A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 24 (2 of 3)

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 24 (2 of 3)

p. CCCCXLIAgaine wheras he graunteth that our Sauiour Chriſt hath gone throwgh with the doctrine: I would aſk off him why in that point he hath made ſo cleane worck? Whatſoeuer he anſwer here / and what cawſes ſoeuer he aſſigne: he can not deny but one cawſe is / the blindnes of men to ſee / and their peruerſnes of iudgement in thinges perteining to the kingdom off heauen. Which if it be true: then I would gladly know off him / how they come to be ſo egleeyed / in the matter off diſcipline / and gouernemēt / which are ſuch buſſardes in the ſight off the doctrine? and how their eyes be opened here / which were ſhut there? As if we were in leſſe perill off error / in inuenting the Diſcipline off the church: then we ſhould hauehave bene in deuiſing the doctrine. or as thowgh it were an eaſier matter / to finde a rule wherby the whole church ioyntly, then wherby eueryevery one in his ſeuerall / might be directed.

And if part of this gouernemēt / and order being propounded p. CCCCXLII/ part alſo is left owt: why rather were not the greater offices / and off more weight expreſſed / leauing the ſmaller to the ſtamp off mans head? for who knoweth not but it is harder / to inſtitute a miniſterie for the gouernement off a whole prouince / then for a companie cōpriſed within the territoire of a furlong? to inſtitute a miniſterie for gouernment / and commandement of both people / and Biſhops too / then for the people onelyonly? So that off the twoo vertues required in all ſufficient diſpenſation / faithfulnes / and wiſdome / and which were both moſt fully in our S. Chriſt: by the Anſ. account / there was nether. For in that he is made to hauehave deſcribed ſome part off the gouernement / and not all: he is argued of vnfaithfulnes. in that he is made to hauehave propounded the les / and eaſier / leauing owt greater / and more difficult: his wiſdome is reproched.

Nether may the D. thinck here to eſcape / with the diſtinction in 4. diu. off this chap.off externall thinges variable by circumſtances / which els where he alledgeth. For firſt I hauehave ſhewed that yt is moſt vntrue / that all externall thinges be variable. Thē he muſt remēber / that he making his Archbiſhops office to begin in the Apoſtles tymes / hath drawen owt his continuance vntounto this tyme: all which he hath (as he yet doth) accounted off him as a head piller of the church off God. Now if he be ſuch a profitable officer / both in the pureſt tyme off the church / and the corrupt, both in perſequution / and peace / vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate / and vnderunder a Tyrāt: yt is cleare that this ys an office not variable by circumſtance off times / but which our Sauiour Chriſt / and his Apoſtles might hauehave aſwell eſtabliſhed in perpetuitie / as he did any off thoſe vnchangeable miniſteries / Biſhops / Deacons / &c.

In calling yt a ſeruile tie, to hauehave the whole gouernement at the preſcript off Gods word: he forgetteth that the greateſt libertie / and freedom off Chriſtians is / to ſerue the Lord according to his reuealed will / and in all thinges to hang vppon his mouth. But that he addeth (yt ys to be tied vntounto the lettre, as in the law) fyrſt is Papiſticall / and Anabaptiſticall: proceeding from a groſſe ouerſight / and want of vnderſtanding off the Apoſtles meaning / whē he ſpeaketh of the lettre of the law. For wheras the Apoſtle ſetteth agaynſt the lettre of the law / that is to ſay / the bare cōmaūdemēt p. CCCCXLIIIRom. 7. 6Rom 7:6doo this, &c. the worcking off the ſpirit gyuen by promeſſe / wherby the law in part is obteined off vsus / and made healthfull which otherwiſe bringeth death: the Anſw. with the Papiſtes / and Anabaptiſtes / oppoſeth the lettre vntounto that not writtē / nor commaunded in ſcripture. When in that ſenſe which he taketh lettre (if there were any ſuch) we are as ſtreightly / and preciſely bound vntounto the lettre / as euer were the Iewes.

The examples brought as exceptions / againſt the certein / and commaunded myniſterie / are ſuch for the moſt part / as might ſeem to hauehave bene brought / to ſet the D. cawſe in the mockerie and lawghter of all men. For yt is well knowen / that the name off a Scribe: was no name off any certein order, and particular kinde off miniſterie: but a generall name gyuen vntounto the ſkilfull in the law of God. For although we read of ſome to whom yt ys gyuen / which beſide the ordinary function wrote ſomething: yet yt may be eaſely 1. Chron. 24. 6.1 Chr 24:6ſhewed / that they had that name not off writing / but rather becawſe they were expert in the law off God written. Which as yt may be proued by diuers autorities off the ſcripture: ſo yt doth by Math. 13. 52.Matt 13:52the autoritie off our Sauiour Chriſt manifeſtly appeare. And when our Sauiour ſpeaking off the tymes of the goſpell / ſaith he will ſend Scribes, and yet neuer heard tell off that there was any certein order / or particular function off Scribes vnderunder the goſpell: Math. 23. 34.Matt 23:34yt ys cleare that vnderunder title off Scribe / there was neuer vnderſtanded any ſeuerall degree off miniſterie. The ſame is to be aſwered vntounto the name of Doctor of law: that yt was a generall name where with they were named / which were learned / or taken for learned in the law of God. Which may appeare for that whom S. Math. calleth a a lawier / or Doctor of the law / S. Marck 22. 35. 12. 28.calleth a Scribe.

To change the Capitain off the Temple into an Eccleſiaſticall officer, needeth a very ſtrong exorciſme. The Temple of Ieruſalem being the ſtrongeſt place in the whole citie / and by reaſon off the height commaunding the whole cytie round about / was by all likelihood taken of the Romans to be their fort / or Cytadell. Conſidering that Herod had alſo builded a fort there / called Antonia: where Calu. vp 4. Act.they placing their garriſons / did the eaſelier / and with greater p. CCCCXLIIIIſecuritie / holde the Iewes in that bondage / which they ſought at eueryevery occaſion to ſhake off. Herunto leade the prophane mindes of the Romans / which beſide the ſafetie they ſowght that waies / tooke pleaſure alſo in prophaning the temple off the Lord: ad alſo the practiſe off our daies / which may ſerue for confirmacion herof. But howſoeuer the matter be / this appeareth plainly / that that office was not eccleſiaſticall / but both a cyuill / and warlike function. For when S. Iohn beſide the ſeruantes off the Scribes / 28. Iohn 3John 3and high prieſtes / maketh mention off a band off men: yt may appeare that as the ſeruantes / and miniſters belonged vntounto the high Prieſtes / and Scribes: ſo the band belonged vntounto thoſe Capitaines off the temple / and that they were there as thoſe which had the charge off the band.

The ſame may yet appeare further / by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apoſtles / put them in priſon: after they 4. Act. 1.Acts 1came owt they confirmed them ſelues againſt their threates / by that the fame thing was happened vntounto them / which was propheceyed of by Dauid / and wheroff our Sauiour had experience: in that both Iewes / and Gentils / and both powers cyuill / and eccleſiaſticall roſe vp againſt him. Wherby it is cleare / they had regard to the owtrage which they ſuffred / both off the Prieſtes / and Scribes Iewes: and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill. As for the cheif of the Sinagoge: they are the ſame which be called Elders / and Ancients off the church in reformed churches / wheroff in eueryevery Synagoge / and aſſemblie off the Iewes / there was ſome nombre (as ſhall in place appeare) called cheif / not for that they had ouer the myniſters / but becawſe they had the gouernement off the people. Whether the Seniors off the people, were before the reſtoring off the captiuitie of Babylon, ſhall appeare in place not to be much materiall.

Yt is a certein reaſon which is drawen from the figures / to Diuiſ. 11. &c. pag. 305. &c. 7. Act 44 Heb. 8. 5.Heb 8:5the thinges figured / in this ſort. for if they were not like vntounto them they ſhadow forth: they ſhould be no figures. I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck / to the partes of the church: but compare generally the building off the one / with the other. Which point alſo. S. Stephen / and the Apoſtle to the Hebrues doo likewiſe preſſe. Therfore thalledging off Caluin / againſt thapplication p. CCCCXLVoff eueryevery part thereof vntounto the church / is ydle. The exceptions are to ſmall pourpoſe. For when I aſk vvhat: I deny not but ſome thinges might hauehave bene left. for if he had would he might hauehave knowen / that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church / and approched vntounto men by knowledge of him ſelff: ſo he did more preciſely / and particularly ſet forth all thinges / perteining to the church / and gouernement therof: and that therfore vnderunder the goſpell / wherin he hath opened the threaſures of knowledge / yt muſt follow that he left thinges more cleare / and certein then before. Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions.

For pinnes, and nailes: I would aſk him how he can make a cofer without them / eſpecially for the water. And therfore if he had prepared bordes / &c. and not ſet them together / I thinck he had not obeied the voice of God. and it is aſmuch as if he ſhould ſay / that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande / which is bidden to ſew. Whether the windowes were off glaſſe, or Christall made not to pourpoſe: ſo that they gaue a cleare light (which the word Moſes vſeth ſignified) it was enough. Howſoeuer yow were miſled by certein expoſitours / the couer mentioned Gen. 8. Gen. 6. cap. 16.Gen 6is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark / where the Lord alſo preſcribeth yt ſhould be a cubit aboue the Ark: very fit to ſhut the waters / that they ſhould not fall continually vponupon the Ark. The ouerſeer, and maiſter off this work, coulde be no other then Noa: at whoſe preſcript yt was to be doon / and which was to anſwer if any thing had bene doon otherwiſe then the commaundement. The Rauen, and doue ſent forth, were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark: and yet as meat / and drink they are commaunded him / forſomuch as they perteined to preſeruation off his life / which the Lord had gyuen him in charge.

That out of Pellicane, and againe and againe out off Caluin, are ſuch as graunted / conclude not againſt this cawſe. That the learned writers ſay, God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne, that they ſhould hauehave no leyſure to vſe any other: they neuer vſe it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now / then in times paſt / to deuiſe any thing: but it is their buckler which they hold owt againſt the Papiſtes / who by example of that church / would p. CCCCXLVIlode this now with ſuch a multitude off ceremonies. Therfore hē doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie: but rather clean contrary / walketh herin in the Papiſtes ſteppes. Which where they are preſſed / by this ſo diligent preſcript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people: anſwere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people / and becauſe they were but children / and that it were iniurie to the church off Chriſt / to ſhut her vp ſo ſhort as that was. Where he cōcludeth of them / that there was onelyonly expreſſed what ſhould be doon in the worſhip off God, and not in externall policie: firſt there be no ſuch wordes wheruppon he may pull in that (and not in the external policie). And in deed it is not to diſtinguiſh / but to pull in peeces. for what whorſhip off God can there be in the aſſemblies of Chriſtiā mē / withowt the miniſterie of the word / withowt externall policie / withowt adminiſtration of Sacramentes / without praying openly / and with owtward ſound? all vvhichwhich are externall. When Caluin calleth yt ſpirituall worſhip, his meaning is nothingles / then to oppoſe ſpirituall to all externall / doon vvith mouth / and other partee of the body: but he calleth it ſpirituall / by compariſon off the worſhip of God vnderunder the law / which conſiſted in corporall waſhinges / cleanſinges apparell / &c. and this is that which ether abuſeth him: or wherwith he would abuſe other.

And although no ſingular partes off the Tabernacle / or Temple themſelues ſhould ſet forth vntounto vsus / the externall policie of the churches: yet whē not onelyonly they be deſcribed / but yt is preſcribed how many kinde of officers there ſhould be / and what eueryevery one ſhould doo: that might ſuffiſe to proue / that if he will needes ſeparate the worſhip off God / from thexternall policie: yet as the Lord ſet forth the one / ſo he left nothing vndeſcribed in the other. Towching the alteration made by Salomon, and Dauid in ſorting the Miniſters off the Temple, and other thinges (an other of the Papiſtes reaſons / to proue that they may ordein thinges / beſide the 1. Chron. 24. 19. 2. Chron. 29. 25.1 Chr 24:192 Chr 29:25preſcript off the word): yt is anſwered in the ſame chap. the Anſ. alledgeth / where yt is ſaied / that all that was doon by commaundement of God. And in an other place is ſet forth / that thoſe were inſtituted by commaundement of Dauid / which had commaundement off God / browght by the handes off Gad the ſeer / and p. CCCCXLVIIof Nathan the Prophet. But ſeing the Anſ. vvill not accord vvith me in this point / of appointing thinges vnderunder the law: let him at leaſt beare him ſelf ſpeak in his former booke. God in the ould law, Pag. ….preſcribed vntounto his people perfect, and abſolute lawes, not onelyonly morall, and iudiciall, but ceremoniall: nether was there the leaſt thing to be doon in the church, omitted in the law. Let him ſhew how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth / and 13. diuiſ. I hauehave ſhewed that it is one thing to be conteined / an other to be expreſſed in ſcripture. Therfore if yowr cawſe hauehave no better hould then that: it muſt goe to the ground.

I hauehave ſhewed how this anſwer / of leauing thinges to the order Diuiſ. 14. Pag. 307.off the church, varied by circumſtance, &c. can not ſtand in the Archbiſhops caſe / nor ordinary gouernement of the church. The argument is not off lykes, or payres, but of the ſmaller vntounto the great. And although it ſhould be true / that yow ſay / that the Lord loued the church then aſwell as he doth now: yet the reaſon is ſtill of the les vntounto the great. For yf he did ſo particularly deſcribe the offices / not of Math. 11. 11. 2. Cor. 3.Matt 11:112 Cor 3ſuch excellencie / and vveight as the offices / and myniſteries of the goſpell: yt muſt follow / that he hath much more vſed that dyligence / in particular deſcription of the myniſteries hereof. If the 4. off Iohn, meane that our Sauiour ſhould tell all thinges neceſſary to ſaluation: then the Myniſterie vvith the degrees theroff / being neceſſary / and vvithowt the vvhichwhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any ſaluacion at all / yt is cleare that he hath alſo declared all Rom. 10. 14.Rom 10:14degrees thereoff. That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is ſpoken of the miracles our Sauiour did / not off his doctrine: and is thruſt in by ſtrong handes in this place. The cheif amongeſt the reſt off the Myniſters / I might well with S. Paul / call the pillers: and therfore if the Lord ſhould hauehave made no mention off the Archbiſhops / they keping ſuche a place as they doo: yt is truly ſaide / that the pillers ſhould hauehave bene forgotten. Yf the Magiſtrate were an officer of the church / and not of the commen wealth: there are many places in ſcripture both ould / and new / that deſcribe his office / ād all that perteineth to him at large. Wherof if the Anſ. can bring but one for his Archbiſhop: this controuerſie is at an end. Here be many (we knowes) wherof ſome are not indebate: and p. CCCCXLVIIIthoſe vvhichwhich be / hauehave no cauſes annexed vvith them / vvherby other might come to knowledge off them / as vvell as he. Yt is therfore enough to hauehave mentioned mine anſwer / vvithout ſtaying in confutation of all thoſe thinges / vvhichwhich he at all aduentures throweth owt / to make vp an anſwer.

He ſaith it is daungerous to ſay, that the miniſteries owght not to be Diuiſ. 15. pag 307.reteined, withowt which the church is fully builded: becawſe the Magiſtrate is therby ſhut forth, as well as the Archbiſhop. Our queſtiō is / what eccleſiaſticall miniſteries are ſufficient: the mention therfore off the ciuil Magiſtrate / is abſurd. Alſo it is too great ether ouerſight / or peruerſenes / not to vnderſtand that an vniuerſall rule / is not to be racked to eueryevery thing: but is true off thoſe thinges / vvheroff it is gyuen. Beſide that / hereby at vnawares he confeſſeth / that the church may be fully builded, and accompliſhed withowt a Chriſtian Magiſtrate: which is againſt that he ſaith / the magiſtrate is the head of the church. His exception (that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church / by reaſon off good / and bad mingled) firſt is nothing to this queſtion: ſecondly yt is a quarell not againſt me / but S Paul vvhoſe wordes I vſed. Thirdly as the miniſteries off the vvord Epheſ. 4. 13. 1. Timot. 4. 16.Eph 4:13Eph 4:1are ſaide to ſaue / and bring vsus to the kingdome off heauen / becawſe they gyue both entrance / and aduancement therunto / although vve come not to full poſſeſſion off them / ſo long as we being in this life / need them ſtill: ſo they are vvell ſaied / to bring vsus to perfectiō of vnitie / becauſe hauing begun to knit vsus together here / they follow ſtill vvith new increaſes / vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come. As for that there muſt be offices, as well to preſerue, and kepe the perfection off vnitie, as to build yt, and bring it therunto: beſide that for ſhift off anſwer / he is driuen as yt were with one breath / to affirme that he denied before / off the perfection of vnitie: he muſt vnderſtand / that the church is alwaies in building / as long at it is here vponupon earth / and alwaies in knitting. Therfore if thoſe offices be ſufficent to build / and knit: they are perfectly ſufficient. and if tharchbiſhops office be to kepe the church builded / and knit yt is manifeſt vve may ſpare him here / and that his ſeruice muſt then begin / when all other miniſtries take end. The next diuiſ hath for anſwer (according to the D. couſtome) onelyonly that p. CCCCXLIXwhich I preuēting anſwered afterwad: ſauing that he addeth as an exceptiō / that there be Apoſtles which there reckened / are notwithſtanding by vsus ſhut owt from the preſent eſtate off this church. as yf he vnderſtood not that in the founding of the church / thes may be neceſſarie / which afterward are not: which alſo being intreated off in an other place / needeth not here to be repeated.

Yt is Calu. which reaſoneth of the place of the Epheſiās / that Diuiſ. 17. pag. 308.forſomuch as the Apoſtle ſaith / that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope: therfore there owght to be no Pope. and how ſlenderly ſoeuer he ſeemeth to the Anſ. to hauehave reaſoned: yet ſhall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs againſt it / cōming afterward to be diſcuſſed / that yt is weighty. But where he ſaith / albeit the argumēt be good againſt the Pope, yet yt ys not ſo againſt the archbiſhop: onles he can exempt hym by miracle / or teach vsus ſome other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off / the reaſon includeth him as well as the Pope. For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church / becawſe S. Paul made no mention off it in the miniſteries requiſite for the building theroff there being like wiſe no mention off the office off an Archbiſhop / yt muſt theruppon follow / that tharchbiſhop alſo is vnprofitable. yf there be the ſame cawſe: there muſt follow the ſame effect. The reaſon added / off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbiſhop doth not, claiming thinges which tharchbiſhop claimeth not, &c. hath no place at all. for the queſtion is not off the abuſe / and tyrannie off the Pope: but whether as it is vnprofitable that one ſhould gouerne all the churches in the world / ſo yt be alſo that he ſhould gouerne all in a whole prouince. And by the D. anſwer the office off Paſtors ſhould be vnlawfull / if they chalenge vntounto them ſelues thinges vnlawfull: and the Popes office good / and lawfull / if he bearing rule ouer all churches / would abſteine from thoſe / and ſuch like chalenges which the Anſ. ſetteth downe. The contrary wheroff is true. For as the Paſtors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciſeth it / be made vnlawfull: ſo the vſage of dominion off one ouer all / be yt neuer ſo moderate / and qualified can neuer be lawfull. Laſt of all / the Archbiſhop him ſelf / if he ſhould chalenge thoſe thinges in his prouince / which the Pope p. CCCCLchalengeth ouer the world / ſhould be by this reaſon as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope. Therfore this difference betwene the Archbiſhop / and Pope / being accidentall / and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we hauehave to enquire / is vnſtilfully alledged. Yet it is the hole wherūto the Anſ. is cōpelled diuers times to hauehave his recourſe. That the miniſterie is a matter of ſaluaciō / that tharchbiſhop is a new miniſterie / that it is abſurd here to flie to thexample off the Magiſtrate / where the queſtiō is what Eccleſiaſticall offices are profitable: is before declared.

The Anſ. concluſion off my replie / touching the place to the Epheſ. is euill ſhut vp. For where he ſaith that tharchbiſhoprick Diuiſ. 18. pag. 309.may ſtand, becawſe that place reckening vp onelyonly the miniſteries of the word, that is a miniſterie off order, and policie: how could he forget / that tharchbiſhop medleth with the miniſterie of the word? and therfore it was neceſſarie to be here mentioned / if the Apoſtle had gyuen hym any place in the church. If he will ſay / that he hath not onelyonly the myniſterie off the word / but off order alſo: the anſwer is at hand / that ſo had both the Apoſtles by his owne confeſſion / and all the reſt off thoſe miniſteries / as appeareth afterward. Whether therfore tharchbiſhop be conſidered in his miniſterie of the word / or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement / or as one of the moſt principall miniſteries of the church: ether he hath his place here to the Epheſ. or not a… all. For both all miniſteries off the word (to ſpeak as the D.) ſeparate from gouernement / and order / and all occupied in the word / and gouernement ioyntly / and all principall miniſteries of off the church / are here reckened vp. EueryEvery one then off thes three cawſes being ſufficient / to hauehave made mention of tharchbiſhop: all together put a neceſſitie vponupon the Apoſtle to ſpeake off him / if he had bene worth the ſpeaking off.

Where he thincketh there was no cauſe to ſpeake off him, for that he differeth not from a biſhop in miniſterie off the word, but in order, and gouernement onelyonly, and that therfore yt is no diuers miniſterie from the biſhops office: by the ſame reaſon I may ſay / that S. Paul needed not to hauehave mentioned Paſtors / &c. For the Paſtors preached the word / as the Apoſtles. But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe / make the miniſterie of Apoſtles / and paſtors diuers / that p. CCCCLIthone hath charge off one onelyonly church / thother off a…ry… muſt follow / that the miniſterie off an archbiſhop is diuers from the biſhops / thone watching ouer a whole prouince / thother ouer a dioceſe onelyonly. Yea it is plaine off that ſpoken before off the Archbiſhops new miniſterie / that there are as many / or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a biſhop: then any of thes miniſteries S. Paul reckeneth vp / differ one from an other. His anſwer to the place off the Corinth. conſiſteth in that he would proue / that the diuiſion off offices there, is perfect. Wherin it it eaſie to ſee what extremitie my reply (which he calleth a vaine ſhift) draue him vntounto: and how he could not couer his nakednes here / but with diſcouering an other place as vnſemely as this. For amongeſt his anſwers to the place off the Epheſ. wherby he would proue / that that diuiſion is not perfect / this was one in the latin pamphlet / that to the Corinth. S. Paul ſpeaketh off Apoſtles, Prophetes, and Doctors, leauing owt Euangeliſtes, and Paſtors: and now to auoide my replie to that anſwer / he ſaith / cleane contrarie / that the Apoſtle made there a perfect diuiſiō of offices. But let vsus ſee whether this chaūge be for the better.

Where he ſaith / Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth. then to the Epheſ. he is deceiued. For euen by his owne confeſſion / he ſpeaking there of preaching offices onelyonly / not off all offices off the church / and there being none other preaching offices / but thoſe which he reckeneth vp: yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuiſion. In the place to the Corinth. that there is no perfect diuiſion / although the D. wordes he chaunged / yet his reaſon he vſed ſtandeth ſtill: that the Euangeliſt is not there mentioned, nor Paſtor, which were offices in the church. Beſide that he kepeth in this refutatiō his ould wont: which is to cut the knot / and not to loſe yt. For he bringeth reaſons of his to proue the perfectiō of the diuiſion / withowt anſwering mine. And yet his be ſuch / as are vnwothy anſwer. For in the firſt / beſide that yt is vntrue / that the Apoſtle made a perfect diuiſion of giftes in the church: if he had / yet it followeth not that he made the ſame in offices / eſpecially whē he wil needs ſeparate offices from giftes. The ſecond reaſon (therfore yt is a perfect diuiſion, becauſe there is added firſt, ſecond, third) is as ſimple as the firſt. for thoſe wordes are not put there to note the nōbre of offices p. CCCCLII/ but to declare which is higheſt in degree / and which next / &c. ād if they did: yet I neuer could yet read / that they were notes off a perfect diuiſion. His third (becauſe yt hath moe members then that in the Epheſ….) I think he vnderſtandeth by this tyme what ſtrenght yt hath: if he remember that which I anſwered / that the Apoſtles meaning to the Eph. was / not to deuide the offices of the church in generall / but thoſe onelyonly which handle the word. onles par aduenture he thinck / that he maketh a fuller partition / which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers / then which denideth one into fiue. Martyrs autoritie doth not help him. For he ſaith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly / or how many it hath / which he ſhould hauehave ſaide to help him: but onelyonly that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath / which he doth that reherſeth ſome.

Whether a biſhop be conteined vnderunder a Paſtor / or rather a Diuiſ. 19. Pag. 310.Paſtor vnderunder a biſhop: ſhall not now be the queſtion. But yow are inconſtant in all yowr waies / and hauehave one ſentēce ſtanding / an other ſitting. For albeit I ſhould agree with yow / that a biſhop is a Paſtor: yet yow doo not agree with yowr ſelf. For otherwere in ſtretching owt the Biſhops armes / yow hauehave thes wordes: a biſhop is both ſuperior in office, and giftes vntounto a Paſtor. If he be ſo / he can not be conteined vnderunder him: for that vvhichwhich conteineth pag. 137.an other thing / hath at the leaſt all in it ſelf / which the conteined hath. Againe if I graunt a biſhop conteined vnderunder the Paſtor S. Paul ſpeaketh of: yet I will not graunt that the biſhop yow meane (which hauing ſo many churches to rule / hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a biſhop) is conteined vnderunder S. Paules Paſtor. For ſeing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes biſhop / proued before / and after / not to be of the inſtitutiō of God / but off man: yt can not be / that our kinde of biſhop ſhoulde be comprehended vnderunder S. Paules Paſtor. Wheruppon alſo followeth / that tharchbiſhop which hath a neceſſarie relation to that kinde off biſhop / and can not ſtand withowt him: is not by any meanes conteined vnderunder S. Paules Paſtor. The proofes of yowr diuiſion of biſhops into archbiſhops / and thoſe called by the commen name of biſhops / are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought.

p. CCCCLIIITo proue that the office off an Archbiſhop was in S. Paules tyme / although the name were not / is brought the word Conſubſtantiall▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papiſtes / to foreign.pull in their vnwrittē verities / owght to ſerue the reader for a watch word / that tharbiſhops office needing this phiſick / is ſick off the ſame diſeaſe. And for the word it ſelf / although it be lawful / ād very conuenient / and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vntounto the Arrians to the diſplacing of it: yet yt is not neceſſarie / as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Chriſt / can not be mainteined. For to ſay ſo / were to accuſe the holy writers / S. Iohn eſpecially: which debating that cawſe againſt the heretickes of his time / Cerinthus / Ebion / &c. did neuer vſe it. But what is this vntounto the Archbiſhop? let vsus hauehave but one teſtimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbiſhop / for the infinite teſtimonies off the diuinitie of the ſonne of God: and then this example may help yow. And although the word Conſubſtantiall were not in S. Paules tyme: Yet wordes off the ſame weight were. If yow can ſhew therfore wordes of the ſame valew with Archbiſhop / although yow ſhew not this / yt ſhall be ſufficiēt: if yow can not / then this example maketh againſt yow. Here alſo is further to be obſerued / that this anſwer off the D. off the office of the archbiſhop being in the Apoſtles time / although the name was not / is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuerſall biſhop is mainteined. Diuiſ. 1. art. 4.For this is Hardinges anſwer to the biſhop / that although the name of vniuerſall biſhop / was not at the firſt gyuen to the Pope: yet the autoritie was. After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince / and there ſeeketh couer for the Archbiſhop: aſking whether he ſhall hauehave no autoritie in the church, becawſe he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had ſaied that our Sauiour Chriſt had gyuen princes vntounto his church immediatly after his aſcenſion / as he beareth vsus in hand he gaue archbiſhops: ether they muſt hauehave had autoritie then / or neuer after. So keeping yowr ſimilitude / if our Sauiour gaue Archbiſhops when he aſcended / and in S. Paules time: ether they muſt hauehave had their autoritie then / or neuer after. And the caſe is nothing like. for if there were no Chriſtian Princes in the Apoſtles times / they being needfull for preſeruation p. CCCCLIIIIoff the churches: the cawſe was that it was not in the Apoſtles power / to ordein Chriſtian Princes. But it was in their power to hauehave prouided the churches off Archbiſhops / if they had bene needfull: and therfore they had bene inexcuſable for not appointing them / ſeruing ſo greatly to the building off the church / as we are borne in hand.

Moreouer the compariſon is moſt vnfitly made: ſeing the cyuill magiſtrate is a perpetuall office for all times / perſones / places: wheras by his owne confeſſion / the Archbiſop is temporall / and arbitrarie. Where alſo he aſketh whether the ciuill Magiſtrate ſhall not hauehave the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church, becauſe there ys no expreſſe mention off him in thes two places: I anſwer that the Princes autoritie is eſtabliſhed in other places / ſo that it may floriſh withowt thes. But the Archbiſhoprick / ſeing yt ys an eccleſiaſticall function / ether muſt be planted by one off thes places / or die in the church conſidering that there is no eccleſiaſticall function / which is not here ſet forth. Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together. for how cleaue thes? Some offices inſtituted off God endured for a time, therfore men may deuiſe new offices. Where lieth the ſtrenght of yowr argument? Whether in this that becawſe God inſtituted offices for a time / therfore man may: or in this that God did abrogate certein offices / therfore man may inſtitute? Which ſoeuer yow ſay (as yow muſt needes ſay one): the abſurditie is apparant. for in both the compariſon is made / between the autoritie off God / and thautoritie off man. Betwene whom how great diſtance there is: ſo great difference is there between yowr argument / and a iuſt concluſion. The cleane contrarie is gathered rather. For as we reaſon againſt the Papiſtes / that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies / that men ſhould thruſt in others conſidering that if he would hauehave had ceremonies / he would hauehave taken off his owne: ſo yt may be ſaied / that God did not cut off his owne miniſteries / to make place for others: and that if moe miniſteries off preaching / and gouerning iointly had bene neceſſarie / beſide Doctors / and Paſtors: he would rather hauehave kept his owne / then takē thoſe vvhichwhich men deuiſe.

Here all ſhiftes / and coulors failing him / and not being once Diuiſ. 20. pag 311.able to lift at this reaſon: he hath chaunged my argument. For p. CCCCLVwhere I had ſaied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogiſme: he hath altered yt. But I will offer yt him againe, yf vnderunder Saint Paules Paſtor tharchbiſhop be comprehended, then he is neceſſarie, and commaunded by the vvord off God: but yow ſay he is comprehended: therfore he is commaunded and neceſſarie. Which if it be true: then yow are fallen from yowr diſtinction / of thinges neceſſarie to ſaluacion / and not neceſſarie / off thinges arbitrarie / and commaunded by the word off God. But let vsus ſee now yow hauehave prepared the argument after yowr owne faſhion / and as yow thowght yow could weld yt / how yow deale with yt. Yow ſay firſt this propoſition (Paſtors are neceſſarie at all times) is particular. verily the maſters / by whom this ſhould be iudged / neuer tawght that an indefinite propoſition in a neceſſarie matter / is particular. But becauſe yow like not the forme which I vſed / yow ſhall hauehave it after yowr owne in this ſort. All S. Paules Paſtors are neceſſarie: the Archbiſhop (as yow ſay) is one off S. Paules Paſtors: therfore he is neceſſarie. Here if yow denie the firſt propoſition: yow hauehave the whole councell / and Senate almoſt of learned men againſt yow: affirming that thoſe two / Paſtor / ād Doctor / are amōgeſt the reſt perpetuall offices. And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Paſtor / which S Paul ſpeaketh of: then it muſt be verified off all conteined vnderneath / amongeſt whom yow ſay the Archbiſhop is. Secondly the Archbiſhop being made one off the giftes / which our Sauiour aſcending ſent vntounto his church: if yt were in the power off the church ether to eſtabliſh / or not to eſtabliſh him: yt ſhould be in her power to refuſe the giftes off Chriſt. which if it be abſurd: that alſo muſt be wheroff this followeth. Thirdly if the Archbiſhop be neceſſarie at any time (which muſt needes be if he be comprehended vnderunder S. Paules Paſtor): then goeth to the grownd his cō men refuge / that his office may be inſtituted / or not / at the churches vvill.

Moreouer if he ſay that it is neceſſarie / ād commaunded a… ſome tyme / and not at others: vvhat a miſerable caſe is the churche in / that hath no certein addreſſe owt of the word / vvhen that neceſſitie and commaundement beginneth / and when it endeth: p. CCCCLVIvvhen this office is in ſeaſon / vvhen owt of ſeaſon? Laſtly foraſmuch as S. Paul ſpeaketh of offices thē in the chuch / not of thoſe vvhichwhich came after (as the Anſ. him ſelf is forced to confeſſe) the Archbiſhops office muſt needes hauehave bene in the Apoſtles tyme. Which if it be true: thoſe times being (as the Anſw. hath borne In 2. Tractat.vsus in hand) ſo vnlike ours: the perſons in the church then off ſo different diſpoſitions from thoſe now / the place alſo / the goſpell being thē in the Eaſt partes / where now it is in the Weſt: it muſt needes follow that this monely office off the archbiſhop / which ebbeth and floweth / being fit for the Apoſtles times / is by all likelihood vnfit for ours. His diſtinction vntounto the ſecond propoſition is / that an Archbiſhop in reſpect off the miniſterie off the word, and Sacramētes is neceſſarie alwaies: but not in reſpect of policie, and gouernemēt. Which is aſmuch to ſay / as an archbiſhop vvhen he is an archbiſhop / is alwaies neceſſarie for the church. For when he hath not the owtward gouernement / then by yowr owne rule he is no archbiſhop: then which ſpeach what can be more abſurd? And of this anſwer followeth / that there is a time vvhen the Paſtors hauehave nothing to doo vvith the externall policie / and gouernment off the church / but onelyonly to adminiſter the word / and Sacramentes: and then the church ſhalbe an heape / and not a bodie / a confuſed multitude / not an orderly ſocietie. Yet in the next ſection / he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vntounto the biſhops / and archbiſhops / and will hauehave them part the ſtake off the Apoſtles autoritie vvhichwhich they had in the church. And as this anſwer is abſurd: ſo yt ys contrarie to that he hath ſet downe in his former booke / that not onelyonly the office off the Archbiſhop is neceſſarie, pag. 351. Diuiſ. 1. Diuiſ. 21. pag. 311.but moſt neceſſarie.

I ſaied before that the Apoſtle ſpeaketh to the Epheſ. off myniſteries vvhichwhich hauehave to doo vvith preaching the vvord: but neuer added (as yow in yowr Doctors booke / and here) and not thoſe which hauehave to doo with order, and diſcipline. Therfore I had nothing forgotten my ſelf, if be would hauehave vnderſtanded that which is plaine to all the world. for thes two may well ſtand together / the Apoſtle ſpake there onelyonly off functions conuerſant in the vvord: and the Lord ſpake of thoſe functiōs vvhichwhich Preach the p. CCCCLVIIvvord, and adminiſter the gouernement. for the word onelyonly / doth not ſeclude gouernemēt from thoſe miniſtries: but ſhutreth owt all miniſteries not preaching / as that off the Elder / and Deacon. And yt is one thing to ſay / the Lord ſpake there onelyonly off preaching myniſteries: an other to ſay / he ſpake there of miniſtries onelyonly preaching: which (me thincketh) yow could not be ignorāt of. Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the miniſteries there / which hauehave together with the preaching of the word / the adminiſtration off gouernement / and making no mention off the Archbiſhop / ſuppoſed to hauehave both: yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr anſwer. I hauehave not confuted my ſhadow, but yowr fond phantaſie. For if S. Paul ſpeake in that place, of thoſe that hauehave the miniſterie off the word, and Sacramentes onelyonly, and not off thoſe which hauehave to doo with the order of diſcipline: yt followeth that Apoſtles hauehave nothing to doo with order / and diſcipline / forſomuch as they are amongeſt thoſe / which S. Paul there ſpeaketh of. If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head: how cometh it to paſſe / that yt ys found in yowr papers?

Laſtly yow ſay the adminiſtration off diſcipline, and gouernement in the Apoſtles, is fallen vponupon the Archbiſhops, and biſhops, the ouerthrow off my whole aſſertion Yf a man will belieue yow ſpeaking / he may: otherwiſe here is nothing but I ſaied yt. And ſurely yt muſt be a very ſimple hould / that is caſt downe with this paper ſhot of bare affirmatiō. but if yow will weigh a litle what yow ſay: yow ſhall ſee that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr ſaying / yt is charged wholy vppon yowr ſelf. For before yow hauehave ſaied once / or twiſe that the office, and autoritie off an Archbiſhop was in the Apoſtles tymes. Which if yt be true / how doth the Archbiſhop receiue his auauritie off order / and gouernement by their death? for hauing yt before / he cannot receiue yt by their departure. Ether therfore this is vntrue / that the archbiſhop exerciſeth the ſame autoritie which the Apoſtles: or that which yow ſaied before / that the office off the Archbiſhop was in the Apoſtles time: or els this third is true / that he hauing in the Apoſtles time / autoritie which he hath now: by their death obteined beſide their former autoritie / that which the Apoſtle had alſo. Which how neere it p. CCCCLVIIIpricketh at the papacye / I leaue to eueryevery one to conſider. But yf the Archbiſhop will ſuccede vntounto the adminiſtration off order / and gouernement off the Apoſtels: why ſheweth he not his euidence? why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequeſt / off reſignation: that it may appeare he is not entred as a treſpaſſer.

In that ſenſe which I hauehave ſhewed in an other place / I In 3. diui. Pag. 231. Ad Euagr.graunt it true which Ierome ſaith / that all biſhops ſuccede vntounto the Apoſtles: but ſhew me who ſpeaketh any thing off the ſucceſſion off the archbiſhop vntounto them. Nay verily that is flat againſt the archbiſhops autoritie. For if eueryevery biſhop hauehave that autoritie in his church / which the Apoſtles had in all the world: it followeth that there nether needeth / nether can be any archbiſhop to receiue any theroff. And that if any archbiſhop chalenge a greater autoritie / then is in any one biſhop: he pulleth to him ſelf greater autoritie in his prouince / then euer the Apoſtles had in the world. And by the ſame reaſon that they be Lordes / and ſuperiours ouer biſhops: they muſt be lordes / and ſuperiours in their prouince ouer the Apoſtles them ſelues / if they were aliue. Conſidering they rule ouer thoſe / which in their dioceſes hauehave the ſame autoritie that the Apoſtles had. This I ſpeake / not that I thinck the Biſhops had not this autoritie / from the very birth / and foundacion off the function / as towching the gouernement off their churches / or that there came any autoritie vntounto them by the Apoſtles death / which they had not in their tymes: but that yt may be vnderſtanded / that if there were any ſuch ſucceſſion vntounto the Apoſtles gouernement / as the D. phanſieth: the biſhops are the right beyres / and that not certein (other ſome ſhut forth) but eueryevery one as Ierome ſaith. Although if tharchbiſhop ſhould hauehave an Apoſtolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince: it hath appeared / and more ſhall (God willing) that the Apoſtles gouernement was far from that principalitie / and rule one ouer an other / which tharchbiſhops chalēge ouer their vnderunder biſhops. The next diuiſion I will not anſwer. The next vntounto that / I report me to the reader / whether I hauehave faithfully / and allmoſt ſeruilely bound my ſelf vntounto his wordes / in tranſlating thes peeces of his latin pāphlet. For the next alſo / I hauing ſhewed that yow placing the Apoſtles function in preaching / and miniſtring p. CCCCLIXthe Sacramentes / not in gouernement: and aſſigning to tharchbiſhop both Adminiſtratiō off the word / and Sacramentes / and order and diſcipline / muſt needes lay greater weight vponupon tharchbiſhop / then vponupon the Apoſtles: yf yow now reuoke yt / I am glad. Howbeit aſhamed to ſpeake it in ſo many wordes / euen yet the courſe off this treatiſe doth breath nothing els.

This is no anſwer vntounto my reaſon. For if the church withowt Diuiſ. 25. Pag. 313.the Archbiſhop / and Archdeacon / be a bodie conſiſting of all the partes / comely knit together / wherin nothing wanteth / nor nothing is to much: then it followeth / that thes offices bring nether ornement / nor accompliſhement to the church / but make onelyonly an vnprofitable knob / and lump off fleſh / to the both diſfuguring / and hinderance off the growght off the bodie. And the miniſtrie off order / and policie of the church / being one part off this bodie: if it be not whole / and complete / but need to be peeced owt with archbiſhops / and Archdeacons: it muſt draw with it this abſurditie / that there being one member vnperfect withowt them / the bodie alſo off Chriſt is not perfecte. And where it ys ſaied / that as in the Apoſtles times the church was not perfect withowt them, and Prophetes, &c. ſo it is not now, meaning therby (as both before / and after hath appeared) that tharchbiſhops ſhould ſupplie the roume off the Apoſtles: I anſwer that the Argument holdeth not. For conſidering that the perfection off the bodie / muſt be meaſured by the will off him whoſe the bodie is / that is Chriſt: as when he gaue Apoſtles / Euangeliſtes / &c. he made it appeare that he would not hauehave his bodie perfect withowt them: ſo when he tooke them away from his church / he made it knowen that the bodie was perfect withowt thē. Yf Apoſtles / and Euangeliſtes had bene put downe by autoritie of man: then yt might hauehave helped yow / that as men put downe Myniſteries / ſo they might ſupplie them with other. But ſeing they were taken away by the Lord: this yowr reaſon in effect (becawſe God taketh away, therfore men may adminiſteries) hath no ſtrenght in it. And where all this drift is / that yow vvould hauehave tharchbiſhops office come in for the Apoſtles / and therfore ſay that their autoritie ouer the paſtors doth, and muſt remaine in ſuch places, as there be churches: beſides my former anſwer vntounto this point / yow are againe taken in the wordes off p. CCCCLXyowr owne lippes. For if it muſt remaine: then the office off the archbiſhop which yow make the veſſell to receiue this autoritie in / and whoſe office (yow ſay) conſiſteth in the rule off other paſtors, is not variable / and depending off circūſtance off time / &c. but perpetuall / and conſtant.

Yf Bucer ſpeake as yow make him: I can by no meanes ſubſcribe vntounto him. For S. Luke ſaith plainly / that there were many Act. 20. 28.Acts 20:28biſhops at Epheſus: and gyueth the name off biſhop to many. That the name off biſhop did properly remaine in one off them, ād improperly in thother / if it hauehave ſo good autoritie as the former / I will belieue that too: if not / I hould me vntounto the wordes off S. Luke. And if the name off biſhop doth vnproperly belong vntounto thoſe / whom Saint Paul ſaith the holy goſt had appointed biſhops: ouer the church: I confeſſe that I can not tell what autoritie is ſufficient / to make that name off biſhop proper vntounto them. And if the name off biſhop did not properly belong vntounto them all / but vntounto one onelyonly: yt followeth that the name alſo of an Elder / did not properly belong vntounto them. For the one of them ys Act. 20. c. 17. v.Acts 20as well verified of them / as the other: and there is no more reſtreint off the name off biſhop then of an Elder / vntounto any one ſingular perſon amongeſt them. And how is this ſentence off Bucer here pulled in by the heare? for albeit it were concluded / that one biſhop ſhould beare dominiō ouer the miniſters of one churche: yet yt followeth not which is here in queſtion / that one alſo owght to rule ouer all biſhops in a prouince. The reſt is anſwered.

In deed I denie, but yow affirme that there be ſtill Apoſtles / Diuiſ. 26. pag. 314Prophetes / &c. ād therfore by yowr ſaying / that order which was then / owght now alſo to be continued. And although yowr archbiſhop vvere vnderunder gownde: yet order in eccleſiaſticall myniſtries remaineth / that the teaching Elders ſhould be a degree aboue thoſe vvhichwhich gouerne onelyonly / and they aboue the Deacons. The marck I ſhoot at is certein / that is to confute yowr diſtinction off Diuiſ. 27: pag. 314.myniſteries off the word / and Sacramentes onelyonly / and miniſteries off gouernement / and order: and it ſeemeth I ſhot ſo nigh / that I hauehave driuen yow away from the marck. For yow wander / p. CCCCLXIand tell vsus of thinges that hauehave nether head / nor foot: and which if they were true / make nether whot / nor kold vntounto this queſtion. For if your learned interpreters, hauehave well defined S. Paules rule (the Elders vvhichwhich rule are vvorthy) &c. when they ſay yt is to ſerue Chriſt, and his church faithfully, in doctrine, and integritie off life &c: then it muſt ſuffice yowr Archbiſhop to doo ſo / and no more. For if yow thinck that eueryevery miniſter in his church / is barred by that definition from further gouernement / then which conſiſteth in preaching / adminiſtring the Sacramentes / vncorrupt life / &c: it followeth that he medling with moe then thoſe / breaketh the boundes off good gouernement. After yow make an other rode owt off the queſtion / bearing the reader in hand / that I would conclude owt off that place equalitie off miniſters when as my pourpoſe was as I hauehave ſhewed / to confute yowr vaine diſtinction. Which although yow here denie: yet the print off yowr hand is deeper / then yow can wipe owt by thes ſo ſtrong / but litle honeſt denials. For onles yow refer this word onelyonly, to the ſecluding off the miniſteries mentioned to the Epheſians / from the gouernement / and policie off the church: yowr anſwer falleth as is before declared. Conſidering that yow labouring to make a difference betwene thoſe myniſteries / and the Archbiſhops / make none: if they together with adminiſtratiō off the word / and Sacramentes / handle alſo order / and gouernment. And although yow had quite left owt the word onelyonly: yet thes wordes (the Apoſtle doth recite thoſe miniſteries which are occupied in praier, the word, and Sacramentes: not off them which are inſtituted for order, and diſcipline) hauehave that ſenſe which I hauehave gyuen them. For if he ſpeake off thoſe which miniſter the word / and Sacramentes / not off thoſe inſtituted for gouernement / &c. yt followeth that he ſpeaketh off thoſe which miniſter the word / and Sacramentes onelyonly. As he that ſaith a man is iuſtified by faith / and not by worckes: ſaith that he is iuſtified by faith onelyonly. The bolt ſhot vppon no occaſion / towching the papacie off eueryevery paſtor in his church, and off ſhaking off the Princes autoritie, being that which cometh eueryevery hand while / when he hath nought els to ſay / ſhall be broken in an other place. For the two next diuiſ. let the reader iudge off the writinges off both ſides.

My wordes hauehave light enough to hauehave kept yow from this p. CCCCLXIIDiuiſ. 30. pag. 316.wandring / but that yow take pleaſure in vntruth. for beſide that the ſcope off my diſputation / doth beate yow from that vagarie: my wordes are plaine. For I ſay not that eueryevery one that occupieth a myniſterie in the church, hath gyftes ſufficient for his calling: but eueryevery function, or myniſtrie off the church, hath giftes ſufficient, &c. And if yowr vnderſtanding be ſo narrow as yow pretend: vnderſtād it by examples. And becawſe our queſtion is of offices neceſſarie for our times / and therfore likewiſe off the giftes: yow may learne that the office off a Paſtor / is (as hath bene ſhewed) a ſeuerall office from the Doctor / becauſe beſide the knowledge / and dexteritie in teaching / the wiſdome / and diſcretion in gouerning: yt hath alſo annexed the grace to moue affections / ether to the louelove of good / or hatred off euill. Likewiſe the Doctor frō the Elder: becawſe beſide the gift off gouernement enough for that function / there is required as I hauehave ſaied abilitie to teach. The Deacon from the Elder: for that beſide faithfulnes / and reaſonable wiſdome / which is ſufficiēt for the gathering / and beſtowing of the church money: is required with greater wiſdome a ſingular diligence / as off him whoſe charge reacheth vntounto the whole / where the other perteineth to the poore of the church onelyonly: and which is occupied in relieuing the pouerties off the minde / where the other is off the bodie. This is that I ſaied / eueryevery function hath proper giftes for the execution of it: and that forſomuche as now ther is no gift neceſſarie for the eccleſiaſticall miniſterie / not conteined in thes / and that all thes fall into the ordinarie miniſterie inſtituted / and ſpecified in the ſcripture: therfore thes ordinatie Miniſteries ſpecified in ſcripture / are ſufficient. And as it is a good reaſon that there are no moe Sacramentes but baptiſme / and the ſupper / forſomuch as there is no promeſſe off life euerlaſting not expeſſed in thes / conſidering that thone ſealeth vp / and aſſureth that we are receiued into the howſe off God / the other that we ſhall befed in it to life euerlaſting: euen ſo thes miniſteries / are proued to be ſufficient / becawſe all giftes neceſſarie to good order / and conduit off the church / are promiſed vntounto them.

Againſt this is ſaied / that God tieth not his giftes to a certein nombre off names, but beſtoweth them where it pleaſeth him. I ſpake not off p. CCCCLXIIIall giftes / but of giftes neceſſarie to gouerne the church with all: and thoſe being neceſſarily tied vntounto the offices which hauehave / and owght to hauehave / thoſe names: all other church offices are ſhut forth / as thoſe which are ether idle / or hurtfull. That there are functions neceſſarie Coriath. 12. not mentioned to the Epheſians, and againe that the Apoſtle did not make a perfect diuiſion in ether off thoſe places, is onelyonly to trifle owt the tyme. forſomuch as I added expreſſely / that I grounded my reaſon off both places ioyntly beſides that it is vntrue that Deacons, and widowes are left owt to the Corinth. being conteined in the word helpes. Moreouer this is the third contrary foreign.ſentence / which he hath gyuen off Corin. 12. for in the latin booke he proueth / that there is no perfect diuiſion there: in this he goeth in 18. diu. pag. 309.abowt to proue by reaſon / and autoritie / that it is pecfect: here he ſaith it is not perfect Such force hath the truth / that yt maketh them all guiddy / and turneſick that wreſtle againſt it: not perfect, perfect, not perfect. ſo that the very Camelion it ſelf / could neuer ſo ſoudenly / and into ſo contrary coulors change it ſelf. Againſt his exception that there are reckened vp in thoſe places offices which endured for a time: I graunt there were ſo / but thoſe ceaſſing (as hath bene ſhewed) their proper giftes alſo be gone with them. Where he addeth that he could tell me, that the church hath autoritie to appoint names, and offices: yt is that in queſtiō / which he often ſaith / but neuer proueth. Towching Readers / it is anſwered: as for Catechiſtes / they are to be diſcuſſed after.

The argument which yow ſay is too bad for a boy, is as good as I can make any. I will leaue it to the iudgement of all which hauehave ſkill / how yow vncouer yowr ſelf in yowr exceptions againſt it. For to omit that I hauehave ſaid / and leaue to be iudged / of argumentes good of particulers: my firſt propoſitiō is vniuerſall / if this be / the ſeruant that knovveth his maiſters vvill, and doth it not, ſhall be beaten vvith many ſtripes: and this / they that doo the vvill of my father vvhichwhich is in heauen, ſhall enter into the kingdome off heauen: he that is not vvith me, is againſt me: thoſe vvhichwhich goe after other gods, ſhall loſe their good: and an infimite nomber moe / to be ſeen both in holy / and prophane writers. But as the ruder ſort know not the King / onles he hauehave his p. CCCCLXIIIIcrowne vpō his head: ſo the D. hath no marck to know a generall propoſition by / onles it hauehave this word All, vppon the head of it.

Likewiſe where he ſaith this worde (onelyonly) is not to be founde in the ſeconde propoſition: He ſhoulde hauehave vnderſtanded / that it is a parte off the principall extremes / and therfore coulde not enter there. It ys his greate wante / that he can not knowe one terme / from another / onles they ſtande in their naturall order. for becawſe he ſaw not thes wordes (onelyonly are ſufficiente) in the naturall place off the extreme / as one that had no marke to diſcerne the maſter from the man / but by going before and behinde / he takethe one for another. When S. Iohn ſaithe in the beginning vvas the vvorde, and by and by after / God vvas that vvorde, with many ſuch examples both in holie / and prophane writ: thoſe that hauehave but a litle iudgement can tell / that althowgh he chaunged the naturall order / yet thoſe are ſtill the fyrſte partes / which are put in the later place: and that it ys aſmuch as if he had ſaid / The vvorde vvas in the beginning, and the vorde vvas God. This is therfore the argumente, which in the Anſ. ſight hath no manner off forme. Thoſe functions which hauehave all giftes needefull / ether for the miniſtring off the worde / and Sacramentes / or for the gouernemente off the churche / onelyonly are ſufficient: the functions reckened vp off Saint Paul in bothe the places / to the Epheſ and Corinth. hauehave all giftes needefull / ether for miniſtring off the word / and Sacramentes / or for gouernement of the churche: therfore thoſe functions onelyonly are ſufficient. Let the reader therfore iudge / whether this argument be like vntounto thes ſweepinges / that he hath matched it with. That an archbiſhop is a Diuiſ 31. Pag 317 in diui. 10 pag. 304. in 3 Tranewe miniſtrie / is declared. Where he ſaith if no man appoint new offices, but he which can gyue giftes to diſcharge them, it ſhould follow, that no man might appoint offices: if he vnderſtand as he owght to doo eccleſiaſticall offices / it is that I mainteine. if he leap ouer here (as his couſtome is) to ciuill: I hauehave ſhewed that the reaſon is not like.

Half this diuiſ. is in the tenth off this chap. where yt hath anſwer. My argument here (a man may not ad to the miniſteries, Diuiſ 32 pag. 318.becauſe he may not take avvay) is fyrſt off thinges apparantly p. CCCCLXVlike: as thoſe vvhichwhich are likewiſe forbidden / likewiſe puniſhed. Deut. 12. 32. Apoc. 22. 19.Deut 12:32Rev 22:19Then it hath this grownd / that they being contrary fall into one ſubiect: except one be naturally in it / as heat in fire. (Which I am conſtreined to ſpeake of / becauſe I hauehave to doo with ſuch a trifler / as would ſnatch at this exception / although nothing to prurpoſe.) So that as he that hath autoritie to make lawes / hath alſo to abrogate / he which may abſolue may condemne / he that may binde may looſe: ſo he that hath power to ad / hath alſo to deminiſh. But marck vvhat the D. anſwereth. The queſtion is vvhether men may ad to the miniſteries: the meane / and argument wherby I proue they can not, becauſe it is not lavvfull to deminiſh: now when he anſwereth / that men may ad / doth he not gyue that for anſwer which is the queſtion / and take that for his proofe / which is to be proued? And as for that which followeth (the added miniſteries may be helpes to miniſteries inſtituted off God): yt is likewiſe in controuerſie / being as doubtfull as the reſt. And the Papiſtes may as well anſwer thus / for the multiplying off their Sacramentes: as the D. for encreaſe off the miniſtries. But forſomuch as thes are yowr commen anſwers / here is nothing new / or to be wondred at. VntoUnto the ſecond propoſition he ſaith / men may take away offices off God which are temporall (that is enduring for a time) but not perpetuall. Wherin he is greatly abuſed. For nether any man / nor all men in the world / could hauehave put downe the temporall miniſteries off Apoſtles / Euangeliſtes / &c. which the Lord ordeined / onles the Lord him ſelf had withdrawen them: and therfore they ſo long remained in the church / vntill he by their death / withowt rayſing vp any ſeede vntounto them (by diſtribution of thoſe giftes wherby thoſe miniſteries might be furniſhed) declared that they had an end.

The Anſ. in defenſe of this forged Doctors / is like vntounto one Chap. 2. Diuiſ. 1. pag. 319.which to defend him from the kolde / couereth him ſelf with a wet ſacke. For before his ignorance might hauehave in part excuſed him: now by this maintenance off his anſwer / he hath doubled his folie. For firſt to make him ſelf cleane / he defileth as much as he can / Maiſter Caluin / and the Biſhop off Saliſburie: both which he nether ſheweth to hauehave vſed this Clement / and if they doo: yet p. CCCCLXVItheir vſe of him / or ſuch like / is ſo farfrō leſſening his fault / that is maketh it more appeare. For they vſe them agaynſt the Papiſtes / which for the moſte part attributing vntounto them as great weight of autoritie / as to the ſcriptures themſelues / are ſo ſet vp. Which they doo alſo therby to driue from them: that if they can not be browght from the confidence they hauehave in ſuch / becawſe they are falſe: at leaſt they might be browght to miſlike them / becawſe they make againſt them. Likewiſe when they alledge them / they gyue them ſuch an eare marck / that all may know them forged. But the D. doth vſe them againſt thoſe / which hunger for proofes at his handes owt off the worde off God / in the matters debated: which hauehave that eſtimacion that is meet ſhould be had / off ſuch filth as that is: which could not giuegive credit vntounto this autoritie / withowt renouncing the profeſſion off the goſpell / which we hauehave in commen. And in ſteed off giuing him his eare marck: he putteth a night cap vppon him / to hide it with. for in ſteed off alledging off him owt off the epiſtles / where he appeareth with his hornes / and clawes plainly: he maketh him come owt of Polidore / as diſguiſed owt off a ſtraunge contrey. and becawſe Polidores wordes did not muffle him ſufficiently / in ſaying that this was conteined in a litle ſummarie off Chriſtian religion: he (that Clement might goe the better vnknowen) added / in a booke intituled, &c. which I merueil with what face he citeth Polidore for. as if there were no difference between his / and Polidorc… wordes. And he is not cōtent onelyonly to hauehave alledged the autority: but as in a certein / and vndoubted victorie / he triumpheth / and inſulteth vponupon his aduerſarie: ſarie: ſaying / Peter was not Antichriſt, ergo the name off an Archbiſhop, is not Antichriſtian.

In the ſecond place he ſaith / he vſed them not … ſure grownde…, but as probable teſtimonies off antiquitie of the name. Wherin his hand being with the Papiſtes / is againſt not onelyonly the manifeſt truth / but all thoſe godly writers / which reiect thoſe epiſtles as vpſtartes / and lately forged vnderunder a hedge. For againſt them all the D. ſaith / that it is very probable that they hauehave that antiquitie which they pretend. Thirdly / he compareth them vvith the Canons attributed vntounto the Apoſtles: wheroff albeit diuerſe …e falſely fathered: yet thoſe creeping in at ſundrie times / were p. CCCCLXVII…w…ſtanding ſome 100. yeares / before this droſſe came …to the church. Wheruppon alſo the corruptions in them / although they …a…ter the walles off the cytie off God: yet they raſe not the foundacions off it / as this Clement doth: nether are they alledged off me (as he pretendeth) but with atteint off the baſenes off their birth. And for my alledging off Higinus: I refer me to the indgement off the reader / what a cogniſance I hauehave gyuen him there / pag. 4…to be knowen by.

His laſt refuge is / that yt is like Polidore ment ſome other booke. not now extant. For confutation off which vnſhamefaſt ſpeach / to what end ſhould I other alledge the latenes off the time wherin he wrote / or vnfoundnes off his iudgmēt? wherby he hauing not made half a turne from Poperie vntounto the goſpell: might by all likelihood think / that thoſe were Clementes epiſtles. The weakenes off his owne proofes doo betray him / as thoſe that make more againſt / then for him. For if he will make difference between a groſſe epiſtle / and a litle booke: the preciſe diſtinction tendeth rather to proue a booke / then an Epiſtle. And for the lenght / it is manifeſt: conſidering that Tully calleth ſuch long letters / a volume: and in two or three epiſtles drawen owt beyond the ordinary / correcteth him ſelf / as breaking the bondes off an Epiſtle. The ſame may be ſaied both off the matter handled / and off the manner off handling. Which being nether commen / nor familiar if a man will ſpeake as the Latines (whom Polidore followeth) vſe: they were fitter for a booke / then an Epiſtle. That Clement ſcarce knowing what difference there is / between the nominatiue / and accuſatiue caſe: yt was no merueill if he were ignorant off the difference / between a booke / and an epiſtle: and therfore not vnlike / but Polidore helped him in his title. for the next diuiſ. I am content that the iſſue declare / from whence the archbiſhop came.

This is deintie / and tender geere / and ſuch as I can not deale with. diuers times before his anſwer hath bene / that tharchbiſhops Diuiſ. 3. pag. 320.miniſterie differeth from the Biſhops towching order: here he ſaith / they differ not in order. before to proue that the church might appoint an archbiſhop / he ſaied / that it might appoint an pag. 317.office / beſide the offices off the ſcriptures: now he is gone from that / ſaying the Archbiſhops miniſterie is no other miniſtrie, but an other p. CCCCLXVIIIdegree. Alſo in an other place / he to mainteine tharchbiſhop ſaith / the church may ad miniſteries: here becauſe he is aſhamed off that / he pag. 318.denieth that yt is a new miniſterie. Then foraſmuch as his anſwer ſtandeth in this difference / off eccleſiaſticall office / and degree / and againe betwene eccleſiaſticall degree / and order: becawſe I thinck they were neuer heard off before / they need ſome autoritie off the ſcripture / at leaſt ſome Eccleſiaſticall writers to confirme them. And beſide that in eccleſiaſticall writers / the myniſteries are ſeparated one from an other by degree: the Anſ. Pag. 587.him ſelf in an other place / will hauehave the word degree (when it is ſaied / they get vntounto them ſelues a good degree) to ſignifie a diuers miniſtrie from the Deaconſhip. Likewiſe in an other place / to proue that a Biſhop is aboue a prieſt / he vppon certein autorities Pag. 361.concludeth / that in thoſe times there were three degrees off miniſters / biſhop / prieſt / and deacon. whereuppon yt muſt follow / that if the Archbiſhop differ from the biſhop in degree eccleſiaſticall: he muſt differ in miniſterie / euen as the degree off deacon / being different from the Elder / maketh a ſeuerall myniſterie from yt. yea theruppon followeth / that there being then but three degrees in the church / wheroff the archbiſhop was none by his owne ſaying: there was then no archbiſhop / ſeing he maketh him a ſeuerall degree from them: which is a manifeſt ouerthrow off that he defendeth.

In an other place to proue Timothe archbiſhop / he alledgeth pag. 325.that thoffice off tharchhiſhops, and biſhops be one, becawſe whatſoeuer is neceſſarie for a biſhop, is neceſſarie for an archbiſhop: which is ridiculous. For then a biſhop is all one with an Elder / conſidering that whatſoeuer is neceſſarie for an Elder / is neceſſarie for a biſhop: and the Euangeliſtes office the ſame that an Apoſtles / conſidering that whatſoeuer is neceſſarie for an Euang. is neceſſarie for an Apoſtle. Where to proue the offices all one / he ſhould hauehave ſaied / not onelyonly that it is neceſſarie for an archbiſhop which is for a biſhop: but alſo that whatſoeuer is neceſſarie for an archbiſhop / In the ſame place…s likewiſe for a biſhop. Where he ſaith / they differ onelyonly in order, and policie, and therfore all attributed in the Epiſtle to Timothe the Archbiſhop, agreeth vntounto eueryevery biſhop: theroff followeth that a commen p. CCCCLXIX(as he is called) not differing in office from our biſhop (as himſelf confeſſeth after) ſhall by the ſame reaſon / hauehave power to doo all thinges deſcribed in that epiſtle / and conſequently make miniſters / and put owt as well as our biſhops doo. Thes thinges therfore were giuen owt / or euer they were well thowght off: ſome time tharchbiſhop differeth in office from a biſhop / ſometime he differeth not: ſometime he differeth in order / ſometime not: ſome time in degree / ſometime not.

To proue that S. Peter by him ſelf / withowt the autoritie off other Apoſtles / inſtituted Archbiſhops / ys browght the example off S. Paul, which made Timothe, and Tite Archbiſhops: which is to proue one thing in controuerſie / by that which is likewiſe. and is all one as if one doubting the ſuffiencie off his creditor / in ſteed off ſome ſubſtanciall man to aſſure his debt / ſhould hauehave a banck rowt browght to be bownd vntounto him. Which manner off reaſoning when all men know how abſurd it is: it appeareth that the Anſ. vſing it continually / is (as they ſay) at the end off his rolle. That S. Paul did not appoint Titus / and Timothe of his owne in 2. Tractat.autoritie onelyonly / hath before appeared: that he did not appoint thē Archbiſhops / ſhall afterward (God willing) be ſhewed. Beſide that yt hath bene already off Timothe ſhewed / that he was an Euangeliſt: and the ſame reaſon is off Tite.

To my other reaſon / that S. Peter would not graff the moſt noble plant (as it is counted) off the miniſterie off the goſpell / in the rotten ſtocke off Archflamines: he anſwereth that Peter might place Archbiſhops where the Archflamines were, not in reſpect off them, but in reſpect off the cytie. Which diſtinction I confeſſe I vnderſtand not: onelyonly I ſee / that in this clowde / and miſt off confuſed / and vndiſtinct diſtinctiō / he would ſteale away vneſpied. for yf in the ſame cyties onelyonly where there were Archflamines (as we are borne in hand) and in place off them Archbiſhops were placed: and as the Archflamines were ſet to ouerſee the flamines / ſo the Archbiſhops to ouerſee the biſhops: how can it be but they were placed as well in reſpect off thoſe Achflamines / as off the cities? For they differ not in this point from Archflam. conſidering that as archbiſhops were placed in reſpect off great cyties: ſo were the Archflam. before them. Here alſo the Anſw. floteth in his iudgement p. CCCCLXXoff Peter. For before he ſaide / he had the cheife rule off the … ſtles in all matters: and here / he was not aboue them in power. ſo that onles Pag. 68.he can mynce vsus a diuerſity betwene ſuperior in rule / and ſuperior in power: yt is cleare that he is not the ſame man here / that he was there.

The lordes preiſtes / and Sacrafices were before the preiſtes / and ſacrifices off the Gentills. therfore that exception (God inſtituted Diuiſ. 4. pag. 321.preiſtes and ſacrifices though the Gentils had the like) … vaine to proue that there may be Archbiſhops / as there were Archflamines. A Kinge was neceſſarie for the Iſraelites, to ſhadow owte to thē the kingdome of our S. Chriſte: therfore that exāple is owte of place. To proue conformite betwene the people of God / and Idolaters in thinges which are not neceſſarie / as the Archebiſhoprick is confeſſed / beſide that yt ys an euill concluſion / to ſaie there maie be conformitie betwene the people off God / and Idolaters in cyuill affaires / therfore in eccleſiaſticall: to ordeine a biſhopp, and myniſter being the inſtitution of God / in eueryevery churche where there was other a flamen, or maſſe preiſte, can not be ſaide to be framed according to thoſe orders. But to ordeine an Archbiſhop not inſtituted off God / bothe in that place where the Archflamen was / and with that rule / and autoritie ouer the biſhopes / which the archflam. had ouer their flamēs: can not be imagined / but to hauehave bene framed according to that Idolatrous function. Yf yow will therfore make the like: yow muſt proue that as yt ys the inſtitucion of God / that in eueryevery churche there ſholde be a biſhop / or myniſter: ſo yt ys likewiſe his inſtitution / that in euerie greate cytie / there ſhoulde be an Archbiſhop. The allegation owte of maiſter Fox in the nexte / perteineth not to this place. For the queſtion is not heere / whether the Archbiſhops came in ſteede off Arflamines / but wether S. Peter did ordeine archbiſhops in place off the archflamines: which I aſſure my ſelfe yow can not ſhew owte off him.

Here he hath at one puſh / thruſt the archbiſhop quite owte off the churche. For if this be a good reaſon / there were no deacons Diuiſ. 6. pag. 312.emongeſte the Iewes / becawſe they were not ſpecified in the oulde Teſtament: then yt is likewiſe trew / that forſomuche as there ys no Archbiſhop ſpecified in the new Teſtament / there p. CCCCLXXIwas no Archbiſhop in the Apoſtles tymes. Againſte this take off Peters ordeining off Archbiſhops in the place off Archeflamens / add this / that the vanitie off yt maie appeare: foraſmuche as if there were any Archeflamens in S. Peters tyme / they were vpholden off the Magyſtrates that lyued in thoſe dayes. And therfore to put downe them / and place other in their roumes / there was required S. Peter / beſyde his keyes ſholde hauehave a ſworde / and an armie off men. For the Magyſtrates being then (as the Anſ. himſelfe graunteth) heatheniſhe / and Idolatrous: this alteraciō could neuer be made / but by ſtronge hand / and at the ſwordes poynt. The reſt / bare affirmacions / and confuted in other places / I leaue. Whether the Sadduces were collectors for the poore / I will not enter further into: although his reaſon / off not being ſpecified in the ould teſtament, is vnſufficient. For yt ys enough yf yt be in new or ould: conſydering that the baptiſyng off the Iſraelites in the ſea / and ſpirituall feeding by Manna / and the water following them / being vnderunder the ould Teſtament: are onelyonly ſpecifyed in the new. beſyde that his argument is negatiue off one part off 1. Corint. 10. &c.the ſcripture / which he condemneth in vsus off the whole.

Agaynſte the reaſon I bring to proue / that there were no Archflamines / ys anſwered that the matter ys not great yt ſtandeth Diuiſ. 7. pag. ….vppon the lyfe off the Archbiſhop. For yf yt be found a Canturberye tale / off Saint Peters placyng off Archbiſhops in place off Archflamynes: being not off the Apoſtles planting / We may both boldlyer / and eaſelier pull hym vp by the rootes. Then he ſaith / an argument off humane autorytye negatyue, ys not good. Wherin I refer my ſelfe to that ſayed before in that behalf / and leaue yt to eueryevery mannes conſyderation / what lykelyhood there ys that there were ſuche / when Tullye dyuiding / and diſtinguyſhing the offyces occupied about their Gods / maketh no mention off that / ſuppoſed to hauehave bene cheyf. Where he aſketh why the Grecians might not call him Archflamin, whom Tullie called Flamen Dialis: I am content / let that be triall. And yf he can ſhew me ether Plutarch / or Dyoniſyus Halicarnaſeus / or any other good greek / or latin auncient wryter / that there was any ſuch office: I will moue no further diſputation in this matter. Therfore I woulde gladly know of yow / what pr…ph…e … they be which p. CCCCLXXIImake mention off thes Archflamines. For the founteines from which this report cometh / are not eccleſiaſticall / but papiſticall.

Laſt off all / to proue that there were Archflamines / and withall to lay open my vnſkilfullnes in ſtories, yt is alledged that there were ſuch in England. But how doth he ſhew my vnſkilfulnes / which ſheweth nothing wherin I preuented hym not? I knew well that there were that ſaied ſo / I alledged them: but with what truth / and fidelitie / that ys the queſtion. To deciding wheroff beſyde reproches / what ys browght? he will ſay paraduenture M. Fox. Yf thow turne gentle reader thother ſide off the leafe / wherowt the ſentence ys taken: thow ſhalt vnderſtand manifeſt treacherie. for M. Fox diſputeth againſt this opinion / and vſeth diuers reaſons which confute flatly this fable / off the conuerſion off England by Eleutherius Embaſſadours: and ſetteth downe that ſentence by way off conceſſion / rather caried agaynſt his will by certein ſtories in this vntruth / then led by his owne Iudgemente. Note alſo that the D. ys directly here for Harding / agaynſt the Biſhop off Sarum / both in this fable / off Eleutherius / and the Archflamines. For towching archflamines he ſaith / yt ys a mere phantaſie, grounded vponupon an vnſauorie fable off Clementes, and Anacletus: and that nether the name Archflamines, Apol pa 2. ca 4. d. 3.or protaflamines, is to be found in any auncient allovved vvriter. and towching thother fable of Eleutherius / obiected by Harding as now by the D. he anſwereth / it is vntrue: adding reaſons there to be ſeē. And that this fable wherof Geffrey Monumetēſis Apol pa 1. ca 2. d 2was autor / may better appeare: hauing a litle treatiſe theroff ſent me with M. Foxes leafe / well writtē in that behalf / that in the profit the church ſhall receyue / the autor alſo may hauehave ſome fruict off his trauaill / I will here ſet yt downe.

Geffrey Monumetenſis maketh here in Britayn before Lucius tyme / 28. flamines / and 3. Archflamines / and when Lucius receiued the Chriſtian fayth / that the 28. flamines were changed into 28. Biſhops / and the 3. Archflam. into 3. Archbiſhops / which had three ſeates in the three cheif cyties off the Iſle / London / Yorck / and Caeruſt. VntoUnto London was ſubiect Loegria / vntounto Yorck Deira / and Albanya / vntounto Caeruſk Cambry…. Thus all the p. CCCCLXXIIIIſle by this ſtorie off Geffrey / ſhould become Chriſtened in Lucius tyme. But this could not come to paſſe vponupon Lucius receiuing the Religion of Chriſt / onles he had been king ouer all Britayn. Now the manner off the Britaynes was not to hauehave one king alone / but many: as may moſt plainly appeare both before Lucius time / and after / by the ould Romane hiſtories / and alſo by Gildas the Britanie hiſtoriographer / who liued about 1100. agoe. Diodorus Siculus ſaith / there are many kinges / and Frinces: lib. 5. ca. 8when he ſpeaketh off Brytain / ſhewing what yt was in the daies off Iulius Ceſar. After whom the Emperour that did attempt to ſubdue the Brytaines / was Claudius / more then 50. yeares after that Iulius Ceſar made warre vppon them: at which tyme what the gouernement of Brytanes was in hauing Kinges / thus writteth Dion Caſſius. The Britaines vvere not free, but ſubiect In vita Claudiꝭ.to diuers Kinges Now an hundreth yeare after this almoſt / which is nigh the tyme that Lucius is ſaied by Geffrey to be King of Britayn / thus writeth Cornelius Tacitus. In tymes paſt they obeyed Kinges, novv by Princes they are diſtracted vvith factions, and partes taking, nether is there any other thing more profitable for vsus againſt moſt mightie nations, then that they take no commen counſaill: yt is ſeldome that tvvo or three cyties come together, to vvithſtand a commen daunger. ſo vvhileſt they fight ſeuerally, they are ouercommed vvholy. This writeth Tacitus / ſonne in law off that Lucius Agricola / who had the rule off this Iſle 8. yeares continuall in the raigne off Domitian the Emperour: and therfore could not but well vnderſtand / the manner off the Britaines in hauing at once many Princes / gyuen to tumultes.

Now in the daies off Seuerus the Emperour / who raigned by and by after this tyme / in which Lucius ys ſaied King of Britaines: heare what ys reported by a writer euen off that age / and Dion Caſſius.which was for the moſt part / in the warres off the Romans him ſelf. Amongeſt the Brytaines, the people for a great part hauehave the rule. To conclude Gildas himſelf / in his inuectiue Epiſtle agaynſt the Britaines / maketh mentiō of diuers kinges / as liuing all at one tyme, but admit this were true / that Lucius was King alone p. CCCCLXXIIIIouer all Brytaine: yet was he vnderunder the Romane deputie / and could attempt no change of Religion / ſpecially the Romaine / and ſo vniuerſally as ys ſuppoſed / but with his allowance: the Brytaines hauing amonge them at that tyme / ſo valiant a Romane deputie called Albinus / of whom Seuerus then Emperour / ſtood hym ſelf in ſome awe / and durſt attempt no warres abroad / before he had fyrſt ioined in ſure amitie with him. For aaDionifi. Halicarnaſſaeus.to hauehave flamines was proper to the Roman religion: bbCornel. Tacit. li. 14.but Druides proper to the Brytaines. Which if at any time the Romans did put away / to eſtabliſh their owne flamines (which doth not yet apeare by any hiſtorie) yet that could they not doe ouer all Britaine according to Geffreis ſtorie / but onelyonly ſo far as their owne prouince did extend. For ouer all Britaine they were neuer Lordes: ſeing that a ccDion. Caſſius.Roman (which ſaith he wrote that he ſaw) writeth thus. Part off this Iſland, is a litle leſſe then half ovvres: vvhichwhich vvhen Seuerus vvould vvholy ſubdue, he entred into Calidonia. For a litle before thes wordes / he maketh the Britaines conſiſt of two kindes of people / whom be calleth Meatas / and Calidonios / and that the Romans had in their power / onelyonly the Meatas.

Againe conſider what was the life off the Britaines in the daies of Seuerus the Emperour / who liued a lytle after that Lucius ys ſaied King off Britaine: and it vvill appeare moſt plainly / that the Brytaines had not onelyonly no ſuch ſhew off a generall / and open Chriſtian church eſtabliſhed amonge them / as ſetteth forth Geffrey: but alſo that they were far from any litle taſt off Chriſt. For thus yt ys written off them. They liue in tentes naked, Dion Caſſius. in loco ſupra cita…o.their vviues are commen, &c. Ys it like that a people that abuſeth wines in commen / had ſuch a conſtituted forme of a Chriſtian church / as Geffrey gyueth to vnderſtand? or was there euer ſuch barberouſnes off going naked off men / and weomen / where the word off God was tawght? which commaundeth not onelyonly modeſtie / but ſemelynes. It is therfore rather true / which that ould father Gildas / their owne countrey man ſpeaketh off them: the Britaines receiued the faith off Chriſt, euen from the cōming off Chriſt, and in the daies off Tiberius the Emperour: but that was not publikely nor vniuerſally by autoritie off p. CCCCLXXVPrince / but off ſome few / and off thoſe how? Of ſome Koldly, off ſome ſoundly. and how lōg? vntill the tymes off Diocleſian the Tyrant: which was after Lucius / at leaſt 132. yeares.

But if we will narrowly exact this ſtorie of Geffrey / yt will hardly fall owt / that Lucius him ſelf became a Chriſtian / according to his deliuering off the ſterie. For he ſaith yt came to paſſe by meanes off Eleutherius / wo was made biſhop off Rome in the daies of Commodus the Emperour / anno 180. and yet maketh Lucius to die an 156. ſo by that reckening / Lucius became Chriſtian after he was dead / at leaſt xxiiij yeares. Further if we well marck / after what long blindnes off time / this ſtorie commeth to light / and in what defect off any ould / and good writer to keepe the memorie therof: I dare warrant yow / yt will proue but a fable. The time when this is ſaied to be doon / lacketh a good deale off 200. yeares after Chriſt: a thowſand yeares after this we hauehave no knowen writer / nether off our owne / not forein / that maketh any litle report off this chaunge off Archflaminrickes into archbiſhoprickes / vntill the tyme off Geffrey: who was made biſhop off S. Aſſe / in the daye off Henry the ſecond. And from vvhence fetcheth he this ſtorie? yt may be ſome will ſay / he had yt off the ould Britaines / and was by him onelyonly tourned into latin. but how likely is this to be true? when ould Gildas dealeth thus plainly / in report off his owne countrey monumentes. The monumentes In his epiſtle aforeſaiedof vvriters, yf there vvere any, be ether burnt by fyre of ennemies: or by nauy of citiſens exiled, caried far off, doe not appeare.

But if any man will ſay / perhaps this booke of Geffrey was one off thoſe ſo caried away / and afterwardes found he woteth not where / was browght home againe: this beſides it is off yt ſelf but a coniecture / ys alſo plainly refuted by Geffrey him ſelf: who vvriteth ſtorie almoſt off 200. yeares after Gildas / and hath the biſtorie off Bede in ſome places / euen word for word. That I ſpeake nothing off his vntruth / and toto childiſh errors in many places / eſpecially vvhen he maketh report off any matter of auncient tyme: which might be ſome argument alſo / to draw from hym opinion off antiquitie. After that Geffrey had once coiued this ſtorie / there lacke no writers which alſo make mention p. CCCCLXXVItheroff: but ſo as they make ſome chaunge off his report. As Platina / who maketh but 25. flamines. and 3. Archflamines: belike in vita Eleutherij.moued by the Epiſtle off Gildas / who maketh the nombre of all the cyties in Britaine / to be but 28. although he alledge for his autor Ptolomey. Thus far this autor: vponupon all which matter may appeare / what folies they be which the D. auowcheth for truth / and wheruppon he hath laied the foundacion off his archbiſhop.

Yow ſhall not be hable to ſhewe that the biſhops which the Apoſtels planted were other, then which with thelders had the ouerſight Diuiſ. 8. Pag. 324.of one particular congregation: and therfore yowr proofes are alwaies by other thinges / as dowtefull as the queſtion in hande. And if that vvere true / yet maketh it nothing for the archbiſhop. For what ſynewes are in this argumēt? The Apoſtles placed biſhops in euerie cytie, therfore an Archbiſhop ouerſeer off them in eueryevery prouince. After he ſaith / yf by a piller of Antechriſte yow vnderſtand him or him: as if I had not ſufficiently ſhewed vvhō I mēte. Who can patiently anſwer this wandring where the way is ſo plainly beaten? and this is his commen practiſe to peece owte his anſwer. Thirdly he ſaith / he may take reportes off Antiquities from the papiſtes: no man hindereth him. But if he will take their reporte in their owne cawſe / and in a matter inuented to aduance the credite of the romiſhe ſeat / that whileſt Peter is made the founder of Archbiſhops / and Patriarckes / the Pope his ſuppoſed ſucceſſor / might hauehave the ſtewardſhip off them / and they be the eaſelier holden in his obedience: yf I ſaie he will belieue ſuche ſtories / yt is to be feared leſte it be the Lordes anger againſte him: wherby it is iuſte that they ſhold belieue lies / which vvill not belieue the truth. And if the ſentet of the archbiſhop had ſo occupied his ſenſe / that he hathe not ſmelte this frawde of the papiſtes / and the cawſe hereof: Diſtinct. 22. Diuiſ. 9. pag. 325.he mighte hauehave learned it of Gratian / who carieth this whole fable vntounto that ende.

Yow wipe not awaie the filthe off the times vvherin Voluſianus wrote / and him yow purge not: vvho (by that he is ſo deepe in his maſſe) appeareth to hauehave bene defiled with it. And where yow ſay / yt is not like that he would write any thing in that matter, which p. CCCCLXXVIIhe had not certeinly learned of worthy writers: I pray yow what worthyer writers coulde there be in this behalfe / then Denis biſhop off Corinthe / and Euſeb? I am ſure he coulde not fetche further then thes. So that from whom ſoeuer he took yt (yf he receiued yt of any): yt is cleare he receiued yt off thoſe / which being further off the Apoſtels times / can hauehave no credite herin / further thē they ſhew forthe the autors of their reporte. but to make reume for the archbiſhop / we muſt belieue thoſe thinges as certeine / which nether are now / nor yet were thē extante whē Euſebius wrote / which gathered his ſtorie off writers before his time: and not onelyonly teſtimonies which neuer were / but wherof the bare names are not to be founde. Wheras the maner of writers is / when they alledge any thinge that the former times had not ſpoken off / as at the finding of ſome greate treaſure / to note the meanes how that fell into their handes.

Againſt the autoritie alledged owte off Euſebius / that Denys was biſhop / is oppoſed that it is a negatiue argument of autorisie: which is an engine to wringe owte off the churches handes / a ſingular meanes which all the writers of our times / vſe againſte the forgeries off the Papiſtes. For when they reaſon againſt the forged Epiſtles / againſte Chriſoſtomes leytourgie / againſt the baſtard writinges of Auguſtine / &c. that there are thinges conteined in them which no writer of that age wherein they are ſuppoſed to hauehave writte / maketh mention off; the D. hath tawght an eaſie anſwer / that yt is an euill argument off autoritie negatiuely / and that yt followeth not that there were no ſuche thinges then / becawſe they were not mentioned in their writinges. Likewiſe when the biſhop of Saliſ. made this chalenge after performed / that yt coulde not be ſhewed owt off any alowed writer 600. Yeares after Chriſte / that there was any mention off ſuche / and ſuche thinges mainteined by poperie: the Anſw. hath with one worde / wiped awaie the profite off all thoſe trauailes. for yt maie be anſwered / that ſuche thinges were / althowghe none made mencion of them. The Papiſtes in their defences hauehave harde foreheades: but I thincke there is ſcarce founde amongeſte thē / that would not bluſhe at ſuche an anſwer. Yet this is almoſt the ſalue for all ſores / namely where I hauehave ſhewed / that in p. CCCCLXXVIIInone of the writers within certeine hundred yearés after Chriſte / which hauehave filled their bookes vvith the mention of biſhops / there is any the leaſte mention of an Archbiſhop. Againſte which ryot off anſwer oftentimes repeted / yt ſhall be ſufficiente once here to hauehave ſpoken generally.