A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 19 (1 of 3)

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 19 (1 of 3)

p. CXCIIIOff election off Miniſters / vn voices / or other conſente off the people

Chap. 4. pag. 155.

IF Chryſoſtome had had anie thinge to ſaie towching the election off Deacons: he ſhoulde hauehave ſpokē vvhen tyme was / and when that place was handled. Yet for anſwere / the reader maye vnderſtand / that Chryſoſt. in that place makethe compariſon / betwen the election in the firſte off the Actes / and this: and ſheweth howe the Apoſtels did otherwiſe there / then here. For there they choſe two / vvhiche they ſet vpp before the churche. So that vvhen Chryſoſt. ſaithe / the Apoſtels myght hauehave choſen the deacons: yt may be he meaneth they might hauehave choſen them / as they did the two / Mathias / and Barſabas: In whiche choiſe I hauehave ſhewed / the conſente off the people was required. Yff vpō Act, 1there were but this place / whiche the D. citeth / I woulde ſtande vponupon this anſwer: but conſidering that Chryſ. in another place / affirmeth that Peter might hauehave choſen him ſelfe (which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader) I will not denie but that Chryſoſt. might hauehave heere the meaning the D. ſuppoſeth. Wherto as I can by no meanes agree / vponupon the reaſons both before / and after alledged ſo the D. is not helped. For when Chryſo. commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduiſe off the churche, nothing off his ovvne autoritie, nothing vvith dominion: When he addeth alſo that the ſame was to auoide contention, vp. Act. 1. vp. Act. 6Acts 1Acts 6and that nether he nor the reſte off the Apoſtles ſhould be thovvght to chuſe off fauour: he declareth ſufficiently that there is no biſhop of that ether authoritie / or holines off life / vvhichwhich in making the election without conſente of the church / dooth not bothe p. CXCIIIIlaie him ſelfe / and his miniſtery open to ſuſpiciō of parcialitle: and giuegive occaſion off pernicious debates in the churche.

He ſhoulde alſo vnderſtande / that this proportion is vneuen / and that if yt were granted whiche he deſyrethe: yet he is not where he woulde be. For iff it were lawfull / for the Apoſtels indued with extraordinarie giftes off diſcretion off ſpirites / to chuſe: yt foloweth not therfore that one Biſhopp may doo ſo. And becauſe yt was lawfull for the 12. Apoſtels / to chuſe them withe whome they were dailie conuerſante: therfore it is lawfull for one biſhoppe to chuſe thoſe / whiche he neuer ſee / nor knewe before?

Before I goo any further / yt is to be obſerued / that althowghe 2. Diu. p. 156.the Anſ. holde owte in the defenſe off this cawſe / off election by the Biſhope / certeine wordes of learned mē / racked from their meaninge / and contrarie to the continual practiſe off the authors: yet the trwthe is / that as this aſſertion is the Papiſtes / and Papiſtes againſte the Proteſtantes: ſo all his principall bothe argumentes / and ſolutions hauehave bene worde for worde / miniſtred vntounto him owte off the bokes / off the ranckeſte enemyes off the trwthe. Phigius li. 2. Hier. c. 2. 9. Phigius 5 li. Hierar. Phigius countro. 16. Hoſius de legit. iud. rerum Eccleſ. Phigius l. 5. Hierar. Eccleſiaſ. cap. 9. Diu. 2. p. 156.Yff the reader will ſee this queſtion diducted at large / betwene the catholikes / and the papiſtes: let hym reade Hoſius / and Phigius / in thes bokes which I hauehave noted. I will onelyonly note the places whēce the Anſ. argumētes are fetched / with his ſtartinge holes vvherwithe he vvoulde abuſe the worlde. And firſte off all Marſilius a Catholike / whome the lorde had ſtirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Goſpell / Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. diſputinge againſte the ſole election off the biſhope: vſethe this reaſon whiche wee hauehave heere in hande / namelie / that foraſmuche as the churche choſe here Deacons / as it appearethe in the Actes: therfore yt owghte muche more chuſe her myniſters. This reaſon Phigius (as the D) derideth: no more hable to anſwer yt then he.

The manifeſte wordes off the texte are / that Paule / and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces / neither is there any learned, and godlie man browghte / or as Iam perſwaded can be browghte / that euer denied that the churches were in election off their miniſters / ioyned with Paul / and Barn. That Zuingl. ſaithe / ſome were p. CXCVcalled to the miniſterie off the worde, by the Apoſtels onelyonly: what is yt to proue / that Paule / and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myiniſters / withowte the voices off the churche? yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expreſſed / whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe: who tranſlatinge whole pages to no purpoſe / coulde not here aforde vsus one poore ſentence / off the lengthe off two lines. The other halfe off the ſentence is this: As (ſaithe he) vvhen Act. 8. 14.Acts 8:14by the decree off the Apoſtels, Peter and Iohn vvere ſente vntounto Samaria.

Marcke I beſeche yow / what manner of election this was. The Apoſtels choſe two / but ſuche as were approued myniſters before: what is this to proue / that the byſhope maie chuſe thoſe / whiche were neuer approued / or choſen vntounto the miniſtrie? The Apoſtels choſe them to goe an embaſſage / whiche ſhoulde be ended in a fewe daies: and what is that to proue / that a biſhoppe maie chuſe to a perpetuall function? The Apoſtels did yt withowte the conſente off that churche / vntounto whiche that matter did not belonge: what is that to proue / that the biſhope maie chuſe a miniſter / withowte the conſente off that churche / whiche that election dothe concerne? for that electiō belonged not / vntounto the churche of Ieruſalem where they were: if yt had there is no doubte but the Apoſtels woulde not hauehave doon yt / withowte the cōſente therof.

I leue here to ſpeake of the difference of biſhop / and Apoſtel / off twelue / and one: whiche beinge obſerued in the former ſection / needeth no reherſall. And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the biſhope: ſo yt maketh againſt that / for the whiche this place is browghte. For iff maiſter Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente / that Paule / and Barnabas did by them ſelues chuſe / withowte the churche: he woulde likely hauehave browghte that example / cōſideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Myniſtrie / whiche was off thoſe which were miniſters before.

But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge / ioined with ſhameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice: I will ſet downe Maiſter Zwinglius iudgemente in this cauſe / which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke / owte off whiche p. CXCVIthe D. hathe alledged this: but moſt manifeſtly / within les then a dowſen lines of the place / from whence he rente this. Hauinge inueighed againſte the Popiſhe election / bothe for that in yt one biſhoppe hathe all the powre / and for the vnworthines off thoſe which were choſen: he addethe / yt ſemethe therfore, that there ys nothinge ſo agreable to the ordinance off god, and to Zuingl. in Eccle.the oulde inſtitution, as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeſte a people, together vvithe certaine learned, and godlie biſhopes, ad other faithful mē hauinge ſkill in thinges, ſhoulde chooſe a paſtor. and a lytle after / Let therfore thes provvde biſhops, and foliſh Abbats goo ſhake their eares, for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election, ſhoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull, inſtructed by the counſels off learned men. for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one: ſo ovvghte not the rude, and vnlearned multitude, chalenge vntounto yt ſelfe alone, ſo great vveighte off the election, &c.

Let vsus nowe ſee whether the Anſ. be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maiſter Bullinger. Firſte who denieth / that Paule / and Barnabas did chuſe elders / and miniſters there? When we gyue vntounto them the gouernmente / and direction off the action / there is no reaſonable man can Imagin / that we ſhut them owte off the election. But iff yow thinke / that becauſe maiſter Bullinger ſaithe / they choſe, therfore he affirmethe / that they choſe alone / and withowte the churche: thes wordes can by no means proue yt / his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt. heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth: Thoſe vvhiche thincke (meaninge In the 4. Serm. off off the 5. decade, Tit. 1, 1, Tim, 5.Titus 1:1the papiſtes) that the biſhops, and Archbiſhop hauehave povvre to make miniſters vſe thes places of the ſcripture, Therfore I lefte the at Crete, that thovv mighteſte appointe elders tovvne by tovvne: and againe, take heede thovv laye not thy handes raſhely of any: but vve anſvver, that the Apoſtels did not vſe anie tyrannie in the churches, nor to hauehave them ſelues alone, doone theſe thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election, or ordination, other men in the churche ſhut ovvte. For the Apoſtels, and p. CXCVIIelders did create biſhops, and elders in the church: but communicatinge their counſaile vvithe the churches, yea and vvithe the conſente and approuing off the people: vvhiche dothe appeare plainly, by the election, and ordination off Mathias, &c. And there citinge howe Moſes did cōmunicate the choiſe off the magiſtrates withe the people. he addeth / And ſo no dovvbte did bleſſed Titus, althovvghe he had hearde thovv ſhalte appoincte elders in Creta: yet vnderſtood, that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly, vvithovvte the aduiſe off the church.

And becauſe this place is cited alſo / to proue that Maiſter Bullinger ſhoulde thinke / that the Election 14. Actes / ſhoulde be made by Barnabas / and Paule: let the Doctor heare what maiſter Bullinger writethe in the page before / ſayinge / That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche, to chuſe, and ordeine fit miniſters, hathe been ſhevved before in the ſecond ſermone off this decade, by the example off the moſte eldeſte churches in the vvorlde Ieruſalem, and Antioche: vvheroff the one did not onelyonly ordeine ſeuen Deacons, but alſo Matthias the Apoſtle, the other did ſet aparte to the miniſtrie, the tvvoo notable Apoſtels off Chriſte Paule and Barnabas: vvherunto is added, that the churches off the gentills beinge inſtructed, or directed off Paule, and Barnabas, did chuſe by voices elders, or gouernours off the churche. Where alſo he quoteth the ſame place off the Actes / whiche is here in queſtion. Thes was I conſtrained good reader to ſet downe / that thow mighteſte vnderſtande / that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againſte this cawſe / are not (as he falſly pretendeth) drawne from the Ioſu. 5. 3. Deut. 1. 15 Act 15. 22 & 16. 4.Josh 5:3Deut 1:15Acts 15:22Acts 16:4godly writers / but miniſtred vntounto him by ſome owte off the armorie off the papiſtes / whoſe they onelyonly be. The places whiche I alledged / proue firſte that yt is vſuall in the ſcripture / to aſcribe that to the principall in an action / whiche is commen to them withe other: then that althowghe S. Luke / had made no mention off the election off the churche / but onelyonly ſaide / that Barnabas / and p. CXCVIIIPaule choſe: yet therby coulde not be concluded / that the churche had no intereſte in the election / but onelyonly this / that Paule / and Barnabas were the cheife in that action. Yff that be aſcribed vntounto Ioſue / whiche he procured onelyonly / and layed no hand vntounto: howe much more maie yt be aſcribed vntounto Paul / and Barn. whiche they bothe procured / ād had ſome doinge in? and therfore that example of al is moſte apte / for that wherfore it is alleadged. I perceiue there is nothinge ſo cleare / whiche the D. will not eſſaie to darcken: ſeing he ſaith / that yt rather appeareth, that the people permitted the election off thoſe gouernours, to Moſes. The contrarie wheroff manifeſtly appearethe. for after that in the 9. verſe / Moſes had bydd them chuſe gouernours: in the nexte verſe he ſaithe / that the people accepted that commaundmente / and thowght off yt as a thinge equall. Therfore it is moſte vntrwe / that they retourned yt into Moyſes handes againe: for then they woulde hauehave anſwered / that yt was not meete for hym / to committe the election vntounto them / but rather for the wiſdome wherin he excelled / to doo yt him ſelfe.

And where the D. reaſoneth off the 15. verſe / vponupon the wordes I toke, &c. that phraſe dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpoſe / then cōfirme yt: for it ſemethe to hauehave a relation / to the gyuinge / ād preſentinge of thoſe whiche they they had choſen. And the very ſame Phraſe is vſed afterwardes in the 23. verſ. of the ſpies whiche were ſente to ſpie the lande: which notwithſtandinge were not onelyonly ſente off Moyſes / but off the people alſo / as appeareth in the 22. verſe / and in the booke off numbers: where the lorde doothe not 13. Num. verſ. 3.onelyonly attribute / this ſendinge off ſpies / vntounto Moiſes: but vntounto the people. Moyſes gaue no further authoritie vntounto them: then they whiche in eccleſiaſticall elections / ordeine thoſe whiche were choſen before / and confirme the elections whiche are made. Therfore as thoſe ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election: ſo this confirmation off Moyſes / did not deuoure that powre off election / whiche he had gyued them: but theyr elections / and his confirmation / made vp a full creation of thoſe gouernours. Towchinge the falſe accuſation off puſhing at the magiſtrate / I hauehave anſwered.

Thoſe verſes off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow p. CXCIXalledge / ſhewe who bore the ſwate / in the makinge of that decree: But yet in that the letters were written in the churches / and not onelyonly in the Apoſtels / and Elders names: and for that the decree ver. 23. ver. 25.is aſcribed vntounto them / by whome the letters are ſubſcribed: yt is manifeſte / that that conſente / and ſubſcription off the people / occupied ſome rowme in that decree. Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againſte that I ſaied / that the people had to doo in yt / and gaue conſent: but giueth aſmuch to the church as I / in ſaying / the churche committed the matter vntounto the deciſion of the Apoſtels, and Doctors: as thowghe it belōged vntounto the churche / and the churche / had put yt ouer vntounto them. Yt is enoughe for me / that the churches ſubſcription was there / and that not for a cyphre. Therfore althowghe S. Luke / for ſhortnes ſake did call yt the decree off the Apoſtels / and Elders: yet S. Paule whiche gaue them to the churches / and whiche in other places ſtandeth ſo muche vppon the authoritie off the churches / to ſtoppe the mowthe off the contentious: did not (by all likelihood) omyt the authoritie off the churche / to gyue them the more grace withe the churches / vntounto the whiche he delyuered them.

The Anſ. whiche will proue nothinge him ſelfe / but off whome wee muſte take all moſte althinges at his bare worde / hathe notwithſtandinge a great grace in ſettinge me to proue all thinges / Inſtitut. li. 4. ca. 3. ſ. 15. The former decade. Liuy 2. lib. ab vrbe. Liu. 3. li. ab vrbe. Diui. 3. p. 158.be they neuer ſo manifeſte. Let him then vnderſtande / that this whiche he requirethe profe off / is confirmed by the authoritie off maiſter Cal. and maiſter Bulling. The manner off ſpeache alſo is in Liuy: where the conſul is ſayed to ſet vp an other conſul / into the place off him whiche was dead: when he did yt not by his owne authoritie onelyonly / but by voices off the Senate / and people.

Yf the Anſw. coulde hauehave firſte gyuen his reader a drinke off the riuer off forgetfulnes, to hauehave made him forgette what he owghte to proue / peraduenture this talke off his mighte hauehave ſome ende: but iff he carie in minde that he hathe to proue / that almoſte al eccleſiaſticall writers doo affirme, the word liftihg vp of handes to be vſed in the ſcriptures, for the ſolemne manner off ordeining miniſters foreign.by impoſition off handes, and not for the election by voices: I ſay iff he cary this in minde / he ſhall perceiue eaſely / howe idle for the p. CCmoſte parte / this talke is. And verily all thes authorities here browghte / are either vaine: or directly againſte him ſelffe: or in ſufficient to proue that / whiche he vndertaketh. For to what pourpoſe are here alledged / two places owte off maiſter Caluin / two Canons gyuē to the Apoſtels / and the Teſtimonie off Ierome? They proue that lftiing vp off handes, is taken in eccleſiaſticall writers foreign.for impoſition off handes / whiche is confeſſed by me in plaine wordes: But to the perfourmance off your promiſe / that almoſte all the eccleſiaſticall writers affirme, that this worde is ſo taken in ſcripture: yet there is not one ſyllable. In this rancke alſo off idle teſtimonies / is that whole ſection off maiſter Gualter. For I confeſſed him to thincke / that the word was ſo taken: but yet ſo that withall / he ioyneth the election off the people by voices: Whiche the Anſw. woulde by that ſignification off the worde / ouerthrowe. So that all thes browght in off the D. looke another waie / then he woulde hauehave them.

That the Canons attributed vntounto the Apoſtels / make not to proue the ſole election off a biſhoppe / ſhallbe diſcuſſed after: here it is onelyonly ſufficiente to hauehave ſhewed / that they make not to proue that whiche the Anſ. alledged them for. Wherin I meruaile alſo what he meaneth / to aſke leaue of me that yt may be as lawfull for him to vſe them, as it is for me: as if I had vſed them otherwiſe / thē I owght. I neuer vſed them as the naturall canons of the Apoſtels / I hauehave ſhewed that they are not / nor can not be theirs: but as the Canōs off other Councels where amongeſt the bad / there are founde ſome good. And I neuer vſed them / but where I confirmed by Teſtimonie off the worde off God / that vvhichwhich I bringe them witneſſe for. Therfore this phraſe beinge vſed thriſe / or fowre times / withowte all occaſion: argueth hym to be a vaine trifler / whiche becawſe he hathe nothing to anſwere / gyueth hym ſelfe the bridle to forge / and ſurmiſe all maner off vntrwthes. And where by this preface / yt ſemeth the man woulde hauehave ſtricken this matter / as dead as a dore naile: yet hauing leaue to vſe them / he hathe not ſo muche as once come neere vntounto the matter ▪ onelyonly he hathe gained ſome fewe lines / to encreaſe his confuſed heape.

The next rancke is of thoſe / whiche are not onelyonly not profytable / but directly hurtefull vntounto his cauſe. In whiche number is p. CCIthe witnes off Maiſter Bull. that vvorde vvhichwhich ſignifieth lifting vp of handes, is ſo placed that vve may vnderſtande, either that they vvere choſen by voice off the people, or ordeined by laying on off handes: eſpecially if he had added the fowre next wordes / I thinke bothe vvere doone Wherby appearethe that Maiſter Bullingers opinion is / that bothe the churches choſe by voices / and the Apoſtels laied on their handes / which directly ouerthrowethe the Anſw. For his anſwer is ſuche / that onles the worde doo onelyonly ſignifie there the ceremonie off impoſition off handes / and not the election by voices: yt goethe to the grownd. therfore Maiſter Bulling. ſayinge / that boothe were doone in this place: there coulde be no flatter teſtimonie againſte hym / then yt.

And where he cyteth Maiſter Bullinger / that he is elected In 5. ſect. 159. pag.by common ſuffrages off the People, vvhiche is choſen by the teſtimonie off the beſte: I knowe good reader thow merueileſte / not / that it comethe owte off tyme / for that is his ordenarie: but doeſt thow not meruaile / what miſticall rethoricke hathe ſeperated ſo farr a ſonder / this ſentence from the other whiche he before alledged? Leue to meruaile / there is no greate arte in it / but there In the ſame diuiſ. 2. ſe. p. 158 I thinck both vvere doon.is ſome crafte. For if thow gyue heed vntounto him / yt may appeare yt was onelyonly to couer the trechery whiche he vſed / in takinge bothe that whiche goethe before / ād that whiche cometh after: leuing quite owte thoſe wordes by me alledged / whiche ſtande in the myiddeſt off thoſe two ſentences / marringe his whole marcket. And becawſe yt woulde hauehave to palpably appeared / if he had doone yt in one / and the ſame place: he makethe thē to come as it were ſtrangers owte off two ſeuerall countries / that dwell harde together.

For the ſentence it ſelfe / what would he trowe yow conclude? That the biſhope muſte hauehave the election? yf it be not that / I knowe not wherfore yt is browghte. Yf he meane to vſe yt therun to: then muſte off neceſſitie Maiſter Bullinger ſpeake thus / that he is elected by the commō ſuffrages off the people / whiche is approued by the teſtimonie off the beſte biſhops. Doe yow lawghe at thes thinges / when the D. is in ſo good earneſte? Seinge he p. CCIIſeeth that both the teſtimonie off the Scripture / ād writers oulde / and newe (Papiſtes onelyonly excepted) gyue intereſte off election vntounto the people: yet rather then yt ſhoulde fall from the biſhopps / he maketh a metamorphoſis / and change off the Biſhoppes into the people. The meaninge off Maiſter Bullinger (if any coulde be ſo ignorāte as not to vnderſtand) is / that the faithfull onelyonly hauehave intereſte in the election off the churche: and that the Papiſtes hauehave not / nor owghte not to hauehave to doo in it / nether any other heretickes / and ſciſmatickes from the churche. Whatſoeuer yt be / yt can be by no means drawne to preiudice the churches intereſt / whiche he dothe ſo plainly bothe here / and els where affirme.

And where yt is ſuppoſed / that the churche hathe leue to oppoſe againſte him that is to be elected: I hauehave ſhewed howe manifeſte mockerie yt is / off the churche off God. As for that whiche is ſaied off maiſter Bulling. and Maiſter Caluin iointly / that they hauehave affirmed off the ſignificatiō off the worde as muche as he: yt is a manifeſte vntrwthe. For maiſter Caluin neuer affirmed / that the ſcripture euer vſed that worde, to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes. Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before ſpoken.

There followeth in this ſeconde rancke Oecunemius / whoſe teſtimonie is ſo flat againſte the Anſ. ſignification off the word lifting vp off handes, and therfore alſo againſte the ſole election off the biſhoppe: as a clearer coulde not be required. His words be thes / yt is to be noted, that the diſciples vvithe faſtinge, and foreign.praiers did make elections by voices. Nowe ſeinge by the worde diſciples Saint Luke / and the Scoliaſt followinge him / continually throwghe the ſtorie of the Actes / note the people whiche belieued: it is manifeſte that the Scoliaſte dothe both cōclude vppon this place / that the people did chuſe: and cōcludethe yt alſo of the worde / lifting vp off handes. Whether in attributinge the ſame worde vntounto Paule / and Barnab. he meane therby the ceremonie off impoſition off handes: I will not (as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile) ſtande. yt is enowghe for me to hauehave ſhewed / how this teſtimonie makethe directly againſte that / whiche the Doctor affirmeth: that is to ſaie / that the worde lifting vpp off handes ſignifiethe in this place off the Actes / onelyonly the ceremonie p. CCIIIoff layinge on off handes. For if it ſignifie bothe the election by voices / and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands: then our cawſe ſtandeth as ſure / as if it onelyonly ſignified the election by voices.

And to this teſtimonie off the Scoliaſte agreeth the ſame Ignatius / Ad Philadelph. foreign.that the Anſ. in his former boke maketh ſo greate accompte off: who writeth thus / yt is meet that yovv as thoſe vvhiche be the church off god, ſhould chuſe by voices yovvr biſhopp. Wherby not onelyonly appeareth / that that author wil hauehave the churche chuſe her miniſter: but alſo how this worde is vſed off him in the proper ſignification / to note the election whiche is made by voices. Chryſoſtome remaineth / which taking the worde for the impoſition off handes / doothe not exclude the naturall ſignification. Brentius tranſlating Chryſoſt. had folowed that ſenſe I ſet downe: yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example / he is worthy off credite.

Let vsus now ſee what the Anſ. hath to ſay againſt thoſe reaſons / wherby I ſhew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes, ment properly the election by voices. I may not (ſaithe he) teache the holie goſte to ſpeake: God forbid I ſhould goe abowte yt. But ſhall not he whiche made the mouthe ſpeake / and he whiche teacheth all other to ſpeake properly / ſpeake properly him ſelfe? I doo not therfore teache the holy goſte to ſpeake, whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they ſignifie: but yowr opinion ſuppoſeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goſte / whiche woulde hauehave hym ſignify layinge downe / by liftinge vp. And where yow ſaie I trifle, becawſe he that laieth on his handes, muſte firſte lifte them vpp, or euer he can laie them on: who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge. For who dothe not vnderſtande / that the name is vſually giuen off the principall / and neareſt action wherwithe it is doon: and not off thoſe actions whiche are farr off / accidentall / or for the cauſe / and ſake off the principall. And yt is all on / as if a man ſhould call the takinge off a knife into his hande / cuttinge off breade: becauſe he that cutteth breade / muſte before take the knife into his hande.

How be it / if there were the ſame manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche / whiche is in poperie / and withe vsus / p. CCIIIIwhere he that is choſen kneeleth on his knees / to receiue the biſhopps layinge on off handes: yt is ſo farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand / or euer he can laie yt on: that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly / like a paire off hanging ſleeues: he muſte let them downe / or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is choſen. Therfore althowghe an other mighte vſe this poore ſhifte: yet yow which hauehave vndertaken to defende whatſoeuer the biſhops generallie doo in their elections / hauehave (if I ſhoulde deale hardly with yow) loſte this aduantage.

Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Teſtament / nor that S Paule / and Luke him ſelffe / vtter the layinge on off handes by other words. Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againſte him: but ye ſhall heare by and by / where he hathe not halfe ſuche a reaſon / the greate bell goe with certeinly, and manifeſtly. Howbeit althowghe thes ſeem bare coniectures to him: yt muſte needes hauehave weighte with thoſe / that hauehave their ſenſes well acquainted with the holy ſcripture. For they knowe that the writers off the newe teſtament / frame them ſelues vntounto the manner off ſpeache off the oulde / when they ſpeake off the ſame thinges: and for the gentils ſake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the ſeuentie interpreters / they kepe them ſo carefully to that: that ſometimes they vſe it / althowgh yt be not in eueryevery poincte ſo iuſte / ād ſo anſwerable vntounto the trewthe of the Hebrew / as mighte hauehave beene. Which thinge doone off all thoſe eſpecially / whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills / amongeſte whom S. Luke (S. Paules Companion) was: whoſoeuer conſidereth muſte nedes confeſſe / that this coniecture is not ſo bare as he maketh yt.

I aſke yff any man can reaſonably thinke / that in one and the ſame ceremonie / commen aſwell vntounto vsus off the Newe Teſtament / as thoſe off the oulde / Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of ſpeache of the Hebrewes / and the wordes off the 70 interpreters: to take a ſtraunge phraſe from the one / and diuers wordes from the other? or whether he woulde leaue the phraſe / and wordes which the Iewes / and gentils were acquainted withe: to vſe a phraſe whiche the Iewes neuer harde of / and a worde whiche was in that ſignification / vnknowen vntounto the Gentils? off all whiche when there is no one / which hath not force to perſwade p. CCVthis ſentence: ſo the laſte is ſuche / that yt leuethe no place vntounto any reſiſtance. For when the holy goſte ſpeaketh with the tonges off men / and to their vnderſtandinge: if by this worde lifting vp off handes, he had ſignified a layinge on of handes: he coulde not hauehave beene vnderſtanded / ſeinge that worde was of no ſuche ſignification in that tonge.

And where he ſaithe / I oppoſe my bare coniectures, to improue ſo many learned mennes iudgements: I hauehave ſhewed howe he hath ouer toulde. I hauehave no where reaſoned againſte yow / as if yow ſhoulde affirme that by that worde, the laying of on hādes, ſhoulde be mēte. Therfore if yow had ſpared that cauil / yow mighte hauehave bene cleare of two moe errors which yow are fallen into / by affirminge partly / that S. Luke by the worde lifting vp off handes, ſignifieth the whole ſolemnitie of creatinge miniſters (which can not be true / ſeinge he expreſſeth two other parts off yt / whiche are praier / and faſtinge) partly in affirminge / that he dothe in the wordes off laying on off handes all waies vnderſtande, the bare layinge on off handes onelyonly: when as in two off thoſe places foreign. 9. Act. 17. 19 Act. 6. 8. Act. 15.Acts 17:19Acts 6:8Acts 15whiche I hauehave alledged / it maie appeare / that by thoſe wordes is noted / not onelyonly the puttinge on off handes: but alſo the praiers whiche were made / for the receiuinge off the giftes off the holie goſte. Which thinge expreſſed in an other place to hauehave bene done by Peter / and Iohn / we muſt eſteme obſerued / at othertymes.

Yf I had not browghte the place off the Actes / the A. had 10. Act. 41.had nothinge to ſaie / to that I alledged of Saint Lukes borowinge this phraſe / not off thoſe which came many yeares after: but of thoſe which were before. But ſeinge deſtitute off yowr owne / yow are entred vppon my poſſeſſion / againſte my will / and ſo alſo that yow vvill thruſte me owte: let yt be ſufficient / that yow hauehave eaſed yowr ſelfe heere a vvhile. I ſaie therfore / that this place maketh againſte yow / in that this vvorde in that place / ſignifieth not a layinge on off handes vppon the heades off the choſen: Luk. 6. 13. Math. 28. 19.Luke 6:13Matt 28:19but a chuſinge by voices / conſideringe that wee reade plainly / that he choſe his Apoſtels by voice.

Let vsus heare now how it maketh againſt vsus. Firſte becawſe the word is not there taken, for liftinge vpp off handes: but for appoinctinge and ordeining. As who ſhoulde ſaie yt is not vſuall vntounto the ſcripture / and to all ſpeaches / by figure in one parte to note the whole: ād p. CCVItherfore S. Luke by that one forme off election / paſſed by the céremonie off liftinge vp off handes / notethe this election whiche was made by voce / off our Sauiour Chriſte. yt maye be alſo applied vntounto other electiōs / wherin by goinge from one ſyde to another / or by writinge his voice in a table / the conſente off the chuſer is vttered. So dothe the ſcripture by bondes / and chaine / 2. Tim. 1. 16. Act. 28. 16. & 30:2 Tim 1:16Acts 28:16Acts 28:30vvhiche are particular kindes off reſtrainte: note all manner off reſtraincte off libertie / althowghe a man hauehave nether bondes / nor chaines a bowte him. So that that which is ſo often ſaide in the goſpel ſimply / off our Sauiour Chriſtes chuſing his Apoſtels: S. Luke did here in figure / not without greate grace vtter.

Where yow ſaie / that by this means yt ſignifieth not to ordeine by ſuffrages: in deede in this place yt can not / conſideringe that our Sauiour Chriſte was but one. But vvhere yow vvoulde conclude Act. 14.Acts 14therof / that Paule, and Barnabas by their voices onelyonly choſe the miniſters, and elders: Yt is further a ſunder / then euer yow can ſett together. heere yow muſte be admoniſhed / that where the moſte off yowr witneſſes did forſake yow before: yow beheere forſaken off them all. For there is neuer a one off the newe vvriters eſpecially / named of vsus bothe: but vppon that place off the Aces / hathe in plaine wordes approued the election by the churche.

Secondly the perſon off our Sauiour Chriſte whiche choſe / with whome none mighte be ioined in commiſſion / and the perſon off the Apoſtels / whiche coulde not be choſen of any but off God: did ſufficientlie off them ſelues / withowte further addition / argue the ſole election off our Sauiour Chriſte. But in the 14. Actes / ſeinge nether the Apoſtels vvhiche did chuſe / vvere ſuche as mighte not be accompanied off the churche / nor the Myniſters that were choſen off ſuche degree / as mighte not likewiſe fall into the choiſe off the churche: and conſideringe alſo that all the elections off the miniſterie ſpoken off before / in whiche the Apoſtels had to doo / vvere by conſente of the churche: yt is cleare that if S. Lukes meaninge had beene / to tye this election as ſtreighte vntounto Pau. and Barn. as the other to our Sau. Chriſte: he woulde hauehave put in vvordes vvhichwhich mighte as clearly hauehave declared that meaninge in this / as the circūſtances of the perſons doo in the other.

Thirdly if this worde whiche notethe the choiſe by voices / p. CCVIIſhoulde be reſtreined vntounto Paule / and Barnabas: then alſo the vvorde vvhichwhich declareth that they praied ſhoulde onelye be reſtreined foreign.vntounto them: for as that is gyuē vntounto them / ſo is this. Nowe if it be abſurde to ſaie / that in thoſe publike praiers Paule / and Barnabas onelyonly praied: yt is as abſurde to ſaie / that they onelyonly choſe: and the ſame may be ſaide off faſting. For that which followethe foreignvvith faſtinges, is all one as if he had ſaide / faſting, ſauinge onelyonly that S. Luke for elegancy ſake / and to a voide the multitude of participles comminge ſo thicke / turned the verbe into the nowne. ſo that for ſo much as Paule / and Barnabas did not onelyonly faſte / but the churche alſo: yt muſte followe that they choſe not onelyonly / but the churche vvith them. Therfore as S. Luke in ſaying that Paule / and Barnabas praied, and faſted, meaneth not that they praied and faſted onelyonly / but that they wente before the reſte / in gouerning thoſe Eccleſiaſticall actions: euen ſo in ſayinge that they choſe by voices, he meaneth not that they choſe alone withowte the churche / but that they guyded / and directed the iudgementes off the churche. Laſte off all / ſeinge that all the twelue to Act. 1. Act. 6.Acts 1Acts 6gether / woulde not enterpriſe to doo any thinge off their priuate autoritie / vvithowte conſente of the churche: muche les can yt be thowghte / that Paule / and Barnab. woulde attempt yt.

Hereto make an end of this diſpute / I will anſwer that vvhichwhich is brought off this vvord p. 163. And firſt I deny that euer I ſaide / that this word by it ſelfe, withowte ioininge any thinge vntounto yt, ſignifieth election off many by voices. for yt can not ſignifie any thinge / vnles yt be ioyned with ſomethinge. Theſe vvordes (off the churches) althowghe they declare of vvhome the election vvas made: 2. Cor. 8. 19.2 Cor 8:19yet they are not added to note the manner of the election / as the vvorde Act. 14. but to gyue credite vntounto the embaſſadors / vvith the churches vntounto vvhichwhich they wente / that they mighte ſafely committe their monie vntounto them / for the behoufe of the churche off Ieruſalem. Therfore it is nothinge yow alledge / that this addiciō off the churches had bene needles, if the word liftinge vp off handes, had ſignified off it ſelffe an election by voices. For Sainte Paule ſhoulde not hauehave to the full / aduanced their credite vvith the churches: if he had giuen onelyonly to vnderſtande / that they were choſen by voices of p. CCVIIImany: conſidering that they were choſen / not only by the voices of many men: but by the voices off many churches. Wheruppon I conclude / that S. Luke Act. 14. vſed that word as the Grecians before him / for electiō by ſuffrages: and withal put him in minde / that his certein and manifeſt thinges, hauehave neither grownd to ſtand on / nor light to ſhew them by.

There are but two communities / one Anabaptiſticall which Diuiſ. 4, pag, 161,maketh equalitie off all thinges / which is / and euer was vnlawfull; the other Chriſtiā / vvhichwhich prouideth for neede of thoſe / vvhiche hauehave not vvherwith to finde them ſelues / vvhichwhich is / and owghte to be perpetuall / amongeſte all Chriſtians. Therfore yow can not eſcape vvith this circuit of vvordes / for either that communitie in the Actes / vvas ſuche as owghte to be amongeſte vsus / vvhiche yow denie / and propounde as an abſurde thinge: or els it vvas Anabaptiſticall / vvhichwhich is blaſphemous againſte the ſpirite off God.

Althowghe men maie be good Chriſtians withowte ſellinge their landes, and diſtributings of the price off them vntounto thoſe whiche hauehave nede: yet they can not be good Chriſtiās / if for neceſſarie releife of the poore of the churche weroff they are / they be not contente to ſell (the neede ſo requirring) euen their landes. And ſuche was the eſtate of the churche off Ieruſalē / vvhere there were ſo manie poore / and ſo fewe riche / that the vvante of thoſe vvhiche had not / vvith muche a doo vvas ſupplied by ſale off landes / and howſes off them / that had ſuche poſſeſſions. Which extreme pouertie maie eaſely be ſeene in other places / vvhere not hable to be fourniſhed of the riche of that churche / yt vvas faine to be ſupplied by diuers other. VntoUnto Act. 11 19 Rom. 15. 25. 2. Cor. 8.Acts 11:19Rom 15:252 Cor 8the reaſons alledged owte off S. Paule / to proue that the ſame communitie is commaunded of him to all Chriſtians: yowe anſwere not one worde. VntoUnto the vvhiche I vvill ad this / that I doubte not but that vvhiche vvas doone there / vvas ſo farre from oxtraordinarie doinge: that yt vvas doone by the cōmaundemente of God in the lawe / vvhere the lorde chargeth the Iſraelites / that there ſhoulde be no beggers amongeſte them For Saincte Luke Deutr. 15. 4. foreignſeemeth to hauehave alluded to that place / whē he ſaithe / there vvas no needy amongeſte them: vvhichwhich expreſſeth moſte aptely / the p. CCIXHebrew worde which Moiſes vſethe.

That which I browghte off Ananias, and Saphira, was to proue there was no ſuche communitie amongeſte them as yowr anſwer ſuppoſed / and to glaſe vp the the windowes of Anabaptiſtry / vvhichwhich yow had opened. And ſurely if the anabaptiſtes had (as they neither hauehave / nor can hauehave) warrant of their communitie / by this example off the moſte pureſte / and ancienteſt church / and in deede then the onelyonly church in the worlde / approued by all the Apoſtels repleniſhed vvith the ſpirite off God: they ſhoulde hauehave ſtronger houlde then M. D. ſhoulde euer be hable to pull from them. I doo not thincke yow fauour the Anabaptiſtes communitie, but partly ſeduced off others / and partely overcaried vvith the violence off yowr affections: yow are vnawars fallen into that errer / vvherby the Anabaptiſtes grownde it.

Where I ſaide / that all off the churche did not ſell their poſſeſsions: I confeſſe the worde poſſeſſion / was not ſo aduiſedly put / ſeinge therby is properly ſignified howſe / and lande / and thoſe which vvee call vnmouable goodes: vvhiche Saint Luke ſaithe vvere ſolde off as many as had them. But yet nothinge falleth of that for vvhichwhich I did alledged yt: and it is rather therby confirmed. For ſhewinge that all owners off howſe / and land did ſell them / and not that eueryevery one vvhichwhich had other goods did the like: therby is gyuen to vnderſtande / that not eueryevery one which had monay / or other mouables / brought them vntounto the Apoſtels.

The Adm. reaſon yow are not able to ſtir. For yf S. Paul. For auoiding ſuſpicion in a monay matter, did communicate the election with Diui. 5. p. 163. 2. Co. 8. 19.2 Cor 8:19the churches: vvhy ſhould he not to auoide ſuſpicion, off percialitie / ambition / and tyranny / communicate with them the election off the miniſters? Surely he was as far from ſuſpition off this couetous trechery with all men: as from ſuſpition off theſe faultes. And ſo much farther / as ſuch excellent wittes / and learninge as was in him / are eaſelier ouercome off thoſe other vices / then off this pilferinge off monay: which the groſſer / and vnlearned ſorte for the moſte parte offende in. Na vvhy ſhoulde not S. Paule be in feare off this monay ſuſpicion / if he had taken vponupon hym the election off the miniſters / ſhuttinge owte the churches? Doo yow p. CCXthincke that thoſe which woulde hauehave doone hym that iniurie / to thinke that he woulde hauehave turned the churche money vntounto his Act. 20. 34.Acts 20:34owne vſe (which often times with his owne hande erned bothe his owne lyuing / and others too / vvhichwhich refuſed the wages which he might iuſtly hauehave chalenged) woulde not alſo hauehave ſuſpected hym off the ſame faulte / if he had choſen the miniſters at his pleaſure / withowte conſente off the churche? Or doo yow not thincke that there are manie / which ſuſpecte diuers off the Biſhopps that waie: which ſaie that for a diſhe of fruicte of the gouldē gaiffe / they leaſe owte / and make all manner off marchandiſe of the Lordes orchardes: that he vvhichwhich hathe no gifte in his harte / yet if he hauehave a gifte in his hande / neede no other keie to opē the church doore / and enter into a benefyce? Yf therfore for the auoidinge of ſuſpiciō of corruption by moneie / it was needeful for Sainct Paule / to communicate the election off ſuch miniſters with the churche: howe muche more was yt needefull / for the auoidinge off bothe the ſuſpition off that vice / and diuers others / he ſhoulde doo the like in the ordinary miniſters? And if that vvhere needefull in S. Paule / for vpholdinge off his honeſte eſtimation to the greater fruicte off the goſpell: I ſaie as I ſaide / vvhat Archebiſhop ſhall dare take vppon him the makinge off a miniſter, vvithovvte conſente off the churche? For if Saint Paules innocencie of life / vvhichwhich (as the diamonte a peble ſtone) might ſhame all the Archbiſhoppes that liue this daie / had neede off this aide: they muſte off neceſſirie runne into ſuſpicion off all thoſe vices / vvhiche contemninge the iudgemente off the churches / make ſuche elections off their owne autoritie.

Where yow ſaie / that Saint Paule mighte have choſen them him ſelfe, if he woulde: I ſaie that it is vntrue / ād a manifeſte begginge of that in controuerſie. And to ſaie ſo is aſmuche / as if yow had ſaide: he mighte hauehave hazarded his good eſtimacion if he woulde / and lefte it at the curteouſye off quarellers / which ſowghte eueryevery occaſion of ſpeakinge euil of his miniſterie Beſide that yow muſte vnderſtande / that in the gouernmente of the churches / the Apoſtels vvere gouerned by the ſpirite of God: whoſe counſaile when this was / it was no more lawful for him to refuſe yt / thē to diſobey the p. CCXIlorde. Touching the vntrewth he chargeth me with / in that I ſaide / In his 3. Tr. 1. c. d. 4.the churche choſe 1. Act. it is before anſwered. And it is a vaine quarell of the A. that there was no election off the church, becawſe an Apoſtel maie not be choſen by men. As thowghe I had not ſet downe before / when I ſpake off that election / that I mean not the choiſe / which was made off one owte off thoſe two: but the choiſe off thoſe two owte of the whole churche: not that choiſe which determined / the Apoſtellſhipp / but which determined / who they ſhoulde ſtande for the Apoſtelſhip. And if no election of the church can be ſaide to hauehave beene in the fyrſte off the Actes / becauſe an Apoſtell can not be choſen off any / but off God alone: then can not the Apoſtels (which the D. affirmeth) be ſaide to hauehave choſen Matthias and Barnabas / owte of the reſte off the churche.

In the 1. 2. 3. ſections off this diuiſion / he hathe filled vp allmoſt Diu. 6. p. 164.a whole ſide / wherin ther is nothinge at all / which either is not gone before / or commeth not after / and ſo groſly repeted / withowte ether newe coate / or newe colour: that I meruaile he is not aſhamed. For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that alſo Cor. 8. 2. I hauehave replied before: to the other / anſwere ſhall be made in their places. Now then to begin̄e with the falſifyinge yow charge me with / I ſaie that althowghe I hauehave not gyuen yow the ſame wordes: yet I hauehave gyuē yow the ſame weighte / and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tonge / by whoſe autoritie I ſhoulde be bound / to the ſame wordes which yow vſe. I hauehave not taken yow / as yow doo me at the worſte: but I hauehave gyuen yowr wordes a fauorabler meaninge / then they deſerue / bycauſe I perceiued that yow mente to comprehende Cyprians tymes / althowgh yowr wordes euen to Cyprians time, woulde not ſo well beare it. yt is diſputed whether this worde vntyll, or vntounto, dothe ſhutte owte / or ſhut in the tyme wheroff it is ſpoken: but there was neuer I think anie / that dowbted vvhether that ſayinge in cōmon ſpeach / mighte be ſtretched owte / beyonde that time wherunto it is particularly applied. Notwithſtanding yowr wordes are yet more reſtreintiue. For yt reſtreineth more to ſaie / euen to ſuche a time: then to ſaie ſimplie / vntill ſuche a time. for that encreaſe off the worde euen, makethe the wall off ſeparation higher.

But nowe he ſeethe the vntrwthe off this ſayinge / he caſtethe p. CCXIIyt vppon Maiſter Muſc. and he muſt beare the weighte off yt. But ſuche moſte groſſe ignorance off the eſtate off the primitiue churche / was farre from him. And Maiſter Muſc. cleareth him ſelfe off it well. For when he ſaieth / that the election of the miniſter by the voices off the churche, endured vntounto Cyprians tyme: he meaneth not as the D. to put difference betwene the elections made by the people / and the biſhopp: but ſhewethe onelyonly a difference / betwene elections made by conſente off the people / withowte the magiſtrate: and betwene the elections made by the conſente of the people / withe the confirmation off the Magiſtrate. And that this is his meaninge / yt maie eaſely appeare. For purſuinge the profe of that election by the churche without the magiſtrate / alledging certein Canōs thus he cōcludeth. After this ſorte therfore vvere the Elders, biſhops, and deacons in times paſte Muſcu. de elect. & ord. Min.choſen: vvhiche faſhion they ſtill reteined, vntill the tyme off Chriſtian magiſtrates, vvhoſe conſente vntounto the election off the biſhops, vvas required. Therfore this abſurditie beinge the Anſ. owne / he muſte be contente to beare yt.

Yt makethe no matter that this forme of election, was not in ſome fewe churches off the worlde in Cyprians time: nether is it meruaile. althowghe in ſome places at that time / they had departed from the inſtitution of the Apoſtolicall churche. If it be proued that Cyprian teachethe / that it owghte to be ſo / and that it is Gods ordinance: if all the churches had declined from yt / as there were verie fewe: Cyprian muſte needes by that ſentence / diſalowe them. Althowghe I muſte alſo admoniſhe yow / that if thoſe fewe examples in Cyprians tyme coulde preiudice the trwthe: yet yowr biſhops election is not confirmed therby. for it mighte be doone by the elderſhipe of the churche / by aſſemblie off manie biſhops. moſte vnlikeſte is yt off all other / that it vvas doone at the pleaſure off one biſhope. Let vsus therfore come to examine Cyprians iudgemente / and ſee vvhether I hauehave reported trwly of him.

Firſte / as a trewante lothe to goe to ſcoole / ſeeketh the furtheſt vvaie: ſo the A. afraide off the lighte off Ciprians vvordes / makethe entrance into this ſentence by halfe a ſcore lines / vvhichwhich mighte hauehave bene in one. Heere good reader as the A callethe for p. CCXIIIthy diligence / ſo if thowe gyue a litle heede: thow ſhalte ſee ſuche open / and violente peruertinge / as coulde not be doone withowte cracke off conſcience.

Firſte therfore let vsus holde that (vvhichwhich I thincke is accorded off both partes) that Cyprians purpoſe is to withdrawe the people / from communicatinge with the miniſtrie off thoſe / which had fallen from the goſpell vntounto Idolatrie. To the confirmation vvheroff vvhen he had alleadged / the greuouſnes off that crime: he addethe / eſpecially ſeinge the people hauehave povvre to chuſe vvorthie, and to refuſe vnvvorthie miniſters. As if he ſhoulde ſaie / if it vvere not in yowr powre / to refuſe thoſe vnworthie miniſters / yow mighte hauehave ſome excuſe: or if beinge in yowr powre to refuſe the vnworthie / yow had not alſo powre to chuſe another worthy / yow mighte hauehave likwiſe ſomewhat for excuſe. For yow mighte alledge peraduenture / that it vvere better to kepe him ſtil / then to be vvith owte altogether / or to hauehave a nother as euill / or worſe then he. but ſeinge yow hauehave bothe power to refuſe the vnworthly / and to a chuſe a nother: there muſte needes befaulte. That this is the meaninge off Cyprian / and his argumente wherwith he calleth them backe / from communicatinge vvith the miniſtrie off thoſe vvhichwhich had fallen: all vvhichwhich can ſet the nominatiue caſe / and verbe together / muſte needes vnderſtande.

Nowe let vsus ſee vvhether the expoſition off the Anſ. vvill lib. 1. Ep. 4:mainteine this ſayinge. To accorde him and Cyprian / vve muſte firſte expounde thes vvordes to hauehave povvre to chuſe, and to hauehave povvre to refuſe, to be to ſtande by while they be choſen, or refuſed. Whiche maiſter D. gatherethe belike / becawſe Cyprian ſaithe / the election muſte be had the people beinge preſente. In deede it appearethe the maner was then / that he that was to be choſen / was before them: but is it a good reaſon / that Cyprian woulde hauehave the people preſente at the election / therfore he vvoulde not hauehave them to chuſe? ſeinge he had ſayde im̄ediatly before / that they had powre to chuſe. Yt is well therfore / that he added / that yt owghte to be doone by their iudgemente: ſo that if the churche iudged him not meet / he owghte not to be miniſter. And further addeth (vvhichwhich the D. is afraid of / and whiche he ſhamfully deniethe p. CCXIIIIin ſtate wordes) by their voices.

The examples out off the Actes wherwith he bringethe lighte Diui. 1. p. 133.vntounto that vvhichwhich he thawghte / are touched before: and amongeſt others by the electiō off the Deacōs / whiche becawſe the D. can not denie / but it was by the churche: he hathe lefte yt clean forthe. and yet moſt plainly he ſheweth this by exāple of an electiō / which was lately made in the churche wherunto he vvritethe: ſayinge / vvhiche vvee ſee to hauehave bene doone vvithe yovv, in the ordeininge off our fellovve in office Sabinus: thar the biſhopricke ſhoulde be gyuen him, by the voice off the vvhole brother hood and by the iudgemente off thoſe biſhopps vvhichwhich vvere preſente, and vvhichwhich had vvritten vntounto yovv off him, &c.

Thus therforey may be reaſoned / that was the ordinance off God vvhiche Cyp. taught to hauehave bene practiſed by thos examples (for he ſtil coupleth them together withe his doctrine giuē before / and groūded owte of the booke of nūbers): But he taught that in thes examples the people were not onelyonly preſente at the choiſe / but alſo gaue their voices: therfore it was Gods ordinance / not onelyonly that that the people ſhoulde be preſente / but alſo that they ſhoulde chuſe.

And here yt is againe to be obſerued / that this is another off the popiſhe ſhiftes. for vntounto Luther (whiche alledgeth that the people owghte to chuſe there miniſter / leſte the churche ſhoulde Pig. hierarch. 2. lib 9. cap. 5 li. 10. c. 16. contr. Hoſ. 1. li. de legit. iudic.Hos 1deſpiſe / or hathe him vvhichwhich is thruſte vppon it / vvhileſt it mighte not hauehave him whom yt deſyred) Pighius anſwereth that the meaninge off thoſe wordes be / that the people ſhoulde be preſente / and beare witnes: and the ſame anſwer is made by other Papiſtes / to other teſtimonies which are browghte. This by the waie that it maie be knowen / from whence the Anſ. prouiſion comethe.

Nowe to procede: Where he ſaithe / that the people had no voices in Eleazars election: I aſke him howe he prouethe that. If he anſwer becauſe it is not mentioned in the ſcripture / he hathe anſwered hym ſelfe more then twentie times / when he ſaieth / that it is an euill argumente to reaſon negatiuely off the ſcriptures. Let him now take this anſwer / That there was no like neceſſitie off examininge Eleazars miniſtrie by voices / as ther is off other eccleſiaſticall electione: p. CCXVforſomuche as he was choſen by the voice off God / whiche 20. Nom. 25.coulde not be deceiued. But Cyprian did well ſee / that if the lorde vvoulde not hauehave the iudgemente off the churche paſſed by in thoſe / which he him ſelfe had choſen by his voice from heauen: muche les vvoulde he hauehave / any miniſter thruſte vponupon the churche againſte her will / in elections vvhichwhich are made by men / withowte ſuche ſpeciall direction.

Nowe as this interpretation off the A. is directly againſte the wordes off Cyprian / directly againſte his meaninge ſhewed forthe by practiſe / and examples: ſo dothe yt directly ouerthrowe the whole ſcope / vvhiche Cyprian alledgeth thoſe wordes for: which is / that he mighte therby vvithdrawe the churches / from communicatinge with the miniſterie of thoſe vvhiche had fallen / ſeinge they mighte bothe put them owte / and chuſe other in their places. For if he mente the churche ſhoulde ſtande by to ſee vvho vvere choſen / and to obiecte againſte him if neede required (albeit not thus muche was euer obſerued of our biſhops) tel me who are they Cyprian mēt ſhoulde chuſe? magiſtrate there was none / The elderſhippe the D. dare not ſaie / for he trembleth at the verie name of it: I dare ſaie his meaninge is / to gratifie the biſhoppe withe this morſell / but yt will choke him if he ſwallowe yt. Yt is the porcion off a nomber / and therfore if it coulde be caried from the churche: It muſte come vntounto the biſhops that dwell rounde abowte that churche / where the election is to be made. And if the election / and depriuation by Cyprians minde / be in their handes: howe hathe the people powre to chuſe / and refuſe? For if they woulde / they coulde neither depriue the preſente incumbente / nor depriuinge him chuſe another. Anye off thes thinges ouerthroweth Cyprians drifte / and armeth the people withe replies againſte his exhortacion: namelie that they communicated withe their poluted miniſter / becawſe yt is not in them to depoſe him / but in the Biſhoppes rounde abowte: yt is not in them to chuſe another / but in the Biſhopps. Therfore his reprehenſion / and exhortation ſhoulde hauehave beene directed againſte the biſhopps / and not againſte them. And ſo it is manifeſte / both by the wordes / and whole drifte off Cyprian: that his iudgemente was / that by the ordinance off God in Eccleſiaſticall elections / the conſente / and iugemente p. CCXVIoff the churche is neceſſarie.

The Cuckoe is heere come againe: for looke the D. booke / Diuiſ. 7. pa. 167. pa. 136. ſ. 3. 4. & pa. 163 ſec. 1.and yow ſhal ſee ether the ſame wordes / or at leſte the ſame matter withowte any addition / Which are heere in the 1. 2. 3. 4. ſect. off this diuiſ. In the 164. and 165. pag. ſect. 1. 2. Yow hauehave yt ſet before yow almoſte all againe. This is not Colewortes twiſe / but thriſe ſodden. Yt behoueth that he imagine a great famine of learned writinges / that dare thus abuſe the cares / and leyſure off his reader.

Touching the variety of Electiōs / which he citeth out of M. Caluin / onles as vnnatural weomen doo their children conceiued in adultry / he purpoſe to make awaie withe his cauſe: I knowe not what he ſhulde meane / to offer yt thus into the handes off her enemies. For he writeth thus in that place alledged. In oulde tyme Inſt. li. 4. ca. 4. ſ. 10ther vvas none receiued, not ſo muche as in to the nomber off clerkes, vvithovvte the conſente off the people: ſo that Cyprian doothe diligentlie excuſe him ſelfe, that he had appoincted Autelius a reader vvithovvte aduiſe off the churche. And ſo reherſing Cyprians wordes / after he addethe: But becavvſe in thoſe ſmaller exerciſes, there vvas no greate danger, for that both they vvere in dailie tryall, and the function vvas not greate: the conſente off the people ceaſed to be aſked. And by thoſe ſmall exerciſes yt muſte needes be / he meaneth the Acoluthes / the Exorciſtes / and the Readers: whiche maie appeare to hauehave beene in 1. l. Epi. 3. 3 li. 22 4. li. 7. Inſt. 4. li. 4. c. 10. ſ.Cyprians tyme by his Epiſtles. And maie yet better appeare / wheras Maiſter Caluin (ſhewinge the cauſe / why the people was not ſo carefull in that behalfe off retaininge their righte) ſaithe / For there vvas none made ſubdeacon, vvhichwhich vnderunder that ſeueritie off diſcipline that vvas then, had not gyuen longe experience off him ſelffe in the clerkſhipp: and after he vvas tried in the ſubdeaconſhippe, he vvas made deacon. So that yt is manifeſte / that by the order off Clerkes there he meaneth thoſe / whiche were vnderunder the degree of a ſubdeacon.

He ſaith alſo / that aftervvardes the people did permitte the iudgemente, and choiſe off other orders likevviſe vntounto the p. CCXVIIbiſhope, and elders, excepte the biſhoppricke, or vvhē any nevve elders vvere appoincted. where firſte yt makethe directly againſte yow / that in times paſte not ſo muche as a poore Exorciſte / or reader was choſen / withowte the conſente off the people. Secondly / that he ſaithe Cyprian did excuſe him ſelfe vntounto the people / that he had choſen Aurelius: implyinge therby that althowghe he had ſome reaſon / to leade him to doo ſo: yet he was in the peoples daunger. Thirdly / that yt was the peoples righte / in that they permitted this powre vntounto others. Fourthly / that this righte was giuē to the elders / ād not to the biſhop alone / as yowe woulde hauehave yt. Laſte of all / that bothe the choiſe of the biſhoppe / and elder remained in the powre off the people. Wherfore yow vntrwly reporte / when yow ſaie / that the people committed the choiſe vntounto the biſhopes, and elders: excepte yt were in the election off the biſhoppe. For althowghe he ſaie ſo / immediatly after he addethe. Excepte peraduenture nevve elders vvere appoincted to the pariſhes: for then the multitude off the place, muſte namely conſente. And after he ſaith / Althovvghe in the elders alvvaies the conſente off the cytiſens vvas required. Hytherto appeareth / that all the elections Inſt. li. 4. cap. 5. ſc. 3.were made by conſente off the people: if otherwiſe / by their curteouſie / or (as maiſter Caluin in an other place note the) negligence.

Where the D. addeth / And ſome times onelie the miniſter did firſte chooſe, and then offer thoſe whome he had chooſen to the magiſtrate, who ratyfied the election if he liked it, if not choſe other, &c: In deede here is an election withowte the conſente off the people / but what is that & caetera? belike ſome ſtraunger / which perteineth not to this matter. Marke then againe good reader / that if this were his owne doinge: there was neuer ſuche a clypper off koine / as he of the writinges off Godly men. For yt followeth euen in the ſame ſentence / wherin the whole weighte off the cauſe dooth conſiſte / Then the matter vvas brovvghte to the multitude, vvhichwhich althovvghe it vvere not boūde vntounto thoſe foreiudgemēts: yet therby vvas hable to make the les tumulte. or if the people did beginne, that vvas onelie to knovve vvhom they did moſte deſyre: And vvhen the peoples voices vvere hearde, then in the ende the p. CCXVIIIclergie choſe. So that nether the clerkes coulde ſet in the miniſterie, vvhō they liſted: nor it vvas not neceſſarie to obeie the foliſhe deſires off the people. Coulde there be anie plainer wordes / then that the people was not bounde by that bothe the elders / and the magiſtrate had doone / but were yet at their choiſe / if they liked not the choſen? After Maiſter Caluin ſaithe / that this manner off election by the miniſters, magiſtrates, and people vvas in force in pope Gregories time: and like to hauehave continued longe after.

Off yowr Canons heere alledged one onelyonly excepted / which maketh nothinge for yow: the reſte make directly againſte yow. For the canon attributed to the Apoſtels yt is there ſaide / that if a biſhop choſen vntounto a churche, doo not receiue yt: he ſhall bee ſeperated from the communion, vntill he take yt But yf it be throvvghe the naughtines off the people, vvhichwhich vvill not receiue him: then he ſhall remaine biſhop ſtill, and the clergie ſhall be ſeperated from the cōmunion, becauſe they tavvght their people no better to obeie. Where appearethe / that the biſhoppe coulde not enter / onles the people were willinge. And where the canō woulde hauehave him biſhop ſtill: yt meaneth that he ſhould reteine the name of a biſhop / becauſe he was put by withowte his faulte. Whiche thinge was graūted to Miletius / to vvhō the Councel Socr. 1. 9. cap▪ Theodor. …. lib. 9. c.of Nice in the Synodall Epiſtle / gaue the naked name of a biſhop.

In the Ancyran Councell whiche yow alledge / there is the ſame: ſauinge onelyonly that yt is more directly againſte yow. For there the Councell willethe the biſhopp appoincted vntounto a churche / yf it will not receiue him to retourne vntounto his olde place of elderſhipp / where he was before. The ſelfe ſame dothe the Canon Which yow alledge owte off the Councell of Antioche / confirme. So that thes three Canons can tel the biſhop / apoincted by other biſhopps off the prouince / no other remedy if he be refuſed off the people: but to quiete him ſelfe and retourne to his oulde place off Elderſhipp. And that yow maie knowe howe contrarie alwaies maiſter Calu. is / vntounto the Anſ. obſerue that off the ſame Councell off Antioche / and no dowbte of the ſame Canon / whiche the D. p. CCXIXgathereth / that the churche hathe nothinge to doo in the election: Maiſter Caluin gathereth / that the Councell ordeined, that none ſhoulde be thruſte lib. 4. Inſtit. c. 4. ſect. 11.vponupon the people againſte their will.

The 12. Canon off the Councell of Laodicea / in ſayinge that a biſhop ovvghte not to be appoincted to the gouermente off the churche, beſide the iudgement off the Metropolytan, and other biſhopps harde by: gyuethe to vnderſtande / that as they had a ſtroke in that election / ſo ther were other that had to doo beſide them. For otherwiſe yt woulde not hauehave ſpoken ſo koldly off yt: For it ſaithe not / that the Metrapolitaine / and other Biſhoppes / ſhoulde onelyonly appoincte a biſhoppe: no not ſo much as that they ſhould appoint / but onelyonly that the Biſhoppe ſhoulde not be appointed / vvithout them.

The 13. Canon / which prouideth that it ſhoulde not be permitted vntounto the people, to make election off the miniſter: agrethe well with the 16. Canon off the Councell off Antioche. Which as it vvoulde not hauehave a biſhopp put vppon the churches otherwiſe frowarde / without their conſente (as hathe bene ſhewed): ſo vvill it not / that thoſe which the churches had choſen without the iudgemen off the biſhoppes rounde abowte / ſhoulde ſtande in force. And if either Maiſter Caluin / or Maiſter Beza hauehave any credite vvith yow / yow hauehave their interpretatiō / that the meaninge off the Councell was not / to ſhutte owte the conſente off the Cal. Inſt: 4. li. 4. c. ſec. 12. & vponupon the 14. Act. Beza confeſſ. ca. 5. Art. 35.church: but onelyonly to prouide / that the miniſters / and elders ſhoulde hauehave direction / as beſte hable to iudge off the fitnes of him that ſhoulde be choſen. If they hauehave no credit with yow / yet vvhether ye w…l… or no yt may manifeſtly be ſhewed / that the canons meaning was not to ſhutte owte the people / by other Councels / off Nice / off Conſtantinople / off Toled / off Cartage / alleadged in the former booke. Wheroff ſome goinge before / and ſome comminge harde after / with ſuche cleare teſtimonie off the peoples conſente in the electiō: decleare ſufficiently / that the Councell of Laodicea cannot be thowghte / to hauehave had any ſuche meaninge / as yow ſuppoſe. but that there be no cōtrouerſie / I wil add to thē the teſtimony off ſuche / wherby ſhall appeare / not onelie what the iudgmente p. CCXXoff thoſe Councels are: but what was bothe the cuſtomē off the churches / and the iudgement off other Councels from time / to tyme in this behalfe. In the Councell off Paris yt was thus decreed / 2. Tom. Concil. can. 8.And becauſe in certeine thinges the oulde cuſtome is neglected, and the decrees off the Canons are broken: yt is our decree that accordinge to the olde cuſtome, the Canons off the decrees be obſerued. Let none be ordeined biſhop, againſte the vvill off the cytiſens: but he vvhom the election off the people, and off the clerkes vvith moſte full conſente hath required. Nether by the commaundement off the prince, nether by any other condition, let hym be thruſte in againſte the vvill off the Metrapolitane, and other the biſhoppes of the ſame prouince. Orleans canon 10. 11.In an other Councel / Let yt not be lavvfull to get any biſhopricke by revvardes, or by other procurement: but by the vvill off the kinge, accordinge to the election off the clergie, and off the people, as it is conteined in the auncient canons, that the biſhop ſhoulde be ordeined by conſente of the clergie, and of the metrapolitā, or him that he vvill appoincte, together vvith the biſhops of the ſame prouince. And after / Beſides this accordinge as the olde canons hauehave decreed, no biſhopp maie be gyuen vntounto the people againſte their vvill: nether by oppreſſion of mighty men, vvhiche is deteſtable, let the cytiſens, or clergie be dravven to gyue their conſente. And thus muche for anſwer to yowr Councels.

To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers, is to fetche yt out off the higheſte courte off heauen: And I was not conſtreined vntounto it / for off more then halfe a ſcore reaſons brewghte / whether one off them be once moued by yow / I leaue it to be iudged. This commaundement pinched yow ſo / that albeit yow pretende lawghter: yet I dowbte not but yt is **Yt is an her be vvhichwhich he that eateth dieth, but yet maketh the countenance and ſhevv of oneSardons lawghter / that is to ſaie / from the teethe owtwarde. where yow ſaie / there is no worde which ſignifieth an election: yt is yowr olde boldnes / off denying that which is as cleare / as the none daies. Where alſo yow ſaie / that it ſpeakinge off layinge on off handes, can make nothinge for the election p. CCXXIoff the church: I beſeche yow ſyr how doo yow proue / that Timothe hathe the choiſe of miniſters? ys it not by thes wordes / vvhichwhich lavvgheth. Pa. 160.that he is bidden not to laie on his handes? and hauehave yow not ſaide / that by the layinge on off handes / the whole ſolemnitie off creatinge miniſters is vnderſtanded? this is faſte and loſe / and not onelyonly as Teconius ſaid / that that vvee vvill is holie: but when wee Aug 2. li. cont. Lit. Pet. 13 c.vvill / and as longe as vvee vvill. Belike the laying on off handes ſignifieth nothinge / or if it doo / and not the conſente off the people: Why doothe not the Anſw. tell vsus what?

And where he goeth abowte to finde ſome differēce in this / and that vvhichwhich I ſaie off the layinge on of handes by the Elderſhippe / and heroff beſides the peintinge off his mergente / ſpeaketh ones / twiſe / and the thirde tyme / accordinge to his olde manner of repeticiōs: He purpoſely as ſeemeth / paſſeth by my anſwer to that obiection / that not the people, but certeine that is to ſaie the elders in the name off the people, did laie on their handes: as it is to bee ſeene in other places / vvhere the gouernours in the Leuit. 4. 15.Lev 4:15name off all the people / laie on their handes vponupon the ſacrifice for ſynne. Where yow will mee to ſpeake in good earneſte: If I had onelyonly to doo vvith ſuch a trifler / I woulde either anſwer nothinge / or els as ſuch a one is worthie: but becauſe I hauehave to doo with the church off God / for iudgement off the iudiciall / and Ceremoniall law / and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing: I refer my ſelffe to In his 2. Tract. p. 120.that I hauehave ſaide before.

Yff this I hauehave alledged off layinge on off handes vponupon the ordeined / bee a Ceremoniall lawe / which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Chriſte: then the Apoſtels vvere iniurious vntounto his deathe / that tranſlated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnderunder the lawe / into the churche vnderunder the Goſpell. Therfore in this poincte yow hauehave to doo with the Apoſtles / and not with me. For as vnderunder the lawe the gouernoures / and the people conſentinge into one action / teſtified the ſame by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onelyonly: ſo vnderunder the Goſpell the elders / and people conſentinge in the election off one / doo teſtifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onelyonly.

Where yow vvoulde proue yt abrogated / becauſe yt yt is ioined p. CCXXIIwith other thinges, which are abrogated: I hauehave ſhewed howe that In 1. 3. P. 144.is an engyne / to wreſte owte off the handes off the church / all the morall lawes that euer vvere vvritten. Where yow ſaie / there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes, for that God had choſen them: Yow mighte hauehave vnderſtanded / that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onelyonly were vſed to the miniſterie / yet all that tribe / was not applied that vvaies: but as many as vvere thowghte enoughe to ſupplie that office / and thoſe alſo not at all aduenture / but by choiſe accordinge to their habilitie. I feare not Maiſter W. the iudgemente off the greateſte enemies I hauehave / and frendes yow hauehave / in this cauſe: but that their owne conſciences ſhall vvitnes vvithe mee / off my faithfull alledginge off the ſcriptures, and off yowr either notable ignorance / or very euill conſcience.

And in thes ieſtes off yowres / and accuſations off my byndinge men vntounto the Ceremoniall lawe / and bringinge them to Iudaiſme, and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe: Were yow not a fraide by my ſides / to thruſte thorowghe Cyprian? Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the miniſterie by the Nom. 20. chap.voice off the people / owte off the booke off nombers / vvhere mention is made alſo off the preiſtes garmentes vvhichwhich vvas ceremoniall. Or vvere yow not afraide thus to handle Maiſter Caluin? His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus / vvhoſe ſpeciall argumente 4. li. inſti. 3. ca. ſ. 15.is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers / which hath an other ſcope? He onelyonly vppō that it vvas cōmaunded / that Moſes ſhoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation, concluded that the peoples conſente ovvghte to be had, in the miniſters choyſe: and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the ſame grounde / and further alſo the comaundement that the people ſhoulde laie on their handes / to conclude as muche? He toke his place from thence / where nether in the chapiters before / nor in that owte of the vvhichwhich he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial: And was it not lawful for me to take this ſentence / becawſe other thinges in this chap. vvere ceremoniall / but that I muſte needes be thus ieſted on / and my diſcretion ſo greatly required / in handlinge the ſcripture? Therfore I ſaie that I citing this place am no more Iewiſh / then the Apoſtels / then Cyprian / then Caluin.

p. CCXXIIIWhere I alledged for the eſtabliſhing off that vvhichwhich he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law, that the grovvnd of childrens baptiſme, ſtandeth vponupon the ceremony off Circumciſion: He anſwering that circumciſion was a figure off baptiſme, but that the Leuiticall prieſthood was no figure off the Miniſtery off the Goſpell, is deceiued. For certein thinges in the Miniſtrie off the lawe / were figures off thinges in the Miniſtrie off the Goſpell: as their anointinge / ſignified that none maie bee admitted vntounto the 8. Leuit.miniſterie off the Goſpell / but thoſe which hauehave giftes meete for that purpoſe / as our Sauiour Chriſte him ſelffe owte off Eſai expoundeth yt. Euen their ſacrifices (vvhichwhich off all other thinges are 4. Lu. 18.furtheſt from the miniſtrie of the goſpell) ſhadowed out the mortyfyinge off ſynne / by the ſworde off the worde off God: that the myniſters mighte offer the people vntounto God / an acceptable ſacrifice throwgh Ieſus Chriſte / as appeareth by Saincte Paule. And Rom. 15. 16.Rom 15:16the lawes off the leuiticall prieſthoode / are not onelyonly figures off our miniſterie: but often times alſo / rules to directe yt by. therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preiſthood / before he vvas called off God / the vvriter vntounto the Hebrewes concluded / Heb. 5. 4.Heb 5:4the callinge off our Sauiour Chriſte to his preiſthood / ſo farre different from the preiſthood off Aaron: ſo wee conclude / that no man maie put his foote into the miniſtrie / oneles he bee called. Thes argumentes if Maiſter W. anſwer be good / are auoided vvith a floute / that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus, and Nombers: that they carie vsus to Iudaiſme, &c.

Yt is vvell the D. hath not to doo vvith the Anabaptiſtes. For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawſe / vvhichwhich hauinge ſo ſure groundes in the ſcripture▪ is here by him laied open / to their mockerie. For he ſaith / that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptiſme off Children: When our Sauiour Chriſte ſpeaketh there onelyonly off thoſe vvhichwhich vvere off diſcretion / as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptiſe thoſe / whom they hauehave made ſcolers off Chriſte by their doctrine. And therfore for ſo much as the Apoſtels coulde not teache children / nor coulde not make them diſciples by teachinge before their baptiſme: yt is manifeſte that he ſpeaketh not there off childrens baptiſme. And this might he hauehave p. CCXXIIIIlearned for his vſe / in the ſame booke off Zuinglius / oute of which he hath taken ſo manie thinges to no pourpoſe. And it is not onelyonly De baptiſmo. 2. Tom.Maiſter Zuinglius anſwer / but other learned mennes vvhichwhich hauehave had to doo vvith that ſecte. As for the promiſe alledged / that god is our God, and the God of our ſeede, albeit that bee the grounde / wherupon the holy ſacramentè off Baptiſme is miniſtred vntounto infantes: yet yt is not ſufficiente / vvithout addinge the commaundement off God / touchinge the circumciſion off yonge children. For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promiſe vntounto Abraham / had commaunded no circumciſion at all / or had onelyonly commaunded yt to be gyuen / to thoſe off diſcretion: yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to hauehave circumciſed his infantes / yet they ſhoulde hauehave remained vnderunder the promes. So that vvhether Yow vvill / or no: wee muſte come to reaſon from circumciſion vntounto baptiſme. Neither is that yow alledge / of Circumciſion to hauehave beene a figure off baptiſme, ſufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes / vvherwith yow ſnare yowr ſelfe. For albeit yt bee a figure off baptiſme: yet yt is aceremonie / and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe: and yowr anſwer is generall againſte all reaſoninge from the ceremoniall lawe / vntounto that which is eſtabliſhed vnderunder the goſpell. Therfore I vpholde ſtill / that yovvr anſvveres here, and in other places / tende to ſpoile vsus off diuers pillers, and principall buttreſſes off our religion.

Where he ſaithe / he condemnethe not other churches, which hauehave Diuiſ. 8. pag. 169.appoincted other orders of electing paſtors: I reporte me to thè reader / whether the wordes be generall / and vvhether the reaſons he alledgeth for that purpoſe / be likwiſe. Nether can the D. ſhewe any reaſon why in Geneua / vvhy in vvhole Dominions in Germanie / Why in Scotlande / in Fraunce alſo in the tyme off their peace / this order off election by the conſente off the people / ſhoulde bee good / and pernitious in England. Which notwithſtandinge owghte to hauehave bene ſhewed / if there be anie.

I expounded the worde ovvght, as reaſon vvheroff the lawe is founded / and experience vvhichwhich is often times the interpreter Cap. 5. pag. 170.off the lawe / tawgte me / to ſhewe that vvhere the conſente off all p. CCXXVcan not bee had▪ there the thinge ſhoulde paſſe / by the moſte parte of thoſe which hauehave intereſte. And where yow affirme / that lawiers doo ſaie, that that ſentence is to bee vnderſtanded of compartners, or iointe tenantes in ſome howſe, or poſſeſſion, and not off the intereſt off bodies politike: I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they profeſſe / and therfore iff that be ſhewed me / I will reſte in that interpretation. But the reaſon aſſigned / that it ſeldome commeth to pas that they will all conſente / ſemethe not ſo ſtronge: conſideringe that there is not ſo great violence doone vntounto the wordes off the lawe / which may not be founde in other places / if by the worde all, the moſte parte be vnderſtanded. Eſpecially when allthowghe all doo not agree: yet all hauehave had free voice in that matter.

And where yow ſaie / that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions: that is not materiall. For I laie not ſo muche weighte of this ſentence / as thowghe the cauſe ſhould riſe / and fall vvith it. I mente that as much credite mighte growe vntounto the cauſe by this / as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moſte part: off which kinde off reaſons not onelyonly orators / but the ſcripture yt ſelfe diuers times vſeth. And therfore if I gaine by this lawe / that the ordinarie choiſe off miniſters / owght to be by the people: I hath at I loked for. But yt is to be obſerued / that where the A founde faulte vvith me / for mitigatinge the neceſſitie off the worde ought, by this exception if it maie be: he notwithſtandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions, wherby the neceſſitie which he ſaithe that worde importeth / is quite ouerthrowne. And if thoſe condicions be trewe: then be like I did well vnderſtande the worde ought, the vnderſtandinge wheroff he can not aforde me. Yt is well you be no lawier. For yowe that are ſo liberall off a dinners talke / as to tell vsus off Many together, and Many ſenerally, with ſo many exceptions to ſo ſmale pourpoſe: if yow had beene ſtudied that Pluribus vt vniuer ſis, pluribus vt ſin gulis.waies / woulde hauehave troubled vsus all. for then yt is like vvee ſhoulde hauehave had alwaies Ceſar / for Chriſte / and Paule the lawier / for Saint Paule the Apoſtell.

But marke vvhat a trymme waie he hathe founde / to proue that the whole pariſhe chuſeth when / the biſhopp onelyonly chuſethe: that they are willinge to hauehave hym / whom they are compelled p. CCXXVIwhether they vvill or no / to receiue. Yea and not onelyonly that / but that eueryevery miniſter is choſen by the whole realme, that is to ſaie by thoſe which neuer ſawe him / nor heard off him. But hath he forgotten firſte that it is our controuerſie / whether the parliament hauehave doon well / in eſtabliſhing off ſuche an order off makinge miniſters and whether this egge off the biſhoppes election / laied in propery / could by the ſitting vppon off the Parliament (although neuer ſo godly) leeſe the poyſoned nature it had before. If that bee not agreed / this deuiſe that the people chuſe when the biſhop, bebecauſe yt was ſo ordeined by all eſtates) ſerueth not. This libertie as hathe bene ſhewed / is a peece off the liberties which Chriſt hath purchaſed vntounto his churches / by the ſheddinge off his precious bloud: wherin they owght to hauehave ſtood / and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate / or ſet ouer to others: then to giuegive awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen / wherunto this is annexed.

Moreouer we ſpeake off an electiō / wherin conſente is to be gyuen / as ofte as the church is deſtitute off a miniſter: and he off conſente ones gyuen for euer. We off an election which is paſſed / by all the howſholders off eueryevery church: he off that vvhichwhich vvas paſſed / by a fewe burgeſes in the vvhole realme. We off a free election: and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue / againſte yowr will. Now the Papiſtes may clap their handes / for againſte all the argumentes that Maiſter Caluin / Beza / Bullinger / Zuinglius / and others bringe to proue / that the church ought to hauehave right in the election off their miniſter / and that yt belongeth not to one biſhopp to chooſe a miniſter: they may anſwer / that the biſhop chuſeth not but the church / yea the whole realme. For the prince / and the people / and the vvhole lande hauehave giuen that powre vntounto the Pope / and the pope to him: ſo that whatſoeuer is doon in that election by the biſhoppe / is doon by the people. But ſee howe I forget my ſelfe / which alledge this vntounto him as a greate abſurditie / whoſe caſe in this queſtion / is all one with the Papiſtes: yet euen with him / it ſhall be ſufficient to vntie the bande, which wee hauehave bounde our ſelues with, onles he will hauehave the election ſtill continewe in the Popes handes.

And indeede he calleth vsus heere / to the conſideration off our p. CCXXVIIſinnes: wherby wee hauehave thus prodigally waſted / and gyuē into the handes of ſtraungers / the liberties which were bowght with ſo great a price. And wee hauehave better cawſe to thinke the earneſtlier off them / for ſomuche as the Anſw. lawgheth vsus to ſcorne / and woulde make vsus beleue that wee conſente to elections when wee are a ſleepe / that we chuſe thoſe / whom wee refuſe: and ſo other eatinge the kernels / he maketh vsus not a diner / but a feaſte with the ſhels.