A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 14
The Anſwere to the next ſection / being the 43. page. and vntill (I adde) which is in the 44. page.
VNtoUnto theſe places of the firſt and ſixthe of the Actes is added / firſt the place of the fourtenth of the Actes / where the authors of the admonition do proue / that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand / but ought to be made by the churche / agaynſt which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions. The firſt is / for that it is ſayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders / whereby he would conclude / that the congregations had nothing to doe. But how ſiender a reaſon that is / it may be conſidered of infinite places in the ſcripture / whereof I will recite two or three.
In the fifthe Chapter of Ioſua it is ſayde / that Ioſua made him ſharpe Chap. 5. 3.kniues for the circumciſing of the children of Iſraell / and a little after that Ioſua circumciſed them. Shall we now vppon theſe wordes conclude / that Ioſua dyd make the kniues himſelfe / or was a cutler / or being made to hys hande / dyd whet them and ſharpen them / or ſhall we ſay that he dyd circumciſe the children of Iſraell / in his owne perſon and hym ſelfe alone / when as that was done by many / and by the Leuites to whome that offyce appertayned? no / but the ſcripture declareth / that Ioſua procured ſharpe kniues to be made / and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumciſed.
In Exodus / it is ſayde / that Moſes dyd appoynt vntounto the people / Princes / Chap. 18. 25.Captaynes ouer thouſandes and hundrethes. &c. And if any conclude thereuppon / that hee dyd it him ſelfe alone / hee is by and by confuted by that whiche is wrytten in Deuteronomie / where it appeareth / that the people dyd chuſe 1. Chap. 13.them / and preſented them to Moiſes. What is it then that is ſayde in Exodus that Moiſes appoynted them / but that Moyſes aſſembled the people / and exhorted them to appoynt rulers / and tolde them what manner of men they ſhould be / and in a worde / ſate as it were moderatour in that election?
To come to the newe Teſtament: In the Actes it is ſayde that Paule and 16. Chap. 4.Timothe delyuered vntounto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apoſtles and elders / and yet it appeareth in another place / that the Church had alſo to doe / and gaue their conſent vntounto the making of thoſe decrees / ſo that the former place meaneth / that the Apoſtles and Elders dyd goe before / and were the cheefe / 15. Act. 23.and directors of that action.
The ſame manner of ſpeach is vſed of the Romane ſtories / wherein it is ſayd that the Conſull dyd make Magiſtrates / for becauſe that he gathered the aſſembly and voyces whereby they were made: and ſo S. Luke ſayth heere / that Paul and Barnabas ordayned / becauſe they being the moderators of the Election / cauſed it to be made / aſſembled the churches / tolde them of the neceſſitie of hauing good paſtors and gouernors / gathered the voices / tooke heede that nothing ſhould be done lightly / nothing tumultuouſly / or out of order. And ſo to conclude / it is an euill reaſon to ſay as M. Doctor doth / that becauſe S. Luke hath / that Paule and Barnabas ordayned / therefore the people were excluded.
And I maruell with what conſcience he coulde anſwere ſo in thys place / eſpecially where it is forthwith added / that they ordayned them by the ſuffrages and voices of the church. But you ſay that the Greeke worde cheirotonein, is by the common opinion of almoſt all Eccleſiaſticall writers / vſed in the ſcripture for the ſolemne maner of ordaining of miniſters by the impoſition of hands / which is the ſecond exception you take to this reaſon. Wherin / but that I hauehave promiſed to holde my ſelfe to the matter / and that theſe bolde aſſeuerances in matters moſt vntrue / are ſo common / that if I ſhould eueryevery fote purſue them / I ſhould weary my ſelfe and all others / I coulde not keepe my ſelfe from running out to maruell at ſuch high ſpeaches / voide of truthe. Firſt / where you ſay that ſome tranſlation hath / that they ordained miniſters wythout making mention of election / what hauehave you gained therby / when I can ſhew mo that tranſlate it otherwiſe / and ſay it is that they ordained by election / or voices / or ſuffrages? I had not the commoditye of bookes / wherby I coulde ſee the iudgement of all Eccleſiaſticall wryters. But of thoſe whych I had / I finde that there was but one only M. Gualter of that minde / and yet he dothe not ſhut out the peoples conſent in the election. Maſter Caluin / M. Beza / M. Bullinger / M. Muſculus / M. Brentius / he that tranſlated Chryſoſtome vppon that place / Eraſmus in his Paraphraſes vponupon that place / are of the contrary iudgement / of whoſe iudgement I would not hauehave ſpoken / if you woulde not hauehave gone about thus to abuſe youre reader / wyth ſuche manifeſt vntruthes / to ouerthrow the order which God hath eſtabliſhed.
But let all authorities of men go / and let vsus examine the thing in it ſelf. If ſo be that the holy ghuſt had ment the ſolemne putting on of the handes vponupon the heades of him that was created elder and miniſter / had he not words enough to vtter this hys meaning? would he hauehave / for laying on of hands / vſed a word that ſignifieth lifting vp of hands? would he hauehave vſed a word ſignifying holding vp for laying downe? for when the hands are layd of the head of an other / they are layd downe / and not holden vp. There are words in the olde Teſtament / and in the newe / before S. Luke wrote / and after he wrote / to expres thys ceremony of laying on of hands / and yet none hauehave euer expreſſed thys.
S. Paule ſpeaketh thriſe of it in his Epiſtles to Timothe / and alwayes he 1. Tim. 4. 14. 1. Tim. 5. 22. 2. Tim. 1. 6.vſeth epitheſis ton cheiron. In the old Teſtament where thys ceremonie is vſed and ſpoken of / the Septuaginta did neuer tranſlate cheirotonein. But as the wryters of the newe Teſtament epitheſis cheiron. And what ſhould I ſtande in thys / when as S. Luke him ſelfe / bothe before and after / ſpeaking of that ceremony 8. Actes. 17. 9. Actes. 17. 19. Actes. 6.of laying on of hands / doth neuer vſe this word cheirotonein, but the ſame word whych ſ. Paule vſeth / and the Septuaginta? and although the holy ghoſt ſpeake properly and wel by whomſoeuer he ſpeaketh / yet it could hauehave ben worſt of all ſayd by S. Luke of all the Canonicall wryters / that he ſhould ſpeake thus vnproperly / who of them all wryteth moſte purely and elegantly / according to the phraſe of the moſte eloquent Grecians / and therfore he borowed this ſpeache of the auncient Greeke wryters / whych did vſe to expres their elections by thys worde / becauſe they were made / and voyces geuen / by thys Ceremonie of lifting vp of handes.
But what if S. Luke hauehave vſed thys worde before / and in thys booke / in the ſignification of chuſing by voyce / dare you then ſay that he vſeth it heere for putting on of hands? In the Actes / S. Peter ſayeth that Chriſt after hys reſurrection / 10. Chap. 41.appeared not vntounto the whole people / but vntounto thoſe whom he had before choſen by his voyce to be hys witneſſes / he vſeth thys word procecheirotonemenous. Nowe if you will ſay heere / that it is to be turned / thoſe of whome he layd his handes / I will aſke you where you read that euer he layd his handes of their heads / I will ſhewe you where he did by hys heauenly voyce appoynt thē. Math. 28. 19.And I thinke you are not able to ſhew in any Greeke author auncient / & which men do take to be autenticall / to teache the propertie or eloquence of the Greeke tongue / I meane which were before S. Luke his time / where the worde cheirotonein, is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any.
Thys I confeſſe that the Greeke Eccleſiaſticall wryters / hauehave ſometimes vſed it ſo / but you muſte remember that S. Luke coulde not learne to ſpeake of them that came two or three hundreth yeares after him / but he borrowed thys phraſe of ſpeache of thoſe that were before him / and therfore ſpeaketh of elections as they did. So that you ſee thys ſhift will not ſerue.
Let vsus therfore ſee your third: whych is / that although the Churches conſent was then required / yet is it not nowe / and that it is no general rule / no more then (ſay you) that all things ſhould be therfore common now / becauſe they were in the Apoſtles time.
The authors of the Admonition / wyth their fauourers / muſte be counted Anabaptiſts / no one word being ſhewed whych tendeth thervnto / you muſt accuſe them whych confirme that foundation whereof they build their communitie of all things / whych is one of their cheefe hereſies. If I ſhoulde ſaye nowe that you are like to thoſe that rowe in a boate / whych although they loke backwards / yet they thruſt a nother way / I ſhould ſpeake with more likelihode thē you hauehave done. For althoughe you make a countenaunce / and ſpeake hotely againſt Anabaptiſtes / yet in deede you ſtrengthen their handes wyth reaſons. But I will not ſay ſo / neither doe I thinke that you fauoure that ſecte / but only the whirlewinde and tempeſt of your affection bent to maintaine this eſtate / whereby you hauehave ſo great honoure and wealth / driueth you vponupon theſe rocks to wracke your ſelfe on / and others.
For I pray you what communitie is ſpoken of either in the ſecond / thirde / or fourth of the Actes / whych ought not to be in the church / as long as ye world ſtandeth? was there any communitie but as touching the vſe / and ſo farre for the as the pore brethren had neede of / and not to take eueryevery man a like? was it not in any man his power to ſell his houſes or landes / or not to ſell them? When he 1. Actes. 45. 5. Acres. 4.had ſolde them / was it not in eueryevery man his libertie / to keepe the money to hymſelfe at his pleaſure? and all they that were of the Church / did not ſell their poſſeſſions / but thoſe whoſe heartes the Lord touched ſingularly wyth the compaſſion of the neede of others / and whome God had bleſſed wyth aboundance / that they had to ſerue them ſelues / and helpe others / and therefore it is reckened as a 4. Actes. 36.rare example / that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite did ſel hys poſſeſſions / and brought the price to the feete of the Apoſtles.
And as for Ananias & Saphira / they were not puniſhed for becauſe they brought not the price of their poſſeſſions to the Apoſtles / but becauſe they lyed / ſaying that they had brought the whole / when they had brought but parte. And to be ſhorte / is there any more done there / then S. Paule preſcribeth to the Corinthians / and in them to all churches to the worldes end? After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the pore churche in Ieruſalem / not (ſayth he) that other 2. Cor. 8. 13. 14ſhould be releeued and you oppreſſed / but vponupon like condition at this time / your aboundance ſupplieth their lacke / that alſo their aboundance maye be for youre lacke / that there might be equalitie / as it is wrytten / he that gathered much / had nothing ouer / and he that gathered little / had not the les.
Surely / it were better you were no Doctor in the Churche / then that the Anabaptiſtes ſhould hauehave ſuche holde to bring in their communitie as you geue them. In ſumme / the Apoſtolike communitie / or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptiſticall.
VntoUnto the place of the ſeconde Epiſtle to the Corinthians / and. 8. chapter / you aſke what maketh that to the election of the miniſters / but why doe not you ſay heere / as you did in the other place that the apoſtle meaneth nothing els but the putting on of the handes of them whych ordained / for the ſame worde cheirotonetheis is heere vſed / that was there / and this place dothe manifeſtly and wythout all contradiction conuince your vaine ſignification that you make of it in the other place / and the vntruthe / ſaying that the ſcripture vſeth thys woorde for a ſolemne manner of ordering miniſters by putting on of handes. For heere it is ſayde that he that was ioyned wyth Paule / was cheirotonetheis by the church / and it is manifeſt that the impoſition of hands was not by the church & people / but by the elders and miniſters / as it appeareth in ſ. Paule to Timothe.1. Tim. 4. 14. 2. Tim. 1. 6.
Now / to come to that which you make ſo light of / for ſay you how foloweth this / the church choſe Luke or Barnabas to be cōpanion of Paule his iourney: Ergo, the churches muſt chuſe their miniſters? It followeth very well / for if it were thought… meete / that Saynte Paule ſhoulde not chuſe hym ſelfe of hys owne authoritie a companion to helpe hym being an Apoſtle / is there any archbyſhoppe that ſhall dare take vppon him to make a miniſter of the goſpell / being ſo many degrees (bothe in authoritie / and in all giftes needefull to diſcerne and trye oute / or take knowledge of a ſufficient miniſter of the goſpell) inferioure to S. Paule?
And if S. Paule woulde hauehave the authoritye of the churche to ordaine the Miniſter that ſhoulde ayde hym in other places for the gathering of reliefe of the poore Churches / howe muche more did he thincke it meete / that the Churches ſhoulde chuſe their owne Miniſter / whych ſhould gouerne them. Which things may be alſo ſayde of the election in the firſt of the Actes: for there the Churche firſte choſe two / whereof one ſhoulde be an Apoſtle / whych ſhoulde not be Miniſter of that Church / but ſhould be ſent into all the world. So that alwayes the Apoſtles hauehave ſhunned to do any thing of their owne willes / without the knowledge eyther of thoſe churches where they inſtituted any gouernors: or if it were for the behofe of thoſe places where there were no churches gathered / yet would they ordaine none / but by the conſent of ſome other churche / whych was already eſtabliſhed. You will not deny / but that in the Apoſtles time / and S. Cyprians time in many places the conſent of the people was required / ſhewe any one place where it was not?
Dothe not S. Luke ſay / that it was done churche by churche / that is in eueryevery churche? And where you ſay it endured but to S. Cyprians time / it ſhall appeare to all men / that it endured in the churche a thouſande yeare and more after hys time. And it appeareth in yt he vſed it not as a thing indifferent / but neceſſary / Cipr. 1. Lib. Epi. 4. ep.and argueth the neceſſitye of it / of the place of the firſt of the Acts / which is alleaged by the authors of the Admonition / and ſo they are not their argumentes that you throwe vp ſo ſcornefully: ſaying / how followeth this / and this / what proueth it / but Cyprians / whome by their ſides you thruſt throughe / and ſo vnreuerently handle. But you ſay theſe examples are no generall rules. Examples of all the Apoſtles / in all churches / and in all purer times / vncontrolied and vnretracted / eyther by any the primitiue and purer churches / or by any rule of the ſcripture / I thinke ought to ſtand. If it were a priuate example of one / or in one place alone / or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the ſcripture / then the example were not alwayes ſafe to follow. But what if there bee commaundement alſo?
In the booke of Numbers / the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites 8. Chap. 10.which preached the word of God to the people in their ſeuerall congregations ſhoulde be brought before the Lorde and before the people / and the people ſhould lay theyr handes vppon the Leuites heades: which / what other thing is it / then to declare their lyking of them / and by that ceremony to conſecrate them / and ſet them aparte for that vſe of their miniſterie? And if you ſay that it were a diſorder that all ſhoulde lay on their handes / I graunt you: but ſo he ſpeaketh / becauſe the approbatiō was by all / and ſome in the name of the reſt declared that / by their laying on of handes.
But me thinketh I heare your olde anſwere / that this pertaineth not vntounto vsus / being a thing done vnderunder the law: but take heede what you ſay / for if you wil admit neyther the generall examples of the newe Teſtament / nor the commaundements and examples of the Olde / take heede that you do not or euer you be aware / ſpoile vsus of the cheefe and principall pillers and buttreſſes of our religion / and bring vsus to plaine Catabaptiſtrie / whych you ſay you are ſo afraid of.
For to proue the Baptiſme of children and yong infantes / what ſtronger holde hauehave we / then that God commaunded in the old Teſtament / ye they ſhould be circumciſed / and examples thereof in the newe Teſtament / for that the Apoſtles baptiſed whole families / wherby all likelyhode there were children. Now / we ſaye that there is thys commaundement in the olde Teſtament / of the miniſters / and there are examples in the newe Teſtament generall and through out / why ſhuld it not then be neceſſary in this / as wel as in the other? Beſides that / in the. 6. of the Actes / the Apoſtles commaund that the church ſhould ſeke them out Deacons / whome they might appoynt ouer the poore.
Touching certaine Ceremonies / I hauehave ſhewed that they are neceſſarye: as namely the Sacraments.
And as for Diſcipline and gouernment / I hauehave ſhewed partly / and more heereafter will be ſhewed / that they are of the ſubſtance of the goſpell / if to hauehave Excommunication / be to hauehave Diſcipline / or if to hauehave paſtors or Byſhops / and Doctors / and Deacons / be gouernment of the Churche. You ſay / that howſoeuer in the Apoſtles time thys vſe was of hauing the conſent of the church in the choiſe of their paſtor or byſhop / nowe in thys eſtate it were moſte pernicious and hurtfull. Wherin / ſee how vnaduiſedly you condemne the churches of Geneua / of all Fraunce / of certaine of the Germaine churches / which keepe thys order. But you alledge your reaſons / therefore thoſe thoſe are to be conſidered / becauſe they come ſo rare. For your manner is / that if you can hauehave but one wryter / newe / or olde of your ſide / or whych ſeemeth to be of your ſide? you runne away wyth the matter / as though you had ſcripture / reaſon / doctors / and all.
I will therefore then take a viewe of your reaſons / when as I ſhall hauehave breefely ſet downe thoſe reaſons / wherby the perpetuall equitie / reaſonablenes / and conueniencie of thys order / that the church ſhould hauehave a ſtroke in her miniſters election may appeare.
It is ſayd amongſt the Lawyers / and in deede reaſon / which is the law of all nations / confirmeth it. Quod omnium intereſt, ab omnibus approbari debet. That whych ſtandeth all men vponupon / ſhould be approued of all men. Which lawe hath this ſenſe / that if it may be / it were good that thoſe things whych ſhall binde all men / and whych require the obedience of all / ſhoulde be concluded as farre as may be / by the conſent of all / or at leaſt by the conſent of as many as may be gotten. And therfore it draweth much the obedience of the ſubiectes of thys realme / that the ſtatutes whereby the realme is gouerned / paſſe by the conſent of the moſte parte of it / whileſt they be made by them / whome the reſt put in truſt / and chuſe for that purpoſe / being as it were all their actes.
So is it alſo when the queſtion is to chuſe the magiſtrate / Mayor / or bailiffe / or Conſtable of eueryevery towne / whych things if they hauehave good groundes in ciuill affaires / they hauehave much better in Eccleſiaſticall. For it is much more vnreaſonable that there ſhould be thruſt vponupon me / a gouernoure of whom the euerlaſting ſaluation or damnation both of my body and ſoule doth depend / then him of whome my wealth and commoditye of thys life doth hang. Onles thoſe vponupon whome he were thruſt / were fooles / or madde men / or children / wythout all diſcretion of ordering them ſelues / whych as I will ſhewe / can not agree wyth thoſe / that are the church of god / and are to hauehave a paſtor. For they of the church of God / although they be called ſheepe in reſpect of their ſimplicitye and harmeleſnes / yet are they alſo for their circumſpection wiſe as ſerpents / in the wiſdom eſpecially whych is to ſaluation: and how vile accompt ſo euer you wil make of of them / they are the people of God / and therfore ſpirituall / and forthwith thoſe of whome S. Paule ſayth / the ſpirituall man diſcerneth all thyngs.1. Cor. 2. 15.
Moreouer / reaſon and experience teacheth / that it maketh muche to the profiting of the church vnderunder the hande of the paſtor or biſhop / that the churche louelove him and reuerence him: For the contempt and hatred of the miniſter for the moſt parte / ſtandeth not in hys owne perſon / but reacheth euen vntounto the doctrine whych he teacheth. But the miniſter that the churche deſireth / it commonly beſt loueth and moſte reuerenceth / and of the other ſide hateth and contemneth hym / that is thruſt vponupon them / therfore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the goſpell / that the miniſter come in / by their conſent. Likewiſe / the people muſt by S. Paule hys rule / folowe the good example of the miniſter: 1. Tim. 4. 12.but men will not likely folowe their examples / whome they louelove not / nor louelove them / whych are thruſt vponupon them againſt their willes / therfore it ſtandeth wyth the good conuerſation and godlye folowing of the ſteppes of the miniſter / that he be wyth the conſent of the Churche.
And if it ſhould happen (whych may come to paſſe) that any church ſhould deſire or chuſe / or conſent vponupon by the moſt part / ſome that is vnmete / eyther for doctrine or manners / then the miniſters and elders of the other churches rounde about / ſhould aduertiſe firſt / and afterward as occaſion ſhould ſerue / ſharply and ſeuerely charge / that they forbeare ſuche election / or if it be made / that they confirme it not / by ſuffering him to exerciſe any miniſterie. And if eyther the churches round about do faile of this duety / or the church whych is admoniſhed / reſt not in their Admonition / then to bring it to the nexte Synode / and if it reſt not therin / then the Prince or Magiſtrate / whych muſt ſee that nothing in the churches be diſorderly and wickedly done / ought to driue that church from that election to an other whych is conuenient. Nowe I will examine the reaſons which you adde to proue / that although in times paſt the church chuſed their miniſters / yet nowe it muſt be otherwiſe.