Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 42
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
Maiſter Iohn hes ſet downe heir a nomber of a)It is falſeobſcure and infamous perſons, for the moſte parte b)And this alſoiuſtlye condemned for hereſies, without their workes or bookes whereby they affirme this that he alledge…: and all c)This is alſo falſe for Gerard and Dulcimus Nauarenſis whilk I firſt cited was almoſt 400. yeare before M. Luther and Caluine, & the Waldenſ…s was more nor 30… yeare before them.two hundreth yeare before Caluine began their Religion, or therabout. Of the whilk I contend not, whether they ſpake againſt the Pope, or not. For all hereticks from the beginning hes barked againſt the Pope: but our contention is, whether ſik heades of Religion, as they denied, were hereſies, or not? whilk as yet Maiſter Iohn hes not d)But theſe heads is prouen that the Pope is the Antichriſt & Rome Babell they are not hereticks, & therefore our religion was before Marrine Luther.proued, nor is not able to defend theſe, whome hee calles, his worthie men: for appearandly by this all hereticks are worthie men by him, albeit they be not of his Religion in al things.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
You calumniat our Religion of noueltie, and ſayes Martine Luther began it anno 1517. VntoUnto the whilk I anſwered, that our Religion hes Chriſt Ieſus in the olde and newe Teſtament to be the authour thereof, and hes the primitiue Kirk many hundreth yeares there-after, to be the teachers and profeſſors thereof, the whilk I hauehave proued already by ſome examples, and that euen till the ſmoake of that Antichriſtian darkeneſſe of yours did ouerſpread al, as it was foretolde by the holy Ghoſt. At the whilk time alſo the Lord did reſerue his owne elect to himſelf, euen theſe hundreth fourty and foure thouſand, whilk did not bowe their knees to your Baal, as it was fore-prophecied: whereof alſo a great manie is recorded in hiſtories, and of whome I ſet downe ſome examples heir. VponUpon the whilk I reaſon: That Religion whilk is warranted by the Scriptures, and profeſſed in the primitiue Kirk, &c. and hes ſundrie that taught and profeſſed it, and that euen in the middeſt of Poperie, when it was at the hight thereof; is not a new Religion, nor inuented by Martine Luther: but ours is ſik, as hes bene prooued: therefore vnrighteous and blaſphemous muſt ye be, who ſlaunders the Lords trueth & Religion of novelty, and fathers it vponupon fleſh and blood, whereof he is the authour. Your anſwere to the firſt two, we hauehave examined: now let vsus ſee your anſwere to this: firſt you ſay they are obſcure men, I anſwere: If you call them obſcure becauſe they wanted the outward glorie, welth, and renown of this world: then, ſuppoſe it were ſo, yet hauehave they Ieſus a)Mat. 13.54.55.56.Chriſt the Prince of life, who was called a Carpenters ſonne: and his Prophets, of whome ſome were b)Amos. 1 1.heard mē and his c)M…t 4.18.21.Apoſtles who were fiſher-men: and his Kirk who conſiſts not of d)Cor. 1.… … 28.many wiſe, mighty, or noble, but of the fooliſh, weake and vyle of the world. For them God hes choſen to confound the wiſe & noble, to be companions with them, and ſo they are the liker both the head and the members. It is true indeede your Popes and Cleargie are not obſcure: for they hauehave the wealth and glorie of the world. But as Bernard ſaide to the Pope, In this they ſucceede not to Chriſt or Peter, but to Conſtantine. But they receaue their good things in this life with the riche glutton, and therfore they muſt receaue their paine with him in the life to come. But why doe you call theſe obſcure whome I named heir? are not ſome of them Friers, ſome of them Prouincials of gray …riers, ſome of them Maiſters and rulers of Vniuerſities: ſome of them excellently learned, whilk your owne Kirk cannot deny: ſome of them Biſhops, and Arch-biſhops: ſome of them noble men: And ſome of them, as namely the Greeke and Eaſtern Kirks, in nomber, learning purity of doctrine, and godlineſſe, farre exceeding your Papiſticall Kirk. Who is worthie or famous, if theſe be obſcure? are all men obſcure and infamous to you but your Popes, and thoſe who ſubmits their necks to him? And if you think theſe too obſcure men, to be called worthy men, then behold yet Maiſter Gilbert, more noble perſonages who hes reſiſted your Popes Monarchie. As K. Philip le bel of France, the Prelates of France ioyning vvith him in his dominions, about the yeare of God 1300. And Edward the third, King of England deſpiſed the Popes curſe, & appealed from him to God, about the yeare of God 1346. And alſo ſundry Emperours, as Conſtantine the fifth, Leo his ſonne, and Conſtantine the ſext in the Eaſt, and Henrie the 4. and Henrie the 5. and Frederick the ſeconde in the Weſt. Will you call theſe Kings and Princes of the whole vvorlde, obſcure men? So all ſorts of men, Maiſter Gilbert, both rich and poore, Princes and ſubiects, and theſe alſo vvithin your ovvne bovvels being ouercome vvith the ſtrength of the trueth of God, hes ſpoken againſt your Religion. Why you call them infamous and hereticks, iuſtly condemned I knovv not, except it be becauſe they taught and profeſſed the trueth of God, & condemned your Antichriſtian idolatrie and abhominations. But all are not infamous and hereticks vvhome ye call ſo: and ſurelie if murtherers, heretickes, adulterers, Sodomites, open bargainers vvith the Diuell, and the vile monſters of the earth, is to be called obſcure, infamous, and heretickes: then your Popes are to be called ſo, who of all men that euer the earth hes born, hes bene the vileſt monſters & hereticks, as I hauehave proued in my other treatiſe, concerning the Maſſe and the Antichriſt.
You ſay next that you cōtend not whether ye hauehave ſpoken againſt the Pope or not, for al heretickes hes euer barked againſt him, and that ſore againſt your hart, (Maiſter Gilbert) becauſe you cannot deny but yee hauehave taught this doctrine with vsus: and if it bee ſo (Maiſter Gilbert) that theſe men and Kirks and many thouſand more of all ſortes hes taught this doctrine with vsus manye hundreth yeares before Martine Luther, for the firſt two whilk I named was almoſte 400. yeare before him: then why were you ſo ſhameles both to write it & alſo ſpeake it, to blinde your poore countriemen to their and yours damnation that our religion was begun by Martine Luther, & neuer profeſſed before him. So leaue off (Maiſter Gilbert) to beguile the ſimple and ignorant people with this ſottiſh and blaſphemous reaſon of yours, (Martine Luther is the author of our religion) for nowe you are inforced to graunt the contrarie that infinite nombers hes taught the ſame doctrine before him. The truth is too ſtrong for you (Maiſter Gilbert) that compels you to graunt the thing that ye woulde wiſh with all your hart the people neuer knew it: but comfort your ſelfe (Maiſter Gilbert) for the trueth will be victorious at the laſt, and your darknes daily more and more will be diſcouered. Indeede the leaſt ſtroke that ye can giuegive for the defence of your Pope is to call them all heretickes who hes ſpoken againſt him, for I graunt the Pope and his Clergie is not ſik fooles, as being their owne Iudges to condemne them ſelues, and to iuſtifie them, who not onelyonly hes taught it, but alſo ſufficiently did prooue it, and many thouſands ſealed with their blood that he was the Antichriſt, & his Kirk Babell. But with them, they hauehave the ſonne of God, & the Apoſtles, Paule and Iohn heretickes: for they alſo did condemne his Idolatry, and tyrannie, and errors. But where about now will ye contend (Maiſter Gilbert?) ye ſay whether their doctrine be hereſie or not? I would you and your Kirk would ſtand vponupon this, and giuegive ouer all your other contentions whill this were firſt prooued, whether their doctrine in ſo far as they aggree with ours: & ours, in ſo far as it diſſents from yours, be hereſie or not, that is, be againſt the ſcripture or not, the whilk if you would doe, then I hope our contentions would ſoone be ended. But for as faſt as you runne to this now, you will flee from it as faſt againe, when we deſire to hauehave yours & our doctrine, tried by the Scriptures whilk of them is hereſie: and conſequently, whether ye or we be heretickes? And therefore you euer refuſe to let your doctrine be tried by the ſcripture, but runnes to your pretēded antiquitie, and ſucceſſions, Councels, and lying miracles, & many other vaine ſtarting holes, like a vvilde Fox, when he is hunted out of one hole he flies to another, and dare neuer abyde the faire fields. And marke their craft, reader, vvhen vve affirme that our religion hes Ieſus Chriſt to bee the author of it in the Scriptures, as vve offer to proue the ſame, yee refuſe this triall by the Scriptures, and ſayes that Martine Luther inuented our religion, and vve had none that profeſſed it, and taught it before him. When vve againe reply that vvee had ſundry of all ſortes manie hundred yeares before him, euen vvhen your Kingdome vvas at the hight, and produces their names, they not beeing able to deny it, they ſlyp from that againe, and ſaies they contend not whether there was ſik that taught ſik doctrine or not: but they cōtend whether that was trueth or hereſie: ſo they run from one ſtarting hole to another. But I will ask you (Maiſter Gilbert) if it be proued that this their doctrine was not hereſie, wil you contend any more then, ſhal the pley ceaſe then? will you euer ſlander our religion of noueltie in ſaying Martine Luther was the firſt that began it, and vvee had none who profeſſed before him: but you will ſay, this you hauehave not proued? It is true I had not proued it then; but now I hope I hauehave proued it ſufficiently that your Popes are the Antichriſt, & your Rome Babell, whilk was one of the principal heads of the doctrine whilk yee taught, and ſundrie others alſo. Diſproue you it if you can (Maiſter Gilbert.)