A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 5
An anſwere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page / vntill. Now if eyther godly Councels.
YOu geue occaſion of ſuſpition / that your end will be ſkarce good / which hauehave made ſo euill a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition / that nothing ſhould be placed in the Church / but that God hath in Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32.hys word commaunded / as though the wordes were not playne enough / you wil geue them ſome light / by your expoſition. And what is yt? you anſwere that it is as much as though they would ſay / nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Chriſte / touching eyther doctryne / order / ceremonies / diſciplyne / or gouernment / except it be expreſſed in the word of God. Is thys to interprete? is it all one to ſay: nothing muſt be placed in the church: and nothing muſt be tollerated in the church? he hath but ſmall iudgemēt / that can not tel / that certaine things may be tollerated and borne with for a time / which if they were to be ſette in and placed / could not be done without the great fault of them that ſhuld place them. Againe / are theſe of lyke waight / except it be commaunded in the worde of God: and except it be expreſſed in the word of God? Many things are both commaunded and forbidden / of which there is no expreſſe mention in the word / which are as neceſſarily to be followed / or auoided / as thoſe / wherof expreſſe mētion is made. Therfore vnleſſe your waightes be truer / if I coulde let it / you ſhould waighe none of my wordes. Hereupon you conclude / that their arguments taken ab authoritate negatiue, proue nothing. When the queſtion is of the authoritie of a man / in deede it neither holdeth affirmatiuely nor negatiuely. For as it is no good argument to ſay / it is not true becauſe Ariſtotle or Plato ſayde it not: ſo is it not to ſaye / it is true / becauſe they ſayde ſo. The reaſon whereof is / becauſe the infirmitie of man can neither attaine to the perfection of any thing / wherby he might ſpeake all thinges that are to be ſpoken of it / neyther yet bee free from erroure in thoſe thinges / which he ſpeaketh or geueth out / and therfore thys argument / neyther affirmatiuely / nor negatiuely / compelleth the hearer: But only induceth hym to ſome liking or miſliking of that / for which it is brought / & is rather for an oratour to perſwade the ſimpler ſort: thē for a diſputer to enforce him that is learned. But for ſo muche as the Lord God / determyning to ſet before our eyes a perfecte fourme of hys church / is both able to doe it / and hath done it / a man may reaſon bothe wayes neceſſarily. The Lorde hathe commaunded / it ſhoulde be in hy… churche: therefore it muſt. And of the other ſide / he hath not commaunded: therefore it muſt not be. And it is not harde to ſhewe / that the Prophetes hauehave ſo reaſoned negatiuely. As when in the perſon of the Lord the Prophet ſayth / * wherof I hauehave not ſpoken / and which neuer entred into my heart: and as where he …7. Iere. 31. 32 30. Eſa. 2.condemneth them / * becauſe they hauehave not aſked counſell at the mouthe of the Lorde. But you ſay / that in matters of faythe and neceſſary to ſaluation it holdeth / which thinges you oppoſe afterwardes and ſet agaynſt matters of ceremonies / orders / diſcyplyne and gouernment: as though matters of dyſciplyne and kynde of gouernment were not matters neceſſary to ſaluation / and of faythe. The caſe which you put / whether the byſhop of Rome be head of the church / is a matter / that concerneth the gouernment / and the kynde of gouernment of the church / and the ſame is a matter that toucheth fayth / and that ſtandeth vponupon our ſaluation. Excommunication / and other cenſures of the church / which are forerunners vntounto excommunication / are matters of dyſciplyne / and the ſame are alſo of faythe and of ſaluation. The ſacramentes of the Lorde hys ſupper / and of baptiſme are ceremonies / and are matters of faythe and neceſſary to ſaluation. And therefore you which diſtinguiſhe betweene theſe / and ſaye / that the former / that is matters of faythe and neceſſarye to ſaluation may not be tollerated in the church / vnleſſe they be expreſly contayned in the worde of God or manyfeſtly gathered: But that theſe later which are / ceremonies / order / diſciplyne / gouernment in the church / may not be receiued agaynſt the word of God / and conſequently receiued if there be no word agaynſt them (although there be none for them) you I ſay diſtinguiſhing or dyuiding after thys ſorte / do proue your ſelfe to be as euill a deuyder / as you ſhewed your ſelfe before an expounder / for thys is to breake in peeces / and not to deuide.
And it is no ſmall iniurie which you doe vntounto the word of God / to pinne it in ſo narow roume / as that it ſhould be able to direct vsus / but in the principall poyntes of our relygion: or as though the ſubſtance of religion / or ſome rude and vnfaſhioned matter of building of the church were vttered in them, & thoſe things were left out / that ſhould pertayne to the fourme and faſhion of it: or as if there were in the ſcriptures onelyonly to couer the churches nakednes / and not alſo chaines and bracelettes and rings / and other iewels / to adorne hir and ſet hir out / or that to conclude / there were ſufficient to quench hir thirſt / & kil hir honger / but not to miniſter vntounto hir a more liberall / and (as it were) a more delicious and daintie diet. Theſe things you ſeeme to ſay / when you ſay / that matters neceſſary to ſaluation and of fayth are contayned in the ſcripture / eſpecially when you appoſe theſe things / to ceremonies / order dyſciplyne / and gouernement.
And if you meane by matters of fayth and neceſſary to ſaluation / thoſe without which a man cannot be ſaued: then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will / or prayer for the dead / is not within your compaſſe. For I doubt not / but dyuers of the fathers of the Greke church / which were great patrons of free wil (at leſt as their wordes pretende) are ſaued holding the foundation of the fayth / which is Chriſt. The lyke might be ſayd of a nomber of other / as neceſſary doctrines / wherein men being nuſled / hauehave notwithſtanding bene ſaued. Therefore ſeeing that the poynt of the queſtion lyeth chiefely in this diſtinction / it had bene good that you had ſpoken more certainely and properly of theſe things.
But to the ende it may appeare / that this ſpeach of youres / doth ſomething take vp & ſhrinke the armes of the ſcripture / which otherwiſe are ſo long & large: I ſaye that the word of God contayneth the direction of all things pertayning to the church / yea of what ſoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life. For ſo Salomon ſayth / in the ſecond chapter of the Prouerbes. My ſonne / if thou …. Cha. 9.receiue my wordes / and hyde my preceptes. &c. Then thou ſhalt vnderſtande iuſtice and iudgement / and equitie / and eueryevery good way. S. Paul ſayth that 1. Cor. 10. 31.whether we eate or drynke / or whatſoeuer we do / we muſt do it to the glory of God. But no man can gloryfy God in any thing but by obedience / and there is no obedience but in reſpect of the commaundement and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions. And that which S. Paul ſayd of meates and drinkes that they are ſanctifyed vntounto vsus by 1. Tim. 4. 5.the word of God / the ſame is to be vnderſtanded of all thinges elſe whatſoeuer we hauehave the vſe of. But the place of S. Paul is of all other moſt cleare / where ſpeaking of thoſe things which are called indifferent / in the ende he concludeth / that whatſoeuer is not of fayth / is ſinne: but fayth is not but in reſpecte of the 14. Rom. 23.word of God / therfore whatſoeuer is not done by the word of God / is ſinne. And if any will ſay that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perſwaſion that that which he doth is well done / I graunt it. But from whence can that ſpring but from fayth / and how can we perſwade and aſſure our ſelues / that we do well / but whereas we hauehave the word of God for our warrant? ſo that the Apoſtle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto, doth geue to vnderſtād from whence the aſſured perſuaſion doth ſpring. Whereupon it falleth out / ye foraſmuch as in all our actions both publyke & priuate we ought to follow ye direction of ye word of God: in matters of the church and which concerne all / there may be nothing done but by the word of God. Not that we ſay / as you charge vsus in theſe words (that no ceremonie. &c. may be in the church except the ſame be expreſſed in the word of God) but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church / it is not lawfull to doe what men liſt / but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the ſcripture / that are geuen to be the ſquire / whereby thoſe ſhould be ſquared out. Which rules I will here ſet downe / as thoſe which I would hauehave as well al orders & ceremonies of the church framed by / as by the which I wil be content / that all thoſe orders & ceremonies which are now in queſtion / whether they be good & conuenient or no / ſhould be tried & examined by. And they are thoſe rules / which Paule gaue in ſuch caſes as are not particularly mētioned of in ſcripture.
The firſt / that they offend not any / eſpecially the Church of God.1. Cor. 10. 32. 1. Cor. 14. 40.
The ſecond / is (that which you cite alſo out of Paul) that all be done in order and comclynes.
The thirde / that all be done to edifying.1. Cor. 14. 26. 14. Rom. 6. 7.
The laſt / that they be done to the glory of God.
So that you ſee that thoſe things which you recken vp / of the houre / & time / & day of prayer. &c. albeit they be not ſpecified in the ſcripture / yet they are not left to any / to order at their pleaſure / or ſo that they be not agaynſt the worde of God: but euen by and according to the word of God they muſt be eſtabliſhed: and thoſe alone to be taken / which do agree beſt and neareſt with theſe rules before recited. And ſo it is brought to paſſe (which you thinke a great abſurdity) that al things in the church ſhould be appoynted according to the word of God. Wherby it likewiſe appeareth / that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church / becauſe they are of the nature of thoſe which are varyed by times / places / perſons / & other circumſtances / & ſo could not at once be ſet down & eſtabliſhed for euer: & yet ſo left to the order of the church / as yt it do nothing agaynſt the rules aforſayde. But how doth this follow / yt certaine things are left to ye order of the church / therfore to make a new miniſterie by making an Archbiſhop / to alter ye miniſterie ye is appointed / by making a biſhop or paſtor without a church or flock / to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon / & wher he might exerciſe his charge of prouiding for ye pore / to abrogate cleane both name & office of ye elder with other more: how I ſay doth it follow ye becauſe the church hath power to order certaine things / therfore it hath power to do ſo of theſe / which God hath ordayned and eſtabliſhed: of the which there is no tyme / nor place / nor perſon / nor any other circumſtance / which can cauſe any alteration or chaunge? Which thing ſhall better appeare both in the diſcourſe of the whole booke / and eſpecially there / where you go about to ſhew certayne reaſons / why there ſhould be other gouernmēt now / then was in ye tyme of the apoſtles. But whyle you goe about to ſeme to ſay much / & rake vp a great nomber of thinges / you hauehave made very euill meſtin (and you hauehave put / in one / thinges which are not paires nor matches. Becauſe I will not draw the reader willingly into more queſtions then are already put vppe / I will not ſtand to diſpute / whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday (being the day of the reſurrection of our ſauiour Chriſt / and ſo the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes ſabboth was the day wherein the world was finiſhed / and being in all the churches in the Apoſtles times as it ſeemeth vſed for the day of the reſt and ſeruing of God) ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may ſay / that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable / as the houre and the place of prayer. But where was your iudgement / when you wrote / that the ſcripture hath appoynted no diſcipline nor correction for ſuche / as ſhall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God? VVhat churche diſcipline would you hauehave other then admonions / reprehenſions / and if theſe will not profitte excommunication? and are they not appoynted of our ſauioure Chriſte. 18. Math. 15. 16. 17. 22. Chap. 20.There are alſo ciuill puniſhments / and puniſhmentes of the body likewiſe / appoynted by the word of God in diuers places / in Exodus. He that ſacrificeth to other gods / and not to the Lorde alone / ſhall dye the death. And in Deutcronomie. Thou ſhalt burne out the euill out of the middeſt of thee / that the reſt may 19. Chap. 19.heare & learne and not dare do the like. The execution of thys law appeareth in ye Chro. by king Aza / who made a law / that all thoſe that did not ſeke ye Lord ſhuld 2. Chr. 15. 13.be kilde. And thus you ſee ye ciuill puniſhment of contēners of ye word & prayers.
There are other for ſuch as neglect the worde / which are according to the quantitie of the fault: ſo that whether you meane ciuil or eccleſiaſticall correction / the ſcripture hath defined of them both. I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common tranſlation calleth Ezra / of chaires in S. 8. Chap. 4. 23. Chap. 2.Mathew / where / by the chaire of Moſes our ſauioure Chriſt meaning the doctrine of Moſes / doth alſo declare the manner which they vſed in teaching: Of ſitting at the communion (which the Euangeliſt noteth to hauehave bene done of our Math. 26. 20.Sauioure Chriſt with his diſciples) which examples are not to be lightly chaunged / and vppon many occaſions.
But this I can not omitte / that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houſes / that is to ſay / priuately or publikely. For what better interpretation can I hauehave / then of your owne wordes / which ſay by and by after / of Baptiſme / that it is at the order of the church / to make it priuate or publike. For if it be in the power of ye church / to order that Baptiſme may be miniſtred at ye houſe of eueryevery priuate perſon / it is alſo in her power to ordayne that the worde / be preached alſo priuately. And then where is that which Salomon ſayth that wyſdom cryeth openly & in the ſtreates / and at the corners 8. Prou. 2. 3.of the ſtretes where many meete: and where be the examples of the olde church / which had beſydes the temple at Ieruſalem / erected vppe ſynagogues in eueryevery towne to heare the worde of God / and myniſter the cyrcumcyſion? what is become of the commaundement of our ſauioure Chriſt / whych * wylled his diſcyples 10. Math. 27.that they ſhould preache openly / and vponupon the houſe toppes / that which they heard in the eare of hym / and ſecreately? and howe doe we obſerue the example of our ſauyour Chriſt / who to delyuer hys doctryne from all ſuſpytion of tumultes 18. Ioh. 20.and other dyſorders / ſayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the ſynagogues / albeit the ſame were very daungerous vntounto hym? & the example of the 3. Act. 1. 4. Act. 1.* Apoſtles / that dyd the ſame. For as for ye tyme of perſecution / when the church dare not / nor is not meete / that it ſhould ſhewe it ſelfe to the ennemy / no not then is the word of God nor the ſacraments priuately preached or miniſtred / neyther yet ought to be.
For althoughe they be done in the houſe of priuate man / yet becauſe they are & ought to be miniſtred in the preſence of the congregation / there is neyther priuate preaching / nor priuate baptiſme. For like as where ſo euer the Queenes maieſtie lyeth / there is the Courte / althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys houſe / ſo whereſoeuer the churche meeteth / that place is not to be holden priuate / as touching the prayers / preachings / and ſacraments / that ſhalbe there miniſtred. So that I denye vntounto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleaſure / whether preaching or miniſtring of ſacramentes / ſhould be priuate or publicke / when they ought not to be / but where the church is / and the church ought not to aſſemble (if it be not letted by perſecution) but in open places. And when it is driuen from them / thoſe places where it gathereth it ſelfe togither / although they be otherwiſe priuate / yet are they for the time that the churches doe there aſſemble / and for reſpect of the worde and ſacraments / that are there miniſtred in the preſence of the church / publike places. And ſo you ſee thoſe (whome you charge ſlaunderouſly wyth conuenticles) are faine to glaſe vp the windowes that you open to ſecreate and priuate conuenticles.