A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 15
To the fyrſt difference in the. 44. page.
YOu ſay it was in the Apoſtles times vnderunder the croſſe / and therfore few / and ſo might eaſely knowe one an other / who were fitte for the miniſterie: But you forget your ſelfe maruellouſly. For in the Apoſtles times / the churche I meane viſible and ſenſible (for elſe how could it be perſecuted) was ſowne not only through out all Aſia (whych is the greateſt part of the world) but through a great part of Affrica / and no ſmall portion of Europe: and nowe it is ſhut in a ſmall corner of Europe / being altogither baniſhed out of Aſia and Affrica. And therfore there are not the tithe nowe / of thoſe that profeſſed the goſpell then / and what a concluſion is thys / the churches were few in numbre / becauſe they were vnderunder the croſſe. For to let paſſe bothe other ſcriptures and ſtories eccleſiaſtical / hauehave you forgotten that whych is ſayd in Exodus / that the more the children of Chap. 1. 12.Iſraell were preſſed and perſecuted / the more they multiplied? Thē you ſay they kepte togither / and mette often / and ſo knowing one another / were beſt able to iudge one of an other. But heerein you ſpeake as one that hathe ſmall experience of perſecuted churches / for in the time of perſecution / the chriſtians that were in one great citie / were faine to gather them ſelues oute of all the corners / and from all the endes of the Citie / to one place / being not able to deuide them ſelues into many pariſhes / bothe for other conſiderations / and becauſe they were not able to maintaine many miniſters / and elders / and Deacons / wherby it may be vnderſtande / that by all likelyhode in one great citye / they had but one congregation / and therfore that muſt needes be ſcattered heere and there / and ſo could not hauehave the commoditye eyther of often meeting / or of knowing one an other ſo well / as where ſuche a citie is deuided into many churches. Thoſe that knowe the eſtate of Fraunce in the time of perſecution / do well vnderſtand that eueryevery church almoſt was gathered of townes / whereof ſome were ſixe miles / ſome ſeuen / ſome more / from the place of meeting / and keeping their congregations. And therefore coulde not meete ſo often / nor knowe one an other ſo well / as we / by the grace of God may do / whych meete oftner / and in les number then they doe.
To the ſecond difference.
To your ſeconde difference I anſwere / that in deede there be hipocrites in our churches now / and ſo were there then / but moe nowe / than then: I graunte you that alſo / but there is no great daunger in them / as touching the election of the miniſter or byſhop / for that in ſuche open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men / there is no good man will doe ſo holily / as they will doe / although it be fainedly. The hurt that they do / is in cloſer and ſecreater matters. But where you ſay oure churches are full of drunkardes and whoremongers: beſides that / you vtter or euer you be aware / howe euill ſucces the preaching of the goſpell hath had heere (for want of diſcipline and good eccleſiaſticall gouernment) you bewray a great ignoraunce. For although there be hipocrites / whych beare the face of godly men in the churche / whoſe wickednes is onlye knowne to God / and therfore can not be diſcouered by men / yet in the churches of Chriſte there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers / at leaſt whych are knowne. For either vponupon admonition of the churche they repent / and ſo are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers / or elſe they are cutte of by excommunication (if they continue ſtubborne in their ſinnes) and ſo are none of the churche / and therefore hauehave nothing to do in the election of the miniſter of the church. And me thincketh you ſhuld not hauehave ben ignorāt of this / that although there be * tares in the floure of Math. 13. 25.the church / whych are like the wheat / & therfore being groūd / eaſely mete togither in ye lofe / yet there are no acornes whych are bread for ſwine. And although there be * goates amongſt the flocke of the churche / becauſe they hauehave ſome likelyhode Math. 25. 32.wyth the ſheepe / feeding as they doe / geuing milke as they doe / yet in the church of Chriſte / there are no ſwine / nor hogges. It pertaineth to God only / to ſeuere the tares from the wheate / and the goates from the ſheepe / but the churches can diſcerne betweene wheat and acornes / betweene ſwine and ſheepe.
To the thirde in the. 44. page.
If they had knowledge then / it was becauſe they were taughte / and that they are ignorant nowe / it is becauſe they hauehave no good miniſters to teach them / and if the churches ſhould chuſe their miniſters / I am ſure they coulde not chuſe worſe / then for the moſte parte / they hauehave nowe / being thruſt vponupon them.
To the fourth in. 45. page.
I ſee that when a man is out of hys way / the further he goeth / the worſe. Before you placed in the church whoremongers and drunkards / as filthy ſwine in the Lordes courtes / nowe you bring in Papiſtes / and Idolaters / and Atheiſtes / whych are not only filthy / but alſo poyſoned and venoumed beaſtes. I am not ignorant of that diſtinction / whych ſayth that there be in the churche / whych are not of the church / and thoſe are hypocrites as is before ſayd: but I woulde gladly learne of you / what ſcripture there is to proue / that Idolaters and Papiſtes / and Atheiſtes are in the church / when S. Paule calleth all ſuche wythout 1. Cor. 5. 12.the churche / and wyth whome the churche had nothing to doe / nor they with the church. You might as well hauehave placed in the church / Wolues / Tigres / Lions / and Beares / that is Tirantes and perſecutors. For thoſe ye ſpeake of / are (in the iudgement of men and of the church) as well ſhut out of it / as they in the eye of the Lord: they may in time be of the church / and ſo may and are ſometimes the perſecutors themſelues: ſo it appeareth that the election of the church / is not / nor ought not / to be hindered by thoſe / that hauehave nothing to do with it. But now I heare you aſke me / what then ſhal become of the Papiſts and Atheiſts / if you will not hauehave them be of the church? I anſwer that they may be of / & in the common wealth / whych neither may / nor can be of / nor in the churche. And therfore the churche hauing nothing to doe wyth ſuche / the magiſtrate ought to ſee / that they ioyne to heare the ſermons in the place where they are made / whether it be in thoſe pariſhes where there is a church / and ſo preaching / or where elſe he ſhall thinke beſt / and cauſe them to be examined / howe they profite / and if they profite not / to puniſhe them / & as their contempt groweth / ſo to encreaſe the puniſhmēt / vntill ſuche times as they declare manifeſt tokens of vnrepentantnes and then as rotten members / that doe not onlye no good / nor ſeruice in the bodye / but alſo corrupt and infect others / cut them off: And if they do profit in hearing / then to be adioyned vntounto that church / whych is next the place of their dwelling.
To the fifte in the. 45. page.
If there be no churches eſtabliſhed / becauſe there are no chriſtian Magiſtrates / then the churches of the Apoſtles were not eſtabliſhed. And it is abſurd to ſay / that the miniſters nowe wyth the helpe of the magiſtrate / can laye ſurer foundations of the church / or build more cunningly or ſubſtancially / then the Apoſtles could / whych were the maſter builders of the church of God. And as for the conſummation of the body of the church / and the beautie of it / ſeeing it conſiſteth in Ieſus Chriſte / whych is the heade / that is alwayes ioyned vnſeperably in all times of the croſſe / and not the croſſe wyth his body / whych is the church: I can not ſee why the churches vnderunder perſecution / ſhould not be eſtabliſhed / hauing bothe the foundation and the nether moſt partes / as alſo the toppe and hyeſt parte of the churche / as well as thoſe whych hauehave a chriſtian magiſtrate. If in deede the magiſtrate / whom God hath ſanctified to be a nurſe vntounto his churche / were alſo the head of the ſame / then the church could not be eſtabliſhed wythout the magiſtrate / but we learne that although the godly magiſtrate be the head of the common wealth / and a great ornament vntounto the church / yet he is but a member of the ſame. The churche maye be eſtabliſhed wythoute the magiſtrate / and ſo / that all the world / and all the Deuilles of hell can not ſhake it / but it can not be in quiet / in peace / and in outwarde ſuretie / wythout a godly magiſtrate: And therefore the churche in that reſpecte and ſuche like / praiſeth God and prayeth for the magiſtrate / by the whych it enioyeth ſo ſingulare benefites. Therevppon you conclude / that the church was then populare / whych is as vntrue / as the former parte. For the churche is gouerned wyth that kinde of gouernment / whych the Philoſophers / that wryte of the beſt common wealthes / affirme to be the beſt. For in reſpecte of Chriſte the heade / it is a Monarchie / and in reſpecte of the auncientes and paſtoures / that gouerne in common / and wyth like authoritie amongſte them ſelues / it is an Ariſtocratie / or the rule of the beſt men / and in reſpecte that the people are not ſecluded / but hauehave their intereſt in churche matters / it is a Democratie / or a populare eſtate. An image whereof appeareth alſo in the pollicye of thys Realme / for as in reſpecte of the Queene her maieſtie / it is a Monarchie / ſo in reſpecte of the moſte honourable Counſell / it is an Ariſtocratie / and hauing regard to the Parliament / whych is aſſembled of al eſtates / it is a Democratie. But you ſhould hauehave ſhewed / howe this difference of hauing a chriſtian magiſtrate / & hauing none / ought to bryng in a diuerſity in the choiſe of the paſtoure by their churche. It were not harde / if one woulde ſpende hys time ſo vnprofitably / to finde oute a hundred differences betweene a perſecuted church / and that whych is in peace / but ſeeing you can ſhewe me no reaſon / why the church may not chuſe her miniſter / as well vnderunder a godly magiſtrate / as vnderunder a tyrante / I will ſhewe you / howe that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God / it were meeter in the time of perſecution / that the election ſhoulde be in ſome other diſcreate and learned perſons hands / to be made without the conſent of the churche: then in that time when there is a godly magiſtrate / and that it is then moſt conuenient that he ſhould be choſen by the church.
In the time of perſecution a churche chuſeth an vnlearned miniſter / or one that is wicked in life / howſoeuer it be / he is vnfit / the churches rounde about by their miniſters or elders admoniſhe this church of her fault / and moue to correct it / the church will by no meanes be admoniſhed: what can nowe the other churches do in the time of perſecution? if they excommunicate the whole churche / it is a hard matter / & yet if they may do that / there is all they can do: the euil is not remedied / whych may be eaſely taken awaye / where there is a godly magiſtrate / and the churche (as is before ſayde) compelled to a better choyſe / ſo you ſee that there are inconueniences in the chuſing of the paſtor / and other the gouernors of the churche / by the churche / in the time of perſecution / whych are not in the time of peace vnderunder a chriſtian magiſtrate.
Now I wil ſhew you (which thinke that the conſent of the church in their miniſter / can not ſtand with the time of a chriſtian magiſtrate) that it hathe not only ſtode / but hath bene cōfirmed in their times / and by them. In codice Iuſtiani: it is thus wrytten / following the doctrine of the holy Apoſtles. &c. we ordaine / that as often as it ſhall fall out / that the miniſters place ſhall be voyde in any citie / that voyces be geuen of the inhabiters of that city / that he of three (which for their right faith / holines of life / and other good things are moſt approued) ſhould be choſen to the Byſhoprike / whych is the moſte meete of them. Alſo Carolus Magnus / whych was the firſt Germaine Emperoure in. 63. diſtinct. ſacrorum canonum ſayth / being not ignorante of the holy Canons / that the holy churche in the name of God ſhould vſe her honoure the freelyer / we aſſent vntounto the Eccleſiaſticall order / that the byſhops be choſen by election of the cleargye and people / according to the ſtatutes of the canons of that dioceſſe.
In the. 63. diſtinction it appeareth / that Ludouicus Carolus hys ſonne decreed / that he ſhould be biſhop of Rome / whom all the people of Rome ſhould cōſent to chuſe. Platina alſo in the life of pope Adrian. 2. writeth that Ludouike the ſeconde by hys letters commaunded the Romaines / that they ſhoulde chuſe their owne biſhop / not loking for other mennes voyces / whych being ſtraūgers / could not ſo well tell what was done in the common weale where they were ſtraungers / and that it appertained to the Citizens.
The ſame Platina witneſſeth in the life of Pope Leo the. 8. that whē the people of Rome were earneſt with the Emperoure Otho the firſt / that he wold take awaye one Pope Iohn that liued very licentiouſly and riotouſly / and place an other / the ſame Emperoure anſweared / that it pertained to the cleargye and people to chuſe one / and willed them that they ſhoulde chuſe / and he woulde approue it: and when they had choſen Leo / and after put hym out wythout cauſe / and choſe one Pope Benet / he compelled them to take Leo agayne. Whereby appeareth that in thoſe eſtates where Magiſtrates were Chriſtian / and where the eſtate was moſte of all Monarchicall / that is ſubiecte to ones gouernment / that thys vſe of the Churche remained and was confirmed by the Emperours / and alſo when the churche put oute any wythout good cauſe / that then the Magiſtrates ſhoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye. In deede the byſhop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes / becauſe of the lyghtneſſe of the people / as Platina maketh mention / but that is not the matter / for I do nothing elſe heere but ſhew / that the elections of the miniſters by the Church / were vſed in the times of the Emperoures / and by their conſentes: and ſeeing that Otho confeſſed it pertayned not vntounto him / it is to be doubted / whether he tooke it at the Biſhop his handes.
And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byſhop to that Citie / where it made moſt for their ſuertie to hauehave one of their owne appoyntment / as was Rome / which with their byſhoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble: it is to be thought / that in other places both Cities & townes / they dyd not deny the elections of the miniſters / to the people. Beſides that / certayne of thoſe conſtitutions are not of Rome / but of any citie whatſoeuer. And theſe Emperoures were / and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares / vntill the very poynt of a thouſande yeares after Chriſt / ſo that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church / albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny / and went about to take all libertie from the churches / was now on horſe backe / & had placed hym ſelfe in that Antichriſtian ſeate.