Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 41
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
Pſal. 18 6. Read S, Aug on th…s Math 5.15 Eſa. 61.9. Dan. 2.35. Miche. 4 1.2. Read S. Hieron on theſe places. Aug. 1. Tract. in Ep…ſt. Io, Item de Bapt. lib. 4. c. 1 Matth. 18.17, Cyprian de ſimpli. prelat. Ier. 1. Epiſt. ad Damaſ. Aug lib. 19. contra Fauſt cap. 11. Origen. homil. 30. in Matth Cyp. lib. de vnitat. Eccleſ. Chryſoſt hom. 4. in cap 6 Eſ…. Aug lib. 3. contra Ep…ſt Parment. c. 3. Item. tract 1. in Epiſt. …o… tract 2. Item. Epiſt. 166. ad …o…at…as.The Scripture alſo in many places compares the Kirk to viſible thinges that cannot be vn ſeene. As, He hes placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne, A cietie cannot be hid ſet on a mountaine. It is alſo compared to a light ſet on a Candle-ſtick to lighten the whole houſe, and not to be put vnderunder a bed, or a buſhell; with many the like whilk I hauehave omitted for breuities cauſe, ſauing ſome noted on the margent. Moreouer our Sauiour commands vsus to complaine to the Kirk if our brother offend vsus: and alſo, we ought to ioyne our ſelues to the true Kirk, or els we cannot hauehave remiſſion of our ſinnes. But how can a man complaine to it, if it cannot be ſene? or ioyne himſelf to it, if it be inuiſible? The Kirk of Chriſt may neuer want the true preaching of the word and right adminiſtration of the Sacraments: but theſe things are alwaies viſible, becauſe by the Miniſters they are the ſignes and markes of the Kirk: therefore the true Kirk may be alwayes knowne by them. To be ſhort, not only the word of God affirmes the Kirk to be alwaies viſible, as I hauehave noted before: but alſo the auncient Fathers in all their works, as partly I hauehave marked alſo.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
As for the 18. Pſalme, it ſpeakes not of the viſibilitie of the Kirk there: but of the Lords wonderfull and glorious works & eſpecially, in diſponing ſik a glorious place or Tabernacle, or throne, to the Sunne to ſhine in, the whilk demonſtrates the glory of the Lord. As for Auguſtines expoſition, it reſults of the corrupted olde tranſlation, whilk was not taken from the Hebrew fountaine, but from the verſion of the ſeptuagints: therefore Pagninus, Vatablus, and Arias Montanus a Papiſt, and Tremellius expones it not ſo, but after the Hebrew. Secondly, he meanes not heir of the Catholick Kirk, but of particular Kirks, whilk were exceeding far enlarged in his dayes: but yet this hinders not but that they ſhould be obſcured in the time of the Antichriſt, as it was foretolde, & your Kirk acknowledges. As for the 5. of Matthew, 15.16. there, not the Catholick Kirk, but the Paſtors of particular Kirks are compared to this light, whilk is ſet vp in the Candle-ſticke, and to the cietie ſet vp vponupon the hill top, whilk cannot be hid, that is the eies of all is on them: and therfore they ſhould be ſo much the more walk-rife and carefull, becauſe their doings cannot be hid. As for Eſa. 2.3. and Eſa. 60 20. and Eſa. 61.9. and Dan. 2.35. and Mich. 4.12. they prophecie of the greatneſſe and clearneſſe of the Kirk of Chriſt in the time of the M…ſſias, and of the propagation of the Goſpel throughout the world, and of the ſtabilitie and perpetuitie of Chriſts kingdome. But yet it followes not but both the Catholick Kirk is inuiſible, as I ſaid before, and that the viſible Kirks may be obſcured and darkened, as it was foretolde in the time of the Antichriſt. As for the the 18. of Mathew, Goe tell the Kirk, &c. The Kirk is heir taken for the Paſtors and gouernours of particular Kirks, whilk we grant are viſible: but yet it followes not, but that both they and the profeſſors may be obſcured & darkened, either through hereſie, or through extreame perſecution, or through both together, as it was foretolde in the time of the Antichriſt, and hes bene fulfilled by your Kirk. As for the true Kirk vntounto whome we ſhould ioyne our ſelues. I anſwere. We can hauehave no ſaluation vnleſſe we ioyne our ſelues firſt to the Catholick Kirk, that is, vntounto Ieſus and his members by a ſpirituall communion, out with the whilk there is no ſaluation. Next, vntounto ſome particular viſible Kirk, by the outward communion of the word and Sacraments, &c. if we knowe it, and poſsiblie can ioyne our ſelues vntounto it: for if either we knowe it not, or may not, as theſe 7000. that bowed not their knee to Baal, then I ſay, ſaluation is not perilled. As for your laſt reaſon, the true Kirk may neuer want the true preaching of the worde, and right adminiſtration of the ſacraments, I anſwere, firſt, there is not the like neceſsity of the Sacraments as there is of the worde: next, ſuppoſe they hauehave it, & thereby are knowne amongſt themſelues, and ſome of them alſo to their aduerſaries: yet it followes not that they are ſo opē ly viſible, that they are patent and knowne to al. As for example: there is no queſtiō but theſe 7000. a)1. Reg. 19 18that did not bowe their knee to Baal, and theſe b)1. Reg. 18.13100. Prophets who was hid in the caues, and c)Act. 8.1the Apoſtles when all were ſcattered through that perſecution, as Luke teſtifies, had the exerciſe of the worde amongſt them. And it is not likely that the Apoſtles wanted ſome to teach, ſuppoſe they were not knowne to all: no not to their perſecuters: otherwiſe they would hauehave beene perſecuted. And ſiklike we doubt not, but in the time of Queene Maries perſecution in England, and in other partes vnderunder that Antichriſtian tyranny but the Lord had his own both Paſtor & people, amongſt whome the trueth was preached, ſuppoſe neither we, nor their aduerſaries knewe them all: for it is oft times for the ſafetie of the Kirk to lurke, and to be hid, that ſhe may eſcape the furie and rage of her enemies. As for Auguſtine, Cyprian, Origen, Ch…yſoſtome, and Ierome whilk ye quote heir, they ſpeake either of the perpetuitye & eternitie of the Catholick Kirk, or elſe of the largeneſſe and cleareneſſe of the particular Kirks whilk were in thoſe daies whilk is neither againſt the inuiſibility of the Catholick kirk nor yet againſt the obſcure eſtate and ſmall handfull of the Kirk of Chriſt, whereunto ſhee ſhoulde be brought in the dayes of the Antichriſt, as was fore-tolde by the Scripture, and fulfilled in your Papiſticall kingdome. For we graunt that in their dayes the Kirks of Chriſt was frequent & glorious, but yet they did not ay remaine in that eſtate. For the Kirks of the Eaſt are almoſt ouerthrowne by the Mahomet, and the Kirks of the Weſt by the Antichriſt. So that partly by the one, and partly by the other, the Kirk of Chriſt hes beene redacted to a ſmall handfull, as hes bene ſaid.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche.
Laſt of all I will ſet you downe the names of theſe worthy men, that in the midſt of Poperie ſpake againſt their errors, and preached the ſame Religion that we preache. M. John hes not the right diet of theſe his holy fathers. Anſwe…e. If it was ſo as you write it, it was error in ſcribendo: and that whilk I write afterward might, hauehave taught you this, when I ſaid this was 400. yeares paſt.I will but onelie name a fewe of them that was in the midſt of Popery, when it was come to the hight, anno 1158. Gerardus & Dalcimus Nauarrenſis did preach earneſtly againſt the kirk of Rome, and called the Pope the Antichriſt: and taught alſo that the Cleargy of Rome was become the whoore of Babylon, fore ſpoken in the Reuelation: this was 400. yeares paſt. In the yeare of our Lord 1160 one b)This Waldus & his ſect had wiues and all other things common and ſo muſt M. Iohn and he follow him. Anſwer This is falſlie alledged of him & his followers: but either your canon law erres Cauſa 12. q. 1. Dilect ſſimis, or els Pope Cl…mens was of this mind and ſo if you be of his Religion, you muſt be ſo; for albeit ye hauehave no wiues; yet other mens wiues hes bene made common to your Popes and your Clea…ie in horrible adulteries.Waldus a Citizen in Lions in France, with a great nomber taught that ſame doctrine whilk we teach nowe, condemned the Maſſe to be wicked the Pope to be the Antichriſt, and Rome to be Babylon. They were perſecuted by the Pope, & remained long in Bohemia. In he yeare 1112, the Pope cauſed an hundred perſons in the countrie of Alſatia, whereof many were noble men, to be burnt in one day, for the maintayning of that ſame doctrine that we now maintaine againſt the Kirk of Rome. About the yeare of our Lord 1230. almoſte all the Kirks of the Grecians whilk with the reſt of the Kirks of Aſia and Africk, who doth not acknowledge the ſupremacie of your Pope, are moe then the Kirks of Europe, who ſubmits themſelues to him, did all renounce the Pope, and the Romiſh Kirk, becauſe of their execrable ſimonie and Idolatrie, in the yeare 1240. In the countrie of Sueuia there were many preachers that taught freelie againſt the Pope, and affirmed he and his Cleargy were hereticks and Simoniacks, in the yeare 1250. or thereabout Arnoldus de noua villa a learned Spaniard taught freely againſt the Kirk of Rome, and amongſt the reſt that the Pope led the people to Hell, for the whilk cauſe the Pope condemned him as an heretick, about the ſame time. Gulielmus de Sancto Amore, Maiſter & chief ruler of that Vniuerſitie, taught that all the teſtimonies of the Scripture, ſpoken of the Antichriſt, ſhould be applied to the Pope and his Cleargie, and ſo taught them to be the Antichriſt, and the whore of Babel, anno 1290. Laurence an Engliſhman and Maiſter of the Vniuerſi…ie in Paris, proued mightily that the Pope was the Antichriſt, and his Cleargie the ſynagogue of Babylon. About the ſame time Robertus Gallus a man of noble parentage, taught the Pope was an Idole, and ſaid the iudgement of God would fal vponupon him, and his Cleargie. Becauſe I hauehave no time to write the doctrine of the reſt that ſpake againſt the Pope. I wil but note their perſons, Robert Groſshed Iohn Geyll…s, ane preaching Frier, anno 1253. Gregory Ariminenſis, Franciſcus de Rupe Sciſſa, Taulerus in Germanie, Gerhardus Rhidit, Michael de Ceſena, Petras de Carbona, and Iohannes do Poliaco. Iohannes Rithetalanda, anno 1360. Armachanus the archbiſhop in Ireland 1360 Nicholas Orem, Matthias Pariſienſis, Nilus archbiſhop of Theſſalonica, Iohn Wiclef, and the Lord Cobham, and ſundry others.