A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 — Thomas Cartwright

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Thomas Cartwright

To all thes accuſations off the A. wherby he chargeth the Diuiſ. 2. pag 101.ciuill elections off bodies politike / if I ſhoulde anſwer that The diſorder off the biſhoppes election is ſuche, the peace with Sathan / and ſynne / and contention with all goodnes that hath / and dailie dooth iſſue by them into all the partes off the Realme / ſo horrible / the ambition of the perſon ſtandinge in election ſo ſhameles / the corruption off ſome / the partiall affection off others to their kinſfolke, their ſeruāts / their ſeruāts freēds / the careleſnes of others / in ſome the wāte of ſufficiēt knowledge / in other ſome of ſinceritie / and purenes of doctrine / to be ſhorte in all the wante of dewe conſyderatiō of weightynes of that miniſterie / is ſo apparante: that as that manner off election for neceſſarie cawſes / is altered in the beſt ordered churches in Europe / ſo it is deſired to be altered, in the churche of Englande / by thoſe which be wiſe, godly, and learned, and by thoſe which louelove the godlie quietnes, and proſperitie off the churche: and that experience crieth that thoſe are the worthieſt miniſters / moſt apteſte to ſet forthe the glorie off God / muſte profitableſte for the church / which are choſen with the conſente of the people: I ſaie if I ſhoulde anſwer thus / I dowte not but all the worlde will witnes with me / that I hauehave iuſter cauſe thus to ſpeake off the biſhoppes elections off miniſters: then the A. hathe to ſpeake ſo ſlaunderously / off ciuill elections made by conſent in townes / and cities. God be praiſed this cauſe off diſcipline wee mainteine / hath bene / and by Godes grace ſhalbe vpholden / withoute towche off any lawfull eſtate / or forme off gouernment off commen wealth: but yt appeareth that the Anſw. can not mainteine his cawſe / without open oppugninge off one off them. And therfore to keepe the biſhoppe in his throne / downe muſte goe all elections by manie / and by the ſame reaſon all trialls off controuerſies by manie / all determinations / and iudgmentes by manie / and in a vvorde the whole eſtate almoſte off our commen wealth / muſte bee remoued. Yow ac…e vsus off confoundinge the commen wealth / vvhichwhich yow are neuer hable to proue: here yow are taken in the verie acte doinge / not by concluſion / or implication / but by a flatt / and directe affirmation. I dowbte not that wiſe men doo ſee yowr folie / vvhichwhich beinge ſo vnſkilfull of the gouernment of the churche / the knowledge vvherof you doo profeſſe: vvill take vponupon yow as Phormio vntounto Haniball / to preſcribe vvhat forme of gouernemente / muſte be vſed in the commen vvealth. And if it vvere not beſide my profeſſion / I coulde ſhewe that it agreeth moſte bothe with the definition of a cytiſen / vvhichwhich thoſe gyue vvhichwhich handell this matter / and vvith the practiſe off the beſte gouerned cities / that the cytiſens ſhould hauehave this intereſte off choiſe off their Maiors / and Bailifes: confirmed by experience off daungerous ſeditions / and ſeperatiōs from the cōmen wealth / which hauehave happened by abridginge the people off this / and ſuche liberties. But for ſomuche as yt belongethe not vntounto a diuine / to medle with thoſe / but to contente him ſelfe with what forme off gouernemente ſoeuer (ſo it be lawfull) thowght good to thoſe / to whom the orderinge of that doothe perteine: I leaue to ſpeake of that matter. But a man maye ſmell the D. farre off. For this is put in for defence off that ſpoile / which he / and others by vntrew ſurmiſes / moſte vnnaturally made in the vniuerſitie / when to thende the Idlenes / couetouſnes / and ambition of certeine might be the more ſecure / and without checke they by their longe / and crooked talones / ſeaſed vponupon the authoritie off the Vniuerſitie Senate.

But becauſe he caſteth ſo ſcornefully awaie / thoſe reaſons vvhichwhich are alledged by me: I woulde knowe what he will anſwer to Maiſter Martyr / who vſeth the ſame reaſon I hauehave here / ſaying that it is no meruaile, that the church hath this righte to VponUpon 1. Cor. 16.chuſe her miniſters: ſeinge the ciuil lavves doo giuegive this povvre to incorporate tovvnes, to chuſe their Phyſicions, and Scolemaiſters.

Where he ſaith / that the multitude is for the moſte parte ignorant, careles, and oftentimes euill diſpoſed, and commonly led by affection, hatred, feare, &c. There is no vice which anie one off the churche is ſubiecte vntounto / but the biſhopp is ſubiecte vntounto the ſame. Nether i… there any affection enemie vntounto a good election / wheroff the biſhoppe is not liker to be ouercomed: then either the whole churche / or the greateſte parte theroff.

What neede this goinge abowte the buſhe? I ſpeake off the viſible churche / called by the preaching off the goſpell: not off thoſe whoſe callinge is yet hydden / and folded vp in Godes electiō. And of thoſe I ſaie / not as yow (for what can yow els doo:) vntrewly reporte / that they can not erre in chuſing their paſtor: but that they are not ſuch: ignorant dottrels / as yow woulde make vsus beleue / ād ſuch as hauehave no taſte to diſcerne betwene good and bad / holie and vnholie. And this knowledge / and diſcretion off good and euill / is not onelyonly in thoſe whiche are effectually called: but in thoſe alſo vvhichwhich hauehave onelyonly the outward callinge / without the ſpirite off ſanctification / and adoption off the children off God. So that the pretence off ſuche ignorance as yow ſpeake off / can not fall into anie whiche are off the viſible church off God. The D. coulde not hale in the corrupte interpretation off the pope in this place / to helpe to make vp his anſwer / but he muſte aſcribe a notable vntrewthe vntounto me / that I ſhoulde goe abowte to proue, that the churche can not erre in the election off the miniſter. Where hauehave I pretended any ſuche thinge? or what neede hauehave I to proue that? As if I coulde no otherwiſe driue the biſhopp from this ſole election / onles I coulde proue that the people can not erre in their electiō: Or as if biſhoppes elections were without danger off error / ſo that he whiche will change them / muſte be driuen to ſeeke for ſuche electors / as no error can take holde off. And iff any barres were ſtronge enowghe / to kepe yowr tonge from this vntrew dealinge: my wordes which followe by and by after / wherin I confeſſe the church maie erre, had beene ſufficient to reſtraine yt.

Againſte my reaſons here be bare wordes / that the paſtors are Diuiſ. 3. pa. 172.neuer the worſe loued, that are thruſte vppon them. I coulde hauehave as well as yow alledged the experience in other places / if all men coulde hauehave ſeen yt: and hauehave referred them to the manifolde fi… tes in lawe betwene the paſtor / and the people in our churches. How often ſhall I tell him that the papiſtes are not the churche / nor off the churche off Chriſte: and therfore not to be ſuffred / to hauehave to doo with the election off the miniſter? this needed he not to hauehave aſked / if he had had his (to be ſhorte) which he repeteth ſo often / in any commendation. He aſketh / whether men allwaies continue in louelove, off thoſe whom they hauehave choſen. yt is eaſier to continew louelove / where louelove is: then bothe to fal into louelove of him vvhom they coulde not awaie with / and alſo to continew the courſe off that louelove ſtill. And if the not ſeruinge off their affections, breed hatered towardes him whom they louelove: yt will muche more make yt flame againſte him / againſte whom yt was before kindled.

But ſtill the A. imagineth off the churche as off dogges / and which receiuinge meate at the hand off their paſtor / turne againe Mat. 7. 6.vponupon him / and rēt him: and not as ſheepe vvhichwhich heare the voice off their paſtor. And althowghe there be ſome hypocrites vhhich doo ſo: yet all the church doth not ſo. And therfore for their ſakes / 10▪ Iohn. 4.and for the giuinge the deeper roote off louelove in their hartes towardes the paſtor: yt is meete that this waie off free conſente ſhoulde be taken. As for the Hypocrites / vvhen they ſhall ceaſſe to louelove theyr paſtors / for rebukinge their faultes: that ſhall be to the encreaſe of godes glorie. Forſomuch as they are by ſo muche more inexcuſable before God: as they hauehave refuſed his admonition / whom they them ſelues choſe for that purpoſe. And not that onelyonly / but the hatred conceiued off that dewtie off the miniſter / ſhall be bridled / and holden in rather by …e remembrance off the iudgement / vvhichwhich he once in token off good will gaue off him. For euen the earthely / and naturall man hath this in him / that whom he hath once loued: hym if he hate afterwarde / onles yt be for ſome thinge apparantly worthy off hatred / he will be lothe to vtter it. And althowghe for that his maners pleaſe him not / he can not louelove him yet leſte he ſhoulde appeare inconſtante / and deceiued in his choiſe: he will pretende to louelove him ſtill. So that the conſente off the churche in the election of the miniſterie / beinge profitable vntounto the godlie / and thoſe vvhichwhich are trewe ſheepe / that their louelove maie abounde towardes their miniſter / and in reſpecte off the Hypocrites / and goates / that they maie be more inexcuſable before God / and leſſe hurtefull to men: thes reaſons ſtand ſtill vntouched off the A.

Yt is an eaſye thinge for M. D. Which neither proueth / Diuiſ. 4. pag 173.nor improueth any thinge by ſcripture / to aſke by what ſcripture proue, that if the pariſhe chooſe an vnfitt miniſter: the miniſters, and elders of the churches ſhould aduertiſe, &c. The ſcripture I proue yt by ys / that Saint Paule when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members off one miſticall body off Chriſte / which owghte to hauehave a mutuall Rom. 12. 12. 1. Cor.care one off an other: laide the foundations off this politie. for as in the bodie off one particular church / eueryevery faithfull man cōpared with an other in the ſame / is a member one off a nother: ſo in a more generall bodie off a whole Realme / euerie particular churche cōpared with other / is likewiſe member of them. therfore as nature teacheth my hande to helpe the diſorder which is in another parte of my bodie: ſo the ſpirite of God owte of his worde / throwghe a fellow feelinge teachetche one churche to ſtretche owte her hande / to put a waie as yt can / the euill vvhichwhich yt ſeethe approche vntounto another. And therfore when the ſcripture willeth Rom. 15. 14. 3. Heb. 13.that one ſhoulde admoniſhe another / it is not onelyonly a commaundement to eueryevery ſingular man / towardes his fellow: but alſo to one whole companie / towardes another ſocietie.

And off this care extended ſo farr that one churche hath 2. Cori. 8. 23.ſente to admoniſhe another / wee hauehave example in the epiſtle to the Corinthes: where the Macedonian churches ſente their embaſſadors with Saincte Paules Epiſtle / bothe to moue the Corinthians to liberalitie towardes the poore / and to receiue that vvhichwhich vvas giuen by the churche vntounto their vſe. And this maie ſerue to proue / that one churche owght to admoniſhe a nother: and therfore alſo thoſe which are nexte / as thoſe which are fitteſte for that pourpoſe.

That from the admonitiō off the churches, yt is meete to come to ſynodes, if the iudgemēt off the churches be contemned: maie beſhewed Math. 18.by proportiō / from the place of our Sauiour Chriſte in Saint Mathew. For as when one brother is not moued with the admonition of two / or three / the matter muſte be referred vntounto the churche / to ſee vvhether the maieſtie of it will moue him / whom the authoritie off twoo or three woulde not: euen ſo it is meete that the church / that maketh lighte off the iudgement off twoo or three churches / ſhoulde be preſſed vvith the iudgementes off the dioceſe or prouince / as ſhall be in that behalffe aduiſed. And if I were in this poincte deſtitute off the worde off God: yet the naked examples off the reformed churches / owght to weighe downe a popiſh cuſtome.

And that the magiſtrate owghte to laie to his hande, iff the admonitions take not place: it is manifeſte by the reaſon which is alledged. I hauehave looked maiſter Zuinglius Eccleſiaſt ouer, and ouer againe. The ſumme wheroff is / that none ſhoulde take vponupon hym any miniſterie / which is not called of ſome churche / ād of the miniſters nere abowte / contrarie to the practiſe off the anabaptiſtes: which entred into all churches / and ſometime put the paſtor beſide the pulpet / from vvhichwhich vvhether yow / or vve be further / let the reader iudge.

Where yow ſaie / that I forgett my ſelffe which ſuppoſe now the churche maie err, that ſaid before yt was ſpirituall, and iudgeth all thinges: if yow coulde forget this vntrue dealinge / I remembred my ſelfe well enowghe. Thes cauilles which come ſo often / without any colour off trewth / are vtterly vnworthy off anſwer: but as I hauehave ſaide in another place / require rather a cenſor / then a diſputer. Howbeit becawſe there is nothinge ſo vnſauerie / which ſome taſte maie not be abuſed by. I hauehave anſwered yt before.

There is nothinge ſo eaſie which is not harde / to him that is vnwillinge. And therfore the A as Salomons ſluggard, ſaith prou 22. 13.that the Lion whoſe delighte is in the foreſte / and in the wildernes / is in the highe ſtreat, or in the burſe: that is to ſaie / maketh difficulties wher none is. And as this partly cometh of his vnwillingnes: ſo diuers of thes queſtions (if he doo not diſſemble) come of wante off knowledge / not onelyonly of the gouernemente of the churches nowe / but off all aunciete tymes. For he aſketh / who ſhall complaine off the faulte committed in the election, to the churches by? if the elders to vvhom that care eſpecially apperteineth / doo not: others owght whō that diſorder offendeth. Ther needeth no callinge together, and therfore no danger off tumulte, diſorder, confuſion, charges, partes takinge, runninge vpp and downe, loſſe off time, offence, quarels: yt is enowghe that yt be doone by the elderſhip off the churches and if were needfull to hauehave the churches / whole conſente: it might be doone in ordinarie meetinge for the ſeruice of god / without anie of thoſe things which the D. imagineth. The churches maie admoniſhe by their ſeueral / or cōmen letters emōgeſte thē. But aſke me not who ſhall carie the letter / what he ſhal hauehave for his paines / whether he ſhal ride / or goe a foote: whiche yow might as well / as thoſe fonde queſtiōs which you hauehave moued.

It is meete the prouinciall Synodes be certeine / and ſtandinge / as often alſo as maie be conueniently: and it was ordeined as I thinke in one of the Africane Councels / that their ſhoulde be at the leſte / twoo or three eueryevery yeare. So there ſhall be as ſpedie prouiſion off a paſtor for the churche / in ſuche caſes off difference: as now when they be without a paſtor ſix whole monethes. For the queſtions who ſhall ſummon the Synodes, and in what place they ſhall be holden: they perteine not to this queſtiō / onles the A. will hauehave no Synodes at all. for if he admitte them: the ſum̄oner / and the place which are meete for the aſſemble generally / and for the decidinge off all cauſes which fall into the conſideracion off the Synod / are meete alſo for this cauſe. And where he aſketh what if the prince doo not his dutie: then yt is as if there vvere no godly magiſtrate / then yt is vvith them as if ſuche a diſorder ſhoulde happen vnderunder an vnchriſtian prince: and then the people ſhall periſhe in their ſinnes / but their bloud ſhall be required at his hand. But ſtill the A. ſeethe not how hee reaſoneth againſte hym ſelfe. For if none of the biſhoppes off the foreſaide pariſhes / none off the elders / neither thoſe biſhoppes and elders vvhichwhich emongeſte the reſte / and in the name off all are choſen as the flowres oute of the prouince / ād ſente to the Synode / nor the magiſtrate / I ſaie if none off all thes / nor all thes together doo their dutie: how ſhall we thinke that the biſhopp vvill doo it? And iff hee doo yt in appoinctinge a fitt biſhopp for the pariſhe / and the pariſhe will not admitt him / but take one vvhichwhich is vnmeete off their owne choiſe: what remedy hath he / when he is forſaken off the magiſtrate? Thus as ſhortly as I coulde / I hauehave anſwered this legion off queſtions: and if my anſwer in ſpeakinge off thinges ſo commen / be tedious: take thy ſelfe good reader vntounto the A. which merueileth at them / as if they came oute off India.

Where he ſaithe / I thus appointe the Prince a good office: I hauehave ſhewed that the ſcripture appointeth yt / and not I: and it is the moſte honorable office which the Prince can hauehave / to ſee the churches be kepte in good order: nether taketh yt any thinge from the royall eſtate that he muſte obey / and ſerue the lorde. And where he ſaithe / by this meanes the Prince muſte ſtande, and loke on all this while, and in the ende laie to his hande: I anſwer / that wheras thes waies off admonition by the churches / and Synode are ſente before his authoritie: yt ſerueth not onelyonly for the eaſe off the magiſtrate / whileſt that after this ſorte oftentimes / the difference is ended before it come to him: but alſo agreeth better with the maner off Phiſicke / which owght to be vſed in ſuch diſeaſes. For that vvhichwhich may be conueniently wonne vvith a vvorde / ſhoulde not be gotten by the ſworde: and that vvhichwhich maye begotten to bee doone with conſcience / ſhoulde not be eſſaied by compulſion. Yowr ſlaunder (that wee gyue no more to the cyuill magiſtrate, then the papiſtes) ſo often repeted / is already / and god willing ſhall be more / apparante. Yt is alſo a notable / and an impudente ſlaunder / that the Magiſtrate muſte onelyonly at the cōmaundemēt of the ſeniors, execute ſuche lawes as they hauehave deuiſed: wher as wee holde / that if al the biſhopes / and elders in the realme / woulde decree vnlawfull thinges / the Prince owght to make them voide: ād that he may / ād owght to puniſhe all eccleſiaſticall perſons / which walke diſorderly. Likewiſe yt is a fond dreame / of ſurcharginge the Prince with thes matters: as thowgh the Princes authoritie / neceſſarily deriued vntounto diuers in eueryevery ſhire / for other affaires off gouernment / maie not likwiſe depart alſo this care vntounto them.

Therfore if yow hauehave no better exceptiōs then theſe: I am not afraied / ſtil to cōmit my reaſons to the iudgement / not onelyonly of the godly / vvhichwhich reſt in authoritie of the word / but euen off the wiſe / ād reaſonable man / which maketh his account of likelihoodes.

THes highe wordes / that he remembreth no learned writer new nor Chap. 6. pa. 165.oulde, which denieth that there were fewe profeſſors of the goſpell in the Apoſtels times, in reſpecte off thoſe profeſſe nowe: what hauehave they beſide a crake? And in reſpecte off the oulde writers / yt is abſurdly ſaide. For howe coulde they compare the nomber of the profeſſors of our times, with thoſe which were in the primitiue churches / onles they ſhoulde prophecie: ſeinge they were dead long before? And maketh yt for yow / if the newe writers doo not denie this? Iff it he no good reaſon from the ſcripture negatiuely, in thoſe thinges which yt profeſſeth to ſpeake off: is it good from other vvriters / and frō one parte off them / in thinges which they make no profeſſion of▪ I looked therfore yow ſhoulde hauehave browghteſome / vvhichwhich by affirming that yow ſaie: mighte if not make it true / yet at the leſte ſeeme true. I could off yowr chalenge take occaſion / to bringe all the peregrination off Sainct Paul / declared in the Act. Epiſtles / and eſpecially in the 15. Rom. drawen to my hand / by which appeareth that he for his parte onelyonly / had cauſed the Goſpell to ſounde in more then halfe off the worlde. I coulde alſo fetche in Euſeb. and Ierome / which teſtifie vvhat the other Apoſtels did Lib. 3. c. r Iero. ad Marcell.for their parte. I propounded that which I ſaide withoute proofe, becauſe the thinges are manifeſtly knowen / and ſuche as can not be denied: yow affirme withowte all proofe that in controuerſie / and wheruppon yowr cauſe in yowr iudgement dependeth / that no one parte off the worlde, no one citie, no one the leaſte towne, receiued the goſpell wholy in the Apoſtles time.

If I ſhoulde ſuffer yow to goe awaie with this greate / and vngrounded ſainge: yet therby can not be concluded / that there are more Chriſtians nowe in a parte off Europe, then was throwghoute the worlde in the Apoſtles time. But I require proofe of that yow ſet downe ſo preciſely / not onelie becauſe I thinke yow can not warrāt yt by any: but alſo becauſe I hauehave ſomewhat to excepte againſte Act. 8.yt. For yt maie appeare that Samaria did wholy receiue the goſpell. For beſide that yt is recited / that vvith one accorde the multitudes gaue heede vntounto that Philipp ſaide: S. Luke declaringe in the 10. and 11. verſes / that all that vvere in Samaria from the litle to the great / vvere bewitched vvith the inchaunmentes off Symon: addeth in the 12. verſe / that vvhen they beleued they vvere baptiſed. This hauing relation vntounto that vvhichwhich goeth before / vvhichwhich is that all were abuſed by the magycian: yt followeth that the whole cytie receyued the goſpell. Wherunto maie be referred 9. Luk. 53. 4. Ioh. 9.the emulation betwene Ieruſalem / and Samaria: wherby yt came to paſſe that the goſpell thruſte oute off Ieruſalem / was both eaſelier / and more generally receiued in Samaria. Lykewiſe that yt is ſaide in the 13. verſe / that euen Simon him ſelfe off al Act. 8:other moſte vntoward / beleeued: and that in the 14. ver. that Samaria had receiued the vvord off God, and not many in Samaria / Act. 14. 1 & 21. & 17 4.as he ſpeaketh off other places / where the Goſpell was but in parte receiued. Yf one excepte / that it is not like eueryevery ſingular perſon turned / at the preaching off Philip: I anſwere that in ſuche ſtreight ſignification of all / there ſhall be at this daie founde no kingdome / and almoſte no citie which hath receiued the goſpell. But if the whole profeſſion off the goſpell / be eſtemed off that which is doone by the bodie / and ſtate of the cytie: yt ſeemeth that the wordes off Saincte Luke will beare owte / a whole / and generall profeſſion at the leaſte off the moſte parte / which yow denie. And yf it be trewe that Euſeb. vvriteth / we hauehave a manifeſte teſtimonie off the whole receiuing off the goſpell in the 2. li. 1. ca.citie off the Ediſſens / which was wonne vntounto the Goſpell by the preachinge off Thaddeus / ſente to kinge Agbarus by Thomas the Apoſtell: off vvhom yt is vvritten / that he browght all to the knowledge of the goſpell / and that the vvhole citie of the Ediſſens, hauing at that time giuē her name vntounto the profeſſion off Chriſte, ſo continued vntounto the time wherin Euſebius vvrote.

Where yow vvoulde ſeeme to ſaie ſome great matter / when yow add not at Ieruſalem: yt is aſmuche as if yow ſhoulde ſay / that no towne receiued the goſpell / becauſe Ieruſalem the moſte murderinge towne in the whole vvorlde / did not: vvhoſe rebellion / and for it deſtruction / beinge foretolde off our Sau. Chriſte / muſte needes follow. For touchinge the Apoſtles abode there / it was not for the hope off any plentifull harueſt to be reaped in that cytie: But partly for that the Iewes / vntounto whom they were ſente to preache firſt / had their concourſe thether from all corners of the worlde: partly to fullfill the prophecye / off the ſounde of the goſpell from Syon / into all partes of the worlde: and thirdly to prepare a readier paſſage / for his heauy iudgementes to Eſa. 23.come vppon that cytie.

That alſo alſo which yow add / that the tenthe parte off the inhabitans off Epheſus, Antioche, and Rome, was not Chriſtian in the Apoſtles times: is onelyonly ſaide / and it is muche for yow to ſpeake ſo largely off the tenthe / not hable to proue the fyueth / or thirde. And althowghe yt can not be certainly knowen / what nomber of beleuers were at thes places: yet it maie be by all likelyhood ſhewed / that it is vntrwe eſpecially off the twoo firſt. Of Antioche wee reade / that when they which were ſcattered by perſecution moued in Act. 11. 20. 21.Ieruſalem / preached there: the hande off the Lorde vvas vvith them, and a great nomber beleuinge turned vntounto the lorde. And in the 24. verſe yt is ſaide / that at the preachinge off Barnabas / there vvas a great multitude added vntounto the lorde. And yet in the 26. verſe yt is declared / that afterward Barnabas procuringe Saint Paules comminge thether / they bothe together abyding there by the ſpace off one whole yeare / tavvght a great multitude. Here is mention off three great multitudes / which at ſeuerall times were turned vntounto the lorde in that citie: and how dare yow yet ſaie / that al thes were not the tenth parte? Of Epheſus alſo it is written / that the fruicte off S. Paules preaching there by the ſpace of twoo yeares / was ſo greate / that the bookes off thoſe which had exerciſed curiouſe / and vnlawfull artes / vvere bourned in the ſight off all men: which coulde not be doone without great daunger vntounto the church / onles the greateſt parte off Act. 19. 19. ibid. 27.the citie had beleued. Which maye yet more appeare / for ſo much as Demetrius the ſiluerſmythe / affirmeth that the arte of makinge ſhrines, and Dianas temple, vvas in danger to be ſet at nothinge.

And as the A. is to narrow / in eſteming the fruicte of the Apoſtles preaching / accompanied with ſuche powre off miracles / and diuerſities off giftes off the holy goſte / wherby were gathered greater nombers off profeſſors off the goſpell / then nowe by the ſymple preaching off the worde: ſo in his accompte off the nomber off profeſſors off the Goſpell now / he is marueilously lauiſhe. For where are thoſe whole contreis, nations, and kingdomes which profeſſe Chriſte? If he take in the Papiſtes to make vp his reckuinge / they will not be receiued. For wee ſpeake off the churche off Chriſte / and off thoſe which imbrace the goſpell: and ſo himſelfe had put yt in his anſwer to the admonition. The papiſtes therfore / which pretendinge the name of Chriſte / perſequute the goſpell / are the Synagogue off Sathan / and muſt in this accounte off Chriſtians / be ſhut owte: howſoeuer by changing off the profeſſors off the goſpell, into thoſe which profeſſe Chriſte, yow woulde ſeeme to winde them in The mixture which was in the Apoſtels times / off profeſſors off the goſpell / with thoſe which were profeſſed enemies vntounto yt / beinge yet in thoſe kingdomes yow ſpeake of: yow are ſo farre from ſhewinge / that the multitude off profeſſors off the goſpell in Europe / is greater now then yt was in then in all Aſia / Africke / and Europe: that yow doo not ſo muche as ſhewe / that the nomber off Chriſtians in Europe yt ſelfe / is nowe greater then in time off the Apoſtles.

When it is ſaide / that the whole church aſſembled for election: all men knowe that therby is mente / that particular companie off profeſſors off the goſpell / which dwellinge nighe together / make one aſſemblie: and therfore that yow write off the impoſsibilitie, off gathering all the church ſcattered throwgh out the whole worlde into one place, is but a meere daliance. Yow ſaie / they mighte well meete withowte confuſion in the Apoſtles times, which can not be nows: the reaſon yow aſſigne / in the fewnes in one place off the profeſſors then, and multitude now. Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities / then were then: and that be geuen yow too / that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections (neither wheroff yow are hable to ſhewe): yet yt ſtill fallethe owte againſte yow. For allbeit ther be moe profeſſors in a citie then were: yt followeth not / that there are moe belonginge vntounto one aſſembly / then there were thē. Wherin I wil goe no further / thē to the exāple of the church / which yow alledge to hauehave choſen the deacons: vvhere coulde hardly be leſſe then ſixe thowſande perſons / ſeing that at the ſecond ſermon of Saincte Peter / there beinge fiue thowſande / it is affirmed afterward that multitudes 4. Act. 4. 5. Act. 14.off men / and weomen were added. Now where ſhall yow hauehave lightly in the cities vvhichwhich profeſſe the goſpell / one onelyonly church of ſo many thowſand perſons? cōſidering that for the greater cō moditie of meeting / and gouerning the whole maſſe off Chriſtians in one citie / yt is deuided into ſeuerall churches / as it were flockes into ſeuerall feedinges. And if yow vvoulde hauehave proued any thinge / yow ſhoulde not hauehave conſidered howe the nomber off Chriſtians are increaſed in their cities: but howe they are encreaſed in their churches. And ſo yow ſhoulde hauehave founde that by your owne reaſon / the elections in the time off perſequution / owghte rather to hauehave bene made by one / and the electiōs now / by many: ſeinge in perſequuted churches / for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them ſelues into proportionable aſſemblies: the nomber beinge more / the danger off tumulte / and confuſion / muſte by yowr owne ſayinge be greater.

Yow ſaie yt is a verie good reaſon / that becauſe the churche was vnderunder the croſſe, therfore yt was few in nomber in compariſon: but yow anſwer not the auctoritie which I alledged / touchinge the Exo: 1. 12.encreaſe off the children of Iſraell / more vnderunder the croſſe / then in proſperitie. The reaſon yow add / off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche, hath ſmall force. For that there are in perſequuted churches manie hypocrites / maie appeare by the Iſraelites / which dred in perſequution / made often rebellions in the wildernes: likewiſe by the complaintes off S. Paul / that al ſought their owne not Phi. 2. 21. 2. Tim. 1. 15.Chriſtes / that al were turned from him.

That one example onelyonly / is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhichwhich yow put ſo generally: yet yowr one example off London, is not hable to confirme your pourpoſe: yt ſerueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie / and for no reaſon off yowr cawſe. And albeit the backſlyding from the Goſpell / was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies: yet there is no cauſe to picke Londō owte as the worſte / ſeinge there were great nombers there / which vvith haſarde off all they had / and of their lyues / frequented aſſemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached / and the Sacramētes purely adminiſtred: the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places / no (to our owne ſhame be yt ſpokē) not in the vniuerſitie / where of moſte righte / they ſhould hauehave beene.

What gaine yow by that the churche was diminiſhed in Ieruſalem? ſeinge the decreaſe of one churche / was the encreaſe off diuers other / wherunto thoſe off Ieruſalē adioined them ſelues. Therfore yow conclude not well / in ſainge that particular churches by perſecutions are diminiſhed, becauſe one churche off Ieruſalem was ſo: no more thē yow can ſaie / that a man hath a vvhite head / becauſe he hathe one white heare on his head. but I maie rather ſaie / that by perſequution the particular churches are encreaſed / for ſomuche as Samaria / and other churches were by that flight of Ieruſalem / partly adorned with teachers / partly augmented in diſciples. And therby is confirmed that I hauehave ſet downe / off the merueilous ſpawne off the churche vnderunder the croſſe: bothe becawſe euerye one dryuen from Ieruſalem / was as good ſeede which browght his hundreth / or fiftie folde: and for that after Ieruſalem was deliuered of that birthe / ſhe conceiued againe / and browghtforthe (as maie appeare) a greater nomber then before.21. Act. 20

What are my vvordes vverby I affirme / that the churches in time off perſecution meete often, and kepe together? yt is that I preciſely denie. Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke / to affirme I ſaie / that vvhichwhich I manifeſtly denie. And althowghe it be more clearer then the ſon̄e / that a ſmaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother / then a great: thoſe which dwell nere one to a nother / then that dwell farre of / and ſcattered: thoſe vvhichwhich meete oftener / then vvhichwhich meete ſeldomer: yet the A. dowbteth not to ſaie / that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe. Wher he alledgeth for profe / the often conference, and triall off eueryevery one before they be receiued: For the firſte / yt maie be eaſelie vnderſtanded / that ſeinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together / godly politie doothe teache them / to breake their companies as ſoone as they maie conueniently. And therfore the publicke action ended / off preaching / prayinge / and receiuing the Sacramentes: the conference which may be / and is commonly in the churches peace / one vvithe another / throwghe feare off the daunger / vvhichwhich maie come off being ſeene man it together / is cut off. As for the knowledge by triall off thoſe vvhichwhich are receiued into the churche / if he knewe that yt comethe onelyonly off the reporte off twoo / or three / which giuegive teſtimony off thoſe which are to be receiued: and that yt extendeth not to any vnderſtanding gyuen to the churche / off his giftes either of teaching / or gouernment / but onelyonly that he is a faithfull man: I ſaie if he knewe thes thinges / or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them: there ſhoulde be no cauſe vppon confidence off that triall / to faſten ſuch knowledge one of a nother, in a churche perſequuted.

Before I further anſwer the D. reaſon / touching the change Diuiſ. 2. pag 177. Hoſius de Sacram. ordinis cap. 54.of the manners of the Chriſtians in times off peace / from that they were vnderunder perſequution: vnderſtand good reader / that this is the very reaſon off the archpapiſt Hoſius / againſte the election off the church: which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie / and conſtantie in the Chriſtians vnderunder perſequution / and therfore that this manner off election by the biſhop / was browght in. nowe to Hoſius / and the D. I anſwer / that when wickednes breaketh into open actions / then they are no more Hypocrites / but openly wicked / and ſuche as owght not onelyonly be taken heed off: but without ſpeedy amendement / remoued. I graunte yt is no ſhame to the churches to hauehave Hypocrites / for aſmuche as the iudgement off man can not diſcerne them / and off them and none Math. 13. 29.other is the parable off tares / vvhichwhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off harueſt: and they are onelyonly thoſe which can not be rooted owte. But to ſaie that beſide thoſe which are corrupt in religion, yt is full off dronkardes, whoremongers, &c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moſte diffigured churches / he wrote vntounto. For how manie ſuche perſones as be founde in her: ſo manie botches hath ſhe / which doo not onelyonly ſtaine her bewtie / but put her in hazarde off her liffe. And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean 1. Cor. 5. 2perſon / thowght that all the Corinthians had good cauſe of mourning: ryuers off teares in eueryevery mans heade / are not ſufficient for vsus to bewaile / the eſtate vvhichwhich Maiſter D. telleth vsus wee be in: which by his ſaying / hauehave fewe ſober / fewe chaſte / &c.

I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew / are patched vpp together: and how there is neuer a one off them / vvhichwhich proueth that he taketh in hande / that there be in the churche open offenders / which can not be rooted owte. I giuegive vvarning onelyonly to the ſimple reader / that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the ſower / doo not alſo deceiue him. For there is nothinge les ment / then that where one hearethe the worde profitably, three doo the contrarie, vvhichwhich is bothe courious / and vncomfortable: onelyonly he ſheweth / that off fowre kindes off hearers / one onelyonly receiueth fruict: but off the nomber off thoſe which heare fruictfully / or otherwiſe / not a worde. And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Chriſte ſetteth downe / that in ſome places / that one ſorte of men vvhichwhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber / then all the other three vvhichwhich heare vvithout fruict. Yf wee ſhoulde ſaie that there is no church vvhere ſuche faultes be / or that for ſuche faultes we ſhoulde make a departure from the church: thes charges off Anabaptiſtrie vvhichwhich ſounde ſo often / and ſo full in your mouth… / mighte hauehave place. But that it is an Anabap…iſtic…l cauil to ſaie / that the multitude and ſwarme off knowen / and open faultes / argue wante off good gouernment / and wholſome diſcipline in the churche: yow are neuer able to ſhewe / nether yowr ſelfe by argumēt / nor owte of Maiſter Bull. or any other godly writer. Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing? Where in a ſyllable ys yt ſaide / that the goſpell can not be ſyncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare: yet whileſt yow confute this / Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt.

When I ſaie there be no knowen drunkardes / or vvhoremongers in the churche: I ſpeake off that vvhichwhich ſhoulde be / vntounto vvhichwhich meaning the tenure off my diſputacion would hauehave led yow / if yow had bene willinge to follow. For yow oppoſinge that for a bar vntounto the peoples election / theffecte off my anſwer was: that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this / that there be many ſuche dronkardes / and vvhore mongers: ſeinge they bothe maie / and owghte either be browght to repentance / and ſo are none ſuche as they were / or thruſte owte of the churche / ād ſo not hinder the election. This my meaning was cleare / and the man̄er of ſpeache if it had beene ſimply cōſidered / withowt circūſtances reſtraining to this meaning / is ſuch / as the ſcripture doth admit. As when Paul ſaithe / that the churchs of God hauehave no couſtome 1. Cor. 11. 16.to cōtende: he ſetteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies. For it may be that cōtention may cōtinew in a church many yeres: and yet it not ceaſe to be the churche of God. The proſperite of the Goſpell / ſheilded by authoritie of the Chriſtian magiſtrate / draweth by no neceſſitie vvith it / ſuche aboundance of vvicked as yow ſuppoſe. for althowghe hypocriſie may be more then vnderunder perſequution / yet knowen vvickednes / of whoredome / dronkennes / &c. may be eaſilier purged out Pſa. 101. 8. Pro. 20. 8.off the church / vnderunder a Chriſtian magiſtrate. So that the ſwarme off ſuche vvickednes vnderunder the Chriſtian magiſtate / more then vvhen there vvas none / is not the faulte off the time / but off the gouerners off churche / or commen vvealth / or bothe. As for hypocrites / I hauehave ſhewed that there is not ſo great daunger in them: conſideringe that their owteward doinges are the ſame vvith the children off God / and the difference is onelyonly in the harte. Which althowghe yow denie: yet my reaſon drawne of the nature off an hypocrite / yow doo quite paſſe by.

That vvhichwhich yow call the proſperitie, mighte vvell be called Diuiſ. 3. pag. 178.the croſſe / and vvhip of the goſpell: yf it drewe ſuche a taile off ſynne / as yow ſuppoſe. For if vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate / either alwaies / or for the moſte parte / not onelyonly the nomber off hypocrites / but of barefaced / ād knowē wicked / ſhoulde be multiplied: and not that onelyonly / but the good them ſelues ſhoulde wax worſe: that time mighte peraduenture after a ſorte / be called the proſperitie of thoſe which profeſſe the goſpel: but how the goſpell maie be ſaide thē to proſper / which is ſo manie waies plucked downe / I can not vnderſtād. And this is cleane cōtrarie to the fruictes of peace / which the ſcripture declareth. The Prophet as ſoone as he Nah. 1. ca. 15.had ſpokē of peace / vvhichwhich ſhoulde be publiſhed amōgeſt the Iewes: addeth that Iuda ſhoulde then kepe her ſolemne feaſtes, performe her vovves, becauſe the vvicked enemie off the churche, vvas cut off. Wherby he doothe not onelyonly ſhewe / that the ende off the peace of the church / is to ſerue god more wholy then before: but alſo that the peace gaue them more commoditie off ſeruinge off God / then they coulde hauehave in time of perſequution. And if yow replie that ſo it ſhoulde be / but it is not: the anſwer is / if it be not ſo / yt is throwghe the greate / and vnexcuſable faulte off all / and gouernoures eſpeciallie: vvhichwhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines / ſuffer it to goe to vvracke.

But that peace off it ſelfe is an aide to godlie increaſe / and confirmacion off the church: yt is manifeſte / by that all the churches in Iurie, Galile, and Samaria, beinge in peace vvere edified, Act. 9. 31.and vvalking in the feare off God, vvere multiplied. Now if they in the time off peace multiplied / hauinge no further aide of the magiſtrate / then that he hurte them not: vvhat condemnatiō ſhall yt be / if our churches vvhichwhich hauehave aſſiſtance off the magiſtrate / cannot vpholde them in that feare off God / but they muſte fall into ſuche riote / as the A. ſuppoſeth? And if multiplying off open wickednes / and decreaſe of former godlines vvere ſo generall / and ſo incident to the peace off the goſpell / as yow pretende: there is no cauſe vvhy vvee ſhoulde praie ſo earneſtly / and often for it / nai rather there ſhoulde be good cauſe / off praying againſte it. For when it is giuē vsus of God / partlie for our eaſe / and eſpecially for the glorie of God in encreaſe of all vertue: the cheife parte vvhichwhich is the glorie off God / beinge by yow ſhutte owte: there is no cauſe vvhy vve ſhoulde praie for the other. Yowr reaſon of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off perſequution, then in the peace of the goſpell, is very inſufficiēte: eſpecially to that yow vſe it vntounto / off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off perſequution / then in peace. conſidering that thoſe wicked which neuer were in perſequution / nor hauehave that ſpirite vvhichwhich is often times ſharpened / and quickedned by perſequution: knowe notwithſtanding the miſteries of God / as the children of God them ſelues. And althowghe the perſequution ſhoulde giuegive ſome aduancement to knowledge that waies: yet it hindreth more otherwaies / in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God / vvherby knowledge is bredd: in that alſo pouertie (wher with it is cōtinually yoked) draweth many cares for this preſent life / for them / and theirs. Likwiſe continuall feare they be in / euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God (enemie vntounto the vnderſtanding / and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde / vvherwith knowledge is gotten) and alſo the often / and ſoudein ſhiftinges from place / to place: muſte needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge / in the vvord off God. Where yow call vponupon anſwer vntounto your reaſon: yow hauehave it / that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the profeſſors off the goſpell / then the time of perſequution: and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte / to be euill aſſigned. I alledged alſo / that the elections off the biſhoppes vvere ſo euill and of ſo vnfitte perſones / that althowgh the election off the churche ſhoulde ſwarue muche: yet it can hardly chooſe vvorſe / then the biſhopes doo / wherunto yow anſwer not.

The diſtinction of being of the churche, and in the church, I browghte / and allowed of it: yet as thowgh yow had browght Diuiſ. 4. pag. 179.it / and I refuſed it / yow labour in confirmation of it. But that which needeth yowr helpe / and for proofe wherof I aſke ſome teſtimonie of ſcripture / that Idolaters, and papiſtes are in the church, is not proued. As for dronkardes / and whoremongers / 2c. Yt is ſpoken off before: cloſe papiſtes / and Atheiſtes which diſſemble their vvickednes / are in the nomber off Hipocrites / and therfore muſte be holden to be in the church / vntil the Lorde diſcouer them. For profeſſed Papiſtes / and Atheiſtes / which neuer made profeſſion off the goſpell / it is not needefull to waite for the ſentence off excomnnication to cut them of / ſeinge they vver neuer of the church. If notwithſtandinge their profeſſed enemitie vntounto the goſpell, they ſhould be accounted off the church, becauſe they agree to heare the worde and receiue the ſacrament with vsus: then a Turcke / or a Iew profeſſinge his Turkiſme / or Iudaiſme / if he be contented to heare the worde / and receiue the Sacrament / is ſo alſo to be accoumpted. Which if it be abſurd / it can be no good reaſon to ſaie / that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche / becauſe they are in ſome reſpectes contente to he are the worde / and receiue the Sacramentes.

And I vvoulde gladly learne / where the Lord hath vvilled vsus / ſo to caſte awaie the vſe of our iudgement / that when men make open profeſſion that they are members off the bodie of the Pope / which is Antchriſte / yet wee muſte accounte off them as off members off Chriſte: or howe this is to iudge iuſtlie. Yow 7. Ioh. 14.are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually. I nether ſaie / that Hypocrites onelyonly are in the church, and not of yt: and the place in the margent / I alleadge to another purpoſe then 1. Cor. 5. 12.yow affirme / that is / to proue that the papiſtes / and Idolaters beinge vvithowte / hauehave not to doo with the church / nor the churche vvith them. where yow woulde proue by thoſe wordes / if any brother be an Idolater, that Idolaters maie be in the churche: yow muſte vnderſtand / firſte that it is one caſe off him that hath giuen his name to the goſpell / and afterward ſlydeth from that profeſſion to Idolatrie: and another of him vvhichwhich neuer gaue it / but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater. For althowghe the firſte can not be ſeuered from the church / withowt ſolemne ſentence of excōmunication / becauſe by a publike profeſſion off the trwth / he was once receiued into the bodie therof: yet there is not lyke reaſon off him / which was neuer ſo ſetled. And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make / when he giueth leaue to a Chriſtian to 1. Cor. 5. 11.hauehave to doo with an Idolater of the worlde / that is which hath not bene of the churche: and yet will not ſuffer him to hauehave to doo with one / which is famouſly knovven (for ſo the the word ſignifieth) foreign.to be a brother. Wheruppon followeth / that forſomuche as our Idolaters profeſſinge their poperie ſtill / are not / nor can not be famouſly knowen for profeſſors off the goſpell: this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them / to enter into the churche.

Furthermore yt muſte be obſerued / what kinde off Idolatrie yt is / which Saint Paule ſaithe maie fall into a brother / and yet he reteine the name of brother. This appeareth vponupon the diſcourſe 1. Cor. 8. & 10.he maketh in that Epiſtle / to hauehave bene onelyonly a ſittinge downe to eate at the feaſte of Idolaters / made in honour of their Idoles / withowt any honour doone to idoles by ſacrifice / or bodily vvorſhip / and vvithowt anie conſcience of that meate more then of other. Which althowghe he proue a ſpice of Idolatrie: yet was yt one of the leaſie / and lighteſte kindes / and ſuch as holdinge ſtil the foundacione off Chriſtianitie / coulde not vvithowt obſtinacie in it / cut from the church. Wherby falle the owte / that the papiſtes vvhichwhich in their Idolatrie raſe the foundations of trewe religion / can not by that place / come into anie accounte off the church off God.

For the firſt place off Maiſter Caluin / that there are in the Church contemners off God, and vvhichwhich lyue diſſolutely: if the S. had added the nexte wordes that ſuche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication: he might hauehave bene aſ hamed / to alledge this ſentence to ſo ſmall purpoſe. The other that Saint Paul meaneth the abſteining from a diſordered 1. Cor. 5. 11.brother off priuate ſocietie / and not of the publicke communion: yt is true in deede but to no purpoſe. For withal he confeſſeth / that the other owght to be ſeuered from the communion. But foraſmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate / that perteining (as he ſaith) vntounto whole bodie off the churche / by whoſe cōſent yt owght to be doone / and yet in his power to kepe him ſelfe from his priuate ſocietie: he concludeth againſt the Anabapt. which abſteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offenſiuely were receiued / that it folowed not becauſe S. Paul woulde hauehave one abſteine frō priuate familiaritie / therfore he would hauehave him abſteine from the communion. Which is no parte off our queſtion / and is too ſhamefully alledged / conſidering that the place making nothing to this queſtion / ſtriketh ſtarcke dead another off his cawſes / towching the ſole excommunication of the biſhopp. And althowghe it be owte off place / yet hauing gotten the booke / yt ſhall not be vnprofitable / to admoniſhe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maiſter Caluin / for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the diſcipline is not of the ſubſtantiall notes of the churche / alledgeth a ſentence owt off this booke: beſide that I hauehave ſhewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes / it is to be noted that in the ſame booke he affirmethe preciſely / that the diſcipline is required to the ſubſtance off the church onelyonly he denieth that vvhichwhich the Anabaptiſt. helde / that there was no churche / where there was no excommunication. Likewiſe pa. 90. where he would make vsus beleue / that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maiſter Caluin iudgement vnderſtanded off publicke offences / Mai. Caluins declareth onelyonly that thoſe priuate admonitions / doo not belonge vntounto publicke offences: but that thoſe publike offenders ought to be excommunicated / if they reſte not in the churches Iudgement / and conſequently firſt complainned of to the churche (Which are two off the Eccleſiaſticall cenſures / mentioned in that place off S. Mathew) he dothe more then once or twiſe affirme. Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vsus returne. if al were trwe yow alledge here (as they are very vntrwe) yet they helpe not. For yow vvill not denie / but dronkardes / vvhoremongers / papiſtes / &c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance / or owte off the churche: which whether ſoeuer come to paſſe / taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge / againſte the election off the church. So that onles yow meane to nouriſhe them in the churche / as bandogges to kepe owte this election: this barre againſte it / is eaſely remoued.

It is appointed vntounto the magiſtrate by the word off God / that he ſhoulde not onelie prouide that his ſubiectes liue paceably / one with another: but alſo and that eſpecially / to ſee that they 2. Tim. 2. 2.hauing the trwe knowledge of God / maie ſerue him as he hathe preſcribed. This waie off gathering them to the nexte pariſhes / ſeemed vntounto me fitteſte to be vſed in that caſe: if yow can ſhewe better / mine ſhall giuegive place. OnelyOnly therfore I made mention of it / to ſhewe that the impoſſibilitie vvhichwhich yow ſo often caſte in the teeth of the reformacion / can hauehave no place: if they continewe vncorrigible / I hauehave before ſhewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vntounto the magiſtrate / to vſe cutting / and burning / and nether to ſuffer God to be diſhonored in them / nor the reſte off his ſubiectes infected. If they can be diſcerned for dogges or ſwine, vvhichwhich are not onelyonly filthie (in vvhichwhich regarde I called dronkardes / &c. Swine) but alſo treade the worde vnderunder their feete: then I graunte / he vvhichwhich hath that iudgement off them aſſured by the teſtimonie of the ſpirite of God / owghte not to teache them. But this cōmeth owte of time. For I made no mention off dogges / and the name off ſwine I gaue not to the papiſtes / but to filthie liuers: and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpoſe: for if they maie not heare the worde / muche leſſe can they be off the church. The preuenting off an obiection / is no digreſsion: vvhether yt bee friuolous, the iudgement ſhall bee with the reader.

I tooke the likelieſt ſignification off yowr worde eſtabliſhed: Diuiſ. 5. pa. 181.which is / ſurely grounded withowte remoue / and which hathe all the partes off a church: nowe I ſee that by (eſtabliſhed) yow meane allowed by the magiſtrate. Althowghe I hauehave ſhewed before by ſtorie / that there were churches then / which had maintenance of the magiſtrate: yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me / not helpeth yow / I wil not ſtriue. ſpeake of the church viſible / ſtanding off good / and euill / of the owtwarde gouernment of the church / vvhichwhich ſtandeth in adminiſtring off the word / and Sacramentes / and exerciſe of all partes off church diſcipline: and that I hauehave ſhewed to hauehave all her partes / althowghe not all her ornamentes. Which I did not withowt reaſon annexed / againſte which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion / and a charge off ignorance off that diſtinction, which I my ſelfe did firſt propounde. towchinge this that the cyuill magiſtrate is not the heade off the churche / yt falleth into the queſtiō of the Archbiſhop / where it ſhall be (god willing) handled.

That he ſaithe that the ſtate off the churche was in the Apoſtles tyme popular: by his owne iudgement (which gyueth the name vntounto the forme of gouernment, of that parte which moſte rulethe) is vntrwe. for the State off the beſte, did beare the greateſte rule: conſidering that there were matters belonginge vntounto the church doone by the elderſhipp / wherat the people were not / nor coulde not by any conuenience be preſent / yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required / wherin the Elderſhipp was not bothe preſent / and preſident. And this ſaying off the D. that the people in the Apoſtels times, had to doo almoſte in eueryevery thinge: is directly contrarie to that he hath before diſcourſed. For to the Admo. and me oppoſing the places off the Actes / where Act. 1. 14: 15.thinges were doone ether by voice / or conſent off the church: his anſwer hath bene / that the churche had nothing to doo there / but onelyonly in the election off the Deacons / and that popularitie he Act. 6.affirmeth to hauehave bene / not in reſpecte that the church was vnderunder perſequution / as here in this place: but for a ſpeciall cauſe off contention / then in the church. Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maiſter D. What are thoſe places off ſcripture / wherby he will proue that the moſte thinges in gouernment / were doone by conſent off the people: if thoſe places wee haūe alledged / doo not proue yt. That which yow ad / off the conuenience that nothing ſhoulde be doone in the church, withowte the conſent, and knowledge of the magiſtrate: yowr addition taketh nothing from the conſent of the churche. For the magiſtrates conſente / and the churches are not at warre: but one may / hathe / and dothe ſtande well vvith the other. Becauſe the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable: I leaue yt in the readers iudgement / howe trwly / and withowte bragge, or figure I hauehave ſpoken. But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cauſe ſhoulde be neuer the better / onles yow can ſhewe / that thoſe differences pull with them / a neceſſitie off change off the forme off election: vvhichwhich yow nether doo / nor can.

That one churche ſhoulde admoniſhe another, and that there are Diuiſ. 6. Pag. 183. Diuiſ. 4. pa. 173 & pa. 175.many Hypocrites vnderunder perſequution, is before ſhewed. Off wicked miniſters which had their followers / and louers in the churches of God / vvhichwhich notwithſtanding kepinge the profeſſion off the goſpell / were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte / is ſpoken off almoſte throwghe all the epiſtles off Saint Paule. yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole courſe of the eccleſiaſticall ſtories / that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians / partly Neſtorians / and eſpecially of the Nouatians / were perſequuted / and baniſhed of heathen Emperours / together vvith the catholike church of Chriſte. And it appeareth plainly / by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him / did chuſe vnmeet miniſters. Therfore Maiſter D. doth wounderfully forget him ſelfe / when he ſaithe / that yt is not lyke that the churche in perſequution will chuſe an vnmeete, or wicked myniſter or that they which ſuffer perſequution for the goſpell, doo yt allwaies off conſcience, or off good conſcience / wheroff the queſtion is. And if he vvill admitte none off thes proſes / yet if he ſtand vntounto his expoſition off the parable of the ſower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew / forſomuch as (according to his ſaying) for one in the church which heareth profitablie, three doo the contrarie: yt muſte follow that euen in the perſequuted churche / there muſte be thriſe as manie euill / as good. Onles peraduenture he will ſaie / that our S. Chriſte ſpake that off the eſtate off the church in time off the ciuill magiſtrate / which was ſpoken off the whole eſtate off the churche / vntounto the worldes end: and eſpecially to that preſent churche / which was vnderunder the croſſe.

Ys it trewe vvhichwhich yow heere affirme? can yt not be otherwiſe in the time off perſequution, but that churche offices muſte be choſen by common conſent? Howe cometh then to paſſe / that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to hauehave bene made with the conſent off the churche? How happeneth yt that yow affirme / that Timothe. and Titus off their owne authorities, withowt the conſente ether off elderſhipp / or people appoincted miniſters vntounto the churches, in Epheſus, and Creata? that in Cyprians times (which were times of perſequution) the electiō vvas made in ſome places vvithowt the people? verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner / which ſhould ſet the… together for the impoſſibilitie which yow imagine / yt is not ſuch but that if the commoditie of the churche / and the inſtitution off God had ſo ſuffred: the churches woulde hauehave ſubmitted them ſelues / and their voices in their elections / vntounto the order of one. And beſides that chriſtian humilitie / and louelove off aduancing the trwth for which they had forſaken all / woulde hauehave let them to that ſubmiſſion there was Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline to driue them vntounto it. Onles they woulde rather quittethe church / which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale / which yow (for yowr aduantage) aſcribe vntounto a perſequuted church.

HEere he denieth that he hath ſaide, that the conſent off the churche in Cap. 6. Diu. 7. p. 184. &c.the choiſe off the miniſter, can not ſtand with the time off the Chriſtian magiſtrate. All the reaſons vvhichwhich he alledged are to proue / that the election vnderunder a Chriſtian magiſtrate / can nor be ſafelye / and conuenientlie committed vntounto the churche: and euē here he ſaith / it is in thes times pernicious, and hurtfull. But that which can not be ſafely / and cōueniently doone / owghte not be doone: muche les that vvhichwhich is pernicious / and hurtfull. Therfore if yow thinke as yow ſpeake / yow think as I hauehave ſaide: that the churches election can not ſtand / with the time of A Chriſtian magiſtrat. And your ſalue wherwith yow woulde plaſter yt / that the ciuill magiſtrate maie ordeine ſo if he liſte, is nothing worth. For if it be daungerous / if yt be inconuenient (as yow ſay) to committe the election to the churche: he owgte not althowge he woulde / giuegive it into her handes.

Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magiſtrate to order that matter / becauſe the Emperours made lawes off the election, which they woulde not hauehave doone, yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God: yow are to farre wyde. For wee reade that Aza made a lawe / that who ſoeuer did not ſeeke the Lord / ſhould die. Chron. 2. 15. 13.And there are lawes made with vsus that men ſhall heare the worde off God / and receiue the ſacramentes: and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God / and vnchangable: nether is yt at the pleaſure off any magiſtrate to order them otherwiſe. Yf the reaſons vvhichwhich Muſc. bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche / can be anſwered / then I will leaue them / and followe his authoritie: otherwiſe I accounte that althowghe he wraſtel with it vvith his lefte hand / yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte.

T. C. concealed nothing ſubtilely, in leauing owt that the miniſters ovvght to be blameles: he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for / or againſte the pourpoſe. If the A. had conſidered what I proue owt of this place: ether he ſhould hauehave omitted this / or ſpoken yt againſte his conſciēce. For I propounded onelye / that the election off the churche / was both in the times of the Chriſtiā magiſtrate / and cōfirmed by them: and the D. can not denie / but this place proueth that fully. whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apoſtles / or no: I ſhewed before. Therfore this diſputation is with your ſelfe / and with nothing which I ſet downe. And if I had ſo ſet it downe / whether the decree off the Emperour would hauehave borne yt owt / conſidering that the ſentence which I lefte / owghte to be ſhut in a parentheſis: I leaue yt vntounto the iudgement of the reader. As for the reaſons vvhichwhich are vſed for that pourpoſe / the one that he would hauehave ſaid decre…, and not wee decree: is anſwered before. Thother of propounding three, owt of which one ſhould be knowen not practiſed at any tyme by the Apoſtles: is not ſufficient to proue / that the Emperour did not ſet before him / their example: ſeing that in the principall poinctes / and cauſes off the election (amongeſt which the chuſers are the efficient) he kepte him ſelffe vntounto the election of the Apoſtles. Yea if it be well conſidered / yt ſhall be eaſely perceiued / that he ſtucke too curiouſly / and preciſely vntounto the election Actes 1. whileſt as there were two ſett vp / of which one ſhould be taken: ſo in a grater multitude he would hauehave three / out of which he would drawe one. And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apoſtles / were onelyonly as yow would hauehave yt / that the moſte pure ſhould be taken: yet yow can not denie / but the Emperour tooke this to be the beſt way / to hauehave moſt incorrupt miniſters: that the election ſhould be made by the inhabitantes off the citie. Howbeit becauſe I propounded onelyonly to proue / that elections by the church hauehave bene confirmed by Emperours: I will not ſtriue with him in this point / becauſe I will ſtop vp the holes as muche as may be / wherat he breaketh owt alwaies / from that which is in queſtion.

Yt were an euill interpretation / to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie / the cheife off the citie: eſpecially conſidering that the decree of other Emperours vvhichwhich followed / ordeined that the miniſter ſhould be choſen by all the people. And conſidering that the Nouelles in latin / are corrupte in many places: yt is vnreaſonable to expound the Code / and other lawes by them / eſpecially with ſuch open violence. And yt may be that the translator in ſteed off the heades of families / put the heades off the citie: but for this alſo I will not ſtriue. What ether againſt my cauſe / or for yowres / conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three, which were choſen after that ſort? Likewiſe what gaine yow / if (which is vntrue / or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe ſides) a man ſhould accord yow / that Charles the great, was Emperour of the French, and not off the Duch? Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cauſe / which yow would ſo faine ſhifte yowr handes of. The ſhelter alſo yow ſeke in thoſe wordes (according to the canons off that dioceſe) will not holde owt the whether. For although it might be therby gathered / that there vvere ſeuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceſes: yet it is plaine by his wordes / that the elections vvere throvvgh ovvt, made by the church: vvhichwhich is that vve deſire.

Becauſe yow buſie yowr ſelfe ſo much to proue / that this was not decreed by autoritie of the vvord of God / althowgh yt be not that vvhichwhich I tooke in hand to proue: yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully. And albeyt he ſaied not according to the rules of the Apoſtles, yet he ſaith that in effect. For in ſaing that the church ſhould vſe that election in the name, and authoritie off god: what is yt els / but that god hath ſo ordeined: And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church, which he giueth not him ſelfe / but aſſenteth vntounto: he declareth yt incident to the church. And what a reaſon is this / Thēperour for bad that any man ſhoulde ſpoile the churches of their elections: therfore it was in the Emperours powre, to take awaie the election from the churches? Which is in this diuiſion for feare of forgetting / fowre times repeted: ād vnworthy once to be cōfuted / as I hauehave before declared. And as that which the A. alledgeth off the reſt of the decree / maketh nothing to proue / that the electiō off the church is in the Emperours powre: ſo that which im̄ediatly foloweth / vvhichwhich he hydeth in (&c.) doth manifeſtly proue / that he helde yt for grounded of the vvord off God / that the churches ſhould hauehave the election off their myniſters. For he addeth / Becauſe vve hauehave bene tavvght by the holie fathers, that this thing (that is to ſaie the taking awaie off the election from the church / as the D. himſelfe expoundeth yt) is moſt greuous ſynne. If therfore it be greuous ſynne to ſpoile the church 1. Iohn. 3. 4.of this honor / and ſynne is defined the breach of the law off god: yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God / that the church ſhould chuſe her miniſter.

And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte: I could hauehave cited diuers teſtimonies / which Illyricus vſeth / wherby this off the vnchangeable neceſſitie off the election by the church / is confirmed. Lib. 4. inſtit ca. 4. ſect. 11. 5. cha. 2. ſe.As that Leo the firſte affirmeth / that no reaſon ſuffereth that he ſhould be biſhop, vvhichwhich is not choſen by the people: alledged / and preſſed againſt the Papiſtes off Maiſter Caluin to the ſame pourpoſe. Which place how violently / and vnfaithfully yt is wreſted off the D. in the end of this treatiſe ſhall be conſidered. Alſo that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth / and Celeſtine which confirmed the ſame ordinance vvith this teſtimonie. it is not conuenient, and yt is againſte reaſon yt ſhould be othervviſe. Likewiſe owt off the epiſtles off the Archbiſhop off Reines in Fraunce / vvho diuers times vſeth this ſaying / he ovvght to be choſen of all, vvhom all muſt gyue obedience vntounto. Laſt off all a whole treatiſe owt of the ſecond booke of Cuſanus: vvhichwhich proueth of diuers places out off the ſcripture / Cyprian / and canon Lawe: that yt is no conſtitution off men / but the lawe off God / that the miniſter ſhould be choſen off the church: and that vvhoſoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means, entreth not in by the doore, but is a theſe and a murtherer. Thes I would hauehave browght at large / if I had not contented my ſelfe with proofes owt of the ſcripture / for the neceſſitie off yt: which I here hauehave ſhortly ſet downe / becauſe I ſee the D. more afraied off the iudgemēt off the auncient church / then of the ſcripture. ſo that althowgh yt be a ſlender buckler to ſhild him ſelfe / that the conſtitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god (wheras he ſhould rather hauehave ſhewed that they proteſted in their lawes off the indifferencie / againſte the neceſſitie off it): yet euen that buckler alſo is by diuers Teſtymonies / taken from him.

Yt is a poore falſifying off Platina, vvhichwhich is nothing but change Diuiſ. 8. pag. 186. 187.of one worde for another / without any gaine at al. For the Emperours cōmendacion ſerueth me as well / to proue that the election of the church was alowed of / and confirmed of the ciuill magiſtrate: as if he had commaunded yt. The ſecond place off Platina proueth nothing les / then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election: ſeinge that he nether made / nor altered any forme off Election / but onelyonly off two Elections by the people / mainteined that vvhichwhich vvas lawfull. Seinge alſo Platina / ſuppoſeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour / but by the reſignation off the Biſhopp: if that place proue any thing / or thother after alledged owte off Bale / and Barnes: they proue that yt was in the Biſhoppes hande / to order yt at his pleaſure. Which howe vntrwe yt ys / maie be conſidered off that vvhichwhich hath bene before ſpoken / againſte the ſole election off the Biſhopp: and off that vvhichwhich is here confeſſed / that the Biſhopp of Rome began to vſurpe, that which belonged not vntounto hym. For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right: no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the poſſeſſion off the church.

Where he ſaith / yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuſe, was graunted by Charles the greate: note alſo tha… that note / is worth nothing. For where he would hauehave yt ſeeme / that he was the firſte that gaue that libertie: he is confuted manifeſtly by the wordes off Charles / a litle before alledged: vvho ſpeaketh of that election / as of a thing accuſtomed of ould / and doth not make any newe lawe therof / but gyueth his aſſent vntounto thoſe which vvere made. The vvordes yow aſcribe to me (that the electiō perteineth not to the Emperour) I hauehave not: I kepte the very wordes of Platina / and nether added / nor tooke awaie from them. Where yow vvould ſeme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde (creating) that the Emperour choſe Leo: yt is but an abuſing of the reader. For Platina in the next chapter ſauing one / vvhere he ſpeaketh of Leos election / declareth that that creation vvas nothing els / but a confirmacion of the election made by the people / and clergie.

Therfore I ſaide the Emperours permitted the elections Diuiſ. 9. pag. 187.vntounto the churches, becauſe by powre / and violence they might hauehave taken them from them: vvherfore yt followethe not / that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe, take them from the churche. When yt is ſaide in the ſtories / that the Emperous permitted vntounto the churches the exerciſe off their religion: maie yt therby be concluded / that it was at their pleaſure / to hauehave without offence of God reſtrained them of that libertie? verely I am aſhamed to confute / vvhichwhich the D. is not aſhamed to obiecte. Yet the teſtimonies alledged / make no mention of this word (permiſsion) wherby this aduantage (yf yt vvere anie) ſhould betaken.

Yow might eaſelie hauehave forgiuen me this fault / where the iniurie which I doo is a gainſt my ſelfe. For where I might hauehave 10. Diuiſ. pag. 188.vſed the authorie off the Centuries / to the vtter reiection off the canon off the councell off Laodicea; I vſed yt onelyonly to bringe the canon into ſuſpicion / whether yt vvere made then or no. If I had had the booke before me / yow might well thinke I would not hauehave doone my ſelfe that wrong. As for the Canon I hauehave ſhewed bothe by the conference off other councels / and authoritie / of Caluin / and Beza / that yt can not be vnderſtanded to ſeclude the people from the election / but tendeth onelyonly to the directing In the 4. cap 7. di. pa. 193.of them / by the foreiudgemente of the elders. And wheras to the authoritie off Calu. which I allege owt of the Actes / he oppoſeth his authoritie in the Inſtitutiōs: beſides that faulte vvhichwhich he reprocheth me with / off oppoſinge the authors vntounto them ſelues: the vntruth off it is ſhewed in the former place / neither can the A. hauehave excuſe off his moſte vnfaithfull dealing. For as well in the edition he foloweth / as in the later: this iudgement touching the canon / is not once / but twiſe ſet downe / not ſimply / but with confirmacion off the decree off Leo the firſte / and that in the ſame ſection / owt off which he hath fetched thes wordes. If he will ſtil ſpeake againſt the ſonne / and denie that which he doth ſo plainly affirme / touching the vſe off the churches election onelyonly in the Apoſtel… times, and times off perſequution: I can doo no more / but leaue it to the iudgement off the reader / referring him to the places vvhere he ſaith / that this election endured vntounto Cyprians times, and to his whole diſputation wherby he goeth aboute to proue / that this election can by no means be conuenient for the proſperitie off the goſpell.

The exception he maketh againſte the peace off the church / in the time off Conſtantine / becauſe Maxentius, and Lycinius perſequuted yt, is nothing to the purpoſe. For Albeit the churches vnderunder them / were in perſequution: yet thoſe vnderunder Conſtantine were quiet. And euen vnderunder Licinius the church vvas at quiet for a time. Euſeb. 9. lib: 9. ca.For Conſtantine, and Lycinius made a moſte perfecte, and full decree for the peace off the church: and by their letters ſente to Maximinus (vvhichwhich vvas then the perſequutor in the Eaſt) procured peace there. So that the peace was generall throwgh the churches. And althowgh that peace was in certein partes broken of: yet yt appeareth / that both Lycinius Maxentius / and Maximinus being taken awaie / Conſtantine obtained dominiō 1. li. Socr. 1 cap. 1. Theod. cap. 1. Diuiſ. 11. pag. 189. Theod. 1. lib. ca. 8.ouer the whole empire / and pourchaſed peace vntounto the whole church.

When the Nicene Councell alloweth not off the election off the clergie / vnles the perſon choſen be both worthy / and likewiſe choſen by the people: can there be any plainer wordes inuented / to confirme that I hauehave ſet downe? And vvhere he vvould darken ſo cleare a light / by wordes vvhichwhich ſaie that thoſe thinges belonged peculiarly to Aegypte, and to the church of Alexandria, as if this order off election by the church / vvere not holden good in other places: he dooth but as a man which hath made ſhipwracke / ſnatcheth at eueryevery thing he can laye holde off / at all aduenture. For Ariu… hereſie bearing ſway in thoſe partes / draue the councell to enter into certaine peculiar conſiderations off them: but that the election off the church / was a peculiar thinge vntounto thoſe prouinces / yt is too abſurde. For what wiſdome off the councell ſhoulde yt be / to permitte that vntounto the people in thoſe places / which were moſte corrupte with Arianiſme: yf other places of the worlde / vvhichwhich vvere ſounder then they / had not that priuiledge? And if the foreſaied wordes / cauſe this condition ſo that the people chuſe, to be a peculiar thing vntounto thoſe places: then yt followeth / that thother condition vvhichwhich is ioined vvith yt / was likewiſe / that he vvhichwhich vvas choſen ſhould be meet to be choſen: vvhichwhich no man that hath not loſte his ſenſes / vvill euer ſaie. So that wee ſtill hauehave the councell off Nice / confirming abſolutly the election off the church. As for Grineus he maketh nothing to this matter. for the right off the clergie, ſhutteth not owt the churches.Diuiſ. 12. pag. 190: li. 9. c. 14.

The wordes off the tripartite ſtorie / are as I hauehave alledged / and the wordes of Theodoret hauehave nothing to the contrarie: onelyonly the D. muſt ſaie ſomething. Thouching the next diuiſion I leaue yt to be iudged / whether I hauehave ſhewed that vvhichwhich the A. ſaith I hauehave not.

It is neuer a whit the better / althowgh thoſe yow alledge / 14 Diuiſ. pa. 101.and all the world ſhould allow of that ſentence yow bring forth / vnderunder Ambroſes credit. I vſed no contempte towardes Ambroſe / nether hauehave I ſo much as reiected him: onelyonly that ſentence as blaſphemns againſt the gouernment off the Apoſtels / Ideteſted / and yt owght to hauehave bene mainteined by confutation off reaſones I alledged / and not by bare autoritie. For yf that had bene enoughe to wype awaie that place: I had a great deale more manifeſter againſte yt / then yow be hable to alledge for yt. For VponUpon the 4. Epheſ.of that place off Ambroſe Caluin writeth thus. As for thoſe thinges vvhichwhich are redde in the cōmentaries off Ambroſe, they are too childiſ he, and vnvvorthy of Ambr. And yow doo but coulor this matter vvith the names off Georgius / &c. Which what they ſaye / I reporte me to thoſe that hauehave the bookes to ſee: aſſured notwithſtanding / that if they had any thing for yow / yow woulde hauehave made them ſpeake.

If yow would hauehave doone ſymply / yow ſhould hauehave named 3. li Eccl. Hier. c. 7.Pighius / who proueth diuerſitie of gouernmēt off the church / as yow doo by this counterfaite place of Amb. As for the ſhifte wherwith the D. Would helpe it / that yt was permitted to al mē to preach, and miniſter the ſacramentes, but not withowt a calling: yt is ſpoken witthowt reaſon. For what needed there / or howe can there be a calling / when all were vſed to the ſeruice of the miniſtrie? Seing that calling is a ſeperatiō from other by electiō / and electiō is choiſe of ſome / with leuinge off other ſome: And the churche of Chriſte is a bodie ſtanding off manie members / and not all an eie / or 1. Cor. 12▪ 14.any other one mēber. And for that there were manie in the time off the Apoſtles / vvhichwhich had not ether knowledge / or dexteritie to teach: yt can not be ſaide vvithout making the Apoſtles / Authors of horrible confuſion / that they called all men to the miniſterie off the vvorde / and ſacramentes. That vvhichwhich is browght owt off Bull. and Sleidan / is but filling vpp of paper. For they condemne not the Anabaptiſtes / becauſe they choſe their miniſters: but that they excluded the authoritie of the magiſtrate.

Your reproches heere are anſwered. I gaue yow as readie a waie to finde thoſe teſtimonies / as I had giuen me. If yow tooke Diu. 15. p. 193.yt owte off Muſculus yowr ſelfe / then mighte hauehave noted the place: if yow had yt of others / yow ſhould hauehave named yowr collector / as I did mine. Heere is occaſion taken to repeate / and translate a great deale owt of Muſculus / but nothing to purpoſe. For I denie not / but that he is off Iudgement / that a man conſtrained by corruption off tymes / maie departe from the Apoſtolicall election ſhuttinge owt the people: but I denie that that is warranted by ſubſtantial argumentes. Beſide I hauehave ſhewed / that heere in wordes againſt vsus / in his reaſons he ſtādeth for vsus. Which ſhall beſte be vnſterſtanded / in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole / hath mangled them / and ſnatched here and there a worde: if peraduenture vntwiſted he might deale with them / which otherwiſe he coulde not breake. For where I cited owt off Muſculus that yt is a boundage vntounto the church, to hauehave their miniſter thruſte vppon yt vvithovvt choiſe off the people: he anſwereth / that ſubiection to magiſtrates is no bondage: wherin he toucheth nether heauen / nor earth. For he ſhould hauehave anſwered as vntounto Muſculus / and not as vntounto me: conſidering that I alledged that owt off him / off vvhome he hath taken all his reaſons. And therfore the note off Anabaptiſme, which he markethe all thoſe vvith / that ſaie yt is bondage vntounto the churche, to hauehave their paſtor thruſt vppon them: lighteth vppon Muſculus / vvhichwhich thus ſpeaketh / and affirmeth yt conſtantly.

Then his anſwer is abegging off that in queſtion / when he ſaith / that ſubiection in lawfull matters is no bondage: yt being in queſtion vvhether yt be lawfull for the magiſtrate / to take awaie the election from the church. To that alſo owt of Muſculus / that the miniſter choſen by the church maie rule vvith a good cō ſcience / and the people obey vntounto him / eaſelier / then vvhen he cometh in againſte their will: and thervppon concluded / that foraſmuche as that manner of election is to be followed / vvhichwhich maketh moſte to aſſure the myniſters cōſcience of his calling / and that the people ſhould be more obedient vntounto his doctrine / therfore that onelyonly vvas to be holden: his anſwer is / that he maie be aſſured otherwiſe, and that the people otherwiſe will obey. which if yt were true / as yt is not / is not ſufficient: for that he is not ſo eaſelie aſſured / nor they ſo eaſely obey.

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 19 (2 of 3)