A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 19 (3 of 3)

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 19 (3 of 3)

p. CCLXAnd vvhere as he ſaith / that he which is aſſured off an inward calling, need not to doubte of his owtward: yow ſhould vnderſtand that the aſſurāce of the inward calling / depēdeth a great parte of the owtward. for allbeyt the ſprite of God worketh that aſſurance: yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgemēt of the elders / ād off the church / touching his aptnes for the miniſtrie: whileſte he conſidereth / that that calling is not the calling off men / but off God throwgh the miniſterie of men. Nether is there any one (excepe thoſe vvhichwhich are called extraordinaryly) vvhichwhich can hauehave aſſurance off any inward calling / but by the means off owtwarde. For if he were aſſured that God had called him / without the calling off men; he owght to obey his voice / althowgh men would p. CCLXInot call him. So that this not diſtinction / but ſeperation off the knowledge off an inward calling / from the owtward / is not onelyonly abſurde: but confirmeth the Anabaptiſtes / which boſte off an inward calling / where no calling off the church wente before.

That he addeth / yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called: is but a begging off the queſtion. For it being in queſtion whether eueryevery calling that any church vſeth / be lawfull / and ſeing the miniſter can not be aſſured off his owtward calling / oneles yt be lawfull: it followeth that he vvhichwhich preſumeth one / muſt needes preſume the other. Vppon Muſculus ſaying / that the thruſtinge off the miniſter vppon the church vvithout her election, dravveth bondage, &c. and the D affirming / that ſuche elections are meet for the church, vnderunder the chriſtian Magiſtrate: I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Chriſtian Magiſtrate / giuen off God not onelyonly to preſerue / but to encreaſe the churches libertie. To all vvhichwhich firſte the D. anſwereth / that he giueth nothing to the magiſtrate but which belongeth vntounto him, and that yt is the magiſtrates right to vſe that kinde of appoincting off miniſters, which he thincketh good: which is a groſſe begging off that in controuerſie.

Secondly he ſaith / that the paſtors had neuer better cauſe to obey their paſtors, neuer les cauſe to complaine off bondage, and cōſtraint, then nowe when the paſtors are choſen without the conſente off the churches: which as it is barely ſaied / hath no reaſon to leane vppon / is confuted by common ſenſe: ſo it is directly contrarie to that Muſculus his author / affirmeth in the wordes before alledged. OnelyOnly for the matter off libertie / he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church, conſiſteth in libertie of cōſcience, and freedome from falſe doctrine: wherunto I anſwer / that it conſiſteth in them / but not onelyonly. for to vſe aſſemblies for the miniſtring of the worde / and Sacramētes / &c. is a libertie of the church: And they are not myne / but Muſc. wordes: which calleth the election by the church / a libertie, and the other a bondage of the church. I imagine not the corrupt eſtate to be in the lawes, and goūernment off the Chriſtian magiſtrate: but contrariwiſe giuegive that vertue to his godly gouernment / that the eſtate off religion maie be eaſelie pure with him: vvhichwhich can be hardly / or not without great daunger / pure without him. Yow if not in wordes p. CCLXII/ yet in deede / make the gouernment off the chriſtian magiſtrate, alwaies fraught with dronkardes, Idolaters, whoremōgers / Atheiſtes / &c. pa. 176. & 178.which was not ſo before he entred: which is nothing els / then to make him Lorde of miſrule / and in ſteed of a nourſing father / a foſterer of ſynne: which is the iniurie I complaine off.

Where yow ſaie / that it is commendation vntounto the magiſtrate to correcte ſuch diſordered perſons: yow ſaie well / but ſmally to the pourpoſe / ſmally to your aduantage. For if the church hath by benefite of the Chriſtian magiſtrat / beſides her owne cenſures / his helpe off ciuill puniſhmentes for repreſſing ſynne: ſhe hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked thē be fore / maie be more eaſely diſcharged of thoſe vnprofitable burdens. I hauehave not therfore trāſferred the faultes off men vntounto the gouernement: but yow hauehave laied to my charge / that which your felfe faulte in / and I before confuted. The forme off election in the Apoſtles tyme, is not chaunged by the magiſtrates confirmacion. For beſide that that is properly no parte off the election / but a thing vvhichwhich followeth yt: this right off confirmacion of elections / was in the Apoſtles. times. And althoughe the practiſe was not generall / yet there being euen in in their times ſome Chriſtian magiſtrates / as appeareth by that which hath bene ſpoken: there can be ſmall doubte / but this forme off election had in certeine places / euen during the Apoſtles times / his approbation. If it had not / yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby: then the forme of preaching / and adminiſtring the Sacramentes / when the magiſtrate did not allowe of them / differeth from that which is nowe / when he mainteineth them. ſo appeareth that the magiſtrates cōfirmatiō / ſtandeth without breache of the Apoſtical forme of electiō: which he denieth.

Thes trifling queſtions here / albeit moſte vnworthy / yet are In the 4. diu. p. 163anſwered almoſte all before. And if there were a legion moe / they are not onelyonly confuted / in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magiſtrate / hath bene vſed more then …00. yeares together: but alſo by the D. owne wordes / wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleaſure / ſo to order yt ſtill. For if there were ſuch incōueniences / and abſurdities as he imagineth: how hath the practiſe continued ſo longe / bene thowght good by ſo p. CCLXIIImany good Emperours / and ſo many learned men in all thoſe ages? Or if all they were a ſleap / or of ſo ſhorte ſighte / that they could not ſee thes inconueniences / which the D. hath eſpied: how commeth yt to paſſe / that he leaueth yt in the magiſtrates pleaſure / to eſtabliſhe this order encombred with ſuche inconueniences, and abſurdities?

For the chalenges wherby he would giuegive to vnderſtand / that I hauehave not faithfully alledged Muſculus: the firſte is / that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vſed vvhere he vvas by this, that it approched to the election of the primatiue church, which he ſaith is vntrue. But the reaſon wherwith I confirme yt / that Muſcu. ſaithe yt vavs made not by one miniſter, but by al, by the voices of the Senate, vvhere ſome nomber off the people vvere: He toucheth not. The ſecond that I call the choiſe off the miniſter by the churche the Apoſtolicall forme: yet they are not my wordes / but Muſculus his authors / vvhichwhich calleth yt In the title of the Miniſt.the oulde, the fytteſte, the deuine, the Apoſtolicall, and lavvfull election.

Where he ſaith / that Muſculus dooth not call the other elections, forced: I woulde gladly knowe / what difference there is betwene forced, and thruſte vponupon. For Muſculus in the ſame tytle / maketh Obtrudi.all one a myniſter thruſte vppon the church / and a miniſter which is not choſen off the church / in thes wordes. The forme off election vſed in the Apoſtles times, is conformable to the libertie, and priuiledge off the church, vvherof Cyprian made mention: and that forme off choiſe, vvherby men began to be thruſt vppon the people off Chriſte being not choſen off yt, dooth agree to a church vvhichwhich is not free, but ſubiecte to bondage. Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Muſc. Iudgement be not wholy for vsus: yet the reaſons vvhichwhich he alleadgeth for this cauſe / are ſuche as can not be ſhaken. Now I will further ſhew / that as there is ſome diſagreement betwene ours / and his Iudgement: ſo there is further diſtance / betwene hym Titulo de Miniſtr. elect.and the D.

Firſt therfore he ſaithe / that as the election by the p. CCLXIIIIchurch endured vntill the time off Chriſtian magiſtrates: ſo the election made by the church / and confirmed by the chriſtian magiſtrate / endured vntill that time / that the biſhoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte / both from the Emperour / and the people their right in the election / tooke it all to him ſelfe. The D. denieth this ſtoutly. Secondarily Muſculus maketh the diſorders off electiōs by chuſinge vnmeete perſons / or by corruption throwghe giftes / or parciall fauour / to beginne then eſpecially: when the election taken from the people / cam into the biſhoppe of Rome / and his ſuffragans handes. The D. cleane contrary / that thes diſorders were eſpecially / in the elections by the people: and beſte auoided / when the election is called to the will / and becke off one biſhoppe. Thirdly Muſc. maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election / when yt is made of the prince: but maiſter D. ſaith / that yt is in the princes powre to make election off miniſters him ſelfe if he will / or committe yt to others iff he liſte. Fourthly Muſc. helpinge him ſelfe off the authoritie off Ierome / ſaith that there was no election in poperie: becawſe they were made without the knowledge off the people / and condemneth alſo the election of the biſhopes made by the Canons / for the ſame cauſe. But M. D. ſaith yt is a moſte conuenient / and ſufficient election: which notwithſtandinge in that poincte / is all one with the election in poperie. Laſt off all / wherin (lieth a great weight of this controuerſie) he dooth not ſaie ſimply / that this forme off choiſe by the church is vnmeete / and inconuenient for this age off he churche: but that it coulde not be by and by / and out of hand reſtored: and after a litle / that it could not be in al churches / by and by reſtored. Wherby he gyuethe to vnderſtand / that in ſome places yt might be forthwith reſtored: and in other / all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe / withall cōuenient ſpeed. So appeareth that although Muſculus be pretended: yet Pigghius / and Hoſius be his ſtorers.

Here cometh to ſhewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche / wheron the D. heareth hym ſelfe ſo much: vvhichwhich pag. 139. Bull. vpo 1. Tim. 4.1 Tim 4(as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth) is this. After he had ſhewed that in all lawfull miniſteries off the worde / there is required that with innocencie of life / he ſhoulde p. CCLXVbe learned / then choſen accordinge to the worde off God / thirdly after he is choſen / and preſented to the church / hauehave impoſition of handes: he addeth / Heruppon the Tigurine church, hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popiſhe biſhoppe, chuſeth off the learned, and off the miniſters, off the Senators, and off the councell off the 220. that is to ſaie off the common people: vvhichwhich out off the learnedeſt, and honeſteſt deacons, ſhould preſent certeine that are to bee made Biſhoppes, vntounto the Senate, and people. Off vvhichwhich vvhen the Senate, and people hauehave choſen one: they ſende him vntounto the church ouer vvhichwhich he is ſet, and vvith him a counſeiller vvhichwhich doth commend him vntounto his church. Then the cheifeſt off the biſhoppes off that citie, or other place vvhere this nevve biſhop muſte be, maketh a Sermon, and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe, layinge on his handes, commendeth the church vntounto him. Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cauſe / and openly fighting againſt the D. vppon that I hauehave before noted / of the election of the churches of Berne / I leaue to be conſidered.

ALthowghe the D. (as his vſe is) ſpeaketh off one thinge ſo Cap. 7. Diuiſ. 1. pag. 197.often / and that in the ſame diuiſion / and with ſpaces put betwene / ſo that yt is harde to giuegive anſwer with any conuenient vnderſtandinge off the reader: yet I will as well as I can / referre his ſcattered ſayinges to certeine heades. Wheroff the firſte is / that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe, and Titus, that the election belonged vntounto one man: Wheruppon he chargeth me / with willfull deprauinge off his anſwer. Yt muſte be therfore conſidered / if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe. The Adm. ſaithe / in the primitiue church no miniſter vvas placed in the congregation but by conſente off the people, but novve that authoritie is giuen to the biſhoppes handes alone: the D. anſwereth by the place off Timothe / and Titus. Now this beinge a commaundement / and by his iudgement both directed onelyonly to Tim. and Tit. and to them as biſhoppes: yt followeth that he hath taught p. CCLXVI/ that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they / and in them all biſhoppes / ſhoulde onelyonly chuſe. Wherby are condemned all election by the church / as thoſe which hauehave intruded vppon the biſhoppes poſſeſſion.

Where he ſaith / that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme, by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the biſhopp alone, &c. that the right off orderinge miniſters doth at no hand apperteine vntounto the biſhopp: I would knowe what word there is heere / where this coulor is to bee ſeene: ād what light he is able to giuegive vsus / to make yt appeare. The other ſentence wherwith he woulde proue yt / followeth after / nether was he come vntounto yt. Yf he did therfore confute that: it is as ſtraunge as iff a man ſhoulde ſhutte off / and ſpende his arrowes / or euer he come within the reach off his enemie. And I thinke there is no example off ſuche confutation / onles he had coupled that place with this / and comparinge them together / ſett vponupon them both at ones. beſide that it is Abſurde / that where the Adm. heere ſpake off the election: he anſwereth off admiſſion.

Here cometh to be conſidered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke / where (charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this pa. 796.place / he would hauehave in ſynuated / that the Adm. would hauehave the people chuſe onelyonly) to proue hym ſelfe giltles / he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is ſaid / Then the election vvas made by commen conſent off the vvhole church. To this anſwer I rep… lied / that it was his ouerſight / that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church / to be al one with the church which is the whole / cōteininge as well gouernours of the church / as the people, in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifeſt falſification. Why ſo? forſooth becauſe I lefte owte this worde whole: that is to ſaie / becauſe I ſpared hym / and kepte backe a peece of his folie / and that with diſaduantage off that which I pretended to proue. For the word church ſimply ſet downe / doth comprehended as well the gouernours / as the people: howe much more doth it comprehend them / when this worde whole is added? And if it were falſely concluded off him againſt the Adm. that they would hauehave the miniſters to be called / allowed / and placed off the people / becauſe p. CCLXVIIthey ſaide / that the election was made by commen conſent off the church: how much more is yt falſely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by conſente off the vvhole church? Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie / ſeemeth to hauehave loſte his commen ſenſe: yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the ſchole to ſome other place / iff peraduenture by ſome ſharper diſcipline / he might gather vpp him ſelfe againe.

In the ſame place alſo / vpō that I ſhewed that in proper ſpeach / the church / and people differed / hauing there declared that difference to be / in that the church is the whole / and the people a parte theroff▪ this complainer off falſificatiō ſaithe / that I ſeeme to ſeperate the people from the election of the miniſters, for that I will not hauehave the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people: which is manifeſtly againſte that I ſet downe. For I preciſely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church, vſed off the Admon. he woulde hauehave mainteined his falſe inſinuation againſte them / that the election ſhould perteine to the people onelyonly: conſideringe that the word church cited off him / was the vvhole: and the people one parte / and neceſſarily comprehended vnderunder it. This is not onelyonly falſifyinge / but flat facynge.

Nowe to retourne backe / I aſke what he needed twife in this diuiſion / in ſo many / and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge? ſeinge him ſelfe flatly affirmeth / aſmuch as I ſaie of him / and otherwiſe cā not mainteine his cauſe. The truth is / that he abſteined then from the wordes electinge, and onelyonly, bycauſe he ſawe he had nothinge to mainteine them: which nowe by my replie / he was driuen to put downe / or els to forſake his cawſe. Wherin as he diſſenteth from the trwth: ſo he is driuen to hauehave a newe combat with him ſelfe / in that he heere maketh yt indifferent / and at the diſcretion of the church in tyme of perſequution / to make elections ether by one / or by the multitude: which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes. Laſtly in time of Diuiſ. 6. pa. 183.perſequution when they hauehave no magiſtrate, they be all equall, nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe: none hath cheiff, and eſpeciall care p. CCLXVIIIouer the reſte, as magiſtrate to compell: wherfore yt can not be otherwiſe then, but that ſuch offices ſhould be choſen by common conſente. Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place / and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apoſtle: In diui. 2. pag. 156.becauſe they be Euangeliſtes vvhichwhich wee hauehave no vſe off / and for that I hauehave ſhewed / that they both are clearly of this Iudgement / that the miniſter owght to be choſen with conſent off the church: I will not much buſie my ſelfe with this matter. But althowgh the Apoſtles did ſend thes Euangeliſtes off their Embaſſages / to knowe howe the churches did / and ſuch lyke thinges as required no tariance / nor execution off any ſet miniſtrie in the churches wherunto they where ſent: yet that they euer ſet them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie / is not to be eſtemed. wheroff this is an apparant reaſon / that Timothe was not ſet ouer the church off Epheſus by Saint Paule onelyonly / ſeinge that Paule confeſſeth that he receiued impoſition off handes / 1. Tim. 4. 14.1 Tim 4:14by the elderſhip. Thother alſo here mentioned beinge Euangeliſtes / it is like the order vſed in one / was in thother. Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta, proue it. for he doth not ſaie / that he ordeined him: and if he had / yet it muſte be vnderſtanded / that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches / with conſente off the church.

And that this is not my iudgement / yt maie appeare by that I hauehave alledged owt off Caluine / and Muſculus / in the former booke / ād Bez. in this. nether could Bull. be thought to hauehave here Pa. 40. Diuiſ. 4. Pa. 135. Diuiſi. 2. pag. 156.ſuch meanīg / as the D. giueth him: that the Apoſtles alone ſhould ſett ouer the churches miniſters / as appeareth by that I hauehave alledged. So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vntounto him ſelffe: thes wordes that Paule / and Peter called certeine / can not be vnderſtanded off placinge them ouer any congregation / no further then being cheife in that action / they directed the iudgemēt of the churches. there remaineth zuinglius / which I meruaile the D. will charge me with / ſeinge he himſelffe will not ſtande to him / in the place which he hath alledged. For that which he hath lefte owt / off Mathias choſen by the vvhole church: is directly againſte that / which he hath in diuers places before affirmed.

After many vaine wordes againſte the replie vntounto the places p. CCLXIXoff Timothe / as that it is againſt thauthoritie off learned writers, againſt the whole courſe off the Epiſtell, againſte the circunſtance off the place: he alledgeth that the moſte off the preceptes conteined in that epiſtell, doo properly perteine vntounto Timothe, as he is a biſhop. Which is vntrwe / eſpecially in that ſenſe he taketh a biſhop / which the Apoſtels neuer knewe off: for there ſhalbe ſcarſe two ſentences found in the whole epiſtle / which agree not to eueryevery paſtor. And ſet aſide thoſe whiche cōcerne teachinge / there are very fewe not commen with him / vntounto an elder which onelyonly gouerneth. Beſide diuers belonging vntounto the whole church / as well as vntounto him: and ſome rather to other partes off the church / then vntounto him, yet iff the moſte ſhoulde properly belonge vntounto him: howe can he proue that the ſentence off not layinge one off handes raſhly / doth onele belonge vntounto him? he hath cyted many to proue that Saint Paule ſaith / yt doth belonge vntounto the biſhop, which is not denied: but that yt doth onelyonly belonge by this place off Saint Paule / which is denied / he hath not one. Nay diuers off his authors heere alledged / hauehave the contrarie off that he pretendeth to proue by them. For Bull. I hauehave ſaide. Calu. denyinge that ether Paule / or Timothe did any thinge in elections / withowt the conſent off the church / towching the bare ceremonie off layinge on the handes / he dowteth whether yt were doone by one / or many. And Ierome althowgh he ſaie / that the ordinacion belonged to the biſhop yet I hauehave ſhewed in the former booke / that he cōfeſſeth that that was by no order of God / or rule of the Apoſtles (by which he confeſſeth that the biſhopps were equall vntounto the reſte of the elders) but onelyonly by conſtitutiō off men. Therfore he is vntrwely cited / to confirme that by this place off the Apoſtell / the biſhoppe hath ether the election / or ordination vntounto him ſelffe.

As for Chryſoſtome / and Oecumenius / vntounto whome is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeted: I anſwer at ones / that yt ſemeth violent that the Apoſtle vſinge the worde elderſhipe / ſhoulde ſhutte forth thoſe / which were properly called elders. And where I alledged pag. 226. that Chriſoſtome ment not by thoſe wordes / to put a diſtinctiō betwene elders by age / and office: I was deceiued. The occaſion was / becauſe he doth ſo in the ſame epiſtle / where he had no more cauſe then heere: and not lokinge p. CCLXXvppon the the place when I wrote / I tooke one for another. But yt is to be noted / that their interpretation is directly againſte the D. for Chryſoſtome affirmeth / that the Biſhoppes off Actes 20. 28. VponUpon 1. Timo. 4:Acts 20:28Epheſus (which appeare to hauehave bene diuers in the Actes) did lay on their handes: and Beza / that all thoſe vvhichwhich had the myniſtrie off the vvorde, are meant by the vvord preſbitery: So that by their iudgement / one onelyonly did not ordeine, nor lay on handes: both which the D. affirmeth. As for the other ſentence off Chryſoſtome / with Theophilacte / althowgh Paule lefte vntounto Tite to doe thoſe thinges which were ioined with moſt honour: yt foloweth not / that he lefte them to be doone otherwiſe / then himſelfe did them.

But he doth to much abuſe his reader / which would make hym beleue that he drewe this from the godly writers / which he hath from profeſſed enemies off the trwth. For thes are the reaſons off Pighius / which to proue that the biſhopp onelyonly ſhould Li. 2. Hierar. eccle. ca. 3. & 9. & 5. li. ca. 10 & controuer. 16chooſe / and not the church / alledged thes twoo places off Tite / and Timothe which the Anſwerer hath. Thus the firſte reaſon off the D. with all the authorities wherwith he hath walled yt / is gone to the ground. for as for Ambroſe teſtimonie / yt maketh nether whot / nor kolde: no man dowteth but that Timothe owght to be circumſpecte, in ordeininge miniſters.

The ſecond reaſon is / that iff the election off a biſhop had off neceſſytie perteined vntounto the people: thē S. Paul would not hauehave writtē to Timothe of yt, but vntounto the churches as well as vntounto him. As though there were not many thinges in thoſe epiſtles / neceſſay for the churches to doo: or as though they inſcribed vntounto Titus / and Timothe / are not written for the inſtruction of the whole churche / euen in that very ſentence off impoſition off handes. For when Saint Paule tawght / that Timothe mighte not lay on his handes raſhly: he tawght the whole churches / that they ſhoulde not chuſe any raſhely. What is I beſech yow in Saint Lukes two bookes / dedicated vntounto Theopilus: which doth not aſwell perteine vntounto all ſortes off men in the church / as vntounto him? That the holy ghoſte therfore intituleth his bookes ſometimes vntounto particular perſons / was not that the Doctrine conteined in them / ſhoulde more p. CCLXXIperteine vntounto them / then vntounto others: but ether becauſe he woulde lifte vpp their heade aboue the reſte / or for ſome other particuler In the argument vponupon the epiſtles.circumſtance..

And in Maiſter Caluines iudgement / they were both written rather for inſtruction off other in the church / then for Timothe / and Titus. For there beinge great reſiſtance made vntounto thoſe younge men / off diuers in the churches off Epheſus / and Crete: the Apoſtle to ſupporte them againſte their aduerſaries / and to gird them with more authoritie / ſo intituled their epiſtles: that they mighte knowe that thoſe thinges they did / ād tawght / they nether did / nor taught of them ſelues / but by his cōmaundement. As therfore all thinges conteined in thes Epiſtles / were to be knowen off Timothe / and Titus: ſo were they all to be knowen off eueryevery one in thoſe churches. And as there are thinges in them / the exerciſe wheroff concerned Timothe / and Titus onelyonly: ſo there are other / the exerciſe wheroff / did at no hand apperteine to any off them.

As for the circumſtance off the place, which he ſaieth is againſt my replie: he ſheweth none. But there is a manifeſt circūſtance againſte him / which the Apoſtle by and by addeth / kepe they ſelfe pure, and communicate not vvith the faultes off other, as iff he 1. Tim. 5. 22.1 Tim 5:22ſhould ſaie / althowghe thow canſte not hinder the ordeining off inſufficient officers of the church: yet kepe they ſelfe pure. Moreouer if this writing vntounto Timothe alone / that he ſhould laie handes off none raſhely / ſhoulde giuegive him alone authoritie to ordeine / and electe paſtors: then yt ſhould followe / that not onelyonly the church / and elders off Epheſus / but the Biſhopes which were there together with Timothe / ſhould hauehave bene ſhutte owte. Act. 20.Acts 20which iff the D. dare not ſaie / beſide that this holde is gone: he muſte recante the ſole election / and ordination by Timothe.

Yow maie eaſely put me owte off dowbte, off: that which I neuer dowbted / and which I hauehave ſomewhere confeſſed: that by the ceremonie off layinge on off handes, the whole forme off orderinge is vnderſtanded. But off that yow ſhoulde proue / that in that place off Saint Paule it is ſo vnderſtanded (althowghe yt is not that / which can hurte our cauſe) yow bringe not ſo much / as maie induce p. CCLXXIIvntounto any the leaſte ſuſpiciō. Your reaſon that he did electe, becauſe he did appoincte: is to ſymple. For albeit to chuſe be to appointe: yet eueryevery one which appointeth / chooſeth not: no more then yt followeth / that becauſe eueryevery man liueth: therfore eueryevery thinge that liueth / is a man. And I woulde gladly vnderſtand / by what maiſters off our tounge yow can proue / that thes two wordes to appoincte / and to ordeine / differ. Iff they be all one / why ſeeke yow aduantage in the one / which you can not finde in the other? But if it be abſurde / to ſaie that ordeininge is nothinge els but to call, to chuſe, and to appoincte: yt is as abſurde / that to appoincte is nothinge els / but to call / to chuſe / and to ordeine.

I am well contente yow expounde the place vntounto Timothe, off puttinge on of handes / by that vntounto Titus, of appoincting towne by towne. For I dowbte not but that which the elderſhippe doth / or one in the name off the elderſhippe after the electiō / is therfore called appointinge / or ordeininge to the miniſterie / becauſe yt is a ſolemne inueſtinge / and puttinge him in poſſeſſion off that / wherunto he was before choſen. Althowghe Cal. be directly againſt him in this queſtion / whoſe iudgement is / that yt doth nether belonge vntounto the biſhoppe to chooſe him ſelfe alone / nor yet foreign. Chryſoſt. Oecume. Beza. Bulling. foreign VponUpon the fourth c. 1. Timot.to ordeine by him ſelfe alone: yet to helpe to ouerthrowe the right ſignification of Preſbytery / he is contente to folowe him / at the leſte dowting: leauinge ſo many bothe olde / and newe / which all take that worde for a companie off thoſe which gouerne the churche. And it is certeine that thoſe formes off nownes / are vſed to ſignifie ether a ſocietie: or els the place where a ſocietie meeteth. And Caluine him ſelffe interpretinge that place / where he had better occaſion to cōſider of it / ſemeth to hauehave retracted his iudgement: for thus he writeth. They vvhichwhich doo here take this vvord (preſbytery) for a novvne collectiue, and for the colledge of elders, in my iudgement thincke vvell. Althovvghe all thinges conſydered, I graunte an other ſenſe vvill not euill agree: that is, that yt be the name off the offyce.

Yff thoſe wordes as I appoincted the, be referred as yowr learned interpreters will hauehave them / by laying on off handes, and praier: they Tit. 1.Titus 1helpe yow nothinge. And therfore I will not ſtriue abowte yt. p. CCLXXIIIWhere yow ſaie / Muſculus meaninge is not much otherwiſe, meaninge therby to conclude / that he mente not to barr Timothe / and Titus off their ſole election: let his wordes then be iudge. Hauinge ſhewed howe Mathias / and the Deacons were choſen by the church: he ſaith / there is no doubte but the Apoſtles kepte that maner of ordeininge. and alledginge the example of the election Tit. elect▪ Miniſte… ▪off the 14. off the Actes / headdeth / therfore after faſtinge, and prayinge (vvhichwhich vvas vvonte to be doone, in the congregation off the faithfull) they ordeined elders, vvhichwhich vvere firſte choſen of the faithfull. And this forme off electinge, and ordeininge elders, and biſhoppes, the Apoſtle commended vntounto his fellovve vvorkman Titus, and Timothe ſayinge, for this cauſe I lefte the at Crete, &c. for vvho vvoulde beleue that he ordeined, that Titus ſhoulde doo othervviſe, then both he, and the reſt off the Apoſtles vvere accouſtomed to doo. And althowghe thes wordes declare ſo plainly / that Titus and Timothe choſe not them ſelues alone / but by conſente off the churches / as more fuller coulde hardly be deuiſed: yet to put all owt off dowbte / that he mente that Timothe / and Titus conformed themſelues to the examples off the Apoſtles / in the churches election ioined together with theirs: he doth immediatly add this concluſion. Therfore bothe by the example, and ordinance off the Apoſtle in the primitiue churche, elders, paſtors, biſhoppes, and Deacons vvere in the Eccleſiaſticall meetinges choſen off the people, by lifting vpp off handes. Where the reader maie conſyder what trwth he hath to loke for at the D. handes: which denieth thinges that hauehave ſo manifeſte / and ſo eaſie confutation.

And where he ſaith / that herin althowghe he hath lefte Caluin, yet he hath folowed the iudgement of other learned men: he maie ſee that he hath not lefte Caluin onelyonly / but Muſcul. Bulling. and Zuing. As for his learned men, I thinke verely that Pighius / Hoſius / and others off that ſtampe excepted / he is not hable to alledge one / to confirme that Titus / and Timothe had onelyonly the election off the miniſters. For thoſe alledged / to proue that Timothe / and Titus did ordeine / are nothinge to the purpoſe: conſidering no man denieth p. CCLXXIIIIthat: but that they ordeined alone / was to be ſhewed. And … he had ſhewed that they alone ordeined / which he ſhall neuer doo: yet is not the election off the people therby ſhut owte: forſomuche as election / and ordination are ſeuerall thinges.

What ether godlines / or honeſty is in him / which dare ſo bare faced denie / thinges ſo openly vntrwe: I will leaue to bee iudged Diuiſ. 2. Pa. 202.of that which is ſaide / towching that the election doth not belonge vntounto the biſhoppe alone / but vntounto the church. Here I will ſhewe that not ſo much as the ordination / can by the teſtimonie of thauncient fathers / or councelles agree vntounto one biſhop onelyonly: which is another poinct that he would hauehave the reader beleue / and therfore owght ether to hauehave ſhewed yt / or els to hauehave holdē his peace: ſeing none euer denied / that the biſhop hath to doo in the ordinacion. Firſte yt appeareth in Cyprian / that both in the prouince where he was / and in all other prouincs almoſt / the nexte 1. lib. 4. Epiſt.biſhopps off that place where ther was a miniſter to be choſen / came to ordeine hym whom the people choſe. The great councell off Nice / decreed that he ſhoulde be ordeined off all the biſhopps off the prouince / at the leaſte of three. Moreouer Auguſt. ſheweth / that when the Donatiſtes accuſed Cycilian / for that beinge cheife biſhop off the Prouince off Carthage / he waited not lib. cont. Donat. poſt. coll. cap. 5.to bee ordeined off the cheife biſhoppe off Numidia: the Catholikes did anſwer / that it was the couſtome of the Catholike church / that the biſhop of Num. ſhould not ordeine the biſhop of Carthage / but the biſhops which were next. And in an other place of the ſame booke / he ſheweth that yt was the couſtome that 12. biſhoppes ſhoulde be at the ordination off him / which was choſen biſhop / and paſtor off any church. Which appeareth in the ſame booke to hauehave bene obſerued / in the ordination off Cycilian.

And that yt may appeare / that this was by continuall conſente / and Harmonie off Councells decreed againſte the ordination by one biſhoppe: that one place off Theodoret iff there were no more / mighte ſuffice / where he ſaith / that Euagrius came to 1. lib. ca. 23.the office off a biſhoppe vnlawfully / becauſe onelyonly Paulinus ordeined him / contrary to the tenure off manie canons which prouided that they ſhoulde not be ordeined / but by all the biſhoppes off the prouince / or at the leaſte by three. Thus yt appeareth p. CCLXXVthat by all antiquitie / not onelyonly the election made by one biſhope alone / but the ordinacion alſo is flatly condemned / as vnlawfull / and contrarie to the couſtome of the Catholike churche / and olde Councelles▪ wherby is manifeſt how vaine yt is / which is cited owt off Caluin / and others / to proue that becauſe the Metrapolitane ordeined / therfore he ordeined alone.

Yow anſwer not to the differēce I ſhewe to hauehave bene / betwene your biſhop / and Ieromes▪ yow tell that I took my worde (onelyonly) owt off Illyricus / as yow did your worde off (excellinge) which is vntrw. For I gathered yt owt off Ieromes manifeſte wordes / which denieth that the biſhop differeth from an elder / but in ordinacion: not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are yow helped by the colledge election. Becauſe that ther is great difference / betwene the libertie which maie be vſed in Cyuill elections / and in Eccleſiaſticall / confirmed euen by placinge off biſhops with vsus / whoſe ordeiners are not alſo chooſers. I hauehave ſhewed how the election / and ordination are doone off diuers: and the next diuiſ. handleth that matter / nether is there any thing in yowr manifolde queſtions / to the contrary: then all which one onelyonly reaſon had bene a greate deale better. Nether forget I my ſelfe one whit / in that I alledged owt off the councells off Carthage / and Toledo: where the ordination is gyuen to the biſhops, but no worde that the election belongeth vntounto them. Howbeit becauſe I ſee yow hauing not to anſwer / ſeeke ſtartinge holes: I will not ſuffer yow to runne owte thether / nether will I make yr any queſtion betwene vsus / whether the biſhop maie both chuſe / and ordeyne▪ yt ſhall be enowgh for vsus / that he can not electe alone / and withowt the church / nor ordeine alone withowt other miniſters.

T. C. hath many ouerſyghtes, becauſe the D. doth not / or will not ſee / what he ſetteth downe. Yow had to proue that the election belongeth to the biſhoppe: to conclude that yow bringe / that he ordeined. Therunto I anſwered that yt followeth not / but rather the contrarie / that he ordeined / therfore he choſe not. I ſaide not ſymplye that the contrarie folowed / but rather the contrary. Your example of the vertues, is altogether vnlyke / they beinge ſo …ncked that he that hath one / hath al fowre: which is not in election p. CCLXXVI/ and ordination by your owne teſtimonie / confeſſing that the election may be the peoples / but not the ordination. The example off the foot, and hande, declareth manifeſtly that I reaſoned againſte that falſe concluſion off yours / which vppon that the biſhop did ordeine / woulde needes hauehave yt followe / that he alſo elected. Yow gett no aduantage in that the worde off election / is ſometimes taken for ordination / and cōtrariwiſe. For althowghe the wordes be confounded: yet the thinges remaine ſtill ſeperated. And if yow thinke that the right off election is gotten to the biſhop / becauſe in ſteed off ſaying the biſhop ordeined / yt is ſaide the biſhop choſe: it foloweth that when in ſteed of ſaying the people choſe / yt is ſaide the people ordeined / the people alſo gaine the right off ordinacion. And iff yow ſhoulde gaine yt / yet be yow neuer the nerer your pourpoſe / vnles yow be hable to ſhewe / that the biſhop alone / withowt the church did chuſe / or withowt the colledge off elders / ād other biſhops did ordeine. Therfore in makinge ſo great accompte off this / yowr hookie is greater then yowr harveſte.

Heere be vaine quarels againſte the quotacion / becauſe yt is Diuiſ. 3. pag 204.ſaide the gloſſe vppon the Act. and not the ordinarie gloſſe: all vvhichwhich retourne vppon Illyricus. Belyke to auoide the place vvhichwhich ſaith preciſely / that the people owghte to chuſe / vvherunto the D. anſwereth not a word: althowgh it be warranted by example off the Apoſtles / and directly to the cauſe / which is that the Biſhoppes ordination / owght not to ſhut owt the peothe peoples election. The D. vppon the coniunction diſiunctiue / ad Ruſt. momwoulde proue Ierome falſified. For that in ſo much as he ſaith / if ether the people, or the biſhop chooſe thee to be of the clergy, he woulde conclude / that the biſhope did chooſe withowt the people. But he ſhoulde remember / that if therby the biſhoppes election be eſtabliſhed / withowt the people: by the ſame reaſon the peoples election off the miniſter is eſtabliſhed / withowt the biſhoppe. If he dare not ſaie that / then let him vnderſtand / that I hauehave faithfully followed the meaninge off Ierome / and that this worde (or) is not alwaies a note off ſeparation. Which that it maie yet more clearly appeare / I will ſhewe the like manner off p. CCLXXVIIſpeach off Leo the firſte / whoſe wordes are, no reaſon ſuffreth that they ſhoulde be counted amongeſt the biſhopes, vvhichwhich Diſt. 62.are nether choſen of the clergy, nether deſyred of the people, nether conſecrated of the Metrapolitane vvith the conprouinciall biſhoppes. Here althowgh the biſhoppe vſe a diſiunctiue / as if it ſhoulde be ſufficient to hauehave any off thes / and not all together: yet yt appeareth both by the decrees off other (Which foundinge them ſelues off thoſe wordes / hauehave decreed that the people owght to chooſe with the clergie) and plainly by his wordes after / that he mente they ſhoulde all be ioyned together. For he addeth / vvhen the queſtion ſhall be to chooſe the cheife prieſte (whiche he called before the Biſhoppe) let hym be preferred vvhom the conſent off the clergie, and people ſhall require: and after ſheweth the reaſon / why the peoples conſent owght to be had.

I graunte that I tooke Muſculus wordes / for Ieromes: yet iff that make to the pourpoſe / I had redd the place. And Ierome Ierom. epiſtola ad Pam. aduerſ. error.himſelffe / in an other place / hath a ſentence not much vnlyke. For in a epiſtell againſte the biſhope off Ieruſalem / he reprocheth him that he diſpiſed the laitie deacons / and elders / for that he coulde in one howre as himſelfe boaſted / make a thowſande clearkes, wherby appeareth the corruption which Muſcu. ſpeaketh of / and which is nowe vſed with vsus / off makinge ſo manie at a clappe at the biſhopps pleaſure onelyonly / both the people / and the elders beinge neglected: to hauehave bene in thoſe times / and yet not to hauehave gotten ſuch footinge / nether to hauehave bene ſo vniuerſally doone / but that the biſhoppes which vſed that manner / were therby ſubiecte to ſhamfull reproch. And how cometh yt to paſſe / that yow ſend Muſculus here withoute all anſwer? Which dooth bothe flatly condemne all ſuch odinacions / which are made off the biſhoppe before election off the church and bringeth Ierome for his warrante / referring Ierome (which ſaith / there vvas no election off myniſters at all) vntounto that the biſhoppe did appoincte ad Nepo.vvhome he lifted / vvithowt the conſente off the church. As for the place yow cyte owte off that epiſtle: yt maketh not to pourpoſe. For it is not denied that the biſhope hath to dooe in the choiſe p. CCLXXVIIIoff the miniſter: but that he alone hath to doo.

How Cyprian is wholy oures in this cauſe / hath bene ſhewed: Diuiſ. 4. pa 205.this exception alſo is anſwered. onelyonly here it is to be added / that in the epiſtle owt of which the D. cyteth this exāple of Aurelius / yt is expreſſly ſaide / that Cyp. did not chuſe him reader of his owne autority / but by autority of his felow miniſters which were preſente at that time. That he ſaith heer / ād alledgeth after owt of Diuiſ. 2. pa. 212.Gratians gloſſe / that the peoples intereſte in elections, conſiſteth in bearinge wittnes off the good conuerſation of the miniſters: beſide that yt is a popiſhe ſhifte (as I hauehave ſhewed) ſufficiently before confuted / Diuiſ. 6. pa. 164.yt hath no grounde in the vvorde teſtimony, wherout he woulde pull yt. For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice: becauſe by giuinge it / they gaue alſo teſtimony what they the wght off him. Where it is to be noted / that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God / then S. Paul giueth to ſtraungers frō 1. Tim. 3. 7. Epi. 100.1 Tim 3:7yt / of whom he willeth that the biſhop ſhall hauehave a good report.

There followeth the open violence doone vntounto Auguſt. wordes. Where firſt let the reader obſerue againe / that this wreſting of the example of Eradius / againſt the election of the church / was taken from Pighius / as appeareth manifeſtly. But for anſwer Contr. 16vntounto Pigbius / and the D. it muſte be vnderſtanded / how for that election of Eradius to be biſhop after Auguſt. deceaſe / there were aſſembled two biſhopes beſides Auguſt. 6. Elders beſide Eradius / with the reſte of the clergie / and people. For what purpoſe all thes / if it were in Auguſtines powre to chooſe onelie? After yt appeareth that Auguſtine did call the people to hauehave there conſente / becauſe he had experience off trouble / and diſcontentement of the people off Millen: for that Seuerus the biſhop there / did appoincte his ſucceſſor before his death / withowte ſpeakinge any thinge theroff vntounto them: vvhichwhich could not be auoided off Auguſtine / if he mente to chuſe any againſte the will off the people. For yt had bene better for him to hauehave appoincted one as Seuer us did / vvithowte communicatinge the matter vntounto them: then in communicatinge yt / to take one againſte their willes. Againe where the D. vppon thoſe wordes I vvill hauehave Eradius my ſucceſſor, woulde hauehave that Auguſtine onelyonly had the election off him: he is cōfuted by and by after with his owne wordes / I ſaie that I vvill p. CCLXXIXhauehave him, becauſe I knovve that yovv vvill hauehave him. And after he vvilleth that the publike notories / ſhoulde as vvell note their voices, as his vvill in this matter: that (ſaith he) your conſentes fall not to the grounde, or become voide. Wherunto alſo pertaine / the ſubſcriptions of them which folowed. Which althowgh the D. ſaith are referred onelyonly vntounto the peticion off Auguſtine, to be diſcharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters: yet the wordes ſounde otherwiſe. For when he required their ſubſcription to thoſe Actes: yt is cleare that he muſte be vnderſtanded / to hauehave ſpoken off both thoſe matters. otherwiſe he woulde hauehave required ſubſcription to that Acte / and not vntounto the Actes.

And where in the ende for an other reaſon he addeth / Auguſtine was appointed biſhope, when Valerius biſhope off Hippo was a liue: I ſee not howe it maketh for him one word. For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it / he is vtterly deceiued: ſeing Poſſidonius Poſsidonius in the life of Augu. Epiſ. 225.writeth / that Valerius ſpake vntounto the people / to prouide / and to ordeine an elder off the cytie / and ſheweth how he was ordeined by the conſente off all the people. Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies / off this Epiſtle off Auguſt. yet yt mighte appeare by other / as where he declareth / that Pinianns was ordeined off the people / elder off the church / againſte his will. moe might be alleadged / but thes ſhall ſuffyſe. Sauinge that I muſte put Maiſter D. in remembrance / howe he merueilouſly forgetteth him ſelfe. For grauntinge me before / that Pag. 191.the councell off Carthage wherat Auguſtine was preſente / decreed that the election ſhoulde be made by the commen conſente off the people / clerkes / and biſhopes in the ſame prouince: he muſt heere needes confeſſe / that ether Auguſtine did there ioine together in election with the church / and the clergie (as they terme them): or that he brake the order off the Councell / which could not be vvithowt his fault / although the election off the church had bene (as the D. eſteemeth yt) but a thing indifferent. And the truth is / yt appeareth that Auguſt. had in that election / an expreſſe regard vntounto the decree off the councell: which cauſed him beſide the elderſhip off the church / and people / to ſend for two other biſhops / to be aſſiſtants. Wherupon the reader may ſee / how p. CCLXXXthere is no light off wordes ſo cleare / which Phighius / and the Anſ. miſled / will not giuegive th…nſer to darcken.

Beſides that Ambroſe calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church / which he could not onles yt were by the inſtitution off God: the whole diſcourſe off the Epiſtle teacheth / that the election off the people is there accounted off / as neceſſary. For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chuſing a biſhop / vvhen it vvas alſo infected vvith Heretickes: vvhy did not Amb. at leaſt by vvay off Lapſe, take the election vntounto him ſelf / but vvriteth vntounto them / reprehending them that they did not aſke for a biſhop / as other churches were vvont to doo?

Gregor. Nazienz. ſpeaking there off diuers elections / vvherin ſtill the people bore one part / and that withowt controlement: In the or. vponupon the death off his father.ſpeaketh more for that election in that one place / then the D. hath hitherto / or in the reſidue of his treatiſe is able to ſhew. And where he might ſeeme to hauehave ſomewhat nipped at it / in ſhewing how at certeine elections ſome off the people were contentious: he healeth that euen in the next ſentence to this / ſaying that at that time it was to be feared, leſt he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered, then their ovvne: and after maketh mention off the corruption off thoſe / which were fellow elders vvith his father. but obſerue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes / which expoūdeth the worde churches, the clergy. Where learned he thus to expound? Let it be that as in the ſcripture ſometime / ſo in the auncient fathers the elderſhip off a church / is called by the name off church: where can he euer ſhew that the elderſhip / or as he termeth it the clergy / of one onelyonly church / vvherof Greg. ſpeaketh / is called by the name off churches? In ſteed therfore that he ſhould hauehave tranſlated / both the richer, and they off great authority in the church, vvere cleane from that euill: he hath tranſlated / the churches that is to ſay the clergy, &c taking the nominatiue plurall / for the genitiue ſyngular. Which although in the latin toung / if one take not heed vntounto the ſenſe / may deceiue: yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke (which hath foreignoff the church) before him / as it ſeemeth by cyting the greeke in the ſame place / by and by after: ether he vnderſtood it not / or willingly p. CCLXXXIperuerted the meaning. So I leaue to the reader / whether I hauehave reaſoned to the pourpoſe, or no: and whether yow beſides wordes / hauehave any thing at all.

As in certeine other places / ſo in this / in ſteed off that I Diuiſ. 5. Pa 207.ſhould hauehave taken the quotacion which came after / I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before / was deceiued: and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates / ſet downe the 6. and 7. of Euſebius. This verely is the error which the D. maketh ſo great triumphes of. For the firſt off the places / it appeareth how Chryſoſt. Socr. 6. 2. ca.(there called Iohn / elder of the church of Antioche) was choſen biſhop of Conſtantinople by cōmē voice of all both people, and clergy: and how he had his election ratified / by the Emperour Arcadius. For the ſeuēth booke / yt appeareth that Chryſanthus Lib. 7. ca. 12.was choſen biſhop off Coſtantinople / by the people. And when as Sabbatius (becauſe Chryſanthus hid himſelf / and would hauehave none off the biſhopricke) gat certeine biſhops to ordeine him into yt: the ſtory ſheweth / how the people ſowght Chryſanthus owt / and put owt Sabbatius. diuers other exāples there be / which I leaue: as I would alſo hauehave doon thes / if it had not bene to hauehave ſhewed / the vaine triumphes off the D.

And where he ſaith / that there is nothing in thoſe 6. and 7. of Euſeb. which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people, but in one onelyonly, which he goeth about to wipe a way: that thow maieſt know the D. changeth not his ſkin / I will note them in a word. To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation / where he ſaith the election was Lib. 7. ca. 30.made by the miniſters, and paſtors: yt is manifeſt that the churches had to doo in the electiōs. For in the indorcemēt of the letters / wherby an other was appointed at Antioche / into Samoſatenus roume: as well autority off the churches is pretended / as off the biſhops / elders / and deacons. Where alſo he would clude the other place / firſte becauſe it was a miracle, then for that by the word brethren, it is not certeine whether the people were noted: for the firſt / Euſe. 6. 10yt may appeare how vaine yt is / ſeing the ſtory ſaith / the brethren came together to chuſe a biſhop. The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them / and after they were aſſembled / was to direct them in their election / and not to authoriſe them to p. CCLXXXIIchuſe. For autority they had before: els they would not hauehave come together for that purpoſe. As for the other / it is a boldnes too inſufferable / withowt ſhewing any one exāple / and contrary both vntounto the phraſe off the ſcripture / and aucient fathers / ſhewed in my former booke / and off Euſebius him ſelf / as may appeare pag. 88. Euſ 7. l. c. 11. & 24. Diuiſ. 6. pa. 209.diuers times in ſome one chapter.

In all thes ſentences / ſet downe owte of Euſeb. there is not a worde for the D. nor againſte vsus. The D. cōſeſſeth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely: he can not denie if he woulde / but that he tawght by the appointment off biſhoppes. Thes two beinge put / what followeth but that in thoſe daies / he was counted a laie man / which toke vppon him the miniſterie vppon the biſhoppes appoinctinge onelye? And that he abuſe not his reader with ſuch rouinge treatiſes / my reſon I will ſet downe in a fewe wordes. That appointement vntounto the miniſtrie / which was thowght not to inhable to be miniſter / was thowght inſufficient: but the appointement off the biſhops onelyonly / was thowght not to inhable to be miniſter (for Origene that had that appoinctement / and authoritie / vvas ſtill coumpted a laie man): therfore that authoritie onelyonly / was then thowght inſufficient. Euſebius therfore giuinge me this houlde / which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confeſſe▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I hauehave ſaide. For if the biſhops appointment off Origine to preach / did not gyue him any degree in the foreign. Ordinationē presbyterij non eſt aſ ſe quutus.miniſtrie for what cawſe did it not / except yt be it at I hauehave aſſigned? his trāſlatiō of Euſe. words / whē he was yet not ordeined miniſter (wherin another point off this matter ſtandeth) is not warrāted. For by this means / he muſt take one of his wordes / which properly ſignifieth the choiſe by lifting vp / and vſed ſometimes of ecceſiaſticall writers / for laying on of hands / for a degree: which hathe no example. Likewiſe he muſt take the other / vvhichwhich I hauehave ſhewed to ſignifie the company of all the gouernours off the church / for the office off one onelyonly elder: which wanteth proofe. Beſide that Muſcul. which tranſlateth yt / ſemeth to hauehave folowed the ſence I hauehave: where if he had folowed the D. he would hauehave doone otherwiſe. For in ſteed of he had not appoinctmēt of the elderſhip, he would hauehave ſaied the degree of an elder. Where p. CCLXXXIIIOrdinē pre…yteratus.he alledgeth / that Demetrius ſuffred hym to teach at Alexandria, when he was a laie man, belike therby to proue / that the reprehenſion of Demetrius / was not to be regarded / which did himſelfe that he found faulte with in other: yt maketh nothinge to this queſtion. For yt is enowghe to that in hande / that yt is confeſſed bothe by Demetrius / and Euſebius (Which taketh the defenſe off thoſe / whom Demetrius rebuked) that Origene was a laie man / althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde / by the Biſhops. Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place / is an other queſtion.

The nexte ſect. I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader. Of this Chap. 8. the 1. diui. pa 21.greate heape which foloweth / the moſte parte hauehave bene broughte before / ſome foure times at the leaſte: they hauehave bene threſſhed / and there is no yelde / it ſhalbe ſeen that the reſt / are no better then their fellowes. the places off ſcripture alledged heere / are all anſwered ſauing onelyonly that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hoſius: who vſeth this place / againſte the choiſe by the church. De Sacramento or dinis 54: cap.For anſwer wherunto I ſaie / that it is nor queſtion there off ſuch election / as wee ſpake off: that beinge the election off God / and not off the church. I for my parte rather thinke / that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes / or one off the prophetes: and for proofe alledge the ſtorie in the Crome. which may be cōmētary to this. For as the church thē in diſtreſſe / by publike praier / and 2 20 cap: 3. 13. 14. 15. verſ.faſte / receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet / whom the Lorde ſodenly in the myddeſte off the congregation / raiſed amongeſte them: euen ſo the church off Antioche beinge in great diſtreſſe / and feare off ruine off the church off God / partly by the ſworde / and famine / partly by contentions / and ſerchinge remedy by puhlike praier / and faſte: receiued by a Prophet which the lord ſtirred vpp amongeſte them this oracle / wherby he ſhewed them a ſingular meanes / not onelyonly to mainteine / but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Chriſte. If the S. will not receiue this interpretation / but take the holy goſt to hauehave ſounded immediatly from heauen: yet it helpeth him nothing / there was no place lefte for any election / but needes muſte Paule / and Bar. beſent.

Iff therfore the biſhop hauehave the ſpirite off prophecie at any time / wherby he may hauehave ſuch a certeine / and vnfallible direction p. CCLXXXIIII/ as this was / wee will les ſticke with him for his ſole election: Iff not / yt is in vaine to alledge this example: ſauinge that it maketh much againſte him. For if the lorde woulde hauehave the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors / and elders in that election vvhichwhich him ſelfe had made / and vvhere there was no daunger off error: howe much more owghte the biſhops election / which hath ſo manie bankes both off ignorance / and euill conſcience / to put him from the waie of a good election / be ſuſteined by the iudgement off others. And yt ys vntrwe that it is plaine, that the church was heere ſhut forth. For althowgh yt was nether in the miniſters powre / nor the peoples / to chaunge this election: yet the faſte there mentioned beinge generall / and the accoumpte off their embaſſage / and ſucceſſe therof beinge afterwarde made 14. Act. 27.Acts 27vntounto the churche: yt is not vnlike but in the approbation which that election coulde admit / the church alſo had her parte. That which is heere added owte off Beza / vvhichwhich the D. woulde hauehave ſo diligently noted: is but to vvaſte paper. For vvee holde that it is moſte conueniente / the people ſhoulde hauehave the miniſters / and elders goe before / and directe them in their elections. But yt is moſte directly againſte the D. For therby appeareth that Beza is off that minde / that althowgh the people be ignorant / and vntractable: yet they owght not to be cut of from eccleſiaſticall electiōs / but directed / and called to ſome moderation.

Off that which remaineth in this diuiſion / the canons called 2: Diuiſ. pag. 212.the Apoſtels / that off Antioche / Euſebius / and others which ſpeake off ordeining / make nothing to this queſtion which is off election: conſideringe that yt hath bene ſhewed / not onelyonly that ordinacion differeth from election: but alſo that the councells from time to time / hauehave confirmed the election by the churches. So that iff there hauehave bene any elections made by the Biſhopes alone: they hauehave bene directly contrary to the tenure of the councelles. In the councell off Nice (althowgh his boldnes be greater / then in the other canons) hauing chaunged the wordes off the councell / and in ſteede off ordinacion / put election: yet hath he no more warrant off the wordes off that canon / then off the others. And albeit the generall anſwer is more then ſufficient / to reſiſte ſuche naked aſſertions: yet euen in this councell / it p. CCLXXXVis manifeſtly to beſhewed / that that canō is to be vnderſtāded of ordinacion / as it is diſtinguiſhed from election. For in the letters which the Synode off Conſtantinople / wrote vntounto the councell holden at Rome / yt is thus written. Touching the care off the Theodo. li. 5. ca. 9.gouernement off eueryevery church, yovv knovv that the oulde decree, and appointement of the fathers off the Nicene councell, hath preuailed from time to time: that the inhabitants in eueryevery prouince, taking to them if they vvill, and if yt be profitable, thoſe vvhichwhich are next adioining, ſhould make the elections. According to the tenure vvherof vnderſtand yovv, that the reſidue of the churches vvith vsus, are gouerned. VVherupon vve hauehave in our generall councell, ſet our biſhopp off Conſtantinople Nectarius, in the ſight off the Emperour Theodoſius, and clergy off that citie, the vvhole citie giuing theyr voices therunto. And ſo goeth forward with the election off the biſhop off Antioche / and confirmacion off the biſhop off Ieruſalem. Where yt appeareth manifeſtly / not onelyonly that the ordinacion gyuen by that canon to the biſhop / did not ſhut owt the election off the people: but that yt implied neceſſarily / an election by the people / and clergy ioined with yt. For the Synode ſaith / that thoſe elections vvhichwhich vvere made by conſent of the church / vvere made according to the decree off the Nicene councell. And if it ſhould be as the D. pretendeth / that the councell off Nice ment to gyue the whole intereſt off election vntounto the biſhops / and to take yt from the church: then coulde not that councell hauehave ſaied / that Lib 2. Hiſtor. tripart. foreign. Diſt. 67.they made the Nicene councell the ſquire off their elections / when they admitted the ſuffrages off the people. And that there be no doubt heroff / I will ſet downe the wordes off the councell off Nice / which are theſe. Let the people chuſe, and the biſhop approue, and ſeale vp the election vvith them.

For Gratians diſtincions vvith his gloſſe: firſt them ſelues gyue me defenſe enough / againſt all the force wherwith they aſſaile this cauſe: as when he ſaith / that the other prieſtes vnderunder degree off a biſhop, may be ordeined off their ovvne biſhop, ſo that both the citiſens, and the reſt off the prieſtes gyue their p. CCLXXXVaſſent. And the gloſſe vponupon the ſecond canon off that diſtinction / ſaying / the Biſhop alone may gyue the degree vntounto prieſtes: addeth / alone that is to ſay, vvithovvt other biſhopps. Then I In catal. teſt. veritatis.coulde oppoſe the authoritie off Illyricus: which ſheweth plainly / that the wordes cited owt off the 63. diſtinction by the D. be a mere lie off Gratian. Howbeit I will not gyue ether Gratian / or his gloſſe that honour / as once to voucheſafe hym off any anſwer in the church of God. And that thow maieſt know good reader / what maner of man he was / of vvhom the D. plunged ſeeketh helpe / vvith commendation alſo of his interpretation / euen where it is condemned off proteſtantes writers off our time / as heere thow ſeeſt / and further ſhall appeare: I will in a word aduertiſe the.

That whether he vvere the brother off Lombard / tharchepiller of Antichriſtes ſeat / borne with a third brother of a ſtrompet (as they write vvhichwhich couer the ſhame of his birth) or Lombardes baſtard / conceined by a Nun / which by reuelation accompanied her ſelfe vvith Lombard: vvhether ſo euer I ſaie he vvere off thes / this is certeine / that in gatheringe the canons off the councelles / he endeuored by mighte / and maine / to make them agree vvith the Patrone off the adulterous church off Rome. Therfore in goynge aboute / to reconcile thee gouernemente off the elder churches off Chriſte / vvith that vpſtarte Synagogue off Antechriſte / as yt vvere to make accorde between the owle / and the rauen: there is no kinde of falſe dealinge / nether in addinge / changinge / dimyniſhinge / falſe interpretinge / nor other corruptions / and that contrarie to the cleare lighte off wordes / controrolmente off recordes extante to confute him / wherin he hath not caried awaie the bel of vnſhamfaſtnes / from all that euer wrote before him / or in his time. Off thes corruptions there are almoſte as many both vvitneſſes / and gath erers off our owne cotrey men / and of others: as hauehave at any time bene exerciſed in this fielde off confutation / off the popiſhe religion. As for his gloſſers / as the Popes hyred ſeruantes / ſuch as flattered for a cruſte off breade / ſayinge yea to his yea / and nay to his nay: they ſhall goe to gether with their maiſter. And let euen this place of the D. p. CCLXXXVIIbefor a ſey off the gloſſes impudencie / in expounding Leos wordes. For where Leo ſpeakinge of electiō / ſetteth forth the intereſte Tom 1. Concil. Epiſt. Leonis primi 82. & 90. Diuiſ. 2. pag. 264. Diuiſ. 4. pag. 205.of the churches with all thes wordes / that the miniſter ovvghte to be choſen by the conſente off the people, by the voices off the people, by their good vvilles, and that none be ordeined vvhichwhich they deſyre not, vvhichwhich they vviſhe not for, vvhichwhich they require not: all thes wordes this good gloſſe bringeth me vntounto this / that the people ſhoulde onelyonly gyue teſtimonie off his good behauiour, vvhichwhich is before confuted. And if he ſaie here that I deale not equally / which barre him off that authoritie that I hauehave ſometimes vſed my ſelfe▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine teſtimonie / and witnes off an enemie is glorious / and that I hauinge vvarre in thes queſtions off the diſcipline / not onelyonly vvith him / but with the Papiſtes / mighte with commendation ſtrike the… thinges with their owne ſworde / which he (hauinge herin the ſame cauſe vvhichwhich they hauehave) can not doo.

That which is gathered off Ambroſes election / owte off Theodorete / is moſte vntrwe▪ for yt is manifeſte / that Ambroſe was choſen by the whole church off Mylane / and neuer a vvord to proue / that the Byſhops had the righte off election: but the contrarye by the wordes / and circumſtances off the ſtorie. And wheras vppon the biſhoppes offer vntounto the Emperour to appointe one / the D. woulde make the intereſte of election / a runninge / and walkinge righte: firſte as the emperours gaue vntounto the biſhoppes / thinges vvhichwhich vvere vnmeete for them: ſo yt was no meruaile if the biſhops ſometimes offred vntounto the Emperours / Theod. lib. 4. ca. 5.that vvhichwhich perteined not vntounto them. Which may well appeare there by the anſwere off the good Emperour / which refuſed yt as a thinge vvhichwhich he had not to doo with / and vnmeete for him. Secondly yt is very like / that for the diuerſities of iudgementes vvhichwhich vvere emongeſte the people / the biſhoppes perceiuinge that they ſhoulde run into diſpleaſure off one off the parties / woulde hauehave bene glad to ſhifte off that euill will / and lay yt on the Emperour / which was better hable to beare it. laſt of all / they offred the Emperour that / which he willed them to doo: which vvhen yt was to ordeine onelyonly / as the iſſue declared / and not to p. CCLXXXVIIIchuſe / the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced / in that offer off the biſhops. As for Chryſoſtomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio, beſyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow / yow would alledge yt: yt is the ſame authoritie which Hoſius De Sacr. ordinis.alledgeth / and alledgeth in groſſe (as the D. doth) againſte the churches election.

To the D. firſte reaſon againſte the churches election / vvhichwhich ſtandeth in that there hauehave bene great contentions, and diuerſitie off Diuiſ. 3. pag 213.myndes amongeſte the churches: I anſwer / that the Apoſtles vvhen there fell a contention / and a iarr amongeſt thoſe off the church / neuer entred into any ſuch deliberation / off cuttinge awaye Act. 6.Acts 6the churches libertie: contrariwiſe they eſtemed the neareſte waie to heale vppe the breach / to gyue them ſome thinge more in that election off Deacons / then was ordinarie. For where they were accuſtomed to ſhew the way in other elections / and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People / there they ſuffring the church to goe before / folowed with their approbation. And not onelyonly in reſpecte off that election / but if a man will conſider the vvhole eſtate off the primatiue church in the Apoſtles time: it ſhall appeare plainly / that if there were euer good cauſe / to take away the churches election throwgh contentions / and diuerſities off mindes / that was in the Apoſtles times. For the churches off God then / almoſte throwghowt the world ſtandinge of Iewes / and gentils / and there beinge ſuch a naturall hate betweene thoſe two peoples / as vvhatſoeuer the one woulde / the other commenly vvoulde not / and contrarywiſe: if the Apoſtles had iudged that for reaſon / vvhichwhich the D. eſtemeth highe vviſdome: they ſhoulde neuer hauehave permitted any election vntounto the churches. For albeit the knittinge off both thoſe peoples into one profeſſion off the goſpell / did mortefy that deadly hatred / which was naturally in thē: yet notwithſtandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the ſcripture / that there vvere ſuch remnantes Act. 15. 24. Rom. 14. 15. Epheſ. 2Acts 15:24Rom 14:15Eph 2off that hatred lefte / that nether the Apoſtles them ſelues which were ſo vviſe peace makers / and ſo kunninge tiers off louelove knotes / nor yet the miniſters / and elders which had receiued the firſte fruictes off the ſpirite off God / coulde kepe them from moſte daungerous contencions. And Maiſter Zuinglius off vvhom p. CCLXXXIXthe D. woulde ſeeme to receiue ſome ſuccour in this cauſe / euen when their churches were moſte dangerouſly infected with Anabaptiſtry / Eccleſiaſtes.and many nouriſhed it in wardly vvhichwhich durſte not vtter it openly: teacheth that this forme off choiſe by the churche / was to be kepte. Nether is it to bee paſſed by / that Baſil noteth Baſill. Epiſt. 58.that one Anthimus / in chooſinge a biſhop withowt the churches voices / filled all Armenia vvith ſedition. Whervnto add the teſtimonie off Chryſoſtome: where he aſkinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Diſciples, anſwereth / leſte the VponUpon Act. 1…Acts 1matter ſhoulde be tourned into a bravvle, and hauehave fallen to a contention. When he aſſigneth the cauſe off contention (cleane contrarie to the D.) that the election was not communicated with the church.

Secondarily iff the churches elections ſhoulde be taken awaie / becauſe off cōtentions which happen in them: Monarchies which oft hauehave declyned into tyrānie / and bene abuſed to oppreſſion off the ſubiectes / ſhoulde hauehave had an ende long a goe: and other ſuch moſte lawfull / and neceſſarie aides off this preſent life / owghte to be taken awaie / as thoſe which are abuſed. And to come to eccleſiaſticall affaires / councelles by the D. reaſon owght to hauehave no place in the churches off Chriſte / off which it is ſaide / Nazianz. Ep. 42. ad Procop. Baſ. 102. Epiſt.that there was neuer ſeen good iſſue of them: and that throwgh merueilous ambition / and deſyre off contention in them / thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied, but made vvorſe.

Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether / beſide that they are in parte not off the churche with yt ſelfe / but off the church with hererickes / which is her commendation / as in the election off Ambroſe: beſide that alſo it is noted ſpecially / that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous / and ſtirring nature / and therfore vniuſtly obiected againſte the whole eſtate of the church: beſide this I ſaie / thes examples alledged by the Anſw. are ſo farre from weakeninge the churches election / that they make yt ſtronger. For notwithſtandinge thoſe contentions had / vnderunder bothe Chriſtian magiſtrates / and Biſhops: there was not onelyonly no counſeill taken / to barre the churches off their election: but were (as hath bene ſhewed) p. CCXCcouncells from time to time / to ratifie yt. And if the Emperours / and Biſhops had not thowght yt neceſſary / that the churches ſhoulde hauehave intereſte in their elections / or had thowght (as the D.) that bothe the churches were put in haſarde of falſe teachers / and the commenwealth off vprores / by reaſon off popular elections: yt had bene greate folie / or madnes rather / to hauehave ſuffred that which they mighte hauehave ſo eaſelie remedied. Which opinion off the neceſſitie off the churches intereſt / as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged: ſo maie it clearly be ſeene / in the letters off the good Emperour Conſtantine / to the Cytiſens off Nicomedia. which althowghe they had choſen to his great greife / Theodo. li. 1. c. 19.one Euſebius Biſhop: dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them / but moueth to a newe. And albeit they had abuſed their righte / in chuſing ſuch a one as was an Arian / a runnigate from his former biſhoppricke / a railer of the Emperour: yet he confeſſeth ſtill / that yt belonged vntounto them / to make a hewe election.

Fourthly / what will he ſay to that / that the people bridled the rage of the ſcribes / and phariſes againſte the truth / and miniſters Math. 21. 26. Act. 5. 26. Sozo. li. 7 ca. 7. Theodo. li. 2. ca. 7.Matt 21:26Acts 5:26theroff / in that they were a fraide off them? that the Biſhop off the church being an Arrian / the people hauehave bene for the moſt parte Catholike? That alſo the Emperour hath diſplaced the catholike biſhop / choſen by the church / ād placed an Arian? Which diſorders beinge often cōmitted by the Biſhops / maie by the D. rule / as well depriue them of their intereſte in ordering / and confirming / as the people in choſing. What alſo that the euill diſpoſition off the people / hath for the moſte parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours? So that people diuers times good / when the rulers were naughte / hath bene ſeldome naughte / whē their gouernours were good. beſides all this / there are other faultes off Symonie / off choiſe off moſte diſſolute / and moſt vnlearned miniſters / wherwith the ſole election off the biſhops is ſo infamous / and the churches election ſcarſly to be touched with: that many contentions off the people / woulde drawe les blould off the churche / then the choiſe onelyonly off one ſuche blinde / and lame miniſter / as many off the aſſemblies off the biſhoppes for that purpoſe / ſende forthe by whole armies.

p. CCXCILaſte all / as in other reaſons before I hauehave ſhewed / that the D. defendinge the ſame cauſe which the Papiſtes / vſeth the very ſelfe ſame armour / bourniſhed by the names off Zuinglius / Inſti. lib. 4. c. 5. ſe. 2. 3.Caluin / Beza / &c. ſo here he hath the very ſelfe ſame reaſon / which the Papiſtes vſed for the biſhoppes ſole election / wherunto Caluin maketh anſwer. For vntounto the Papiſtes ſayinge / that the people were ſhut forthe becauſe off the contentions / and tumultes which happened often times: he anſwereth confeſſing there were ſuch motions / and ſturres / but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō / was browght in for a remedy againſt thoſe ſturres / he affirmeth to be a plaine lie. and ſheweth that there were other waies to meete with thoſe diſorders / as to puniſhe them which ſhould moue any tumult. And ſo goeth forward in ſhewinge the trewe cawſe off the falling awaie off this libertie / from the churche. To all the reſte off his reaſons I hauehave anſwered before at large / ſauinge that he hath emboſſed owte this laſte / with a ſentence Hoſius li. de legit. iudic rerum eccl.off Chryſoſtome vponupon Iohn / drawen from Hoſius: who vſeth this teſtimonie againſte the election of the churche. Where both Hoſius / and the Anſ. ſhoulde hauehave learned / to hauehave put a difference betwene a confuſed multitude, and the church off God. For I woulde aſke off Hoſius (howe ſhamles ſo euer he be) whether he dare define the church off God / which is the ſpouſe / and body off Chriſte / to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte, and ſturres, conſiſtinge, ad raſhly compacted for the moſte parte of folie, &c. and yet ether the anſwer is not afraied to ſaie / that this is the difinition / that is to ſaie the very nature / and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God: or els if he vnderſtand yt of ſome other companie / he hath ſaide nothinge againſte the election off the church. And verely I can not ſee / howe he coulde ſpeake more vilely / of the moſte diſordred rowte / off moſte godles people: then he ſemeth to doo off that aſſemblie / vvhichwhich beinge indewed with the wiſdome of the moſte higheſte / he calleth a thing conſiſtinge off folies: and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vntounto waues off the ſea. By which ſymilitude the ſcripture ſetteth forthe the eſtate of the reprobate / or at leaſte off the wicked vvhichwhich hauehave as yet no Iam. 1. 6.Jas 1:6ſocietie with our Sauiour.

Therfore to conclude / ſeinge that the election off the churche p. CCXCIIin her miniſters / hath grounde owt off the worde off God / both in commaundement / and continuall practiſe / both in the olde Teſtamente / and in the newe: conſydering alſo it hath allowance off commen reaſon / the approbacion off all times after the Apoſtles / as longe as ther was any ſinceritie / in peace and perquution / both by councells / and Emperours decrees / both by godly writers ancient / and off our time: and conſidering he hath not ſo much as browghte an example to the contrarie / owte off any auror / and if he coulde yet the ſame is condemned / not onelyonly by the worde off god / but by continuall good harmonie off councells / one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares: and foraſmuch as the Anſ. hathe this queſtion of election by the biſhope onelyonly / commen with the Papiſtes / and hathe had both ſworde / and buckler miniſtred him owte off the moſte groſſeſte Papiſtes: I conclude / that both the church owghte to hauehave her conſente in the election off her miniſters: and that the ſole autoritie / off biſhops creating miniſters / is vnlawfull.

VntoUnto this queſtion off election / and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract. of ceremonies in ordeining: off which the 2. Diuiſion beinge anſwered / and the firſt / and third vnworthy of anſwer / there remaineth onelyonly the fowrth. Againſte that he alledgeth / that the biſhop mighte as well ſay receiue the holy goſte to the miniſters made by him, as to vſe the wordes off the Lordes ſupper, Pag. 228.I replied that there was a commaundement for the one, and not for the other: wherunto he ſaith / that there is no ſpeciall commaundement, Which is no anſwer. For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole inſtitution / doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff / then the argument ſtandeth. That he bringeth off the miniſter, ſayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie, and in recitall off the commaundementes, thow ſhalte hauehave no other god but me: is nothing worthe / ſeinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface / off God ſpake thes vvordes: Chriſte tooke bread, &c. The place of Timothe vvith Maiſter Caluins expoſitiō / is vtterly impertinent. For it is not queſtion whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth / or no: but vvhether he giueth them by this means / of ſayinge receiue, &c. where he ſaith / that the Apoſtels when they laide on their hands, likely vſed thes wordes: it is vntrwe p. CCXCIII/ conſidering that Saincte Luke / purſuing the leſte of thoſe ceremonies which were vſed / made no mencion off it / being in the D. iudgement / worthieſt off all other to be followed. And if they had vſed yt / yet yt folowed not that the biſhops maie doo it: conſidering that it was proper onelyonly to the Apoſtles / to giuegive the giftes off the holy goſte / by layinge on off handes.

Where he ſaith / that Chriſte commaundinge the ſea to be quiet, and breathing vppon his diſciples, confirmed his diuinitie: I anſwer that he did the ſame / in commaunding to receiue the holy goſte / which otherwiſe he woulde hauehave praied for / as at other times when he gaue teſtimonie off his humanitie. Caluin althowgh he vſe not the ſame 4. lib. Inſtit. 19. c. 29. ſect. Ioh. 11. 43. Mat. 9. 5.John 11:43Matt 9:5example / yet vſeth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes / receiue the holy goſte, with thoſe being ſaide to Lazarus dead in his graue / come forth, and to the Palſeie man / ryſe, and vvalke. And his breathing beinge the Sacrament off thoſe wordes receiue the holy goſte: they muſte off neceſſitie be referred to the ſame ende. So that if our Sauiour woulde declare his deuinity by one: it was his minde to doo the ſame by the other. And if becauſe he inſtituted a miniſter by thoſe wordes / they are to be vſed: then the breathing alſo muſt lykwiſe / conſidering that he vſed that / for the confirmacion off the wordes. Where he ſaith / they conteine a perpetuall promiſe, off the preſence off the ſpirite, with thoſe which Chriſte ſhall call: euen ſo doth the commaundinge off the ſea / &c. to be quiet / conteine a perpetuall promiſe / that the winde / and ſea ſhoulde ryſe / and fall / for the profite off thoſe vvhichwhich be the Lordes. But as there is no promiſe / that that ſhall be in abating their rage / ſo foundainly as our Sauiour Chriſte did: ſo there is no worde / that the Lorde will giuegive his ſpirite / by pronouncing off this ſentence.

The biſhop (ſaithe he) hath no meaninge to commaunde. Nether had the Papiſtes: but why he ſhoulde ſpeake one thing / and meane another / he can ſhewe no reaſon. therfore our faulte beinge in this poincte / the ſame vvith the Papiſtes: hath the ſame Cenſure off writers / inueighing againſte this vnaduiſed imitacion. That which is ſaide / that if any patron off calling is to be followed, our ſauiour Chriſtes owghte: is a groſſe begging of that in controuerſie / p. CCXCIIIIand then apparantly refuted / in that our Sauiour Chriſte gaue newe names in his ordination / ſente forth two by two / commaunded Mar. 3. 16. 17. Luk. 10. 1. Matt. 10. 10.Mark 3:16Mark 3:17Luke 10:1Matt 10:10they ſhould cary no weapon / &c. which can hauehave no place in our ordinacions. Where I alledged that the reaſon was not one in thes wordes / and in the wordes off the ſupper / in that the miniſter doth not commaund that the bread be the body / but ſaith yt is: he anſwereth nothing.