A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 20
Tract. 3. and 4. according to the D. That all ordinarie Miniſteries / are annexed to a certein place.
THe A. in heaping vp certein differences / betwene the office off an Apoſtle / and Paſtor / anſwereth nothing to the Diuiſ. 1: pag. …16.matter. Yff this be true which is ſet downe / that they be like in this / that a certein church is to a paſtor / or a miniſter / vvhichwhich the twelfth place was then amongeſt the Apoſtels: the reaſon off the Adm. is mainteined. For then as it was not lawfull for them / to hauehave proceeded vntounto a newe election / if Iudas had not fallen from his miniſterie: ſo it is not lawfull to ordeine Paſtors / ſo longe as the place is full. likewiſe if the Apoſtels would not vndertake any election / but where they had the light / and guide off the worde off God / to ſhewe them the way / not onelyonly what manner a one / but when he ſhould be choſen: muche leſſe is it lawefull for the Biſhoppes. The firſt off thes being ſo cleare as the A. durſt not plainly denie / he doth notwithſtanding puſhe at priuely / ſaying / that Paul, and Barnabas were added aboue the nombre off twelue. But he ſhould hauehave knowen / that they were added by the Lorde / and not by the church: where he ſhould hauehave ſhewed that the Apoſtels / &c. choſe the thirtenth Apoſtle. And we denie not but the Lorde may nowe (if yt ſeme good vntounto him) chooſe ſome Miniſter / which hath no certein place.
That which he obiecteth off Epaphroditus / &c. to be Apoſtels / ſuche as we ſpeake off: is an abſurd begging off that which is in queſtion. Where againſt the ſecond point he ſaith / that there is no ſuche thing in the Election off the Paſtors, as that in their election, the ſcripture ſhould be fulfilled, &c. allthoughe there be not ſo particular a worde / as off chuſinge one into Iudas place / yet there is a certein rule / in obedience whereoff the ſcripture is daily fulfylled. And ſo falleth alſo his other exception / which ſuppoſeth that off one example, we make a generall rule. Conſidering that we craue no further helpe off that example / then the ſame was compaſſed by the worde off God. The A. grauntinge the diſtinction Diuiſ. 2. Pa 217.off ordinarie / and extraordinarie Miniſteries / and yet denying that it can be warranted by the ſcriptures pourſueth his former traine / off ſhrincking the ſcriptures. Seinge yt followeth thereuppon / that ſome truthe in Diuinitie / cannot be warranted by the worde off God. The queſtion moued off the Elders / is out off place: the anſwer whereunto ſhalbe differred / vntounto the proper treatiſe. The abſurd ſpeaches which he hath here / and in the next Diuiſion off Apoſtels / Euangeliſtes / and Prophetes / come to be examined in the anſwer to his third chap.
Heere firſt he trifleth with his reader / whileſt he ſuppoſeth Diuiſ. 4. pag. 229.that I ground the function off Elders / vponupon the 4. off the Epheſ. and that Ieſteme that place a perfect rule of Eccleſiaſticall functions, when as not onelyonly I hauehave no ſyllable ſounding that way: but hauehave declared the contrarie / in that by a long diſcourſe in the queſtion off the Archebiſhop / I hauehave ſhewed that that place is onelyonly of the Miniſteries / occupied in the worde. That which he ſpeaketh heere off ouerſeing ſhepherdes / and watchmen / belongeth to the 6. Diuiſion where yt is repeated. That off one ſhepherd hauing many flockes / belongeth to the queſtion off hauing many benefices. Yt remaineth to mainteine that part off the Diuiſion / which ſetteth downe the Doctor off the church / as a ſeuerall member from a Paſtor. Which may appeare by that the Apoſtle placeth them both to the Romanes / and Epheſ. as diuers. Ro. 12. 7. Eph. 4. 11beſide that the giftes differing / whereby thoſe functions are executed / and there being apt to teache / and therfore meet for the office off a Doctor / which hauehave no grace in exhortacion / or mouing the affections off the hearers / and therefore not ſo fit to be Paſtors: yt muſt followe / that the functions be diuers.
And where the Anſ. oppoſeth vntounto vsus the iudgement off one / or twoo: it is eaſye to ſhewe / not onelyonly moe authorities off priuate men / but the vſe off the Elder churches / euen from the Apoſtels time: Epecially in Alexandria / where the diſtinction off the Biſhop / and Doctor off the church / is ſo often obſerued by the eccleſiaſticall ſtory: alſo the couſtome continued in cathedrall churches (as they are called) wherefrom time to time beſide the Biſhop / hathe bene a reader. And if thes were not diſtinguiſhed: thē muſt it needes follow / which in an other place the A. denieth / that there were ordinarily two Biſhops in one church / conſidering that beſide the Elders / and him which they commonly called the biſhopp / there was alſo a Doctor. Nether ought it to be any hinderance to this diſtinction / that Saint Paul coupleth the Paſtor, and Doctor together, where as he ſundred the reſt that goe before, by this worde Some. For the coniunction dothe not couple them in ſignification / but maketh them onelyonly couples off the liberalitie off Chriſte / towardes his church. Eſpecially conſidering that bothe this coniunction And, is oftentimes a note to couple ſeuerall members off one diuiſion: and the Apoſtel would rather hauehave ſaide or Doctors, then and Doctors, if he had ment to make them all one. But all this had not needed / if the Anſ. woulde hauehave ſtoode by his former worde / in the writinge intitled The Doctors booke. For in ſayinge / there that the Apoſtle in the Epiſtle to the Corint. ſpeaketh onelyonly off Apoſtels, Prophetes, and Doctors, Leauing out Euangeliſtes, and yet Euangeliſtes, and paſtors neceſſarie: he dooth manifeſtly confeſſe / that thes functions differ betwene them ſelues. Nether can he ſaie / that he ſpake there accordinge to my ſenſe. For I had not then ether ſpoken / or written any worde off that matter.
Thus in that he is called the Doctor off ſuche a churche / in pag. 234.parte is anſwered the queſtion how yt can be ſhewed, that he is tied to a certeine churche. And for further anſwer / when as admitting that there is ſuche an office / he can not denie but the inſtitution off it / is amongeſt other ſpoken of vntounto Titus: all thoſe myniſteries being appointed to a certein towne / and congregation / yt foloweth 1. Tit. 5.that that office ys likewiſe. Moreouer conſidering that exhortation / and doctrine be neceſſary for the interteinement off a churche in the trwe ſeruice off God: in that S. Paul parting thes betwene 12. Rom. 7. 8.the Paſtor / and Doctor / and placing the office off the Paſtor eſpecially in exhortation / aſcribeth that off teaching principally to the Doctor: yt followeth that the Paſtor being tied vntounto a place / the Doctor muſte alſo. wherby is likewiſe anſwered his other queſtion / how it can be proued, that the doctor was gyuen in aide off pag. 234.the paſtor. for the paſtor being by the bādes of his vocatiō / eſpecially tied vntounto exhortation: a ſupplie of teaching being nedefull / it muſt be fetched at his handes / whoſe proper profeſſion that is. Laſt off all / herby appeareth / what an abuſe yt is in the vniuerſitie / that they are created doctors which not onelyonly doo not the office / but hauehave not ſo muche as a certeine place aſſigned to teach in: which amongeſt other / are the two principall thinges I miſlike / as vnlawfull. Where in the end off his booke he ſaith / that it Pag. 781.were cofuſion, and Barbariſme to take away ſuch degrees: he doth ſhamefull iniury to diuers reformed churches in Sauoy / and Swiſſerland: where all kinde of learning / and good behauiour floriſhing / thoſe degrees are not. But it is to be noted that together with the churches / Muſculus eſpecially hath his part in this charge off Barbariſme, &c. The churches not hauing the other degrees in artes / which are indifferent / gyue no ſentence off the Doctorſhipp: but Muſc. doth plainly declare his miſliking. For hauing ſpoken againſt the popiſh Doctors / he addeth: vvherfore I hauehave VponUpon 1: Cor. 12.often merueiled, vvhat diuers notable miniſters off Chriſt meane, that they glory ſo much off the title off an vniuerſitie Doctorſhip: as though any autoritie came to their doctrine therby. Where it is knowen that thoſe whom he ment / were modeſt / gloriyng no further / then that as a meanes to draw more credit to their miniſtery / they receyued it: which Muſcul to wcheth them for. Therfore onles he had bene driuen headlong / he would at leaſt hauehave left his degrees indifferent: and not ſuch as withowt which / no godly honeſtie / nor ciuilitie can ſtand.
In the next diuiſion his anſwer is vnſufficient. For the reaſon againſt reading Miniſters / is not onelyonly becauſe they are appoincted to no certein place: but for that they are vtterly without all miniſterie / and whether euer they ſhalbe or no / yt hangeth ether off their owne / or off their patrones pleaſure. So that if ether he forthincking him ſelfe / like the ſhop better then the churche: or the patrone will kepe the dore ſhut againſt ſuche inſufficient men / which the biſhopp opened ſo wide: or (as ſometime falleth out) they can not agree of their market: yt comet to paſſe that he is made a Miniſter / which ether can not / or will not / not onelyonly not fulfill / but not ſo much as lay hand off that miniſterie / whereunto he was appointed. Contrary vntounto the rule off Saint 1. Timo. 3. 10.Paul / that leueth not this in choiſe: but commaundeth preciſely / that if after triall they be found blameles / they ſhould exerciſe their miniſterie.
To proue that there may be a rouing miniſterie / and ſome which may hauehave the walk of a whole prouince / here is firſt alledged Diuiſ. 6. pag. 220.that the Apoſtels viſited the places where there were ſeuerall Paſtors. Whereunto the anſwer is / that that function off the Apoſtels was extraordinary (as ſhall appeare) and therfore at no hand to be drawne vntounto our times. Secondly is brought the example of Darius / which beſide 120. gouernoures ſet ouer the ſeuerall prouinces, made three other to ouerſee the…. Wherunto I anſwer / that the Lord hath in aſſigning offices off the commen wealth / left the libertie vntounto men / which he hath not doon in offices off the church. The reaſon whereoff is manifeſt: conſidering that they bothe are off greater ſufficiency to ordeine offices / for the commodities of this life / then for thoſe off the life to come: and the errour in appointing of them / is not ſo daungerous. Euſebius ſheweth howe Lib. 4. de vit. Conſtant.Conſtantine inuented newe degrees off honour / to pleaſure thoſe which were about him. This not being forbidden in ciuill gouernemēt / I thincke the A. dare not ſay it is lawfull to be doon in the gouernement off the church.
Hereby alſo is anſwered the ſurmiſe off kinges which being called ſheapherds, ſhould by this meanes hauehave their dominions reſtreined vntounto the gouernement off one cytie. For the ſcripture hauing not determined / whether there ſhould be a Prince ouer eueryevery citie / as it hath that eueryevery aſſembly ſhould hauehave a paſtor: and the enmities / and aſſaultes againſt the ciuill eſtate / not being ſo great / and daungerous as againſt the ſpirituall: yt can by no meanes followe / that the tying off the Miniſter vntounto one church / ſhould encloſe the Princes aucoritie in the circuit off one citie. But it is to be obſerued / that both the D. reaſons / off the Apoſtels viſiting / and of Darius pollicie / leade to Rome. For yt followeth vppon them / that one may hauehave ouerſight of all the Miniſters: ſeing that both eueryevery off the Apoſtels / had autoritie to viſite any church through the world / and euen off thoſe three vvhichwhich were ouer the gouernours off 120. prouinces / Daniel was the cheif. And albeit we leaue no place / ether to thoſe rouing / or owtgrowne miniſteries: yet the ſheapherds / and watchmē want not therefore their ouerſeers, conſidering that the Eccleſiaſticall Senate / doth not onelyonly watch ouer the body off the church: but eueryevery one off them ouer an other / and eſpecially ouer the myniſter. off thes alſo as eueryevery one in brotherly equalitie ought to admoniſhe: ſo iontly they hauehave autoritie not onelyonly to admoniſhe / but by Eccleſiaſticall cenſures to chaſtiſe the default off their miniſter. Yf they alſo faile / the Synodail aſſemblies hauehave intereſt / as I hauehave before alledged. And if the fault be ſuche as requireth cyuill puniſhement: the Magiſtrate is the watchman / appointed off God for that pourpoſe.
Where he ſaith that a ſimilitude maketh a matter plaine, but proueth not: when I added / they were argumentes drawne off the nature off thinges / wherunto the Miniſters are likened / and are for the moſte part vſed by the holy goſt himſelfe: I preuented that obiection / wherunto the S. ſaithe nothing. But if they proue nothing / becauſe they were ſimilitudes: then his anſwers to ouerthrowe them / being bare ſimilitudes / and in thinges wherein they be compared moſte vnlike / are inſufficient. The reſt off the ſecond ſection off this diuiſion / which is almoſte a whole ſyde / ys perteining to the queſtion off Reſidence / and off hauing twoo benefices. VntoUnto thes argumentes which I vſed / as hovve they ſhould knovv his voice, vvhen they can not heare yt? acknovvledge him, vvhen they can not knovv him: follovve him vvhen they can not ſee him goe before? or hovve he ſhould heale their diſeaſes, vvhen he can not poſsibly knovve them? he anſwereth Diuiſ. 7. pag 222. 1. Tit. 5. Act. 14. 23.not a worde.
That S. Paul in commaunding to appoint Elders throwghe eueryevery citye / ment eueryevery companie off the faithfull / ryſing vntounto a nombre cōuenient to meet in one aſſemblie: yt is manifeſt by the place off Saint Luke / where yt is ſaide / that elders were ordeined thorowghout eueryevery congregation. Wherunto albeit the Anſ. could ſay nothing / yet in preſſing the word cytie / he ſheweth his good will. VntoUnto this yt may be added / that the ſcripture vſeth oftentimes for ſhortnes ſake / by a cytye to comprehend as well townes / and villages / as the great cities. For where Saint Matthew hath citie / or towne / S. Luke hath citie onelyonly: and in Mat. 10. 11. Luk 10. 8.diuerſe places off the tenth of Saint Matth. 9 and 10. off Luke / the precepts gyuen off the Apoſtels behauiour in the cities / are neceſſarily vnderſtanded off other places. Likewiſe that both M. Beza / and Eraſmus reformed herein the ould tranſlatour / changing his tranſlation off citie by citie (as that which attained not fully to the meaninge off the Apoſtle) into a more generall ſpeach / off tovvne by tovvne. This ſhall yet better appeare / in the 3. cha. 8. Tract. where it ſhalbe ſhewed / howe the inſtitution off God is / that a Biſhop ſhoulde be not off a dioceſe (ſuch as ours) or prouince / but off a particular church. Which treatiſe I would hauehave drawne hyther / as vntounto the proper place / but that theſe places are ſo intangled with the queſtion off the Dominion off the Biſhop / that I could not without too great trouble off the reader / ſeuer yt. Where he ſaithe that Saint Paul commaunding to appoint Miniſters to certein places, did not thereby forbid Titus to make Miniſters hauing no certeine place: he ſhould vnderſtand / that S. Paul knewe he had to doo with one / which had learned well that leſſon off the lawe off God / Thovv ſhalt onelyonly doo that vvhichwhich I cōmaund the. And it is ſhamefull iniurie doon to Titus / once to thincke that he made kindes off Miniſteries / whereof he had no commiſſion by the Apoſtle. The reſt is nothing / but a manifeſt begging off that which is in queſtion.
Where I alledged the councell off Calcedon / that none ſhoulde be ordeined loſely / but vntounto ſome ſpeciall congregation: the D. being at a bay / and hauing no place to eſcape / commeth vponupon me vvith open mouth / and will beare the reader in hand / that I hauehave falſified the Councell, and why? forſooth becawſe I hauehave left out theſe wordes, Or in the place off Martyrs buriall, or in monaſterie. I left them out in deed / becauſe we hauehave no vſe off foreign.them. Howbeit what ſyllable is there here / which helpeth him / or in all the canon which he hath ſet downe? That the councell men… not, that a man muſt off neceſsity be ordeined to a certein place, but that he ſhould hauehave ſome ſtay off liuing: is directly contrary to the councells wordes / which expreſſeth the firſt plainly / and off the later ſpeaketh nor a word. The reaſons vſed hauehave not ſo much as any ſenſe / and are drawen firſt from the filthie puddle off Popiſh diuinity / that there be ecceſiaſticall miniſteries withowt cure / and places not neding any paſtorall charge: wheras if thoſe monaſteries &c. were lawfull aſſemblies / eueryevery eccleſiaſticall miniſtery was as neceſſary for them / as for other. Afterward they are drawne from a ſhameles corruption off the councels wordes / by ſworne ennemies off all good order in the church: which to ouerthrowe a plaine meaning / hauehave interpreted vvithovvt hauing ſome title, withowt hauing ſome poſſeſſion, or liuing.
And that I hauehave ſet downe the true meaning off this councell / may eaſely appeare by an other: which forbad this wandring from citie to citie. For Theodoret reprehending Euſebius Theod. 1. 19.biſhop off Nicomedia / for leauing his owne church to be biſhop in an other: alledgeth a canon wherby yt was ordeined / that none ether biſhop, or elder ſhould goe frō citie to citie. Wherby appeareth / they had all certein places. Yea the D. Denis ſhall giuegive teſtymony vntounto vsus in this behalf / whoſe wordes be: vve hauehave appoincted to eueryevery elder his proper pariſh, and church 1. Tom. conc. Epiſ. ad Seuer.yeard, and ordeine that eueryevery one kepe his ovvne right, ſo that none enter into the boundes off an other pariſh: but eueryevery one contēt him ſelf vvith his ovven, and ſo gouerne the church cō mitted vntounto him, that he may giuegive account, &c. But that this ſhameful: facing off the D. may be manifeſt / I will ſet downe Caluins iudgement off this canon / wherby ſhall better appeare who hath vſed moſt faith herein / he or I. Speaking againſt the Popiſh making off miniſters / he ſaith: But it vvas ordeined in Inſt. 4. li. ca. 5. ſe. 4.the councell off Calcedon, that there ſhould be no abſolute ordeining off miniſters, that is to ſay, onles there vvere a place aſſigned, vvhere the ordeined might exerciſe his charge. Here is the ſame ſenſe / and expoſition off the councell which I hauehave followed / as full in eueryevery point. now let vsus heare owt off what ſchoole the D. expoſition commeth. He addeth a litle after: But our Romiſh maiſters, vvhichwhich thincke nothing to be cared for but the belly, fyrſt interprete a title, a ſufficient reuenue vvherby he may be able to liue, vvhether left off his freindes, or by ſome benefice. Therfore ordeining a prieſt, or Deacon if he able to liue, they giuegive him the degree: not regarding vvhere he ſhould exerciſe his miniſtery. But vvho vvill euer admit, that the litle vvhichwhich the councell requireth, is a yerely reuenue to mainteine himſelfe vvith? And after ſhewing other fraudes / Sect. 5.wherby they hauehave deluded other councells / which cōfirmed this / he addeth is yt not alvvaies abſurd, to ordein an elder, to vvhom there is no place appointed? wherby appeareth not onelyonly Calu. iudgement off this queſtion: but how impudent a corruption off the councell / he eſtemeth this / which the D. ſo greatly alloweth.
The councell off Vrbane owght to make the D. bluſh: and the corruptions which he to ſo ſmall pourpoſe / chargeth his booke with / cauſe it to ſpeake ſo lowde / that the very deafe eares owght to heare. For this diuinity off the later popery which he mainteineth / being condemned off the former: hath therby a brand of corruptiō / wherby it may be knowen. Conſydering that popery geue ſtill from euill to worſe / and that it was not able to put this order off the church to flight: vntill yt approching vntounto her full age / had gotten greater ſtrenght off wickednes. What Ierome hath of this matter / I hauehave ſhewed. In the next Diuiſion beſide this queſtion / whether yt be conuenient for a miniſter to take wages, which can liue off his owne / which I will not enter into / there is nothing but bare repetition / and open petition of that in controuerſie. The next chap. of Ceremonies in ordeining, is anſwered before.