A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 11 – Part 13
To the next ſection beginning in the. 38. page.
WHat ought to be generall / if thys ought not / to put the miniſter that hathe bene an idolater / from hys myniſterie? is it not a commaūdement of God / and geuen / not of one Leuite or two / but of all thoſe that went backe / not at one tyme / but at others alſo / when the like occaſion was geuen / as appeareth in the booke of Kings / where all the prieſtes of the Lord that had ſacrificed in the 2. Chap. 23. 9.high places / were not ſuffered to come to the altare in Ieruſalem? Doth not S. Paul make ſmaller cauſes of depoſing from the myniſtery then idolatrie? for after 1. Timo. 3.he hath deſcribed what manner of men the miniſters ſhould be / and deacons / he addeth: And being tryed / let them execute their functions / as long as they remayne blameleſſe. I thinke if ſo be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer / although he repented him / yet none that is well aduiſed / would take him into the miniſterie. For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij. wyues at once (which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull / and that was common amongſt them / and had preuayled throughout all the world) how much les would he ſuffer any to be admitted to the miniſterie / which ſhould be an adulterer / and hauehave an other mans wyfe / which is condemned of all that profeſſe the name of Chriſt / and which is not ſo generall a miſcheefe as that was: Or would he ſuffer him to abyde in the miniſterie / which ſhould commit ſuch wickednes during his function / lykewyſe of a murtherer. Now the ſinne of Idolatry is greater & more deteſtable / then any of them / in as much as pertayning to the firſt table / it immediatly ſtayneth Gods honor / and breaketh duetie to him / vntounto whom we more owe it (without all compariſon) then to any mortall man. And if S. Paul in the choyſe of the widow / to attende vponupon the ſicke of the church / which was the loweſt office in the church / requireth not only ſuch a one as is at the time of the choiſe / honeſt and holy / but ſuch a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes / and with commendation / how much more is that to be obſerued in the miniſter or byſhop of the church / that he be not only at the tyme of his choyſe / but all other times before ſuch a one / as hath lyued without any notable / and open offence of thoſe / amongſt whome he had his conuerſation.
If I ſhould ſtand with you / whether Peter his forſwearing that he knew not Chriſt / were a greater fault then to go from the goſpell to idolatrie / and there in / for ſome long ſpace to continue / as the Leuites dyd / I ſhoulde trouble you. For if a man / ſodenly and at a puſh / for feare / and to ſaue his life / ſay and ſweare he is no chriſtian / and the ſame day repent him of hys fault / although it be a great and haynous cryme / yet it ſeemeth not to be ſo great / as his is / which not only denyeth Chriſt in words / but doth it alſo in deedes / and worſhippeth Antichriſt / and continueth in that worſhip / not a day / but moneths / and yeares.
But I wil anſwere you / that euen as our ſauiour Chriſt called S. Paule in the heate of his perſecution / & whē he was a blaſphemer vntounto the Apoſtleſhip / ſo he hauing the law in his owne handes / and making no lawes for him ſelfe / but for vsus / might call S. Peter alſo to that function / which had thriſe denyed him.
But as it is not lawfull for vsus / to follow the example of Chriſt in calling of Paul / by admitting thoſe which are new conuerted / hauing a contrary precept geuen / that no * new plant / or greene chriſtian / ſhould be taken to the myniſterie: 1. Tim. 3. 6.So is it not lawfull / to follow that example of our ſauiour Chriſt / the contrary being commaunded / as I hauehave before alledged. For albeit the examples of our ſauiour Chriſt be to be followed of vsus / yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary / then we muſt know / that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way / as it were the common cauſſie of the commaundement / rather then an outpathe of the example.
I know Ambroſe was taken newly from Paganiſme / to be biſhop of Millaine / for the great eſtimatiō & credite he had amongſt the people / but beſides that I hauehave ſhewed / that ſuche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden. The errors and corrupt expounding of ſcriptures / which are founde in his workes / declare that it had bene more ſafe for the churche / if by ſtudie of the ſcriptures / he hadde firſt bene a ſcholer of dyuinitie / or euer he hadde beene made doctor. There may be more examples ſhewed out of that / which you call the prymitiue churche / to the contrary of that which you ſay. For when they vſed often tymes agaynſte thoſe that hadde ſo falne ſuche ſeueritie (in deede extreme and exceſſiue) that they were neuer after / vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table: I leaue to you to thinke / whether they woulde then ſuffer any ſuche to execute the function 1. Lib. Epiſt. epiſt. 7.of the miniſterie. Beſides that S. Cyprian hath alſo a ſpeciall treatiſe of thys / that thoſe that hauehave ſacrificed to idolles / ſhould not be permitted any more to miniſter in the church. But you aſke what they ſay to M. Luther / Bucer / Crannier / Latimer / Ridley? I pray you when dyd theſe excellent perſonages / euer ſlide from the goſpell vntounto idolatrie? which of them dyd euer ſay Maſſe / after God had opened them the truth? what hath ſo blynded you that you can not diſtinguiſhe and put a difference / betweene one that hauing bene nouſled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie / commeth afterwardes out of it / and betweene hym / which hauing knowledge of the goſpell / afterward departeth from it / and of ſuch is the place of Ezechiel / of ſuch I ſay / as hauehave gone backe and fallen away.
I know none / that hauehave beene preachers of the goſpell / and after in the time of Queene Mary malſemongers / which now are zealous / godly / & learned preachers / and if there be any ſuche / I thincke for offence ſake / the Church might better be without them then hauehave them. You ſay God in that place ſheweth how greuous a ſinne idolatrie is / in the prieſtes eſpecially. And is it not now more greuous in the myniſter of the goſpell / whoſe function is more precious and knowledge greater? And if the ſinne be greater / ſhould it hauehave now a leſſe puniſhment / then it had then? how ſhall the fault be eſteemed great or little / but by ye greatnes or ſmalneſſe of the puniſhment? you ſayde before the places of Deuteronomie / touching adding and diminiſhing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth / were for the Iewes / and are not for our times. And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel / you ſay / ſerued for that time / and not for oures.
You worke a ſure way / which to mayntayne your corruptions / deny the ſcripture / which ſpeaketh agaynſt them / to be vnderſtanded of thoſe which be in our time / and that to be vnderſtanded of our miniſters / which was of theirs / or of our faultes / which was of theirs. Thys is not the way to Anabaptiſme / but to all hereſies / and ſchiſmes / that euer hauehave bene or ſhall be. For if you goe forwarde in clipping the ſcripture / as you begin / you will leaue vsus nothing in the ende / wherewith we may eyther defend our ſelues agaynſt heretikes / or be able to ſtrike at them.
Whereas you ſay / there is a great difference / betweene the ſeueritie of the law / and lenitie of the goſpell / me thinkes I ſmell a ſpice of the error of the Maniches / which were alſo ſchollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon / that there is a good and an euill / a gentle and a ſeuere God / one vnderunder the law / and an other vnderunder the goſpell. For to ſaye that God was then a ſeuere punyſher of ſinne / and that now he is not at ſo great hatred wyth it / but that he will hauehave it gentlyer and ſoftlyer dealt with: is euen all one in effect with that / which ſuppoſeth two Goddes. I will ioyne with you in it / that the tranſgreſſyons of the law in the tyme of the goſpell oughte rather to be ſeuerelyer punyſhed / then they were vnderunder the law / for as muche as the knowledge is greater / and the aboundance of the ſpirite of God / whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull / then vnderunder the lawe.
At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which propheſying 13. Chap. 3.of the kingdome of Chriſte / and of the tyme of the goſpell ſayth / that then the father and mother of the falſe Prophet ſhall cauſe theyr owne ſonne to bee put to deathe. It is as abſurde which is brought / to proue that the papiſtes whiche worſhippe God falſly / doe not faulte ſo haynouſly as the Iſraelites dyd / which worſhipped the Idolles. As who ſhoulde ſaye / the Iewes or any other the groſſeſt idolaters that euer were / dyd euer take thoſe thinges which they worſhipped / Serpentes / Oxen / Fire / Water. &c. to be God / or knew not the Images before which they fell downe / were Woode or Stone / Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not / that they thought that they worſhipped by them and in them / the God which made heauen & earth. The Iewes when they molted a golden Exod. 32.calfe / and fell downe before it / did neuer thinke that to be God / * but ſayde that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah. Wherein I will put you ouer to ye learned treatiſes of the godly new wryters / which do refute this diſtinction being brought of the papiſtes / as a ſhift to proue that the Idolatrie which is forbidden in the olde Teſtament / toucheth not them / becauſe they worſhip God by theſe things / and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels / worſhipped nothing elſe / nor loked at nothing elſe / thē the bare things before which they fell down. Which ſelfe ſame diſtinction you bring to proue / that papiſtrie is not ſo deteſtable / as the idolatrie of the Iewes. It may be / that certayne of the Gentiles worſhipped by their images / Iupiter and Iuno. &c. but you can not ſhew / that the Iſraelites euer worſhipped any other God / then the true God / ſo that their fault was only / in that they worſhipped him otherwiſe / then he had appoynted. And the Gentiles that worſhipped many Gods / worſhipped one as the head and cheefe / and the reſt as ſmall companions / and as they termed them / minorum gentium deos, as the papiſtes doe God as the cheefe / and the ſainctes as other petie gods.
And here all men may ſee / what a good proctor you be for the papiſtes / bothe in leſtning their faultes / and abating their puniſhments / and yet will not I ſaye / that you are conſpired with them / or hauehave receiued your ſee of them. But if you can ſhew where / or in what one poynt / thoſe that you charge with confederacie / hauehave layde ſo ſofte pillowes vnderunder their heades as theſe are: they refuſe not to be called confederate and conſpired with the papiſtes.
To the next ſection in the. 40. page.
WHat ſhould become of the people in the meane ſeaſon / whileſt they learne their Catechiſme / and when they hauehave learned it / they are no more fitte to be Miniſters and to teach other / then he that hath learned his Accidence / is meete to ſet vp a ſchole. And it can not be defended / but it was a groſſe ouer ſight / to enioyne miniſters to learne a Catechiſme. It were much to compel them to read it. And if a man would hauehave declamed agaynſt the ignoraunce of the moſt part of the miniſters / three whole dayes together / he could not hauehave ſayde more againſt them / then that Canon which ſendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion. How know you / that they quote the Catechiſme in the margent in deriſion? is there any ſillable or letter that ſoundeth that wayes? if you coniecture it becauſe they hauehave ſet it in the margent / you may as well ſay that they likewiſe quote the ſcriptures in deriſion / being alſo placed there.
But how followeth this? it is meete that miniſters ſhoulde learne euerye day / therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechiſmes? it is meete they ſhoulde reade Cathechiſmes / therefore meete to learne them / and be enioyned to learne them? is there nothing worthyer the learning and profeſſion of the miniſter / then to learne Cathechiſmes? or dothe a manne learne thoſe thinges alwayes / which he readeth? dothe he not reade thinges ſome tyme to record the things that he hath learned. For becauſe they ſay it is not meete that miniſters ſhould be enioyned to learne a Cathechiſme / you conclude of their wordes / that they would not hauehave a miniſter to learne / or to reade any thing / which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther / as you are from the reaſonable and vpright expounding of them.
To the two next ſections in the. 41. and. 42. page.
IT hath bene likewiſe ſhewed / what was in that election extraordinarie / and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings. And in the .vj. of the Actes it was ſhewed / that if the Deacons ſhoulde not be thruſt vppon the congregation agaynſt the will of it / muche leſſe ought the miniſter. And if that congregation had by the commaundement of the Apoſtles an intereſt in the choyſe of their gouernoures / I ſee not why the ſame commaundement remayneth not to be followed of other churches. Your reaſons wherewith you would make difference / ſhal be after conſidered.