Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 43
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
But, he ſayes, they preached the ſame Religion that he preaches, &c. Let Maiſter Iohn name any of theſe his Doctors, that he will abyde at in Religion, and I ſhall let him ſee, that he was not of his Religion in all things. For that is the thing that we ſay, that albeit Maiſter Iohn and his brethren hauehave renewed many olde condemned hereſies of heretickes: yet they were not of their religion in all things. And therefore this that Maiſter Iohn calles the only trueth, was neuer profeſſed in all heades, as it is now in Scotland, before in no countrie, no not by any one man, let be by a nomber, whilke thing Maiſter Robert Bruſe graunts himſelf in his ſermons, in theſe words: And God hes choſen a few hearts in this countrie, where he hes begun his dwelling place, for God dwelles now in the harts and conſciences of his own by his holy Spirit. And ſurely ſo hes he dwelt with vsus theſe thirty yeares, in ſik puritie, that he hes not done the like with no nation in the earth, he hes not remained with any nation without error and hereſie ſo long, as he hes done with vsus, &c. So God dwelt in no place without error and hereſie the ſpace of 10, yeare whill now in Scotland.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
But you ſay, they diſſent from vsus in ſome things, and is not of our Religion in all things. Wherunto I anſwere: that ſuppoſe this were true, yet it wil not follow but that they are of our religion, ſeeing they and we doe aggree in the maine foundations thereof. For we hauehave learned to call them brethren, whilk do holde the foundation, as the Apoſtle ſayes, ſuppoſe they hauehave builded haye, 2. Cor. 3.ſtrawe, or timber vponupon the ſame. Otherwiſe, if ye will be content to be meaſured with that ſame meaſure wherewith ye meaſure vsus, if you will hauehave none to be accounted of your religion, but theſe onlie that profeſſes with you in all things, as your Kirk does now: then not only (by your reaſon) ſhall ye want the Lord Ieſus, his Apoſtles, the primitiue Kirk, as ye doe indeede: and that not onlye in the firſt 600. yeare, but long after, till the thouſand yeere: & long after that alſo, to be of your profeſsion: becauſe not only the waightieſt points of your doctrine hes not their originall in the Scripture, and are vnwritten Traditions, by the teſtimonie of ſome of your ſelues: but alſo ſundry points of your religion hes bene brought in after theſe dayes, beeing vnknowne in the former ages, as your ſelues will not deny, and I hauehave proued in ſome heads, in the other part concerning the Maſſe. Yea, you ſhall want all the Fathers by this reaſon of yours. For there is not one of them but they hauehave their owne errors, whilk ye your ſelues will not defend: and the moſt part of thē are with vsus againſt you, in many things, whilk you cannot deny: and that whilk is more, ye ſhal want almoſte, all the generall Councels, except three or foure, & many of your owne Popes, Doctors Biſhops, Cardinals, and Ieſuites: for not onlie hes ſome of them had errors, and ſome of them bene heretickes by your whole confeſsions: but alſo ſome of them hauehave bene with vsus in ſome points againſt you, as I hauehave proued before, ſo that I need not repeat thē now. As for example, lib. 19. c. 16. … morali.Pope Gregorie affirmes that the bookes of the Machabees are Apocrypha: and ſo hes ſundry others of your Cleargie, as b)in lib operis biblioth.Sixtus Senenſis, c)in fine coment veter. teſt.Caietanus, d)in editione, quadam hebr. bibli. Cum interlineari in terr. Gelaſius de duabus naturis in Chriſto.Arias Montanus, Nugo Cardinalis, againſt you and with vsus in the bookes of Apocrypha. Gelaſius is againſt your Tranſubſtantiation, alſo againſt your Communion vnderunder one kinde: and Pope Adrian the 6. againſt this, that the Pope cannot erre and teach hereſies. Panormitane againſt this, that it is not lawfull to Miniſters to marrie after their ordination. Bellarm. lib. 1. de Clericis, c. 19. a)Bellarm. lib. 2. de purg. cap 4.Michael Bai, Gerſon, & Roffenſis all Papiſts, againſt your veniall ſinnes. b)Bellarm. lib. de imaginibus. c. 8.Abulenſis and Durandus & Pereſius Papiſts, againſt your making of the Images of the Trinitie. A great many of you, as Alexander, Thomas, Caietan, Bonauenture, Marſilius, Almayn, Carthuſianus, and Capreolus teaches, that that ſame worſhip ſhould be giuen to the image, whilk is giuen to that whilk the image repreſents: and yet Durandus, and Alphonſus à Caſtro, & others is againſt this: therefore either the one or the other is not of your religion. And ye your ſelf if ye be meaſured by this meaſure, is not a right Papiſt, becauſe you diſſent from many of them in many things as hes beene prooued before. And certainlie, Maiſter Gilbert, if this reaſon of yours holde forth, you ſhall cut off from your profeſsion ſik a nomber of Popes, Councels, Ieſuites, Cardinals, & Doctors frō your religiō, that it is to be feared, that they cut you off from being a right defender of their Catholick faith, yea from beeing a member of their ſynagogue, that for the defence thereof is compelled to cut off ſo many from the ſame. And ſecondly, I ſay, your reports concerning their doctrine, is not to be credited, but their owne apologies and writings, whereby it appeares that it hes bene alwaies your faſhion, the more to diſcredite them, to charge them with a number of abſurde opinions, whilk they neuer held. As for example, you charge heir Waldus and his followers to hauehave had their wiues, and al other things common, whilk is your calumnie of them, and not their practiſe, or doctrine. For Gulielmus Parvus wrytes that their life was commendable, & Reinerus in his booke of inquiſitions, one of your owne religion, a writer of 300. yeares agoe, who was often at the examination of them, as he himſelf ſaies, confeſſes that they had great ſhew of holy lyfe, and that they beleeued all things well of God, and all the articles contained in the Creed, and liued iuſtly before men: and charges them that they hated and blaſphemed ſolam Romanam Eccleſiam, the Romiſh Kirk only. So then, if his report be true, as I hope ye will not gainſay, they were both far from that error, for that were neither to beleeue all things well of God, nor yet to hauehave a ſhewe of holy life, and to liue iuſtly before men: and alſo they were of our religion in all things.
And where you ſay that we renew many old condemned hereſies: I anſwer, that neither the doctrine whilk I affirmed they taught heir was hereſies, nor yet themſelues hereticks. But you and your Kirk who hes condemned them for the trueth of God, and hes renewd olde condemned hereſies, as ſhall be proued afterward. And we hauehave renewd no hereſie at all, but onelyonly the trueth of God whilk your Kirk hes obſcured and buried. Therefore your concluſion is falſe, that our religion was neuer profeſſed in all points as it is now in Scotland before in no countrie, no not, ſay you, by anie one man. For it was taught & profeſſed by Chriſt and his Apoſtles, and alſo by all the primitiue Kirks in their daies, in all points, throughout all the partes of the world, where they preached the Goſpel, as it is now in Scotland, as we offer to proue by their writtings, and I hauehave proued the ſame in ſundrie heads heir. Next, the ſubſtance thereof was continued manie hundreth yeares in the Kirks of Chriſt, whill partlie by the hereſies that ſprang vp (for the popple was ſoone ſowne among the good ſeede, and the myſterie of iniquitie began to work in the Apoſtles daies) and partly by the Mahomet, & partly by the darknes of Poperie, it was corrupted peece & peece. And what difference can you finde betweene the religion that the Waldenſes profeſſed, and vsus; if ye will giuegive credite to their Apologies, and Reinerus teſtimonies of them? As for Maiſter Robert Bruſes teſtimonye whilk yee produce, it ſerues no waies to confirme your purpoſe: but ſeeing ye abuſe the teſtimonies of Scripture, it is no wonder ſuppoſe yee abuſe the teſtimonies of men. For it is moſt true whilk he affirmes that the trueth of God hes continued for that ſpace in this kingdome without hereſie or ſchiſme, as we neuer read it did in any nation in the earth, in ſik purity without hereſie and ſchiſme for ſik a long ſpace. And yet it followes not but he hes dwelt in ſundrie Kirks in ſik puritie before, ſuppoſe not ſo long together, whilk you omit in your concluſion. Doth it follow by his teſtimony, but that our religion hes bene preached & profeſſed in all true Kirks, in all points, ſuppoſe not ſo long in ſik purity, as it is in Scotland? neither doth it followe but that the ſubſtantiall and maine points of our religion hes beene profeſſed in all Chriſtian Kirks, longer nor that ſpace, ſuppoſe mixed either with ſom hereſies or ſchiſmes. So you muſt coine a new logick (Maiſter Gilbert) before ye can confirme your propoſition by his teſtimonie.