A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 6
The Anſwere from. Nowe if either godly councels / vntounto I truſt M. Caluins iudgement will weigh.
HEere are brought in Iuſtin Martyr / Ireneus / Tertullian / Cyprian / and councels / as dumme perſons in the ſtage only to make a ſhewe / and ſo they go out of the ſtage without ſaying any thing. And if they had had any thing to ſay in this cauſe for theſe matters in controuerſye / there is no doubt / but M. Doctor would hauehave made them ſpeake. For when he placeth ye greateſt ſtrength of hys cauſe in antiquitie / he would not hauehave paſſed by Iuſtin / Ireneus / Tertullian / Cyprian / being ſo auncient / and taken Auguſtin / whych was a great time after them. And if the godly councels coulde hauehave helped heere / it is ſmall wiſedome to take Auguſtine / and leaue them. For I thinke he might hauehave learned that amongſt the authorities of mē / the credite of many is better then of one: and that thys is a generall rule / that as the iudgement of ſome notable perſonage is loked vntounto in a matter of debate / more then theirs of the common ſorte / ſo the iudgement of a councell / where many learned men be gathered together / caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it / then the iudgement of one man / although it be but a prouinciall councell / much more then / if it be a generall / and therfore you do your cauſe great iniurie / if you could alledge them / and do not. Thys is once to be obſerued of the reader throughout your whole boke / that you hauehave well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for miſalledging the ſcriptures / for that onles it be in one or two poynts / we heare continually (inſtead of Eſay and Ieremy / S. Paule / and S. Peter / and the reſt of the Prophets and Apoſtles) S. Auguſtin and S. Ambroſe / kai to en te phake myron, Dionyſius Areopagita / And as we ſay in our tongue / Nettles amōg Roſes.Clement. &c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papiſtes from their antiquitie / councels / and fathers / to the triall of the ſcriptures / who in the controuerſies whych riſe amongſt our ſelues / flie ſo farre from them / that it wanteth not much / that they are not baniſhed of your part / from the deciding of all theſe controuerſies.
And if thys be a ſufficient proofe of things to ſay / ſuche a Doctor ſayde ſo / ſuche a councell decreed ſo / there is almoſt nothing ſo true but I can impugne / nothing ſo falſe / but I can make true. And well aſſured I am / that by their meanes / the principall groundes of our faith may be ſhaken.
And therfore / becauſe you hauehave no proofe in the worde of God / we comfort our ſelues / aſſured / that for ſo muche as the foundations of the Archbyſhop and Lordſhip of Biſhops and of other things / which are in queſtion / be not in heauen / that they wil fall and come to the ground / from whence they were taken.
Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe / and that they are of men and not of God: The anſwearer goeth about to proue / that they came yet out of good earthe / and from good men / whych if he had obtained / yet he may well know / that it is no good argument to proue that they are good. For as the beſt earth bringeth forth weedes / ſo do the beſt men / bring forth lies and errors. But let vsus heare what is brought / that if thys viſarde and ſhewe of truthe be taken away / all men may perceiue / howe good occaſion we hauehave to complaine / and howe iuſt cauſe there is of reformation. In the firſt place of S. Auguſtine there is nothing againſt any thing whych we hold / for thys / that the church may hauehave thyngs not expreſſed in the ſcripture / is not againſte / that it oughte to hauehave nothing / but that may be warranted by the ſcripture. For they may be according to the ſcripture / and by the ſcripture / whych are not by plaine termes expreſſed in the ſcripture. But againſt you it maketh muche / & ouerturneth all your building in this boke. For if in thoſe things whych are not expreſſed in ye ſcripture / that is to be obſerued of the Church / whych is the cuſtome of the people of God / and decree of oure forefathers: then howe can theſe things be varyed according to time / place / & perſons / (whych you ſay ſhould be) when as yt is to be retained / which ye people of God hath vſed / & the decrees of the forefathers hauehave ordained. And thē alſo how can we do ſafelier / then to folow the apoſtles cuſtomes and the churches in their time / which we are ſure are our for fathers / & the people of god.
Beſides that / how can we retaine the cuſtomes and conſtitutions of the papiſts in ſuch things / which were neither the people of God / nor our forefathers.
I wil not enter now / to diſcus / whether it were wel done to faſt in al places according to the cuſtome of the place. You oppoſe Amb. & Aug. I could oppoſe Tertull. de coron. milit. Ignatius ad Ph. epiſt. 5.Ignatius and Tertullian / wherof the one ſaith it is (nefas) a deteſtable thing to faſt vponupon the Lordes day / the other / ye it is to kil the Lord / & this is the inconuenience that cometh of ſuch vnlearned kinde of reaſoning / S. Ambroſe ſayth ſo / & therfore it is true. And although Amb. and Aug. being ſtraungers and priuate men at Rome wold hauehave ſo done / yet it foloweth not / yt if they had ben citizens & miniſters there y• they wold hauehave don it / & if they had don ſo to / yet it foloweth not but they would hauehave ſpoken againſt ye appoyntment of dayes / & nomotheſian, of 17. chap. of the 5. booke. Aug. de temp. 62. ſerm. Amb. 10. lib. ep.faſting / wherof Euſebius ſaith / that Montanus was the firſt author. I ſpeake of that which they ought to hauehave done / for otherwiſe I know they both thought corruptly of faſting: whē as the one ſayth / it was remedy or reward to faſt other dayes / but in Lent / not to faſt / was ſinne: and the other aſketh / what ſaluation we can obtaine / if we blot not our ſinnes by faſting / ſeing yt the ſcripture ſayth / ye faſting & almes doth deliuer from ſin / & therfore calleth them new teachers / that ſhut out the merite of faſting. Which I therfore recite / becauſe you would ſeme by Aug. & Ambroſe iudgements / to alow of the weekely and commanded faſts. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium. 118. I can not tell / you charge the authors of the admonition to be conſpired wt the papiſtes / I will not charge you ſo / but wil thinke better of you / vntil the contrary do more appeare. But I appeale to the iudgement of all men / if this be not to bring in popery again / to allow of ſ. Aug. ſaying / wherin he ſayth that the celebrating of the day of the paſſion. &c. is either of ſome generall councel / or of the Apoſtles commaūded & decreed / wherby a gate is opē vntounto the papiſts to bring in / vnderunder the coloure of traditions / all their beggery whatſoeuer. For you plainly confirme / that there is ſome thing neceſſary to be obſerued / which is not contained any wayes in ye ſcripture. For to keepe thoſe holy dayes / is not contained in the ſcripture / neither can be concluded of any part therof / and yet they are neceſſary to be kept / if they be commaunded of the Apoſtles. Therefore in your opinion / ſome thing is neceſſary to be kept / which is not contained in the ſcriptures / nor can not be concluded of them. And if you ſay / that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout / whether it were the Apoſtles tradition & ſtatute / or a generall councels / then you bring vsus yet to a worſe point / that we can not be aſſured of ye which is neceſſary for vsus to knowe / that is whether the Apoſtles did ordaine that theſe dayes ſhould be kept as holy dayes / or the coūcels. And that it is S. Auguſtins meaning / to father ſuch like things Tom. 7. de baptiſ. contra Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23.of the Apoſtles / it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth / ſaying. There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth / and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apoſtles / although they be not founde wrytten. If thys iudgement of ſ. Auguſtine be a good iudgement and a ſounde / then there be ſome things commaunded of God / which are not in the ſcriptures / & therfore there is no ſufficient doctrine contained in the ſcriptures / wherby we may be ſaued. For al the commaundements of God & of the apoſtles / are nedeful for our ſaluation.
And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you: before you ſayd / that the Lords day which was vſed for the day of reſt in the Apoſtles time / may be chaūged / as the place / and houre of prayer: but the day of the paſſion & reſurrection. &c. you either thruſt vponupon vsus as the decree of the apoſtles / or at leaſt put vponupon vsus a neceſſity of keping of them / leaſt haply in breaking of them / we might breake the Apoſtles decree / for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apoſtles / which of them decreed this. And do you not perceiue / how you ſtil reaſon againſt your ſelf? for if the church hauehave had ſo great regard to yt which the apoſtles did in their times / that they kept thoſe things which are not wryttē / and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vſed them or no / how much more ſhould we hold our ſelues to theſe things / whych are wrytten / that they did / and of the whych we are aſſured? As touching the obſeruation of theſe holy dayes / I will refer the reader vntounto an other place / where occaſion is geuen againe to ſpeake of them. As for that rule y• he geueth when he ſayth whatſoeuer is not. &c. and for the laſt of the three rules / I receiue them with hys owne interpretation / whych he hath afterward in. 119. epiſt. ad Ianuarium, which is / that it be alſo profitable.
And as for thoſe three rules / whych you ſaye / are worthye to be noted / I can ſee nothing that they helpe your cauſe one whit / for I knowe no man that euer denyed / but that the churche may in ſuche things as are not ſpecified / and preciſely determined / make orders ſo they be grounded of thoſe generall rules whych I hauehave before alledged out of S. Paule.
And as for the ſecond of the three rules / I can not at any hand allow it. For when all chriſtianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie / thyngs were vniuerſally obſerued / whych to kepe / were mere wickednes / and thys ſtrengtheneth the papiſtes vniuerſalitie.
Concerning your gloſe (if it be not repugnant to the ſcripture) beſides that it is not enough / becauſe it muſt be grounded by the ſcripture / and that it is wicked to geue ſuch authority to any decree of men / that a man ſhould not enquire of it / or reaſon of it / I hauehave ſhewed that he ment nothing les. For affirming that ſuche thyngs are the Apoſtles commaundements / hys meaning was / that they ſhould be wythout all exception receiued / and abſolutely. How much better is it / that we take heede to the words of the Apoſtle / then either to S. Auguſtins or yours / whych ſayth / that if he / or an angel from heauen / ſhould preach any other Gal. 1. 8.goſpell / then that whych he had preached / that they ſhould hold hym accurſed: he ſayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine / but any other goſpell.
But tel me / why paſſed you by yt in Auguſtin which he * wryteth to Iunuarie Epiſt. 119.that thoſe thyngs whych are not contained in the ſcripture / nor decreed of coūcelles / nor confirmed by generall cuſtomes / but are varied by the manners of regions and of men / vponupon occaſion offered / ought to be cutte of / although they ſeeme not to be againſt faith / becauſe they pres wyth ſeruile burdens the religion / whych Chriſt would hauehave free. Thys ſentence belike was to hotte for you / you coulde not cary it. The reſt whoſe names you recite (whych you ſaye you leaue of for breuitie ſake) I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to conſider / wherfore they be left out / ſeeing that Auguſtin in whom you put ſo great truſt / anſwereth ſo little to your expectation. Thys is certaine / that breuitie (whych you pretend) was in ſmall commendation with you / whych make ſo often repetitions / ſtuffe in diuers ſentences of Doctors and wryters / to proue things that no man denyeth / tranſlate whole leaues to ſo ſmall purpoſe / vponupon ſo light occaſions / make ſo often digreſſions / ſometimes againſt the vnlernednes / ſometimes againſt the malice / ſometimes againſt the intemperancie of ſpeach of the authors of the admonition / and eueryevery hand while pulling out the ſworde vponupon them / and throughout the whole boke / ſporting your ſelfe wyth the quotations in the margent / ſo that if all theſe where taken out of your boke / as winde out of a bladder / we ſhould hauehave had it in a narow roume / whych is thus ſwelled into ſuch a volume / and in ſtead of a boke of .ij. s. we ſhould hauehave had a pamfiet of two pence.
And whereas you ſay / that you hauehave not alleaged theſe learned fathers for the authors of the libell / but for the wiſe / diſcrete / humble / and learned / to them alſo I leaue it to conſider / vponupon that / whych is alledged by me. Firſt / howe lyke a diuine it is / to ſeeke for rules in the Doctors / to meaſure the making of ceremonies by / whych you mighte hauehave had in the ſcriptures: there / at the riuers / heere / at the fountaine / vncerten there / whych heere are certen / there / in parte falſe / which are heere altogither true / then to howe little purpoſe they ſerue you / and laſt of all howe they make againſt you.