Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 38
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
That the Kirk at any time may be inuiſible, it is repugnant to the worde of God in manie places, and to Maiſter Iohn alſo. For he giues examples afterward of ſundry, as he ſayes, that was of his religion, and opponed them ſelues to the Pope and his Cleargie: and that, ſayes he, when he was come to the hight. If the true Kirk opponed the ſelfe to the Antichriſtian Kirk, then it was viſible and knowne, and if it was knowne when the Popes kingdome was at the higheſt, much more when it was lowe. & ſo it was alwaies known by Maiſter Iohns ſelfe.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Whether oppugne ye your owne imagination (Maiſter Gilbert) heir, or that whilk I write. If the firſt, then you are fooliſh who fights againſt your ſelf, as ye doe indeede: if the ſecond, then I ſay, that whilk I ſaide was this: that no man ſhould thinke that the Kirk of God was euer open and viſible in that flouriſhing eſtate as it is nowe. For this is our doctrine, Maiſter Gilbert, concerning the inviſibility of the kirk the whilk becauſe you know not, therefore you ſtumble at it and oppugnes only your owne inuention, and not our doctrine: and therefore your reaſons and Scriptures whilk ye bring heir, ſerues to no purpoſe, for they make nothing againſt vsus. We ſay that the Catholick Kirk whilk comprehends al the elect is alwaies inuiſible, Epheſ. 5.25 26.27.32. Pſal. 45.13. Ioh. 10 27. 2. Tim. 2 19. Luc 11.28. Math. 7.both becauſe the principall part thereof is in heauen: and alſo becauſe the ſenſes of men cannot diſcerne vvho are true members of the Catholick Kirk heir, their effectuall calling, their faith, louelove, hope, and invvard graces: their vnion vvith Chriſt their heade, their ſpirituall armour, vveapons, and vvarfare, Epheſ 6, 12. 2. Cor. 12.34.and their head Chriſt Ieſus, and their vvhole glorie is invvard and inuiſible, and they ſhall neuer be ſeene all gathered together vntill that great day: So that ſuppoſe they may be ſene outvvardlie, as they are men, and ſometimes in reſpect of their outvvarde miniſterie: yet in ſo far as they are a part of the Catholick Kirk: that is, in ſo far as they are choſen, and ſanctified, &c. as hes bene ſaid, they cannot be diſcerned by the ſenſes of men and ſo are inviſible. Next vve ſay that the particular viſible Kirks are not alvvaies in one outward eſtate: ſometimes outvvardly glorious, ſometimes more obſcure: ſometimes openlye knovvne and ſeene by all: ſometimes knovvne and ſeene but by a fevv: ſometimes frequent, and conſiſting in manie, ſometimes rare and conſiſting in fevve: ſometimes adorned vvith outvvarde ornaments of peace, largeneſſe, outvvard glorie & multitude: ſometimes againe wanting this outvvard glory vnderperſecution. But yet hauing that invvard glorie of theſe invvard graces. So that when we ſay theſe particular Kirks are ſometimes inuiſible, we doe not meane as though they were knowne to none (for that is not our doctrine, Maiſter Gilbert, as ye imagine:) but that they are not ſo openlie knowne that they are patent to all to be the true Kirk: but knowne vntounto them with whome they hauehave to do, and who profeſſes the trueth with them. Yea ſometimes, ſome of them are knowne vntounto the very perſecuters and enemies by their conſtancie and perſeuerance in their ſufferings, ſuppoſe they allow not their profeſsion. And in this ſtate was the Kirk of Iſraell in the time of Elias, 1. Reg. 19.10.when he complained that he knew none left but himſelf of the true worſhippers of God. (a)2. Chron. 2….24. 2. King. 16.10.And the Kirk of Iuda in the dayes of Achaz and Manaſſe Kings of Iudah. And ſiklike in the time of Chriſt, both in the time of his liuing amongſt them, as alſo in the time of his death & reſurrection, the Kirk was broght to a ſmall handfull: the Princes, Prieſts, and Scribes, who only was in dignitie and authoritie, being perſecuters of Chriſt, condemned him, and crucified him. And ſiklike in the time of the perſecution of Diocletian the Emperour, and in the time of the Arrian hereſie whilk ouer-ſpred, as it were, the whole world. The whilk alſo our Sauiour foretold ſhuld come to paſſe: Matth. 18.8. Matth 24, 11.12. 2. Theſ, 2, 1 Tim 4. Reuel. 9.1.2.3.4. & 12.6. & 13. verſ. 14 15.16.17 & 14. v. 8 & 17. v. 2. & 18. v. 3.When the ſonne of man (ſayes he) ſhall come, ſhall he finde faith in the world? And by the Apoſtle alſo. And Iohn in the Reuelation, in the time of the Antichriſt, confeſſed alſo by the learned of your own Kirk, as Bellarmine and the Rhemiſts, as they hauehave bene quoted before: and by your ſelf alſo who confeſſed that the Kirk of Chriſt ſhould be redacted to a ſmall number, as it were in a wilderneſſe in the time of the Antichriſt. This now is our doctrine concerning the inuiſibilitie of the Kirk, whilk is neither repugnant to the word of God, nor yet to the examples whilk I brought in afterwarde againſt your Religion. For both theſe, Maiſter Gilbert, are true, and neither of them repugning one another: that the particular Kirks in the time of the Antichriſt, are not ſo openlie knowne, and ſo outwardlie glorious and flouriſhing, as they were before: but redacted to a ſmall number, more obſcure and more latent: partly through that vniuerſall defection, and partly through that extreame perſecution of your Kirk and head: and that there was ſome that opponed themſelues to the Pope and his Cleargie, and that euen whē he was come to the height. If you will make theſe repugnāt which are not aduerſa, but only diuerſa ſecundum magis & minus, then I ſay ye are repugnant to all rules of reaſoning, and to the light of nature it ſelfe.