A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 4
¶ The Replie vntounto the Anſwere of the Preface.
IT may be ſayde vntounto you / that whych Ariſtotle ſayde of a certaine Philoſopher / that he knewe not his owne voice. For if that you had remembred / that which you do ſo often promis / that you will not anſwer words / but matter / ye Printer ſhould not hauehave gained ſo much / men ſhould not hauehave beſtowed ſo much money of a thing not of ſo great value / nor that (which is more) the world ſhuld not be burdened wyth vnprofitable writings. For how often tunninges out hauehave you / to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred / by inucighing bitterly agaynſt their vnlearnednes / maliciouſneſſe? &c. (as it pleaſeth you to terme it) ſo that if there were any exceſſe of ſpeache in them / you hauehave payed it agayne with meaſure preſſed downe / & running ouer. How often charge you them with pride / & arrogancie / men that confeſſe once or twyſe of them ſelues / their want of ſkill / and which profeſſe nothing of them ſelues / but only a bare and naked knowledge of the truth / which may be done with modeſty / euen of them which hauehave no learning. And yet thoſe that know them / know that they are neyther voyde of the knowledge of the tongues / nor of the liberall Artes / albeit they do not make ſo many wordes of it as you. * Salomon ſayth / that he that is deſpiſed / and hath Pro. 12. 9.but one ſeruaunt / is better / then he which magnifyeth and ſetteth out him ſelfe / and yet wanteth breade. Whereby he meaneth that the man / that hath but a little / and caryeth hys countenaunce accordingly / is much more to be eſtemed / then he which beareth a great port / and hath not to ſupport it. Theſe brethren hauehave not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike / Philoſophie / and other ſchoole learning / whereof notwithſtanding they are not deſtitute: you / in ſo often reproching them / with the ignoraunce of them / would make vsus beleeue / that you are ſo notable a Logician & Philoſopher / as if Logike & Philoſophie had bene borne with you / & ſhould dye with you: when as it may appeare / partly by that which hath bene ſpoken / and partly by thoſe things that wil fall out hereafter / that you are better acquainted with the names of Logike and Philoſophie / then with any ſounde or ſubſtantiall knowledge of them. But let that be the vniuerſities iudgement / where you hauehave bene brought vp / and are beſt knowne. To returne to your vnprofitable excurſions / how oftentimes in your boke / do you pull at the magiſtrates ſworde / and what ſworde you would hauehave I leaue to the conſideration of all men / ſeing you are not ſatiſfied with their impriſonment / whereuppon alſo doth enſue the expence of that which they hauehave. What matter is in all theſe / that bringeth any helpe / to the deciſion of theſe cauſes / that are in queſtion betwene vsus? how many leaues hauehave you waſted / in confuting of the quotations / which (you ſay) are vaine / fooliſh / vnlearned / and to no purpoſe of that / for which they are alleaged? And if they be ſo / where learned you / to ſpend ſo much time / about them? Dyd you neuer learne / that ſpoude, ta me ſpoudes axia, elegchein, tôn atopôn eſti? to confute trifeling things ſeriouſly / is a poynt of thoſe / which hauehave no iudgement / to know what is meete for the tyme and place / and other ſuch circumſtances? If I ſhould of the other ſide nowe go aboute to maintayne eueryevery place / to be not vnfitly quoted / vntounto that ende wherefore it is alleadged / and ſhew how vniuſt your reprehenſions are / and how ſmall cauſe you hauehave / to leade them oftentimes / ſo gloriouſly in triumph (as you do) which I aſſure you / I could do in the moſt places. (As / what could be more fitly alleaged / to induce to reade the booke / then that they ſhould * try all things? what more fitly / to holde men from 1. Theſ. 5. 21. Ia. 1. 19. 20.raſhe condemning of things / then that they ſhuld be * ſlow to ſpeake? what more fitly / to moue that they ſhould not miſſelike of the goodnes of the cauſe for the ſimplicitie or baſe degree of them that defend it / then / that we * ſhould not hauehave Ia. 2. 1.the fayth of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt / in reſpect of perſons? and what more vniuſtly done / then that you ſhould whippe them / for the printers faulte / in putting one place for an other). If I ſay / I ſhould thus go about / to make good eueryevery place / how euill ſhould I deſerue / either of learning / or of the truth it ſelfe / in blotting of much paper / whereby no profit would come to the reader? And if the dayes of a man / were as many / as the dayes of an Oke / I would neither willingly trouble / nor be troubled / with ſuch ſtrife of wordes. Seeing therefore / God hath ſhut vsus in ſo narow termes / me thinke / men ſhould hauehave conſcience of peſtoring the world / with ſuch vnprofitable treatiſes.
Therefore all theſe / and whatſoeuer elſe wandering words / I ſhall meete / with in this booke / I meane (by God his grace) as dead things / and nothing worth / to bury with ſilence / and will anſwere to thoſe things / which touch the matters that lye in controuerſie betwene vsus. And as for the vnlearnednes / blind zeale / malice / intolerable pride / contempt of al good orders / and twentie ſuch more things / wherwith M. Doctor chargeth vsus / if our life & cōuerſation doth not confute thē ſufficiently / our words & profeſſion of our ſelues / wil not do it. And therfore / we wil firſt ſtay our ſelues with y• teſtimony of our owne conſciences / & thē in the equity of ye iudgemēt of al thoſe / which ſhal indifferētly cōſider theſe things / y• we are charged with. And as for ye ſworde / that is ſo hotly & haſtely called for / we hope it be in their hāds / which wil vſe it better / then they are by you directed.
To come therfore vntounto the matter / out of the places of the. 20. of Mathew / and the 22. of Luke where our ſauiour Chriſt / vponupon occaſion of the inordinate requeſt of the ſonnes of Zebede / putteth a difference / betwene the ciuill and eccleſiaſticall function / he placeth the diſtinction of them in two poyntes / whereof the one is / in their office / the other is in their names and titles.
The diſtinction of the office he noteth / in theſe words / the kings of the Gentiles hauehave dominion ouer them / and the princes exerciſe authoritie ouer them / but it ſhal not be ſo with you. Wherupon the argument may be thus gathered. That / wherein the ciuill magiſtrate is ſeuered from the eccleſiaſticall officer / doth not agree to one miniſter ouer an other. But the ciuill magiſtrate is ſeuered from the eccleſiaſticall officer / by bearing dominion. Therfore bearing dominion doth not agree to one miniſter ouer an other.
Touching their names and titles / he putteth a differēce in theſe words. And they are called gracious Lordes / but it ſhall not be ſo with you. And ſo the argument may be framed as before / that for as muche as they are ſeuered in titles / and that to the ciuill miniſter doth agree the title of gracious Lordes / therefore to the Eccleſiaſticall miniſter the ſame doth not agree. For as it is fitte / that they whoſe offices cary an outward maieſtie and pompe ſhould hauehave names agreeable to their magnificence: ſo is it meete / that thoſe that God hath remoued from that pompe and outwarde ſhew / ſhoulde likewiſe be remoued from ſuch ſwelling and loftie titles / as doe not agree with the ſimplicitie of the miniſterie whiche they exerciſe. And whereas it myght ſeeme ſomewhat vniuſte: that he that hath the greater giftes / ſhoulde not be preferred to thoſe which hauehave leſſe / our ſauioure Chriſt ſheweth that the matter is farre otherwiſe. For by how much eueryevery man doth excell his fellow in the giftes of the holy ghoſt / by ſo muche more / he oughte to employ him ſelfe to the benefite of others: ſo that in a maner he ſhould become (as it were) their ſeruaunt to doe them good. Which although it be in part common to the ciuill magiſtrate with the miniſter of the word / yet he doth neuer let downe him ſelfe ſo low / nor geueth his ſeruice either to the church or common wealth / but that he doth and ought in that ſeruice to retayne that dignitie and countenaunce / with the markes and notes thereof / which hys princely eſtate doth require.
In the end / he propoundeth him ſelfe for example / in whome he ſetteth before their eyes / a perfect paterne of ye miniſterie. For ſeeing he being Lord / tooke vpō him to be a ſeruaunt / & being Emperor and king of heauen & earth / was contēt to want all the glory & ſhew of the world (his miniſterie ſo requiring) it ſhoulde be great ſhame for them which were his diſciples / choſen out for the miniſtery / not to content them ſelues / but to aſpire vntounto ſuch offices and dignities / as they dreamed of.
Agaynſt thys is ſayde / that the places do nothing elſe but condemne ambitious deſire and tyrannicall vſage of authoritie / and doth not barre the miniſters of theſe thinges.
Then be like all thoſe godly and learned men / which hauehave vſed theſe places * The byſhop of Salſbury ſo alleageth this place in his defence of the Apologie againſt maiſter Harding. pag. 653.to proue that the Pope which profeſſeth him ſelfe to be an eccleſiaſticall perſon / ought not to hauehave the ciuill ſworde / nor to vſurpe vntounto him ſelfe ſuche glorious pompe / hauehave abuſed them. For you teach him how he ſhould anſwere / that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyrannie / and in deede this is the anſwere of all the Papiſts to that obiection.
But Muſculus a learned man is of ye iudgement. And M. Caluin (as learned as he with diuers other) are of that iudgement that I hauehave alleaged. This is no great proofe of your ſide / nor reproofe of ours / let vsus therefore ſee the reaſons wherewith this expoſition is warranted. Muſculus reaſon is this / that if he ſhould hauehave ment that the Apoſtles had bene equall and none greater then an other / then there ſhould be equalitie of all / and none ſhould hauehave authoritie ouer other. And ſo there ſhoulde be no degrees of the Prince and ſubiect in the common wealth / of maſter and ſeruaunt in a familie / of people & miniſter in ye church. But it is no good reaſon to ſay / there is / nor ought to be / any inequalitie amongſt the apoſtles / therefore there is none / nor ought to be none at al: Or to ſay there is no mequalitie amongſt the paſtors / therefore there is no inequalitie betwene the paſtors and the people. For as common wealthes / families / and churches / are preſerued by inequalitie / and in that ſome are higher / and ſome are lower / ſome rule / and ſome obey: ſo are the ſame likewiſe preſerued by equalitie of certayne amongſt them ſelues. As for example / albeit the Conſuls in Rome / wer aboue other offices / and the people / yet were they equall betwene them ſelues. And although it be the preſeruation of the family / that the maſter ſhould be aboue the ſernaunt / and the father aboue the ſonne: yet it tendeth alſo to the quiet of the houſe that the ſeruaunts amongſt them ſelues / and the brethren amongſt them ſelues / ſhould be equall. And ſo we graunt / that for the preſeruation of the church / it is neceſſary that there be ſome ſhould beare rule / and other ſhould be vnderunder their rule: but I deny / that thereof followeth / that one miniſter ſhould beare rule ouer an other. Whereas M. Muſculus ſayth that Peter was found in many places chefe amongſt the reſt / if he meane as Euſebius, lib. 2. cap. 14. doth / which ſayth / that he was tes aretes eneka tôn Ioipon apoſtolon proegoron for his vertues and gifts he had / one that ſpake before the reſt / & in the name of the reſt / (which he ſemeth to do in that he doth not abſolutely geue any chefetie vntounto him but only in certayne places) I agree with him / and do not deny / but ſuch chiefetie may be amongſt the miniſters / as ſhall appeare more at large hereafter.
This interpretation of M. Muſculus (maſter D. ſayth) muſte needes be true / or elſe Chriſt ſhould reiect Princes & Magiſtrates / emongſt both Chriſtians & other. I hauehave ſhewed how it doth not follow that / becauſe he forbiddeth y• rule vntounto the miniſters / therfore he forbiddeth it ſimply and altogether: no more then the law which forbiddeth that any ſtranger ſhould be king of the realme / for biddeth therefore that there ſhoulde be no king of the realme. VVhereas you ſay maiſter Muſculus teacheth how he ought to rule which ruleth / & what he ought to be / I hauehave tolde you before / other thinke otherwiſe: and therefore you hauing ſette downe hys iudgement before / needed not to hauehave repeated it here agayne. But the Greeke wordes (you ſay) catakyrieuouſin kai catexouſiazouſin doe ſignifie to rule wyth oppreſſion / and why may not I ſaye that thys prepoſition cata, doth not ſignifie heere a peruerſneſſe of rule / but an abſoluteneſſe and a full power and iuriſdiction as catamathein, catalambanein is not to learne / or to perceyue euilly and peruerſly / but to learne exactly / and to perceiue throughly and perfectly? but what neede we to followe coniectures in ſo playne a matter? when as Saint Luke vſeth the ſimple wordes without any compoſition of exouſiazein Kai Kyrieuein? doe you not perceyue that the prepoſition wherein you put ſo great confidēce / deceiueth you / beſides the manifeſt vntruth you commit in ſaying / that all three Euangeliſtes hauehave katexouſiazouſin & katakyrieuouſin. Furthermore you ſay / that our ſauioure Chriſt ſayeth not / that no man ſhall be great amongſt them / but he that deſireth to be great amongſt them. He had ſayd ſo before when he had ſayd it ſhall not be ſo amongſt you / and therefore needed not to repeate it: and yet an other Euangeliſt ſayeth not / he that deſireth to be great / but let the Luk. 22. 26.greateſt among you / be as the leaſt. VVherby he doth not reprehend only the deſire of being great / but will not hauehave them to be one aboue an other.
To the laſt reaſon.
Laſt of all you conclude that our ſauiour Chriſt in the 20. of Mathew / reproueth the ambition of the ſonnes of zebede / and in the 22. of S. Luke all the reſt of the Apoſtles. I graunte you / he dothe ſo / and that coulde not be done better / then in tellyng them / that they deſired things not meete for them / and which woulde not ſtande with their calling. And if as you ſay the ambition only was reprehended / and the deſire of rule to oppreſſe others wyth / the anſwere you attribute to our ſauioure is not ſo fitte. For they myght hauehave replyed and ſayde that he forbad tyrannicall rule and oppreſſion of their inferioures / but they deſired that which was a moderate and well ruled gouernment. And ſemeth it vntounto you a probable thing / that S. Luke meaneth tyrantes and oppreſſors / when as he ſayth / they are called beneficiall or gracious Lordes? men doe not vſe to call oppreſſors / liberall or bountifull Lordes. Neyther is it to be thought of all the Apoſtles / that they deſired rule one ouer an other / to the ende that they would vſe crueltie / or tyrannie / or oppreſſion / one ouer an other: for that were to doe them great iniurie. Beſides that it is ſayde / that the reſt of the diſciples diſdayned at the two brethren / whyche they would not hauehave done / if they had had any purpoſe or mynde to hauehave oppreſſed them. For then they would hauehave contemned them / rather then hauehave diſdayned them / if they had broken out into ſuche groſe faultes. For Ariſtotle teacheth that nemeſis (which is the ſame that aganacteſis is / the In hys rethor. ad Theod.verbe whereof the Euangeliſt vſeth) is agaynſt thoſe / that are ſuppoſed of them that beare the diſdayne / to be lifted vp higher and into better eſtate then they are worthy of: whych agreeth wyth that interpretation whyche I hauehave alleaged / and can not agree wyth the other / whych you ſet downe. For who (ſpeaking properly) would ſpeake after thys ſort. The reſidue of the Apoſtles diſdayned at the two brethren / or thought them vnworthy that they ſhould beare tyrannicall rule ouer them.
To the ſection that beginneth touching the place in. 23. of Mathew / and ſo vntill howe aptly.
Concerning the expoſition and ſence of that place / I agree with you / and ſuppoſe that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition / rather to note the ambition of certayne / which gape greedely at theſe byſhopprickes which we hauehave / to the ende they mighte be ſaluted by the name of Lordes / and honoures / then to proue that one miniſter ſhould not hauehave dominion ouer an other. And therefore although theſe places be agaynſt no lawfull authoritie of any eſtate or condition of men / yet as they are aptly alledged againſt the biſhop of Rome / the one againſt his eſtate and authoritie ſimply / the other agaynſt hys tyrannie and euill vſage of hym ſelfe in that authoritie: ſo it may be aptly alleaged agaynſt any other / which ſhall fall into the like fault of the byſhop of Rome. The pureneſſe that we boaſt of / is the innocencie of our ſauioure Chriſt / who ſhall couer all our vnpureneſſe / & not impute it vntounto vsus. And for ſo much as fayth * purifyeth the hart / Act. 15. 9.we doubt not / but God of his goodnes hath begon our ſanctification / and hope that he will make an ende of it / euen vntill the day of our Lord Ieſus.
Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe / which impugne them: yet I know none that by compariſon / hath eyther ſayd / or written / that all thoſe that thinke as we doe in thoſe poyntes are more holy / and more vnblameable in life / then any of thoſe that thinke otherwiſe. If we ſay / that (in thoſe poynts which we holde from them) we thinke ſoundlier then they doe: we are ready to proue it. If we ſay alſo / that we lyue not ſo offenſiuely to the world commonly / by getting ſo many lyuinges into our handes / as would finde foure or fiue good learned able miniſters / all the worlde will beare vsus witnes. Other purenes we take not vponupon vsus. And therefore / as the name was firſt by the Papiſtes maliciouſly inuented: ſo is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed. Whereas you ſay / that they are Puritanes / which ſuppoſe the church which they hauehave deuiſed / to be without all impuritie: if you meane without ſinne / you doe notably ſlaunder them / and it is already anſwered: If you meane / that thoſe are Puritanes or Catharans / which do ſet forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church / then the marke of thys hereſy reacheth vntounto thoſe / which made the booke of common prayer / which you ſay is a perfect and abſolute rule to gouerne this church / wherein nothing is wanting or too little / nor nothing running ouer / nor too much. As for the Catharans (which were the ſame that are otherwiſe called Nouatians) I know no ſuche opynion they had / & they whome you charge / are as farre from their corruption as you be.