A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 24 (3 of 3)

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 24 (3 of 3)

p. CCCCLXXVIIINow I come to that more proper to this place / that hiſtories are not ſo curious in calling men by their ſeuerall tytles: becauſe we vſe to call the biſhops of Canturbery, and Yorke, oftener by name of biſhop then archbiſhop. But he ſhould vnderſtand / that yt is one thing to ſpeake after the commen ſort: and an other to write to the approbation of the learned. And when there ys no kinde of writing ſo narrowly bound to the obſeruation of circumſtances off place / time / perſon / as a ſtorie: yt muſt bring a great miſt in it / to put no difference betwene a biſhop / and an Archbiſhop: conſidering that that perteineth to the policie off the church / vvherunto they had regard. So that althowgh he vſe ſome libertie off ſpeach in other places: yet in this place yt was more inſufferable / ād that ſo cōtinually / in Denys twiſe / in Iames / in the biſhop of Rome / of Alexandria / &c. he might withowt reprehenſion hauehave ſpoken ſo once / or twiſe: but him perpetually to call all Archbiſhops biſhops / I thinck yow vvill hardly perſwade any man off iudgement. And if there had bene any ſuch titles allowed: yt would hauehave appeared in the ſuperſcriptions off biſhops to archbiſhops. At leaſt the lower degrees off Deacons / and Elders would hauehave acknowledged it / as both dutie / and honeſt ciuilitie requireth: otherwiſe if the archbiſhops had bene froward / they would not hauehave red the letters. But not Euſebius onelyonly / Denys the Biſhop / who wrote vntounto the church off Athenes / ſo called him euen in that place / where Euſeb. li. 3. ca. 4. & 4. 23.(if he could truly) he would hauehave awakened thoſe of Athenes / with the honorable mention off Denis their former archbiſhop: and not hauehave let paſſe that weight off autoritie / to hauehave made his admonition more ſounding.

Furthermore if Euſebius had ſpoken ſo vnproperly: he is yet to be charged with further confuſion. For he aſſigneth hym a pariſh / which is a territorie belonging vntounto a ſimple biſhop: and not a prouince / which is an archbiſhops kingdom. Yf therfore he confounded archbiſhop with biſhop: at leaſt he ſhould hauehave ſpoken p. CCCCLXXIXdinſtinetly off their charges. Laſt off all / how idle a phariſie this is off Deniſes archbiſhoprick / may be conſidered foraſmuch as Euſeb. in both places by me alledged / calleth him the firſt biſhop off Athenes. And that he was firſt in thoſe partes may eaſely be ſeene / for that it was the wiſdome of the holy goſt / to ſettle firſt the Goſpell in the mother townes / and head places of dominion…: that from thence it might hauehave paſſadge to places rownd about / as the practiſe in the Actes doth declare. Now if he were the firſt biſhop choſen after the conuerſion of Athenes: by the D. ſaying he was made Archbiſhop / before there were any other biſhops to ouerſee. But foraſmuch as tharchbiſhop is in the nombre of thoſe vvhichwhich hang of other / and that there could be no archbiſhop vvhere there were no biſhops / nor biſhop where there were no churches rownd about: it is browght to paſſe / that there being no biſhops in thoſe partes / at that time vvhen Saint Paul ordeined Denys biſhop: he can by no meanes be thowght to hauehave ordeined him archbiſhop. And that vvhichwhich I hauehave ſaied in this point againſt the archbiſhoprick off Denis (the laſt onelyonly excepted) is to be vnderſtanded off Iames / Titus / Timothe / &c.

Yf a ſpade be but a ſpade / and a fig but a fig: then a biſhop is but a biſhop. Then alſo Eraſmus ſaying (alledged pag. 405.) Diuiſ. 10. pag. 325.that Timothe was a biſhop / and no vvhere that he vvas an archbiſhop / affirmeth that he was but a biſhop. Nether doth this make againſt, but for me. For if Eraſmus ſpeaking but of two / called one of them archbiſhop: is it like that Euſebius ſpeaking of ſo many / ſuppoſed archbiſhops / called neuer one of them by their proper name? nether vvill I ſtick to confeſſe / that Eraſmus deceiued vvith the corruption of times vvherin he liued / ſpake as he thowght: imagining Titus an Archbiſhop / as left in Creta an Iſle / and Timothe a ſimple biſhop / as left in one cytie. But it is good to obſerue by the vvay / how the Anſ. building vvith one hand / ouerthroweth vvith the other. For let all men that hauehave but a graine of ſalt / iudge how likely it is / that Timothe was Archbiſhop: whē ſo many writers both ould and new / yea ſome in thoſe times that archbiſhops were / ſpeaking of him: not one calleth him archbiſhop / but all biſhop / as in his treatiſe may appeare. but thus their tounges muſt be confounded / that build vpp Babylon. p. CCCCLXXXPa. 404.As for Titus vvhom Eraſmus calleth archbiſhop / to make his autoritie of any vveight / he muſte needes raiſe that title ether of ſome name giuen vntounto him in the ſcripture: or of ſome effect which he was knowen to excute / proper to an archbiſhop: or els off ſome auncient writer. But he could not raiſe it of any title the ſcripture giueth him / there being none ſuch: nor off any thing Titus did / foraſmuch as there is nothing doon off him / vvhichwhich the Anſ. affirmeth not to be commen to eueryevery biſhop / nothing preſcribed to him / which was not preſcribed to Timothe / whom Eraſmus calleth ſimply biſhop: nor off any auncient vvriter / there being none browght / nor as I am perſwaded can be browght: therfore it is cleare / that Eraſmus calling Titus archbiſhop hath no weight: as one vvhichwhich ſpake according to the corruption off time / vvherin he liued.

The reſt of this diuiſ. is anſwered before: for the next / let yt In 3 diui. pag. 320.be iudged how yow hauehave ouerthrowne that alledged / towching Timothe / and Tite being Euangeliſtes. I will alſo refer to the readers iudgement / what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie: and in vvhat place the D. vvill hauehave vsus receiue mens autoritie / vvhen he vvill not hauehave them controlled by other men. How by this meanes he that hath the firſt place to ſpeake / may ſtop the mouth off all that follow: foraſmuch as yt ſhall be vnlawfull for them / ether owt off the autors vvhichwhich the firſt ſpeaker alledged / or any other / to oppoſe a contrary ſentence. How alſo this being ſo vnlearnedly doon off me / is notwithſtanding learned in him: which hath vſed it diuers times. I leaue alſo to be iudged / how to the pourpoſe he hath alledged thes examples off Iuſtice, and cheif Iuſtice, ſeing I helped him with this kinde off diuiſion: and yt might hauehave eaſely appeared that my argument vvas / that forſomuch as the Scoliaſt called them ſimply biſhope: therfore yt could not be thowght / that he eſteemed them archbiſhops / vvhichwhich is oppoſite mēber in this diuiſion. Laſt of all how abſurdly ys it ſaied / that he which calleth an archbiſhop a biſhop / ſpeaketh properly? Whē he that hath litle more then learned his Grāmer / knoweth that it is a Trope / vvherin the generall is taken for the ſpeciall: which is contrary to proper ſpeach.Diuiſ. 12. pag. 326. &c.

To the firſt reaſon / I hauehave ſhewed vvhat mighte lead Eraſmus p. CCCCLXXXI/ to cal Titus archbiſhop ouer Crete / and not Timothe ouer Epheſus. To the ſeconde / I am content that my reaſon off framing titles according to times, be nothing worth: yf Eraſmus in a matter off diuinitie / and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his ſighte / could not be deceiued: which erred in many thinges, and in thoſe he ſawe was ofte more **That is halting of both ſydes.Cretian / thē Chriſtian. The third (Eraſmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the cuſtome off that age wherin him ſelfe lyued, for that there was then no biſhop of Crete, …s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued) ys ſenſles. Conſydering that my anſwer is apparante / that in ſpeaking of Titus / he applied him ſelfe to the couſtome which had preuailed in all places / off calling the biſhops off the metrapolitane cyties / archbiſhops: which this anſwer towchech not. Let him ſhewe one approued autor for the name of archbiſhop / or patriarch once onelyonly vſed in Euſebius time / or before / to note the ſuperioritie off one biſhop ouer all his fellowes / and wee will all clap our handes vntounto him: if he can not / then yt ys ſhame to ſay / thoſe names were vſuall in Euſebius tyme. That Nicephorus ſpake no otherwiſe off Victor then yow hauehave ſet downe / yt is all one to me: which pourpoſed to ſhew that he ſpake otherwiſe / then ether Euſebius / or the trwth would ſuffer / hauing regard vntounto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors, are ſuch as they are no more beficiall to my cawſe / then if I had vſed their very wordes. For my anſwer made vntounto Voluſianus / and Eraſmus / that men vſe to ſpeake / and to thincke for the moſte parte of thinges paſt / by the meaſure off thinges preſent: yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with / yet yt is ſo manifeſt / and ſenſible / that I durſt barely leaue yt to the conſcience off all. and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung / but a litle into the hand of his conſciēce: I dowbt not but he would alſo confeſſe yt? Howbeit we hauehave a manifeſt example in the Centuries / which confeſſing there was no Metropolitane Cent. 3. c. 7. pag. 368.in Cyprians time / call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius / whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome: whē all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him. Laſte off all / when yt happened vntounto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane / which am an enemy to that eſtate (as I am alſo charged therwith by the p. CCCCLXXXIIpag. 470.D.) following therin the cuſtome off the tymes which folowed: pag. 470.how muche more might that befall to others / which had no ſuch combat with that office? That next conteining vaine excuſes / to ſalue ether his ignorance / or his vnfaithfullnes / I hauehave aaDiuiſ. 1. pag. 319.anſwered. His eſcape that Iames called biſhop by Euſebius (to whom may be adioined bbin catalogoſcripilluſt.Ierome) yet might be Archbiſhop, I hauehave ccDiuiſ. 9. pag. 325cōfuted. The plenty off teſtimonies for the Archbiſhop, browght now / hideth not his pouertie in his fyrſt boke. for all may know that this harueſt cam in ſithens. For the expoſitiō of Ireneus / which interpreteh (they, eueryevery one ſeuerally: yf they ſeuerally ordeined biſhope eueryevery one in his circuit / ſo it be vnderſtanded with the churches conſent, as is before ddin 2. Tract. Diuiſ. 14. pag. 329.declared: I am well content.

Yf the error off my argument had bene ſo groſſe, as yowr ſight had perceiued yt: I had bin ſure to hauehave heard of yt. Whatſoeuer / and how many cawſes ſoeuer yow aſſigne of appoincting an archbiſhop: yet this is a perfect diuiſion off the ſubiecte / that forſomuch as the Archbiſhopricke (if any owght to be) muſte needes be both in ſome perſon / and place: not found by thapoſtels ordination which knewe the beſt gouernment / nether in that perſon / nor place both moſt fitteſt / and moſte likeſt to receiue yt: yt muſte folow that yt owght not to be. As for yowr exception off the time: fyrſt yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to hauehave ſtore off anſwer / to make fowre off one. for wheras the tyme, and perſons to be gouerned, the ſuppreſsion off ſectes, and peace off the church▪ are put for ſeuerall cawſes: yt ys manifeſt that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another / but in reſpecte off the perſons gouerned: nor the perſons them ſelues / but in reſpecte of their contentions / and alteracion of diſpoſition. Then it ſhall appeare after / that the tymes off perſequution ſuche as thoſe) were the fitteſt for that office: yf that had bene conuenient.

This Archbiſhop ſaied to be the officer off order / confoundeth all order / and changeth all: an Euangeliſt into a biſhop / a biſhop Diuiſ. 15. pag. 329.into an Archbiſhop / an archbiſhop into an Apoſtel / an Apoſtle into an Archbiſhop which folies are before confuted. If S. Iohn were Archbiſhop / or did an Archbiſhops office in thoſe places / where he abode: then the other Apoſtle. in their circuites p. CCCCLXXXIIIdid the like / and were likewiſe Archbiſhops ouer them / and the biſhop there. ſo it foloweth that ether there were no Archbiſhops in the Apoſtles tymes: or if there were any / they had nothing to doo / their offices being not yet fallen / but in the Apoſtles handes. And if the Anſ. will needes hauehave S. Iohns antoritie / the poſe to meaſure owt the Archbiſhops autoritie yt muſte folow that foraſmuch as he had the care / and ouerſighte of all churches in the world: the Archbiſhop muſt hauehave the ſame. For the next ſection / lett the reader iudge / whether I hauehave delte ſyncerely: and whether in ſaying Anaclete, and Anicete are but ſuſpected, although he ad (not without iuſte cawſe) he leaue to them ſome credit. For the next alſo (of the yeare wherin the Nicene councell was houlden) being not to pourpoſe / althowghe I could mainteine the account I folowed / I will leaue the Anſ. in his earneſt diſputation: whoſe practiſe is to handle trifles earneſtly / and earneſt thinges triflingly

The leape is as great as I hauehave ſaied / and conſequently as Diuiſ. 18. Pag. 331. &c.daūgerous to tharchbiſhops neck. For yt falleth ſtill forth / that for the ſpace off 300. yeares from the time off the Apoſtles / there is no ſyllable in any one approued autor / off any ether archbiſhop / or Metrapolitane. for as for the Canons attributed vntounto the Apoſtles (thoſe onelyonly excepted vvhichwhich are to be found in their writinges) being as is agreed amongeſt men off any iudgement / gathered off diuers councels in ſondry times: that which is here alledged off the Anſ. was by all likelihood drawen owt off the councell off Antioch / hauing almoſt the very vvordes theroff ſauing as yt cometh to pas / yt being ſomewhat later / is ſomewhat vvorſe. The councell of Antioch / a good while after that of Nice / can not make the fall off tharchbiſhop les daungerous. As for the fable off Archbiſhops in Englande in Euleutherius tyme / yt is before confuted. So that if a Metrapolitane were all one with an Archbiſhop: yet he is deſtitute of the teſtimonie off the pureſt / and beſt tymes. Where the D. thincketh thoſe wordes off the councell off Nice (Let the auncient cuſtome be kepte) will ſaue his necke, and his body from harme: he is deceiued. For this word auncient / being in nomber off thoſe / which hauehave relation / and depend of others: ſignifieth a greater / or ſmaller time according to the thinges vvherwith it is cōpared / or hath relatiō vntounto. ſo that that maie p. CCCCLXXXIIIIbe / and often is called auncient / which is but of very fewe yeares: and vvhichwhich other ſometime can not be ſo called / withowt a greater nomber. The biſhops therfore comparing that decree / with other made at that tyme / and not before / called that an auncient cuſtome.

And yt can be no ſtraunge kinde off ſpeach for the miniſters being aſſembled together / to ſpeake off a matter continued a ſcore off prouinciall Synodes / and houlden in the ſpace off 10. yeares / after this ſorte: In ſuche and ſuch thinges, vvee vvill kepe our old couſtome. And that yt could not be long before the councell off Nice beſide no teſtimony to the contrary ▪ Aeneas Sy…uius gyueth this for vsus: before the Nicene councell eueryevery biſhop lyued Epiſt. 288vntounto him ſelf, and ſmale regard vvas had to the biſhops of home. But admit yt had bene ſo before the councell off Nice / 20. yea 30. yeares yet by yowr owne counte / there is no mention off him all that time which I hauehave affirmed / which is 300. yeares after our Sauiour Chriſtes aſcenſion. Now therfore that the auncientie off the Metrapolitane / appeareth not by this councell to be other / then I alledged: Let vsus ſee what credite yt owghte to hauehave to proue that this decree off theirs was good. For therunto the D. regardeth when he ſaith / the notable, and famous councell off Nice, muſte be off all wiſe, and learned men nexte vntounto the ſcriptures reuerenced, &c. It is ſure that hauing regard to the deciſion off the different / touching the perfect vnitie off ſubſtance / of our Sauiour Chriſt with God the Father / it giuing ſentence vppon the vnfallible word off God / is worthy to be reuerenced. But if the D. will hauehave their ſoundnes in that poincte / autoriſe the reſt / and that our reuerence to yt ſhould cloſe vp our mouthes / from demaunding from whence the other canons come / what ground they hauehave: yt is that which we can by no meanes conſent vntounto.

And that yt may appeare how iuſtly we call this canon off the councell / vntounto the towch ſtone of the word off God / let it be conſidered what is ordeined off them in the 12. and 23. Canons after Ruffin: where they preſcribe ſeuen yeares vntounto one fallen in. 1. lib. 6. c.to Idolatrie / all which tyme (althowgh very repentante) they forbid him the ſupper off the lord: where alſo yt kepeth owte one p. CCCCLXXXVwhich coming from the warr retourneth thether againe / by the ſpace off thirtene years / &c. which ſeueritie (to let pas the reſt) as yt is againſte the rule of S. Paule: ſo yt could not but put a halter 2. Cor. 2. 72 Cor 2:7in the deuiles hand / to ſnare a nōber of ſoules with all. what corruption there was further at that time / ether by ignorance / or ambition / may appeare by that if one Paphenutius had not beene: they had all concluded againſt the honorable ſocietie off biſhops 1. lib. Soc. 11. cap./ elders / and Deacons vvith their lawfull wiues. Yf the Anſ. ſay / thes errors were but the errors off thoſe biſhops onelyonly / but the canon off a Metrapolitane hath beſide their allowance / the approbation off the former times alſo / ſo that althowgh their ſingle autoritie be not hable to waie yt downe / yet helped vvith the auncient couſtome before / yt will carie yt away: I anſwer Ibid.that in the ſame councell appeareth / that to thoſe choſen vntounto the miniſtrie vnmaried / yt was not lawfull to take any wife afterwardes: onelyonly being maried before entrance into the myniſtrie / it was lawfull for them to vſe the benefite of that mariadge. And Paphenutius ſheweth / that not onelyonly this was before that councell: but was an aunciēt tradition of the churche / vvhichwhich both him ſelfe / and the reſte off the councell reſted in. what ſoeuer credit therfore in any reſpecte / cometh vntounto the Metrapolitane by this ſixt canō: the ſame in eueryevery: point cometh to this ſo great a corruptiō / that nether ſingle miniſters might mary / nor thoſe which entred maried / might after death of their wiues mary againe Yf the fame of the councell can not wipe away the infamy of this: nether can it of that: and if the aunciēt traditiō of the church / doo not autoriſe the one: nether can aunciēt couſtome / autoriſe the other.

The Anſ. before / for one onelyonly error touching rebaptiſing / Pag. 147.caſteth away the vvhole councell of Carthage: I will not deale ſo rowghly with the councell off Nice onelyonly I deſire that their autoritie be lifted vp no higher / then yt hath ſtate off the vvord off God. Howbeit it muſt not be let goo in this canon off Nice (vvhichwhich is the ouerthrowe of all that the Anſ hath ſaid before) that ſaying this vvas oulde couſtome, it confeſſeth therby that it vvas no ordinance of God vvheras if it came from S. Peter / Paule / &c. they vvould hauehave ſaid according to the inſtitution off the Apoſtles. it is alſo vvorthy to be obſerued / that the iuriſdiction the p. CCCCLXXXVIMetrapolitanès had in their prouinces / was before onelyonly voluntary / and vncōſtrained: for that this was the firſte time / that any lawe paſſed of yt: which noted off me in an other place / is here well confirmed. ſo that thes wordes the old couſtome, which the D. putteth ſo great affaince in / if he make his accōpts well / ſhall be found to hauehave bene a reed of Egypte vntounto him: wherupon he leaning / is not ſtaied but pricked.

To proue that the name off archbiſhop was not before the Diuiſ. 19. pag. 332.councell off Nice / nor within three hundred yeares after the aſcenſion off our Sauiour / I ſhewe that there is no mention off him in Theophilus / Ignatius / Clemens Alexandrinus / Iuſtine / Martyr / Ireneus / Tertullian / Origine / Cyprian / in the hiſtories owt off which Euſebius gathereth his ſtorie / nor in Euſebius / nor (in a word) in no alowed writer / nether greeke nor latin / within that ſpace. The D. aſketh whether the councell off Nice, Antioche, Epiphanius, &c. be not as good? all which are bothe later writers then thoſe I alledged: and after the 300. years before aſſigned. So that to proue the antiquitie off the name off Archbiſhop / and Metrapolitane / he ſaith in effect / yt is all one to alledge the ſtories / and writers which came after / as thoſe which wente before: and to proue that thes names were with in 300. yeares after Chriſt / he alledgeth ſtories / and other writers which teſtyfie thes titles to hauehave bene after 300. yeares: which how abſurde yt ys / all men vnderſtand. And what likelihoode off trwth yt hath / that thes names were within 300. yeares / and od / when as not one onelyonly writer hauing ſo often occaſion to ſpeake off them / doth once name them: it may be conſidered partly of that the biſhop writeth. For as he aſked Harding / vvas there no man in the vvorld for the ſpace off 600. yeares, hable to expreſſe the name off vniuerſall Art. 4. diuiſ. 31.biſhop: So I aſke the D. was there none in the world by the ſpace off 300. yeares / and od / hable to expreſſe the metrapolitans name? no man for the ſpace almoſt of 400. yeares / hable to expreſſe the archbiſhops name? partly alſo I leaue yt to be conſidered / off that I hauehave ſaied before.

Then he muſt vnderſtand / that as thoſe ſtories / and writers he alledgeth / make nothing to proue that antiquitie which he p. CCCCLXXXVIIſuppoſeth: ſo they being further from the Apoſtles times / and nearer vntounto the time off Antichriſt / are not off ſo good credit / to proue the lawfullnes off that ether office / or name / as if they had had teſtimonie of the purer times. moreouer off thes ſixe autors which he maketh mention off / two wroote after 400. yeares: all the reſt wrote from abowte 350. yeares / vntounto the prick off 400. And althowgh he hath browght owt ſo ſmale a number: yet he muſt be faine to cut off halfe off them / as thoſe which make no mencion off the archbiſhop. for nether Chryſoſtome / nor Ierome / no not Ambroſe (as ſhall appeare) in their ſo great workes / make any mencion off him. Where I ſhewed that as the ced… off Liban can not be hydden amongeſte the Box trees, ſo the archbiſhop coulde not hauehave bene hydden in the ancient vvritinges amongeſt the other Myniſters: and further / that if he vvere, he vvas contemned off them, vvhichwhich once vvoulde not defyle their pen by vvriting off him: the Anſw. as thowghe thes perteined not to the matter / vnderunder coulor of calling them frumpes, paſſeth by them wheras a few ſuch frumpes vvill breake the archbiſhops backe / if they be not better looked vntounto.

The Anſ. can neuer be holden in the railes off any lawfull forme off diſputacion. All men ſee that vvhatſoeuer he heapeth Diuiſ. 2…. Pag. 3, 8▪ &c.vp / toucheth not my reply. For he owght to improue the ſignification vvhichwhich I hauehave ſet downe / off the word Metrapolitan biſhop: which is, to be nothing els then biſhop of that cytie, vvhichwhich yt pleaſeth the Emperour, or Prince to make cheife: and therfore that …f the office ſwell no more then the name / there is great differēce betwene his / and tharchbiſhops name. This becawſe he could not doo / the ſignification being ſo cleare: he ſtarteth a ſyde / and goeth abowte to proue / that Metropolitane and Archbiſhop are taken for the ſame. when the queſtion is not here how they are taken / but what the wordes ſignifie. If he had ſhewed that the word metrapolitane biſhop / is as loftie in ſignification / as the word archbiſhop: then he had ſpoken to the pourpoſe. Beſide this / in a matter that is in controuerſie amongeſt writers / he maketh his profes by bare autorities: the controuerſie being not onelyonly betwene the Ciuili…s, and Canoniſtes, but alſo betwene others off our tyme.

p. CCCCLXXXVIIILikewiſe it is to be obſerued / how cuill he hath peeced thes together / bringing in M Caluin contrary vntounto Maiſter Fox / in that the one maketh a Metrapolitane / and Archbiſhop to differ from a Patriarck / the other maketh them all one. M. Fox alſo to differ from himſelfe: which in the ſecond place alledged out off him / maketh difference betwene a metrapolitane / and primate: in the third / maketh them all one. Beſide that alſo he is beſide the forowgh off his cawſe / he gaineth not that vvhichwhich he goeth abowght. For let vsus admit that a metrapolitane / and Archbiſhop are taken for the ſame: yet therof foloweth not / that the name off an archbiſhop was in the church as ſoone as the name of Metrapolitane. For althowgh a Prophet / and a ſeer be all one / aſtranger / 1. Sam. 9. 9. Cicero 1 officiorū1 Sam 9:9and an ennemie in war betokened one thing: yet nether hauehave the wordes the ſame ſignification / nether were they all at one time / but came one after another. For I would gladly know whether yt ſeeme vntounto him / that all thes titles Metrapolitane / Archbiſhop / Primat / and Patriarch / came in at a clap. if there be no likehoode in this: yt foloweth that his autors meaning is not / that thes names were all at the councell off Nice: but after they crepte into the church / were attributed vntounto one / and the ſame office off metrapolitanſhip / ſpecified in that councell. For the autoritie ouer other biſhops / which is gone abowte by this Nicene councell / to be proued like to that of our archbiſhops: that I make not vvith the Anſw. a confuſion off all / I will (God willing) ſhew in place / how the Nicene / and Antiochen Metrapolitane / hauehave beſide the name / almoſt nothing in commen with our Archbiſhops.

Here will be no confeſſion: yt was not enowghe for the Anſw. before to alledge thes forged canons withowt correction / Diuiſ. 20. pag. 334.yea with commendation: but euen now alſo detected / rather then he will yeald to the trwth / the commē ennemy muſt hauehave the aduantage. He will not forſooth greatly ſticke in the defenſe of thes canons: then he will not giuegive them quite ouer. There is no ſmale controuerſie (he ſaith) abowte the number of canons of this councell: and a litle after / there is great difference in writers for the number of the canons. Let him name one (Papiſtes excepted) that euer moued controuerſie abowte this number of 70 and 80. canons which he talketh off. Athanaſius p. CCCCLXXXIXin an Epiſtle that he as ſome thincke writeth, &c. what ſome are thoſe? Pighius / Hoſius / Harding / and their likes / and they doo but ſay yt: for that they did thincke ſo / there being nether coulor / nor ſhadow off trwth in that ſo kold a deuiſe / yt is hardly to be thowght. He ſaith after / he hath doone nothing ſtraunge in alledging thes canons. I graunte: for he hath thoſe ſpoken of before / to kepe him companie. And in the next diui. to make vp the matter / he alledged not thoſe canons as the vndowbted canons of the councell off Nice, but as probable. Is it in deed probable / that there was ſuch filthe in the church / in the time of the Nicene councell / as thoſe canons you alledged make mencion of?

The reaſons wherby he would bring ſome credit vntounto thes canons / are to light. For where he reckeneth vp certeine thinges found in other writers / not conteined in thoſe canons: he ſhould hauehave knowen that there might be other thinges handled in that councell / which vvere not browght into canons. For example / that which he reciteth owte off Ambroſe / towching the ſecond mariage off the clerckes, was talked on in the councell / as I hauehave ſhewed before: but yet there was no canon made off yt / as may appeare by the ſtories before alledged. For yt was browght in / not as a thing wherof they would conſult: but alledged as a reaſon by Paphnutius / to bar that which they would otherwiſe hauehave decreed. As for the councell off Arles: yt ſpeaketh not off the councell off Nice / but onelyonly off a great Synode: and to reſtreigne that to that councell / is but a frierly note / which the gatherer off the councels maketh / to get ſome credite to thoſe 70. canons / which the Anſ. would thruſte vppon vsus. There were thinges alledged in the councell / which thoſe nigh the times wherin yt was holden / might come to the knowledge off by reporte off thoſe preſent at the councell: which make nothing for profe off a greater number off canons▪ For it is not like that the Canons of the Nicene councell / wheroff eueryevery Biſhop throwgh the world (as the Biſhop off Saliſbury proueth) had a copie / were loſte. And if there were ſuche a nomber as he woulde hauehave vsus belieue: yet when the auncient writers which folowe ſo nere the councell / or liued in that time / could not come to the knowledge off them: ys it like that this vpſtarte / not led vvith any deſyre off ſearche off antiquitie p. CCCCXC/ but as appeareth with a deueliſhe appetite of aduancing the ſeate off Antechriſte / ſhould diſcouer ſuche a hoord of Canons? But if this new recorder ſeeme vntounto you to hauehave browghte the other canons to light: then belike he hath thoſe yow cite owt off the Councell off Arles / off Ierome / and Ambroſe. if not (wherin I refer the reader vntounto the Canons / not hauing the booke:) then yt might hauehave bene argumente / that thoſe canons came not owt of any ſtore howſe off learned monumentes / but owt of his one forge.

Yow ſaie yow agree with the biſhop off Salisbury in his reply againſte Harding touching the canon he alledgeth. The trwth is that you hauehave done the beſte yow can / to ouerthrowt the whole defenſe off the biſhop in that behalfe: vvhichwhich ſtandeth in profe that thoſe be counter faicte / and that there were no other canons off the Nicene councell / then are commonly extant. And where yow ſay / Hardinges canon muſte needes be counterfaict, becawſe yt is contrary to the canons off that councell, but that which you hauehave alledged, and in thoſe poinctes which you hauehave alledged them, to be of the ſame ſubſtance the. 6. and 7. firſte thoſe newe canons being off one litter / yf you giuegive credite to one / yow can not take yt away altogether from the reſt. Secondly all thoſe canons vvhichwhich are not contrary to any thing determined in the councell off Nice / hauehave by this anſwer gotten that credit / which the autoritie / and name of the Nicene councell can giuegive them. So that a nomber off wicked thinges which the Councell off Nice ſpake not againſte / conteined vvithin thes canons / are commenced by the Anſ. for decrees off the great Nicene Councell / which were long after decreed in the Popes kitchin.

Thirdly where he ſaith the: 25. 26. 27. differ from the 6. and 7. but in number, and not in ſubſtance: beſide that he taketh ſtill for graunted vvhichwhich he ſhould proue / he imagineth all thoſe learned fathers of that Councell / deſ…ute of iudgement / and commen ſenſe: which in ſetting downe one / and the ſelf ſame canon fowre times / might worthely hauehave bene eſteemed as bablyng dyuines / as Bat…us a Pocte. And if the Councell had bene ſo groſly ouerſeen: yet how cometh yt to paſſe / that that eſcaped the abridgers? Which are ſaid for ſhortnes ſake / to hauehave browghte the 80, Canons into 70. p. CCCCLXCILaſte of al / to make this āſwer good / the reader muſt belieue / … onelyonly that ſome of thes canōs which this forger hath added be true / and ſome falſe: but (for as much as in the Canōs alledged / the D. nowe ſeeth that all in them cōteined / can not befathered of the Nicene councell) that in the ſame canon / one peece is trwly / and another falſly fathered. As if we ſhould not onelyonly not take thē for bretherne / which were begotten of one father: but in one / and the ſame child / to eſteme that the head / and the foote is baſe / and the armes / and legges with the reſte off the body / begotten in lawfull matrimony. Thus yt cometh to paſſe / that as the deformitie off the viſadge is not helped / but made worſe by peinting ſo the D. faulte / which mighte hauehave had ſome excuſe in that he was abuſed / by this vaine defence is inexcuſable. Where vppon I will leaue to the reader (which foloweth in the nexte diuiſi.) whether vppon lighte credit vntounto ſome diſſembling papiſtes, he receiued thes thinges with owte examination: and vvhether in avoiding that / he maketh him ſelfe giltie off a greater faulte.

Where hauehave I refuſed ambroſe for an hiſtoricall witnes? perteineth this to the ſtory / whether an Archbiſhop be profitable for Diuiſ. 22. & 23. pag. 336.the church / or no? whether he were or no / perteineth: but whether meet / or vnmeet / is vvithowt the boundes off ſtory. Yow had ſet downe that Ambroſe alowed of an Archbiſhop: prouoked by me / you can not ſhew off his allowance. And yet becawſe yow put me in remembrance off the ſtory vvitnes / whē I conſidered that nether the reſte of his writinges / nor other writers off the ſame auncientie / and quarters / as Ierome / and Auguſtine / mention an Archbiſhop: yt made me ſuſpecte greatly / that there was corruption in that place. After ſeing howe proudly / and ſwellingly he ſpeaketh off biſhops / and howe baſely off kinges / ſaying the biſhops are gold, and kinges in compariſon off them but lead, and kinges muſte put their nekes vnderunder the knees of the biſhops, and kiſſe their right hād (which ſpeaches are …a… vnlike Ambroſe ſtile of kinges): conſidering alſo that Eraſm. nippeth that booke in the head / I aſſure my ſelfe that yt is a falſe Ambroſe / ād therfore that teſtimonie to be of no force. Wherin I am yet further cōfirmed by Ambroſe owne teſtimonie / who ſaying it is comely, that there p. CCCCXCII1. li. offic. cap. 50.ſhould be equalitie in the churches: which taketh away biſhops dominion. For ſeing that can not be vnderſtanded off the whole companie of the church: yt is manifeſt that it muſte be reſtreined vntounto the myniſters theroff. and ſauing this aduantage / I anſwer to the next diuiſ. that yt ſhall appeare after how ſtraunge the name off the Archbiſhop vvas at that time.

For that alledged out off the Centuries / Ambroſe was Metrapolitane off diuers churches ioined together: beſydes that yow take that for graunted which is in cōtrouerſy / that is to ſay that the name of Metrapolitane / and Archbiſhop be all one: yow owghte to hauehave ſhewed the reaſons vvherby they ſay ſo. For ſeing they hauehave not that they vvrote by reuelation: in a matter of controuerſie they owghte no further to be belieued / then they ſhew reaſon. Otherwiſe I can oppoſe alſo autoritie which ſaith in plaine wordes / Ambroſe vvas a biſhop not of a vvhole prouince, or of Iohannes Coſterius in vita Ambroſ.many cyties, but off one onelyonly citie. whoſe teſtomony yet is ſo muche more off credyt / then that off the Centuries / as by a neerer ſighte into Ambroſ. workes which he reuewed / he was better able to giuegive iudgement in this matter: then they vvhichwhich occupied in reading off ſo many / could not performe that diligente in all / vvhichwhich he in that autor he eſpecially laboured in.

That I ſaid of the Archbiſhop (if any vvere) ruling the action wherin the biſhops vvere ordeined / and after the action ended hauing no more autoritie thē the reſte / is vnconfuted / by any writer yow alledge. Caluin (the ignorance of whoſe writinges, with all otther, yow obiecte vntounto me) doth not onelyonly not ſpeake againſt yt: but ſaith in ſome reſpect more then I. For I ſpeake this onelyonly of the Archbiſhop / alledged owt of the counterfaict Ambroſe: but he (as I hauehave ſhewed) ſaieth generally of thoſe auncient times / that the Diuiſ. 71. pag. 418.office off the Archbiſhop vvas rarely vſed. And that I ſaid not (as yow vſe) withow reaſon: but vvith thoſe reaſons which yow lifting at / can not moue. For vvhere I ſhewed yt not hke that one Archbiſhop ordeined biſhops / but other biſhops with him / Diuiſ. 24. pag. 336.vvhoſe voices he gathered / the auncient councells expreſly forbidding that: yow ſay yow ſhewed yt not ſtraunge at that time, for a biſhop alone to ordeine miniſters. Which thing howe vntrue yt is / I p. CCCCXCIIIrefer my ſelfe to that before ſaid. And if yow had ſhewed yt: yet in 2. Tra.yow making difference betweene a miniſter / and a biſhop / in prouing that one biſhop onelyonly ordeined myniſters / hauehave not proued that one biſhop ordeined biſhops. And in ſaying that Ambroſe is to be vnderſtanded, of that done by all biſhops in all places: yow make them all gilty off breach off canons off the generall councells in that behalfe. Which how vntrwe yt is / may likewiſe appeare by that before ſaid. Then how vaine is yt / that for that the people had in 2. Tra.to doo in the biſhops election, one biſhop alone withowt other his fellowes, did ordeine? After he aſketh. VVhere is nowe my diſtinction of election, and ordination. Firſte I declared that they being for the moſte parte diſtinguiſhed / are ſometime taken for one. Secondly I hauehave vttered no word wherby it is once towched. Thirdly yf I had taken yt away: yet: he ſame toucheth not this matter / as he ſaith / but nether ſheweth / nor can ſhew how. onelyonly hauing nothing to anſwer / he ſpeaketh in the clowdes: where he is ſo far from being vnderſtood of others / that I thinke he vnderſtood not him ſelfe.

His anſwer (Ambroſe mente not off the Archbiſhop in the prouince where him ſelfe was biſhop) is firſte vpholden by flatte begging of Diuiſ. 25. Pag. 337:diuers thinges in controuerſie: as whether an archbiſhop / and metrapolitan be all one / whether Ambroſe were metrapolitane / and whether being / he had autoritie him ſelfe to forbid ſuch diſorders. Secondly that he alledgeth to remoue yt from Ambroſes prouince / maketh rather againſt him. For if that corruption he complained of / were in all places: then it was in his prouince alſo: Where he ſaith I am deceiued, that I thincke he wrote his booke for his owne dioceſe onelyonly: my wordes importe no ſuch thing. yt is enowghe for me yf in the prouince where he was / this corruptiō had place: the further he will ſtrech thoſe wordes / the depelier he woundeth the gouernement off the archbiſhop. But this is more then dutie / vntounto that counterfaicte Ambroſe.

What truth this deuiſe hath / I am cōtent yt be iudged of the Diuiſ 26. Pag. 337.reaſons before alledged. my quotacion off the Centuries, was eaſie to find? if yow had not helpe of the table / the time yt ſelfe would quickly hauehave directed yow. yt is in the begin̄ing of the chapter which yow alledged / ſo that if yow had red any more then ſerued for yowr tourne: yow ſhould hauehave found how he affirming / that in thoſe p. CCCCXCIIIIdaies there were but three principall degrees off the …lergie / biſhop / elder / and deacon: alledgeth for profe Ambroſe. The name off Archbiſhop owte off Sozomen. maketh not againſte this. conſidering that he writing abowte the yeare 430. calleth Simeon Archbiſhop / according to the time wherin he vvrote / and not vvherin Simion liued. Nether doth the place off Epiphanius (alledged after owte of the Centuries) make againſte this. For albeit the name of Archbiſhop was in his time / vvhichwhich liued ether in Ambroſes time / or ſomewhat before: yet there is no likelihoode that it was then receiued in the latin churches / ſeing none off their writers of thoſe times / once make mention off that name. And it is certein that it being a greeke name / was firſte receiued in the greeke churches / and Eaſte partes / or euer it came into the latin / and weaſte.

Nowe for this great ſhewe the A. bringeth into the ſtage / they are ſcarce worth the looking on: they ſhall hauehave therfore a ſhorte anſwer. their autoritie ſhall be cōſidered after / being here altogether owte off place / and contrary to the litle off his chapter / and (according to the oulde couſtome off repetitions) propounded after: I here therfore deale onelyonly with the names. And firſte for that off Metrapolitan: yt is ſhewed that it is not the ſame in ſignification with the Archbiſhops: yt is confeſſed that it was in the time off the councell off Nice / before which yt can not be ſhewed / in any allowed writer. for where the D. citeth the Centuries / which call Cyprian vvhichwhich was before it / Metrapolitan: they doo ſo call him according to the couſtome of times vvhichwhich folowed / as is before proued owt off their owne teſtimonie. As for the name of Primat / the firſte tydinges of it is a great while after 400. yeares: vvhichwhich is vvithout our cōpas. for the name off an Archbiſhop / the firſte mention alledged off him in any councell / is nere vppon 500. years.

Where yt is ſaid / the name of an Archbiſhop is attributed vntounto Athanaſius: he ſhould hauehave tould who doth attribute that name / and then he had had his anſwer. For nether in his worckes / nor in any aunciēt writer that ſpeaketh of him / is it found. Indeed a Lou… niſt doth ſo call him: but he hath no credit in this cauſe. Where he alledgeth that the name of Archbiſhop is found in the 2. Apologie of Athanaſius: p. CCCCXCVif he ſhew▪ Athanaſius him ſelfe ſpeaking ſo in his owne lāguage / I belieue him: if he can not / he muſt change his ſtile / and in ſteed off Athanaſius / ſay the tranſlator off Athanaſius. And beſide that the Emperour ſet one Iohn a Miletian / ether heretike / or ſchiſmatike to be more then quarter maſter with him: yf yt be true that he hath ſo earneſtly diſputed before / that an archbiſhop, and Metrapolitan be all one, Alexandria being the metrapolitan citie pag. 334.onelyonly / and the biſhop therof the onelyonly metrapolitan: yt muſte needs fall owt / that vvhere this other Archbiſhop is ſuppoſed off the D. to hauehave bene / there could be no archbiſhop / and conſequently that that is the translatours faulte.

There remaineth onelyonly Epiphanius, the firſte off auncient vvriters that gaue this name place in his vvritinges. I am content therfore let this be the firſte flight off that name in to the church: which being abowte the yeare off our Lord 389. at vvhat time Ephanius floriſhed / neere vppon 400. yeares: yt is apparant that both the Anſ. ys greatly ouerſhot / which would make vsus belieue this name to hauehave bene from the times of the Apoſtles: and that I kepte my ſelfe within my boundes / in ſaying the name off Archbiſhop can not be ſhevved in any allovved vvriter, by the ſpace off 300 years after Chriſt. As for that he would proue yt to hauehave bene in Peter the biſhop of Alexandrias tyme, which was before the Nicene cocell, becawſe Epiph. doth call him Archbiſhop: yt hath bene often anſwered / that that title was not of the Perſon / but of the times vvherin Epiphanius vvrote. For vvhen the vvriters before him / and thoſe in Peters time / ſpeaking off Peter call him biſhop allwayes / Euſeb. li. 7. ca. 32.and not archbiſhop / and not him onelyonly / but Achilles / Alexander / and Athanaſius / which ſucceded hym: ys there any man of ſo ſmail iudgement / as not to vnderſtand that this alteracion off title / came off the alteracion off times? So we ſee that off all the teſtimonies the Anſw. hath muſtred / there is not one that hath ſtricken one ſtroke / in the quarell off that antiquitie off the name off Archbiſhop.

The two next ſections / I leaue to the Iudgement off the reader: ſauing that beſides the vanitie off thexcuſe of Baſils pouertie / ioined vvith vntrwth / conſidering that Baſil had not bene p. CCCCXCVIſo ſmall a while biſhop in one place / ād other / but he might hauehave gotten ſome wull on his thread beare gowne / if the fleeſe off his Archbiſhopricke had hād yt: yt ſhal appeare (God willing) that as this pouertie accompanied the biſhops in perfequution: ſo the ordenary of all godly biſhops off thoſe times / and long after / which liued in great peace / was as far from this lordly eſtate / as the honeſt frugalitie off diuers myniſters with vsus / is from the riotous porte off a biſhop. As for my narrow ſearch off a comma, wheroff he ſpeaketh his pleaſure: he might know that althowge a comma be but a litle pricke: yet yt ofte maketh a great matter. The greatnes off the metrapolitanſhip of Baſile ouer Capadocia, was ſcarce a plowghe land in compariſon off that which yow imagine. I for there were at the leaſt two Metrapolitanſhips in Capadocia: one in Caeſaria / where Selladius which ſucceded Baſil was biſhop / an other in Niſſa / where Gregory Baſils brother was. Beſide Soc. lib. 5. cap. 8.that / if it were trwe yow ſay after / that Pontus perteined vntounto the Biſhop of Conſtantinople: Capadocia being in yt / Baſil was his vnderling / and therfore no cauſe vvhy he ſhould be called ſo great a metrapolitan, as yow pretend.Diuiſ. 28. pag. 342.

Here deſtitute off all defenſe / he flieth from the cawſe vntounto by matters / partly vaine / and partly falſe: vvhichwhich I vvill void in as fewe wordes as I cā / before I come to the poincte off the cawſe. Where he ſaith Simeon tharchbiſhop was a bowte the councel off Nice, and therfore no cawſe to accuſe thoſe times, more then the former examples, and for profe alledgeth that he was martyred by Sapore: yf yt Niceph 7. lib. 20. cap.he trw that is written / Sapores beginning his reigne abowte the yeare of the lord 310. and reigning 70. yeares / yt might be well for any thing yet alledged / that he was martyred abowte the yeare 380 and yf we follow his accompte / yet yt is anſwered. Where he ſaith I declare my vnſkillfullnes, in ſaying the biſhop of Conſtantinople Diuiſ. 26. 337.chalenged not the preheminence ouer all: let yt be noted that the hunger he hath to reprehend my vnſkillfullnes / preſſeth him ſo violētly / that feeding one yt ſo gredyly / he hath not ſo ſoone ſwallowed / as he is compelled to regorge / and lay them vp againe. For in the nexte ſentence reprehending me as if I had ſaied / that the biſhop Pag. 334off Conſtantinople chalenged the title off vniuerſall Patriarche p. CCCCXCVIIin the councell off Calcedon / he plainly affirmeth he did not chalenge yt: yet I ſay not that he chalenged that name / but onelyonly that he mighte ordein biſhops off Aſia, &c. Where he woulde proue my vnſkilfulnes, becawſe Pelagius / and Gregory Biſhops off Rome / write agaynſte the Biſhop off Conſtantinople for that cawſe: in deede ſo he maie eaſely finde him ſelfe talke / yf when I ſpeake of the biſhop of Conſtantinople which was in the time off the Calcedon Councell / he talke off the Biſhop off Connſtantinople more then 100. yeare after. Whether this be ether to trifle / or not to know thes thinges the knowledge wheroff he ſo often chalengeth / let the reader iudge. Againe he ſaith / the name off vniuerſall biſhop, was offered vntounto the biſhop off Rome in the councell off Calcedon, and notwithſtanding ſaith / yt was firſte gyuen vntounto the biſhop of Conſtantinople in the Councell of Conſtantinople, being long after: Which are thinges vnlikely. For he making the Biſhop of Rome / to begin his clayme to that tytle / ſo longe before: yt is not to be thought / that being then offered him / he would refuſe yt. Which yf yt were true / the biſhop of Conſtant. could not be the firſte that had that title giuen him / in the Councell of Conſtant. long after.

But yowr lodes man here as in other places / hath ſeduced Pigh. 6. l. Hierar. Apolo. 2. part. c. 4. Diuiſ. 3.yow. For this was taken owt off Pighius / and obiected off Harding againſte the biſhop off Saliſbury: vntounto whom alledging for the proofe therof the Epiſtles off Pope Gregorie / the biſhop anſwereth / he could not refuſe that vvhichwhich vvas neuer offered him. And the trwth is / that not onelyonly there is no ſuch offer to be founde in that Councell / but thinges plainly repugnant. For yt ſaith expreſſely / the biſhop off Conſtantinople ſhall hauehave equall Calced. 16. Actio. Cap. 28.preuiledges vvith Rome. And the ſame Councell gyueth the ſame honor throwghowt vntounto the biſhop off Conſtantinople / which yt gaue the biſhop off Rome: ſauing that becawſe yt was the firſte ſeate off the Empire / yt is content that yt ſhall hauehave the firſte place. The ſame alſo may appeare by the ſecond prouinciall Councell off Conſtantinople / where this is repeated 3. Cap.owt off the Calcedon Councell. Now ſeing this councell made the Biſhop of Conſtantinople equall in priuiledges / and honor with the Biſhop off Rome: yt muſte needes be a meere fable off p. CCCCXCVIIIPope Gregory / the Papiſtes / and our D. that this Councell offred vntounto the Biſhop off Conſtantinople / the title off vniuerſall Biſhop. Thus with my vnſkilfullnes, I am conſtrained to make vp the gap / the D. laieth open vntounto the Papiſtes.

Where he ſaith Conſtantinople required nothing, but according to the 6. canon off the Councell of Nice: he greatly erreth. For firſte the priuiledges of the church of Antioche / in that councel were cleane daſhed / and the whole ſtate off the church being deuided into the rule off fowre / that is the biſhop off Rome / Conſtantinople / Alexandria / and Ieruſalem: the churches were browght into myſerable ſeruitude / which may appeare by the Councell off Conſtantinople: which decreeing this afterward / autoriſeth the canon off that matter / by the councell off Calcedon. Secondly wheras the Concil. Cōſtant. 2 cap. 3. 6.Councell of Nice reſerued to eueryevery prouince her priuiledges / and honor wherof this was parte (as appearethe by other decrees) that the biſhops of eueryevery prouince ſhould chooſe their metrapolitane: he off Conſtantinople toke a way thes priuileges / from the greateſte parte off the churches throw owght the whole worlde: cōſidering that he had by this councell / th appointing of the Metrapolitans off parte of Europe / and of all Aſia / ſauing a litle corner vvherin they had pinned vp the biſhop off Ieruſalem. Thirdly yt is cleare / that not onelyonly at the time of the Nicene Councell he had no ſuche large domynion: but his Iuriſdiction long after / was ſhut vp vvithin the bandes off Thracia onelyonly / withowt hauing any thing to doo ether in Pontus / or Aſia: as appeareth clearly both by Socrates / and by a former councell off Conſtantinople. Thus may the Anſw. great ſkill / for the ſhew wherof he hath thus ranged from the cawſe / eaſely appeare.

Now let yt be conſidered what is anſwered vntounto the argument / wherby vppon the wordes of the councell off Carthage (the biſhop of the fyrſte ſeat, ſhould not be called the cheife off the Preiſtes, or the high preiſte, or any ſuch thing) I concluded the title off the Archhiſhop forbidden. He ſaith that was made agaynſte the biſhop off Rome, and the meaning off that Councell was, that no biſhop ſhould be called by the name off vniuerſall biſhop: which is firſte directly againſte that he hath ſaid before / off the title off the p. CCCCXCIXvniuerſall biſhop / offred in the Councell off Calcedon vntounto the biſhop of Rome. For if Rome deſired not that title / yea refuſed it offered: then there was no ſuch cauſe off the decree off the African Councells / to bridle it in the title off vniuerſall biſhop. Secondly this expoſition bringeth manifeſte force to the councells wordes. For if the name of an Archbiſhop be not ſufficiently forbidden / by thes wordes (Prince off the preiſtes) which in the councells language confounding preiſte / and biſhop / is all one with the name off an Archbiſhop: yet it is forbidden by thoſe wordes which folow / no biſhop ſhall be called by any ſuch name. And if that be not ſufficient / 10 ſtop the waie againſte ſuche trifling cauils as thes: yet the wordes that follow (he ſhall onelyonly be called the biſhop of the firſte ſeate) are ſo plaine that he muſte hauehave a very hard forhead / that will goe abowte to owtface them.

Moreouer Gratian addeth as a parte off this canon: but vniuerſall biſhop, let not the biſhop off Rome himſelfe be called. diſtin. 9….Wherby is manifeſt how vaine the D. ſhifte is. For onles he had in the former wordes / mente all other biſhops: there can be no place for thes / no not the biſhop off Rome. and onles the councell had ment ſome other thing then vniuerſall biſhop / by thes wordes cheife preiſte: ther is no place for thes / vniuerſall biſhop. For if wee ſhould folow the D. expoſition / wee ſhould make the councell ſpeak after this ſorte: the biſhop off Rome ſhall not be called vniuerſall biſhop: but vniuerſall biſhop, no not the biſhop off Rome him ſelfe ſhal be called. Which when yt ys abſurd / wee muſte needee hold that this Councell prouided / not onelyonly againſte the ambitiō of the biſhop off Rome / but off all other: and not againſte the puffe of the name / of vniuerſall biſhop onelyonly / but againſte the ſmokeie title off Archbiſhop / Patriarch / &c.

Furthermore / in another councell which confirmeth the canons off this / it appeareth plainly / that that canon was made eſpecially for the African churches / for the prouinces off Numidia / 4. Councell Carthage.Mauritania / and Tripolis. For Aurelius / and Muſonius preſidents off that Councell / in their Epiſtle to the Biſhop off thoſe prouinces / charge them that they had not kept thoſe canons: and ſhew how ſome couered them ſelues by ignorance off p. Dthem. And not onelyonly the councell off Carthage / holden ſomewhat more then 400. yeares after Chriſte / forbiddeth thes loftie titles: but the councell off Carthage wherat Cyprian was / within 200. and od years after Chriſte / is found off the ſame iudgement vvith this / that no biſhop ſhould be called biſhop of biſhops So that to auoid this argument / the Anſw. muſte be compelled to ſay / that the biſhop of Rome claimed the title off vniuerſall biſhop / within about 200. and 50. yeares after Chriſte: which althowghe he dare much / I thincke he dare not anſwer. Againe / he may vnderſtande that he hath the biſhop for partie. For he alledging owt off Origine / that the myniſters in the very time off Biſhop off Sar. 4. Art. Diuiſ. 33.perſequution vvhileſte he liued / paſſed the owtrage off worldly Princes: addeth that for that cawſe / this canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhichwhich I hauehave ſet downe / was made. Gyuing plainly to vnderſtand / that it was to kill the yche off ambition in the whole order off miniſterie: not as he beareth vsus in hand / onelyonly in reſpecte off one perſon. And if there be any credit to be gyuen vntounto Gregory / there were nighe 600. yeares at the leaſte run owt / or euer the biſhop there / made claime vntounto this title. For he ſaith / no biſhop off Rome vntill his time, had taken to him ſelf that 4. lib. Epiſt. 32.title off ſingularitie, or vvould euer conſent to be called by ſo prophane a name, off vniuerſall biſhop.

Now let vsus ſee his reaſons. The firſt is / Celeſtinus biſhop of Rome, claimed the hearing of matters in the Africane churches, as appeareth by the Africane Councell But how doth he not ſee that the Councell off Carthage / the Canon wheroff I alledged / was before that councell? His anſwer therfore is / that the Councell off Carthage by way off Propheceye / decreed againſt the ambition off Celeſtinus / not then biſhop. And althowgh this be abſurd / yet that which followeth is yet more: that this canon ſhould be to prouide againſte the ambition of the biſhop of Conſtantinople, which chalenged the name off vniuerſall biſhop / about two hundred yeares after this canon made. To vnderſtand faultes ſo particularly / and prouide remedies ſo eſpeciall againſt them before they be / requireth a higher watch tower / then any councell off biſhops could euer clyme into. And as for the Africane councell / nether p. DIin the wordes alledged by the D. nor any other off that Councell doth it appeare / that the Biſhop off Rome claimed the title off vniuerſall biſhop. But as Iulius biſhop off Rome had doon at the Councell off Antioch / he owtreached in claiming the hearing off cawſes / which perteined not vntounto him. In which reſpect the Councell made a ſpeciall chapter / that whoſoeuer ſhould appeale beyond the ſeas / ſhould not be receiued into communion off any in Africk. Which chapter is not the 6. but 92. nether is it off titles, and Afric. cō cil. ca. 92.names, but off iuriſdiction.

Where he ſaith / there were as hauty names in thoſe times, as off Primat, and for proof prouoketh vntounto the greek copie off that Councell off Carthage: there is no aduantage in the Greek copie / which onelyonly maketh mencion off one firſt amongeſt the biſhops: and he is greatly deceiued if he think / that to be firſt biſhop / is as much as to be Prince off Biſhops. For the Biſhop off Rome in reſpect of the three other Patrigrckes / was firſt: yet not their Archbiſhop / but onelyonly had the firſt place in their meetinges. Eſpecially ſeing the Councell doth flatly forbid / that the firſt biſhop amongeſt them ſhould be called by that name / but onelyonly biſhop off the firſt ſeate. For that owt of maiſter Fox / that thes names Archbiſhop, &c. are not forbidden by this canon: I refer the reader to his owne worckes / with this remembrance that I hauehave ſhewed in the former booke / how Maiſter Fox counteth thes degrees ambicious. As for the name high prieſt owt of Ignatius: if need were it may be ſhewed both by reaſons / and autoritie / that he is not off that auncientie the D. ſuppoſeth. Beſide that he giueth it not to any one eſpecially / but to all a like.

Affording yow fowre witneſſes, I allowed yow one to many / Diuiſ. 29. Pag. 344.two off them being counterfaicte. And if he will hauehave parte off thoſe decrees lawfull / and parte baſtard: he muſte ſhew that this was off Samaſus / owt off ſome other then off this forger. Whether off thes true biſhops was firſte / maketh nothing to this queſtion: yt is certein thoſe yow hauehave alledged / are counterfaictes. But becawſe Ierome which liued in the true Samaſus tyme / maketh mention off an archdeacon / let yt be graunted to the D. which he deſyreth: doth he thinke that Damaſus mouth was ſo holy / that with once naming an Archdeacon / he could ſanctifie p. DIIthoffice for euer? yes for he was a vertuous, learned, and godly biſhop. But I hauehave ſhewed that amongeſt men / the beſte ground beareth th…ſſeis. Yea what if the D. praiſe / wheroff he is ſo liberall when yt ſerueth his tourne / be to highe / and it be found that he was not ſo godly as he pretendeth? what if althowgh the tyrā ny were not ſo great / as in his counterfaicre Damaſus time / yet this Damaſus off whom he would father tharchdeacon / ſpake in the Dragons voice: when he ſhameth not to write that the biſhop off Romes ſentence was aboue all other / to be attended Soz. li. 6. 23.for in a Synode? wherby ſtill appeareth how dangerous yt ys / to fetche example off gouernement from thoſe times.

To that I alledged off the names off Acoluthes / and Subdeacons / &c. auncient / and yet not conueniēt: he anſwereth / peraduenture they were profitable. So the profite off tharchdeacon being yet vponupon the die / and in dowbt: wee muſte notwithſtanding hauehave him thruſte vponupon vsus. To that off Monkes auncienter then thardeacon / he anſwereth nothing: but that yt foloweth not if they were vnlawfull, that tharchdeacon is ſo. but yt foloweth well that if the monke / with others are antichriſtian / notwithſtanding their auncientie: that yt is an euill proofe yow vſe / that the archdeacons &c. are not Antichriſtian / becawſe they were auncient: wherin ſtand all yowr proofes. Wheras he ſaith / his pourpoſe was onelyonly to ſhew the antiquitie of thes names, and therfore I doo him wrong, which require he ſhould hauehave browght the approbation of thes autors towching them: bothe he hath vndertaken to proue / that thes names are not againſt the word / and after he concludeth vponupon thes reſtimonies / pag. 298.that thes names are not onelyonly auncient, but allowed off the beſte, eldeſte, worthieſte writers, and councels. So appeareth that my accuſatiō is iuſte / Pag. 348.and that he toke vponupon him to great a bourden. As for the auncientie off the name Archdeacon / yt is not ſhewed before almoſte 400. yeares after Chriſte: which times howe corrupte they were / hath in parte / and will after more appeare.

Can there be plainer wordes to proue that the Archdeacon was no miniſter / then thoſe wherby Sozomene putteth difference Diuiſ. 30. Pag. 345. Soz. 7. lib. 19. ca.betwene an Archdeacon / and an elder / making them ſeuerall members? And where he ſaith / by that reaſo… the Archdeacon ſhoulde p. DIIIbe no deacon, nor the biſhop no preiſte, conſidering that thes are there likewiſe diſtinguiſhed: I merueill that he will dally after this ſorte. For althowgh vnderunder the name off Deacon / and prieſt / tharchdeacon / and biſhop be comprehended: Yet who vnderſtandeth not / that as when biſhop / and archbiſhop are compared together / one doth not / nor can not comprehend the other: ſo deacon / and Archdeacō / there expreſly compared / are oppoſed members / and can not be comprehended one of another. For Deacons being deuided into archdeacons / and thoſe called by the commen name of Deacons / likewiſe prieſtes into biſhops / and which are cōmenly called prieſtes (onles we will imagine that Sozome could not tel how to ſpeake) we muſt needes take them for diſtinct members. Further if the Archdeacō be comprehended of any the reſt of members in this place / it is vnderunder the Deacons: and if he be conteined vnderunder a prieſt alſo / then bothe the Deacon which comprehendeth an archdeacon / muſt be conteined vnderunder prieſt / and Sozome is yet more ridiculous / which of one onelyonly couſtome hath made fowre. Beſide that / Ierome oppoſing an archdeacon vntounto an Epiſt. ad Ruſt. monach.arch elder / or in yowr language archprieſt / ſaying eueryevery church hath her archdeacon, and archprieſt: declareth manifeſtly / that the archdeacon was no prieſt. And by Gregories epiſtle / which writing vntounto the archdeacon off a certein church / maketh the title vntounto the Deacō off ſuch a church: appeareth that the Archdeacon Epiſt. 1. lib. 10.was not a prieſt / but a Deacon.

It is a ſimple exception againſt the Councell off Vrbane / that it is not to be found in the tome off Councells, eſpecially when I cite Diuiſ. 31. pag. 346.it but for a ſtorie witnes: ſeing there are ſome Councells of more weight owt off that booke / then ſome in yt. When Sozome tieth the archdeacon to the church of Alexandria / as well as the Elders / and Deacons / onles he wll ſay that the Elders / and Deacons were not tied vntounto that church: he muſt cōfeſſe that the archdeacon was. Which if it were not cleare by Sozome / is manifeſt by the wordes of Ierome / and Gregory before recited. Where he ſaith / we hauehave no archdeacon not tied to one church: ſeing he is called the archdeacon off ſuch a ſhire / and hath his office not in one / but a hundred churches: I leaue it to the readers Iudgement / with what p. DIIIIboldnes he determineth to owtface all truth. Likewiſe I leaue to his iudgement / whether Ieromes wordes (which to declare the Ierom. ad Euag.manner off the biſhops election / bringeth for example the choiſe of the archdeacō by the Deacōs) be cleare to proue that I hauehave alledged thē for: and how friuolous he is in his ſhiftes / as thowgh it were ſo ſtrange a thing / for the ſoldiers to chooſe their Capitaine: and how he taketh it for graunted / that it is not materiall who choſe the archdeacon / which is before confuted: and laſt of all / how well he concludeth / that foraſmuch as a biſhop is aboue a Deacon, therfore he is aboue the whole colledge off Deacons. Likewiſe how ſoundly he hath anſwered vntounto the 2. next ſections: which to auoide the ſubiection off the archdeacon vntounto the miniſter / is driuen to denie that an Archdeacon is a Deacon / which notwithſtanding affirmeth that an Archbiſhop / is a biſhop: yt being alſo before ſhewed / that Gregorie calleth an archdeacon Deacon / and being more clearer then the day / that as the archelder was both an Elder / and vnderunder any biſhop: ſo the Archdeacon was a Deacon / and of right vnderunder any Elder. Conſidering that Ierome ſpeaketh of that Deacon / at whoſe teſtimonie an Elder was made: which one may eaſely vnderſtand / to hauehave bene an archdeacon.

I leaue the thinges before handled / off Reſidence on a certein place for eueryevery miniſter: here is queſtion onelyonly / what likelihood Diuiſ 33. pag. 347.our Deanes hauehave with the ould. Which becawſe the D. will not perceiue / I muſt be compelled to ſhew Auguſtines wodes to him better. Firſt therfore the Deanes were monkes (for Ierom. ad Nepot. & ad Ruſt.often monkes one was Deane) and conſequently not miniſters: when it is manifeſt by ſtories / that the ould monkes were not onelyonly no miniſters of the word / but not ſo much as within any order eccleſiaſticall. Secondly it was a reproche for thoſe monkes / and Deanes to be in any citie / or great towne: ſeing that a citie Ierom ad Ruſticū. Sozom 1. lib. 13,was a priſon vntounto monkes / and agreed vntounto them as drie lād vntounto fiſh. Thirdly their profeſſion was to labour / and to gaine their liuing by hand: nether was it lawfull for them otherwiſe to liue / ſo that he that did not labour / was eſteemed as a theefe: beſide that / their diet was very homely / and groſſe. Hetherto I think there is nothing like with our Deanes. Now where the Anſw ſaith / the Deanes were ſet ouer the other 9. Monkes, and ſo in their p. DVrule reſemble ours: he forgetteth that their rule was but in prouiſion for meate / and playing the part off their Cater / wheroff they made account vntounto the Father. Of whom there was no cawſe the D. ſhould make mention here: but that he finding no deanly autoritie in this poore Deane / would faine make it owt in the father: whileſt he would make the reader belieue / that the Father / and Deane / were all one.

Where he ſaith / thes were godly ſocieties which Auguſtine ſpeaketh off: I will not denie but that Ierome / and Auguſt. with others commend them / as it is not hard to ſhew that diſcommend them: Theodor. li. 4. ca. 11.but that they were ſo (what ſhew ſoeuer they bore) being inſtituted beſides the warrant off the word / I vtterly denie. Wherin I will refer my ſelf to the treatiſes off diuers learned mē / which hauehave handled that matter: that I be not compelled here to ſet vpō this vermin / which the Anſ. raiſeth againe from hell / to help the office off the Deane. it is enough to hauehave ſhewed / that beſide the name / and inſtitution withowt warrant of Gods word / they hauehave nothing in commen. As for the vnſpeakable profit he ſaith they bring vntounto the church, it is but his couſtome with riotous / and ouerrunning wordes / to ſupply the beggerie of his reaſons: and yt is confuted in an other place. There remaineth one teſtimonie pag. 472.perteining to this queſtion off tharchbiſhop / taken owt of Beza / wherby the Anſ. would proue thes names good / and holy. Wherunto before I anſwer / to thend yt may appeare that the D. doth but hunt after wordes / contrary to mennes conſtant practiſe / and manifeſt writinges: I am compelled here to open / what Bezaes iudgement is off them.

aavponupon 13 Act.Firſt I hauehave ſhewed before / how he holdeth that the name of dominion, wheroff the Archbiſhop / and archdeacon be made / doth not agree vntounto the miniſterie. Secondly / in bbvponupon 1. Philip.an other place he ſo far miſliketh / that any ſhould be called archbiſhop / that he ſaith the order vvhichwhich for policie ſake vvas taken in the auncient church, that one onelyonly amongeſt the Elders of eueryevery churche, ſhould hauehave the name off biſhop, or preſident, vvas the firſt foundacion vvhichwhich the deuill laied off tyrannie in the churche. After it came to Metrapolitanes, vvhichwhich they call archbiſhops: p. DVIvvhichwhich diſtinction had notvvithſtanding a glorious pretence, that Synodes might be the eaſelier called, and ſome order kept in gouernement of thinges. Then, to fovver Patriarches: from fovver to tvvo, from tvvo to one, vvhichwhich is the Pope. In the end for concluſion he addeth: behold vvhat it is to goe a naile breadeth, from the vvord off God. Thirdly / that the auncient Confeſſ. 5 ca. art. 29fathers eſtabliſhed amongeſt the biſhops Metropolitanes / he confeſſeth a good intent: but forſomuch as that horrible tirannie vvhichwhich proceded off them, did ruine the churches, and novv hindereth the reformacion off them, vve vvill (ſaith he) content our ſelues vvith the couſtome, and order off the Apoſtles, &c.

But what will the D. ſay to that he ſaith / Archbiſhops, In his Epiſt. ep. 1.ād Primates are a ſhadovv, and image of the policie of Rome, vvhichwhich came in by litle, and litle? that he calleth them pety tyrantes in reſpect off the Pope? that althovvgh the names be neuer ſo auncient, yet it ovvght to hauehave bene inquired vvhether it vvere lavvfull to bring them into the church: and if it vvere, yet vvhether it be expedient novv in this regeneration off the goſpell, to ſet vp a freſh, or to aboliſhe them? that he ſaith / it is an other reaſon of a Biſhop, Paſtor, Deacon, Elder, as thoſe vvhichwhich are inſtituted by the holy goſt? that he is ſo far frō allowing Archbiſhops / that our kinde of biſhops he calleth counterfaict biſhops, reliques of poperie ſuch as vvill bring in Epicuriſme? that all vvhichwhich vvil the churches ſafe, muſt take heede of that peſtilence? that M. Knox which had put them to flight / ſhould take heede that he ſuffred them not to come in againe, althovvgh it pretend to hauehave great force to kepe vnitie, vnderunder vvhichwhich pretence it deceiued the auncient Fathers? Thus yt appeareth what Bezaes iudgement is / both off thes names / and offices.

Now I retourne to the places alledged off the D. Where he is ſaied to affirme that archbiſhops, &c. are called in ſcriptures by one commen name off Paſtors, and Biſhops: his wordes can not be referred p. DVIIvntounto the name / or office of Archbiſhop. For conſidering there is no mention off them in ſcripture / the ſcripture can not call them Paſtors / and Biſhops: eſpecially ſeing he ſheweth how they are Paſtors / in reſpect off adminiſtration off the word / and Sacramentes / not in that they rule ouer Biſhops: in which regard onelyonly it is confeſſed that they were called Archbiſhops / &c. Where he affirmeth him to call the names holy: the names which he calleth holy / are the names of Apoſtles / and biſhops / not of archbiſhops &c. which may appeare by that following (and therfore they glory off the ſucceſsion off the Apoſtles, and true Biſhops). For ſeing they conuey them ſelues vntounto the ſucceſſion off the Apoſtles / and Biſhops vnderunder the cloke off names: what names are ſo fi… to diſguiſe them / that they might be ſo taken / as thoſe? And where he ſaith / he reckeneth vp archdeacons, Canons, Seniors, Deanes, ſubdeacons, clearkes amongeſt degrees taken owt off the word off God, and from the Primitiue church: fyrſt he hath not they were taken, but they ſeeme to hauehave taken, &c. Then if the auncient church be taken / for that almoſt 400. yeares after Chriſt (as yt may be / compared with that …00. yeares after Chriſt): we deny not but thes names were in the Primitiue church Moreouer the Anſ. to help the Dean / hath falſified Beza / tranſlating for Deacon, Deane: which hauehave no more kindred / then a mat and a mattock. Laſt off all / if he could hauehave brought this teſtimonie owt off Beza / for allowance off names: yet he ſhould hauehave bene afraied to hauehave vſed this aduantage / ſeing that place miniſtreth moe weapons to beate / then to defend him. For there he condemneth flatly / as a rable, and filthy aſſemble of monſters, vnheard off in the auncient church, the degrees of Suffraganes, Officials, Proctors, Vicares, Chapleines, &c: none off which I ſuppoſe the D. may well ſpare / in vpholding that eſtate which he phanſieth ſo good.

I appele not vntounto the Apoſtles times onelyonly / but vntounto the doctrine / Diuiſ. 36. pag. 349.and order eſtabliſhed: where we are ſure there is light withowt darcknes / truth withowt daunger off errors. And if we leauing thapoſtles / ſhould take a patron off gouernement off men / which may be deceiued: yt owght rather to be drawen from the Apoſtles times / then from thoſe 500. yeares after: thoſe being ſo p. DVIIImuch purer / as they were neerer the incomparable brightnes of the goſpell which ſhyned then / and further from thoſe miſtie times off Antichriſt / wherwith after the whole earth was ouercaſt. For if this man off ſin being in the eg in thappoſtles time / receyned by litle and litle continuall increaſe / vntill he came to his full growght: I ſee not why there was not as great oddes / betwene the purenes off the church in thapoſtles time / and that 500. yeares after / as betwene this / and that 1000. yeare after the Apoſtels. And if there were no remedie againſt the corruptions off thoſe pureſt times / but in taking heed to the light which the Lord had ſet vp in the doctrine / and gouernement off thapoſtles: how muche more for remedie againſt ſuch palpable darcknes / as couered the face off the earth in our times / owght we to hauehave reſorted vntounto that perfect / and vnmedled light? not vntounto them whoſe both heauens vvere darker / and ſight dimmer: and which beſide greater night within them ſelues / by reaſon off their infirmitie / had leſſe day withowt by reaſon of the glowmie times. To that alledged / and confirmed / that thes dignities off Metrapolitanes / archbiſhops / &c. were as the handes that pulled, the feet vvhichwhich brovvght, the ſhoulders that lifted vp the Pope into his ſeat, vvhichwhich othervviſe he could neuer hauehave atteined vntounto: the Anſ. ſaith onelyonly / that ſectes, and hereſies gaue ſtrenght vntounto Antichriſt: which is nothing to pourpoſe / as thowgh both thes coulde not ſtand well together.

Where he ſaith / the writers, and Councells off 500. yeares, laboured to kepe owt Antichriſt, and therfore thinges taken from them, can not iuſtly be ſuſpected: I merueill he vnderſtandeth not / firſt / that diuers off that auncientie he ſpeaketh off / and off the cheifeſt aaAthana fius quaeſ. 29. & 30. Ambr. 10 lib. vponupon Luke. ca. 13. Ierom vponupon Daniell 9. 11.of them / knew not what Antichriſt was: but imagined fnodly of him / as of one ſingular perſon / and that he ſhould ſtarte vp ſoudenly / &c. that Elias ſhould come to deſtroie him / that he ſhould be borne of the Iewes / that he ſhould raigne in Ieruſalem / and diuers other ſuche fables. Secondly / that he remembreth not the ignorance off men to be ſuch / that they often times make him a bridge / againſt whom they thinke to ſtop the paſſage. Thirdly / that being oftentimes ouermaſtred off their affections / with hinderance p. DIXoff the truthe / they giuegive ſomewhat to them. Further / that errors / and hereſies (as he ſaithe) ſtrengthening Antechriſte: he coulde forgette the manifolde errors / which are to be founde in the fathers of the time he preſcribeth. Laſte off all / if he coulde be ignorante off thes thinges: yet examples off our daies might hauehave tawght him / that euen now there be which knowing Antichriſte / and deteſting him / ceaſe not to mainteine thinges / wherby that kingdome partly ſtandeth.

Where he ſaith / no man of modeſty, and learning, will condemne orders of that time withowte manifeſte proofe, eſpecially in gouernement: I would gladly knowe of him why he ſhould add / eſpecially in gouernement. what reaſon can he ſhewe / why we ſhoulde not call their gouernement to as narrow a ſearche / and as ſtreight a trial / as their doctrine? When as yt can not be but where the Doctrine is attainted / the infection theroff muſte nedes come vntounto the diſcipline: eſpecially when the Myniſters / which ſitte at the ſierne off gouernement / be ſeaſed with that euill. And the diſcipline of the churche being the wall / wherwith the doctrine ys kept ſafe: as in a citie the wall is that which feeleth the firſte aſſaulte / and is battered before the citie can lie open to the violence off the artillery: ſo in the ſiege off the churche by ſpirituall ennemies / the diſcipline / and gouernement is that / wherinto the firſte breache is made. So that hauinge good cawſe to holde for ſuſpecte / whatſoeuer either in doctrine / or in gouernement thoſe times lefte vntounto vsus / not confirmed by ſubſtanciall proofes owte of the worde: we hauehave yet better cawſe to miſtruſte their gouernement / as that which hauing abidden the greateſt brunte / hathe more neede off reparacions. This appeareth in the firſte Councell of Nice / Concil Nic. 11. 12 13. can before tovvched.where the moſte off errors decreed vppon / were in the diſcipline / and not ſo much in the doctrine: beſide the vngodly couſtome / which may appeare to hauehave occupied almoſt all the churches / towching the forbidding of the ſecond mariadge off miniſters / before that councell.

Furthermore / I would know what charter the Anſw. can ſhew / that the firſte 500. yeares (within compas wherof he hathe browght his teſtimonies) be iuſte the time off the primitiue churche / nether more nor leſſe. But thus muſte he doo / that hauing p. DXnothing els / he might with this glorious title off the primitiuē churche / daſell the eies off the ſimple. Laſte off all / when he ſaithe there was no function browght into the churche the firſt 500. yeares / alowed by generall councell / or credible writer / not meete for that time / and alowable by the worde off God: beſides the groſſe demaund off that in queſtion: I woulde know off him wherfore ſerued exorciſtes / when the gifte off caſting forthe euill ſpirites / was ceaſed? what he will anſwer vntounto aaAd Euſtochium de cuſtodia virginitatis.Ieromes monkes / bbDe vita Pauli.Eremites / ccDe vita Hilarionis.Anchoriſtes? Which were at that time very groſſe. what to the fower Patriarches / or rather three? Which by the generall Councell off Calcedon / ſoone after 400. yeares / had the gouernement off churches throwghe owte all the world. whether he allowe of that famous robberie / wherby the biſhop off Rome / Conſtantinople / and Alexandria (for the biſhop of Ieruſalem beſide the name / had ſcarce aplowgh lande in compariſon off the reſt) parted the ſtate off the whole inheritance off Chriſte? And if it be true which he ddpa. 344.affirmed / that the Councell of Calcedon offred the name vniuerſall biſhop / vntounto the biſhop off Rome: how will he mainteine that no generall Councell within 500. yeares, alowed any office not agreable vntounto the word of God, and meet for thoſe times? Finally / what will he ſay to that yt was (as Iulius biſhop Sozo. li. 3. ca. 10.of Rome ſaith) decreed by the lawes off the churche / and immediatly after the Nicene Councell / that the Biſhop off Rome muſt be called to the Synode: and that it was voide which was doon there / beſide his ſentence? Thus yow may ſee / that yowr ſelfe enemie to Antechriſt / throwghe your inordinate deſire of making good that you hauehave once ſetdowne / hauehave giuen him more grounde / then he coulde euer by ſtronge hande off diſputation conquer.

If there were no other difference betwene the times off the Diuiſ 37. Pag. 349.Apoſtels / and thoſe from whence the D. fetcheth his examples / but this that then there vvas none ſo litle an error, vvhichwhich vvas not beaten dovvne as ſoone as euer yt peeped vp, no infection Euſe. lib. 3. ca. 32.being hable to laie holde off the cheif gouernours, which in his times had poſſeſſed the beſte off them: that alone is ſufficiente to ſhewe / that examples may be ſafely fetched from the Apoſtels times p. DXI/ which can not be withowt greate daunger / drawne from his times. But dothe not the D. ſee how greatly he is abuſed / which compareth the heretikes off the Apoſtels times / with the Catholikes off his? their vtter falling away / with the corruption of others? Whereas if he woulde hauehave anſwered to that I ſet downe: he ſhoulde hauehave compared Catholike gouernours / with Catolike gouernours. But he to lift vp the credite off his times / and to make them equall / or rather for the matter off gouernement ſuperior vntounto the Apoſtels: compareth the roſe of his / with the thornes off the Apoſtels times / the golde off thoſe / with the droſſe off thes. And althowghe yt be groſſe anſwer / yet as if one ſhoulde glorie in his ſhame / in the nexte ſextion he inſulteth vppon me / as thowghe he had anſwered very aptly / and I had ſpoken in the ayer. Wherupon I will leaue yt to the conſideration off the reader / whether he ſeeking to aduance his teſtimonies in thoſe wordes (bbPa. 348. hetherto Antechriſt had not inuaded the churche off Rome, and in thes / approued off the beſt, worthieſt, and eldeſt Councels, fathers, and writers, and a litle after / ccpag. 351.thes names were vſed in the pureſt times of the churche): I hauehave to the pourpoſe ſhewed / that thoſe times were not pure / nor virginlyke / but that the churches were then muche departed / from the ſinglenes vvherin the Apoſtels had lefte thē. I leaue alſo to iudgement / whether the anſwer I make in this behalfe / be other then all thoſe gyue which hauehave to doo with confutation of thoſe popiſhe errors: for the eſtabliſhemēt of diuers wherof / the Papiſtes vrge the ſame antiquitie / which the D. now preſſeth vsus with.

Clementes place which he can not finde, is (as I ſaide) not far from the begin̄ing of the booke. who after he had ſhewed that certeine receiued the doctrine immediatly at the Apoſtles handes / to note how corruption entred / interlaceth this prouerbe in a parentheſis: fevv children are like their fathers. And if it be grieuous foreign.for him with reading off two or three leaues / to ſeeke yt: he ſhall hauehave a ſhorter way / for yt is repeated of ddli. 4. c. 11.Euſebius. As for the nexte ſection / wherin Socrates teſtimonie is wiped awaye / by accuſing him of the Nouatian hereſie: beſides a proofe off the light eſteme off autors which make againſte him / he gaineth p. DXIInothing. For there is nothing ſaide off Socrates / which is not confirmed otherwiſe. The biſhop off Saliſbury alledgeth ſomewhere owt of Origen / off the whole eſtate off biſhops / which Origin. in. Math. Tract. 12.Socrates ſaide of thē of Rome / and Alexandria: that the biſhops euen in his time / and vnderunder the clogge off perſequutiō / ſeemed to paſſe the rage of wordly Princes. And where he ſaith Socrates vniuſtly reproueth the biſhop of Rome, &c. how vntrue that is may cuidnetly appeare / for as much as the biſhop whō Socrates ſpeaketh of was Celeſtinus: whō the Anſ. before ſaith to hauehave claimed ſuperioritie pag. 342.off all churches, and taken vponupon him as yt were the name, off vniuerſall biſhop. Nether did that proude ſtatelines of the Romiſhe Biſhop / which Socrates ſpeakethe of / beginne in Celeſtinus which baniſhed the Nouatians / but was in his predeceſſors / Boniface / Zoſimus / and Innocentius / &c. as may appeare by diuers monumentes of that time. And Socrates doth not reproue them for that they were ennemies to the Nouatian heretikes / but for that they tooke vponupon them to exile them vvhichwhich perteined not vntounto the Biſhop / but vntounto the magiſtrate. Alſo it appeareth that Theodoſius the Emperour / had permitted the Nouatians to hauehave Socr. 5. li. ca. 20.a churche there: ſo that there was double fault in the Biſhop / which in ſteed that he ſhould hauehave contented him ſelf to preach / that it was not meet to hauehave ſuche heretikes in the church: tooke vponupon him to put them owt / both by ſtrong hand / and contrary to the Emperours permiſſion. And if Celeſtinus were ſuche as the D. hathe tolde vsus: then it is ſo farre that Socrates ſpeaking off him as I hauehave alledged / did it of euill will / that he is rather to be be accuſed for to ſoft ſpeache / in ſuche a heinous faulte.

Where he ſaithe I hauehave falſified Socrates, which for paſsing beyonde the limites of prieſtehood to an owtwarde dominion, hauehave ſet downe, leauing the ſacred function were degenerate to a ſecular rule, and dominion: I leue yt to the iudgement of all indifferencie / what cauſe he hathe to make ſuche an alarme / for ſo ſmall a matter: when yt is plaine that how much a miniſter beſtowethe in a vocation which is not his / ſo muche he leaueth his owne: and therby manifeſt / that in altering the wordes / I kepte the ſenſe. And ſo yt ſtill fallethowte / that my falſifying which the Anſw. penne doothe ſo p. DXIIIwillingly runne vponupon / is nether with any aduantage to my cauſe / nor diſaduantage vntounto his. The two nexte ſections I let paſſe / as hauing no matter off anſwer. What attendance the prelatſhip Diuiſ. 42. pag. 352.off the Garter requireth / and what abſence from a Biſhops charge / being a thinge in the knowledge off all / I leaue. whether he hathe manifeſtly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition / which here he denieth / the bookes off bothe ſydes are vvitnes. His ſlaunders (firſt we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer eccleſiaſticall perſons, then / we woulde giuegive to vnderſtande, that he maketh yt in her maieſtyes power to miniſter the worde, and Sacramentes) ſtill confirme his ſhameles impudencie: of the one there is no ſyllable that can be pulled that waies. The wordes of which he would vvreſte the other / be / yt is not lavvfull to take thoſe vvhichwhich god hathe appointed to the myniſtry, to applie to other vſes there mentioned. Which becauſe yt falleth into the queſtion off reſidence / before handled / and into that bearing cyuill office by the Eccleſiaſticall perſon / herafter (God willing) to be diſputed: the reſolution ys to be taken from thoſe places. Where in the laſte dyuiſion he calleth vppon my anſwer, to the tytles off Lordes grace, &c. beſide that he hathe nothing but bare ſayinges withowte ſhewinge forthe any matter: he hathe anſwer. Thus after large promiſes off ſhewing In this Tract. vponupon the place of Math. 20. and after 20. diuiſ. Pag. 448.Matt 20the greate antiquitie off thes names / that they were not onelyonly in the Councell off Nice, but are manifeſtly to be founde in all ſtories, and writers before the councell off Nice: after highe wordes againſte thoſe which denie the pretended antiquitie: after rifling / and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate / and glorious names might be hidden: after hell yt ſelf hath bene moued / and ſommoned to witnes of this antiquitie: yt is manifeſt that thes names nor no one of them / hathe hetherto bene ſhewed in any one Councell / writer / or ſtorie before the Councell of Nice: and then onelyonly the name Metropolitane / which by the Anſw. owne account / was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifeſt alſo that the names Archbiſhop / archdeacon / Primate / &c. be not ſhewed owte off any ether Councell / ſtorie / &c. before Epiphanius time / vvhichwhich vvas aboute the yeare 380. and ſo manifeſte / that thes names being not founde in moſte aunciente monumentes / could not hauehave their allowance. p. DXIIIIwhat approbacion they hauehave had ſythens they came into the church / I leaue yt to be eſtemed partly off that which hathe bene / and partly off that which ſhall be (God willing) alledged▪ being bent as well againſt the office / as name off archbiſhop. Which I therfore forbeare to ſet downe here / leſte I ſhoulde be compelled to repeate them againe.