Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 39 – Section 40
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
Of this I may iuſtly make ane argument againſt Maiſter Iohn, that the Pope is not the Antichriſt. The Woman that fled to the wilderneſſe is the true Kirk, and to flee to the wilderneſſe is to be inuiſible, as Maiſter Iohn ſayes. Now young Marchiſtoun hes that this inuiſibilitie indured from the yeare of God 316. til our dayes, the ſpace of 1260. yeares, whilk was by him all the time of the Antichriſt. But by Maiſter Iohn Welſche, there was manie in that time that opponed themſelues to the Pope, and ſaid againſt him and his Religion and Cleargie: and therefore was knowne. Of the whilkes the Popes gart ſlay manie, And as the …eth i…as he ſayes: Therefore it muſt followe, that either the Pope is not the Antichriſt, becauſe hee did perſecute but viſible things, or elſe the Kirk was not inuiſible all the time foreſaide.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Let vsus ſee the force of this argument that ye make for your Pope, that he is not the Antichriſt. The woman, ye ſay, that fled to the wilderneſſe, is the true Kirk: that I graunt: & to fly into the wilderneſſe is to be inuiſible by me. I anſwere: By me it is to be latent, and to lurke, to eſchew the rage of her perſecuters, and not to be openlie conuerſant, as that all the worlde may knowe her: and yet not to be ſo latent, but that ſome of them are knowne both amongſt themſelues, as alſo to their enemies. And this is our meaning (as I hauehave ſaid before) vvhen vve affirme that the particular Kirks ſometimes becomes inviſible. But you take it as though our meaning were that ye kirk is ſo inuiſible, that it is known to none whilk is your inuention, Maiſter Gilbert, and not our doctrine: and therefore you fight without an aduerſarie in this point. But to goe forward to the reſt of your argument: you ſay, that by me there was ſundrie that oppugned the Pope, and his Cleargie, and was put to death by them, This is true: and therefore the blood of the Saints is found in your Kirk. Now what will you gather of all this? Therefore ſay you the Pope is not the Antichriſt, becauſe he perſecuts but viſible things, or elſe, the Kirk is not inuiſible. I deny that either the one or the other will follow. And becauſe you made an argument againſt your Pope (I ſhould hauehave ſaid with him) that he is not the Antichriſt, whilk is grounded vponupon your owne inuention, miſtaking our doctrine, and therefore hes no feete: I will make another for him that he is the Antichriſt, the whilk you nor all your Cleargie will not be able to diſproue. He is that vndoubted Antichriſt, whilk hes redacted the kirk of Chriſt, as it were in a wilderneſſe, to a ſmal handfull: partly through the peſt of his damnable doctrine, partly throgh his extreame perſecution, ſo that they were compelled to lurke and hyde themſelues from the crueltie of his power. This you cannot deny, becauſe the Scripture affirmes this of the Antichriſt. But I aſſume, that the Popes of Rome hes done this theſe many hundreth yeares, as I hauehave proued before, and in the other part of my anſwere: therfore of neceſſitie it muſt followe, that the Popes of Rome are the Antichriſt that the Scripture foretold ſhould come. Anſwere this if you can.
And as for the time of this inuiſibilitie, it hes relation to the beginning, and grouth, and hight of your Antichriſtian kingdome: for as it grewe the Kirk was more and more obſcured: and when it was at the hight, the Kirk was in her Eclipſe: and as it hes decaied now ſince, ſhe hes accordinglie ſpred her ſelf abroade. If the Apoſtle be true that myſterie of iniquitie began to worke in his dayes: 2. Theſ. 2.7 1. Ioh 4.3.for firſt the manifold hereſies whilk were ſowne in the primitiue Kirk, whereof the Popes of Rome hes renewed a great manie: as ſhalbe prooued heirafter, was the firſt ſtep to that Antichriſtian kingdome. …. of Ioh. ver. 9Next, the louing of preheminence in the Miniſtry, ouer their brethren, as the ſcripture teſtifies of Diotrephes, who loued preheminence, 3. of Iohn, verſ. 9. and ſpecially the aſpiring of the Biſhops of Rome to a domination and lordſhip ouer their brethren forbidden by Chriſt, whilk was manifeſtly kythed in Pope Victor, who did take vppon him to excommunicate the Biſhops of Aſia, for a light diſſention of the celebration of Eaſter, Anno 198. And in others, as Cornelius, Zoſimus, Bonifacius, and Celestine Popes, who did receiue to their Communion thoſe who were excommunicate in Africa, was the ſecond ſtep. Thirdly, if it be true that theſe impious and ſuperſtitious decreits whilk your Kirk aſcriues to the Popes of Rome before Conſtantine, be theirs: as is not lykelie that ſik ſuperſtitions did creip into the Kirk of Chriſt it being vnderunder perſecution: then, I ſay, the Popes of Rome euen before Sylueſter by their ſuperſtitious decreits, made a further entry to that Antichriſtian kingdome. And becauſe the Romane a)2. Theſ. 2.7. foreignEmpire, was the let that hindered Antichriſt to ſtep vp to his throne: and the b)Reuelat. 18cietie of Rome behoued to be his ſeat: therefore Conſtantine the great leauing the cietie of Rome to Sylueſter the Biſhop of Rome, made yet the way more eaſie: till at the laſt, they firſt got the primacy of honour, next of authority and iuriſdiction ouer their brethren: and then laſt of all did ſubdue the necks of Kings and Emperours vntounto them. The whilk they did not attaine vntounto at the firſt, but peece and peece: and that not without long and great reſiſtance, both of the Kirk, (as I hauehave proued before) condemning his Monarchie in all ages; and of the Emperours, as we ſhall ſee heirafter. And as they euer grew in their ſuperiority, ſo did the purity of the Kirk of Chriſt decay: and as a peſt infects not a kingdome all at once, but peece and peece: ſo did your Antichriſtian hereſie: it infected not all at once, but peece and peece, till at the laſte it went ouer all. While as then Marchiſtoun makes the beginning of his raigne to be in the 316. yeare of God, and the Kirk from thence to become inuiſible: his meaning is, that then that let whilk the Apoſtle ſpeakes of, was begun to be remoued, that his ſeat & throne might be in Rome: and from thence as they grew in height, ſo was the Kirk ay more and more continually obſcured, till at the laſt the Lorde did ſcatter that darkeneſſe by the light of his Goſpell whilk came to paſſe in our dayes.
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
The Kirk that is ſet downe to vsus in the word of God, Num. 20.4. …. Reg. 8.14. Matth 16.18. Matth. 18.17. Act. 15.3.4. Act. 18.22. Act. 22, 28, 1, Tim. 3, 15can no way be inuiſible: for when the holy write ſpeakes of the Kirk of Chriſt, it ſpeakes of an viſible nomber of men and wemen: and no wayes of Angels or ſpirites, as may be ſeene in theſe examples on the margent.
Maister Iohn Welſche his Reply.
I come now to your arguments. Firſt you ſay that the kirk that is ſet downe to vsus in the word of God can no wayes be inviſible, becaus ſay ye, when it ſpeakes of the Kirk, it ſpeaks of a viſible nomber of men and wemen, and no waies of Angels or ſpirits: I anſwere, this is moſt falſe: for the Scripture ſets downe to vsus that Kirk whilk is the a)Eph. 1.22.23 &body of Chriſt, and whereof he is the b)5.23head and Sauiour, and whilk is c)Col. 1.18builded on the rock, whilk is called the d)Heb. 12.23congregation of the firſte borne, whoſe names are written in heauen, and that e)Gal, 4, 26 Matth, 16, 18Ieruſalem whilk is the mother of vsus al. And this is the Catholick Kirk whilk comprehends al the elect, aſwell triumphant as militant, whilk is inuiſible for the reſpects before ſaid, as I hauehave prooued. And ſuppoſe the elect that are heir militant may be ſeene as they are men, and oft times alſo in reſpect of their outwarde profeſsion: yet it follows not but yt they are inviſible in ſo far as they are a part of the Catholick Kirk. And alſo that ſometimes through the extremity of perſecution, they may be latent and lurke, ſo that they are not openly viſible & known to all, as I hauehave ſaide before. As for theſe places of Scripture, to wit, Num. 20.4. 3. Reg. 8.14. Act. 15.3.4. & 20.28. & 18.22. & 1. Tim. 3.15. they ſpeake all of particular Kirks, whilk we graunt vntounto you are viſible, ſuppoſe not ay alike, as hes bene proued. As for the 16. of Matthew, it ſpeakes of the kirk of the choſen, for they only are builded vponupon this rock, and againſt whome the gates of Hell preuailes not: and they are inuiſible in reſpect before ſaide, as hes bene proued. As for the 18. of Matthew, it is quoted afterward: therefore I referre the anſwere of it vntounto that place.