A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 18

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 18

p. CXXITract. 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the miniſter.

Cap. 1. Diuiſ. 1. Off the Tryall off miniſters in learning and conuerſation.

THe replie ſtandeth vponupon the certeine / and vnfallible grounde Pag. 133.off the worde off God: which is / that the churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Miniſtery / without good tryal off his ſufficientie. Then yt is vpholden / off the wordes off the texte / that twoo were ſet vpp / and cauſed to ſtand before the congregation. For after that ſainct Peter had declared / what maner off man he owght to bee / which Act. 1. 23.Acts 1:23ſhould fill vp the voide place off Iudas: immediatly S. Luke ſheweth / that twoo were put vpp / as if he ſhoulde ſaye / conſider whether thes he ſuche / or no / as ought to choſen / and which agree with that which is required off him / that muſt ſupplye this place. The reaſon wheroff was / for that all the men which where in the churche at that time: were not capable off that function / hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our ſauiour Chriſte continually / from the begininge off his preaching / vntill the day off his aſcenſion.

And vnles that S. Peter mente to ſubiect thoſe vntounto the tryall off the churche / which were to be choſen: why inſtructed he the churche / and gaue a rule to ſeuer / and trie them by? After the p. CXXIIchurche agreed / eyther by voice / or by ſilence / that they were ſuche as behoued: S. Peter wente forwarde / and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte. And that this is the plaine / and naturall order off that action: he that hathe but one eye / may eaſely ſee. The ſcripture is ſhorte / and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges: and touchinge certein pointes off a ſtorie / leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader: ſometimes which was doone before / by expreſſing that which was doone after: other ſometimes that which is doone after / by expreſſing that which was doone before. Whereoff (yff neede were) yt is not harde / to ſhew diuers examples: And theroff is that ſentence ſo often vſed off the Hebrew Doctours / foreign The Scripture ſtayeth yt ſelfe vponupon, or preſumeth an vnderſtanding reader: withowt the vvhiche yt ſhall ſeme very vnſufficient / that ys moſt perfect / and vvithowt the which / a greate portion off the vvorde of God / ys loſte.

And vvhere as yow ſaye / that yt is certaine that there was no tryall, becauſe they were ſufficiently knowne: firſt / yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte / that they were ſufficiently knowē. And conſidering that (as yt comethe comōly to paſſe / in a perſequuted churche) there were by al likelihood ſome / lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē / althowghe they vvere well knowne to others. Thē the queſtiō is not / whether they vvere examined or no: but vvether they vvere ſet vpp to be tried: ſo that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall / althowghe no tryall folowed: the place ys aptly alledged. For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie / ſo that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour / or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche / to iudge of: yet that ys no cauſe / why they ſhoulde not be offered to the examinaciō. Nether is yt reaſon / that the knowne habylytie off ſome one / or twoo: ſhoulde breake an ordinary lawe / in the churche off God. And yow that hauehave ſerued your ſelfe / more thē once / or twyce / vvithowt cauſe (as ſhall appeare) off the manner of ciuill elections / to ouerthrowe the Eccleſiaſticall: might here by the conſideration off them / hauehave bene delyuered / from this abuſinge off yowr ſelfe / and others. Yow knowe in the election off followes / p. CXXIIIand ſcolers / where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be choſen be neuer ſo ſufficient / and there ſufficientie neuer ſo well knowne / to all to vvhō the choiſe belongethe: yet the offer of themſelues to be examined / is ſo neceſſary / that if that be not: they cā by no meanes be choſen. If therfore mans lawe / in ſuche ſmall elections / hath ſuche force / that yt will giuegive place to no mans excellencye / or ſingularitie: how muche more owght the lawe of God / vvhichwhich byddethe generally vvithout exception / that they ſhoulde be tryed vvhichwhich are promoted to the miniſtery, in ſo greate / and weighty an election / 1. Tim. …. ver. 10.to kepe her force?

Where yow ſay / ther was no other cauſe off preſenting them, then that which is expreſſed in the text: tell me what cauſe is expreſſed / off preſentinge them in the congregation? ſurely none that I reade. thoſe two which I alledged in my replie / are gathered / but none is expreſſed. So that yf there vvere no other cauſe / off there preſenting / then that vvhichwhich is expreſſed: there ſhoulde be none at all / and that action off the Apoſtles / ſhould be to no purpoſe. What expreſſe wordes are there in the texte, contrary to this tryall, or at the leſt offer off triall? the vvordes ſhoulde hauehave bene noted / the meaning ſhoulde hauehave bene beaten owte: where vve neede your helpe / there you forſake vsus. vvhere the meaning is cleare / and vvithout controuerſie / there you trouble your ſelfe / and vsus boothe.

Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt muſt be followed wholy, ſaith the anſwere. This is very definitiuely / and magiſtrally ſaid: and being a dangerous error (as that vvhichwhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifeſt heads of Chriſtian religion) is notwithſtanding farced / with ſcoffing queſtions in deriſion off the truthe. I neuer learned, nor I doo not vſe / to add, or take away from the word off God: I expounde the ſcripture / and gather off it / vvhichwhich is not to add: and in ſaying / that ſomething is not to be follovved off vsus, I take nothing away: for I confeſſe yt to be ſo as the ſtorie reporteh. And althoughe that parte be no example to follow: yet euen now / and to the ende / yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine. But if I take away from the ſcripture / becauſe I ſay / that ſome Parte of that action is not to be follovved: you do muche more / that ſaye / nothing p. CXXIIIItheroff ys to be followed. I diſtinguiſhe beweēne that which was for a tyme / and that which is perpetual: and to diſtinguiſhe / is not to diſmember. Al the reuelations I hauehave / are owt off the reueled worde off God: I knowe that this parte off this action, touching the examination / ys to be followed, becauſe yt is confermed by other places off the ſcripture: thother not ſo / for that yt hathe not / the like confirmacion. This ſpirite off ſlumber / whearwithe the lorde hathe ſtriken yowe in that yowe ſay / that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obſerued wholely: ſhall better appeare when I come to yower anſwer / of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke / where this is handled.

No doubte (ſaith he) this is an extraordinary example. As Archidamus foreign. Plut.ſaid to his ſon̄e / beinge to venterowſe / and boldhardy / either put to more ſtrēght, or take avvaie ſome of this courage: ſo I muſt admoniſhe yow / that either yow woulde come ſtronger withe argumētes / or els goo ſoftlier / to thes doctoral determinatiōs. Is yt without all doubte, that all thinges are here extraordinary: nothing of neceſſitie to be followed? For ſo yow ſay / when yow will not hauehave yt followed in other parte / becauſe ſome one is not to be followed. What is yt not neceſſary / to admoniſhe thoſe to whom the election off the miniſters belongeth: to tell them what maner a one owght to be choſen? if that be not / yet ys not this neceſſary: to commend the election of the miniſter of the worde / to the praiers of thoſe whiche are preſente at the election?

And where as he ſaithe / that yt being extraordinary, is not off neceſsitie to be followed; he ſhould hauehave ſaide / that being extraordinary / yt owght not to be followed. Now vvhen he graunteth them to be ſuche as may be vſed / althowghe not neceſſaryly: he concludeth againſt him ſelfe / that they are not extraordinary. for as thoſe thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God / owght to be followed: ſo thoſe thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vsus / withowt an extraordinary ſpirite / to be followed: thinges whiche may be doone / or lefte vndoone / are nether ordinary / nor extraordinari / but hauehave a meane nature betweene bothe. But as it is in in prouerbe / the egle ketcheth no flies: Maiſter D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes: and yet to keepe the proprietie of ſpeche / profiteth muche / to the keping off the pure nes of doctrine.

p. CXXVBut the wordes off maiſter Caluine (ſaithe he) are plaine. So they are in deede / plaine to ſhewe your great vntreuth / and plaine to ſhewe that which I contende for: that is / that althowghe ſome thinges are not to be followed: yet other ſome thinges in this election / are and owghte to ſerue / for the direction off the election off the miniſters nowe. And becauſe you ſhall not abuſe the reader / nether with the deniall off thinges to be ſo / which are manifeſt / nor guilfull eſcapes / wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge: although yt be muche againſt my will / to lenghthen my booke with translating ſo thicke / and three folde of other mens ſentences into mine: yet being driuen to yt / I had rather be ſomewhat troubleſome to the reader: then that yowr vnhoneſt practiſes ſhoulde not appeare / to all that will not willingly cloſe there eyes againſt the truthe. But before I cum to maiſter Caluine / I will ſet downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maiſter Caluin. Cyprian therfore (ſpeaking off the election of a Miniſter) writethe amongeſt other thinges / thus. God commandeth that the preyſt ſhoulde be placed before the face off the vvhole congregation off the Ievves: that is to 1. li. Epi. 4.ſay, he dothe teache, and ſhevve, that the ordeininges off the miniſters, ovvghte not to be made, but vvithe the knovvledge of the people ſtanding by: vvherby they being preſente, either theyr faultes ſhoulde be diſcouered, or their vertues commended: and ſo it may be a iuſte, and a lavvfull ordination, vvhichwhich is by the voyces, and iudgemētes of all examined. The vvhiche after vvard according to the dyuine maſterſhippe, or authoritie, is obſerued in the Actes off the Apoſtels: vvhere Peter ſpeaketh vntounto the people, off ordeining a biſhop into Iudas place. Off which place fyrſt yt appeareth / that the people not onelyonly had / but oughte to hauehave to doo / in the appointing off there miniſter: and that not by any cuſtome / or decree off men / but by the eternall worde off God / bothe in the olde / and newe Teſtament. Alſo / that theyr right conſiſteth / bothe in examining the life off him which is to be choſen / and in the approbation off him yff they like off him / or refuſall iff they like him not: which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers / by this place / and the ſixte off the actes / which he alſo citeth.

p. CXXVINow I come to maiſter Caluin. After he hathe in the 13. ſection / ſhewed that the election off the Apoſtell into Iudas place / is no certaine rule for our elections: he ſheweth further whearin 4 li. 3. ca.yt is no rule: namely / for that the election there was committed to lotte / the vocation off an Apoſtell ſo requiring / that by the iudgement off the lotte / as yt were by Gods owne mowthe / a ſucceſſour might be appointed in ſteed off Iudas. But in the 14. ſection / he ſheweth the lorde ſo approuethe off the iudgment off men (vvhichwhich he after expoundeth the churche) that euen in the Apoſtels appointement / vvhichwhich hauehave this prerogatiue that they ſhoulde be created immediatly from God / the iudgment off the churche ſhoulde not be paſſed by: and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verſe / and this place off the firſt off the actes and 23. verſe / and off thoſe places gathereth a perpetuall document / to eſtabliſhe the diſcipline / and order off the churche in elections / for euer. Whearby appeareth / that maiſter Caluins minde / is not (as the doctor woulde make vsus beleue) that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place / perteining to our elections.

Afterward / confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy 3. cap. 15. ſ./ and Titus / gooe abowte to proue that the election off the miniſters / is in the Biſhopps powre, he ſaithe thus / VVel therfore ſayd CyPrian, vvhyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god, that the miniſter ſhoulde be choſen the people being preſente, in the eies off all: and ſhoulde be by the cō mon iudgment, and teſtimonie approued vvorthy, and fitt. And forth with reciting Cyprians vvordes (before alledged) and quoting this place off the Actes / he concludeth in this ſorte: vvee hauehave therfore (ſaith he) that this is the lavvfull vocation by the vvorde off God: vvhere thoſe vvhichwhich are choſen, are appointed by the conſent and approbation off the people. Here againe yt is manifeſt / that Maiſter Caluine vſeth this place off the Actes / to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation / and conſent off the people. Furthermore / ſpeaking againſt 4. li. 5. c. 2. ſ.the popiſhe election / for that in yt all is in the pleaſure off the biſhoppe. He citeth Leo and Cyprian / which proue that by the worde off God / the church owghte to hauehave her intereſt / in the election p. CXXVIIoff the miniſter: and many Synodes / which dooe ſeverely prohibite ſuche elections / and if they be made / commaund that they ſhoulde be off none effect. Then concludeth / yff thes thinges be trvve, there is this day in poperie no canonicall election, nether by Godes, nor by any eccleſiaſticall lavve. And if there vvere nothing els, hovve can they excuſe them ſelues, that they hauehave ſpoiled the churche off her righte? And ſo goeth forthe / with confuting off the ſame reaſons off the Papiſtes / which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor. This may be ſufficiente / to let the reader vnderſtande / howe the Anſ. woulde ſhamefully abuſe him / with the authorytie off M. Caluin. Wherin I doe not forget / that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election / I hauehave together with thoſe places / belonginge to the examinatiō / preſſed alſo thoſe which touche the election yt ſelffe. Which I did pourpoſely that I myghte not be compelled / to ſet downe thes places againe a litell after: Where yt beinge alleged for the election / which is here alledged for the examination / receiueth the ſame anſwere off the S. which this doothe.

VntoUnto my reaſon in the ſecond Diuiſion / that if an examination pag. 133.be neceſſary for a deacon yt is muche more neceſſary for the miniſter, (againſte that he ſaide / that the fixt off the Actes, coulde not ſerue to proue any thinge, touching the miniſters election, becauſe yt was off deacons) he anſwerethe not / but paſſethe by quietly / and maketh no wordes. But his other ſayinge / that there is no mention made off any tryall, he holdethe ſtill for good / aſkinge me what one worde off tryall is there? I anſwere / that albeit there be not this worde trie, yet ther is that which wayeth as muche: for the greake worde loke foreignovvte, can not be ſeuered from a triall. And if S. Luke had but vſed the ſymple verbe / which in our tounge ſignifieth conſider / yet that off yt ſelffe had force to hauehave leade the chuſers to a tryall / off them which were to be choſen: nowe vſinge the compounde / thereby he laide vppon them / a greater neceſſitie / and a more carefull diligence off triall off them. Where iff the Apoſteles had not mente herby / to hauehave called the church to a diligente ſerche / and tryall p. CXXVIIIoff thoſe which were to bee chooſen: they woulde hauehave contented them ſelues to hauehave ſaide / take from emongeſt you, &c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off thoſe which were the fitteſt to be choſen to that office (which is bothe vnlike / and almoſte impoſſible / ſeinge there were certeine thowſandes off late added vntounto the churche): yet euen thoſe which are well knowē vntounto vsus / when they be to be choſen vntounto ſuche great charges / are to be inquired into a freſhe. For that knowledge off a man / whiche is ſufficiente for vsus to liue with him in priuate ſocietie / and common courſe off life / is not enoughe to promote him to ſuche a dignity in the churche: and that experience off one / vppon confidence wheroff wee durſte truſte him with our weightieſt affaires / is not ſufficiente thereupon to commit vntounto him the lordes matters. So that conſideringe the weighte off an eccleſiaſticall office / the manifolde creuiſſes off mans diſſimulation / with the dullnes off our ſighte to eſpie them: there can be no feare off too muche triall / euē off thoſe whiche we thinke we knowe already. And therfore allthoughe the whole churche / had knowledge off thoſe which were apte for that office: yet the Apoſtels admonition / off diligent conſidering whome they choſe (which coulde not be withowt tryall) was not owte off time.

Againe that the Apoſtels giuegive in charge vntounto the churche / that they ſhoulde choſe ſuche as had teſtimonie off there good behauiour: perteineth to the examination / for the churche in ſeking teſtimonie off there good conuerſation / tried them what they where. And vnles this be tryall: towching the conuerſation off him which is to be choſen miniſter / in the churche of England there is no tryall at all: conſidering that the triall which is had / is by the teſtimonie off certeine. So I conclude that this place off the actes / makinge for the examination off the Deacon: is muche more ſtronge / for the examination of the miniſter. To the nexte ſection I anſwere not.

Diuiſ. 4. What is in the begining off the boke / becauſe you pag. 135.ſet it not downe / and I hauehave not the boke to ſee: I will leaue to eueryevery one to conſider. Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt / where (ſpeaking to the Archedeacons) he ſaithe / Take heede p. CXXIXPa. 25.that the perſons vvhom you preſente vntounto vsus be apre and meer… &c. declare that the biſhope paſſethe his election / vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon. But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine / ſeinge the election / and ordination hangeth only vppon the Biſhoppes pleaſure. And he partly ſeinge / that all the matter ſtandeth in the courteouſie off the Biſhoppe: and partly (as yt ſemeth) willinge / that that gowlfe ſhoulde ſwallowe vpp / all other mens interreſtes in this election: ſetteth him ſelfe to proue yt.

And where as I alledged / that yt is not ſafe in ſo vveightie a mater, to cōmit that to the powre of one, vvhichwhich may be vvith leſſe daunger doone by many: he goeth abowt to proue / that the biſhoppe is off all other fitteſt for that matter. Wherin obſerue / that the D. is quyte goone from the cauſe. For the queſtion is not / whether he be off others moſt fytt: but vvhether yt be fytt that he alone ſhoulde doe it. So that if he will hauehave it a reaſone againſte the cauſe / this yt is: The biſhoppe is more hable then any one / to make a good examination / therfore more hable to make yt then a great ſorte: more hable to make yt then any one / therfore more hable to make yt alone / then when he hath other ioyned with him. Which is all one / as iff he ſhoulde hauehave ſaide: The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte / therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone / then with the helpe off the lefte. I doe not here take exception / againſte the longe experience in thes thinges, which he ſaithe the biſhoppe hathe: yet he cannot hauehave it at his firſt orderīge of miniſters: ād others mighte hauehave yt as wel as he / if the examinatiō were as well permitted vntounto thē / as vntounto him. I medell not alſo with the biſhopes either ſounde learning, or ruled affections: which what they be in ſome / is well knowen / what theye maye be (conſideringe that they be not tied to the rochet) yt is eaſie to be conſidered: Let him be as well experienced / learned / affected / as ſuche a biſhopp maie be: yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this / but that the biſhopp owght not to be ſhute oute / in this examination.

Where he ſaithe / Surely if any one man, or mo be voyd off ſuch affefections, and thought meet to hauehave ſuch matters committed vntounto him, yt is the p. CXXXBiſhopp: yt had bene good he had aſſured that Surely: with ſome reaſon: otherwiſe yt muſt (as yt is) be holden for an vnſhamfaſte begging / of that which is denied. And off the ſame ſorte is that which followeth / that if he be worthie the office off a biſhope, he maie ſafely be credited, with al thinges incidēt vntounto the ſame: for this is that which lieth between vsus: whether yt be incident to the office off a biſhoppe to hauehave thonely examination off thoſe, which are choſen to the miniſterie. Which yff I coulde geue you: I woulde / to be ridd off thes importunat aſkinges.

Y… followethe not / becauſe ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe / maie be committed to one: therfore eccleſiaſticall alſo / whiche concerne the liffe to come / maie be ſo hazarded. Nay for ſo muche as mās inſighte into ciuille affaires / and iudgement in them / is ſharper then in matters perteininge to the churche: it is cleare / that there ye more helpe required in thes / then in the other. Beſides that / when as princes by takinge counſailes vntounto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme / and for better deciding off priuate mens cauſes / appoincte whole be… ches off Iuſtices / ſtanding off fiue / or ſixe: they doo ſufficiently declare therby / howe they hauehave the Iudgement off one (be he neuer ſo wiſe) greatly in ſuſpition off error.

It is ſufficient that the prouer be off moo eies ſeinge better then one, be trewe for the moſte parte / which is the nature off a prouerbe: And in makinge off lawes / the lawe giuer reſpecteth what is for the moſt parte expediēte / and not that whiche maie be good ſome times. For otherwiſe it might be ſaied / the biſhoppe ſhoulde not medle withe the election / but his chapleine: becauſe yt may happen / that he is more hable to medle in that matter / then the biſhoppe: It is no ſmale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God / to accounte off yt / as off an ignorante multitude. For onleſſe yowe meane the churche / when yowe ſaye / then a thowſand other whiche be ignorant: yowe ſpeake beſide the matter / ſeing wee doe not permitte either examination / or election off the miniſters to eueryevery multitude / and blinde aſſemblie: but vntounto thoſe onelyonly / whiche make an open / and cleare profeſſion off the trewthe. Therefore yowre glorious / and great ſpeaches alwaies off the Biſhoppes / are affectioned / and aſpire ſomewhether. p. CXXXIFor yf they preceded off the feare off God: yt can not be / but that feare of God / and ſpirite of humilitie / whiche taughte yowe to ſpeake ſo of them: woulde hauehave ſpoken muche more reuerently off the churche / whoſe ſeruantes they owghte to be. And when yow ſaie / or that in ſuche matters be farr inferior to him: yff yow meane ten thowſand off thoſe whiche be off the churche: the voice is ſtraunge / and needed ſome reaſons to acquainte vsus with yt: eſpecially ſeinge it touchethe (as yowe thinke) the cauſe. But yowe wander ſtill / and the prouer be yowe confute not. For let yt be / that the biſhope ſeeth more then 10000. off the churche (whiche proportion beinge more vnequall / then that betwene the ſonne / and the mone / carieth withe yt a ſente off the popiſhe inſolencie) admitte I ſaie that the biſhopes eie be ſo good: yet if the churche hauehave anie eie at all / that beinge ioined with his / will ſee better then his alone. And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe / not to compare one good eie with manie bad: but to ſhewe / that that whiche alone i… hable to doe ſomewhat / withe company / and helpe is hable to doe it better. And therfore oneles yowe will hauehave yowre biſhoppe ſo full off ſighte / that he can leaue no thinge vnſeene: and to hauehave receiued the ſpirite withowt meaſure / which is onelyonly proper vntounto our ſauiour Chriſte: yowe hauehave yet browghte nothinge / to ſhewe why he owghte not to hauehave the aſſiſtaunce off others / in the examination off the miniſter. S. Paule refuſethe not to learne of the Rom. 1. 12Rom 1:12churche off God / in thoſe thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the biſhope, as any biſhope can goe beionde the ſimpleſt of his dioceſe. Apollos was inſtructed / and tawghte of a powre handycraftes Act. 18. 26. Socrat. 1. 8 Sozom 1. 18.Acts 18:26man / and his wiffe. In the counſell of Nice / a ſimple man / and one that knewe nothinge but Ieſus Chriſte / bothe ouerturned / ād turned a Philoſopher / whome all the 318. Biſhopes / coulde not moue. bothe S. Paule / and Apollos / and the 318. Biſhopes / were off Singuler knowledge in thoſe thinges / wherin they were aided / and deſired to be aided / off thoſe which were a great deale inferior vntounto them. What honie hauehave our biſhoppes eaten off / that they can ſee ſo clearly / into the fitnes off a miniſter: that the churche off God / can not bothe ſee that whiche they ſee / and that alſo whiche they hauehave ouerſeene? Belike yt is / becauſe our biſhopes are more ſharper of Sighte / then euer any were: and our churches p. CXXXIImore ignorante then any hauehave bene before. And if the churches were tawghte of them (wherein they are for the moſte parte / ſmallieſt beholdinge vntounto them): as the plentifull knowledge of the churche / ſhoulde hauehave bene a ſeale of their aboundance: ſo what ſoeuer is ſaide off the ignorance / argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge / and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation. Which yff it were well conſidered of him: yt ſemeth / that for the ialouſie he hathe ouer the eſtate of a Lorde Biſhope, he woulde hauehave ſpoken more reuerently off the churche.

Wheras yowe ſay that offices off greatest charge are onelyonly in the Princes choiſe: Still yowe confute your ſhadowe: for I ſpeake off thoſe elections wherin diuers hauehave intereſt / ſainge that yt ſeldome commeth to paſſe, that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhichwhich is to be choſen: all the reſte vvhichwhich hauehave intereſt in that election, vvill giuegive theyr voices. What worde is here / which giueth occaſion to ſpeake off the princes elections / which are made by her ſelfe alone? yowe hauehave therfore picked a quarel / to ſpeake off the welbeſtowing of offices / onles yt ſhoulde be ſome profit vntounto yowr ſelfe / which yow imagined might come by ſprinckling off thes faire wordes: I ſee no ende of yt. ſure I am / yt is no anſwere vntounto that / which yt pretendeth. For my parte / I will not contrary that yow ſpeake / of the good beſtowing off the offices by the prince: And I am well aſſured / that ſome of them be beſtowed / of moſte worthye men. But yt is good for princes / to hauehave as it were eares off horne / againſte ſuche ſweete ſonges as theſe be: and notwithſtanding them / to ſtire vpp them ſelues to greater warenes in the beſtowing off their offices.

Therefore to let paſſe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth: for the Eccleſiaſticall charges / which her maieſtie beſtoweth / althowghe they be off the greateſte porte: yet they will appeare / not off the greateſt charge. vnleſſe yow meane charge actiuely / that is to ſaye great charge / and vnprofitable burden vntounto the churche / not bearinge the churche / but borne of yt / euen almoſte to the breakinge off her backe. And thoſe alſo (as I thinke) are not choſen off the prince alone, but named onlie / and choſen off the canons off that ſea / wheroff he is to be appointed biſhoppe / and confirmed p. CXXXIIIoff the Archbiſhoppe. But lett yt be here obſerued / that Maiſter D. ſeemeth by affirmation off this thing (although falſely) without ſaying any thing againſt yt / to gïue the election off the biſhop onelyonly vntounto the Prince: whiche if he maie doe in the biſhopes / whiche he taketh head miniſters: muche more maie he doe it / in the other eccleſiaſticall orders / which he accounteth vnderunder the biſhope. here firſt I woulde knowe / wether he will ſtande to this / or no: or whether hauing nothinge to anſwere / he vſed this for a ſhifte. Then whether the Biſhopes will take in good parte / this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magiſtrate: ād whether for there tēporalties / as it wer for a meſſe of riſe potage / they will ſuffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowſly alienated: to be offered where yt is not aſked / to be geuen where it is not receiued. And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be / that they maie kepe thother: or be contente that maiſter D. forrewarde off his proctorſhipp / ſhoulde hauehave the diſpoſing off it at his pleaſure: then I ſhall hauehave ſomething more to ſaie in this behalfe.

The election off miniſters / committed to the biſhoppes alone / is made off cuſtome / that is twiſe a yeare at the leaſt / iff any come: at the intreaty off ſome in authoritie of tentimes: and not vponupon any neede off the churche. For when almoſte / is the requeſt of ſuche as be in authoritie / refuſed in that election? In deede there is no extreme ſute / the doore is not ſo harde locked: ther neadeth but the liftinge vp off the latche. And yt is alſo I graunte withowt contention, For howe can the biſhope contende with him ſele? Vnles he and his conſcience ſometimes fall owte / which cōtention is to be wiſſhed / that it were greater. And ſet me all the borowghes / and cities together in the whole realme / where elections paſſe by voice: yowe ſhall finde / they can not all afforde / ſo many vnworthy officers: as hauehave ſwarmed miniſters / from the ſole election of the moſte parte off the biſhopes in Englande. Yf yowr affirmaciōs be ſo clear / that yowe dare com̄itte thē ſo barely withowte profe / to the iudgemēt of mē: I dare with better reaſon / let theſe goe: which are donne before the ſonne / in the conſcience off all men: which the brwte beaſtes them ſelues woulde witnes / iff they coulde ſpeake.

Yf he be condemned off the Apoſtell / which iudgeth off one p. CXXXIIII1. Cor. …. 5mans action before the time / that is before he ſeeth what it i… ▪ what great preſumption ys it / thus to iudge the churche off God? And therfore that I be no partaker off yowr ſinne / and plage / which (withowt repentance enſueth): I anſwer that I thinke they will chuſe the meteſte: that they will followe the lorde / before the lorde of the towne, yf the lorde off the towne drawe not with the Lorde: that they will not doe one off their neighbours pleaſure, to the diſhonour off the lorde / and the hurte off all them ſelues / and the whole congregation: that the peace off God / not contention will be in the churche off God: that they being the church off God / and the myſticall bodie off our fauiour Chriſte / ſhall hauehave an hable / and fit paſtor / if they hauehave one lyke vntounto them ſelues: and ſo ſhalbe like people, like paſtor. And iff a whole churche aſſembled together in the feare off God / with inuocation off his name / be ouercaried by affection off louelove / or feare / to choſe him that ys vnmeet / the biſhope maie muche more / beinge but one man / ſubiecte to the ſame paſſions they be: onles yow can happely ſhewe ſome prerogatiue / to exempte him from the common infection. So for any thinge yet alleadged / the lighte off reaſon / rather fauoureth the election off the miniſter by many / then by one. Nowe let vsus ſee whether the holie ſcriptures / wheruppon wee laie the weighte off this election / receiue any better anſwer.

To youre anſwere to the …. and ſixte off the Actes / yow hauehave my replye before. And where yow add further to the firſte off the Actes / that Maiſter Beza ſaithe / that they were not preſented by the multitude, but by the Apoſtels onelyonly: I know not wherfore yow ſhoulde bringe that in. For I ſay not that the multitude had the preſentation: yt appeareth manifeſtly / that no one had the handlinge of that action / which ſtriketh the biſhopes ſole election to the harte: yt appeareth alſo / that the iudgement / and conſente of the churche was required / which is that wee deſire. Maiſter Beza writeth thus / Auguſtine vvith vvhome this vvhole chapiter is reade very VponUpon the 1. Act.corruptly, interpreteth this vvorde they ſet vpp, he ſet vp, not vvithovvt a daungerous error, for here vvas nothinge done off Peter, by him ſelfe as one endevved vvith greater dignitie: but euerie thinge is done publikely, and by voices off the vvhole p. CXXXVchurche. Vppon the worde foreign, he ſaithe thus / The Ma. Beza vponupon the 14. of the actes.ſtrenght off this vvorde, vvhichwhich is to ordeine by voices, is to be noted: that vve maye knovve that Paule, and Barnaba… did nothīg by their ovvne priuate pleaſure, nor exerciced no tyrāny in the churche, as the Romiſhe Harlot dothe novve, and his aſſiſtants vvhichwhich they call ordinaries. And in other place vppon the VponUpon the 5. of S. Pa. to Timo. ver. 22.wordes / lay not thy handee ſuddenly vponupon any, &c. That is (ſaithe he) admitte not all vvithovvt choiſe to any Eccleſiaſticall function, as muche as in the liethe. For all the authoritie vvas not in Timothie: but after the election made by voices off the vvhole churche (as vve hauehave ſaide of the electiō in the 14. of the Actes, ād as appeareth by the election off Matthias, and the Deacons) he that gouerned the cōpanie in the name of the vvhole Elderſhipe, did by the putting on off his handes, conſecrate VponUpon the firſt vntounto Titus.hym that vvas choſen. And in an other place were the apoſtle willeth Titus / that he ſhoulde appointe elders tovvne by tovvne: he referreth the reader to his expoſition off the place off the 5. to Timothy / and the 14. off the Actes. And in the ſame chapiter (owte off the whiche maiſter D. hathe borowed this place) he ſheweth / that albeit all thoſe thinges are not allwaies to be followed / whiche were done in the apoſtolicall elections: notwithſtanding that they had one vnchangeable ende. and aſking what that was he anſwereth amongeſt other this / that nether paſtors, nor Deacons ſhoulde be thruſte vppon the flocke againſte the vvill theroff. And after in the ſame chapiter he ſaithe plainely: that it is tyranny, that the gouuernours off the churche, ſhoulde be geuen vntounto the churche, vvithovvte the conſent theroff: alſo that it belongethe to the Preſbytery / to chooſe the offices off the churche / when they be voide. There are a nomber off moe places to be foūde in hī / to this pourpoſe / that I may leaue owt heare it. epiſtle in his boke of epiſt. (becauſe I ſuppoſe yt is in eueryevery mans handes) which is moſte cleare for the deciding of this cōtrouerſie.

To come therfore to the examination off this dealinge: fyrſte in that he ſaith / that it had bene a dangerous error, if S. Peter had p. CXXXVIdone any thinge off his ovvne authoritie, withowt the aſſiſtance of other the Apoſtels: in that he ſaithe / that Timothie had not, not onelyonly not the election off the miniſters, but not the ordination in his povvre, but that whiche he did / he did in the name off the reſte off the elderſhipe: and in that he ſaithe / yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders, to chuſe the offices of the churche, as ofte as they be voide: and addethe / that he neuer founde in any Chriſtian churche eſtabliſhed, that kinde off election vvhiche is in the povvre one: yt is cleare / that he vtterly condemnethe foreign. Imperiū.as altogether vnwonted / as vſurped / as tiran̄icall / that election whiche is made by the biſhope alone: and that this is one of the ſubſtantiall poinctes / off a lawfull Eccleſiaſticall election / that it be donne by the Elderſhip. Secondly / in that he ſaithe / yt vvas the vnchangable pourpoſe off the Apoſtels, to prouide that the gouernours off the churche, ſhoulde not be thruſte vppon the churche, againſte her vvill: that Paule, and Barnabas, to then-tente they vvoulde bringe in no tyrannie into the churche, permitted the election off the elders vntounto the voices theroff: that they bringe tyranny vntounto the churche, vvhiche vvithovvte the cōſent of the multitude, at their one pleaſure, call any vntounto a publike function in the churche: yt is moſte manifeſte / that maiſter Beza holdethe this / for an other ſubſtantiall poincte off a lawfull Eccleſiaſticall electiō in a church eſtabliſhed / that yt be made with the peoples cōſente. So that yt appearethe / that the election made by the Biſhope alone / receiueth off Maiſter Beza twoo deadly woundes / as yt were in the harte / and in the heade: one / for that it is not as well done by the authorite off the Elderſhipe / as by the biſhoppe / or paſtor: an other / bicauſe yt is not done by the conſente off the churche. Nowe what doe wee require / in the election off Eccleſiaſticall officers / which Maiſter Beza dothe not? wee require / that yt be not permitted to one, he deteſtethe it as tyrannie: we ſaie / that yt oughte to be done by the elder ſhipe, and by conſente, at the leſte off the people, he ſaithe / the ſame.

What are the thinges then / vſed in the Apoſtels elections / p. CXXXVIIthat M. Beza ſaithe may be altered: and wheroff there is no certeine rule preſcribed / whiche the churche is allwaies bounde to followe? forſouthe thes thinges / as may be eaſely gathered: that 6. Act.where ſometimes the people vppon particular occaſions / did firſt chuſe / and the approbation off the gouernours did followe / other ſome times / and for the moſte parte / the gouernours wente before / and directed the iudgementes off the people: that in this circunſtance / Act. 1. Act. 14.Acts 1Acts 14the churche ſhoulde be at her libertie / to order / and vſe whiche off theis waies ſhe ſhoulde thinke moſte f…tte / hauinge regarde to the times / and other circumſtāces / whiche mighte moue to take ether the one / or the other. Againe where the Greciās vſed in their elections / the cerimonie off holdinge vpp the hande / to teſtifie their liking off him that was choſen: other (as the Romains) goinge from one ſyde vntounto an other (Whereoff cam / pedibus ire in ſententiam): others by ſilence / did approue that whiche was propounded: that in thes / and ſuche lyke the churche mighte vſe that ceremonie / whiche is bothe receiued in that place / and leſte ſubiecte to ſlaunderous ſpeache. And that whiche the Anſw. hathe browghte here / dothe eſpecially belonge vntounto this: and is geuen off M. Beza where he ſhewethe / that the manner off the Aſians was / to teſtifie there conſente by liftinge vp of handes.

But off what thinges ſo euer in the election / that rule is giuen: Yt can by no means take awaye the election from the Elderſhipe off eueryevery churche / nor the peoples conſente / to put all in the Biſhopes hande: Seinge that (as hathe bene ſhewed) he makethe theſe twoe ſubſtantiall poinctes / off a lawfull eccleſiaſticall election. And if the Anſw. will accorde vsus thoſe: wee ſhall ſoone agree for the reſte. Vppon all this matter I leaue to the reader to eſteme / howe ether vncircunſpectly / or vnfaithfully / M. S. hath not borowed / but taken awaye whether Maiſter Beza wil / or no / his ſentēces to ouerthrowe that / whiche he ſo often times / and in ſo vehement wordes / ſo plainly dothe eſtabliſhe.

Nowe for your queſtions yowe praie me to anſwere / althowghe they come ſo often / that yow maye aptelier be called the Queſtioner, then the Anſvverer, and that I neede not by any order off diſputation / be driuen to ſpeake to ſuche flying demaundes: yet I p. CXXXVIIIam contente / to let yow vſe this aduantage off venting them after this ſorte / which yow can not put in any forme off argument / and whiche beinge a litle ſtreighte girte / ſhrinke a waie / or euer they come to be examined. But I muſte praie yow alſo that where yowr queſtions be no weightier / yow will be contente that I anſwer them as ſhortly / as yow propownde them: Albeit I hauehave in effecte / anſwered them already in this ſection. I ſaie therfore / Anſvv. to his firſt queſtion. 1. Act. 13. Act. 14. Act. Act. 6. 3. & 5.Acts 13Acts 14Acts 6:3Acts 6:5that where the Apoſtles in the firſte off the Actes / good before the reſte off the churche / and directe them: that is the moſte conuenient waie / for ordenary elections: as that whiche was bothe moſte vſed in the Apoſtolicall elections / and whiche is borne vp by apparante reaſon: whiche is / that they ſhoulde ſhewe the waie to others / which are likeſte to knowe it beſt. And wheras the people preſent firſte / and then the Apoſtels approue after: for as muche as that rooſe of a particular occaſion / whiche was / for that the Apoſtels dealing was ſomewhat ſuſpected / as not altogether indifferent / but to muche bending to the poore off theire one nation: yf the lyke caſe ſhoulde fall / the like remedy may be vſed. beſide that / that election off the Deacons might be more ſafely committed vntounto the people / then that off the paſtors: the people being more able / to iudge off their abilitie in diſpoſing off the mony / then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word. To his ſecond.The caſting off the lottes / for ſo muche as yt was to this ende / that the election off an Apoſtle ſhoulde be immediatly from God / and not by any mans voice: that conſideratiō ceaſſing / the lot alſo in eccleſiaſticall elections (howeſoeuer yt ſemeth otherwiſe to ſome) owghte to die. In the ſixt off the Actes the impoſition of handes / being vſed in all elections by the churche / and hauig a profitable To the third.aduertiſement / that he whiche is ordeined / is ſett a parte from the reſt / for the ſeruice off the churche / and that from thence forthe / he muſte not ſerue him ſelffe / and his / but the churche: and conteining alſo an aſſurance off the lordes hande / and helpe alwaies readie in aſſiſting of him: muſte needes be holden ſtill for ordenary / to be vſed in all elections. The praier be fore the lot in the 1. of the Actes / being expreſſedly vſed in all elections: And being To the fourth.nowe by ſo muche more neceſſary then it was then / as the habilitie is leſſe nowe in the chuſers / then yt was then: muſte needes p. CXXXIXbe thoughte a paterne / to frame owre elections by.

And where yow ſaie / ther was no ſuche thinge as praier in the … off the Actes: yt is a token yow hauehave litle truthe in yow / whiche will denie that whiche is expreſſed manifeſtly in the texte. for although S. Luke doeth not declare / what were the wordes they vſed: v. 6. To his fifte.yet there being praier made for them there was ſuche a thinge. That in the 1. Act. twoo were preſented for one office / that was / that waie mighte be made to the deuine election by lotte: that one onelyonly was taken / was becawſe there was but one place voide. That in the ſixte of the acres 7. were preſented / was / becawſe the church was thowght to hauehave neede off ſo manie / for the prouyſion off their poore: that all were ordeined / was for that the Apoſtels liked well off them all. Be there yet any more behinde? I loked when yow ſhoulde ſaye / that in the firſte off the actes there was a bowte ſixe ſcore / in the ſixte almoſte ſix thowſande: there but eleuen Apoſtles / here twelue: there ſpeaking withe one tonge / here with many. For the matters in controuerſy / that is to ſaie / whether the peoples conſente is to be had / &c. Thes differences woulde hauehave ſerued yow / as well as thoſe: and poſſiblie yf they had taken yow in the heade / yowe woulde neuer hauehave let them goe / withowt giuing ſome tribute to the lengthening off your boke. But in all this diuerſitie yow recken vp / there is a perpetual harmonie againſte the election made by one biſhope: againſte the ambition off the elder which thruſteth owte his fellowe elders: againſt the church robbers / eſpecially which bende ther force / to ſpoile the people of ther conſente / in election off their miniſters. Yf yowe had ſhewed any diuerſitie in this: yow mighte hauehave helped your cauſe ſomewhat.

To thoſe which are bleare eide / one light ſemeth two: and ther Cap. 1. Diuiſ. 5. pag. 136.fore to M. D. which hathe the eie ſight off his minde ſcattered / they ſeme to differ which agree well together. I well remembred what I wrote, and yt hathe not the weighte off a feether / to ouertourne the election off the miniſter by the people. For yt followethe not becauſe one deacon is inferior to the paſtor: therfore the whole churche is inferior / to ether the paſtor / or the deacon: or the deacon may not chuſe the paſtor / therfore the whole churche may not chuſe him. But this had bene wel concluded: one deacon is inferior to the paſtor / therfore muche more one of the people: ād one decon p. CXLcan not chuſe a paſtor / therfore muche leſſe one off the people. Which mighte hauehave bene caſely conſidered / by proportion off the bodye / which S. Paule dothe ſo often poincte owte the eſtate 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12.1 Cor 12Rom 12off the churche by. For ſett a parte the heade / which is our ſauiour Chriſte: and ther is no one parte ſo noble / or ſo neceſſarie / but being compared together with all the partes off the bodie that are vnderunder yt: it giueth place / and is inferior vntounto them.

And it may be ſhewed by example / that they that in a ſocietie be equall / yea ſuperior vntounto any one in that ſocietie / are notwithſtanding inferior to the whole. Peter / and Iohn were equall / vntounto any two / in the whole colledge off the Apoſtels: and yet they were inferiour to the whole companie off the Apoſtels. For beinge ſente Act. 8.Acts 8off them / they muſte be inferiour to thoſe that ſente them: and being Ambaſſadors from them / they receiued commaundement. A &. 13.Paul / and Barnabas were by their dignitie off Apoſtleſhip / ſuperior to any whiche were in the churche off Antioche: and inferior to the whole churche / for the cauſe before alledged. Furthermore / wee doe not permit the choiſe off the paſtor to the people onelyonly / but to the choiſe off the elderſhip: ſo that althoughe the people alone / ſhoulde not be ſuperior vntounto the paſtor / yet all together are / which hauehave to doe in that election.

And althoughe thes thinges are ſo plaine / that they coulde not lightly be hyddē from him / that hathe but moued his lypp to the cuppe of ſounde diuinitie: yet maiſter D. ſtandeth ſtill amaſed / merueiling as he that hauing ſtepte manie years / whē he awaked / thowghte al thinges ſtraunge. Thes are the knowē lawes of the howſe where yow were borne / where alſo yow vndertake profeſſiō of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a ſtraūger at home. The peoples examinatiō off their miniſters eſpecially / ſtandeth in their behauiour: And ſeinge in the churche off God / from him that cleaueth wood / to her which grindethe in the mill / ther is none ſo ignorant / but knowe / and can giuegive reaſon off principall poinctes off the Chriſtian religion: the Elders (which be the flowre off the church) can much leſſe be ſo ignorant as yowe make them. Naaſhe 1. Sam. 11.1 Sam 11the Amonyte / meaning to diſhonour the people off God / thowghte yt reproche enoughe to the Gilcades / yf he mighte hauehave put owte their right eies / and (althowghe a barbarous / and p. CXLIcruell enemie off the people off God) yet woulde hauehave ſatisfied him ſelfe with that; but yow are not cōtente with that / onles yow put owte bothe their eies / and leaue them as blinde / and ignorant buſſardes. Thes reproches off ignorance / ſo oftētimes caſte vponupon the people off God / are not ſpoken with the toūge off Canaan / but is the proper dialecte off the Papiſtes / and yt is reprochefull not vntounto men / but vntounto the ſonne off God / whoſe bodie the churche is / and whereoff he is the heade.

The prophet ſpeaking off churches which ſhould be gathered Eſa. 11. 10Isa 11:10vnderunder the goſpell / ſaithe / that the earthe ſhall be full of the knowledge off God / as the waters vvhichwhich couer the ſea: the accompliſhment wheroff maie appeare in all places / where there is any teaching miniſter / which dothe the office of a faithfull paſtor. I coulde a great deale eaſelier / beare the reproches which you vtter againſte me: but vvhen I heare yow thus raile vppon the lordes hoſte / ſo indefinitely ſpeakīge of the churches of God / yow are vntollerable. yet if I ſhoulde ſpeake againſte this / as oft as yow giuegive occaſion: I ſhoulde neuer hauehave doone. And if nether yow vvill ceaſſe this language / nor thoſe that ſhoulde looke vntounto yt / vvill ſtope this incircumciſed mouthe: I vvill commit the cauſe vntounto the lorde / and vvaite for his iudgement.

Off the meanes of an exacte examination off the habilitie off the paſtor / with owte the helpe off the lorde biſhoppe / is ſpoken in an other place: vvhere ſhall be examined / vvhat the D. hath to ſaie. It hathe appeared howe vntrwe yt is that the Deacō is ſuperior / or hathe moe giftes thē the reſte of the bodie of the churche. And beſides that yt ſhall appeare in place / a moſte abſurde ſayinge / that the deacon is aboue that elder which I meane (for I meane the ſame / vvhichwhich S. Paule meaneth) ther was no occaſion at all here to ſpeake / off the ſuperioritie off a deacon vntounto a ſenior. For ether he owghte to proue a deacon / aboue a paſtor: or els he hathe ſaide nothinge / to that vvhiche is in queſtion.

In the 308 page the Biſhoppe is auowed to be a Paſtor, here he is Superior to a Paſtor, and therfore no Paſtor: for there can be no compariſon / but betwene twoo thinges at the leſte: ād yt is very ſtrange / that a man ſhoulde be higher then him ſelffe. So that to defend theſe biſhops / and Archebiſhops / the Anſ. hath neede hauehave p. CXLIIa newe grammer / and a newe logicke: for they tranſcende / and goe beionde all the rules / that euer yet vvere hearde of. I knowe what is vſed with vsus, but is that a ſufficient anſwer? is this yowr defenſe off the booke? I proue him to be deacō / and yow can not denie it: therupō I cōclude / that he is inferior to the paſtor, and yow ſaie / I knowe an archdeacon withe vsus, maie be minister off the worde. But the Queſtion is not vvhat he is / but what he maie be by the vvorde off God: for yow owghte to hauehave ſhewed / that a man may hauehave the order off paſtor and deacon at once. For yf he be but a deacon / and no paſtor: then beinge inferior to the Paſtor / he owghte not by him ſelfe alone / iudge of the ſufficiencie off a Paſtor. yf he be bothe a Deacon / and a paſtor / at once: then in ſteade off miniſters / yow bringe monſters into the churche / and make off the hande and the eie / vvhiche are twoo members / but one. Vnles yow vvill ſaie / that he that is promoted from one Eccleſiaſticall degree vntounto another: kepethe the ſame ſtill vvhichwhich he had before he vvas promoted. by which reaſon / the biſhope / and the Archbiſhope are deacons alſo: becauſe they ſometimes had that degree. And then yt is required off them / that they doe the offices off all thoſe functions / the names Wheroff they beare: for there are no idle / and voide names in the churche / whiche can be ſeuered from doinge the dewties / that thoſe titles require. And it is as if a man paſſinge from one office / or dignitie in the common wealth / vntounto an other / vntill he come to the higheſt: beinge in that office / or dignitie / ſhoulde be ſaide ſtill to hauehave all the vnderunder offices / and dignities by the vvhichwhich he hathe paſſed. And not that onelyonly / but vvhen a man from priuate eſtate / is called ether to office in churche / or common welth: together with the publike parſon / vvhiche he hath gotten / he kepeth his priuate eſtate ſtill.

Yt hathe bene ſometimes (I graunte) that either throwghe ignorance off the inſtitution of God / or throwghe ambition of ſome / which deſire to hauehave all in their owne handes / or vponupon ſome extreme neceſſitie / the paſtor hathe donne that whiche belongeth to the office off a deacon / and contrariwiſe. But althowghe I ſhould graunte / that one might be ordeined to be bothe Paſtor / and Deacon (whiche is as monſtruous in Theologie / as yt is in nature / that one / and the ſame ſhoulde be halfe a man / and halfe a p. CXLIIIwoman) yet yow helpe not your ſelfe that way. For in ſayinge that he may be a miniſter of the worde, yow confeſſe that he may be alſo none / but a deacon onelyonly: whereoff alſo there are examples i… in our churche. Laſt off all / thoſe Archedeacons which hauehave the degree off a paſtor in our churche / do not examine by that they are Paſtors / but onelyonly in reſpecte that they be Archedeacons. And ſo whether he be paſtor / or deacon together / or deacon onelyonly: the diſorder remaineth ſtill / that the inferior / and he whoſe callinge is contented with ſmaller giftes / is made iudge off his ſufficiency whiche is ſuperior / and vvhoſe callinge requirethe greater giftes. Whether the Archedeacon hauehave the examination committed vntho him onelyonly: I referre me vntounto the booke off ordering miniſters / and to that whiche I hauehave before alledged. Here I vvould hauehave the reader mark / that this diſorder / of ordeininge miniſters / at the teſtimonie off an Archedeacon / came from Rome: as Ierome Ierome ad Euag. Ca. 1. Diuiſ. 6. pa. 137.bothe notethe / and confuteth.

This reaſon is altogither different from the ſeconde. For althowghe he were by neuer ſo many / and neuer ſo well examined: yet were it vnlawfull for the Biſhop / to admit him / as this third reaſon dothe ſuppoſe / that is to ſaie / vppon the credit of the Archedeacon, vvithovvt his ovvne knovvledge. vvhiche I doo not gather off the wordes off the Archedeacons preſentation (as yow would make me) but off the anſwere of the biſhop / Take heede that the perſons vvhom yovv preſent vntounto vsus, be apte, and meete for their godly conuerſation, to exerciſe their miniſteri devvly, to the honor off God, and edifyinge off the churche. vvhichwhich vvordes vvhether they hauehave that ſenſe / vvhiche I alledge: I leaue to all men to iudge off. the forme off the vniuerſities preſentation, helpethe yow not: becauſe there is no ſuche anſwere made by them againe vntounto the preſenter / vponupon whiche I grounde my argument. and yt maketh muche againſt yow. For I dowte not / but that forme of preſentation / by ſome one of that facultie / wheroff the preſented perſon is / was therfore browght in: becauſe neither all the vniuerſitie / to whom he is preſented / nor the vicechauncelor / off whom he is to be admitted / can allwaies take knowledge off his ſufficiency / for the degree he aſketh. As the vicechancelor beinge p. CXLIIIIa lawier / neither he / nor diuerſe other off the vniuerſity / off them ſelues are able to iudge / whether he be meete to practiſe in phiſike: but are driuen to ſtay vponupon the faithe off the preſenter, ſo that yow likening herein the Archedeacons preſentation to the vniuerſities: doo therby confirme / that biſhops admittance is oftentimes ſuſpended / off the truſt of the Archedeacon. I would yow had that reuerence of the holie ſcriptures / that yow pretend often: we ſhould then paſſe this controuerſic eaſely. But for the place wheroff it is 1. Tim. 3.1 Tim 3ſaid I make a ſhipmans hooſe: yt ſhall be ſeene / how trwly yow hauehave ſpoken. For the declaration wheroff / I take the 10. verſe off that chap. For when S. Paul ſaith / let them firſt be tried, and then miniſter: yt is as muche as he ſhould ſaye / that he ſhould not applie them to the miniſtery / before they were tried. Whereupon I conclude / that if that place commaunde Timothe / that he ſhoulde not applie any to the miniſterie / before triall: the ſame implieth / that he ſhould trie them. for ſo muche as any other mans triall withowt his owne / is no triall wherupon he might proceede / to the applyinge of them to the miniſtery: eſpecially conſidering that otherwiſe / he ſhould offend againſt that which he forbiddeth in another 1. Tim. 5. 22.1 Tim 5:22place / off ſodeine laying on of handes. And if it be ſaid / that it is to be vnderſtanded of the deacons: the anſwere is that iff he commaunde that off the deacons election / muche more he requirethe it in the Biſhops. And wheras he ſaithe / I am ſtill contrary to my ſelfe: I aſke him wherin? In that forſoothe I therby conclude / that the biſhop ſhould be the examiner. where did I euer denie it? But if he thinke any thinge grow vntounto the lord biſhops / or that therfore the biſhopp alone may examine and ordeine / becauſe I graunt that he hathe intereſt in booth he hathe ouercaſt / the ſumme is not ſo great. To ſhew that the ſame owght to be the examiners / that are the chuſers / it is ſufficient to hauehave ſhewed it in one: the law beinge the ſame in all / which is in one. That it can not be reſtreined vntounto Timothy alone / which S. Paul commaundeth him to doo: and that he was no biſhop / but an Euangeliſt: ſhalbe handled hereafter. Yow that charge me with contrarietie / wher there is no coulor: muſt be here this ſecond time admoniſhed off off this faulte / in this ſhort ſection. for in affirminge not once / p. CXLVnor twiſe / that thoſe thinges which touche the election is that epiſtle, are ſpoken vntounto Timothe alone: yow affirme that plainly / whiche yow denie vntounto me / that is / that S. Paul maketh the ſame the ordeiners / and examiners.

Salamon ſaith / that all the vvordes of the mouthe off god are plaine to him that vvill vnderſtand, and ſtreite to them Diuiſ. 7. pa. 138. 8. prou. 8.that vvould finde knovvledge: Wherfore I meruaile not / if the anſwer (becauſe be would ſo faine hauehave a broad vvay / wher he may driue a ſumpter horſe / and is nor contēt with the lordes path waie) finde many difficulties / and ſtoppes. But alas what paines he taketh in liftinge at a fether. And of the three difficulties that are here moued / two of them (whiche are towchinge triall of him by ſermon, or otherwiſe, and the feare leaſt he ſhoulde be an hipocrite) fall as well into the biſhopps choiſe / and examination as the peoples.

Therfore the anſwere is / that that meanes vvhichwhich the Biſhop may vſe / before he is Miniſter for his triall: that alſo may the church. And as the hipocriſie / which vttereth not it ſelffe / before 1. Tim. 5. 24.1 Tim 5:24iudgement giuen off takinge him to the miniſtery / ſteineth not the circumſpection off the Biſhop: no more can it blemiſ he the triall / off the church.

Ther remaineth onelyonly / whether to take knowledge off him / he ſhoulde come dwell with the pariſhe, and how longe, and at whoſe charges, and whether before the death off the former paſtor, or after. Yf I ſhould ſaie / that the iourney he taketh to the biſhopp / he ſhould beſtowe in goinge to the pariſhe / and be amongeſt them / vvhat vvoulde follow? then he muſt be there a great while / or euer they can hauehave triall off him / and therby grow charges. As who ſhould ſaie / the vvhole church can not take as good notice off him / as the biſhop being but one: or as thowghe the biſhop can take better knowledge off his conuerſation in one houre / then the vvhole church can doo in one weeke. Yf therfore the churche / for triall off his conuerſation / hauehave neede to keepe him at hir charges a quarter off a yere: the biſhop hath nede / to kepe euerie one that he will admit / in his howſe a whole yeare. Which if he ſhould doo / I dowte not but we ſhould hauehave an eaſie diſputation. And if the Biſhop maie proceade to election / vppon the teſtimonie off others: why maie not the p. CXLVIchurche doo thè ſame? That which was in ould time touchinge colledges off learninge in eueryevery citie: might be now muche more iff the Biſhopes palaces / and the Canons cloiſters / vvhichwhich ſerue now to nouriſhe a ſorte off idle ſeruinge / and ſinging men / were turned into colledges / and nourceries off painefull ſtudentes.

Wher yowe ſay / but admit all theſe impoſsibilities: No admitte nothinge: hould all that yow hauehave / for all is to litle. Whatſoeuer perteineth to this cauſe / we are (God be praiſed) able to gett it at the ſwordes pointe / I meane off the word off God. yow take me vpp (for if and and) In all my whole booke vvhere hauehave I ſo manie / as yow hauehave in diuerſe pages? But vvhat are thes dowtfull dowtes? In your firſt if (which is if the pariſhe be vvholy or the moſt parte ignorant) for pariſhe / yow ſhould hauehave put church / that is to ſaie / the number off thoſe which doo profeſſe the goſpell off Chriſt. For as in the time off perſequution / when there is no Chriſtian magiſtrates / the churche ſeuereth thoſe / vvhiche being off the pariſ he / are none off the church: ſo when there is a Chriſtian magiſtrate / he owght to prouide / that thoſe vvhichwhich are not off the churche / thruſt not in them ſeiues into ſuche affaires / as (becauſe they are none off the church) they hauehave nothing to do vvith. Other wiſe in that pointe / the church ſhould be in vvorſe caſe vnderunder a Chriſtian magiſtrate / then without him: Which were abſurde. So your firſt queſtion is anſwered / that the church off God is not ignorant / nor vnable to iudge off the ſoundnes off Docrine.

To the ſecond yf vvhichwhich is of corruption off religion: I ſay / that if / the corruptiō be ſuche / as deſtreiethe the foundatiōs / as in the Arrians (whiche ouerthrow the perſon off Chriſt) as in the Papiſtes (which ouerthrow the office off Chriſt): they being no church / owght to hauehave no priuiledge off the church. If the corruption touche not the harte / and bowels off Religion / but as a ſcabb / feadeth off the owtward partes / to the deforming onelyonly off the bodie theroff / as the churches off the Iewes in times paſt / vvhichwhich thowght the ceremoniall law off meates / and drinkes / and daies not taken away: and as ſome off the churches bothe Iewes / and Gentiles / vvhichwhich thowght it lawfull to hauehave many vviues at once: thes and ſuche life / becauſe they take not awaie the title off the church / they can not barr them from their intereſt they hauehave in p. CXLVIIchoiſe off there miniſter… / and if they chuſe ſuche a one / as is no… fitt: the magiſtrate is to hinder ſuche elections / and to driue them to an other. vvherunto vvhat yowe anſwere / ſhalbe conſidered vvhen I come to that place.

And wher yow aſke what if they agree not amongest them ſelues? Euen the ſame that is donne in other elections: that the election be eſtemed off the moſte voices. And I beſeche yow / what is here that may not be ſaid off all other elections off offices in the com̄on wealth / which paſſe by the voices off many? So that in going abowt / to driue the church from this election: yow inferre a neceſſarie change / off the whole ſtate off the common wealth. And excepte the laſt off theſe queſtions / which is touching contention amongeſt the people (which is a great deale more tolerable / then vvhen one biſhop vvithowt reſiſtance / ſendeth foorth ſuche vermin amongeſt the people as vve hauehave to great experience off) ther is neuer a one / but may fall into the election made by a biſhop. For vvhat if he be vnlerned / as diuers Biſhopes be in Ireland? What if they be corrupte in religion / as ſome in England? What if a gift blinde their eies / that they can be content to winke / at the manifeſt faultes off him which is to be admitted? What if they be ouerruled off ſome noble man / of vvhom they ſtand in feare / or from vvhom they looke for ſome pleaſure? Yow vvill ſaie / all thes be beſyde the booke: ſo are all theſe vvhichwhich yow recken vpp / beſide all lawes of elections that euer vvere made / either ciuill / or eccleſiaſticall. And it is a verie vnequall / and (as of one that feareth the inſufficiencie of his cauſe) altogither a cowardly matche / thus to compare the leaſt diſordered (for orderlie I cā neuer call them) elections / which the biſhop maketh: with the leaſt orderly / and moſte troubleſome elections off the people.

And if a man ſhould iudge / off the moſt fitteſt maner of chuſinge off miniſters / by the euent: I am well aſſured / that all the Eccleſiaſticall ſtories extant / are not able to furniſhe vsus / of ſo many vnworthie miniſters / choſen by all the churches throwgheowt the world / vvhichwhich hauehave bene ſince the Apoſtles times: as hauehave ſwarmed thes fewe yeares / out of the palaces / as owt of the Troiane horſe: off that ſmale nombre off Biſhops / which are in England. Of the other ſide / if a man will caſt his eies into Fraunce / p. CXLVIIIbothe in perſecution / and in peace / and from thence looke into the churches of ſome partes of Sauoie / and yet ſtretche them ow… farther / to certeine commen wealthes in Germany / and come home to our neiggbours the Scottes: and cōpare generally the miniſters choſen off the churches / withe the moſt parte off thoſe which the biſhops make: (if he louelove not him ſelfe to muche / and be not a ſtubborne defender off that he hathe vndertaken) he ſhalbe compelled to confeſſe / as muche difference betwene the one / and the other: as betwene gould / and coper / or any other refuſe metall. And yet their is nothing / which the Anſ. doth ſuppoſe may come to paſſe here / which may not happen to them all a part / and to the greateſt parte off them / altogither. And therfore for any thing yet alleadged / the biſhops election is further off then before / and the equitie off the churches conſent / in chuſinge off Eccleſiaſticall officers / more apparant.

For the Weſtmerlande Miniſter: I doo / not here appointe any certeine parlicular rule / althoughe I doubte not / there are many wates / which the churches vponupon the perſente occaſion / ſhalbe able to take: but it is anſwered before in generall / that what way ſoeuer the biſhop may take / for his knowledge: the ſame may the churche. Yow tell me often / that it is no matter what I thinke off this, or that: ād I deſire not / that any man ſhould weighe what I ſaie / further then it hath weight off the word off God. Which rule if it be kepte / in the examination of yours alſo / as I dowbte not it willt we ſhall not neede to feare any great praie yow ſhall carrie away at this meetinge.

I hauehave ſhewed in part / and more alſo will appeare / how the reformed churches agree withe vsus. And I am aſſured / that he can not bringe one example off any other church which profeſſeth the goſpell / where the elections off the miniſters / depend vponupon the pleaſure of one.

Where he ſaithe / none is admitted of the biſhop / which hath Diu. 8 p. 1….not dwelt a conuenient time in his dioſes: The ſcolers of Cambridge go indifferently for orders (as they call them) either to Elie / or Bugden / or Peterborowghe / and ſometime to London: and I am ſure they can no hauehave dwelt in all their dioſes. Therfore either there is no ſuche law / or it is cuill kept. And what will yow doe with p. CXLIXthe Archebiſhopp: may he not ordeine in his prouince? ſo that if yow thinke the dioceſe ſo narrowe a place / as all thoſe that dwell in yt may take ſufficient triall off him that is to be ordeined: yet yow anſwere nothing for the largeneſſe off the prouince. To vvhom is that ſingulier perſon borne owt off time / and in a darke corner of the biſhops chappell before the reſt / to vvhom (I ſaie) is his habilitie ſo ſufficiently knowen? if to the Biſhop ſo owght all the reſt: to others off the dioceſe / how can he? And vvher dothe the booke preſcribe any ſuche rule / that for ſome ſuche ſinguler perſon / there may be ſuche a darke election? ſo that for any thing that I know / it is ſtill at the biſhops pleaſure. Sure I am there hauehave bene in that ſort admitted / vvhichwhich for any ſingularitie that gaue them any commendation to the miniſterie / might hauehave well bene in the taile / vvith a nomber of the reſte.

And the ende off notifyinge the daie off orders (vvhichwhich yow ſay is eſpecially / that there may be reſorte thither / of ſuche as hauehave any thinge to obiect againſt any / that is at that time to be admitted into the miniſterie) is (as I think) but a ſhifte / to ſerue this turne. the confutation vvherof may be fetched / from the Biſhopps bull / vvhichwhich being ſet vp vponupon the church dore / as by the ſounde of a trumpet to gather an armie (wheroff the greateſt parte off of them / after the biſhops hand is laid vponupon their heades / hauehave power to inuade the church of God at all occaſions) propoundeth this as the cheife ende / that if any be diſpoſed to receiue orders / he ſhould repaire to the biſhop at ſuche time / and place. For it maketh no mention as I remember / of any ſuche ende / or at the leaſt / that that is the principall ende. And if that be ſo (vvhichwhich I will not preciſely affirme / but referre it to the reader / vvhichwhich may hauehave more aſſured knowledge then I can hauehave off it) then the vntrewth off this ſaying / dothe notably appeere. for if it had bene the principall cauſe off the ſettinge vp theroff / it ought ſo to hauehave bene propounded: at the leaſte / not to hauehave bene left owt.

But whether it be / or no: it is manifeſt mockerie of the people off God / and if it ſhould be approued off the Biſhops / vvhichwhich is here alledged: I cā not ſee / how they could deliuer them ſelues / from that ſore accuſation / off making merchandiſe off the people off God / by coulorable and deceitfull vvordes. For to omitt that p. CLthe biſhop / was w…nt to goo to euerie church which had a paſtor or biſhopp / to be ordeined (as I am able to proue) and not all the churches to come vntounto him: and to let the incōuenience paſſe / how the churches throwghowt the whole dioceſe can be lodged / eſpecially oftentimes in a litle village / wher the Biſhopp giueth his orders: and to let paſſe that the bill vvhichwhich is ſet vp vponupon the churche doore / is in the latin tonge / wherby they can make no preparation / not vnderſtanding the ſounde off the trompet: I ſaie / to let all thes paſſe: what ſhould the churches doo there / to hauehave triall off the ſufficiencie off the miniſters / vvhichwhich hauehave alreadie an incumbent? for the Biſhops do as well giuegive orders / vvhen the places are full: as vvhen they are not. And what ſhould thoſe vvhichwhich vvant doo there? vvhen they know not / vvhether they ſhall hauehave one of that creation / or of ſome before: one made in that dioceſe / or in an other.

And if ſo be they were (which they can not be) ſure that they ſhould hauehave one off them / there being peraduenture fower / or fiue vvhichwhich want: either they muſt enquire into the ſufficiencie off 40. 50. yea a hundreth ſometimes (which is impoſſible): or els they may be deceyued. For the Patrone / and the biſhop are not tied nether will be / vntounto theſe vvhichwhich they hauehave made enquirie off: but will chuſe vvhichwhich they liſt of all that nombre / vvhichwhich hath paſſed throwghe the biſhops handes. And if ther vvere no moo made / then they wanted: yet vvhē they hauehave not bene conuerſant in that parte off the dioceſe / vvher the voide / and vvidowe churches be: how can they ſtand vp againſt thoſe / which they neuerſawe / nor heard of before? Therfore if there had bene any trewth ment by this pretence: the Biſhop ſhould firſt hauehave hauehave knowen / what they be vvhichwhich vvould enter the Miniſterie / and ſo giuegive the churches vvhichwhich vvant / vvarning to enquire by ſuche a day / of ſuche / and ſuche as be ſuters / and vvoers vntounto them. So that by theſe / and many other conſiderations / vvhiche I leaue to euerie ons eſtimation vvith him ſelfe: it appeareth / vvhat reuerence he hathe of the church / vvhichwhich dare offer ſuche a broken vizard / to hide from their knowledge / the diſorder off the biſhops election.

Where yowe ſay / that he muſte off neceſsitie be admitted into the miniſterie, before they can gyue any iudgemēt of his abilitie in teaching &c. In p. CLIdeede I heare yow ſpeake ſentences / and looked for ſome argumentes for the confirmation off that / which condemneth the order off diuers churches / which for better triall off their miniſters / giuegive them ſome pece off ſcripture to interprete. They hauehave bene moued with ſome reaſon: and will yow caſt yt awaie with a worde. But the order of trying his gifte off expounding / is good / and for the moſte parte neceſſarie. For althowghe yt may be perceiued by queſtioning ſhortly with him / what his vnderſtanding is in the miſterie off Chriſt: yet his vtterance / diſpoſition / and memorie (giftes neceſſarie for a miniſter) can not be tried / but by ſuche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him: which can be ſeldome betwene the ordeiners / and him that is to be ordeined. And iff in well ordered cities / ther is no man admitted to ſet vpp in any myſterie / onleſſe he hauehave offered to the Maiſters off the companie / ſome worke for a maſterpeece / and declaration that he hathe ſkil / in that he will open his ſhop for: how muche more in the miniſterie off God / owght it to be prouided / that before he be allowed to worke / in the great miſterie off our ſaluation / and laye hand to the framyng of the ſiluer veſſels of the church off God: the maiſters off the companie eſpecially (whiche are the Elders off the church) being beſt able to iudge / owght to hauehave triall / how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God.

But if M. D. which at other times loſeth the corde off lawfull vocation / will here to pinche me vvith all / girde it ſo ſtreight: I anſwere / that neither he which is to be admitted / doth it withowt vocation / being therunto called by thoſe whiche hauehave to doo in the electiō: nether doo they admit him / withowt warrant of the word of God. For the lord in com̄aunding to take a ſufficient triall of his abitilie / ād that preciſely before he be admitted: doth in that 1. Tim.. 3. 2. 10.commaundement include / all thinges that pertaine therto. For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vntounto one / ther is alſo a waye to come vntounto it / graunted withall / althowghe the ſame be not mentioned: ſo the lord in giuing to his church / power to trie his miniſters / can not by any meanes bethowght / to hauehave hedged vp the way / which leadeth neereſt vntounto that triall. And beſide the reaſon heroff owt off the word off God / ioyned with the practiſe off diuerſe churches: We hauehave plaine examples in the ſcripture p. CLIIp. 4. … ▪as I hauehave ſhewed in my former booke. And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifeſtly / the exerciſe of common place vſed in the vniuerſities / wherin younge men (that they might he better prepared for the miniſterie) do interprete in there courſes the ſcriptures / which hauehave no admittance or ordination vntounto the miniſterie? I will let yow paſſe heere / with this contrarietie with yowr ſelffe / that yow graunt to eueryevery miniſter the rule off his flock / whiche deni it ſo ſtoutlie in other places / where yow giuegive it to the Biſhops / and Archbiſhops. If yow had found ſuche a one in me: yow would hauehave made ſuche hue and crie / ſufficient to hauehave raiſed a whole countrey. But I will not preſſe your contrarieties / but wher they be pregnant. And ſo I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader / how well the anſwerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke / which were by me in this behalffe aſſigned.

Their wordes are to be ſeene / my replie / and your anſwer: let the world iudge what forehead there is in him / which ſaith / they Diuiſ 9. pa. 140.condemne all as euill, and as vnlearned: leſt I ſpend moe wordes in prouinge / that it is light at noone daies. There is more likelehoode / that for want of iuſt triall / they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge / to thoſe which are admitted by the common order. But it followeth not theroff / that they ſaie / there are none lawfullie admitted / for the cauſe before alledged. And it is vnreaſonable / yow 1. ſect. 38. pa.ſhould charge them vvith that vvhichwhich I vvrite / or vvith that the ſecond admonition vvriteth. Touching the nombre off ſufficient miniſters in Fraunce / I wrote that vvhichwhich I receiued: wether it be trew or no / it may eaſely be knowen of thoſe / vvhichwhich vvill enquire off it.

Take yow good leaue / to ſpeake all good off the vniuerſitie: it ſhalbe my recreation / after your importunate barkinges. yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her / and althowghe I be from her. yet I caried ſome of her boweles vvith me: ſo that whether there be in her / either iuſt cauſe of ioye / or ſorowe: I hauehave them in com̄on with her. I can take no exceptiō vntounto yowr 450. vniuerſitie preachers / not hauīg the regiſter of the vniuerſitie. but yow did warely ſaie / knowē preachers, and not godly preachers: for ſome of thoſe / hauehave troubled the vniuerſitie / and other places with popiſhe p. CLIIIleauen of pargatorie / free will / ād Abrahams beſome cut owt by a larger meaſure / then euer our ſauiour Chriſt taught. But to le… the corruption off ſome / and the inhabilitie off other ſome / with the ſo rare preachinge off certeine (that as at the appearinge off a comete / or blaſinge ſtarr / or ſome other notable change in the heauens: ſo at their preaching / there may be feare off ſome calamitie to come) to let all thoſe goe / to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not hauehave forgotten to ſubducte / thoſe which are taken awaie by death / thoſe vvhichwhich are thruſt owt off the miniſterie / and muſled by the biſhops / thoſe which are mued in cloiſters / thoſe which beſide the neceſſarie vſe off the vniuerſitie / remaine / there / and thoſe vvhichwhich hauing charges in the countrey / lurke there. Theſe being ſubducted / excepte the accomptes doo riſe better then yow ſhew: I feare me / that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable miniſters in the whole church of Englād / which I aſſigned before: as many as yow take from that nombre / which I reported to be in Fraunce. And alas what are theſe fiue loues / and 2. fiſhes to ſo many thowſand churches. So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares / and had not had an other ende / then is falſe owt: we ſhould hauehave had to thāke yow for this leuie of miniſters / vvhichwhich the vniuerſity hathe bred / as that which ſtrēgtheneth the fewnes off hable miniſters / which I aſſigned.

M. D. hand is ſtill on his halfepennie / and as Plautus Euclio / he ſuſpecteth eueryevery man for his treaſure: and by putting his hand ſo often to the ſore / vvhen he is not touched: he declareth plainely / vvhat is the greife. The feare of ſpoile off the churches goodes, is not vvithowt cauſe: But there was no cauſe to ſuſpecte it in the Innes off court, which off their yearly exhibitions / giuen to mainteine there ſtudies / hauehave erected vp three diuinitie lectures: more for any thing I know / then all the biſhops hauehave doone. Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie / with ſuch ſuſpitions. Yf the Centurion deſerued praiſe / for building a Synagoge / and is Luk. 7.Luke 7cōmended by the holie Goſt to all poſteritie / for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word: then they for there liberalitie / in prouidinge for the miniſter him ſelfe / deſerued a better gratulation then this. Yf they had throwen in ſomewhat p. CLIIIIinto the Corban / and botomleſſe bagge / it ſhould hauehave bene counted to them for great liberalitie: But this aide which the church getteth by encreaſe off godlie / and hable Miniſters / receiueth litle thanck. But the hatred off this cauſe draue yow headlonge vponupon them: as your aduertiſmentes vvhichwhich followe doo declare. As there are ſome among them that fauour this cawſe: ſo there are ſome / that like not off it. And yet ſeing they hauehave ioined togither / yea (vvhichwhich is verie ſtraunge) made great ſute vntounto the Biſhops / that they might of there owne charges prouide ſuche / as in ſeruinge off them might diſcharge that / vvhichwhich the biſhop hath charged him ſelfe with: your ſuſpition off ſpoilinge the church, might hauehave had a fitter lighting place / then vponupon the Innes off courte. Thus muche againſt your diſordered ſuſpition / not altogether from my purpoſe: for it ſhall ſerue to ſhew / wherupon I conceiued ſo good hope of them / and off other the gentrie off the realme / vvhichwhich hauehave in diuerſe places made the ſame contribution. Yf any hauehave forſaken the miniſterie withowt iuſt cauſe / they are giltie off a horrible fault: but I ſee yow accounte them forſakers off the Miniſterie / vvhichwhich yow hauehave thruſt owt: ſuche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt / and for going owt alſo. And if they hould any off your tenthes / and would be counſailed by me / they ſhould yelde them into your handes: leaſt in beinge partaker off your non reſidencie / they drink alſo off plages which belonge therto.Diuiſ. 10. pag. 142.

Wher yow ſaie / I hauehave not anſwered: in deede if your one mā be wiſe / ād godly / and the hūdreth fooles / and wicked: I hauehave ſaid nothinge / nor meane not now to doo / being worthier to be hiſſed owt / then to be anſwered. Yow ſaie / that the 16. Actes▪ ſheweth how well Timothy …er. 2.was thowght off: a noble interpretation. This is allwaies your faſhion / either to corrupte the places of the ſcripture: or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of. But for what cauſe dothe S. Luke tell / that he was ſo well thowght of? dothe he not ſhew in the nexte ver. to be the ſame which I hauehave alledged? And therfore Maſter Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke / addeth the word (therfore) declaringe for what cauſe that teſtimoniall was giuen. This is your reaſon / S. Luke ſheweth how well Timothy was thowght off: therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all p. CLVoccaſion off euill ſpeache, receiued him not, but vponupon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Liſtra, and Iconium. I doe not ſaie that S. Paul would not hauehave receiued him / vnleſſe that euerie ſinguler perſon had giuē teſtimonie vntounto him / vvhichwhich was in thoſe places. but I ſhewed how circunſpecte S. Paul was / in takinge any into any part off the miniſterie: and how it is not to be thowght / that he would hauehave vppon the Teſtimonie off one / proceeded vntounto any election / ſeing that in one which he him ſelfe was not ignorant what he was / to auoid the euill ſpeache off ſome / he was carefull to hauehave the teſtimonie off the church.

As it cā not be proued▪ that he would not hauehave receiued him, if all had not conſemed therto: ſo may it eaſely be ſhewed / that if the moſt part had not liked of him / he would not hauehave taken him. For beſides that it was againſt S. Paules maner / to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God: it had not bene aduiſedly done / to hauehave procured the teſtimonie off the church / for the admitting off him into his companie / if the churche not conſentinge / he would hauehave taken him, for that would hauehave bred a great flame off diſpleaſure / betwene the church / and S. Paul: and ſhould hauehave bene alwaies ſhot in the mouthe off the aduerſaries / againſt the authoritie of Timothes miniſterie / yea off Paules alſo vntounto whom he was ioyined / for that he had receiued one / diſaproued of the Chriſtians them ſelues. All which he might (by your iudgement) eaſely hauehave auoided / iff either he would hauehave reſted in his owne knowledge off him: or els hauehave addreſſed him ſelfe to ſome one for his teſtimonie / ād not to hauehave hazarded the alienatiō of the church / by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vntounto their teſtimonial.

But mine argument is nothinge worthe, becauſe it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle. Yf this be trew / S. Luke was euil aduiſed / to in title his booke the act. or deedes of the apoſtles. For it is as much in the anſ. lāguage / as a booke of deedes / which chriſtiā mē are not boūd to followe. ād yet it was not withowt cauſe / that whē there are cōteined in that booke / bothe the doctrine / and deedes of the Apoſt. S. Lu. as off the greater parte / intitled his booke / the deedes or actes of the apoſtles. wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke / repeating the ſum̄e of his goſpell / by that tranſition / or paſſage p. CLVIAct. 1. ve. 12. 3.Acts 1make one bodie of them bothe / and bind them as it were in one volume? was it not to giuegive the ſame authoritie vntounto the one / a… to the other: to ſhew that the church had wanted ſo muche / of a perfecte directiō / as it wanted of that ſtorie? Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge / ſhew that our Sau. Chriſt inſtructed thē / with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome? was it not to teache vsus / that whatſoeuer they did in buildīge of the church: they did it not of there owne heades / but by his authoritie? And if a cōmanndemēt vntounto them / be not a commaundemēt vntounto vsus: then hauehave we no word in the Scripture / to warrant baptiſme with. For the commaundement of baptiſinge / was ſpoken to the Apoſtles onelyonly / withowt any further lymytation. Fynally / vvherfore dothe S. Luke ſet owt the Apoſtles / fylled vvith the holye Goſte? Was Act. 2.Acts 2yt onelyonly to gyue credyte vntounto there doctryne / that yt ſhould be beliued: and not vntounto there Actes / that they ſhould be folowed? yes aſſuredlie / vntounto there acres / that they ſhould of euerie one / according to his vocation (where they maye) be folowed.

For the further confirmation wheroff / yt ys to be conſydered what S. Paul vvrote vntounto Tymothe. Whom he inſtructynge / 2 Epiſt. 3. 10. verſ.how he ſhould behaue hym ſelffe / towardes the troublers off the church: dothe not onelyonly call him to the regard off his doctrine / but alſo his conduite / or maner off doing. Wherby he meant to note / his order / and maner off doyng in the church off God / and publykly: for yt could be ſmally otherwiſe to the purpoſe / off that vvherfore yt ys alledged. Sanct Paules pryuate doynges / could gyue Tymothy lytle inſtruction how he ſhould behaue hym ſelfe / towardes the troublers off the Church. To the Phillippians alſo he callethe the Biſhoppes / Deacons / and whole 4. Phil. 9.church / both to doing off that which they heard / and which they had ſene in hym. Yf therfore S. Paul / will hauehave the churches followe that vvhichwhich he did amongeſt them: yt ys manifeſt / that the Actes off the Apoſtles / are rules for vsus to followe. And vnleſſe this be admitted: I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the ſcripture he can proue / the impoſition of handes which I think he will not denie to be neceſſarie. And this is that / vvhichwhich M. Caluin doth flatly affyrme / that the example off the Apoſtles 4. li. inſti. …. cap. 16. ſe….in layinge on of handes / vponupon hym which ys to be ordeined / coun| p. CLVIIterualleth a commaundement / and owght to be folowed. And if where I hauehave ſaid / the doinges of the Apoſtles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches / he aſke how: I anſwere / that that they did in eſpeciall caſes / then is to followed / vvhen ſuche caſes fall: thoſe which they did ordinarily / and generally / to be ordinarily / and generally followed. Thoſe thinges which they did in founding off churches / and before they were eſtabliſhed / to be in life maner vſed: thoſe which they did / when the churches were eſtabliſhed / to be in the ſame maner ordered.

And (to enter yet further into this matter) Where he ſaithe / that the argument is nothing worth, which is drawen of the facte of the Apoſtle: by the ſame reaſon he alſo condemneth / argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Chriſt / and muche more / of all other holie men / and Prophetes. Wherof the ſcripture is full / as when our Sau. Chriſt / proueth that it was lawfull in ſome caſe to breake the corporall reſte of the Sabothe / by the example off Dauids Marc. 2. 26. 4. Luk. 25. 26. 27,Mark 2:26Mark 2:4eating of the ſhew bread. As when he excuſed him ſelfe / that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth / where he was nouriſhed vp / rather then in Capernaum and other places: by the examples off Elias / and Elizeus / by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation. all theſe argumentes if M. D. had had the anſweringe of them: he would as it ſemeth / hauehave ſaid vntounto our ſauiour Chriſt / that they are nothing worth.

I graunt / there be ſome actes of our Sauiour Chriſt / and other godlie men in the ſcripture / vvhichwhich being commendable in them / would not be ſo in vsus: they hauinge ſome either extraordinarie ſpirite / or commaundement vvhichwhich we hauehave not. Off which ſort / Idowbte not but Maiſter Zuinglius mente this ſentence / which yow alleadge: As would hauehave bene eaſely ſeene / yf yow had quoted the place. I think he hathe bene alledged / ād quoted aboue fortie times before / and neuer a ſentēce that maketh either whot / or coulde to the matters in controuerſie / or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were ſo / or noo: this onelyonly place was ſomewhat materiall / and here it is not quoted. But to come againe to thoſe extraordinarie factes: I ſaie / that as the ſpoilinge off the Egyptians by the Iſraelites at the commaundemēt off God / and the killinge of Coſby / and Zamry by Phinchas / throwghe the p. CLVIIIinſpiration off the ſpirite off God / can not let vsus from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull / that the Magiſtrate only owght to puniſhe publike malefactors: ſo thoſe fewe Actes vvhichwhich doon of our Sau. Chriſt / the Apoſtles / and other godlie men / are not to be folowed off vsus / : can not let vsus to teache generally / that there Godly deedes which lie in vsus to doo / owght to be followed. And as I may reaſon notwithſtanding thoſe exāples / that he is a thefe / becauſe he hath taken that vvhichwhich an other hath labored for againſt his will / and he is a murtherer / becauſe he hathe ſlaine a malefactor / being no magiſtrate for that purpoſe: ſo I may ſaie he dothe well / for ſo our Sau. Chriſt did / ſo did the patriarches: and he dothe euill / for our Sauiour Chriſt / the Apoſtles / the patriarches did otherwiſe in that caſe. And he that ſhall denie this argument / vvithowt ſhewinge ſome ſpeciall / and manifeſt reaſon / Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that / vvhichwhich was not for the other: he is vnworthie to be a ſcholer in the diuinitie ſcooles much leſſe Doctor. Yf therfore the Anſ. would hauehave by any Good order / put me from the poſſeſſion of this place: he ſhould hauehave ſhewed / that S. Paul of ſome ſpeciall occaſion / which falleth not into our miniſterie / vſed this circumſpection in taking ſuche a clowde off witneſſes / for the aſſurance off Timothies good behauior: or that there is ſome generall rule / and commaundement to the contrarie. But that as he hathe not done: ſo he can not doo / there being no one ſtepp / of any ſuch either particular cauſe / or generall rule / either mentioned / or to be gathered of that place / or of any other ſcripture. It muſt therfore be eſtemed that S. Paul did that / of a generall equitie / and common conuēience / which owght to be vſed in ſuch graue / and weightie matters off the church.

Yea if M. D. Would hauehave a litle laid a ſyde / his inordinate deſyre off mainteining that which he hath once written. he ſhould hauehave founde / iuſter cauſe of this circumſpection in our elections / then in this. For if S. Paul an Apoſtel / endewed vvith ſuche a gift of diſcretion of ſpirites / would not take Timothy / vvhichwhich had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures / and had liued in all commendation from his infancie / Timothe I ſay / whom he had now knowen (as it may be verie probably ſhewed) of ſome reaſonable time / into companye of his miniſte| p. CLIXrye / withowt ſuche diligent circumſpection: how muche leſſe may a Biſhop / in authoritie inferor vntounto him / in gifte of diſcerninge ſpirites / not to be compared. receyue into the myniſtery / vponupon the Teſtymonie off one onelie / a man vvhom he hathe not knowen before / and vvhatſoeuer he be / in knowledge of the word of God far behinde / Timothy? And yt is not to be let paſſe (for further anſwere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius / Of a deede, or an example to make a lavv) that yt hath bene ſhewed / to hauehave bene the practiſe of all the Apoſtles at other tymes / in there elections: and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule / but off the continuull practiſe of the Apoſtles.

Moreouer by defenſe of receiuing at the teſtimony of one onelyonly / what doth he els / then make as eaſie an entrance into the higheſt place off the church off God: as a man off any calling / and wiſdome ioyned with yt / would make into one of the leaſt offices of his howſe? for ſurely if he hauehave any regarde vntounto the good order of his howſe / and conſider that the miſbehauiour off his ſeruāte / vvhom he vvill put in any truſt / reacheth vntounto the diſhonour of him ſelfe / and his vvhole howſhold: he vvill neuer admit him vvhom he knoweth not / vvithowt ſome one mans commendation / off whom he is well aſſured.

But the law of God in this behalfe / is moſt clere: which to the deciding of a vveighty matter in dowbt / requireth two witneſſes / and if it can be thre: and namely where the iudgement is of bloude / yt expreſly forbiddeth / that iudgement ſhould paſſe vponupon Numbr. 35. Deut. 17.Deut 17the Teſtimonye of one. But in the iudgement of a miniſter / where the queſtion is of a great numbre / of deſtruction of bodie / and ſoule / and that for euer: ſhall it being dowbtfull / be giuē vpō one mās teſtimonie / how ſufficient ſo euer he be? Eſpecially / ſeing that there owght to be greater triall / and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters / thē in ciuil cauſes. which may appeare further / by that which S. Paul writeth vntounto Tymothie: Where he willeth / that he ſhould not receyue an accuſaciō againſt an elder / but vpō two / or there witneſſes. For wherein ciuill cauſes / euen off bloude / the iudge may proceede vntounto the ſentence off condemnation / vppon two or thre witneſſes: S. Paul vvill not hauehave Tymothie / not ſo muche as to receyue an accuſation / againſt an elder / vvithowt p. CLX1. Tim. ….ſo many. In ciuill cauſes a man may be dryuen to his purgation of bloude / and to his anſwere / vponupon the accuſation off one / althowghe he can not be ſo condemned / vvithowte his owne confeſſion / or other triall / that falleth owt after the accuſation commenced: but the elder ſhall not be driuen to anſwere vppon one mans Teſtimonie.

There remaineth to anſwere that / vvhichwhich is alledged off Paules receiuynge into the companie off the Apoſtles / by Teſtymonie of one. which if I ſhould anſwere as M. D. dothe / I would aſke him how he proueth / that vvhichwhich he ſaith ys manifeſt: for yt ys not expreſſed there / that they receiued him vppon Barnabas reporte. If I had ſaid ſo / he would hauehave charged me with arrogancie / th… I dare ſet downe that / which the holie goſte hath not reueled. For it is ſaid he was receiued / but that he was owt off hand receiued, or at Barnabas report, it is not expreſſed. And if I would walke his way / I could anſwere / that it might be / that they fyrſt enquired off the trewth off thoſe thinges / which Barnabas teſtified / before they receyued hym. But I leaue this anſwere / to thoſe which thinke there ys no light in the worlde / to diſcouer ſuche follies: and thinke / that S. Lukes meaning was / to ſhew that he was receiued vponupon Barnabas witneſſe.

For anſwere therfore I ſaye: fyrſt / that he vſeth weight / and vveight / meaſure and meaſure / which being abhominable before God / in biyng and ſelling ſuche baſe thinges: yt ys ſeuen folde more / in this holie traffyke off the glorious word off God. For when we gyue M. D. for profe off triall in the miniſters election / that vvhichwhich vvas vſed in the Deacons / which ys like / and comprehended vnderunder one heade: he laieth in ſo heauie a vveight / wherby he would make vsus beliue / that the proſe ys to light / ſaynge / that it is of the election of deacons, and maketh nothinge for vsus. Now vvhen he deliuereth vsus a profe / that an election may paſſe by one witnes / he putteth in a lighter weight / for he bringeth in an example off S. Paul / one not then to be choſen / but alreadie choſen: Which came not to receiue any authoritie / wherby he might be enhabled / to doo that afterward which he could not doo before: but to conferre of that / which he had done before: Which came not to ſubmit him ſelfe to any triall / but which had as good right to trie / as to be p. CLXItried / to enquyre / as to be enquyred vponupon. And that I take a… aduantage off this / that it vvil be hard at any tyme to find a witneſſe / ſo withowt all exception as Barnabas / which knew Saint Paul ſo well off whom he vvitneſſed / and was knowen ſo vvell vntounto the Apoſtels / to vvhom he cōmended him: I think there i… no glew ſo ſtronge / as can ioyne thes togither / A man vvhichwhich is dowbted off may be receiued to talke / and conferre vvith an other at teſtymonie of one: therfore he maye be receiued to the myniſterie / of the lyke Teſtymonie. Againe / three Apoſtles may receyue one to there conference / vponupon one mannes vvitneſſe: therfore one biſhopp / may receyue one to teache others / vppon a ſyngle vvitneſſe. Laſt off all (vvhichwhich is moſt abſurd) three Apoſtles may at the vvitneſſe off one man / receyue one that is dowbted off for a diſciple / or one off the church: therfore one Biſhop may likewiſe receiue one dowbted of / to be a myniſter of the church. for it is cleere by S. Luke vvhichwhich ſaith / that S. Paul firſt aſſaied to ioyne him ſelfe vntounto the church: that their conſultation vvas not / vvhether Act. 9. 26Acts 9:26they ſhould receyue him as an Apoſtle: but they feared that he vvas a vvolfe / and vvent aboute vnderunder the colour off profeſſing the Religion of Chriſt / to betray the whole churche off Ieruſalem. So that yf they had bene perſuaded off him / as off a Chriſtian: they vvould hauehave admitted him into the church / withowt the Teſtymonie of Barnabas.

Touching the place of the kinges 1. 12. 3…. The holie Goſte doth there / laye to Ierobohams charge / bothe that he made them Duiſ. 11. 12 pa. 143off the baſeſt off the people / vvhichwhich vvas a great prophanation of the Myniſterie: and that he toke them not owt off the tribe off Leuie / vvhichwhich vvas an other fault. For if he had taken off the wiſeſt / and honeſteſt families of other tribes / he would not hauehave ſaid that he toke thē of the baſeſt of the people. And therfore that place vvas fitly alledged in that ſenſe vvhichwhich I ſet downe: and yow that can ſee no other cauſe, why yt ſhould be quoted, vnleſſe yt were to proue that the miniſterie ſhould be tied to one degree, or calling: doo your ſelffe more iniurie / then a modeſt aduerſarie would. For the light off the place is ſuche / that it will ſuffer no man to be ignorāt / which hath but halffe an eye to ſee. And yet yow bluſhe not to require in your next ſection / an other anſwere vntounto it. I could hauehave repeated my p. CLXIIanſwere as yow hauehave there twiſe hard togither / obiected the ſame thing: but if I be not able to intertaine my reader / with that varietie vvhichwhich I vvould: yet vvould I be lothe to deceiue him / and make him beleue / that mutton roſted / and roſted mutton be two ſeuerall diſhes. For let the reader iudge / whether ther be any other difference / betwene that vvhichwhich yow confeſſe my anſwere vntounto / and that firſt ſection in the page follovvinge / vvherunto yow require anſwere: and vvith thoſe colewortes twiſe ſodden / yow ſee I vvas content to let yow goo / as I hauehave done vvithe a numbre off other your faultes. To the reſt I anſwer not.

What is the neceſſitie off Iudicialls / I hauehave declared. Touchinge Ca. 2. Di. 2. pa▪ 144 Eze. 44.Ezek 44the not entrie off the incircumciſed in harte, and fleſhe into the ſanctuarie of the lord, vvhichwhich the Anſ. alledgeth to proue / that the law touching the reiectinge off Idolatrous prieſtes, is aboliſhed: change the ſanctuarie into church / vvhichwhich it be tokeneth / and incircumciſion into the want off baptiſme / vvhichwhich vvas the ſame vnderunder the law / vvhichwhich this is vnderunder the goſpell: and then it is the morall / and euerlaſtinge law off God / that none vvhichwhich is heatheniſh in minde / and vvithall profeſſeth the ſame / by the not receiuinge off the holie Sacrament off baptiſme / ſhould be admitted to the church off God. And if he ſaie / that it is not perpetuall / for that incircumciſion of the fleſhe / is now no fault: he owght to vnderſtand / that the eſtate off the church in the goſpell / is ſhadowed owt by thoſe thinges / vvhichwhich vvere vſed vnderunder the law: As vvhen it is ſaid / there ſhalbe an aulter built vp vntounto the lord in the middeſt off Aegypte, that their ſhalbe no Canamite in all the mountaine Iſa. 19 19 Zach. 14. ….Isa 19:19Zech 14off God. And therfore as the remouinge off aulters owt off the church / vvhichwhich then vvere in vſe / and receiuing in one off the nation off Canaan into the church / vvhichwhich vvas then vnlawfull / derogateth nothing from the ſtablenes of theſe lawes: ſo the admittinge off one vvhichwhich is incircunciſed in fleſhe / doth nothinge diminiſhe the vnchaungeablenes off that law / vvhichwhich the Prophete there mentioneth. I am well content therfore that theſe two be matched / and that they die / and liue togither.

The other place / of entringe in clothed withe linnen, compared withe this: hath no coulour off argument. For it dothe not folowe / that p. CLXIIIbecauſe the ceremoniall law is abrogated / therfore the iudiciall is alſo. Are theſe your circūſtances / that declare the meaning off the place? let it be admitted that bohte theſe lawes / the one which goeth before / the other which followeth after / are abrogated: doth it followe therefore that this is alſo / of reiecting idolatrous preiſtes From the miniſterie? That vvhichwhich is alleadged by the admonition / is the 10. verſe. of 44. chapter / and althowghe one of the places alledged by yow / be the verſe next going before / yet the ſecond is the ſeuenth verſe / after the place of the admonition. Now if it be ſound reaſon which yow alledge / all thoſe lawes in the Teſtament which are ſo placed / that they hauehave either a ceremoniall / oriudiciall law next going before them / and another following within the compaſſe off 7. verſes: are either quite abrogated / or els not perpetuall. Which if it be trew: fare well Moſes / fare well the Prophetes / fare well the morall lawes off God: they may all depart with the D. good leaue / nay for that they wil not ſerue him / he thruſteth them owt. Before he picked them here / and there: but this is an engine / to ouerthrowe them all at once. For I appeale to all your knowledges / vvhichwhich hauehave euerreade the law / if there be any one off the perpetuall lawes off God: which may not be found in ſome place off the law / and Prophetes ſo placed as this is: and againſt the which this exceptiō which the D. doth ſo bouldly auouche / may not be made. I could I am well aſſured / runne throwgh all the cōmaundementes / and by this reaſon hurle them euerie one owt of the church / yf yt were not follie to labour in confutinge of ſuche phrēſies as theſe are: ād the thing alſo were not ſo plaine / as none of any reading in the oulde Teſtamēt / can be ignorāte. ſo that his pen̄e is a pēknife to cut a ſonder al the ſcriptures.

Touchinge the interpretation off the wordes of the Apoſtle / that the miniſters being tied, ſhould execute their functions, as longe as they continue vnblameable: I toke the ſenſe vvhichwhich was fyt for my cauſe / and neither againſt the ſcope off the Apoſtle / nor any grammer conſtruction. Yow ſaye the greke is / if in triall foreign.they be found blameleſſe. Becauſe yow tie me ſo faſt vntounto the nombre of wordes / where hauehave yow this tranſlation? or in the greeke wordes yow alledge / what hauehave yow to beare thes wordes (in triall? or ſhew me whie I may not / as well reſolue the participle into p. CLXIIIIthe coniunctine mode / by the coniunction (ſo longe as) as by the coniunction (if): as longe as I doo it / neither againſt the trewth / nor againſt the purpoſe off the Apoſtle. I graunt that ſenſe trew / but why may not this alſo be ioyned: ſeing bothe the wordes / and ſcope off the Apoſtle / will beare bothe? yow ſhould therfore hauehave ſhewed / that theſe wordes will not beare this ſenſe / and yf yow ſhew me that / yet can yow not put me from houlde of that place. For as muche as yt is moſt iuſtlie concluded / that if the miniſters muſt be blameleſſe / before they come to the miniſterie▪ they owght muche more ſo to be / in the execution off it: conſidering that falles in execution off the miniſterie / are more daungerous to the church / then thoſe before.

Althowgh triall be made before admiſſion / and off thinges paſt: yet is it done in reſpecte off the miniſterie that ſhall followe. Therfore yt agreeth well vvith the triall / That S. Paul ſhould giuegive vvarninge / that they ſhould no longer be ſuffred to Miniſter: then they remaine ſuche / as by triall they vvere ſuppoſed to be. And where yow ſaye / that it is ſpoken in that place off deacons: yt ys muche more off Biſhops. And yff a Deacon fallinge awaie from the trewth / owght to be put from the charge / or honor vvhichwhich he had in the church: muche more a biſhop. But I nothing dowbt / but that the Apoſtel referred this ſentence / vntounto bothe a biſhop / and deacon. For hauing before ſpoken / off them bothe aparte: he dothe here ioyne them together / in that vvhichwhich is com̄on to them: ye… belōging rather to the biſhop / then to the deacon. And it is as muche as yff the Apoſtle ſhould ſaie: I hauehave ſet before thine eies / vvhat be the qualities / bothe off the biſhopp / and deacon: looke now none be permitted to come vntounto theſe offices / vvhichwhich hauehave not bene tried before. And that this is ſoo / it may appeare / for that the nexte verſe / which is thouching the qualities off wiues / is not onelyonly a deſcription / what wiues the deacons / but what wiues alſo the Biſhops / ſhould hauehave. Vnleſſe we will ſaie / that S. Paul trauailed in deſcribing off the deacons wiues / and lefte the biſhopps wiues vntouched: which how yt ſoundeth in other mens eares / I can not tell / in mine it is abſurde. Againe if the 10. and 11. verſes had bene to be vnderſtanded off the Deacons trial / Paule p. CXLVand their wiues onlie: S. Paule would not hauehave begonne his 12. verſe as he did / by a repetion of the name off Deacons. For yt had bene enoughe to hauehave ſaid / let them be the huſbandes of one wife: now when he ſaith (let the deacons, &c.) he declareth / that he had diſcontinued his proper treatiſe of deacons / which he reſumeth againe / by that maner off expreſſinge the name off a deacon.

The ſenſe which I hauehave alledged / ſoundeth no whit that way / that the vertue off the word, &c. ſhould depend off the good life off the miniſter. What likelihood is there betweene theſe / a miniſter vvhichwhich hathe fallen into idolatrie, ovvght not to be receiued, althovvghe he repent, and be neuer ſo holie: and this / that yow ſurmiſe off me / that the vertue off the word, &c. dependeth vppon the holines off the miniſter? Was the ſpirite off God Anabaptiſticall / whiche ordeined this firſt? did he therfore forbidd the Leuites approche vntounto the table off the Lord / be cauſe he woulde teache men / that the vertue off the Sacramentes, depended off the holines off the miniſters? did the churches which vſed and eſtabliſhed this order / the fathers which taught it / therby eſtabliſhe Anabaptiſtrie? I did not take vppon me to tranſlate the place / neither doo I vſe for euerie place vvhichwhich I alledge / to goo to the tranſlations: I toke (as I ſaid) that which was for my purpoſe / and whiche I thowght warranted / bothe by the wordes / and intent of the Apoſtle. And yf I ſhoulde conſulte / and conferre all translations: could yow helpe me to a greeke text that doth translate the newe Teſtament. Either yow be a great ſtraunger in Grece: or yow hauehave traueiled further into it / then any man that I hauehave heard off. I hauehave heard off a greke paraphraſe / vvhichwhich is vvith ſome moo vvordes to bringe light to the texte / as off the Scoliaſt: and off Metaphraſe / which is to chaunge the profe into meter / as Nonnus did S. Iohn: but off a greke tranſlation off the newe Teſtament / I neuer heard. But this vvas not off euill will / and therfore I eaſelie forgiue yt yow.

The rules which S. Paul giueth in that chapter / are not onelie to teache that he that is endued withe thoſe qualities there 1. Tim. 3.1 Tim 3deſcribed / owght to be choſen to the Miniſterie: but alſo teache / that thoſe which hauehave them not / ſhould not be admitted: and yf p. CLXVIyf they be / ſhould be depoſed. And this yow might eaſely hauehave learned foreign.by common reaſon / vvhichwhich ſaith / that there is the ſame knovvledge off contraries.

S. Peters, and S. Paules admiſsions vntounto the Apoſtleſhipp, was to be handled in the next ſection / where I preuent theſe obiections / and giuegive no occaſion to ſpeake off them here: yet they are plucked in before the time / and barely affirmed / withowt any confutation off the reaſons / which I alledge. What confuſion is this / and how lothſome repetitions are theſe?

I ſaye that one that hathe bene an adulterer / ſhould not be receiued into the miniſterie: I proue it / for that S. Paule will not admit one to the miniſterie / that hath had two vviues at once. And that it owght to be extended / not onelyonly to the tyme off his choiſe / but alſo to the reſt off his life: I proue by that vvhichwhich is ſaid / of the choiſe of the widowe / where S. Paul makethe this one 1. Tim. 5.1 Tim 5condition / that ſhe ſhould be ſuche a one / as hathe had but one huſband at once / and whiche had not bene maried vntounto another / after an inſufficient diuorce. For that that is the meaning off the Apoſtle (althowgh Maiſter Caluinfolowed an other ſenſe) is verie plentifully / and ſubſtantiallie ſhewed by M. Beza. Wherupon I concluded / if S. Paule would not admitte her to the loweſt office in the church / which at any tyme had two huſbandes: muche leſſe his meaning was / to admit to the cheiffeſt office in the churche / one which at any tyme had had two wiues at once. This the Anſwerer / as thowghe he had neuer feene or hard off yt / paſſeth by: for what anſwereth he? Forſoothe that he dowbteth not. but the whoremonger if he repent, &c. may be admitted vntounto the miniſterie. And if I ſhould hauehave anſwered / I doubt not the contrarie: What then? what anſwereth he further? that S. Paules minde is not, to ſeclude him that had two wiues, or hathe bene a whoremonger, &c. I hauehave denied it / and hauehave ſhewed the reaſon off the contrarie: he hathe anſwered nothīg. For wher he afterward ſpeaketh of the widowe / which be denieth can be ſaid, to hauehave ledd all her liffe in good workes: he anſwereth not to that / vvherin the point off the reaſon liethe / which is / that ſhe ovvght not to be admitted, vvhichwhich hathe had more huſbandes at once▪ then one: yff that be graunted vntounto me: it is p. CLXVIIſufficient for the purpoſe / I alledged that place for.

Nether was it enowghe for yow to paſſe by my reaſon / but yow muſt moſt ſhamefullie moue ſuſpition vntounto the reader / off my fauoring off the popiſhe bigamie. What likelihoode is there betwene whoredome / or hauing two wiues at once: with hauing two wines one after the deathe off an other / or marying a vvidowe / vvhichwhich the Papiſtes call bigamie? yff yow hauehave no feare of God before your eies: ys there no reuerence off men?

The firſt off your reaſons / to proue that a knowen adulterer may be receiued into the miniſterie: is that S. Paule by forbidding to receiue vntounto the miniſterie, one which had bene a whoremonger, or which had two wiues at once ſhould deale otherwiſe withe them, then he was dealt withe all him ſelfe. I gaue the reaſon off this in the ſection folowinge / that our Sau. Chriſt (hauing the law in his owne hande / and making no law to him ſelffe / but for vsus) might doo that which is not lawfull for the churche to doo: whiche reaſon being neither anſwered here / nor els where / owght to hauehave ſtaied yow frō this anſwer. I gaue this weapō / but I turned the edge of it / ād made it flat: yt was not therfore to warre vvithe all / vnleſſe yow had ſet a new edge.

This ſolution / that it is not lavvfull for the churche, nor for all the churches in there elections, to doo that vvhiche vvas lavvfull for our Sauiour Chriſt: yf it doo not plainlie enowghe appeare / in the examples off theſe two Apoſtles / it may be ſeene in the election off them all. For it is not lawfull for any Apoſtle / or for all the Apoſtles / or for all the churches ioyned together / to appointe any to the myniſterie / vvhichwhich is not fit for the myniſterie / at the tyme when he is choſen vntounto yt: But our Sauiour Chriſt choſe / and apointed eleuen Apoſtles / to preache throwghe owt the vvhole Math. 28. 19.Matt 28:19worlde / when as they had but one onelyonly tonge / off the contrey where they were borne / the charge wherunto they were appointed / requiring the knowledge off many tongues. And in this example off S. Paules calling vntounto the myniſterie / yt is clere / that our Sau. Chriſt dealt otherwiſe / then S. Paule deaiethe withe other. For he was called to the Apoſtleſhipp / as ſone as euer he was called to the churche? whiche he forbiddethe by expreſſe wordes / 1. Tim. 3. 6.1 Tim 3:6when he warneth / that he be no nevv plante, that is to ſaye / p. CLXVIIIlatelie come to the knowledge off the trewth / vvhichwhich is to be taken to the miniſterie. So that yow ſee S. Paule dealethe otherwiſe withe other miniſters, then he was dealt withall himſelfe.

The next reaſon is / that we reade off none depoſed from their miniſterie in the new teſtament, althowghe they were founde in manie thinges giltie. is it not lawfull for vsus / to reaſon againſt the vnlawfullnes off a thing / for that yt is not in none off bothe the teſtamentes / neither directly / not indirectlie / neither expreſſedly / nor conteinedly: and ſhall yow conclude negatiuely / vppon the examples onelie off the new Teſtament? The new Teſtament makethe mention off notable 4. Ioh. 8. Ioh.John 8Harlots / and thoſe alſo whiche were off the churche / and yet yt makethe no mention that either they receiued any ciuill / or eccleſiaſticall correction: therfore (by your reaſon) notable Harlots / are not to be puniſhed / either with ciuill / or eccleſiaſticall correction.

But Chriſt knewe Iudas to be a traytor, and yet he did not depoſe him: ſo he knewe him to be a traitor / when he choſe him. Therfore if this be a good reaſon / that a traitor to God and the goſpell ſhould not be depoſed: it hathe the ſame force to proue / that a traitor may be choſen to the miniſterie. Moreouer / Iudas was admitted to the lordes ſupper / therfore if this reaſon will ſerue to proue / that a traitor ſhould not be depoſed: yt is good to proue / that he may be alſo receiued to the lordes table. Iudas treaſon was as yet hidden / there were no witneſſes off it / and therfore by no law off God / either ciuill / or eccleſiaſticall / could be proceaded againſt. For the law off God in all eccleſiaſticall / and ciuill puniſhmentes / requireth either confeſſion by the partie / off the faulte vvhiche is committed / or els profe by witneſſe.

He proceedeth ſaying that the Scribes, and Phariſes criminous &c. are commaunded to be hard in the chaire, &c. Good lord be mercifull vntounto vsus / whether vvill this man goo? vvill he hauehave traitors vntounto Chriſt / ſworne / open / and profeſſed enemies vntounto the goſpel / to hauehave charge in the church off God / and not to be depoſed? for whether can theſe examples tend els? our Sauiour Chriſt commaunded the people that they ſhould be heard / in that they ſaid trewly owt off the law / and that their faultes ſhould not hinder thē / to embrace that which they taught well. What is that to our p. CLXIXqueſtion? this dothe aptely proue / that the vertue off the worde / dothe not depende vponupon the worthynes off the miniſter: and thetherto it is referred. But to proue that they owght not hauehave bene depoſed from theire miniſterie / there is not a word. But why did our Sauiour Chriſt not depoſe them? And vvhy did he vvill there doctrine agreable to the law to be receiued? He depoſed them not for that as he was the Miniſter off circumciſion / he coulde not: hauing not to doo that wayes / but vvithe thoſe that vvoulde ſubmit themſelues to his doctrine. And if he ſhould hauehave giuen ſentence off there depoſition / they vvould not hauehave obeied yt: and he had not the ſvvorde to compell them. This therfore remained for hym to doo / that vvhen neither the people could ſhake off their yoke / nor he diſplace them: that as he had often giuen warning / off their falſe doctrine: ſo he ſhould will them to take heede / that neither the hatred off there euill liffe / nor off their falſe doctrine driue them to miſlike off that / vvhichwhich vvas well taught. And iff this be a good reaſon to proue / that thoſe that be criminouſe ſhould not be depoſed / becauſe our Sauiour Chriſt willed the people to Ioh. 10. Matth. 7. Luk. 16. Luk. 10. 25.John 10Matt 7Luke 16Luke 10:25heare, &c: Then ſpirituall theues / and murtherers / corrupters off the law / teachers off iuſtification by workes / owght not to be put owt off the miniſterie. For thoſe off vvhom our Sauiour Chriſt ſpake theſe thinges / were ſuche.

And as for the wicked preachers in the church off Philippos: fyrſt yow are greatlie abuſed. For althowghe he vvrite vntounto the Philpiane / yet theſe preachers he there ſpeaketh off / were in the church of Rome / and not in the church of Philip. And thē / if I ſhould aſke yow how yow know / that he did not will their miniſterie to be taken from them your owne mouth condēneth yow. For by your rule it is preſumption / to ſpeake any thinge that the holie goſt hathe not expreſſed. And it is not onelie not expreſſed / but it can not be gathered. For if yow thinke / that therfore he willed them not to be depoſed / becauſe he was gladd / that Chriſt was preached by them: yow deceiue your ſelfe. For he ſaith if he vvere offered vp and ſhould die 2 cap. phil. 17. 18.for confirmatiō of his miniſterie: yet he vvould reioice in it, and requireth the vvhole church to reioyce vvithe him for yt. Would not therfore S. Paule hauehave eſcaped the Tirātes hand / if he might p. CLXXlawfuly? or owght not the church of Philippos / to hauehave forbiddē the puttinge to death off the Apoſtell / yff they could hauehave done yt? So that yow ſee / a man maye reioyce at the fruite off an action / that an other doeth: which if it laie in him to let / he owght not ſuffer to be done. For when as of euill doinge / maye come good / as we owght to be ſorie at the euill which is done: ſo it is lawfull for vsus to reioice of the good / vvhichwhich hathe followed that euill. And this diſtinction off reioycinge / S. Paul dothe include in theſe Philip. 1. cap. 18. v. foreign.Phil 1wordes in this, vvhichwhich he ſetteth downe to be / in that Chriſt is preached. As yff he would ſaye / yt greueth me that the word is preached by ſuche men / but yet I am glad that yt is preached.

And althowghe it be hard to knowe / how they ſought to add to S. Paules bandes / yet if be trew that the greke Scoliaſt vvriteth / that they did it to this ende / that the perſecutors ſeing the numbre off the profeſſors of Chriſt / might (beinge more inflamed againſt S. Paul / as one vvhichwhich had ſowen the firſt ſeed) the rather haſten his death: vvho ſeeth not that it had bene the churches parte at Rome / to hauehave to the vttermoſt off their power / endeuored to hauehave ſtopped the mouth off thoſe preachers? therfore I am well aſſured / that yf the godlie off the church vvhichwhich vvas at Rome / could hauehave reſtreyned thoſe preachers: they vvould not hauehave ſuffred them / to hauehave abuſed the goſpell to his ſtreighter impriſonment / much leſſe to the taking away off his life. And therfore that they were not reſtreined / proueth nothinge that they owght not by any meanes / ſo to hauehave bene: but rather argueth the fewnes of the church / which fauoured ſinceritie off the goſpell / that S. Paule preached / which fewnes alſo appeareth in an other place.…. Tim. 4. 16.

The next reaſon is verie ſtraunge / that everie one which is a membre off the inuiſible church, ſhould be a miniſter off the viſible. For by this meanes / may be taken not onelie the moſt vnhableſt in the church: but thoſe alſo / which are not yet called to the church. But your meaning is / if he be off the church / and other thinges correſpondent. yet one off thoſe conditions is no where expreſſed / and the other is almoſt thirtie lines before in an other ſectiō / ād in an other caſe: ſo that it is daungerouſly ſpoken / and may gyue very great p. CLXXIoccaſion off offenſe. And I leaue it to the conſideratiō of the te… der / how often yow hauehave quarreled / vvhere there is nothing the like occaſion / as yow giuegive by this loſenes.

I will alſo let goo / your vnproper / and vnwonted ſpeach / wherby yow make one / and the ſame / at one / and the ſame tyme / a membre off the viſible / and inuiſible church. For ſeinge the inuiſible church vppon earth / is off thoſe onelyonly / which either are not called / or lie hid / ād vngathered vntounto any knowē felowſhip where the word of God is preached / and the ſacramētes adminiſtred: he which by repentaunce ioineth him ſelffe to the viſible church off God / can not be ſaid to be a membre off the inuiſible church. For as when the triumphant church is oppoſed vntounto the militante / one man / at one time / can not be ſaid to be a membre off bothe: ſo here where yow oppoſe the viſible / and inuiſible church / it can not be that he that is ſaid / to be a membre off the one / ſhould be alſo a membre off the other. But for anſwere I ſaie / that if there were here any compariſon at all / yet it halteth downe right: althowghe we owght charytably to thinke / that he that hath giuen good tokens off repentance / hath trewlie repented / and therfore is of the electe church of God: yet that foundation alwaies remaineth / that when the queſtion is of an others mans election / God knovveth vvho are his. So that yow can draw no argumēt from 2. Tim. 2. 19.2 Tim 2:19his election / which is vncertaine vntounto vsus: to conclude a certeine election / vntounto the miniſterie.

Againe why doo yow ſaie / he that is a membre off the inuiſible, maye be a miniſter in the viſible? as thowghe the inuiſible church / were off ſome higher nature / then the viſible: or as thowghe the trew membres off the viſible church / did not make one miſticall bodie off Chriſt with the inuiſible.

Therfore when all commeth to all / the reaſon is nothing els / but he is a membre off the church / ergo he is fit to be a miniſter off the church / which is very abſurd. For by this meanes all good order off diſcipline is troubled / in howſe / and in common wealthe. The maiſter which hath bene deceiued off his ſeruant / which he moſte put in truſt (as for example in the office off ſtewardſhip) if he giuegive good tokens off repentance / muſt off neceſſitie reſtore him to his place. For will he ſeclude him from his ſtewardſhip / p. CLXXIIwhom Chriſt dothe receiue into his kingdome? and ſhall not we think him / to be a meete officer in his maiſters howſe / albeit he hauehave committed adulterie with his miſtres: which is a membre off the electe churche off Chriſt? And this reaſon ſtanding / common wealthes muſt goo vpſide downe. for beſides that all thoſe lawes are condemned / which debarre men from certeine freedomes / and honours / which hauehave bene ſtained with eſpeciall vices: as he that is once conuinced off periurie / from bearing witneſſe at any tyme / &c. there maie none either traitor / or murtherer / be put to death / if he be repentante. For his pardon is caſelie pleaded by the Anſw. rule / that if he be meete to dwell in heauen / he is meete to remaine vppon earth / and if the lord giuegive him euerlaſting liffe / ſhould we denie vntounto him this trāſſitorie liffe? And not that onelyonly / but if he had had an office before / it is meete he ſhoulde be reſtored to it againe. If this be an abſurde / and anabaptiſticall kind off reaſoninge / in the diſcipline off the howſe / and gouernment off the common wealth: how is it not the ſame / in the diſcipline of the church?

And iff yow ſticke ſo hard to the example off God: it is not hard to ſhew / how that the lord remitting the faulte vntounto his children vppon their repentance / hathe notwithſtandinge kept them in ſharpe diſcipline for their faultes / all the daies off their liffe / bothe in there owne perſons / and ſometimes in there childrēs / and in all that belonged vntounto them. ſo that yf yow will needes tie 2, Sam. 12. 10.the church / to the example off goddes merciemercy / and forgiuence: that dothe not onelie not hinder theſe chaſtiſmentes / and church diſcipline: but alſo extendeth it further / then the church / or the cōmon wealth may doo.

The holie goſte by Iethro / preſcribinge what officers ſhould 18. Exod.be choſen / dothe not onelie require / that they ſhould feare God (which is to ſaie / be of good religiō) be wiſe / and valiāt: but alſo requireth foreign 7. Neh. 2.Neh 2that they be truſtie, which (as appeareth by other places off the Scripture / where this here commaunded / was put in execution) ſignifieth ſuche as were faithfull / and truſtie to the commonwealth / and which had of their former life / giuen good argumentes off there faſtnes that way. Therfore if in choiſe to the greate / and weightie charges off the cōmon wealth it is not enoughe p. CLXXIIIthat they be of good Religion / able alſo for their wiſdome / and courage off minde to execute: vnleſſe they hauehave bene founde faithfull in that eſtate / wherin they hauehave liued before: how muche more owght that to be obſerued / in committing the greateſt charge / that is vnderunder the ſonne / which is the Miniſterie off the worde? And if in common wealthes / men vvill committe no greate truſt vntounto him / which hathe deceiued the truſt / which was put vppon him: how much more owght that to be obſerued in the church? Where as the loſſe / and daunger is greater: ſo owght the truſt to be ſlower / and the parties to whom it ſhoulde be committed / more vnſuſpected. And yet for further confirmation he muſt vnderſtand / that for as muche as our Sauiour Chriſt / and S. Paule require / that a miniſter off the word off God ſhould be faithfull in his office: as thoſe to whom the choiſe belongeth / owght to hauehave regard to his former ſobrietie / continencie in liffe / and other vertues / to induce them ſelues to a good perſuaſiō off him / towching thoſe vertues: ſo owght they vppon his former life / to gather ſuche argumentes of his faithfullnes / and truſt: as therby they may be able to meintaine a ſtronge / and mightie preſumption off the faithfullnes which is to come. vvhichwhich thinge vvhen they can not doo in one / vvhoſe vntruſtines is freſhe before their eies: they can not hauehave ſufficient teſtimonie / to perſwade their conſcience / that he is of that truſt / to whō they may com̄it the church of God. For if they looke vponupon repentance vvhichwhich he profeſſeth: it cōmeth alwaies to minde / that countenāce / the eies do lie oftentimes / and mouth ofteneſt off all. And albeit vppon good / and likelie tokens / the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce: yet it can not be ſo ſure thereoff / as it is off the vnfaithfulnes. So that in vveighing the repentaunce / which is vncertaine / vvith the counterpoiſe of his vnfaithfulnes / that is certaine: it will be harde to conceiue that ſtrenght of opinion / off his …faithfulnes / wherupon they may aduenture / to put him againe in truſt with the church. At the leſte / if there be one fit for the Miniſterie / which neuer was ſtained with that fault: all men muſt needes graunt / that he is meeter / to ſatiſfie the conſciences off the chuſers / then the other: vvhichwhich the Anſ. denieth.

And as before I hauehave ſhewed / that the exāple of our Sau. Chriſt / p. CLXXIIIIin putting. S. Paule / and S. Peter into the miniſterie / is not to be folowed off vsus: So vppon the matter I hauehave here alledged / it may Ioh. 2. Pſal. 139.John 2Ps 139eaſelie appeare vvhy. That is to ſay / for as muche as he knew the harte off man / and ſawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued: he needed not any time to trie / how they vvould behaue them ſelues in their miniſterie / nor any either Teſtimonies / or argumentes of former liffe / to helpe his perſuaſion off their fitnes thereunto. Therfore he knowing / both by the fulnes off the ſpirite off diſcretion / gyuen hym vvithowt meaſure / and by his diuine knowledge / how faithfullie they vvould employe themſelues in that myniſtrye: mighte vvell open the dore vntounto thoſe / againſte vvhom the churche owghte to kepe yt ſhutte.

If any man vvoulde here excepte againſte this anſwer / vvith the example of Iudas / vvhichwhich did ſo traiterously behaue hym ſelfe in his office: yt ys not vvorthe the anſwer. For vvho knoweth not / that that was doone / that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled: and that for that cawſe our Sauiour Chriſte / forſeinge the treaſon Ioh. 13. Act. 1.John 13Acts 1to come / did notwithſtandinge gyue him a place in that myniſterie? So that yf they vvoulde conclude any thinge off that example: they muſte conclude / that the churche maie chuſe one / which yt thincketh vvill deceyue the truſte / that ys laide vppon him. I coulde here diſpute / vvhether althowghe he repented trewlie / yet forſomuche as he is ſubiecte to another ſuche fall / as well as any other: yt vvere boothe leſſe daunger for hym / and les hurte for the churche / to receiue ſuche an ouerthrowe vnderunder an other capitayne neuer foiled / then vnderunder him / vnderunder whō yt hathe already bene put to flighte. But forſomuche as yt is not ſo cleare / and requireth a longer diſcourſe: I am contente to let that paſſe.

Yet that maye not be omitted / that as in the refuſall off a miniſter / which hathe defyled hym ſelfe withe Idolatrie / prouiſion is made for the ſafety / and ſecuritie of the churche: ſo an eye ys had to a more plentifull fruicte / which maie redounde vntounto it / by hym that is placed in the miniſtrie. And foraſmuche as no ſmale portion off that / ſhoulde be by greate likelihoode turned a waie / by reſtoring ſuche one / as hathe fallen ſo grieuously: amongeſt other reaſons that alſo hathe force / to hinder his reſtirucion. For vvhen S. Paule requireth aucthoritie in a deacon / purchaſed by continuall p. CLXXV1. Tim. 3.1 Tim 3tenor / and as yt weere by an euen thread / of a holye / and innocente liffe / that he might vvithe greater libertie / and boldnes execute his office: he ſufficiently declarethe / that ſuche a fall / eſpecially in the biſhoppe / and myniſter / taken in the race off his miniſterie / maketh a deepe wounde into that authoritie / and freedome off rebukinge others / which is neceſſary for hym / for furtherance off hy myniſtry / to retaine. And as yt taketh awaie from his freedome in reprehending: ſo that which he reprehendethe / hathe ſo muche leſſe aucthoritye withe the hearer: as yt is not onlye not confyrmed / but contraried by his example. And yf Tymothe / beinge endewed with ſuche rare gyftes off knowledge / and holynes 1. Tim. 4. 12.1 Tim 4:12off lyffe / had muche a doo to mainteine his authoritie in the churche / againſte the contempte of his yowthe / which was no faulte: he had neede hauehave very extraordinarie gyftes / which can deliuer hys myniſterie from contempte / ten folde more occaſioned by ſuche a fall / then by wante / of a fewe years. Seinge therfore the vvounde beinge healed by repentance / the ſkarr dothe yet remaine in the eyes of the churche / to the blemiſhinge of his Myniſtrie: yt ys good he be taken downe / and ſet in ſome les lighteſome place / off the churche off God.

There was yet a thirde reaſon / vvhiche no doubte moued the churches to keepe this order: that this barre off hym from the myniſtrie / vvhiche had ſo fallen / mighte ſerue for example vntounto other myniſters / to take heede. For they conſydered well / that as common wealthes / ſo the churches of God / are preſerued by rewarde / and puniſhement: and that as in the rewarde off ſome / other are prouoked to make after thoſe thinges / vvhichwhich are by that rewarde crowned: ſo by the puniſhement off ſome / other are terrified from doinge that / for whiche they ſee them diſhonored. Therfore they thowghte yt vnmete / that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a myniſter / ſhoulde no other wiſe be diſciplined / then a pryuate perſon: but rather as his faulte exceded / ſo his correction ſhoulde encreaſe. Whiche thinge beinge ſo muche commended / in common wealthes well gouerned: I ſee no cauſe / why yt ſhoulde not be as conueniente in the churche off God: ſo farre / and in ſuche kinde off corrections / as are in the churches power. And therfore yt appeareth / that the commaundemente which is gyuen in Ezethiell p. CLXXVI/ and in the booke off the kinges / for the ſeparatinge off the Leuytes from their Miniſterie / which had fallen to Idolatrye: was not a lawe for a tyme / but drawne from the ſpringe off that equytie / which can not be changed.

And ſo farr is yt / that the goſpell hath made this lawe voide: that yt hathe alſo confyrmed yt. for yf the miniſterie off the lawe / were ſo gloriouſe / that yt vvoulde not be handled off thoſe / which had once fallen from yt by Idolatrie / althowghe they did repente: howe muche more / owghte the mynyſtrie off the goſpell 2. Cor. 3.2 Cor 3(which ſo ſurmounteth the myniſterie off the lawe / as the goſpell dothe the lawe) be vntowched off ſuche / as forſaking yt / hauehave defyled them ſelues with that ſynne? And if for a leſſe faulte / they were kepte from a lower place in the church: for a greater faulte / ſhoulde not they muche more be kepte from a higher dignitie? for wheras nowe the ſeconde tyme he faithe / that vnderunder the lawe, there were certeine corporall pollutions, which made a man vncleane for a tyme: yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture / either in not knowing / in what ſhorte tyme thoſe polutions mighte be purged: or els aſſigning anie cawſe off the Leuytes putting forthe off their miniſtrie for euer / for the polutions which were in ſo fewe dayes clenſed.

Yowr allegatiōn owte off maiſter Caluin towching the widowes / is nothing for yow / nothing to the cauſe. For what if he ſaye / that the Apoſtell requireth that they ſhoulde be benyficiall: doothe yt therfore followe / that reſpecte ſhoulde not be had into their vvhole life. Yt may be eaſely vnſterſtāded / that the apoſtel hauing drawne the office off a wydowe / throwghe diuers ſortes of good workes / becawſe yt had bene to longe / to recyte all: ſhutteth vp vvith that clauſe / as yf he ſhoulde ſaie / that I ſtande not in reherſall off all / I will hauehave her ſuche / as hathe exerciſed her ſelfe in eueryevery good worke.

But I deſire the reader to obſerue the vnfaithfullnes / and open corruption that he vſeth / in cyting off maiſter Calu. For his iudgement being not called for / but anſwere required to the wordes of S. Paule / he hath taken that which ſerueth not to the purpoſe / and hathe lefte owte that in the expoſition of the ſame verſe / which is directly againſte that he alledgeth maiſter Caluin for. p. CLXXVIIWhoſe wordes are theſe / There is no dovvbte, b…t there vvere vvorſhipfull, and very reuerent colledges, or companies off vvidovves: vppon 1▪ Tim. 5.1 Tim 5therfore Paule vvill hauehave none choſen thether, but ſuch as be commended by a notable teſtimonie, off their vvhole former lyfe.

And wheras he aſketh / howe coulde that be, when they had but one parte off theire lyfe knowen Chriſte: not to ſpeake off the Iewiſhe widowes / which might hauehave led their whole life in good / and holy worckes in deede: he muſte learne / that S. Paule dothe not there ſpeake onelyonly off good workes / which are the fruictes of faithe: but callethe thoſe good workes / whiche are cyuilly / and in owtewarde ſhewe / and eſtimacion off men good. So that he requireth / that thoſe onelyonly be choſen emongeſt the weomen / which were neuer detected off any notable cryme: but hauehave allwaies lyued in an honeſte / cyuill behauiour amongeſt their neighboures. And thus S. Luke calleth thoſe vveomen religious, and honeſte, 13. Act. 50which were moued to perſequte S. Paul. There was nether trewe Religion / nor honeſtie in them / but ſo he calleth them / becauſe they were ſo eſtemed. S. Paul alſo ſaithe off him ſelffe / when he was the enemy off Chriſte / that he was before his conuerſion / as Phil. 3. 6.Phil 3:6tovvching the iuſtice of the lavve, vnblamable: Which muſte needes be vnderſtanded / off a cyuill / and owtward kinde off iuſtice / and not off any good workes / which were trewe fruictes off the ſpirite off God. Hereoff he requireth / that he that is to be choſen 1. Tim. 3. 7.1 Tim 3:7biſhope / ſhoulde hauehave the Teſtymonie off ſtraungers from the churche: that is to ſaye / which liued with owt breache off that cyuill honeſtie / which the very heathen hauehave in recommendation. Which Teſtimonye he could neuer hauehave yf he were knowen / to be either a drunckard / or an adulterer / &c. the knowledge off which crymes / God hathe written / ſo deeply in the harte off man / that no ignorance off God / or ſauagenes off liffe / coulde euer raſe yt owte. So yow ſee S. Paule / mighte require a Teſtimonie of good behauior off the whole liffe of thoſe / which had led put a parte of yt in Chriſtianitie.

Who goeth abowte to excuſe S. Peters denyall? doothe he that ſaithe yt is a greate and a haynous cryme, excuſe it: I ſaide / I thowghte p. CLXXVIIIDiuiſ. 3. pag. 146.I ſhoulde trouble yovv, if I put yovv to proue his faulte to be as greate as his that ſlydeth frō the goſpel, to Idolatrie, and therein abyde the ſome years: And I perceiue I hauehave troubled yow / for yow can not anſwer vntounto that poore reaſon / whiche I in paſſing interlaced. To helpe to mainteine your vntrwth / yow hauehave here ſet S. Peters faulte of the laſte / ſayinge / he did yt wittingly, and willingly. For yt beinge doone off infyrmitie / and to ſaue his life / althowghe yt is was not doone withowte his will: yet I reporte me to the vſe off our ſpeache / whether this wittinge, and willing doing be not ſpoken of thoſe onelyonly / whiche doo yt withowte any manner off compulſion / or drifte off feare.

But therein yow doo hym open iniurie / when yow ſaye / that his faulte was as greauous as any binde of idolatrie. For I beſeche yow is not the denyall off the goſpell / as greate a faulte / as the deniall of Chriſte? ſo farre therfore the faultes are equall. In denyinge twiſe / he is matched withe a greate number off Idolaters / whiche at one clapp hauehave renounced hym withe mouthe / and ſubſcribed againſte hym with their hande, and where he forſware hym once / they hauehave forſworne hym oft / according to the number off dioceſes / where they hauehave had their lyuinges / and diuerſytie off tymes wherin ſuche thinges hauehave bene required. That warning S. Peter had a lytle before / by the mouthe off our Sauiour Chriſte, they had by the voice off the miniſter / whiche hathe the authoritie off Chriſte. That he did almoſte in the preſence off his maſter, yt ſemeth by that whiche hathe folowed in ſome / they woulde hauehave done / yf he had ſtoode / and loked on.

But let that encreaſe his faulte / yet this circumſtance makethe yt not ſo greate / that where Peter denied Chriſte caſt downe / or in time off his humility: they hauehave denied hym riſen from the deade / aſcended vpp into heauen / fytting on the righte hand… off God the father in glorie. I leaue to be conſydered / whether hetherto the faulte off Sainte Peter / be not onelyonly matched / but alſo ouerweighed. Now for a ſurcreaſe / and ouerrunninge meaſure / S. Peter did yt to ſaue his ſkin / they to ſaue their honor: He for his liffe / they for their lyuinge. I ſpeake fauorablie / for otherwiſe I mighte ſaye of ſome / that they did it not onelyonly to ſaue that p. CLXXIXwhiche they had / but to get more vntounto yt. S. Peter did it pe… ly / and in a corner: they in ſet / and open iudgement. He onelyonly denied that he knew hym / or that he was one off his diſciples / but ſpake no euill off him / nor of his doctrine: they affirmed that they knewe the goſpel to be nawghte / and ſo ſpake euill bothe of Chriſt and yt. He did yt ſodēly / and at a puſhe: they deliberatly / and withe tyme giuen to conſulte: he althowghe he forſoke his maſter Chriſte / yet he neuer ſerued the ſcribes / and Phariſeis / vvhiche were the enemies off Chriſte: they did not onelyonly forſake Chriſte / but ſerued in the courtes off his ſworne enemie Antechriſte.

Now if their faultes were in the very kinde / ſo manye waies greater then his: it muſte needes followe / that the longer they ſpunne the thread off their ſinne / then he did off his: ſo muche more growethe vntounto theirs / then vntounto his: and therfore what difference betwene howres / and yeares: ſo muche betwene theirs / and his. I leue to ſpeake how S. Peter / was wakened at the voice of a …ocke / whiche they were not at manie voices off the ſonne of god: he was checked at a looke off our Sauiour Chriſte: they not at his frowne / and chidinge voice.

I hauehave ſpoken this / neither to excuſe Saint Peter / whom I knowe to hauehave ſinned heinouſlie / nor to throwe downe the ſeate off merciemercy agayinſte thoſe / which hauehave thus ſinned / whiche ſtandeth ſure vppon the braſen pillers off the promiſſes off God / to all which doo repente: but to this ende / that I mighte ſhewe / howe vntrewe it is / that is here ſo auouched off the Anſ. that S. Peters faulte was more greuous, then any kinde off idolatrie. and that ſuche as hauehave ſo ſinned / vnderſtanding their ſinne to be of a longer laſte / thē S. Peters / mighte not deceiue them ſelues in the meaſure.

Yt makethe nothing to the purpoſe that is heere alledged / of the vnchaungablenes of the mercye of god: or that owte off S. Paule to Timothie. As if the queſtion were / whether they vvhiche had fallen from the miniſterye of the goſpell to Idolatrie / ſhoulde be receiued to merciemercy: or that the merciemercy off God were denied vntounto him / to whom the miniſtrie is denied: or as if mercy / and correction coulde not ſtande to gether: or as if the Leuites receiued not merciemercy / bothe of God / and off the churche / whiche receiued not their miniſterie: or as thowghe Ciprian / and other fathers / whiche p. CLXXXſhutte the doore of the miniſterie againſte ſuche / were not enemies vntounto thoſe that denied repentance vntounto the fallen / when Ciprian callethe Nonatus (author off that error) the murtherer off repentaunce. I meruaile therfore what he meaneth / thus to goo abowte to abuſe his reader / in ſeeminge to ſaie ſomething / when he ſaith nothing.

In the ende he ſaithe / that theſe examples off our Sauiour Chriſte, are not to be followed in all poinctes. In what poinctes to be followed? and in what to be avoided? this was neceſſary to hauehave bene ſhewed. And hauehave yow forgotten / what yow aſked off mee: how I knewe certeine thinges to be followed, and other not? and howe either all muſte pag. 133.be followed, or none? and what reuelation I had receiued to knowe what thinges in the election off Matthias perteined to ours, and what not? howe pernicious a voice it is / / bothe to the churche / and common vvealthe / that no man what cryme ſoeuer he hathe committed, is to be ſecluded from anye lawfull vocation yff he repent: howe licentious / howe nere approching to Anabaptiſme / if I had ſaide nothing at all / yet hathe it plentifull confutation / bothe off reaſon / and off all good policed churches / or common wealthes that euer were. I hauehave ſhewed generall commaundementes to the contrarie: therfore vnles yow can ſhewe them repealed / by a contrarie acte: they are ſtill in force. For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paule / here tediously repeated: I hauehave anſwerrd before at lardge.

Towching the wyping a waie off Ambroſe example, I did it firſte in place: which yowr gloſſe denieth. For prouing that no newe conuerte / Diu. 4. p. 14….ſhould be choſen to the miniſterie / allthowgh our Sauiour Chriſte did chuſe S. Paule / Ambroſe example ſtoode in the waie: and therfore I gaue him in deede the wipe / but it was with the ſworde off God. His choiſe was alſo / againſte the allowed practiſe off the churche / if yow knowe whoſe voice this is: yeſter daie cathechiſed, to daie a biſhop. Where he merueilethe / that …. ad Oc…n.ſo plaine a precepte off S. Paule is not kepte / and callethe them ſodaine, and momentany minſters, whiche are ſo made. And albeit that ſome differred their baptiſme, longe after their conuerſion, and in deede to the time off deathe: yet yow doo not ſhewe / that Ambroſe was in that …ber. If he were / yow faſten therby greater ignorance p. CLXXXIvppon him / then I hauehave doone: who (yow ſaie) ſpeake contemptuously off hym. Beſydes it is one thing not to be baptized, and another thinge to be catechumenus. For thoſe whiche were not baptized / beinge ſufficiently inſtructed / were admitted to the ſupper off the lorde: but in that yt is ſaide / Ambroſe vvas Cathecumenus, Socrat. 4. lib. 30.is declared / that he was not yet ſufficiently inſtructed / in the principles of religion. Whatſoeuer yt is / I ſaie yt coulde not be withowte great diſorder / that a man ſhoulde be choſen gouernour off the cytie / whiche had neuer taſted off the water theroff. I knowe Ambroſe was a notable man / and learned in humaine knowledge: yet I mighte withowte either greate diſgrace / or any contempte / ſaie that whiche I ſaide. And yf this were the place for it: I coulde eaſely ſhewe vppon howe good grownde I ſaide / that it had bene ſafer for the churche, he had bene better inſtructed in the ſcriptures, before he occupied the place off Doctor. Whereunto I coulde vſe his owne teſtimonie / whiche ſaithe / 1. lib. offi.that he was conſtrained to teache / that whiche he himſelffe had not learned.

Albeit he is conſtrained / to agree to that whiche is affirmed: Diui. 5. p: 147. Cyp. 1. li. Epiſt. 7.yet for the great deſire he hathe / to ſtrike at me / he woulde wreſte this epiſtle owte of my handes / then the whiche there can be nothinge more plaine. For Cyprian / reaſonethe againſte Fortunatius chalenge off his biſhoppricke / after that he had fallen to Idolatrie: by the generall rule / that none owghte to be admitted vntounto the miniſtrie / whiche had ſo fallen. And therfore almoſte in the beginninge off the Epiſtle / he chargeth him that he dare chalenge vntounto him the miniſterie, vvhiche he hathe betraied: as thovvgh yt vvere lavvfull after hauing bene at the alter off the deuil, to come vntounto the alter of god. And after he had ſhewed the horrible puniſhementes / that the lorde God willed they ſhould be puniſhed with / that faulted that waies: he addeth / Seing therfore the lorde threateneth ſuche tormentes, and puniſhementes in the daie off his vvrathe, to ſuche as obey the diuel, and ſacrifice to idoles: hovve can he thinke, that he maie doo the office off the miniſter off God, vvhiche hathe obeied, and ſerued the priep. CLXXXIIſtes off the diuel? or hovve dothe he thinke, that his hande can be translated to the ſacrifice, and praier off the lorde: vvhiche vvas captiue to ſacriledge, and to ſuche a crime? Off thes wordes and diuers other in that epiſtle / yt is euidēte / that he dothe not therfore ſeclude Fortunat. onelyonly / becawſe he did not repente: but becawſe yt was not lawfull / for thoſe that had ſacrificed / &c. to be reſtored vntounto their myniſterie. And therfore he purge the hym ſelfe / and his fellowes in an other place / off that he was ſuppoſed to 4. l. 2. ep.hauehave receiued Trophimus to the miniſtrie / and otherwiſe then a laye man: althoughe yt be there declared / that Trophimus did ſubmitte him ſelfe in all humilitie / vntounto the churche.

Wherfore hathe he browghte in here / that there was certaine tyme off repentance appointed in Cyprians time, &c. doothe anye bodie denie yt? or maketh yt any thinge to his purpoſe? That whiche he he ſhoulde hauehave proued / he to wchethe not. For againſte that he ſaide / Off the examples off the primatiue churche, in reſtoringe off thoſe vntounto their myniſterie, whiche had fallen vntounto Idolatrie: I hauehave ſhewed the vſe off the moſte ancienteſt tymes / and he bringeth nothinge at all / but onelyonly affirmeth thoſe thinges / which no man deniethe / and make nothing to the purpoſe.

The councell off Carthage (whiche ordeined that none mighte be receiued againe to the miniſterie / which had defyled him ſelfe with Idolatrie) is here reiected: the reaſon whereoff is alſo added / for that the ſame Concell decreed, rebaptizing off thoſe whiche were baptized by Heretikes: The Anſ. maye throwe awaye the authoritie off a councell / becauſe of an error in yt / withowte either ſcripture / Doctor / or councell: when I doo yt / not withowte either all thes authorities / or at the leſte / off the ſcripture: yt is cried owte againſte / as an vnlearned ſhifte, and I can not tell what. But I am contented yow ſhall throwe a waie the councell off Carthage / which eſtabliſhed that error: yet yow ſhall not throwe awaie that / wherin it was agreed / againſte reſtoring off miniſters / fallen into Idolatrie. How ſo? Becauſe they were decreed in ſeuerall councels. For profe theroff / I alledge the wordes off Cyprian. And when there be other boothe many / and greuous faultes / where withe 1. li. E. 4.Baſilides / and Marſhal are inwrapped: ſuch doo in vaine goo abowte p. CLXXXIII/ to occupie the place off a biſhoppe. Seing yt is manifeſte / that ſuche men may not gouerne the churche off Chriſte / nor offer vp ſacrifices vntounto God. Eſpecially when off late / boothe withe vsus / and with all the biſhoppes in the worlde / euen Cornelius alſo / our fellow in miniſterie peacable / and iuſte / and whom the lorde voucheſafed the honor off a Martyr / decreed / that ſuche men mighte be admitted to repentance / but ſhoulde notwithſtanding be kepte frō the honor of the clergy / or miniſtrie. Of this place I conclude / that forſomuche as the Councell of Carthage / was prouinciall / as that whiche was gathered off the biſhoppes off Africke / Mauritania / and Numidia / and this generall / as that whiche was aſſembled of all the biſhops of the worlde: that the councell wherin this was determined / is not the ſame whiche determined rebaptization. Againe at this councell Cornelius was / and gaue his conſente: at the other he was not / neither woulde euer giuegive his cōſente. And ſo alſo is anſwered / that whiche yow cite owte of the ſeconde booke off Cyprian / and firſte epiſtle / that for ſo muche as / the councell that there is ſpoken off / was in Stephanus time / the biſhoppe off Rome: it can be by no means vnderſtanded off this councel / that decreed againſte the reſtitution of the miniſters whiche had fallen / vvhiche vvas holden before his time. Therfore the councell there ſpoken of / was but a conference of biſhops / or minſters whiche were nere vntounto that place / where Cyprian remained. For if it had bene anye ſolēne councell / Cypr. woulde not firſte hauehave holden that / and then after they had decreed off matters in conſultation (as yt appeareth in that epiſtle they had) conferred withe him by letters. And if he ſhoulde: yet yt dothe manifeſtly appeare / by that whiche I hauehave alledged / that this was decreed lōge before. I will therfore waite / what aduiſe yow will take / to anſwer to this Councell: which was bothe catholike / and generall / and more aunciente then that off Nice: puttinge yow alſo in remembrāce / what a greate extoller off councels yow be / when they make any thinge for yow.

None of the places vvhiche they alledged / declare anyſuche meaninge: and the place quoted owte off Eze. manifeſtly declareth / that they mēte of thoſe vvhiche had fallen from the trewthe. Beſides Diu. 6. p. 148.that al men maie ſee / that yow browght thes exāples of M. p. CLXXXIIIILuth. &c. to proue that miniſters vvhichwhich had fallen into Idolatrie / might be reſtored vntounto the miniſterie. And where they ſpeake off kinge Henries preiſtes / kinge Edwardes / &c. Yt is apparente / that they mente not to ſeclude them / for that they were kinge Henries preiſtes: but becauſe they were kinge Henries / and Queene Maries preiſtes bothe / ſeing they alſo ſhutte forthe / kinge Edwardes preiſtes / which by no means they can be ſuſpected to hauehave doone / vnles they had mente off thoſe / which beinge miniſters then / were preiſtes alſo in Queene Maries tymes. Yf They had ſaide thus ſimplie / all indifferent iudgemente muſte needes ſo hauehave expounded them: but vvhen they expounde them ſelues ſo plainly / in theſe wordes / men for all ſeaſons: I mighte well ſaie / as I hauehave ſaide / vvhat hathe ſo blyn̄ded your eyes, &c.

For his iudgemente off certeine preachers nowe, maſſmongers in Queen Maries times, comparable with any in the lande: I leue to ſpeake of it. For ſeinge he hathe a ſeuerall diuinitie from others / he muſte be ſuffred alſo to frame his iudgemente therafter. The ſclanderous vntrwthes / that are here vttered / I will not defile my penne withe. Off the places off Deuter. and Ezechiel I hauehave ſpoken. Howe the iudiciall lawe / is in the powre off the magiſtrate / is declared / and here was no place to ſpeake off it. Foraſmuche as the queſtion is here / off the diſcipline off the churche / and not off ciuill puniſhmentes: and whether the churche owghte to admit a miniſter / that hathe fallen vntounto Idolatrie. The nexte ſection / I leue to the iudgemente off the reader. The nexte vntounto that / is anſwered before in the firſt tract. and 6. chap.

Yt was a greate parte off Alexanders commendation / that Diuiſ. 9. pa. 151. foreign. Plutar. in his liffe.he was fearce in fight / and gētle in victorie. The D. is cleane cōtrary. For a lam is not ſo meek / and ſo tame as he is in his diſputation / and reaſoning: but in his triumphes / althowghe falſe / and imagined / there is nothing more fearce. To beare oute all this ſtorme off wordes / prophane Philoſopher, and druncken poete, &c. There is not ſo muche as one Philoſopher / prophane / or diuine / one Poete / ſober / or druncken / to improue that the gentils, did neuer take oxen, ſerpentes, fire, vvater, &c, to be god: or, that they toke the Images before vvhiche they fell, for vvood, ſtone, &c. Yff I p. CLXXXVſhoulde alledge all the places owte off them / which mighte be browghte to the confirmacion off that / whiche I ſet downe: yt were muche more eaſier to fynde a begynninge / then an ende. Howbeit / becauſe off the ſhamefull / and foreheadles deali… ge off the D. off an infinite number / I will alledge one / or two: Wherby it maie appeare / what opinion was off theſe thinges / amongeſte the gentils.

And to beginne withe Philoſophers / it can not be vnknowen to thoſe vvhiche are learned / that amongeſte others / Plato / and his ſecte / approched neereſte / to the trew knowledge off god. Epiſt. ad Herm. In Epin. foreign. Viues ex Numen. Philoſo. foreign. De leg & rep louis omnia plenaAnd albeit he cōfeſſethe in diuers places one God / by whome the vvorld vvas ruled / yea and makethe mention / off the father / and off the ſonne / vvhiche he calleth the moſte deuine worde / and hathe many other thinges / conſonante vntounto that whiche Moſes vvritethe / in ſuche ſorte / that he was called off ſome / Moſes ſpeakinge in the moſte pureſte manner off the Grecians: Albeit I ſaie / this Philoſopher did well knowe / that there vvas but one God whiche made heauen / and earthe: yet he taught / that diuers ſpirites / and men alſo whiche had bene famous vppon earthe / ſhoulde be worſhipped.

For the Poetes / the ſaying of Virgill / all are full off Iupiter: maie declare / that the honour / and ſeruice which the Gentills did to the Images / beſtes / and other creaturs whiche they worſhipped / vvas for an opinion that they had / off the preſence off Iupiter in …hoſe thinges / and not for the thinges them ſelues. and there wanted not diuers amongeſte them / whiche ſaide / there was but one God / vvhiche they called Iupiter / and that Appollo / Venus / Diana / &c. Were but vertues / or partes of Iupiter / ſo that in thoſe they worſhipped Iupiter. And althowghe the Egyptians / vvere comparable in groſſnes off Idolatrie / withe any nation: Yet Iſocrates thus writeth off their manner off vvorſhipp. He appoincted off all ſortes off diuine vvorſhip, o… exerciſe vntounto In Bouſiris.them, and made a lavve for the vvorſhippinge off beaſtes, deſpiſed amongeſte vsus: not that he was ignorante off their powre / but becauſe he vvoulde accuſtome the people / to the obedience off thoſe thinges vvhiche vvere commanded by their princes: p. CLXXXVIand vvithall / meaninge thereby to take a profe / how they vvere affected towardes the inuiſible thinge / by thinges viſible. Here yow heare the Philoſophers / the Poctes / the Orators (vvhiche vvere the Prophetes off the gentils): yet none aſcribethe vntounto thē ſuche a dotage / as to thincke a peece off vvood / &c. to be God.

And iff this knowledge vvere in the groſſeſte Idolaters: howe can ſuche ignorance hauehave been in the Iſraelites / as he imaginethe? But I had forgotten the boye off the grammer ſcoole, whom he appointethe for my ſcoolemaiſter in this matter: wheras if euer he toke heede vntounto the firſte verſe off Cato / he muſte needes giuegive Si Deus eſt animus, &c.vvitneſſe of our ſide / that the gentils toke God for a ſpirite / and not for a peece off wood / &c.

And this that is here ſpoken / off ſondrie off the Idolatrous Gentils / S. Paule pronouncethe off them all / vvhere he goinge abowte to proue / that all the nations vvere ſhut vnderunder condemnation: Rom. 1.Rom 1ſaithe / that they knevve God by his creatures, but did not glorifie him as God. This opininion the Gentile had of one God / Iuſtine martyr prouethe / by that vvhenſoeuer they entred into any earneſte conſyderation off God / they vvere vvonte to name De Monarc.one God onelyonly. And that they imagined their Godds to be in heauen / beſides that yt is eaſie to gather off their geſtures / in holdinge vp their handes / ād caſtinge vp their eyes vntounto heauen / as ofte as they felte thē ſelfes in any daunger: may likewiſe appeare / where the Idolaters of Liſtra / and Derbe conceiuing off Barnabas / and Paule as off Goddes: to mainteine that error off theirs / are driuen to ſaie / that they were cum dovvne from heauen: declaringe therby / Act. 14.Acts 14that the receiued opinion off them was: that the ordinarie Goddes / were in heauē. For yt is not to be dowted / but they had the images of Iupiter / and Mercurie whiche they worſhipped in that place: and yet they did not take them for their Goddes / but Imagined that the Goddes wherof thoſe vvere the Images / were in heauen.

Nowe this that eueryevery dronken poete, and boy, &c. can tell to be otherwiſe, let vsus ſee whether graue / learned / ſober / ād anciēte diuines / doo not plainely confirme. Auguſtine (vvhichwhich is here alledged / to proue that the gentils did take the verie images them ſelues to be VponUpon the 215. Pſal. … part.their goddes) ſhewethe that the verie vulgare / and groſſeſt ſort of p. CLXXXVIIIdolaters / coulde anſwere vvhen they vvere rebuked of their Idolatry / and heatheniſhe vvorſhip: that they vvorſhipped not the viſible image, but that vvhichwhich dvvelt inuiſibly in it. and that they off the finer ſort anſwered / that they neither vvorſhipped the image, nor any ſpirite in the image, but by that bodelie image did beholde the ſigne off that thinge, vvhichwhich they ovvght to vvorſhip. M. Caluin (anſweringe vntounto the Papiſtes obiection / 1. l. Inſ. 11. c. ſ. 9.that their images are not takē for goddes) ſaith thus. Nether vvere the Ievves (ſaith he) ſo vnvviſe, that they did not remember that it vvas God, by vvhoſe hande they vvere brovvght ovvte off Aegypte, before theye made the calfe: yea vntounto Aaron ſainge, that thoſe vvere their goddes vvhichwhich brovvghte them ovvte of Aegypte, they did vvithovvte ſtaggeringe conſente, gyuinge therby to vnderſtande aſſuredly, that they vvoulde kepe ſtill the ſame God for their deliuerer, ſo that they mighte ſee him goo before them in the calfe. Nether is it to be thovvghte that the Gentils vvere ſo blockiſhe, that they did not vnderſtande that God vvas ſome other thinge, then vvood, or ſtone. For they changed their images oftētimes, and yet kept the ſame goddes ſtill in there mynde: and their vvere many Images ſet vpp to one God, neither did they therfore accordīg to that multitude, imagine many Goddes. Beſydes that daily they conſecrated nevve Images. and yet they thovvghte not therfore that they made nevve Goddes. And towardes the ende off that ſectiō he vvritethe thus: Notvvithſtandinge boothe the Ievves vvere Perſvvaded, that vnderunder ſuche Images they vvorſhipped the eternall god, the one, trevve lorde off heauen and earthe: and the Gentils alſo that by them they vvorſhipped their goddes althovvghe falſe, yet vvhiche they imagined to hauehave their abode in heauen. And in the beginninge off the tenth ſection: Thoſe vvhiche denie, that this vvas doone in tymes paſte, and is doon in our age, lye impudentlie. And towardes the latter ende off that ſection / vntounto the Papiſtes obiecting that they doo not call the images their godds / p. CLXXXVIIIhe anſwerethe: Neither did either the Ievves, or Gentils ſo in times paſte, and yet the Prophetes in eueryevery place did not ceaſe to caſte in theyr teathe fornicatiō vvith vvood, and ſtone: onelyonly for the things, vvhiche are dayly doone of thoſe, vvhichwhich vvil be counted Chriſtians, that is to ſaie, for that they vvorſhipped God carnally in vvood, and ſtone. Nowe take awaie that which yow hauehave partly in your gloſe / and partly in your texte / moſte vntrewly ſurmiſed: and ſhew me one worde in all this ſection / vvhiche yow hauehave made ſuch horrible owtecries off / that Maiſter Caluin doothe not ſpeake more fullie / then I.

For where in your gloſſe / vponupon my wordes / And vvho knovveth not that they thovvghte that by them, and in them, they vvorſhipped the God vvhiche made heauen, and earthe, yow note in the mergente a groſſe error, making me to affirme that all the Gentills beleued, that God made heauen, and earthe: yow change not your ſkin / ſtil yow ſeeke aduātage by falſhoode. For tell me are thes all one / they thovvghte they vvorſhipped God, vvhiche made heauen, and earthe, and they / they thowghte that God made heauen and earthe? When it is ſaide / that the Papiſtes thinke they ſwallowe Chriſte / whiche onelie ſittethe at the righte hande off God: Fallac: compoſ:doth one affirme / that the Papiſtes thinke / that Chriſte ſittethe onelie at the righte hande off God? For when there are two propoſitions there: Wheroff the one is / that the Gentills thowght they worſhipped God / the other / that that God made heauen / and earthe: the Anſw. woulde make them as one. But vvhat a veration off ſpirite is it / to hauehave to doo withe one / which either knoweth not vvhat the valewe off a propoſition is: or els knovvinge / doothe ſo ſhamfully vvreſt yt?

Yet the other vvhichwhich he aſcribethe vntounto me in his texte / is yet farther from honeſt dealinge. For he aſkethe me / whether iupiter, Apollo &c. were goddes whiche created heauen, and earthe: as if I had giuen any occaſion of that queſtion. He addethe / and aſketh / whether they were thowght to hauehave made heauen, and earthe? To vvhom I hauehave anſwered before / that the wordes importe no ſuche thinge: neither had I either in that propoſition / or in any before / made mention p. CLXXXIXoff Iupiter / or Appollo / &c. And if I ſhoulde anſwere / that Iupiter was thowghte off ſome / abuſed by fables of the Poetes / to hauehave made heauen / and earthe: What woulde folowe therof? I ſaie therfore againe / that take awaye your vntrew additions: and there is nothinge ſet downe off me / which Maiſter Caluin dothe not preciſely affirme. And that which I hauehave ſet downe owte off Expoſ. 1. commaund. tit. Againſt. the vvorſhipp off dead ſainctes.Maiſter Caluin / I coulde recite as fully / and as plainly owte off Maiſter Muſculus / which I omite.

For your places which yow hauehave heaped together here / I knowe them wel / and had thē before me when I wrote. Yow gyue me them in groſſe / withowte applyinge: yow either coulde frame no argumente of them / or feared the anſwer. I can not examin all thoſe chapit. which yow giuegive me / oneles I woulde write a whole booke off that matter onelie. Yow take vp the Adm. becawſe they applie not their ſcripturs / and frame not their argumētes: yet they let not yow wander in the vvhole chapiter / but gaue one verſe to ſpeake vntounto. I muſte alſo admoniſhe yow to beare more reuerence vntounto the ſcripture, then to confounde yt vvith Baruche, and eſpecially vvith the ſtorie off Bell, and the Dracon: if yow vvill not be admoniſhed / I vvill deſyre the reader to take heede off ſuche confuſion: there being as much differēce betwene the one and the other / as betwene heauen and earthe / God and man.

Why? is this the profe yow promiſe in your gloſe / wherby yow ſaide / yt ſhoulde appeare to be vntrewe that I alledged? Thoſe greate vvordes made me hope after ſome ſtronge reaſons / yff we will folowe hym here / he vvill leade vsus the ready waie to the popiſhe tranſubſtantiation. For he ſtickethe in the very vvorde / and vvill admit no ſacramental ſpeache / and therfore vvhere the arke is called foreign.the lorde off hoſtes, the kinge off glorie: in his diuinitie / yt muſte needes be taken ſo in deede / that the arke made off vvoode is Pſal. 24.Ps 24very God. For in the wordes off the texte it is expreſsly ſignified. And euen as that is / ſo is this a ſacramentall ſpeache: wherby they hauing the goulden calfe for a token / ād ſigne of the preſence of god / Exod. 32.Exod 32called yt by the name off God. now hauing no reaſon but off the papiſtes onelyonly / to vvarante this opinion: off his accuſtomed lyberalitie / in giuing that vvhiche he can not holde / he admitteth for ſoothe that yt is metonimically ſpoken yet after that by force off the trewthe p. CXC/ yt is vvrithen from him: he reachethe owte his hande after yt / ſaying / that yt is but a coniecture. yt is a certeine trewthe M. W. and no coniecture: ſtandinge not vppon the iudgemente off men / whiche I coulde alledge of diuers lerned / that hauehave writtē of that place: but vponupon vnfailible reaſons / wheroff that is one which I hauehave alledged / off the vſuall phraſe off the ſcripture / in ſpeaking of ſignes. And iff it had beene lawfull for them / to hauehave likened the maieſtie off God vntounto a calfe / or to hauehave had ſuche a token off the preſence off God: it had not bene vnlawfull / to hauehave called yt Sacramentally / by the name off God.

Moreouer foraſmuche as the knowledge off God / is a habyte whiche god gyuethe by lytle and lytle / throwghe teachinge / yt is impoſſible / that the Iſraelites ſo well inſtructed / and hauing gyuen alſo good experience before / that they knewe the trewe God: ſhoulde ſo ſodenly / at one inſtante / ſo many / leeſe all that knowledge off God / and take a calfe to be that / whiche browghte them owte off the lande of Aegypte: but as yt cam by litell and litle / ſo it muſte of neceſſitie hauehave a tyme / wherby it mighte by litle / and litle be loſte. And hetherto is referred that which Maiſter Caluine alledgeth / off the conſente off the people to that / whiche Aaron ſaide off kepinge holy daie vntounto the lorde: wherby they declared that they helde that for good / whiche Aaron ſaide.

Further if the Iſraelites had taken the calfe for their God: Moſes in gyuing them yt to drinke after he had betē it to powder / ſhould hauehave driuen them to a greate ſynne / and hauehave killed their conſciences / in compellinge them to drincke that / whiche they were perſwaded to be a peece of the true God / which browghte them owte of Aegypte. Whiche thinge when no man of any knowledge can ſaie: yt is certeine that Moſes did thinke / that the Iſraelites did knowe that the calfe was not the true God. Beſide that albeit Aaron faulted greuouſly / yet it is great iniurie doone vntounto him / to thinck that euer he woulde hauehave either cawſed / or conſented / a calfe to be made: if he thowghte that the Iſraelites woulde hauehave taken that / for the true God. yea after they had vttered that voice / Thes are they Gods, &c: Yt is ſaide that Aaron ſeinge that / made an altar before the calfe: Whiche he woulde neuer hauehave doone / if he had vnderſtanded the Iſraelites as the D. doothe.

p. CXCII had not the texte before me / when I wrote / but I tooke the ſenſe which I was well aſſured off. Seinge they bothe conſented to Aaron ſaying / ye ſhall kepe holy day to the Lorde, Exod. 32. 6.Exod 32:6and did ſo. Therfore allthowghe it be ſubiecte to the reprehenſion off a cauiller: yet I altered nothinge off the meaninge off the place / in that I ſet downe / that the Iſraelites ſaide, they vvould kepe holy day to the Lord.

I put yow ouer to the learned writers, and now I hauehave toulde yow off twoo / which doo in plaine wordes / whet their ſtiles directly againſte yowr diſtinction. Yow miſlike off the diſtinction, but yow are driuē to vſe yt: yow excuſe not the papiſtes, but yow leſſen their cryme / and therfore yow may well be called their Patron. For yt is a precepte amongeſt the Rethoricians / that iff the clients fault be apparante: the aduocate ſhoulde confeſſe it / and then employe the ſtrenghte off his witte / to cawſe it ſeme as lytle as maie be. And where in the diſtinctiō of degrees off Idolatrie / yow ſaie / that the Iewes did oftentimes offende in the laſte, and the worſte, and the Papiſtes not yow in deede ſaie it / ād ſaie it againe / but yow bringe nothinge to proue yt once. I coulde replie / that the Papiſtes vſed more deteſtable Idolatrie / then euer did the Iewes. For ſhewe me by any good authoritie / or reaſon / that the Iewes did euer thinke / or teache / that a deade Image off wood / and ſtone ſhoulde be worſhipped with the honor off the holy trinitie: and this notwithſtandinge …. Coun. Nic.is tawghte off the Papiſtes. Or ſhewe me where euer the Iewes did worſhippe / ſo vile a thinge / as a peece off breade: whiche receiued into the ſtomacke / is after caſte into the priuie. And as yt can not be denied / but they take that breade for the verie God / whiche made heauen / and earthe: So I am perſwaded that yt can neuer be ſhewed / that the Iewes were euer ſo groſſe to beleue / that anie ſymple creature ſeen with their eies / was the liuinge God.

The Anſ. bindethe well in the endè / withe his therfore yf they repente, &c. Wherfore? becauſe their Idolatrie is not ſo greate as that off the Iewes? as if their merciemercy / whiche they receiue vppon repentance / depended vppon the ſmalnes / or greatnes off their Idolatrie: or as if the Iewes / which repented off their Idolatrie / receiued p. CXCIInot merciemercy likewiſe. Verily I can ſee no bande / to tiethis therfore. with that whiche wente before. yt is a weffe / not worthe the takinge vpp. For what needed this nowe thriſe at the leſte / that they are not to be reiected owte off the churche? as iff any denied that. but where yow add / nor owte off the miniſterie: if yow mean off ſuche / as hauehave fallen from the goſpell / and myniſterie eſpecially / to Idolatrie: I can not beare yow / it is to heauy a cōcluſiō for ſo weake premiſſes: for Maiſter D. is to muche abuſed / if he thincke that the ſame kaie / openeth the doore off the Miniſterie / and the churche doore.

Where he ſnatcheth at the exāple of Aaron / who after that he fell / was receiued into the preiſthood againe / which he did before in the example off S. Paule that I browghte forthe: he declareth what a hongrie cauſe he hathe / whiche is gladd to pull the meate oute off the fire / that yt fedethe on. But alas this helpethe not: for it is a ſingular example / and maie not be drawne into imitation. At which anſwer my thinke I ſee the D. buſkell / and prepare him ſelfe to crowe / ſaying / that ſo all maie be wiped whatſoeuer is browghte. I will not doo therfore as yow / to whom yt is enowghe to ſaie vvithowte proofe: but vvill ſhewe the reaſon / whiche onles yow reſte in / yowe ſhal hauehave the cōtrouerſie vvithe yowr ſelfe. yowr ſelf affirme that the lawe in Ezech. and in the booke of the kinges, towchinge the not admittinge of the Leuites to the miniſterie, is a iudiciall lawe of Moſes, and gyuē to the Iſraelites onelyonly: whiche if yt be trewe / yt being generall / muſte needes comprehend the faulte off Aaron. And therfore yt followeth / that the admittance off Aaron to his miniſterie againe / beinge directly contrarie to the lawe / was by an eſpeciall diſpenſation.

Moreouer / Aaron beinge appointed to the miniſterie immediatlie / and by the expreſſe mouthe off God: I ſee not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the ſame authoritie whiche put him in. Laſte off all / it is verie probable / that vvhere yt is Deut. 9. 20.Deut 9:20ſaide in an other place / that Moſes ſtood vp / and praied for Aaron: then Moſes receiued anſwere / what ſhoulde be doone withe Aaron / towchinge his continuance in the miniſterie. Where yowr gloſſe in the ende ſuppoſeth contrarietie, ſeinge yt ſettethe downe none. I hauehave not to anſwere. yt may be the A. lawghed vvhen he p. CXCIIIvvrote that / vvherby he requireth ſincere dealing in the ſcriptures. For if this be ſitting in his mouthe / vvhichwhich corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth: vvhy ſhould not alſo a light houſewiffe / talke of the chaſtitie off a graue matrone. The nexte diuiſ. belonging vntounto the 6. Tract. off vnpreaching miniſters / ſhall there God vvilling be anſwered.