The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (2 of 3)

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (2 of 3)

Euſebius.

Doeſt thou thinke that I ſpeake without the Scripture? the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloſes and expoſitions: But for to giuegive more weight and credite vntounto my probations, I would thou ſhouldeſt beare the witneſſe of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors, namely, of the worſhipful Beda, ſpeaking after this manner. Hée which now cryeth Beda. Sant. 4. diſt. 1. S… vero. Iohn. …. a. ….terribly & healthfully by his Gopell: except a man be borne of water & the holy ſpirite, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God. The very ſame he cryed by his lawe: the ſoule of him whoſe foreſkinne of his fleſh is not circumcifed, Gene. 17. c. 14Gen 17ſhal periſh from his people: bicauſe he hath broken my teſtament. Beholde a cléere probation, as wel for the children of the Iewes, as for thoſe of the Chriſtians.

Theophilus.

How vnderſtandeſt thou that threatning againſt thoſe which were not circumciſed? For God hath prefired eight dayes, for to circumciſe the young children. Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day, and the terme preſcribed of God, doeſt thou thinke that the ſaluation of thoſe children be in daunger?

Euſebius.

The word of God excepteth neither little nor great, but ſpeaketh generally to all men.

Theophilus.

But there could hauehave bene no fault, but in the tranſgreſſiō of the cōmaundement of God. Sith then that God had determined for them y^e viij. day, wherefore ought the young children to periſh, which died before that terme? For ſith that God had lymitted the day. I doubte not but that thoſe who ſhould hauehave circumciſed them before the day prefired ſhould do contrary vntounto the cōmaundement of God.

Euſebius.

I accorde vntounto thée therein, in p. 228thoſe which ſhould hauehave done that without neceſſitie, and Sent. 4. diſt. 1. S… vero.without the daunger of the death of the young childe. But I beléeue, that when there ſhould hauehave bene any daunger they might circumeiſe them before that terme.

Theophilus.

And I beléeue the contrary. For I can proue my reaſon by the Scripture, the which thou canſt not doo thine. If it were ſo then as y^• ſayſt, it ſhould follow y^• god was not well aduiſed, when he made that ordinaunce, and that the Iſralites ſhoulde be wiſer by right: and that hée ſhould doe great wrong vntounto them, ſith that he hath not aduertiſed them of that doing, and that he gaue none exception. It followeth in lyke manner. if the circumciſion had bene ſo neceſſary vntounto ſaluation, that all the woemen children and woemen ſhould periſh, fith that they dyed all without circumciſion: the which yet neuertheleſſe no man dareth to affirme, ſith that there hath bene ſo many holy women, of whom the holy Scripture beareth vsus witnes.

Euſebius.

It is eaſie to reproue thy conſequence. For in the inſtitution of the circumciſion, it is ſpoken expreſſely of the males, not of the females.

Theophilus.

The law yet neuertheleſſe ſayth, eueryevery ſoule, eueryevery perſon. Wherefore if we muſt take the wordes by rigor, without a fitte interpretation, wée muſt comprehend the females, if there had bene none other places, which doe giuegive vntounto vsus the intelligence & vnderſtanding of the lawe: beſides that the inſtitution of the ſame doth ſufficiently declare, that it extendeth not vntounto the women. Thē if the womē be exempt, bicauſe that the lawe bindeth them not, ſo are the Infants which dye before the eight day. For they are not bound by the law before y^e terme: or otherwiſe, God would not hauehave held his peace, ſooner then of ther thinges which were not of ſo great importance. But when the eight day was come, I doubt not, that if thorow contempning, negligence and diſpiſing, the circumciſion had bene omitted, but y^• the Lord Rebellion and diſpiſing the cōmaundement of God.would hauehave bene greatlye offended: not by reaſon of the ſigne, but thorowe the rebellion and diſpiſinge of his woorde, the which hee taketh in greate diſpleaſure: as he hath ſhewed the example of him that gathered ſticks on the ſabboth day. It ſeemed that y^• fault was not great, …. 15. d. …nor ſuch as though he had committed a murther. And yet neuertheles god puniſhed him w^t a cruel death, as though he had cōmitted the greateſt crime in the world. It is then an other thing to hauehave omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God, thorow negligence, diſpiſing & rebellion, or to hauehave left it vndone, thorow neceſſitie, or bicauſe that it was not poſſible. For when there is let, ſuch that man cannot auoyde Neceſſitieit, and that this minde and will was good, and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it. I doe not beléene y^t god imputeth the fault vntounto him vntounto whom hée was not bounde. For the ſaluation of men conſiſteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vsus, by the which doth the ſmall and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowſhippe of the people of God. We doe not denye, but that that alliaunce is ſigned and ſealed by the ſacramēts, and that the baptiſme is but the ſigne and ſeals among the Chriſtians, as the circumciſion was amonge the Iewes. But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that ſigne and ſeale. Wherfore there is no doubt, but that thoſe which do ſhut vp the kingdome of heauen vntounto the infants for want and lack of the ſigne, do vntounto them great wrong, and do béely the promiſes of God, which by them hauehave pronounced them to be his, before y^• they were borne, ſaying: that he is our God and the God of our children. And therfore thoſe which do make that outward baptiſme Gene…. 17. 2. …ſo neceſſary vntounto ſaluation, what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments, attributing vntounto the material & corruptible elements that which apperteineth vntounto the only vertue of God, & wherto ſerueth it? Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the ſcholaſtical doctors, which hauehave iudged that baptiſme Iul…. 4. ſent.neceſſary vntounto ſaluation. For which cauſe they hauehave alſo permitted and eſtablyſhed, that the woemen might and ought to baptiſe in tyme of neceſſitie. p. 229But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that ſuperſtition: and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promiſe and allyaunce, nor of the reaſons by mée alledged: or otherwiſe the Iſraelites ſhould hauehave greatly fayled, and chiefely Moſes, which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God, to Circumciſion deferredhauehave dwelled at the leaſt, the ſpace of fourty yeres, ſithens the departing from Aegypt, vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan, without circumciſing y^• children. Yet it is to be beléeued, that during that time, many dyed, without being circumcyſed: and although none had dyed, did it not ſéeme rightly, that Moſes, and all the other Iſraelites did againſt the ordinance of god: ſith that they executed it not at the day appointed?

Thomas.

Is it true that they hauehave abode ſo long time without circumciſing the children?

Theophilus.

If they had bene circumciſed, it ſhoulde not hauehave bene written, that Ioſua cauſed them to bee circamciſed, after y^• they were entred into the land of Chanaan. Ioſua. 5. 2. 2Josh 5:2But by that example thoſe holy men do ſhew vntounto vsus, how we ought to vnderſtand the matter of the exterior ſacraments. For notwithſtanding that it is written of the Genes. 17. 2. 7 Rom. 4. b. 11.Gen 17:2Gen 17:7Rom 4circumciſion: This is mine alliaunce with your generations by an euerlaſting ordinaunce: and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted, yet neuertheleſſe they hauehave well vnderſtanded, that that ſacrament was a publike ceremony, for to witneſſe the allyaunce of God betwóene that people, and in the Iewiſh Churche, as the Exo. 13. b. 12Exod 13Paſcal Lambe and their other ſacraments. Wherfore when they had iuſte and lawfull lette, and that they had not the time, and place, and other things requiſit to theyr ceremonies, they hauehave made it no great cōſcience to omit them, & did not thinke that therby their ſaluation ſhould be in daunger, for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and diſpiſing of God. As they had S…auation vvith out exteriour ſacramentsthen the females ſaued thorow fayth, and the ſpiritual and interior circumciſion, without carnal and exterior circumciſion, euen ſo did they y^• males, knowing y^• they were cōpriſed in y^• aliance of God, by the which, of his pure grace & merciemercy, he graunteth ſaluatiō vntounto his elect: y^• which he giueth through his holie ſpirite, as it pleaſeth him, aſwel w^t out ſacraments as w^t ſacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius & thoſe which were in his houſe, which hauehave receiued y^• holie Ghoſt before they were baptiſed of S. Peter. Cornellus. Act. 10. f. 44.Acts 10But yet they neuertheleſſe did not diſpiſe the exteriour … outward baptiſme, although y^• they were alreadie baptiſed by y^• holy Ghoſt For y^• man ſhould be verie proud, which Honour vntounto y^• ſacraments. Daniel. 9. aDan 9would diſpiſe y^• baptiſme ordeyned by Ieſus Chriſt, ſith y^• he himſelfe, which is y^• holy of y^• holyeſt, who alone can ſanctifie the ſinners, & baptiſe with the holy Ghoſt & with fire, did not diſpiſe the ſame of S. Iohn Baptiſt. But if the Mat. 3. c. 13Matt 3elect, aſwel little as great, which hauehave ben among y^• Gentiles The gentiles ſaued vvithout circumciſion Ion. 35. 3. & 4 4. Reg. 5. a. d 14 4. Reg. 24. a Iob. 43.& Panims, hauehave bene ſaued without exteriour circumciſion, as it appeareth in y^• Niniuites, Nahaman, Iob, Nabuchodonoſor & other like, which hauehave had knowledg of God, & hauehave had their recourſe vntounto his merciemercy, wherefore ſhal y^• ſame priuiledge be denyed vntounto thoſe that be hath, not only elected through his eternall election, belō ging vntounto all his ſeruants, but alſo he hath giuen vntounto them y^• witneſſe by the exteriour ſacraments, if they had ſuch lettes & excuſes, & as reaſonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could hauehave? For why were not the elect which were among y^• Panims accuſed, in being not circumciſed, but bicauſe that they were not in the land of Iſrael, nor in the viſible church, & among y^• people which he had choſen, vntounto whom he cōmaunded ſuch things. If they had bene among the Iſraelites, and that they might hauehave communicated with them, it had bene requiſite to be circum… ſed, and to vſe the ſame ſacraments. But when they were in a place, in which they had not that exteriour mym…re, nor could not hauehave it, the Lorde was contented with the meanes that it pleaſed him to giuegive vntounto thé. Now if ſuch neceſſitie happened vntounto the Iſraelites, I doubt not, but that the obli…ation of the lawe hath ceaſed, p. 230when the cauſes, for which it was giuen are ceaſed: and the ſpirituall circumciſion of the heart, ſuffiecth for it ſelfe & for the exterior, & the ſpirituall ſacrifices, for the material. For whē they were in y^• wildernes, & that they muſt be readie eueryevery day to remoue their hoſt & houſhold ſtuffe eueryevery houre, when God commaunded them they did well Iudge, y^• God woulde not y^• they ſhould be murtherers of their young children, whom they could not circumciſe, but y^• they would be very ſick & in daunger of drath, if they had not had time & place to looke well vntounto them, as we may preſume, by the Sichemytes, who were ſo ſicke after Sichemites Geneſ. 34. d. 26Gen 34their circumciſion, y^• they could not defende themſelues againſt y^• two ſonnes of Iacob. And therfore Moyſes hath well conſidered, y^• the circumciſion was made for man & Mat. 12. a 1 Mar. 2. d. 27 Luc. G. a. 5 Iohn. 7. c. 22Matt 12Mark 2John 7not man for y^• circumciſion, as he writeth of y^• ſabboth. And alſo y^• the people were not in place, where they might hauehave their church garniſhed & bewtified as it ought to be. Then if y^• Iewes, which had ſuch expreſſe commaundement had verie wel ſuch diſpenſation & exception, ſhall we put the Chriſtians & their young children in worſe conditiō then y^• Iewes? I cannot marueil too much, of y^• queſtion which y^• Theologians made, to wit, whether we ought to accōpt The queſtion of the Theologiās Gerſ in Flo. de baptiſ ca de t…s na de con. diſt. 4. ca. ad. lunina 30. q. 1.& take an Infant to be baptiſed, which for want of water ſhould be caſt into a well, in pronouncing the ſacramentall words, which apperteine to the ſubſtaūce & forme of the ſacrament? Upon which many Canoniſts & Theologians anſwered y^• he was: & ſaid y^• the ſame hath ben ſome times done. Although y^• there are other of diuerſe opinions, & which do not take ſuch an Infant for to be baptiſed. Hillar. If I were y^• Iudge in y^• cauſe, I would condemne to death, as an homicide, him y^• ſhould ſo caſt away & kil y^• infant.

Theophilus.

We may wel know by ſuch queſtions & theological reſolutions, of what ſpirit the doctrine which thou mainteineſt Euſeb. proceedeth, y^• which putteth ſuch neceſſitie in the exterior baptiſme, that thoſe which doe vpholde and followe it, are conſtrayned, euen to murther the Infauntes: or at the leaſt, they are in doubt and perplexitie, eyther to kill them or drowne them after that ſort, or to ſuffer thē to die, doubting that they are loſt and reiected of God. I am much abaſhed, how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy, towards the children of the Chriſtians, after the manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, then he The cōdition of he children of the chriſtians.hath bene towards the children of the Iewes, before his comming.

Euſebius.

What is hée, that ſaith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Chriſtiane, then towards the children of the Iewes?

Theophilus.

Thou, and thoſe which doe follow the doctrine which thou vpholdeſt & mayntaineſt. It is moſt true, that you doe not ſpeake it openly, but your doctrine importeth no leſſe. For what rigor ſhould God doe, againſt the little Infants of the Chriſtians, if for want of being w…tte with a little water, they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradiſe? I hauehave alredy ſufficiently proued, that the children of the Iewes, were not bound vntounto ſuche neceſſitie: although that the commaundement of the circumciſion giueth an expreſſe terme, the which is not in the baptiſme: wherein then ought the children of the Chriſtians to be more culpable, then thoſe of the Iewes? If it hath pleaſed god, to ſend vntounto the mother, any aduerſitie, or ſickneſſe, whiche was the cauſe that ſhée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful time, what fault can be in the child? and what conſolation doth your doctrine bring vntounto the poore mother, being alreadie ſufficiently ſcourged and afflicted of the hand of God, to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vntounto perpetuall exile, and baniſhed from Paradiſe for euer? And that hee is detayned in the Limbe, in the which without ceaſing hee curſeth Father and mother? At the leaſt wyſe the Carhards hauehave preached and perſwaded them ſo.

Thomas.

Yea; I hauehave heard them preach more ouer: that is to ſay, that it were better that a Towne, a Ceuntry, or a kingdome were drowned, then an Infaunt ſhoulde p. 231dye without baptiſme.

Theophilus.

If the Infant did come vntounto the age of diſcretion, and that hee deſpiſoth the baptiſme, I would not excuſe his infidelitie and rebellion. Or if the father & mother, thorough their negligence, diſpiſing & infidelitie, hauehave made none accompt to baptiſe their child, I would not alſo excuſe them, but that they ſhould yeld them ſelues greatly culpable before God, & worthy of greeuous puniſhment. But I will not, yet neuertheleſſe therefore, iudge raſhely of the ſaluation of the childe. For GOD 2. Tim. 2. c. 192 Tim 2knoweth thoſe that are his. And man hath not power to danipue, him whome God woulde hauehave ſaued. And if it hath not pleaſed God to ſhewe that grace and fauour vntounto the Father and Mother, that they cannot ſée their childe aliue, for to offer and preſent him vntounto him and to his Churche by the baptiſme, wherefore ſhall hée vſe ſuch furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents, which are already ynough deſolate and without comfort? What iniury doe you vntounto Ieſus Chriſte? Theſe Infants borne dead ſhoulde not hauehave great occaſion to bleſſe his comming, nor to ſing with thoſe which hauehave receiued him, when he entred into Hieruſalem: Bleſſed be the ſonne Mat. 21. a 9 Mare 11. b. 10. Luc. 19 f 38.Matt 21Luke 19of Dauid, which commeth in the name of the Lord. They ſhould hauehave hadde more iuſt occaſion to curſſe and deteſt him, ſith that in ſteede to amende their condition, hée hath put them in worfe eſtate then the Iewes were before his comming: You cannot denye that abſurditie and inconuenience, if you will mainteine your doctrine truely, the which declareth it ſelfe altogether contrary, to the doctrine of the goſpell, full of all conſolation, in ſtéede of which your doctrine bringeth but deſolation and deſpaire. Hillarius. I can ſpeake by experience. For I hauehave knowen holy wo…men, walking in true ſimplicitie of heart and great feare of God, which were ſo troubled in their conſcience, bicauſe that ſuch inconueniences happened vntounto them, and that they were ſo perſwaded, that with much a doe, one could ſinde any meanes to comfort them and ſet their conſcyence at reſt and in quiet: what ſoeuer things … ſay vntounto them. Although that one tolde and affirmed vntounto them, that our Lady of Lauſanne ſhewed grace vntounto the Infant, and that thoſe which were preſent did witneſſe vntounto them of the goodly myracle that ſhe had done in rayāng to life the Infant for to baptiſe it being dead, afterwardes did put him in the graue, yet neuertheleſſe all that coulde not aſſure them: and they coulde not be at reſt in their conſcience, vntill ſuch time as thorough the preaching of the Goſpell, they were deliuered from thoſe falſe oppinions of Caphards and deuilliſhe doctrines.

Theophilus.

That is that which ſathan and the falſe prophets do deſire, the conſciences ſhoulde be troubled & deſolate: for then gaine they moſt. They hauehave of mē that they deſire: & their fiſhing is beſt in troubled water. Euſebius. Thou haſt concluded that according to our doctrine it ſhould followe, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhoulde hauehave impaired the eſtate of the Chriſtians. But wherein? For thoſe of the Iewes ſhal no more enter into Paradiſe, then thoſe here.

Theophilus.

If they went into Abrahams boſome, by the which thou vnderſtandeſt the Lymbe, there was no more greater puniſhment for them, then for the others which were circumcyſed: ſith that all doe goe thither indifferently: as I hauehave ſufficiently ſhewed vntounto thee. Afterwards thoſe which then were in the Lymbe, hoped to be deliuered, the which is denied vntounto the poore children of the Chriſtians. Wherefore it ſhould followe, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhoulde rather come for to ſhowe and bring vntounto them the wrath and iudgement of God, then his grace and mercy. Furthermore, thoſe which were in Abrahams boſome, were not without hauing ſome taſte Conſolation and comfort in Abrahams boſomeand perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyſe: as it appeareth plainely, by the wordes of Abraham, anſwering vntounto the rich man after this manner: Thou haſt had pleaſure in this worlde. Wherefore thou muſt howe ſuffer, Luc. 10. f. 25.Luke 10and that the chaunce be tourned. And contrariwiſe Lazarus p. 232hath ſuffered greate tribulations and iniſeryes. Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at reſt and ioy. Thou canſt not denye but that theſe wordes are true. If they bée true, thou art conſtrayned to confeſſe, that in Abrahames boſome is conſolation, reſt and ioy. And howe can theſe thinges be, out of the kingdome of GOD, Rom. 14. c. 17Rom 14which is righteouſueſſe, peace, and ioye in the holye Ghoſt?

Euſebius.

I hauehave not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes, being deade without Circumſition, ſhould go vntounto the Lymbe of the fathers, but into another.

Theophilus.

It behoueth then to forge Lymbes. But where is the witneſſe of the Scripture, for to prooue the ſame? And do the children of the Chriſtians go ſtraight way vntounto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers?

Euſebius:

No.

Hillarius.

Then there is preſently a chamber to heyre.

Theophilus.

Doeſt thou not knowe into what dreams and fooliſhneſſe that doctrine doth leade you? Truely I am aſhamed. Wherefore I pray thée, that thou do holde thy ſelfe content with that that I hauehave aunſwered vntounto thée: and that nowe thou do come vntounto the queſtion which I hauehave propounded vntounto thee, to wit, what difference thou putteſt betwéene the boſome of Abraham and Paradiſe?

Euſebius.

I do not meane to paſſe thy queſtion without aunſwering vntounto it. But thou letteſt ſlippe the principall obiection which I hauehave made vntounto thee, without hauing ſatiſfyed mee therein. ObiectionWherefore I would hauehave the reſolution before thou doeſt eſcape mée. Howe may wée then vnderſtande that which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid? Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Iohn. 3. a. 5John 3Spirite, he cannot enter into the kingdome of GOD. Doth he not by thoſe wordes openly declare, that the baptiſme of the water is neceſſarie vntounto ſaluation? And VVhether baptiſme with vvater be neceſſary to ſaluationthat he which ſhall not be baptiſed with water, cannot enter into ſhe kingdome of heauen. For he hath not onelyonly ſayde: hee that ſhalbe borne a newe of the Spirite, but he hath alſo added, the water, for to declare that the one and the other are requiſit. I confeſſ… that the water without the ſpirit ſuffiſeth net: and that the viſ…l… …, without faith, cannot ſaue. For it is firſt ſayd… th… … afterwards there is added, and is baptiſed ſhall bee ſaued. But I cannot vnderſtand, Marc 16. c. 16.Mark 16but that the baptiſme of the water is in like manner neceſſarie vntounto ſaluation. Or I know not to what ende Ieſus Chriſte pr…tended by thoſe wordes, that hee hath aunſwered vntounto ….

Theophilus.

Before we do paſſe any farther, note d…ygently, that notwithſtanding that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayed: Marc. 16. c. c. 16.Mark 16He that beléeueth and ſhalbe baptiſed ſhalbe ſaued. Yet neuertheleſſe in the contrary propoſition which followeth he hath not re…terated the baptiſme. He hath not ſaide: he that beléeueth not and ſhall not be baptiſed, ſhalbe condempned: But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing, ſhewing that without the ſame, none can be deliuered from condemnation: the which he hath not affirmed of the baptiſme. And yet neuertheleſſe he ſpeaketh there of the outward and viſible baptiſme: And not only of the ſame of the young children, but of the …lde and greate ones, vntounto whom the apoſtles were ſent for to preach the Goſpell. Now iudge, if Ieſus Chriſt hath not required the viſible baptiſme of the greate ones, as neceſſary vntounto ſaluation, how wil he require it of the young children? I will geue none occaſyon vntounto any man, by my wordes, to deſpyſe the Sacraments. For thou knoweſt already what ſentence I hauehave giuen againſt thoſe that do deſpiſe it. But I do…eane an… ſa… that if any good man were, eyther among the Turkes, or among the Idolaters and Infidels, which had knowledge of the goſpel & true faith in Ieſus Chriſt, and that it was not poſſible for him to bee baptiſed, I cannot beléeue, that he ſhould be dampned for lacke of a little water: ſith that he hath the principall, to witte, the faith: or otherwiſe, the water ſhoulde hauehave more vertue & p. 233efficacie, then the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt or at the leaſt as much. And the Prieſt which adminiſtreth the baptiſme, ſhould hauehave as much power as Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe. For it ſhould follow, that euen as the water, or the Miniſter in like manner, can do nothing without the ſpirit & bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, that Ieſus Chriſtes ſpirit alſo, nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Miniſter. And ſo Ieſus Chriſt and his eſpirit ſhould be as much ſubiect vntounto the Miniſter and the water, as the water and the Miniſter vntounto them: And ſo conſequently, his grace & mercy ſhall be bound vntounto the corruptible elements & ſubiect Saluation and health bound vntounto the elementsvntounto men. After that manner Ieſus Chriſt ſhould bée no more a true God, nor a true Sauiour. And ſo it is eaſy to iudge, that ſuch doctrine procéedeth not of God, ſith that it …pugneth euidently the grace of God: the iuſtification of faith, and the annalogy of the ſa…ie, and bo… ouerturne altogether the miſtery of y^• redeption made by Ieſus Chriſt: The which thing, not onelyonly the auncient Doctors, but alſo Sent. 4. diſt. 4. Sunt.the Scholaſticals and Queſtionaries hauehave wel perceiued, namely the maſter of the ſentences, which proueth by good Saluation vvith ou… viſible baptiſme De ciuit. Dei. li. 13. ca. 7 De con. diſt. 4 baptiſmi. De vni bap. …. 4 li. 4. de bap. glo. de conſ. diſt. 4. b…ptiſm…. & Cypris. Baptiſme of de… …otion Vnde verſus ex Io. chan de ſacra. Indan…rreus, contritus ad …. mina templi. Si tibi defuerint aqua, presbyter & moriatur.reaſons, and by the witneſſe of the auncient Doctors of the Church, that ſome are iuſtified & ſaued without baptiſme, amongeſt whom ſaint Auguſtine comprehendeth all thoſe which are dead, and hauehave ſuffered martyrdome for the con…ion of Ieſus Chriſt. In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is ſette foorth by the maſter of the ſentences, by the which he witneſſeth, that the ſaith, the repen…aunce and conuerſ…on of the heart doth recompence and ſuffice for baptiſme vntounto thoſe that hauehave not the time, nor place for to receiue it, & they doe call it baptiſme of …. And for confirmation of this, he ioyneth to the example of the thée…e which was crucified next to Ieſus: the which ſaith he was not crucified for the name of Chriſt, but for his demerits and wicked déedes: And he did not ſuffer bicauſe …e beléued, but in ſuffering he beléeued. It is then declared in that thee…e how much ſayth a…ayleth, without the Sacrament of viſible baptiſme: The which the Apoſtle ſayth: The beléefe of the heart iuſtifieth, and Firmiter in Criſtum credēs ſaluabitur ille. Rom. 10. b. 9Rom 10to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man ſafe. But then hée doth accompliſh it inuiſibly, when the neceſſitye ſhutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptiſme, not the diſpiſinge of the religion. Hee may hauehave ſome kinde of baptiſme, where he ſhall not hauehave couerſion of y^• heart. And the conuerſion of the heart maye bée in ſome, without hauing receiued baptiſme: But it cannot be ther where baptiſme is diſpiſed: and we muſt not in no wiſe call that conuerſion of the heart vntounto God, when the ſacrament of De con. diſt. 4. c. baptiſmi. Sent. 4. diſt. 4.God is diſpiſed. Be holde the witneſſe, the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls, and the maſter of the ſentences, taken of Cyprian, & addeth the ſame of Saint Ambroſe, touching the Emperour Valenti…ian, who dyed without baptiſme, of whō he ſaith: Valentinian. Ambro. de obit. Valent.I hauehave loſt him whom I ought to hauehave regenerated. But yet neuertheleſſe hée hath not loſt the grace, the which hée required. Now if we ought to hauehave ſuch confidence and truſt of the health and ſaluation of the great and olde men which coulde not hauehave the baptiſme, by a more ſtronger reaſon we ought to hauehave it of the young Infants. For if they be of Gods elect, it is in his power to baptiſe them in their mothers belly by his holy ſpirit, & to ſanctifie them, as it is written of Iacob, of …eremy, Sainct Iohn Baptiſt, Gene. 25. c. 22 …ere. 1. …. 5 Lu…. 1. f. 64 Rom. 10 Gal. …. c. 15Gen 25Rom 10& of Saint Paul, Euſebius. How can we then abſolue the propoſition of Ieſus Chriſt? For it is generall, and excluſiue without excepting any perſon.

Theophilus.

As much may I ſay of that that he hath ſaid of his fleſh and of his bloud, ſpeaking in this manner: verely, verely I ſay vntounto Io…s. 6. f. 33you, except ye eate the fleſh of the ſonne of man and drinke his bloud, ye ſhall not hauehave life in you. Doth not that propoſition counteruail… as much, as if he had ſayd: whoſoeuer ſhall not eate my fleſh and drinke my bloud, ſhall not hauehave eternall life? none can denie the ſame. It followeth then, that all the younge children are dampned and all thoſe which doe not cōmunicate in the Sacrament of the ſupper: if the Popiſh doctrine bée true, that Ieſus Chriſt p. 234is really in the hoaſt, and that wée muſt there eate hys fleſh and drinke his bloude, after the manner as they hauehave taught vsus. It ſhall not be then no leſſe neceſſary to keepe the conſecrated hoaſtes, and of the Gods in the boxe, for to communicate to the little children, & to giuegive vntounto them the Sacrament of the Euchariſte, as the ſame of baptiſme. For the wordes of Ieſus Chriſt doe vrge no leſſe in the one of the places then in the other. And if thou doo thinke, that there is great difference; I wil ſhew vntounto thée eaſely, that many among the auncients, hauehave perceiued & iudged it to be ſo as I ſay: or otherwiſe, in y^e time of Charlemaine they woulde not hauehave kept the Euchariſtia, for to giuegive it vntounto y^e little children, when they were ſicke, if they had not eſteemed the thing very neceſſary. Yet neuertheleſſe it is written in the booke of Anſegiſus, Abbot of Liege, that the Anſegiſus.ſame was done in that time there, and reciteth the canon which was made. But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians, the which Error of the Bohemians and Morauiansyet neuertheleſſe the Papiſts themſelues doe not allow: no more then that which S. Cyprian & Origene did, which did diſtribute the ſupper vntounto young children, when their fathers The ſupper giuegive to infants by Cyprian & Origenand mothers brought them in their armes, in comming to communicate the ſame. And they gaue vntounto them not onelyonly the breade, but alſo the cup. Now let vsus thinke if already ſuch errors were about the ſacraments in that time there, what may chaunce afterwards. For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt two hundreth and fiftie. Thoſe worthy men would not hauehave ſo much attributed vntounto the Sacraments, if they had not ſo much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Ieſus Chriſt. Of the like beginning came vp the error of thoſe which eſtéemed & thought y^e he, which after y^t he was baptiſed, & hauing once receiued y^e ſupper, could neuer be damned, or at the leaſt, ſhould be once delyuered from damnation, bicauſe that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid: I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen: if Iohn. 6. f. 5John 6anyman eate of this bread, hée ſhall liue for euer. They vrge vponupon the letter, & ſaid that Ieſus Chriſt could not lye, which hath promiſed the ſame. Yet neuertheles Sainct Auguſtine rebuketh & confuteth their errour. Beholde Aug. li. 21. de cius. Dei Error about the Suppery^• abſurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures, & when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter. For whoſoeuer wil, according to the opinion which the Papiſtes hauehave of the Sacrament of the alter, take litterally y^• which Ieſus Chriſt ſaid of eating of his fleſh & drinking his bloud, there is no doubt, but that we ſhall be conſtrayned to confeſſe, that all thoſe which hauehave once taken the ſupper, are all ſaued: and y^• all thoſe which ſhall not once receiue it, are all damned. And ſo it ſhalbe no leſſe requiſite to giuegive y^• ſupper vntounto the young childrē & to giuegive power vntounto womē to giuegive it them, then y^• baptiſme: they y^• would take the words & thoſe matters by y^• rigor. And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged, by the abſurdities which ſhould follow of thy expoſitiō, the which do repugne againſt the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, as I hauehave declared vntounto thee, thou maiſt wel know, that we muſt not vnderſtand that place after that manner, as thou doeſt expounde it. For Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh not in that place there of viſible baptiſme, nor of his inſtitution: Regeneration Expoſition of the place of ſaint Iohn 3John 3But ſpeaketh of the regeneration of man: and ſheweth what thing he muſt hauehave for to be a Chriſtian, to wit, that it is neceſſary, that he doe renounce & forſake his firſt generation & natiuitie, which is altogether corrupted and curſed, and that he be regenerated by the ſpirit of God, and 1. Peter. 1. d. 23 2. Cor. d. 17 1. Cor. 15. f. 451 Pet 11 Cor 15thorowe the incorruptible ſéede of his woorde, inſomuch that he is made a newe creature, bearinge the Image of Ieſus Chriſt, the true celeſtiall Adam, euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terreſtriall Adam. And therefore Iohn. 3. 2. 3John 3:2John 3:3hath hée ſayd: Except a man be borne from aboue or a new, be cannot ſée the kingdome of God. And after he expoundeth it by the other propoſition following, which ſignifieth none other thing, then that which hée hath already ſayd before. For to be borne from aboue, or to bée To be borne of vvaterborne againe, and to be borne of water and the holy Ghoſt, p. 235are equiualent manners of ſpeakings: And the two propoſitions of Ieſus Chriſt, are equipolent y^• one to the other: & ther is none other difference, ſauing that y^• laſt is more ample, and expoundeth the firſt. For ſith that our firſt natiuitie is carnal, it muſt be y^• the ſecond be ſpirituall. Sith that 1. Cor. 15. f. 471 Cor 15the firſt man is of the earth earthly, it is requiſite, that the ſecond, which is from heauen, be heauenly and ſpirituall. Now that regeneration & tranſformation cannot be made, but by the ſpirite of God. For as it is written in that ſame place: That which is borne of the fleſh, is fleſh. That that Iohn. 3. a. 6.John 3is borne of the ſpirit, is ſpirit. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt willing to expoūd vntounto Nicodemus y^• which he had ſaid before: Except y^• a man be borne frō aboue or a new, he cannot ſee the kingdome of God: Afterwardes ſaith: which ſhall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghoſt: bicauſe that the holy Ghoſt, author of that regeneration, is giuen from aboue: which worketh a ſecōd natiuitie in vsus, which is celeſtiall and ſpirituall.

Euſebius.

But what néeded it to adde the water? was it not ſufficient to name the holy Ghoſt.

Theophilus.

Wherefore hath Iohn Baptiſt ſayd, ſpeaking To baptiſe with the holy Ghoſt and vvith fire. Mat. 3 c. 11.Matt 3of the miniſtry of Ieſus Chriſt: That he would baptiſe with the holye Ghoſte and with fire: what néeded it, ſith that he named the holy Ghoſt, to adde vntounto it the fire? Shall it be therefore neceſſary to conſtitute a baptiſme of the fire, as ſome do ſay, that ſome Chriſtians which are amongſt y^• Indians, Aethiopians & Perſians do, who for that Indianscauſe did vſe the fire for baptiſme of the fire?

Euſebius.

One may well perceiue there, that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore: and that he vnderſtandeth no other thing by the fire, then the holy Ghoſt, of whom he hath already ſpokē the better to expound the nature of the ſame: for as the fire, is pure & cleane, and cannot ſuffer any ſpot The holy ghoſt is a fire.or filth, but purgeth, maketh cleane, & illuminateth the conſciences, & enflameth them to the louelove of God. For which cauſe, he was ſent vntounto y^• Apoſtles in y^• liknes of tongues Act. 2. a. 3Acts 2of fire: the which S. Iohn did foreſée & foreſpeak off, vſing ſuch wordes.

Theophilus.

Thy expoſition doth pleaſe me very much. Wherefore if thou makeſt it no difficultie, to take in that place the fire, for the ſpirit of God & for more ample expoſitiō of his nature & properties, wherfore oughteſt thou to make a doubt to take y^• water in that place for that ſame ſignification, ſéeing y^• agréeing y^• the water hath with the nature of y^• holy Ghoſt? For there is no leſſe reaſon: but a great deale more appearance. For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghoſt firſt, & the fire afterwards. Wherfore it ſéemeth, either that he vnderſtandeth two thinges ſeperated: or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere, by a more darker thing: Although that thy aunſwere doth ſufficiently ſatiſfye that obiection. But in that place Ieſus Chriſt putteth y^• water firſt: & afterwards, as if hée would Holy Ghoſt vvaterexpound his Metaphore and compariſon, and giuegive vntounto it more greater brightneſſe, he declareth what he would ſignifie by that water: to wit, the holy Ghoſt: vntounto whom he giueth that name for many cauſes. Firſt, bicauſe that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane, and ſo neceſſary vntounto mans life, that it is impoſſible for men to lack it, ſo is it of y^• water: the which is alſo by nature cléere, pure and cleane and very proper for to repreſent the ſame of the holy Ghoſt. For it waſheth, purifieth, cleanſeth and refreſheth the hearts and conſciences, for to comfort them, and to make them bring foorth fruite pleaſing vntounto God: in ſuch ſort that the water cauſeth the earth to fructifie & renoweth and maketh it fertile, & waſheth away the filthineſſe Heb. 6. b. 7Heb 6from the body. It quencheth and putteth out in lyke manner the fire and heate of wicked carnall concupiſcences, as the water quencheth out the fire: and quēcheth the thirſt and alteration of the poore féebled ſoules, & refreſheth them for euer. The ſeconde cauſe is, that hée would hauehave opened vntounto vsus the intelligence and vnderſtanding of ceremonies, baptiſmes and purifycations conteyned in the law of Moſes & of y^• prophets in like manner, by which the holy ghoſt was promiſed, chiefly by Eſay & Ezechiel: vntounto Eſa. 44. …. 1 Ezech. 36. g. 33.Isa 44Ezek 36whom he maketh alluſion & hath had the regard thervnto. p. 236Therefore he would expound them vntounto vsus, and giuegive vsus to vnderſtand, that thoſe waters promiſed of God, did ſignifie none other thing, thē the aboūdance of the holy ghoſt, which ought to be ſhed foorth vponupon all fleſh, as a riuer and a floud of water, whiche watereth and ouerfloweth all the earth. The which Sainct Peter witneſſeth to hauehave bene Act. 2. 2. 1Acts 2:2Acts 2:1accompliſhed both in him and in the other Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſt, the day of Pentecoſt, according to y^• prophecie of Ioel. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt, would as well in Ioel. 2. g. 29Joel 2that place, as in ſpeaking vntounto the Samaritane, and bidding thoſe which were in the temple to come drinke of thoſe liuing Iohn. 4. b. 14 & 7. f. 38John 4waters, vſe thoſe manners of ſpeakings: And for to declare vntounto vsus in like manner, to what ende he hath inſtituted the ſigne of the water, in the baptiſme. And that it is true, I doe take Sainct Iohn for a witneſſe: who expounding the words of his Maſter, ſaith: that he vnderſtandeth by thoſe waters, y^• holy Ghoſt y^• which the beléeuers ought to receiue. Thirdly, by that forme of figured ſpeaking, be teacheth vsus in like manner, what the Chriſtian man ought to bée, that is, regenerated by the holy Ghoſt, ſetting foorth the water and the winde, which are bodyes more ſubtill, thinner, cléerer, & purer then the earth, which is an elemēt more weightier, vnpurer, thicker and materyall. Theſe wordes then doe ſignifie as much as if hée had ſayde, that in ſtéede of that weightie, earthlye, carnall and corruptible man, wée muſt be regenerated into a newe man, heauenlye, ſpirituall and perfect: as much differing from this héere whiche is earthly and fallinge, as the water and the winde doe differ from the earth: And it muſt be that the ſame is done by the holy Ghoſt which is the true water, which maketh that purification in vsus.

Euſebius.

Thy expoſition is not without a fayre ſhew. But ought I therefore the ſooner to receyue it, then the ſame of the auncient Doctours, who in that place by the water, hauehave vnderſtanded the baptiſme whiche is giuen by the water: and chiefely Saincte Iohn Chriſoſtome.

Theophilus.

I am well content, to magnifie with the auncients In. Io. ca. 3 hom. 24.the Sacraments, as much as ſhall be poſſible: So that thou wilt vnderſtande them ſo as they themſelues would they ſhould be vnderſtanded. For although that I would receiue the expoſition of Chriſoſtome, it followeth not therefore, that by the ſame one may conclude, the element of the water to be ſo neceſſary vntounto ſaluation, that without the ſame, man cannot obteine it. For wée muſt conſider, that when the ſcripture & the auncient Doctors do ſpeake of the ſacraments, they hauehave not regarde onelyonly The ſtile of the ſcripture & of the auncient Doctors touching the ſacramentsto the outward ſigne, but do ſtaye themſelues principally vponupon the thing ſignified by them, the which they doe vnderſtand properly. And therefore following their intellygence, we may expounde thoſe wordes after that ſence, as if Ieſus Chriſt did ſay: hée which ſhall not waſh away his ſinnes, which ſhall not receiue truely the holy Ghoſt, and which ſhall not be receiued into my Church, and into my flocke, after the manner as I hauehave ordeyned that hée ſhoulde doe by the baptiſme, ſhall not enter into the kingdome of God. It followeth not therefore, that he which ſhall hauehave héere all the thinges compriſed and ſignified by the baptiſme, ought to bée reiected and forſaken of God, if he lacke but the water. But yet the better to content thée, I will declare vntounto thée euidently, that not onelyonly the auncient Doctors, but alſo the ſcholaſticalles and queſtionaries, doe confirme my ſentence. For the maſter of the ſentences, hauing moued the ſame queſtion which Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem.thou haſt propoūded, touching thoſe words of Ieſus chriſt, aunſwered that the ſame place ought to be vnderſtanded, of thoſe which may be baptiſed, and doe make none accompt The expoſition of the ſchoolemen vponupon the place of the 3. chapter of Saint …ohnof it: or that one may thus expound it: he which ſhall not be regenerate of the water & the holy Ghoſt, y^• is to ſay, of that regeneration which is made by the water & the holy Ghoſt ſhall not be ſaued. Now y^• regeneration cannot be made onelyonly by the baptiſme, but alſo thorow penance and by the bloud. Behold the very wordes of the maſter of the ſentences who vnderſtandeth by the bloud, the ſame of the p. 237Martyrs, which is ſhed for the witneſſe of the truth. For your owne doctours perceiuing the abſurdities & inconueniences which would followe if one would vnderſtand that place of Ieſus Chriſt of the exterior baptiſme, and to Three ſortes of baptiſmetake it rig…rouſly hauehave béene compelled to ſay, that there ſhoulde be three ſortes of baptiſme, that is to ſaye, of the De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. baptiſ. Gloſ. ſſ. Bap.water: of the holy Ghoſt: and of bloud: by the whiche diuiſion, they doe confeſſe openly, that there is an other kinde of baptiſme, then the ſame of the water, by the which man may be ſaued. There is the baptiſme of the holy Ghoſt and of faith, which may be without the ſame of the water. VponUpon which the maiſter of the ſentences Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem Aug. de vni bapalledgeth Auguſtine, ſaying: Thou doeſt demaund which is greateſt, either faith, or the water? I doubt not but that thou wilt aunſwere vntounto mée, that it is the faith. If then that which is leaſt can ſanctifie, ſhal not that which is greater do it better, to wit, the faith, of which Ieſus Iohn. …. c. 25Chriſt hath ſaid: he that beléeueth on mée, yea though he were dead, yet ſhall he liue.

Euſebius.

Obiection of the neceſſitie of baptiſme Aug. ad Fortunat. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Cathecumenian.S. Auguſtine neuertheleſſe concludeth of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that none can come vntounto eternall life, without the ſacrament of baptiſme: but thoſe which do ſhead their bloud for the trueth, in the Church. But which is more, he ſayth: we do not beléeue that any Cathecumenian hath eternall life, although that he ſhall dye in good workes, if he be not baptiſed or martyred. You do well knowe that in the auncient Church, thoſe which had receiued the Goſpell, and were not yet baptiſed, were called Cathecumenes, bicauſe that one Cathecumenes.had inſtructed them in the faith. And following that ſame matter, he ſaith more ouer. We beléeue that there is no way of ſaluation but for thoſe that are baptiſed.

Theophilus.

I beleeue that thou art not ignorant, how your Sent. 4. diſt. 4. q. 1. ca. 10. … aur. ope. de ver… contra … 1. p…ce.owne doctours, do anſwere to that place: Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Auguſtine, ſaying: that his exception is not ſufficient, and that the man which knoweth Ieſus Chriſt, may be ſaued without baptiſme, by an other meanes then by martyrdome. But which is more, he affirmeth, that the man which beléeueth himſelfe to be perfectly baptiſed, & yet neuertheleſſe is not, ſhalbe out of all daunger of dampnation: and ſaith that that ſaith ſhoulde ſ…rue hun to ſaluation, although that it were builded vponupon a falſitie. But what is he among vsus, which is perfectly aſſured whether he be baptiſed or no. Howe can we knowe it, but by the witneſſe of an other? Therefore the ma…ſter of the ſentences aunſwereth, vppon the ob…ctions made by thée, that we muſt vnderſtande the wordes of ſaint Auguſtine, according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places, in which he entreateth that matter more amplie: And therefore ſaith he, we muſt vnderſtande thoſe thinges, of thoſe which hauehave had Sent. 4. diſt. 4. His autem. Solution.the time and leaſure for to be baptiſed, & hauehave not done it. For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptiſed, Saluation vvith ou… baptiſme.and cannot, being ouertaken with neceſſitie, the benignitie & liberalitie of y^• moſt puiſſant God, recompenſeth Aug. li. de fide. ad Pet. & in Eccle. do. ca. 44.y^• which wanted in the ſacrament. For when he may pay, if he do not pay, he abideth bound: But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it, God which hath not tyed his power vntounto the ſacraments, imputeth it not vntounto him.

I hauehave alledged vntounto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maiſter of the ſentences which yet proueth by ſaint Auguſtine, that the inuiſible ſactification, hath béene in ſome, and hath profited Aug. in leui. q. 88.them without the viſible ſacramentes, ſaying after this manner: the viſible ſanctification, the which is done by the viſible ſacrament, may be without the inuiſible: but it cannot profite. Yet we muſt not neuertheleſſe contemne and diſpiſe the viſible ſacrament. For the contemner of the ſame, cannot be ſactified inuiſib…e. And notwithſtanding that Holcot alloweth that which others hauehave written of the baptiſme of bloude, he declareth yet neuertheleſſe ſufficiently ynough, that he which without Sent. …. diſt. …. q. …. caſ. 10 Baptiſme of bl…lebeing baptiſed ſheddeth his bleude, for the name of Ieſus p. 238Chriſt, is not baptiſed by that bloude which hath béene ſhed: But that the Church holdeth him for baptiſed, bicauſe that by the ſame, he hath ſufficiently witneſſed, that he hath not diſpiſed baptiſme, but that he woulde willingly receiue it, if it had béene poſſible for him: Sith that he hath ſhewed ſuch faith in the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

I graunt that thou ſaieſt, as touching men of age, vntounto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptiſme. But of young infantes it is otherwiſe. For ſith that there is neither …aith nor repentance in them, they cannot be ſaued without baptiſme. Therefore ſaith the maiſter of the ſentences, that thoſe which dye without baptiſme, yea though The ſentence of Saint Anguſt… touching the children that die vvithout baptiſme L…. de fid. ad pe…re dia. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Fer…miſſumeone bring them to bee baptiſed, ſhalbee dampned: and doth proue it by ſaint Auguſtine, ſaying: holde this for a ſuertie and doubt nothing at all of it, that not onelyonly men hauing already reaſon, but alſo the young infants, which begin to liue in their mothers belly, and doe there die, without the ſacrament of holy baptiſme which is giuen in the name of the father, the ſonne, and the holy ghoſt: or thoſe which without the ſame doe paſſe out of this worlde after that they are borne, ſhalbe puniſhed with eternall fire. For although that they hauehave not had ſinne by theyr proper acte and woorke, yet they hauehave neuertheleſſe drawen vntounto them by their conception and natiuitie, the dampnation of originall The Limbe of the young infants deſtroyedſinne.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants. For if the wordes of Saint Auguſtine be true, according to the ſence whiche thou giueſt vntounto them, the little infantes dying without baptiſme, are all dampned and puniſhed in eternall …re. They are then in hell. Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe. By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne. And therefore they hauehave not all allowed that ſentence, but hauehave iudged it too rigorous and cruell, in ſuch ſort, that ſome, for that cauſe, hauehave called S. Auguſtine, the hangman of the young In…ants: notwithſtanding The hangm… of in…antsthat he is well worthie that they doe ſpeake of him more reucrently. For I do not thinke, that he himſelfe would that theſe wordes ſhoulde be taken after ſuch r… gour and extremitie. And therefore it is néede to conſider the occaſions which might hauehave moued him to write after that ſort. For if the neceſſitie and the impoſſibilitie excuſeth the great ones, wherefore ſhall the little ones …e leſſe excuſable, which hauehave yet more excuſe, then the great ones may hauehave? For when they dye being young, or in their mothers bellie, or out of it, what fault then was in them, that they were not baptiſed? hath God conceiued more greater hatred againſt them then againſt the great ones? although the baptiſme of the water ſhoulde be aſmuch neceſſarie vntounto ſaluation, as you do make it, if there be any exception for the ene, by what right & reaſon may it be denyed vntounto the others, when the cauſe & the excuſes are equall? But we ought to conſider, that in the t…e of Saint Auguſtine there might be a great ſort of people, which had not the Sacraments in ſuch eſtimation and reuerence as they ought to hauehave, (as wée Errors about the Sacramentshauehave proued it in our time) in which ſome hauehave ſo much attributed vntounto it, that they hauehave made of the viſible ſignes a Ieſus Chriſt, and an Idole. The others to the contrarie do holde them as ſignes, without vertue and efficacie, no more then the ſignes which the ſouldiours do beare, for to ſhewe what Prince they do ſerue.

Hillarius.

But hauehave we not had Anabaptiſtes, which would baptiſe them ſelues againe, and hauehave co…demned Anabaptiſtsthe baptiſme of young Infants, willing to deferre it vntill they ſhould come vntounto the age of diſcretion?

Theophilus.

Let vsus not doubt, that from the time of Saint Auguſtine, but that there be many founde, more negligent, then they ought to he, touching the ſacramēts: the which thing hath cōpelled the aun…ients to magnifie p. 239them ſo much. And therefore thoſe which are come after them, not conſidering the cauſes wherefore they did y^e ſame, hauehave taken the wordes rawly, without a fit interpretation, and without taking beede to their manner of ſpeaking rethorically and figuratiuely, which hath beene the cauſe that they hauehave made Idols, as though the vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, and of the Chriſtian religion were in thoſe viſible ſignes. Wée cannot deny, but that in the time of thoſe good auncient fathers, many after that they had knowen the Goſpell, tarryed not long time to cauſe Baptiſm delaiedthemſelues to be baptiſed: yea, often times vntill the latter end of their life. Nowe they did the ſame, ſome through negligence others, bicauſe of the opinion that they had, that thorough the baptiſme, all the ſinnes that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that reaſon they tarryed as long as they could, for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their ſinnes. But which is worſe, ſome vnderunder that hope, did take the greater holdneſſe to ſinne. Whome Chriſoſtome rebuketh, ſhewing vntounto them, that peraduenture God wil not giuegive Chriſ…. in epiſt. ad Hebr. De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. quandothem the grace, to hauehave ſpace to be baptiſed, if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death, and if they did abuſe ſo the baptiſme, as he hath ſéene that it hath happened vntounto many, who thorough that vaine hope & truſt, hauehave béene deceiued. In like manner alſo hath Baſill the great made a ſermon expreſſing that matter and rebuketh very ſharpely thoſe which do ſo. Euen as then the greate and old ones hauehave delayed their baptiſme, it is not to be doubted, but that for theſe ſame reaſons, they hauehave done the like towardes their children. And therefore we muſt not be abaſhed, if ſaint Auguſtine hath written and ſpoken after ſuch ſort of baptiſme, for to correct ſuch faultes, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and ſtirre vp the Chriſtians to giuegive their indeuours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that To baptiſe twice in a yere.cauſe it was auncyently eſtabliſhed in the Church, that they ſhoulde baptiſe twiſe in a yeare. That is to ſay, at Eaſter and at Whitſ…tyde … although that the baptiſme De conſ. diſt. 4.was permitted at all t…e in caſe of …. There was yet an other reaſon, which …ight hauehave giuen … vntounto ſaint Auguſtine to ſpeake ſo. He did ſée and pe…ce…ue that many … infected with the here…e of the Pelagians Pelagians.which did not attribute much vntounto the grace of God, and did … at all originall …, but did greatly mag…fie the vertues and ſtrengthes of men. …or which cauſ… they had not the baptiſme in grea…e eſtimation.

And therefore woulde …aint Auguſtine declare the nature of originall ſinne, and induce men to giuegive and Original ſinnebeare more greater honour vntounto the ſacramentes. Then the better for to manifeſt the ſame, he declareth howe the young infants which hauehave not yet committed any a…tuall ſinne, are not yet neuertheleſſe without ſinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation, bicauſe of their corrupt nature which they hauehave drawen, as from a right inheritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mothers in their conception and natiuitie. For they hauehave béene conceiued and borne in ſinne and in…quitie: and Pſa. 51. … 27Ps 51:27can be none others, then ſuch as the ſinnefull beginning, from which they are come. For that whiche is borne of the …eſh, is fleſh: And a wolfe cannot ingender but Io…n. …. 2. …a young Woolfe: a Serpent a young Serpent. And euen as wée doe not leaue off or ceaſe to hate a young Woolfe, although that he hath not yet eaten any ſhéepe, or a Serpent, notwithſtanding that he hath not yet caſt forth his venym, but do iudge him worthie of death, bicauſe of the peruerſe nature that is in them: ſo ought we to eſtéeme, and thinke that God hath no leſſe occaſion to hate and condempne vsus, euen from our mothers bellie, bicauſe of our per…erſitie and naturall malyce engendred with vsus. And though he ſhoulde dampne vsus eternally, he ſhoulde doe vsus no wrong, but onelyonly that which our nature meriteth and deſerueth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke, which p. 240wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked, ſith that he hath not yet the vnderſtanding, diſcretion nor the power to doe it, it followeth not therefore, but that the peruerſitie and malyce, which is naturall in man, hath alreadie his roote in him, as one part of his paternall in…erita…nce, the which cannot pleaſe God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites, yet they doe remaine ſtill there, as in their roote, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent, although that he bite not: and the nature of a Woolfe, in a young Woolfe, howe innocent ſo euer he ſeemeth to b….

But from whence doe the fruites of the fleſhe procéede, and the ſinnes which man committeth, when hée is of age, but of that vicious roote, of that originall ſinne, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Auguſtine did no wronge, to aggrauate that natural corruption, and to ſay that the infant, from his mothers belly is culpable of e… fire, not onelyonly the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptiſme: if he doe vnderſtande by the baptiſme the grace and merciemercy of GOD which by the ſame is repreſented and communicated vntounto the electe: As I thinke verely, that he did chiefely vnderſtande it.

For if he woulde take it by the rigour, for the exteriour baptiſme, and the materiall ceremony, I cannot nor may not agrée with him: ſith that hée …lledgeth not ſufficient witneſſes of the holy ſcriptures, for ſo proue that propoſition ſo rigorous and ſo repugnant vntounto the b…untie and grace of GOD, as wee hauehave alreadie ſufficiently declared: But I eſtéeme and iudge rather, that hée vnderſtandeth by the baptiſme made in the name of the Father, the Sonn…and of the holye Ghoſt, the vertue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptiſme, whiche is the true ſigne and witneſſe of him, whiche is ſpirituall and interiour, as the ſigne and exteriour ceremonye, by the which yet neuertheleſſe, hée ſignifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue of the baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt, after the manner, as the holy ſcripture hath accuſtomed to vſe. For in the ſame Signes and figures for the things ligned & figuredthe ſigne & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing ſigned and figured, comprehending the whole for parte bicauſe that the ſcripture addreſſeth it vntounto the faithfull, which do not receiue the ſacraments in vaine, and without a ſpirituall meaning: Therefore the Apoſtle ſaith: All ye that are baptiſed hauehave put on Chriſt. And yet neuertheleſſe, Symon the Magitian was baptiſed outwardly Gal. 3. d 27 The ſayth of Simon Act. 8. b. 13.Gal 3Acts 8by Philip, and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Chriſt, ſith that he did not truely beléeue.

Euſebius.

Notwithſtanding it is written in the Actes, that he belieued.

Theophilus.

It is certeine. But yet neuertheles he hath well declared af…ewardes, that the ſame which hée hath done was but diſſembling, and that he had neuer true faith. But ſaint Luke, who hath written the hiſtory ſpeaketh after the common manner of ſpeaking, as wée doe ſay, that a man hath receiued the goſpell: or that a Iewe hath made himſelfe or is become a chriſtian, and hath beléeued in Ieſus which yet neuertheles may doe it, by hypocriſſe, and not in déede. Yet neuertheleſſe we doe ſpeake euen as the thinges are ſhewed vntounto vsus, leauing the iudgment of y^• heart vntounto God. So hath ſaint Auguſtine expounded that which ſaint Luke hath ſpoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued.

Hillarius.

I thinke, Euſebius, that thou oughteſt to content thyſelfe with the aunſwere which Theophilus made vntounto thée. For it is ſo cleare and eaſie, and ſo much confirmable vntounto the Annallogie of the faith, that none can ſpeake againſt it, except he do louelove rather to contende and ſtriue thorowe obſtination, then to content himſelfe with reaſon. And if thou doe diligently conſider, and well way that which hath béene aunſwered vntounto thée, thou m…iſt profite by it many wayes. For by the ſame thou maiſt knowe what ought to be the vſe of the ſacraments: what ought to be the true baptiſme and the true regeneration of a Chriſtian. If thou doſt vnderſtande that, thou ſhall bée p. 241… more in doubt, nor in … of the younge Infant… which dye without baptiſme: But wylt leaue them in the handes of God, and … refor…e all vntounto his mercy. And if thou bée once come vntounto that pointe, th… ſhalt alſo knowe the … o… thoſe which doe carie their children that are bor… dead … they dyd in that … vntounto … of grace of Geneua, or vntounto our … of Lau…anne.

Thomas.

They did alſo cary them vntounto the holye croſſe, and vntounto our Ladye of Butter.Our Lady of butter.

Hillarius.

Ther … now then but a Lady of Chéeſe, … of Butter, the whiche is nowe altogether …. W… ſhoulde hauehave but a little iudgement, if wée …we not thoſe great abuſes, and to iudge of thoſe falſe …. Further more, by th…ſe ſame reaſons thou maiſt iudge of the … of thoſe which doe giuegive authoritie vntounto the wiſe and … …emon to baptiſ… the younge … of vvomen… they … daunger of …

Euſebius.

… there in that Hillanius Th… … can tell thée.

Theoph….

There is firſt of all this euill, that thoſe that require ſuch baptiſme, are of an opinion that it is ſo neceſſary vntounto …, that without the ſame their childe cannot be ſaned. Wherein they doe … vntounto the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, and doe preſume … of the vertue of his holy ſpirite, and do render publicke and open witneſſe of their ſuperſtition and infidelitie. Againe, they ſinne in that that they doe diſhonour the Sacramentes, when they giuegive and beſtowe them vntounto others then vntounto thoſe vntounto whome God hath giuen the charge to adminiſter them. Wherefore they cannot fayle, either on the one ſide or on the other, but that they are greatly to bée rebuked. For if they doe adde to it neceſſitie, it appeareth already into what errour they are. If they ſaye that they doe not put to it neceſſitie, and that they doe not tye the grace of God vntounto the corruptible elementes, and exteriour miniſtrie, wherefore then doe they giuegive that authoritie vntounto woemen, without the word of God? Wherefore doo they take any other … then the ſame which is giuen them of Ieſus Chriſt? Wherefore doe they ſeperate that which God hath ioyned together? For the baptiſme & the adminiſtration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the …, and … be ſeperated, without ouer throwing the orna… which Ieſus Chriſt hath put and ſet in his Church. Nowe euen as the inſtitution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the miniſtrie of the Goſpel, ſo ought they to be Miniſters of Sacramentsadminiſtred publyckly in the Church, by thoſe ſelfe ſame vntounto whome the miniſtrie of the Goſpel is committed, and which of God and of the ſame are …lected paſtor… and miniſters. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt hath not giuen charge to baptiſe vntounto others then vntounto thoſe vntounto whom Mat. …8. d 18Matt 8he hath commaunded to preach his goſpel, & to exerciſe the Euangelicall miniſtrie in his Church. For it is expre…y 1. Cor. 14, …. 34 1. Timo. 2. d. 1… Eccleſiaſtical offices.1 Cor 14forbidden woemen to ſpeake in the Church, and to vſurpe vponupon them any eccleſiaſtical office: the which thing is not permitted but vntounto woemen, & yet not vntounto all indiffer… ly, but vntounto thoſe which are elected & lawefully ordeyned to the ſame, the which he doth ſufficiently declare, when he cōmaunded by his Apoſtle, y^• all things ſhould be done honeſtly …. Cor. 14. g. 40& in order. For if in y^• …uile adminiſtration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exerciſe y^• offices, but to the officers, d… we thinke y^• Ieſus Chriſt requireth leſſe in the eccleſiaſticall policie? and that hée will ſuffer, that the ſame that he hath ſet ſhould be ouerthrowen? Thoſe then that will allow the baptiſme of women, ought firſt to ſhew in what place God hath ordeyned it: what witneſſe or example of the Scripture they hauehave. If that is wantinge them, as I am well aſſured that it is, they ſhall bée conſtrayned to confeſſe, that that baptiſme is giuen wythout fayth, and that it is builded but vponupon mans opinion.

For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of Rom. 10, d. 17Rom 10God. If then it hauehave not the word of God, it can hauehave no faith. If it hauehave no fayth, it is then ſinne. For all that p. 242Rom. 14, d, 23Rom 14whiche is done without fayth is ſinne. We maye then Mat. 21, c. 25 Mar, 11, d, 30 Luc, 2…, …, 4Matt 21aſke them, euen as Ieſus Chriſt aſked the Phariſes, touching the baptiſme of Iohn. Baptiſt: to witte, whether it were from heauen or of men. Alſo in lyke manner that baptiſme of woemen, whether it be of God or of men? If they anſwere y^• it … … God, where are the witneſſes of the Scripture. I… they anſwere it is of men, as they ſhall … conſtrayne… to ſay, they ſhalbe compelled to confeſſe, that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vntounto God: …th that Ieſus Chriſt directeth men vntounto heauen and vntounto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his cōtrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptiſme is procéeded of any other, but of the aduerſary of God, which would aduance, women vntounto the miniſterie and eccleſiaſticall offices, from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it, for to declare themſelues in all thinges contrarye vntounto GOD. Euen ſo hath hée done vvomen prieſtes Martioniſtes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h…. 42 De conſ. diſt. 4. ca. Baptiſandi, & conſtat. Mul…er. E… con…. Car… … 30. q. 3. Super quis. Vnde verſus ex Chanſ. de Sacra. Baptizat. laicus, multer ſi mors t…meatur. Eſt tamen officium ſolum modo preſbyterorum. Mortis in periculo ſufficit omnis homo.amonge the Pa…ms, which hauehave vſed woemen Prieſtes: And amonge the heretickes Martioniſtes, who with their maſter Martion, hauehave permitted woemen to baptyſe, as Epiphanius wytneſſeth. Beholde the examples & witneſſes which you may hauehave, for your baptiſme of women.

Euſebius.

I doe agrée vntounto all that whiche thou ſayeſt, as touching the publyke office, and hauinge no neceſſytie. For the Councells, Canons and auncient Doctours, doe not ſaye much leſſe, but doe witneſſe playnelye, that it is not lawfull for anye perſon to baptiſe, but vntounto the Miniſters of the Church, as the Biſhoppes and Prieſtes doe. But they doe vnderſtande the ſame, when there is no extraordinarye neceſſitie, and daunger of death. For in ſuch caſe they doe diſpence and permit to doe it, not onelyonly vntounto lay men and handycrafts men, but in like mann…r …nto women.

Theophilus.

Wée doe not diſpute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath cōmaunded. I finde no neceſſitie, but whē God giueth vsus y^• means, & that ther may be falt in vsus. Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme th…ſelues with y^• authoritie of men, in this matter, yet wée will proue that the … for v…. For firſt of all, … i… … that …er Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd …to … and baptiſe, Wherefore ſainct Auguſt… …ath … … … …ly of the woeman, but of the pri…te and p…ticul…r man, to witte, whether hée do… … i… … i… … of neceſ… To the whi…h …é… … the rather for to … it th… … the …eaſ…, D… c…ſ. diſt. 4. in neceſ…tate Auguſt. contr. parm…. li. 2. c…. 13.wi…e it is a thing … that … … …ot … that it is lawfull, but confe…eth … that there … … certeyne fault, although that …ée made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happen…th … …to the good Mariners, who through the …iol…c…s … the … are conſtrayned to … from their right … and to followe whether the tempeſtes and windes will driue and cary them. There …s no doubte, that … from the time of Sain…t Auguſtine, that errour and cuſtome was not any thing at all receyued. Wherefore Sainct Auguſtine …rſt not altogether condempne it. No more alſo durſt hée …o allowe it, nor altogether excuſe it o… … Yet neuertheleſſe, if wée doe followe the rule of Ieſus Chriſte, that will put vsus …ut of all doub…e. Althoughe that wée yet hauehave on our ſide, the fourth Councell of Africa, whiche hath forbidden the ſame, without any exception. The …ouncel of Africa. C…nc. Carth. 4. C…. 100.It is moſt true, that in the …e…ré…s …f Gra…ian, that Canon is alledged, but not accordinge to the truth: as it is written in the booke of Councells. For hée addeth to it the exception, whiche is not in the true oryginall.

Hillarius.

Althoughe that …here w…re none but the witneſſes of the Prieſtes, they doe ſufficientlye declare that it is euill. For when one bringeth the …hildren to …ée baptiſed, they doe demaunde: is there any thinge but good? They demaund the ſame, for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptiſed by the woem…n. If it hath not bene baptiſed, th… aunſwere, that all is well or there is nothinge but good. It followeth then that p. 243th…re was an euill when the childe was baptiſed by them.

Euſebius.

They d… not vnderſtand it ſo as thou takeſt it.

Hillarius.

I beléeue thée well, and I doubt not but that God will make th…m ſpeake, … he hath made Ca…p…es to prophecie, without vnderſtanding themſelues.

Euſebius.

For that thou … thy ſelfe ſo much, that we hauehave no witnes of the Scripture, how wilt thou the… The example of Zipphora. Exo. 4. f. 25.Exod 4excuſe Zipphora, the wi…e of Moſes, who circumciſed hir ſonne Eleaſer, in Moſes own preſence, how hath then Moſes pe…itte… the ſame?

Theophilus.

The example is not like, but rather againſt thée, then for thée. For firſt, thou ſéeſt that Moſes did not eſtéeme the circumciſion ſo neceſſary, as you eſtéeme the baptiſme: ſith that he made ſo ſmall accompt to circumciſe his …onne, although that he had more expreſſe commaundement, th… we hauehave of baptiſme: Furthermore, notwithſtanding that that place is very obſ…ure, bicauſe that Moſes rehearſeth the hiſtory …o ſhort and briefly. Yet neuertheleſſe i… one doe examine it throughly, one ſhall not finde that that example can be better applyed, then to the …iſpi…ng of the circumciſion and of the Sa…a…e…es. For that which is written, that the Lord or his Angell, came before him and aſſalted him, minding to kill him. … ently declareth that the Lord was ang…, bicauſe that Moſes, notwithſtandinge that he had the …e and the occaſion to circumciſe his ſonne, hath not done ſuch diligence as he ought to hauehave done. Wherefore the Lord puniſhed him. But as ſoone as the childe was circumciſed, he was deliuered from that daunger, and the Lord did not purſue him anye more: But there is an other reaſon, when the Infantes doe dye, and that there is no negligence, nor default in the parentes. As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumciſe, & not Moſes, we muſt conſider that then Moſes coulde not doe that, bicauſe that he was preſſed and grieued by the hande of God, who would hauehave killed him. Wherefore, for to ſaue his lyfe, Zipphora laide to hi… … For none other coulde hauehave done it but ſhée.

Euſebius.

Nowe thou art compelled to confeſſe that which I demaund. For thou wilt excuſe Zipphora bycauſ… of the neceſſitie whiche conſtrained hir: no more alſo doe wée allow the baptiſme adminiſtred by woemen and others then the miniſters of the Church: but in caſe of neceſſitie.

Theophilus.

I hauehave yet other reaſons againſt thée. The firſt is that wée doe not reade, that God hath giuen expreſſe commaundement vntounto men onelyonly, to circumciſe, as he hath do…e of baptiſing. The ſecond is, there was not th… …ny forme of the Church, nor polici… and publike miniſtrie amonge the Medianites, and where Moſes was.

The third is, that it is lykeſt to …ée true, that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moſes hir huſbande, who feeling himſelfe ſtroke… of God, admonyſhed hir to do that for to ſaue his life. For otherwiſe, how could …he hauehave vnderſtanded and knowen, that hir huſ…ande had bene in daunger of death, for ſuch cauſe, if hée had not aduertyſed hir of it. Although that Moſes writinge briefly hath not re…rſed all thoſe thinges at large. But he hath made them ſufficiently to bée vnderſtanded. Nowe if Moſes did commaunde hir, ſhe did it not without the worde of God: Sith that Moſes was a Prophet: yea him, by whome God addreſſed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Iſrael. Furthermore, although that it be ſo, yet that example is not ſufficient, for to builde the baptiſme of woemen, againſt the ordinance of Ieſus Chriſt: For we ought The examples of the Saincts ought not to be all dravven into a generall conſequencenot to draw into a generall conſequence, the perticuler examples of Sainctes: and that which by a ſinguler priuiledge and diſpenſation hath bene ſomtime permitted them, if we hauehave no expreſſe commaundement as they hauehave had: or the ſame occaſions and circumſtaunces. Beſides that, that there be ſome examples of holy men, the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes, notwithſtanding that it rehearſeth them, or if it doe allowe them in thoſe there, p. 244it followeth not therefore, that it doth the like in vsus, if we hauehave not a certeine vocation and calling of God.