A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 — Thomas Cartwright

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Thomas Cartwright

The canons off Arles Councell, off that attributed vntounto the Apoſtles, and of Antioch follow. The firſt / hath nothing not graunted / and ſerueth for filling onelyonly. The ſecond / ſuppoſed of the Apoſtles / ys foreign.the ſame with that of Antioch. That off Antioch / is firſt vnfaithfully tranſlated / after vntruly gathered vponupon. For where the Councell ſaith / that the Biſhop praeſident in the Metropolitan citie: ſhould hauehave care of the Prouince, becauſe all men vvhichwhich hauehave buſines vſe to come from all places, to the Metropolitane cytie. he hath pag. 332. turned the wordes off the Councell vpſide downe / putting in ſteed off becauſe all men &c. wherfore all men, &c. making that the effect which it maketh the cauſe / and the cauſe which it maketh theffect. The Coūcels meaning is / that forſomuche as men doo vſually for other buſines / reſort to the Metropolitane cytie: therfore the biſhop of it was moſt fit / to whom controuerſies ſhould be browgt. He tranſlateth alſo for pariſh, dioces: and ſo in ſteed that the councell ſuppoſeth the biſhop to hauehave vnderunder his charge often times / beſide thoſe in the towne he dwelleth in / certein villages which reſort vntounto his churche / as in Hitchin / and diuers other places with vsus: he to be ſure to put in enowghe / ſuppoſeth by his tranſlation / that the biſhops had a dioceſe / and their places beſide. If by dioceſe he meane ſuche as ours: I would gladly knowe / what thoſe places were / which the biſhops had beſide their dioceſes: when as in the largeſte ſpred of biſhops / they were notwithſtanding tethered within the compas off other dioceſes. Yf by it he meane a pariſhe / ſuche as eueryevery miniſter with vsus is aſſigned vntounto: why vſeth he dioceſe, to deceiue the reader / eſpecially when the Councells wordes pulled him to the worde off pariſ he? Yf he will excuſe this later faulte / and laie yt vponupon the tranſlatour of the Councels / which turneth Pariſh. foreign. Dioeceſ.Dioces: he confirmeth at vnawares that which I ſaide / that at the firſt a dioceſe and pariſhe were often confounded. Howbeit that the Councels wordes can not beare that ſignificacion / as we take Dioces / is before declared.

VponUpon thes wordes he gathereth / the hiſhops are ſubiecte vntounto the metropolitane, and that the councell willeth them to be ſo: which is very pag. 333. pag. 471.vntrue, for there is no worde in that canon / that proueth ſubiection / muche leſſe expreſſeth. As for the honor which they ſhould giuegive him: I hauehave ſhewed what it is owte off the Councell off Nice: the care for other churches in the Prouince cometh after to be conſidered. For the bringing off matters vntounto him / which they coulde not ende at home: yt appeareth by diuers places / that they were not browght to him to determin / but onelyonly to make relation off / vntounto the prouinciall councell: and that he coulde ende Triparti. hiſt. li. 9. cap. 13. Carth. 4. ca. 25. Cōſtanti. 1. cap. 3.no matter / but which aduiſe off other Biſhops in the ſame Prouince. In the Africane Coūcell yt was decreed / that if a aAphr. cōc. 87. c.biſhop ſtriuing vvith an other about the territories, entred into them vvithovvt hauing reſolutiō of the other biſhops: althovvgh he had the peoples conſent, and Metropolitanes letres, he ſhould leeſe his cauſe. In the Councell of bSard. conc 9. c.Sardis / abowt the ſame time with that off Antioch / the biſhops call their Metropolitane, brother, and fellovv biſhop. What Lordſhip and dominion can be gathered off thes thinges / I know not.

And that this was the firſt inſtitution off Metropolitanes which I hauehave alledged / and that I hauehave herin not ſtraied from the meaning of the Councels / may appeare by the teſtimonies Inſtitut. 4. li. 4 ca. ſect. 4.off others / which hauehave ſpoken off this matter. Caluin ſaith: they vvere inſtituted, for preſeruatiō onelyonly of the policie: and what that was / he ſheweth by the biſhop / the ſame in his owne churche / which the Metropolitane in the Prouince. That yt was as the office off a Preſident in a Councell, to propound matters, togather 4. li. 4. c. ſect 2.the voices, &c and to put that in execution, vvhichwhich vvas decreed by the reſt: denying flatly that he had any dominion ouer the Elders off the ſame churche, and affirming that he him ſelf vvas ſubiect to the companie of the elders The ſame therfore by his iudgement / muſt be the ſtate off the Metropolitane / In his aſvver to Choclaeus and Groperus: of their accuſat. to the Emp.towardes other Biſhops. Bucer ſaith / there vvere certe in biſhops aſſigned to the cheif ſeates, vvheroff they had a ſingular care: vvhichwhich did not be hauehave themſelues as biſhops ouer the biſhops off thoſe dioceſes, but if any of them faulted: admoniſhed him as one brother doth an other, as one fellovv, and companion in office doth an other. And if the biſhop admoniſhed, ether did not, or could not amend the fault: he made relation of the vvhole matter vntounto the Synode. After he ſheweth that at the firſt the excellencie, and preeminence off the biſhop off Rome, Conſtantinople, and Alexandria, &c. vvas not off povver and iuriſdiction, but of knovvledge, zeale, care, and help of others: vvhichwhich thoſe cheif biſhops did ſo yeald vntounto the churches, that they left the vvhole right off the biſhops office, equall vvith that they thē ſelues executed, vntounto eueryevery biſhop. Bullinger / after he had proued all dominion / primacie / and maioritie Serm. 57. vponupon the Apocal./ forbidden by our Sauiour Chriſt vntounto the miniſter / ſaith: From the beginning the Apoſtels, and miniſters off the churches vvhichwhich folovved the rule off the Apoſtels, gouerned their churches equally, vvithovvte that one vvas preferred before an other (which he offereth to proue by manie teſtimonies): and aboute the councell off Nice, and a litle before, Metropolitanes by mans ordinance not to be contemned, vvere receiued: vvhichwhich ſhould as it vvere be preſidentes vntounto the reſte, or rather ſerue all the reſte in calling Synodes. And yt vvas very vvarely prouided, that he ſhould not be called the primate, leſte any man ſhoulde thinke, that he vvas ſuperior vntounto other in povver, but in order onelyonly.

Wherin almoſte all the poinctes off the Archbiſhop / and Metropolitane / debated betweene the Anſw. and vsus / are conteined. For firſte / he denieth that there was any preferment of one miniſter aboue an other / in the Apoſtles times. Secondly he ſaith / the office off the Metropolitane came in a litle before the Councell off Nice. Thirdly / that it was not lawfull for that metropolitane to be called primate. Fourthly / that he had no power ouer the reſte / but ſerued onelyonly for keping of order in meetinges. All which thinges we affirme / and the D. denieth: and that not withowte a triumphe. As for that he ſaith / this inſtitution of man is not to be diſpiſed it appeareth that he ment not to commend it / but onelyonly to ſignifie that if yt had remained in that ſimplicitie it might hauehave bene the eaſlier borne: eſpecially / conſidering they hauehave no ſuch order off Metropolitanes / with them. The B. off Saliſbury / vntounto Harding obiecting that the primates had autoritie Defenſ. Apolo. 2. pa. 3. c. 5. diuiſ.ouer inferior biſhops / anſwereth: they had it by agreemēt, and couſtome, but nether by Chriſt, nor by Peter, nor Paul, nor by any right off Gods vvord. Wherby not onelyonly ys confirmed / that whiche I propounded / off my not variyng from the godly writers: but alſo falleth the D. dreame / that they were inſtituted by the Apoſtles. Yea further appeareth / that their inſtitution with autoritie ouer other / was vnlawfull: as that which hath no manner warrant owt off the word off God.

Hauing anſwered the Councells / I returne vntounto Ieromes place / as yt is ſet downe off the Anſ. He ſaith / it is a poore refuge to diſcredite the autor. I ſpared the autor / caſting part of the error vpō In 3. c. diuiſ. 16 p. 369.the times wherin he liued: which I proued corrupter and further from the truth left by thapoſtles / by a reaſon which he could not ſo much as wrangle with: althowgh as towching the proofe off an archbiſhop / or biſhop ſuche as ours / I am content the Anſ. ſet vp his credit as much as he will. He ſaith / there is no difference betwene Cyprians biſbop, and Ieromes. Seing he will needes hauehave it ſo / let one meaſure be off both: and therby I truſt ſhall appeare / off that which I hauehave ſpoken before / that Ieromes biſhop is lower by heade and ſhoulders / then they for whom his autoritie is houlden owt. Howbeit if in Cyprians time / the biſhop onelyonly had not the laying on of handes / and ordeining him that was choſen to the miniſtrie by the church / but the Elders: and he did nothing in his church, or pariſh but vvith aduiſe of Cypr. 10. Epiſt. li. 3the Elders theroff: yt appeareth that Ieromes biſhop / althowgh differing onelyonly from an other miniſter / in ordeining Elders / and Deacons / had ſomwhat encroched vponupon the boundes off the preſbitery / more then Cyprians Laſtly he ſaith / for the corruption off times, this kinde of biſhop was deuiſed. I willingly giuegive teſtimonie vntounto thoſe gouernours / or at leaſt the moſt off them / that they had a good meaning in that inuention off man: but that it was remedy againſt the corruptions / I deny. And to the reaſons before alledged for proofe therof / let this be added: that euen from the firſt day / wherin this deuiſe was eſtabliſhed / the corruption in the church was not deminiſhed / but grew / and got ſtrenght by litle / vntill the whole face of the earth was couered / and the power off darcknes / in the fulnes off Antichriſtes kingdome / wholy ſetled. Likewiſe / that the firſt reſiſtance by any ſetled church againſt that corruption / was by thoſe which aboliſhed that deuiſe off man / and receiued the order in the Apoſtels times / towching the equalitie off miniſters. As the Bohemians / Merindoles / the churches in Germany / and Geneua: whoſe ſtanderd bearers (as partly hath appeareth / and more hereafter ſhall) fowght againſt this ſtately dominion both of biſhops / and archbiſhops

The next diuiſ. I leaue to the readers iudgement / referring him to that anſwered in the beginning. In the next / as one whoſe forehead is more hard then Adamant / he ſhameth not ſtill pag. 371.to affirme / that this manner off biſhop, and archbiſhop was in the Apoſtles time: notwithſtanding the autor owt off whom he draweth his proofes / confeſſeth that at the firſt there was no difference betwene a biſhop and an Elder: and that after it was decreed / that in eueryevery church one onelyonly ſhould hauehave the name of biſhop. Yf it were the firſt inſtitution that they ſhoulde be one / and the firſt inſtitution be the Apoſtels inſtitution: it was the Apoſtels inſtitution that they ſhoulde be all one. yf the Apoſtels did reuoke this inſtitution off theirs: ſhewe their handes / bringe forthe their euidence. Ierome prouethe by diuers teſtimonies off ſcripture / that a biſhop and elder were one / according to S. Paul. Therfore if the D. auoide this autoritie: he muſt ſhewe vsus the Apoſtels autoritie in writing. for herin yt is trwe that the lawe ſaith / matter of vvriting and recorde, can not be auoided but by that of as high a nature. He gathereth that this order of biſhops / and archbiſ. was in thapoſtles times / becauſe there were ſchiſmes then. I hauehave by this reaſon proued in an other place / that th…e were no archbiſhops: where if he had any thinge / he ſhould hauehave ſpoken. And how is he bewitched which ſeeth not the wordes of his autor? For when aad Eua.Ierome ſaith / this came by cuſtome: he euidently declareth that … was not by determinacion of the Apoſtels. The ſame declareth bin an Epiſtle vntounto Iero.Auguſtin when he ſaith / the office of a biſhop vvas greater then off an other myniſter, as tovvching the names off honor, throvvghe a cuſtome off the churche, vvhichwhich novve hathe gottē the vpper hand. Likewiſe when cAd vſus Lucif.Ierome ſaithe / this preferment of the biſhop is not by any neceſſitie of lavve, but for that yt vvas graunted to honor him vvithall: yt ys manifeſte that yt was not by the Apoſtlels determinacion. For yf yt had bene their inſtitution: yt had bene neceſſarie.

After admitting yt was after the Apoſtels / he procedeth to anſwer dContr. Prax.Tertullian which ſaithe / that ys true vvhichwhich is firſt, that ys falſe vvhichwhich is later. But how cometh yt to paſſe / that he anwereth not that alledged owte off our Sauiour Chriſtes ^e wordes: which calleth the Phariſies vntounto the firſte inſtitution? that Mat. 19. ….was belike to harde for him to byte vponupon. And the anſwer vntounto Tertullian is abſurde. For he bringeth him in reaſoning as he vſeth: that is / prouing the thinge in controuerſie / by that a like doubtefull. For if the rule of Tertullian extende yt ſelfe no further / then vntounto thinges he there ſpeaketh of / and in debate: his reaſon is no reaſon / but a giddie turne aboute / wherin altowghe greate paines be taken / yet there is no grownde gotten. Wheras Tertullian proue the / that Praxeas iudgement of our Sau. Chriſte was therfore naught / becauſe yt was new / ād new becauſe yt was not agreing with that gyuen by the ſcripture. Moreouer his anſwer to the place / preſumeth that the gouernement off the churche is not a matter off faithe / and ſaluacion: which is the queſtion. And as for his Phantaſies he reſembleth my reaſon with / they hauehave nothing like. For beſide that there were Chriſtian magiſtrates / baptiſinges in churches / cōmunion miniſtred vntounto more then 12▪ in thapoſtels times / and off their alowance: the Apoſtels neuer tawght that there ſhould be no Chriſtiā magiſtrates / no baptiſinges hut in riuers / no eating off thinges ſtrangled / &c. (the contrary off all which they plainly taught / ordeining onelyonly that the Gentils ſhould ſupport the Iewes / in ſtrangled thinges / abut they rawght that a biſhop and traching elder be all one / and neuer alowed that one Paſtor ſhoulde take the name off a biſhop from all his fellows within 40. myles compas. The teſtimonie owt off Tertull / maketh way for Montanus hereſie: In the … Tractat▪wherof I hauehave ſpoken beforé.

VntoUnto the nexte diuiſ. he anſwereth not. For yt being plaine that the Apoſtels tawght / that a biſhop and elder were all one: becauſe he had nothinge to anſwer / he leueth that / and runnethe backe to that handled in the beginning / off the equalitie off miniſters. As for the teſtimonie owte of Zuinglius: firſte yt is vntrw / that the Anabaptiſtes obiecte this place againſte Zuinglius, which I hauehave preſſed him with: ſecondly / yt is vntrue that they obiected vntounto him in the like caſe which wee doo. for in all their controuerſies with him / they hauehave not one of thoſe pointes now debated. And where he ſaith / Tertullians wordes ſerue not / becauſe thes degrees are not againſte the truth: let him denie if he dare / that this is the truth off God / that a Biſhop / and an other miniſter off the word / be all one. Then let him anſwer whether thes ſayinges (a biſhop / and an other miniſter off the word are all one: a biſhop / and an other miniſter off the word be not all one) be oppoſed / and ſet one againſt an other. If he can deny none off theſe / then it ys iuſtly concluded: that this inuention off man / which hath made a biſhop to differ from another myniſter off the worde / is againſte the truth.

Becauſe I louelove not that compas off wordes / which the D. delighteth in / I concluded ſhortly / and yet ſufficiently to the vnderſtanding Diuiſ. 20. &c. pag. 372. &c.off any / that dothe not willingly blindefolde him ſelfe. My argument ys: The beſt deciding off controuerſies, vvas in the apoſtels time: but that vvas not by archbiſhops: vvherfore the beſt deciding of cōtrouerſies, is not by archbiſhops. for proofe that yt was not by archbiſ. / I ſet downe that there were no archebiſhops then. VntoUnto this deformed face off reaſon (as he calleth yt) let vsus ſee how formally he anſwereth. Firſte he ſaith / we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemēt, vſed by the Apoſtels: and therin referreth him ſelfe to that he hath / and ſhal ſaie: where alſo let him take his anſwer. Secondly / that althowghe the Apoſtels had not Diuiſ. 19. Pag. 310.the name off Archbiſhops / yet they had the office: which I hauehave ſhewed to be a ſhift of the Papiſtes. Then yt is to be obſerued / how he proueth that thapoſtels had the office of an archbiſhop / foreign. The meane is conſequente to bothe the extremes.and in what good logicke. Archbiſhops hauehave the direction off many churches, the ending off controuerſies, &c. the Apoſtles had the ſame: therfore the Apoſtels were archbiſhops. by this reaſon a man maie proue not onelyonly diuers / but contrary thinges to be all one: ſeing contraries hauehave diuers thinges wherin they agree. So that firſt this kinde off reaſoning hath the fault of thoſe ridiculous argumentes / which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. ſecondly yt taketh for graunted / which is the queſtion. For he preſumeth that the Archbiſhops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes: which is debated. Thirdly / to proue the Apoſtels autoritie in the churches (which is not in queſtion) he hath made a greate muſter of teſtimonies: to proue the archbiſhops / not a word. After he cyteth Ambroſe / to proue that Apoſtles are biſhops. Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church / for whoſe eſtabliſhement the Anſw. is conſtreined / thus to confound / and make a broile off all: and it is before confuted.

Howbeit admitting that the biſhops ſuccede vntounto the Apoſtels in preaching the word / and gouerning the church: I hauehave In 3. Tra. Diuiſ. 4.ſhewed how that is a whip to driue the archbiſhop cleane owt of the church off God. And this is here to be obſerued / that when it is ſaide the biſhops ſuccede vntounto the Apoſtels &c. that muſt be vnderſtanded off the Apoſtles biſhops / and ſuch as they inſtituted. For what biſhops hauehave better right to ſuccede the Apoſtles / then they? But thoſe were (as I hauehave ſhewed) biſhops off ſingular congregations / biſhops which had no ſuperiotitie ouer their fellowbiſhops / as Ierome doth confeſſe. In the end he ſaith / If I can proue by good autoritie, that one was gouernour amongeſt the 12. Apoſtles: it ſhall not ſeme ſtrange to hauehave an archbiſhop ouer a Prouince. If vponupon this that one had gouernement of 12. aſſembled in a particular place / he can conclude that there ſhould be one gouernour off the miniſters in a Prouince: I can with better reaſon conclude / that there may be one to gouerne all the miniſters in the worlde. For if becauſe one gouerned twelue / therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince: then becawſe one may gouerne all in a Prouince / I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde. As towching the number off thoſe which are gouerned / there is not ſo much difference betwene the miniſters off a Prouince / and the miniſters off the whole church: as betwene 12. and the miniſters off ſome whole Prouince. Towching the diſtance off place / yt is as much betwene a Prouince / and the wole extent off Chriſtianitie: as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth / and ſome Prouince. Wherfore this reaſon is more fauorable to the Pope / then to the Archbiſhop. Peters ſuperioritie ſhall be after ſeen: where alſo this ſentence of Ierome ſhall be anſwered. OnelyOnly here let it be obſerued / that the Anſw. hath borowed this reaſon off Pope Anaclete / which alledgeth it to proue Archbiſhops. Tom. 1: Concil. li. 3. ca. …. Hierar. eccleſia.And it is browght alſo of Pighius againſt the proteſtantes / which denied that there owght to be any archbiſhops: as ſhall appeare herafter more at large.

The place off Caluin / is handled afterward: Bucers vponupon the Epheſ. I hauehave anſwered. That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the ſame in effect / hath the ſame anſwer. Howbeit it is here to be noted / how the D. thorowgh greedy deſire off ſeeming to ſay ſomwhat / putteth downe with one hand that he ſetteth with the other. For to the maintenance off the archbiſhop and biſhop / here be browght two teſtimonies / one of Ierome / thother of Bucer cleane contrary. If Ierome ſay true / that the ſuperioritie off one Biſhop ouer an other is by couſtome, not by inſtitution off God: then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer / that it pleaſed the holie goſte yt ſhould be ſo. For if it be off the holie goſte it is the inſtitution of God. The D. therfore muſt forgoe one off thes / ſeing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh. The contrarietie with my ſelf, which the gloſſe chargeth me with / is for that pag. 349. I ſaied owt off Euſebius / that as long as thapoſtles liued, if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine, they dit it in the darck: and here (owt off the Apoſtle) I affirme / there vvere hereſies, and ſchiſmes. Wherin what contrarietie there is / and what a trifler this is / let the reader iudge. ſauing that if there were any contrarietie: it is not mine with my ſelf / but Euſebius with the Apoſtle.

The Anſw. would gird vp his Archbiſhop in ſmaller roume / that he might ſeme les growen owt off faſchion. He ſaith Diuiſ. 22. Pag. 373. &c.therfore / the archbiſhop when a ſchiſme, or hereſie riſeth, determineth yt according to the law eſtabliſhed by the church. Wherin he ſpeaketh abſurdly / conſidering that the church can make no other rule / wherby he may procede in deciſion off ſchiſmes / and hereſies: then in referring him to the rule off the ſcripture. So the ſumme off this anſwer is / the Archbiſhop may not determin the matter at his pleaſure / but according to the word off God. As thowgh the queſtion were / by what rule controuerſies ſhould be decided: and not by whom. For when the controuerſie at Antioch was referred to the Apoſtles / &c. in Ieruſalem: it was not permitted vntounto them otherwiſe to iudge off it / then according to the word. Now therfore let it be obſerued how aptly the D. anſwereth. To abat… the ſwelling autoritie off the Archbiſhop / I alledge that in deciding cōtrouerſies / yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf. The D. ſaith / the archbiſhop muſt determin by the word off God. As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onelyonly / it ſhould not hauehave bene with the ſame bond off keping him to the word: yet yt was not ſo committed / as I hauehave alledged. And if he think more ſuccour for him in the wordes he vſed / the archbiſhop muſt determin according to the rule of the church: it is certein alſo that the companie of Apoſtles / and Elders in Ieruſalem / and what companie ſoeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of ſuch matters / is ſubiect vntounto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche / prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf. So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vntounto the Apoſtles / and Angels themſelues: the exceſſiue autoritie off tharchbiſhop doth ſtill appeare / in that he alone endeth controuerſies / which in the Apoſtolike church was not committed but vntounto many.

For as for that in the next diuiſ. (he compoundeth not controuerſies by him ſelf alone) onles he meane that he hath his ſeruantes the Chaunceler / and Archdeacon / or ſome other off his owne ch…ſ… ▪ the booke ſet owt by tharchbiſhop of late / doth declare the cōtrary: and the experience off his viſitacions / and depoſing off miniſters doth openly conuince him of vntruth. If he ſay he is not alone / he hath them following him: he muſt vnderſtād / that becawſe ether the archbiſhop carieth their voices vnderunder his girdell / or yf they vſe the freedome which is meet / yet the approbacion dependeth vponupon the archbiſhops beck: he can no more account them to be diuers / then a mā and his ſhadow following him. And where in his former booke he ſaith / the cheif office off an archbiſhop is to compound contentions, ſchiſmes, &c. here being put to his ſhift / he changeth Pag. 35….his ſpeach / ſaying / it is his principall office to prouide that contentions, &c. be cut of. Where he addeth / or els with the Princes conſent he ſetteth an order in a prouinciall Synode: If there be any Synode / ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand / or controll the ſentence gyuen by him / it is like to be ſore againſt his will. So that the remedy off this miſchief / dependeth onelyonly vponupon the Cyuill power: which if ether yt be ennemy to religion / or entangled with the preſent hereſie (as hath / and may herafter come to paſſe): the churche being withowt remedy muſt languiſh / and pyne away.

He ſaith / this example of the matter caried to Ieruſalem, proueth that eueryevery pariſh within yt ſelf, hath no abſolute autoritie to end controuerſies, but it behoueth to reſort vntounto the cheif church: the contrary wherof appeareth. For in that they both debated the cawſe amongeſt them ſelues / and when they coulde not agree / decreed to ſend yt to Ieruſalem: yt ys ſufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeſte them / and that yt was not wrunge from them by neceſſitie off law / or pretence off higher autoritie: but voluntarily ſent vp to Ieruſalem. Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys ſufficient / that the deciding off controuerſies hung not vppon the mouth off one man / were he neuer ſo ſufficient: but were referred vntounto thaſſemblies of the Auncients / and miniſters of the word. As for his olde ſhiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie, and of examples of the ſcripture, and thapoſtolike church: their folie is opened before. Here he taketh on againſt my vnſkilfulnes in the ſcriptures, which referred that vntounto miniſters Diuiſ. 24. pag. 375.which is ſpoken off all the church. Howbeit if he had cōferred the text / he ſhould hauehave found that thapoſtle ſpeaketh of the Prophe thes / and not of the whole church. For he biddeth that b1. Cor. 11. 29. 31.tvvo or three of the Prophetes ſhould ſpeake, and the other (that is to ſay Prophetes) ſhould gyue iudgement. Which appeareth by the reaſō added / cver. 32.the ſprite off the Prophetes is ſubiect to the Prophetes. Therfore the D. corrupteth the place / and the argument to proue that not one minſter / but many owght to determin of doutfull cauſes / is vntowched.

ddiuiſ 25. pag. 375.Where I preſſed him with this / that eEpheſ. 4. 13.vnitie is fully mainteined by the miniſteries vvhichwhich God hath ordeined▪ he aſketh how oft I will alledge it. Yf it be a fault in me / to alledge one place often vponupon diuers occaſions: what is it in him to alledge one thing ſo continually / vppon the ſame occaſion? If he would hauehave opened his eyes / he ſhould hauehave ſeen that I vſed an argument proper to this place / and not vſed before. For where he pretendeth the archbiſhop was ordeined to kepe vnitie: I ſhew that withowt him / vnitie is perfectly kept: wherunto he anſwereth nothing but as before. But I will ſerue his taſt / and giuegive him change. For the Apoſtle a litle before exhorting to vnitie / bringeth alſo this reaſon: one body, one ſpirit, one hope, one Lord, Eph. 4. 5.one faith, one baptiſme, one God, &c. Wherby appeareth that the apoſtle tooke thes ones, to be ſufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie. And if to hauehave an archbiſhop had bene ſo neceſſary: the apoſtle ſhoulde hauehave fowly forgotten him ſelf / hauing ſo fit a place to ſpeake of him. And as this is aptly oppoſed / againſt the pretended peace by a Pope: ſo is yt likewiſe / againſt that ſurmiſed to be browght by the archbiſhop.

Where I aſk / vvhat buckler vve may hauehave to hould ovvt Diuiſ 26. pag. 376.againſt the Papiſtes, vvhichwhich come vponupon vsus vvith the name of traditions off the apoſtles, if vve admit that there vvere archbiſhops ordeined by them, vvherof the ſcripture maketh no mention: he anſwereth there can be no daunger in them, ſo they be not made neceſſarie to ſaluacion, but ſuch as receiue alteracion. Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he ſaide before / where he bindeth In 2. Tra. according to him ca. 3. pag. 100.vsus to obſeruation of them / as I hauehave ſhewed: yet it ſhall be ſufficient here to let him vnderſtand / that he hath vtterly barred him ſelf from this anſwer / for that he apag. 35….ſaith / this miniſtrie of the Archbiſhop is neceſſarie, yea moſt neceſſarie. Now if it be moſt neceſſarie, for preſeruacion of vnitie off the church: yt is plaine that it is neceſſarie alſo for the ſaluacion of yt. For the next diuiſ. I hauehave ſhewed Diuiſ. 15.how abſurdly the D. defendeth this rouing: where let the reader iudge what difference there is / betwene our archbiſhop and Ieromes biſhop / which differed nothing from a commen miniſter / but that he had the ordeining off miniſters. And here I call once againe vponupon him / to ſhew any godly and learned writer / which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbiſhop: to ſee if he be any happier in this place / then he was before in Cyprians. The Biſhop off Saliſb. bDefenſ. Apol. 4. p. 14. c. 1. 2. d.affirmeth / that the very meaning off Ierome is, off eueryevery biſhop in his dioces: and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place / is compelled to cArti. 4. diu. 15.confeſſe it. The next I leaue to the reader to iudge / by that alledged on both ſides.

dDiuiſ. 29 &c. pag. 477. &c.The D. ſaith / I refuſe Ierome in a matter off ſtorie, yet I denie no part off his ſtorie: wherin he ſeemeth to hauehave loſt all commenſenſe. For who (in whom there is any light off iudgement) would ſay it is matter off ſtorie / vvhether the appointing off one in eueryevery church ouer the reſt, is remedie againſte hereſie or no? I… perteineth to the ſtorie that one was placed ouer the reſt at ſuch tyme / and place as is ſet downe by Ierome / likewiſe that the cawſe that moued them to bring in this couſtome was for preſeruacion off peace: and none off thes is denied. but whether this cawſe were well aſſigned / and whether this ſuppoſed to preſerue peace / baniſhed godly peace: is the queſtion. If this be a matter off ſtorie: ſtorie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off. Yet this he doth as abſurdly charge me with ein 63 di. pag. 411.after / in Iuſtines teſtimonie: where likewiſe I denie no part off his ſtorie. Yf this be to diſcredite men / to ſay / their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further, then yt hath vveight ether off ſcripture, or ſome reaſon grovvnded theroff: then I hauehave diſcredited all writers from the Apoſtels time. For by thes weightes / I hauehave eſteemed the beſt. But I leaue to be cōſidered / what a popiſh tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church: which lifteth the credit of any / be he neuer ſo godly ād learned / aboue that which I hauehave here alledged

Where he ſaith / I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie, in that I aſk whether the church be not in as great daunger, when all is doon at the pleaſure off one, as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other: yt is but a vaine ſhifting hole. For althowgh thes wordes (at the Pleaſure and luſt off one) be for the moſte part ſpoken by way off diſpraiſe / and I willingly confeſſe I vſed them / becawſe this Eccleſiaſticall monarchie / ſeldome or neuer deſerueth better: yet my wordes following declare / that my compariſon is betwene the Eccleſiaſticall gouernement off one / and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically / and many moderatly. For ſuppoſing that both the Archbiſhop / and thoſe which gouerne in commen be godly / and catholike: I affirme that he being one / is ſooner drawen into error then many / ſooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie. In anſwer wherof / and reaſons wherwith this is confirmed / the D. falleth flatly into that / wherewith he chargeth me. For in ſteed that he ſhould hauehave marched many godly / and learned miniſters with one / he matcheth him with the multitude / and commē ſort: and in ſteed off comparing one ruling by law / with many gouerning by the ſame / he compareth him with a lawles companie: and in ſteed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the ſame kinde / he compareth a litle conduite water cloſed vp in lead, with much fenniſh and muddy. Which what leaden anſwers they be / let the reader iudge. For in this path of reaſoning which he walketh in / a man may proue it better to hauehave but one eye / then two: becawſe ſome ſee better with one / then other ſome with both.

His anſwer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace, that we hauehave the true doctrine, and right adminiſtration of Sacramentes, &c. and therfore no contention is to be moued: is as muche to the queſtion as if he had anſwered off the wether. For the queſtion is not of the eſtate off our church / but off all generally: nor whether we hauehave the truth of doctrine / &c. but by what way yt ys beſt kept. His anſwer to the ſimilitude of fire ſtricken by flintes, is more fond. For I ſhewing by yt / that contētion is better then wicked peace: he anſwereth / the fire ſtricken may be in ſuche a time that it may conſume the whole countrey, and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies. As if the fire off the truth which I ſpake off / and ſo called aLuk. 12. 49.off our Sauiour / can conſume any thing but ſtraw / ſtuble / &c. or bPhilip. 1. 18.the Apoſtle were not glad that the truth came forth / allthowgh by contention: or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce / ād errors are like an haircloth / which is the time I ſpake of. And where hauing ſhewed that tharchbiſhop is not fitteſt to kepe the church in poſſeſſion off the truth / I admit by way off diſputation that he vvere the fitteſt: adding that forſomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it, this in commoditie ovvght to driue vsus to ſome other gouernement: he anſwereth / a monarchie being the worſt kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection, ceaſſeth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes. Where firſt / I refer the reader to that before / that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement / an other of the commēt wealth: which is anſwer to all thes ſlanderous ſpeaches here repeted.

Secondly / the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbiſhop keping yt in error: then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie. For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth ſo extreme / wherin there is not ſomthing tending to preſeruacion off it / and conſequently off the church. But in the gouernement off an Archbiſhop fallen from the truth / and in the ſwinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnderunder: there is nothing but deſtruction and ruine / withowt ſtep or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church. Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not ſo great an ennemy vntounto the commen wealth / as a church tyrant vntounto the truth: there is better cawſe to hauehave a Monarchie in the commen wealth / then in the church: as that which can not ſtray ſo far as the other / from the end wherunto it was ordeined. Moreouer / the cawſe why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned / is / for that it is one off thoſe gouernementes / which God hath eſtabliſhed / and allowed by his word. But the Archbiſhoprick (to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God) yt is ſufficient in this conſideration / that yt hath no allowance off the ſame. For therupon foloweth / that althowgh the abuſe off thoſe thinges which God hath approued / can not deſtroie the lawfull vſe off them: yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē / may vponupon experience off euill huſbandrie in the church matters / be worthely reiected. So yt may be ſeen / that althowghe the Anſ. would make one caſe off a Magiſtrate / and archbiſhop: yet there is as far diſtance betwene them / as betwene heauen and earth. Yt reſteth to ſhewe / that the archbiſhopricke hath bene ſo farre from nouriſhing the church peace / that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the ſtringes / and knottes theroff hauehave bene cutte in peaces. Againſte vvhichwhich the Anſ. alledgeth / firſte the teſtymonies off Cyprian, and Ierome. Wherin beſyde that I hauehave ſhewed / that they helpe him not: yt is before declared / that nether Cyprians biſhop did any thing at all / nor Ieromes (the ordination excepted) but by common conſent off all the elders. Not onelyonly becauſe they were at making off the church lawes (vnderunder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the exceſſe off the archbiſhops autoritie): but alſo for that they had felowlike autoritie / in the deciding off controuerſies which roſe in their ſeuerall churches / accordinge vntounto the lawes.

After / where I quoted certeine places oute off the decrees / and other Canons / to proue the contention for thes offices: the Anſ. acknowledgeth nothing there / that carieth any ſounde that waies. Albeit the ſound was cleare enowghe / if he had not bene deafe of that eare. For to what ende both in the Nycene Councell (where the Metropolitanes are firſt hard of / and when they were yet in the cradell) and in many other holden more then 200. yeares after / are there founde ſo many canons / for the acknowledging off the autoritie off one Metropolitane in eueryevery Prouince? For the honor vvhichwhich he ſhoulde hauehave / the name he ſhould be called by / for the place where they ſhould ſytte at their meatinges / for the boundes of their circuite? doo not all thes declare / that there were which were ennemies to that autoritie: and that thoſe which were lyfted vp into yt / had continuall warre one with an other / who ſhould be the firſt / who the greateſt / who of largeſte ſpreade? What meaneth yt alſo that they changed the ſeates ſo often? ſo that the ſecond / or third at one Councel / was fourth at an other / and none at the third: and contrariwiſe he that was none before / was cheif afterward? What alſo that the teritoiries appointed by one Councell / were abbridged by an other / enlarged againe by a third? Ys there any man of ſo ſmale conceite / which doth not hereby vnderſtande / that this lifting vp of one aboue the reſte / was a bone caſte of the deuill to cauſe the miniſters fall owt one with an other: wherby place was made to hereſies of all ſortes / to the vtter vndoing of the church / ād quenching off the goſpell? And if the D. had bene off ſo narrowe vnderſtanding / that vppon ſo often / and ſo diuers decrees in this behalfe / he could not conceiue the contentions / which this did breed: yet expreſſe wordes off hiſtories / which teſtifie generally of the cōtentions for thoſe preeminences / 1. Sozom. 1. ca. 7. li. 2. ca.of Councells (as it may appeare by the canons off the Aphrican councel which I hauehave alledged: of the Tauritan / which ſheweth that the Frēſhe biſhops / ſtroue which church ſhould hauehave the Metropolitāſhip / and how the biſhop of Arles / and Vien̄a fell owt for the ſame) were redy to hauehave informed hī of the trwth in this behalfe. Yea in the diſcourſe of the Councell of Nice / wheron Socr. 1. li. 8. c. Sozom. 1. li. 17. M. Fox. The boke of the 70 Arch. foreign. Eph. 4. 3.the cheife credit off the Metrapolitane dependeth / he might hauehave redd how almoſt all the Biſhops aſſembled there / had quarels one with an other. Which when they were not (as doth appeare) for diuerſitie off iudgement in religion: yt is eaſie to vnderſtand / that they were for the cauſes aboue reherſed. And if he could be ignorante of all thes: yet our ſtories at home / which ſpecifie the combates / and going together by the …ares for thes cauſes / offred vntounto him a plentifull proofe off all thes thinges. Whherby yt appeareth / that this Metropolitaneſhip was the very apple off contentiō / in ſchambling for which / the church was miſerably haled in peaces. Therfore foraſmuche as the Apoſtle ſheweth / that the trwth is kepte by the bonde of vnitie / and yt being moſte manifeſte that thes ſmokie titles off honor / were cawſe off contention: yt followeth that ſo farr they are from that pretended / off being bulwerckes againſte hereſies / and ſchiſmes: that they were the principall hookes that pulled them in.

The Papiſtes ſaie that there maie be a biſhop of all the whole Diuiſ. 31.church / becauſe there may be of a prouince: I / that there can be pag. 380. &c.nether off one / nor other. They would eſtabliſhe the Pope by the Archbiſhop: and I ouerthrowe the Archbiſhop by the Pope. This is great ioining with the Papiſtes. If I woulde take the aduantage off your owne wordes / firſte that apa. 368.there is the ſame reaſon of one ouer a dioceſe, and ouer a Prouince, and a gaine that bPag. 373.forſomuch as one was ouer 12. therfore one maye be ouer a whole prouince: I need not ſeeke for further defenſe / as I hauehave there declared. But againſte this M. Caluin, and M. Nowell be browght: which ſaie there is not the ſame reaſon, off one ouer the whole churche, and ouer a prouince. let yt be ſo. For the one is a more prowder title / then the other: breaketh in further into the the prerogatiue of Chriſte / then the other. And if the church muſte needes be accombred ether with Pope / or Archbiſhop: let vsus graunte ſo muche to the archbiſhop / that to avoide the Popes iron furnaies / wee would be content to grinde in his myll: and to a voide the ſcourge off the one / paſſe by the whip off the other: yet heroff foloweth not / but that yt ys true I hauehave ſet downe. For althowghe they are not in all pointes a like / nor eueryevery reaſon which concludeth the one / concludeth the other: yt hindreth not but ther are certeine reaſons / which conclude bothe a like.

That this pointe off keping peace in the church / is one off thoſe which requireth as well a Pope ouer all the Archbiſhops / as an archbiſhop ouer all the biſhops in a realme: I will goe no further then to the cauſes your ſelfe hauehave aſſigned. For where I ſhewe that vnitie maie be kepte vvithoute an Archbiſhop / yow aſſigne two cauſes / for which in keping vnitie yt is meete to hauehave an Archbiſhop: the one / to call the biſhops together when there is variance: pag. 364.the other / to put them in minde of their dewties. And if an Archbiſhop be neceſſarie for calling of a prouinciall councell / when ther is cauſe off aſſemblie / and when the biſhops are deuided: yt is neceſſarie there be alſo a Pope which maie call the generall Councell / when ther is diuiſion betwene the Archbiſhops / an other cauſe of generall Councell. For whē the churches of one Prouince be deuided from other / and the archbiſhops are at variance: as yow aſke me / ſo I aſke yow / who ſhall aſſemble them together? who ſhall admoniſhe them off their dewties, when they are aſſembled? If you can finde a waie how this maie be doone withowt a Pope: the waie is alſo founde / wherby the church is diſbourdened off the Archbiſhop.

Of the autorities yow alledge / nether affirme that the gouernement of an Arbiſhop ouer a Prouince / is conuenient: onelyonly they affirme that there is more likelihoode in the one / then in the other / and that there were archbiſhops in the churche when ther were no Popes. yf one ſhould conclude that becawſe a man maie touche the moone with his hād / therfore he maie touche the ſon̄e: and yt be ſaid for anſwer / that althowghe yt be poſſible to touche the moone / yet it foloweth not ſo of the ſon̄e: who is there of ſo litle iudgemēt vvhichwhich vvould gather of this anſwer / that one maye touche the moone vvith his hand? And as this proueth that one may ouerthrowe one impoſſible thing by an other / withowt teaching ether off them poſſible: ſo that I hauehave alledged 467. pag. perteining to this matter (off one vvhichwhich againſt him that vvould allegde Iacobs tvvo vviues, to proue he might hauehave as many as he liſte, ſhould anſvver that althovvgh he might hauehave tvvo: yet yt folovveth not that he may hauehave as many as he liſte) proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other / withowt teaching ether off them lawfull: which the D. calling yt a ieſte, anſwereth not. And yet yt ys manifeſt that thes he his reaſons / both here and there: which may in deede worthely be ieſted at: albeit there is no worde in the example I browght / that carieth the countenance off a ieſte.

VntoUnto that I browght of greater neceſſitie off vnitie in the Diuiſ 32. pag. 381.vvhole church / then in ane Prouince: there is nothing anſwered. here he ſaith I am greatly deceiued, conſidering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Conſtantine, and his ſupremacie by Peter. If he liſted he might hauehave vnderſtanded / that diuers Papiſtes which handle that matter off ſupremacie / alledge Conſtantines donacion for his temporalities onelyonly. I ſaid not that the Pope maketh his claime onelyonly by Conſtantine. Althowgh yt may be ſhewed that Sozimus (who yow ſay claimed the ſupremacie ouer all the Tom. 1. Concil. Aphri.church) made his claime not by Peter / nor by any autoritie off ſcripture / but by the Councell off Nice / confirmed by the Emperour Conſtantine. Where he ſaith my ſuppoſition touching one Caeſar ouer all the realmes which hauehave churches, is but ſuppoſed: I meruaile that he is ignorant / that Conſtantine in the ende off his reigne / had the Empire whole in his handes: and that dEuſeb li. 10. cap. 9.all the churches had reſt vnderunder him: eIero. ad Algeſ. 11. quaeſt. Concil. Calcedō Act. 1.that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth, Lord off all the vvorlde. So that if he would hauehave appointed one biſhop ouer all prouinces vnderunder him: the biſhop of his appointement ſhould hauehave had more then double the iuriſdiction / that the Pope euer had / when his kingdome was largeſte: the Pope him ſelfe making no further claime / then ouer the churches which bare the name off Chriſte / as Pighius him ſelfe confeſſeth. Wherupon foloweth that his anſwer often alledged / to put a difference betwene the archbiſhop and Pope (the one taketh it to him ſelfe, the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince) is not worthe a ſtrawe.

Where I ſhew that the ſufficienteſt myniſter, finding enovvghe to doo in one onelyonly congregacion: no man can be hable Diuiſ. 33. pag. 381.to vvelde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince: he anſwereth / that lacke off will, or ſkill of ſome buſie Paſtors, to diſpatch controuerſies which them ſelues be autors off, letteth not but that biſhops, and archbiſh. may be ſufficient for their charges. I make my argument off all / and he anſwereth off ſome: I of the moſte fyt / and ſufficient paſtors / and he off vnfit. If he hauehave any better anſwer / wee will attend after yt: if not / then the archbiſhop is here againe taken by defaulte. And when ether he muſt needes let his Archbiſhop fall to the ground / or els denie that men off greateſt giftes hauehave found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion: being both vnwilling to graunte the one / and aſhamed to denie the other: yt is manifeſt he crept into this corner. When I ſhew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the ſupplie off Archdeacons, Chauncelors, &c. in their abſence: ſo the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls, &c. he anſwereth / that the office off biſhop, and Archbiſhop may be well excuted ſo farre as yt is conuenient for the eſtate of the church: which ys that in queſtion.

Where lykewiſe otherwhere I alledged to this pourpoſe / Diuiſ. 15. Pag 466.that his biſhop, and Archbiſhop hauing their charge aſſigned by him the ſame vvith a commen paſtor, the gouernement onelyonly excepted: are therby bounde to paſtorall preaching, and miniſtring off ſacramentes in all the pariſhes off their iuriſdiction, vvhichwhich is impoſsible: he ſtaggereth to and fro / ſaying the biſhop hath to procure his dioceſe, ys muche as in him lieth: wheras he is charged / for laying hand to more then he can gripe: He addeth / according to the lawes of the churche: he is afraied to ſay off God. that they preach where, and when they ſee yt moſte conuenient: by that rule neuer alſo / and no where: yf in their ſighte yt be conueniēt. That yt foloweth not becauſe the archbiſhop is bound to miniſter the word, and Sacramentes, therfore he muſte doo yt in all the pariſhes of his prouince: which followeth well. For the biſhop appointed by the holy ghoſte / is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed Act. 20. 28.vntounto him / euen with the ſame feading Saincte Paule fedd the Epheſians: that is / with preaching ſo plentifully / that all might vnderſtand the whole will off God. Wheruppon followeth / that his charge is not to feede where / and when he ſeeth good: but to feed / and that to ſufficiencie all the people off his charge: as he that ſhall anſwer for the bloude off all which periſh / for wante of ſufficient inſtructiō by his mouth. And if there be (as he ſaith) the ſame deutie off the Archbiſhop towardes his charge / as off the biſhop towardes his: the ſame foloweth in him. for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vntounto him: by the ſame reaſon he is bounde to preach in one parte / he is bounde in all: if not in all / in none.

Now to returne: where he ſaith / preaching, ordeining myniſters, and ſuppreſſing heryſies is not committed vntounto the Archdeacon, Chauncelor, &c. but ſuch as by rules off the church are permitted them: firſte / yt is his continuall faulte / that he ſhould proue by the lawe off God / he proueth by the lawes of our church / yea and by thoſe which remained off the eſtate which was in poperie. I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches / which hauehave aboliſhed them. And if he wil againſte the reaſons browghte / oppoſe autoritie / and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God / vvander him ſelfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in queſtion: yt is time to ſhuite vp the diſputation / which is mainteined by ſuch groſſe begginge. Secondly how will he proue / that he may ſett ouer his charge vntounto an other: or that yt ys more lawfull / to committ other thinges perteining vntounto his office / then thoſe which he reſerueth vntounto him ſelfe? Or if he may commit yt / whether he may commit yt to tharchdeacon / ſo farre vnderunder degree of the myniſterie off the Archbiſhop / to whome thoſe thinges belong: or to Chauncelors / &c. which hauehave no entrance into the miniſterie by any eccleſiaſticall inſtitution. all which are ſhewed vnlawful / in the booke of diſcipline lately ſet forth. And why may not the Pope cōmmunicate his charge with his Cardinales / as well as the archbiſhop with his Suffraganes / &c? If he can ſhew no word why he may doo it / but it be onelyonly vponupon conſtitution off the church / that he caſteth the ouerplus off his bourdē / vpō the neck of his Chancelour / &c: by the ſame reaſon the vniuerſall biſhop / may diſcharge him ſelf vponupon his deputies.

Where he ſaith / the vniuerſall biſhop can not ordeine miniſters, preach, and ſuppreſſe hereſies ſo well thorowgh all the church, as an archbiſhop in a Prouince: I hauehave ſhewed that albeit one be graunted more impoſſible then the other / yet this alſo is impoſſible: which is ſufficient to proue that in hand. And that is here confeſſed / when he is conſtreyned to lay one part off his dutie vponupon his Suffraganes ſhoulders / an other vponupon his archdeacons / &c. All which if he be able to beare him ſelf: why doth he driue them vntounto others? Let the church at leaſt be diſcharged off thes bourdens. If not: why hath he taken it vponupon him? Yf the Pope deſerue condemnacion / for taking more vponupon him then he is able to doo: the Archbiſhop / and biſhops which beare him companie in this point / cā not be ſeparated from it. So this reaſon browght againſt the Pope / ſtandeth faſt againſt them. Moreouer as the Pope can not diſpatch his matters in the whole churche / ſo well as an Archbiſ. in a prouince: ſo can nether an Archbiſ. in his Prouince / ſo well as a biſhop in his dioces / nor he in his dioces / ſo wel as in a particular cōgregaciō / doo the duties of a biſhop. So that this anſwer no more ſhutteth owt the Pope / then the archbiſhop / or lordly biſhop. But he ſaith / the archbiſhop may hauehave conference with his archdeacons, and Chauncelours, which the Pope can not. He ſeemeth to hauehave forgotten the conference by letters / and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time / ſo particular / and preciſe off churches furtheſte off him / as if he had bene in the boſome In his booke off the practiſe off Praelates.off them: which pointe Maiſter Tindall hathe well ſet forthe. And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbiſhops conference vntounto the good off our churche / which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof. And if conference by mouthe be neceſſary: Rome is not ſo far but as it hathe bene / ſo it maie be had. For beſydes that ſtories aforde vsus diuers examples / off churches which hauehave ſowght the appeaſing off their controuerſies / from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome: the marchandriſe off vnitie / owght to be ſo precious / that we ſhoulde not doubte to ſaile for yt vntounto the Indes / and Garamantes. ſo that if there be ſuche a myſterie in the nomber of one / to kepe vnitie: the diſtance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche: yf for no other cauſe / yet for this / that when the archbiſhops (of whom hangeth forſoothe the churches pea…) are fallen owt: there maie be ſome to accord them. That as the myniſters hauehave lorde biſhops / and they tharchbiſhops: ſo the archbiſhops might hauehave a Pope / in reuerence off whoſe autoritie / they might eaſelyer be conioined. And in deede by ſo much more yt is neceſſary in this reſpect / there ſhould be a Pope ouer the archbiſhop / then ether archbiſ. ouer biſhops / or biſhops ouer miniſters: as the rēte / and diuiſiō in thē being cheif / is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeſte thoſe in lower places. For when ſchiſmes and hereſies light amongeſte them / they ſpred ſo muche further / as they with the arme / and power off their autoritie / are hable to flinge them further then the other. The differences betwene the Pope and the archbiſhop, ſerue but for ſtuffing. for I excepted in my replie / the corruptions off doctrine: and yow owght to hauehave vnderſtanded / that ſuperiority of one biſhop ouer all in the catholike churche / choſen by conſente / doothe not neceſſarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes, of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god, &c. Yow ſhould therfore hauehave made yowr cōpariſon / betwene an vniuerſall Biſhop choſen / and not breaking in violently / meinteining the truthe / and not fighting againſte yt / &c.

VntoUnto that I alledged / that thinges paſſing by voice in Diuiſ. 34. pag. 382.the churche of Alexandria, the diſtinction off biſhop from the reſte off the elders in the church there, might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes conſente, he ſaithe nothing. And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde ſo faine / that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time: yet he ſhall neuer obteine this / that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge: onles he will ſaie / the Apoſtells / and Apoſtolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time / in eueryevery ſingular congregacion. VntoUnto that I ſaide / the vvordes (from Saint Marcke) maie be taken rather excluſiuely, to ſhut ovvte S. Marke: he anſwereth / that none off iudgement will graunte that: where notwithſtanding he that hath anie iudgement doth eaſely vnderſtande / that the wordes hauehave manie times that ſignificaciō; and that they are ſo here: I am cōtent it be tried by the other reaſons propounded. I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that diſtinction, becauſe he making thoſe thinges diuers, vvhichwhich the holy Goſt made one, ſhould make the ſtorie he vvrote ſuſpected. He anſwereth / yt ys certeine thes were no otherwiſe diſtinguiſhed, then the holy goſt appointed them: which I hauehave ſhewed how ſhameles yt ys. Then / that my collection is vngodly, to imagine ſo off the goſpell written by the Euangeliſte. As yff I did not in plaine wordes / deteſte all ſuſpicion of the vntrwthe off that Goſpell: and therfore caſte awaie his falſe ſurmiſe / which might gyue occaſion theroff. He ſaith / therby appeareth at the leaſt that yt was auncient. I denie not: but yt is manifeſte alſo / that ther were other corruptions in ſome places of the churche / as aunciente.

The Anſw. (as his couſtome is) taketh his pleaſure off me / Diuiſ. 35. Pag. 383.becauſe vponupon the wordes off Ierome (this couſtome vvas at Alexandria) I gather that yt was not in other places. As if yt were not manifeſte that Ierome noteth where yt began: and if it had beginning at Alexandria / yt was there when yt was not in other churches. If it had had further paſſage at that time; Ierome ſhould hauehave doone yt iniurie in cōcealing yt. For it would hauehave made much for the credite off that diſtinction. Which I alledging in the next diuiſ. the Anſ. ſaith nothing vntounto. Nether is there anie ſo rude an idiote / which knowethe not that a notable / or vnwonted thinge ſaide off one man / place / or time / is ſpoken emphatically / and excludeth all other. But as the D. will not vnderſtande a generall propoſition / vnles yt hauehave the ſigne (all, or euerie) before yt: ſo he will not vnderſtande that any thinge is appropriat vntounto another / vnles yt hauehave thes wordes onelyonly, alone, &c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his inſultations / ſeing Ierome in ſaying that this couſtome gat grounde by litle, Ierom. vponupon Tite.and lytle, declareth the trwth of my collection. And where he anſwereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieſte / and biſhop / that the biſhop is a prieſte, but not contrariwiſe: he firſt anſwereth not to the argumēt. For this is not to be confounded / when off two thinges one is verified of the other / but thother can not returne / and be verified of his fellow. Secondly / his anſwer is ouerthrowne by his expoſition of the place of Cyprian / which by one prieſt in the churche, vnderſtandeth one onelyonly biſhop in a church. for therby it foloweth / that ether there was but onelyonly one prieſt in the church of Carthage: or els thes wordes biſhop and prieſte, were all one: ſo that whoſoeuer was one / was the other. The nexte diuiſion hath not a worde to purpoſe. for autorities are quoted / to proue that the Apoſtels apointed Biſhops in diuers churches / which no man denieth: yea I hauehave namely alledged yt before

Where I ſhew that forſomuche as the Archdeacon is reproued Diuiſ. 37. pag. 384.of Ierome / for preferring him ſefe before an elder / becauſe the ſcripture maketh him inferior vntounto the elder: by the ſame reaſon / a biſhop is to be reproued / for that he preferreth himſelf before an elder / which the ſcripture maketh his equall: he anſwereth / he ſeeth no ſequell, nor likelihoode. notwithſtanding I truſte there is none that hathe but his commen ſenſe / which dooth not eaſely vnderſtande / that yt is no more lawfull for thoſe which are ordeined equalls by the ſcripture / to lifte them ſelues one aboue an other: then yt is lawfull for him that is apointed to be vnderunder / to exalte him ſelfe aboue his ſuperior. for althowghe he be in greater faulte / which being vnderunder exalteth him ſelfe aboue / then he which magnifieth him ſelfe aboue his equall: yet as the ordinance off God cawſeth. the one to be vnlawfull / ſo yt doothe the other. The ſeconde anſwer is / there maie be degrees amongeſte the miniſters, notwithſtanding all this, for that Ierome ſaithe there was a degree. This is a verie blunt anſwer. I alledge bothe autoritie off the ſcripture / and Ieromes owne reaſon againſte the diſtinction off one biſhop from the reſte: and he anſwereth that the diſtinction is good / for Ierome ſo ſaith. Thirdly / althowgh Ierome confeſſe that a biſhop and an elder be all one by the ſcripture: yet he confeſſeth ſuperioritie off a biſhop before an other elder. but he ſaith they are all one by the ſcripture: and that the biſhop is ſuperior by couſtome. And here he ſtitchethe in a parentheſis. For after he had alledged Ierome / confeſſing that a biſhop and an elder are all one by ſcripture: he addeth (as they be in deede towching the miniſterie). Therby deſirous (as yt ſeemeth) to abuſe his ſymple reader / in making him belieue that Ierome mente / that there was by the ſcripture difference in policie / betweene a biſhop / and an other myniſter: which ouerthroweth the whole intente of Ierome. For he ſheweth that this difference (which the D. in other places termeth / for order, and Policie) betwene a biſhop ād an other miniſter / was not by the ſcripture / but by couſtome: and beganne at Alexandria. And ſeing Ierome putteth a difference / betwene the biſhop ſpecified in S. Paul / and the biſhop in his time: yf the Anſw. ſay that S. Paules biſhop differed frō an other miniſter / as towching order / and policie: I would gladly knowe of him / how Ieromes biſhop and he which is now / differeth from an other miniſter. Yf he anſwer (as he hath doone before) that they differ not as towching the miniſtery, but as towching order and policie: thē he putteth no differēce betwene S. Paules biſhop and Ieromes / which is ouerthrow of all that Ierome ſaith / and he hath flatly affirmed: where he maketh Ieromes pag. 304.biſhop inſtituted by the churche / after the Apoſtels times.

After he bluſheth not to ſaie / that Ierome makethe a difference betwene S. Paules biſhop / and another miniſter. For althowghe he broilethe / and mingleth all vponupon a heape / thincking throwgh confuſion off all / to cawſe his treachery not to be ſeen: yet ain di. 39. pag. 987.after he doth plainly vtter yt / in anſwering Chryſoſtomes wordes / the ſame with Ieromes. But before I come to his reaſons wherby he would proue this: I will ſet downe the wordes off Ierome / wherby his vnhoneſte dealing maie be better perceiued. bIero. ad Euagr.Firſt he ſaith / a miniſtre that is to ſay a biſhop: and a litle after / the Apoſtle dothe plainly teache; that a biſhop and a miniſter are all one. And in an cVponUpon Tite.other place / a Biſhop and a miniſter are the ſame: againe / dAd Oceanum.althovvghe vvith the auncient fathers, biſhops and elders vvere all one. Here appeareth manifeſtly / that Ierome ſaith / a biſhop and an other miniſter be all one with the Apoſtell / and with the auncient times: that he expoundethe one by the other / that he turneth one off them vponupon an other. for as he ſaith that biſhops be miniſters: ſo he affirmeth that myniſters be biſhops.

Nowe of the twoo reaſons / to proue that Ierome put a difference betweene a biſhop / and an elder / this is the firſte: the one is a name of age, and the other of dignitie. which is aſmuch to ſaie / as they differ in deede / becauſe they differ in name: and that the auncientes / and elders off the people off Iſraell / were not their gouernours / becauſe the name aff auncientes is a name off age / and the other of honor: or as if the eldeſt brother were not the heir / becauſe the one is a name of age / the other of honor. Wheras Ieromes purpoſe is plainly to ſhew / that althowgh the names be diuers: yet the thinges are all one. And yf there be anie dignitie ſhut vp in this name biſhop / the miniſters are partakers of it: conſidering that he affirmeth that they be biſhops. And if there be any inferioritie noted / by the name off elder: the biſhop hathe his parte in yt / for ſo muche as he is an elder. Althowghe the trwthe is / that by the worde (dignitie) Ierome mente nothing but an office: and called the name off biſhop / the name off a dignitie / becawſe foreign.the office drawethe dignitie with yt. And becauſe of reuerence which the yonger giuegive to thelder / as alſo for that miniſters and biſhops / were often taken from them whiche were well growne in age: they were called elders. So that althowgh the name (elder) be the name off age: yet yt draweth as muche honor after yt / as the name off biſhop.

His other reaſon is: Ierome ſaithe an elder is conteined in a biſhop: which he bringeth as a proofe to ſhew / that Deacons are therfore vnderunder elders / becauſe elders and biſhops be all one with S. Paul. So that he hath not onelyonly depraued Ieromes minde: but drawne his wordes to a cleane contrarie ſenſe / of that he ment. for euen / by the ſame wordes wherby Ierome woulde proue they be all one he would proue them diuers. And althowghe Ieromes maner of ſpeache here be ſomewhat harde for that purpoſe / conſidering that thinges which are all one / can not properly be ſaide to conteine one another: yet bothe by his plaine wordes in other places / and manifeſt ſuite off his diſputation / he made his meaning ſo well knowne / that no man (onles willing) coulde ſtumble at his phraſe. And if the D. will thus hunt at ſyllables: yet this ſpeache off Ieromes is ſo farre from helpinge him / that yt dooth vtterly ouerthrow all his houlde he ſnatcheth at. For where he vponupon thes wordes in a biſhop is conteined an elder, would conclude In Epiſc. Preſbyter continetur.that eueryevery biſhop is a miniſter, but not eueryevery miniſter a biſhop: all men ſee that in taking Ierome by the lips withowte conſidering his meaning / the contrary off that the D. gathereth / doth folowe: that eueryevery miniſter is a biſhop / but not eueryevery biſhop a miniſter. For that which is conteined vnderunder an other / is more particuler / and les then that vvhichwhich dothe conteine: as becauſe the kinge is conteined in the magiſtrate / therfore euerie Kinge is a magiſtrate / but not euerye magiſtrate a Kinge.

And albeit yt be no meruaile / althowghe he which ſtriueth with the trwth / ſhoulde be ſtricken with ſuche a guiddines off ſpirite / that he ſhoulde not be hable to diſcerne / not onelyonly betwene the morning / and noone daies / but not between noone daies and midnight: yet becauſe the ſmattering in logick which this booke maketh ſhew of / might be ſo much as not to be ſo groſſely abvſed: in caſting with my ſelfe wherfore he ſhoulde alledge this / in the ende yt came to my minde / that by thes wordes (the elder is conteined in the biſhop) he woulde hauehave vnderſtanded / that the elder is conteined vnderunder the biſhops gouernement. If he meane ſo / there is as great ouerſight in his grammer / as before in logicke: ogicke: conſidering that the toung (as I ſuppoſe will bare no ſuch ſenſe / certeine ys that the autor will not ſuffer yt. For he aſſigneth as reaſon why thapoſtle did not ſpeake of the elder / for that an elder is conteined in the biſhop: and therfore ſpeaking of thone / he needed not to ſpeake of thother. Wheras if he ſhould meane / that he would not ſpeake of an elder / becauſe he was in the gouernement off the biſhop / to order as he thowght good yt had bene a witles ſaying / vnworthy of Ierome (conſidering that thapoſtle ſpeaketh of a deacon which is vnderunder a biſhop). Which ſhall be anſwer to his like dealing with Chryſoſtome. That Ierome ſpeaketh of an archdeacon in that place / I hauehave before declared.

But the D. aſketh / why I went about to deface Ierome, if he Diuiſ 38. pag. 385.nether make for our ether biſhop, or archbiſhop? for that there coulde be no other cauſe but this. I hauehave ſhewed that I ſaued him his due / and conuenient honor: the cauſe why I gaue the reader warning / to trie him by the rule off the worde off God / was becauſe he ſeemeth in ſome places to alowe that diſtinction off biſhop from an elder / which is diuers from the inſtitution off the Apoſtell. After he ſetteth downe his places oftén before repeted / and aſketh whether I thincke thoſe mēte of euerie paſtor in his pariſhe. I hauehave ſhewed how althowghe vponupon occaſions before recited / there were not in eueryevery congregacion at that time a biſhop: yet there were in diuers. he ſaith further / that the paſtor in eueryevery congregation from the beginning, had his autoritie ouer his flocke withowte anie ſuche conſtitution. I graunte he had his antoritie / but not ſo ſoueraigne / as after he obteined by this euill cuſtome: conſidering that he had an equall parte of gouernement / with thoſe ioined with him in the adminiſtracion off the churche. And this althowghe yt be debated betwene vsus: yet the D. frameth his anſwer as thowghe there were no ſuche thinge. For albeit for the moſte parte there were no moe paſtors thē one in a pariſhe: yet there were moe elders. And albeit Ier. ſpeake of thoſe elders which had the miniſterie of the word: yet …at excludeth not thoſe / which were onelyonly for gouernement.

Where he ſaith moreouer / the care of the whole flock was committed vntounto him I ſee not how he can conclude therof / that the biſhop was ouer a whole dioceſe ſuche as ours. yt might rather be concluded / that he had charge off one onelyonly congregation: conſidering that althowghe him ſelfe alone were thowght hable to care for one congregacion: yet there is none which would thinck him ſelf alone / able to care for a whole dioces. And beſide that the churches ſhould be in miſerable caſe / if none ſhould care for thē but eueryevery biſhop in his dioces: let the D. ſtretch owt the biſhops iuriſdiction as far as he can / yet I hauehave ſhewed owt off the Emperours letters to the biſhop of Alexandria / that the elders off the ſame church where he abode / had aioynt care with him ouer all. Which is alſo confirmed by the teſtimonie the Anſ. hath alledged owt off M. Fox: where not the biſhop onelyonly / but his church pag. 331.alſo / is ſaied to hauehave the ouerſight off the precinctes which perteined vntounto him. And Ierome him ſelf / ſhewing that the elders vponupon Tit. 1. cap.ovvght to gouerne in commen vvith the biſhop, can not be thowght to giuegive vntounto the biſhop the whole care of the church / as peculiar vntounto him alone: onles a man will make him contrary to him ſelf. For if they hauehave the gouernement in cōmen with him: they hauehave the care in cōmen / for ſomuch as there can be no gouernement withowt care. So that where Ierome ſaith / the care off the whole churche was cōmitted vntounto one: yt muſt be vnderſtanded ſo / as yt may be leuell with his other ſaying: eſpecially whē he ſaith / that a biſhop differed from his elder, onelyonly in ordinaciō.

Which may appeare by the practiſe off the churches / about the time wherin Ierome wrote. aConcil. Carth. 4. ca. 23.For it was ordeined that the biſhop ſhould not iudge off any matter, but in preſence off his clergie: if othervviſe, his ſentence ſhould be voide. Wherby appeareth / that an other b3. Conc. carth. c. 8canon permitting the iudgement off ſubdeacons, and other inferior orders vntounto the biſhop alone, muſt be vnderſtanded / alone withowt other biſhops / not withowt other aſſiſtance. Which is alſo cleare / conſidering that the Councell oppoſeth the deciſion off their cawſes / vntounto that off elders and deacons: which was to be doon by ſix and three biſhops / beſide the biſhop off whom they were accuſed. This gouernement in commē appeareth alſo / in that cConcil. carth. 3. ca. 25.vvhen one off the clerckes vvould goe ether to the vvidovves, or virgines, he muſt hauehave as vvell the leaue off the elder, as off the biſhop. Likewiſe / that it dConcil. carth. 4. ca. 37.was ordeined / that the deacon ſhould acknovvledge him ſelf, as vvell the miniſter vntounto the elder, as to the biſhop. Here it is alſo to be obſerued / what that ordinacion was / wherin onelyonly / the biſhop differed from the elder: how poore a thing. For beſide that it can not be vnderſtanded off the election / which was commen to him with the people / and the elderſhip: yt was eConcil. carth. 4. ca. 2. 3.decreed that vvhen there vvas a biſhop to be ordeined, tvvo biſhops ſhould hould the booke ouer his heade, one other biſhop ſhould pronounce the bleſſing, ād the reſt of the biſhops vvith thelders preſent, ſhould all lay on their handes. So that ether there was an other order at Rome / thē is here appointed; or els the biſhops preeminence was onelyonly to pronounce the bleſſing / and hould the booke / the elder hauing as good right to lay on his handes / as he. Where he ſaith / his place againſt the Luciferanes, with an other owt off his epiſtle, is more cleare: he bringeth no reaſon at all / nether are there any wordes to enforce that. Onles by church one vnderſtand dioces, or Prouince ſuch as ours / which I hauehave ſhewed to be far from the vſe of thoſe times: or onles we graunt that there can be no ſchiſmes / nor hereſies in a particular congregacion / wherof there is to good experience: or that yt is impoſſible there ſhould be many elders in one church / which I hauehave declared / and ſhall (God willing) declare further to be vntrue: I ſaie onles thes proue an archbiſhop / or a lorde biſhop: there is nothing in thoſe wordes off Ierome. And yet the D. that he may helpe his weake reaſons with ſtronge wordes / muſte vppon thes conclude yt impoſsible, to expounde Ieromes wordes otherwiſe, then off biſhop, or archbiſhop ſuch as ours.

Where he concludeth vponupon that the elders choſe one amongeſte them whom they made biſhop, as the captaine is choſen of the the ſoldiars, that therfore the biſhop was ouer diuers congregations: there is no likelyhood off reaſon. And where to giuegive yt ſome / he threapeth twoo thinges at my hande / the one that this worde elder, ſignifieth onelyonly a miniſter off the worde, thother that eueryevery miniſter of the worde had his ſeuerall flocke: he doothe but dalie. For he knoweth well that I hould that the worde elder / reacheth to ſuch as gouerne onelyonly: and that there were in diuers congregations more then one / which preached the word of God. Where he ſaith / thoſe which I call obſcure villages, were litle cyties, ſuche as with vsus, Ely, or Peterborowgh: I leue it to the reader to iudge / how muche I hauehave therin ſquared from Eraſmus Frigida oppidula/ who calleth them peeuiſh litle Tovvnes. Where he ſaith / he callethe them baſe cities: I am contente the reader take which he liketh beſte. For bothe in proper ſpeache can not be trew: for to cal a towne / and a litle towne / and a peuiſhe lytle towne / a citie: is not for any thinge I know / wonted. Howbeit I will not here ſtriue: yt is ſufficient that I hauehave ſhewed / that there were biſhops in other places which were no cities. And euen in this the D. letteth fall the Popes decree / which he defendeth in an other place: which forbiddeth as well to place biſhops in baſe / and ſmall cities, as in vplandiſhe townes.

And albeit the D. be not hable by thes wordes of Ierome / nor by any other which he hathe browght / to proue that the biſhop had any further reache / then vntounto one onelyonly churche: yet (forſomuche as yt is not here queſtion off the victorie / but off trwth: nor what the Anſ. is hable to proue / but what maye be proued) I will not denie but in Ieromes times / the biſhops vponupon occaſions before off me alledged / had enlarged their boundes in ſuche ſorte / that there were certen congregacions which belonged to their ouerſight / and wherof they were called biſhops. But I appele firſt to the inſtitution off God / and vſe of the purer times after the Apoſtles: and then I anſwer / that a dioces was not the twentith part of that which they hauehave now. As appeareth by that alledged before owt of the Councels / and by that Ierome ſaith / that their elders vnderunder them gouerned in commen vvith them: which they coulde not hauehave doon onles they being hard by / had made one bodie with them. For nether could the biſhop doo any thing in his congregation / withowt the elders: nor they in theirs / withowt him / but they made one Senate amongeſt them. The practiſe wherof is yet to be ſeen in certein reformed churches▪ where the elders off certein ſmall pariſhes round abowt / make one bodie off Senate with the elders off the principall towne / meeting together once at the leaſt eueryevery week. Sauing that they hauehave altogether aboliſhed that euill couſtome / which wrong the name of biſhop from all the reſt vntounto one / and graunted the ordinacion to him alone: there being one amongeſt them which hath onelyonly this aboue the reſt / when they aſſemble together to propound matters / gather the voices / giuethe exhortations / and that alſo for a time / and not during his miniſterie. I hauehave ſhewed that the argument / wherwith the Anſ. would off a biſhop conclude an archbiſhop / and off one ouer a dioces one ouer a whole Prouince is too bad: and it is not here to be repeted. This place requireth to ſhew / that albeit the Metropolitan was now receiued in the Eaſt partes: yet ether he was not in the moſt partes off the weaſt / where Ierom was: or Ierome did not acknowledge him. Wherin I will firſt propound my argumentes / and after anſwer to his obiections.

And firſte euen with the ſelfe ſame places he would proue tharchbiſhop / is he ouerturned: as of that againſte the Lucifer. For if it be certein (which I hauehave ſhewed) that Ierome ſpeaketh off the autoritie that eueryevery biſhop hath in his precincte / and plaine by Ieromes wordes / that the autoritie he ſpeaketh off there / is ſuche as not onelyonly hath no ſuperior / but no mate: yt muſte folow / that aboue the biſhop which Ierome propoundeth / there can be no archbiſhop. Againe where he affirmeth that the biſhop, ad Euag.elder and deacon vnderunder the goſpell are in the ſame place, that Aron his ſonnes, and the Leuites were vnderunder the law: yt maie be concluded that foraſmuch as euerie biſhop in his charge / hathe the ſame autoritie Aaron had / and yt is certeine that there was no eccleſiaſticall autoritie ouer Aaron: therfore by Ierome there owght to be none aboue the biſhop in eueryevery churche. Moreouer ibid.vponupon that he ſaith / that all biſhops ſuccede vntounto the Apoſtels / yt maie be reaſoned / forſomuch as the biſhops hauehave the places off the Apoſtels in their ſeuerall churches / and it certeine that the Apoſtels had no dominion one ouer an other / but equall autoritie▪ as bothe hath bene / and ſhall be (God willing further ſhewed): that biſhops owght not to hauehave anie biſhop to whom they owght to be ſubiecte.Ierom ad Ruſticū monachum.

Beſide this / ſpeaking off the orders in the churche in his times / he reckenethe vp deacons, archdeacons, elders, archelders, and biſhops. If there had bene any Archbiſhops where hē was / or he had alowed of anie: there coulde neuer hauehave bene ſo fit a place to hauehave ſpoken off him / conſidering that his purpoſe was / to ſhew thoſe degrees which were. Seing therefore he maketh no mention off him: yt is apparant that there was none / or that he alowed off none. Moreouer he putteth this difference betwene Tom. 2. ad Marcell. aduerſus Montaniſtas.the Montaniſtes / and the Catholikes: that Catholikes had their biſhops as the ſucceſſors off thapoſtels, gyuing vntounto them the firſte place: but the montaniſte heretikes had in the firſte and cheifeſt place Patriarches, in the ſeconde certeine vvhichwhich they called Cenones, ſo that the Biſhop with them / occupied but the thirde. Now if the biſhop was the higheſte degree in the catholike churche / and if to hauehave a Patriarche (which the D. ſaith is all one with a Metropolitane, and Archbiſhop) ouer the biſhop / was in Ieromes iudgement worthie off this reproche: I leaue yt to the readers iudgement / what was Ieromes opinion off the office off an Archbiſhop: and whether the ſame blot which he marked in the rowte off Montaniſtes / be not in our churche / where there is aboue the biſhop bothe a Patriarche off Englande / and a Patriarche off all Englande. But becauſe the D. will not ſuffer him ſelfe to be bounde with any cordes but off autoritie: I will annexe his autoritie / off whom he would ſeeme to hauehave borowed the greateſt pillor off the Archbiſhop. Muſculus therfore after he had alledged the ſentence off Ierome to Euagr. off equalitie off the Biſhop off Rome / and Eugubium / &c. concludeth thus: Ierome Muſcul. de poteſtate miniſtror.vvhen he vvrote that, did not thincke off the povver off the patriarches, metropolitanes, and primacie off the biſhop off Rome: but eſteemed that vntounto eueryevery biſhop, did belonge the ſame care, and povver in his ovne church.

Nowe to the Anſ. ſhiftes. The firſt is owte off Ierome to Ruſticus / that eueryevery eccleſiaſticall order is ſubiecte vntounto her gouernours: wheroff I would gladly knowe what he concludeth. If an Archbiſhop: there is no apparance. And the Anſ. being ſo bountifull in tranſlating / hathe here cut off the ſentence in the m…ddle: for what pourpoſe / let other iudge. my anſwer is therfore / that he muſt proue by Ierome that there was an archbiſhop / or that Ierome alowed off one: before the ſentence off Ierome can profite the Archbiſhop. His ſeconde is / that the teſtimonie off Ierome touching the equalitie off the biſhops, dooth not hurte the autoritie off the Archbiſhop: conſidering that it is not denied but that eueryevery biſhop, and miniſter are equall as towching the miniſterie, but not in order, and policie. which diſtinction althowghe I hauehave confuted / and ſhewed In 8. Tra. c. 1. di. 21.alſo immediatly before / that it is cleane againſte the minde off Ierome: yet here yt is to be obſerued / that as his argument owte off the place againſte the Luciferanes for the Archbiſhop / ys borowed of the Papiſtes: ſo this ſhifte is Hardinges / wherby he would auoide the force off the biſhops anſwer. Harding ſaith that tovvching honor, dignitie, and povver off biſhoply order and office, and off priſthood, as good, and as greate a biſhop in Apol. 2: parte. ca. 3. diuiſ. 5.that reſpecte is the one, as the other: and the biſhops off thes litle tovvnes, hauehave as greate a merite in regarde off any their vertues, and as great povver concerning the order off prieſthood as the biſhop off Rome, &c. Yet tovvching povver and autoritie off regiment, the Patriarches off Conſtantinople, &c. be aboue the biſhops off other dioceſes. The biſhop to this ſhifte anſwereth with Eraſmus / who ſaith that Ierome ſeemeth to matche all biſhops together, as if they vvere all equally the Apoſtells In his ſcholia vponupon that epiſtle.ſucceſſors. And further alledgeth an other place of Eraſmus: where owte off that place off Ierome he affirmeth plainlie / that the biſhop off Rome is aboue other biſhops, onelyonly by riches. If by riches onelyonly: then not by gouernement / as Harding and the Anſ. affirme. And where Harding vnderunder this word merite / woulde hide him ſelf as doth the Anſ. the biſhop anſwereth / by merite is mente vvithovvt all queſtion preeminence: which he D. alledgeth / is vſed off Harding againſte the biſhop: ſo yt ys Latomus (an other Papiſtes) ſhifte againſte Bucer. vntounto whom Bucer anſwereth: the Biſhops vvere in euerie reſpecte at the firſte, equall one vvith an other: as is before alledged.

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 24 · Section 2 (2 of 3)