauehave vsus think to bée the immediate ſucceſſors of the Apoſtles and Diſciples of our ſauiour Chriſt, and to bée the Biſhops & Prieſts of the City of Rome. For when ſaint Paule being in priſon at Rome, wrote his ſecond Epiſtle to Timothie: there were no ſuch Biſhops or Prieſtes there, as might worthyly bee taken for Chriſtians. For thus dooth S. Paule write, In prima mea defenſione, nemo mihi affuit, &c. In my firſt defence:2. Timot. 4. there was not one man that aſſiſted mee, but all men left mee alone, God graunt it bee not layde to their charge, &c.
If this Offerer & his fellowes, hauehave any eyes to ſée, they may ſée: that when the Apoſtle Paule (being in priſon in Rome) did write this Epiſtle to Timoth. the Biſhops and prieſts yt then were in Rome, were ſcarce worthy the name of Chriſtians, bicauſe they durſt not ſtand to ye profeſſion of Chriſtian Religion as S. Paule did, but left him all alone, betraying the Chriſtian cauſe, as much as in them lay.
Yea, and hereof it may bée probably gathered: that Peter was not then at Rome, and conſequently that hee was not Biſhop of Rome for the ſpace of xxv. yéeres togither, as the Romiſh Catholiques doo affirme that hee was. Yea, rather it may bée thought yt hee neuer was Biſhop of Rome: for this Epiſtle was written in Rome, the 13. yeere of the raigne of Nero, which was the 35. yeere after ſaint Paule was conuerted to Chriſt.
But if hee were then Biſhop of Rome, hée was at that time either fled from Rome, fearing the perſecution, or els being in that Citie, hée durſt not ſhew him ſelfe to bée of one minde with Paule, and ſo by his example, the reſt that then were Chriſtians in Rome, withdrew them ſelues from Paule, and left him all alone.
Thirteene yeeres before this, the Apoſtle Paule had written to the Romaines, being then at Corinth, in ye laſt yeere of the raigne of Claudius the Emperour. And as it appeareth in the firſt Chapter of that Epiſtle: the fame of that Church was ſuch at that time, that ſaint Paule wrote thus, Primum quidem gratias ago Deo meo, Rom. 1,per Ieſum Christum, pro omnibus vobis, quia fides vestra annuntiatur in vniuerſo mundo. Firſt of all, I giuegive thankes to my God, thorough Ieſus Chriſt, on the behalfe of you all: for that your faith is declared through out the whole world. The Church therefore, or Congregation of Chriſtians that then were in Rome, were of the beſt ſort of Chriſtians. And bicauſe that Citie was then the chiefe City that then was in the world: therefore the fame of their faith was ſpred ouer all the world. But yet (as appeareth by that which is before alleaged) they had their faults and infirmities, which were ſeene in them more at one time then at another. At the firſt, when they receiued ye doctrine of the goſpell, they were earneſt profeſſors and followers of the ſame (as commonly men hauehave bin in our daies, and are ſtill) but when perſecution began to ariſe for the profeſſing thereof: they began to ſhew them ſelues to bee like that ſeede that being ſowne, fell in ſtony ground, and yet being againe moyſtened with yt dew of Gods grace which fell from aboue, they tooke déepe roote, and ſo became more fruitfull in the ende. For many of that age gaue their liues for the teſtimony of the truth, and were Martirs or witneſſes of Ieſus Chriſt, as in the Church Hiſtories dooth appeere.
But that theſe were the writers of the Scriptures, appeareth not in any Hiſtories, for they were written before, ſome by the Prophets, and ſome by the Apoſtles: and ſuch bookes as were written after the time wherein the other Apoſtles liued, were written by the Apoſtle Iohn, which liued after all the reſt.
As touching the eſpeciall care that you ſay the Catholique Church hath from time to time had, not only of preaching the word, but alſo of preſeruing the ſame, &c: all learned Proteſtants doo know, that no man could hauehave greater care to preach the woord, to diſcerne the bookes of holy ſcripture, from prophane writings, and to preſerue them from the corruption of the aduerſaries, then they that in the time of the tenne firſt perſecutions, profeſſed the Catholique religion. And amongſt thoſe Catholiques: none were more forwarde therein, then were they, which then were dwelling in the City of Rome. But what maketh this for proofe, that the Romiſh Church hath alwaies bin, and is ſtill, the keeper and preſeruer of the ſcriptures? The firſt Romiſh Church (which was Catholique) preached the goſpell, as the Apoſtles and Diſciples of Chriſt had doone: but that Romiſh church that now is, and hath bin for the ſpace of theſe laſt thouſand yéeres (almoſt) being Antichriſtian, dooth, and hath all this while preached mens traditions, & is to bee noted with that ſaying that the Prophet Eſay vſed, in reprehending the Leuiticall Prieſtes of his time. Eſay. 29. Eſay, 29.Cited by our ſauiour Chriſt. Math. 15. Math. 15.Populus hic labijs me honorat, &c. This people honour mee with their lips, they draw nighe vntounto mée with their mouth, but their heart is farre from mée: In vaine doo they worſhip mée in teaching the doctrines and commaundements of men, &c.
The firſt Romiſh Church, vſed the Sacraments that Chriſt had inſtituted, religiouſly, and to that end that our ſauiour Chriſt had inſtituted them for: but that Romiſhe Church, which you call Catholique, hath for the ſpace of theſe 1000. yeeres almoſt, and dooth ſtill abuſe thoſe Sacraments, namely, Baptiſme, and the Supper of the Lord, commonly called the Sacrament of the body and blood of our ſauiour Chriſt. For that Church dooth miniſter that ſacrament to Churches, to Belles, and to Ships that ſaile on the ſeas: and of the other ſacrament they make an Idole, lifting it vp ouer their heads to bee worſhipped, ſetting it vponupon their high alter, or hanging it ouer the ſame, burning incenſe before it, and vſing ieſtures of diuine honour before it, and carying it abroade in pompous maner, compelling the people to doo diuine honour to it. Yea, they offer it vp to God as a ſacrifice for the ſinnes both of the quick & the dead: and in tempeſts of weather, and in coniurations, they make it a bug to feare the diuell withall.
The firſt Catholique Church, in their exerciſe of Religion, did vſe as few Ceremonies as might bee: for they knew that our ſauiour Chriſt had broken downe that midle walle or particion, which was the lawe of Ceremonies contayned in the lawe written, and had (through the fleſh) bin the occaſion that diſcord, whereby the nations of the worlde were ſo ſeuered from the people of Iſraell that they could neuer ioyne with them in one religion, till our ſauiour Chriſt had made it voyde, and made of both the peoples but one new man, making peace, that he might reconcile both in one body. And Ephe. 2. Ephe. 2.But your Romiſh Catholique Church, hath reedified a new middle walle or particion, of a law of Ceremonies, not contayned in the law written, but diuiſed by men. And that particion they doo ſtill maintaine and vphold, enforcing all men that will beare the name of Chriſt and bée called Chriſtians to allow of and to vſe thoſe Ceremonies: and all ſuch as doo refuſe thoſe Ceremonies, they doo excommunicate and deliuer to the ſecular powre to bée conſumed to aſhes with fire, or otherwiſe to bée tormented, onelyonly bicauſe they refuſe to vſe thoſe Ceremonies.
To bée briefe, the firſt Catholique church did acknowledge none to bée her vniuerſall head, but Chriſt I…ſus onelyonly, and ſhée ſubmitted her ſelfe to bee gouerned in matters of faith, by his ſpirite, which ſpirite did in déede gouerne hir in the vnderſtanding of the ſcriptures, which are the rule of Chriſtian Religion. And in ciuill gouernement, ſhee ſubmitted herſelfe to Princes, and other Potentats: acknowledging that God hath giuen vntounto them the power of the ſword, and hath made them his reuengers vponupon earth, cō maunding them to vſe that power in defending innocents, and in puniſhing of ſuch as doo tranſgreſſe his lawes. But your Romiſh Catholique church muſt hauehave a Pope to bee hir vniuerſall head, vnderunder the name of Chriſtes vicar generall, and hee muſt hauehave abſolute power vponupon earth, diriued from the Apoſtle Peter, that neuer tooke vponupon him ſelfe any ſuch power, but willed all Chriſtians to ſubmit themſelues to all eſtates of men, euen for the Lord Ieſus ſake. Yea, hee willed them to honour all men, to louelove brotherly fellowſhip, to feare God, and to honour the king. 1. Peter. 2. 1. Peter, 2.But your Pope muſt hauehave power ouer all men, euen ouer Princes, to whom Peter ſubmitted him ſelfe, and willed al chriſtians to doo the like. Yea, hée muſt hauehave power to depoſe all ſuch Princes as will not bow to him, and bee his Executioners, in executing the paines of death vponupon all ſuch as it pleaſeth him to take for Heretikes. Such Princes dooth your Pope take vponupon him to depoſe, & to depriue them of all princely dignitie, & to ſet vp in their place, ſuch as will ſubmit them ſelues vntounto him, & become his ſworne vaſſalles. And that he may ye more eaſily bring theſe things to paſſe: hée abſolueth all the ſubiects of ſuch Princes from their dutifull oth of obedience, which they hauehave dutifully taken to thoſe their leage and naturall Princes. Yea, & (as late and daily practiſes doo teach) they ſpare not to promiſe the kingdome of God to ſuch ſubiects as will moſt vndutifully, & moſt vnnaturally murder, not onelyonly their naturall countrimen, but alſo their naturall Princes.
By theſe differences, it apreareth how great the difference is betwixt the firſt Romiſh church (which was in déede Catholique) and yours, which you call catholique, but is in déede Cacolike.
But now you conclude, that if the learned Proteſtant can prooue, that the priuate conuenticles & congregations of the Proteſtants, were the firſt bringers foorth of the ſacred Bible and written woord of God, the chiefe preſeruers and defenders of the ſame, in all times and ages, from all Iewes, Gentiles, Heretikes and ſchiſmatiks: then you wil reuolt, and recant as you hauehave ſaide before.
To this I ſay (on the behalfe of the learned Proteſtant) that neither the Catholique church, nor any other congregations, hauehave bin the firſt bringers foorth of the ſacred Bible, &c. For thoſe bookes which are called the Bible, were brought foorth and written, before our ſauiour Chriſt ſayd thus to the Iewes. Scrutamini ſcripturas, &c. Ioh. 5. Ioh. 5.Serch the ſcriptures, &c. And as for the preſeruing and defending of them, from Iewes, Gentiles, &c. I ſay that it hath not bin the worke of man but of God him ſelfe, who is the only Author of the ſame.Apocal. 6. In the ſixt chapter of ſaint Iohns Reuelations, it is written, that when the third ſeale of that booke which was ſealed with ſeuen ſeales was opened: there was a voyce which came from the midſt of the foure beaſts, which ſaide to him that ſate vponupon the blacke horſe, & had a balaunce in his hand. Wine and oyle, ſee thou doo not hurt. In the iudgment of all learned interpreters, wine and oyle doo in that place ſignifie the ſcriptures which God would not ſuffer to bee hurt by any mans interpretation: no not in the time of moſt déepe Ignorance. The Iewes could neuer corrupt the text of the Canonicall ſcriptures: although they lacked no good will to hauehave corrupted them. Neither could your Popiſh catholiques at any time corrupt thoſe ſcripcures: for God hath reſerued a Remnant of the Iewes, with whom thoſe ſcriptures are (and alwaies hauehave bin) had in ſuch eſtimation, and reuerence, that they would neuer leaue them to any that would corrupt them, and this hath God wrought by them, vſing them as his inſtruments therein. In like manner, the Grecians hauehave bin his inſtruments, in kéeping the Gréeke text, both of the olde and newe teſtament, from all manner of Corruption, in all partes thereof that doo concerne any parte of the ſubſtance of our Religion: ſo that though your Popiſh Catholiques would (as no doubt they are willing enough) yet they can not corrupt either the Hebrew or Gréeke text.
Thus (if you will) you may ſée (maiſter Offerer) that God alone, by ſuch meanes as hée hath, dooth, and will vſe, hath bin the bringer foorth of the ſacred Bible, and other holy ſcriptures: for the holy men of God did ſpeake, as the holy ſpirite of God did mooue them to ſpeake. 2. Pet. 1. 2. Peter, 1.And it is hée that hath vſed his good meanes, both in diſcerning of the holy writings from the prophane: and alſo in preſeruing and defending of them, from all maner corruption. Wherefore, if you minde to bée as good as your woord: you muſt reuolt, and recant.