The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (1 of 3)

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (1 of 3)

p. 211¶THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels.

EVſebius. For as much as Thomas hath reſerued for himſelfe one part of this day for to make his Narration, and of hys owne accord hath graunted vntounto mée the greateſt parte, therefore it is good reaſon that hée do begin firſt. Wherfore I giuegive him the choice, whether he will go before or behinde.

Hillarius.

I deſire for my part, that Thomas doe rehearſe firſt the cauſe of his enterpriſe and voyage. For I doe much deſire to heare it and vnderſtand it.

Thomas.

Thou oughteſt not to be much deſirous of it. For thou canſt not heare of me any thing which is much worth. Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace, if you wyll. For I feare greatly that after that you hauehave heard mée, you will mocke me, chiefly Hillarius, who is ſo expert in that occupation. I beléeue that it is the chiefeſt cauſe, wherefore hée ſo greatlye deſireth to heare my wordes. Wherefore I thinke it beſt Euſebius, that thou doe procéede-forwarde and proſecute thy intent. For the matters that you hauehave to intreat off, are better then thoſe which you can heare of mée: And in hearing you, I may profite, but in ſpeaking, I can but ſpende the time, the which you wil employ and beſt nine to a better ende. And therefore beginne, and after if there be any ſpare time, I will ſée what I ſhal do.

Theophilus.

I beleeue that we ſhal hauehave time inough. Feare not thē to begin, ſith y^• thou haſt alredy told vsus, y^• thou wilt not be ouer long. But thou wilt make vsus finde the thing good. For that cauſe doſt louelove to be entreated ſo much, knowing that the more thou refuſeſt to tel vntounto vsus that we demaund, ſo much y^• more we deſire it.

Thomas.

I hauehave regard vntounto another thing. I conſider y^• which Salomon hath writtē, ſaying: if a foole do hold his tongue, he ſhalbe counted wiſe. For he compareth Pro. 17. d. 28 Iudgement by the vvorld.Prov 17man, to a loohing glaſſe, or a bell y^• which one doth know by the ſounde; whether they be broken or whole. So in like manner may one iudge of man, in hearing him ſpeake, whether hée be wiſe or fooliſh. For one perceiueth the ſpirit of man, in his word. As his figure in a glaſſe: and one may beholde in the ſame, the nature of him, as the complection of the body in his water & vrine, by which it is eaſie to iudge, what drogues hee hath in the ſhoppe of his braine.

Hillarius.

Thou wilt that one ſhould ſaye of thée, that which a Philoſopher once ſaid of a certeine man y^• he did ſée ſit at a banket, which ſpake not a word, although y^• all the others did put foorth certeine queſtiōs, & gaue vntounto him matter inough for to ſpeake in his courſe. If that man (ſaith Apothegma.he) be a wiſe man, hée playeth the part of a foole: if he be a foole, he playeth the part of a wiſe man.

Thomas.

I cannot well vnderſtand that matter. For me thinketh that it conteineth & implyeth contradiction.

Hillarius.

He giueth therby to vnderſtand, that euen as too much ſpeaking apperteineth vntounto fooles & ideots, ſo alwaies to holde ones peace, agréeth to beaſts, and not vntounto men. Wherfore ther muſt be a meane kept in all things.

Thomas.

That is the ſame to the which I pretend: And I doe thinke, that I ſpeak ynough according to the place & men with whom I am. And bicauſe y^• I am not wiſe, for to ſpeak wel. I wil at the leaſtwiſe thorow ſilence thorow ſilence counterfet the wiſe. For it is cōmonly ſaid: it is euil to ſpeak Latin before learned men. When Cōmon pro…erbI am with ignoraunt men as my ſelfe, I doe ſpeake as a Doctor, eſpecially if I thinke that I hauehave the moytie of a dragme or ſcruple more of knowledge then they. But when I come before you, I doe looſe by and by all my babling.

Hillarius.

Thou wouldeſt héere very gladly make an ende. But thou muſt firſt declare vntounto vsus that thou haſt promiſed.

Thomas.

Sith y^• thou vrgeſt mée ſo much, thou ſhalt hauehave it: But if thou doeſt mocke mée, bée aſſured, that I ſhall hauehave as good matter agaynſt thee, for to render vntounto thée the lyke. For thou thinckeſt to heare ſome p. 212greate ſecrete, and thou ſhalt finde thy ſelfe deceiued: doeſt thou not know mée yet, Hillarius? Firſt of all, thou art not ignoraunt, how that I was neuer verye wiſe. Thou mayſt then preſume, what merchaundiſe I can bring foorthe of my ſhoppe, and what Doctor contemplatiue I may bée. Thou knoweſt verye well that I am called

Thomas.

Now if I be Thomas of name, yet I approch nerer of the nature of my godfather, of whom I do beare the name then of his name. If hée hath ben incredule The incredulity of Thomas Iohn. 20. ….John 20and vnbleeuinge, inſomuch that hée woulde not beleeue the reſurrection of Ieſus Chriſt, excepte hée dyd ſee him, himſelfe, with his owne eyes, and touche him wyth his hand, and except he did put his fingers in his wounds. So for my parte, I doe doubt, and know not well whome I may beleeue. But I hauehave greater occaſion to doubte, then Sainct Thomas had. For hée hearde the promyſe which Ieſus Chriſt made of his reſurrection, of whiche hée had not ſo…iuſt an occaſion to doubte, ſith that hée had already ſo many times founde by experience Ieſus Chriſt true in all his words, and that he had all his fellowes and companions, who with one accorde did tell him, howe hée appeared vntounto them after his reſurrection, and that they had ſeene him and touched him. But I, whiche am but a poore ideot and very ignoraunt, what ought I to thinke, and whereto ought I to ſtaye my ſelfe, when I conſider the diuerſitie of opinions whiche is amonge men, touchinge the religyon, and namely touching the eſtate of the dead, and of the infernall and celeſtiall regyons and habitations, yea, amongeſt the moſte ſage and wiſeſt? As I hauehave proued in theſe dayes amonge your ſelues, who are of as contrarye a ſentence the one from the other, as the fire and the water. Therefore hauehave I taken in hande the voiage of Sainct Petricke, in which S. Patricks welsas men ſay, one ſhall ſee the eſtate of all the dead: the tormentes of the dampned which are in bell, and of the ſoules detayned and kepte in Purgatorye and in the Limbe, and in lyke manner the ioyes of Paradiſe. Therefore I doe truſt and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all thoſe things, and that after I hauehave ſéene them I ſhal be out of all doubt. For I know no more to ſeeke any other remedies. Yet neuertheleſſe, ſithence that I hauehave beard theſe matters debated more amply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did before, I hauehave very much loſt my fantaſie. You doe well remember, that I ſayd, that after that I had ſpoken to the holy father, who hath ſo well diſciffered that matter, that peraduēture I ſhould hauehave gained my voiage, without going vntounto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it ſhorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will viſite this day all thoſe chambers & internall habitations without mouing our ſelues from hence, and before that we depart, if that the one and the other of you doe that, whereof you brag and vaunt your ſelues you will. For you hauehave promiſed on eueryevery of your partes, that you will hauehave recourſe to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel content, The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Pſa. 119. c. 05.Ps 119to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy ſelfe aſſured, Dauid, who ſpeaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, ſaying. Thy woord O Lorde is a lanterne vntounto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vntounto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cauſe Aeneas to bee lead of Syble vntounto his father Anchiſes, but it will lead thée vntounto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the ſame thou ſhalt heare ſpeake, for to put thee out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is alſo an other point, that when we ſhal hauehave ended The gates of dreames.the voiage, we ſhal not go by y^e gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we hauehave heard dreame ſo wel, as all ſuch as hee is doe, which repoſe & reſt themſelues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath ſuch vertue, that whoſoeuer reſteth vponupon it ſhall neuer dreame nor raue: or it bee dreame, hee goeth not p. 213by the gates of Iuory, but by y^e horne gate, which is cleere The gate of Iuory & horne& through the which one may ſée as with the eyes: in ſuch ſort that ſuch dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe ſée with their eyes: as it appeareth in thoſe of Ioſeph and Daniel. But he that will lye or reſt himſelfe in any other bed, ſhall neuer ceaſe to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the erring Theologiſtersaſtray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as y^e bones are, Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the ſame, as we doe ſée by experience in our Theologians and Sophiſts whiche are ſo obſcure and darke that one can ſée nothing at all. For after y^e they hauehave well banketed & moiſted thēſelues w^t that good Theological wine, they hauehave y^e ſpirite of wine y^t which the great God Bacchus hath inſpired them, & maketh The ſpirite of Bacchusthem to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to ſaye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which cauſeth ſo many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & ſo many fumes and heates to aſcende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the loweſt parts of hell and the ſeate of Lucifer. Afterwards they returne beeing rauiſhed in their Poetical furor & madneſſe, as if they were departed all newly and freſhe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of chewing and mouing their chawes and cockſcombes, as the Organ bellowes, ſo doe they go foorth by the very ſame gate.

Thomas.

Let vsus then go in by the other gate, and in ſuche ſobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we ſaw thē w^c our eyes. But who ſhal begin to declare & ſhew it vntounto vsus? mee thinketh y^t Euſebius maketh himſelf ready. Begin then to knocke, & cauſe it to be opened vntounto vsus?

Euſebius.

I will enter firſt by the olde teſtament.

Hillarius.

But take good heede you lead vsus not awrye, and to take the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go aſtray, we will direct and leade thee into it againe.

Euſebius.

But I will direct and leade you well. GiueGive …eare then vntounto that which is written of I…das Machabens, duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page p. 211duplicate page duplicate page p. 212duplicate page Therefore I t… truſt and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all thoſe things, and that after I hauehave ſéene them I ſhall be out of all doubt. For I know no more to ſéeke any other, remedies. Yet neuertheleſſe, ſithence that I hauehave beard theſe matters debated more emply and cléerely and better declared, then euer I did before, I hauehave very much loſt my fantaſie. You doe well remember, that I ſayd, that after that I had ſpoken to the holy father, who hath ſo well diſciffered that matter, that paraduēture I ſhould hauehave gained my voiage, without going vntounto him, I feare very much that before that I depart from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it ſhorter. For I hope through the helpe of God, that we will viſite this day all thoſe chambers & infernall habitations without mouing our ſelues from hence, and before that we depart, if that the one and the other of you doe that, whereof you brag and baunt your ſelues you will. For you hauehave promiſed on eueryevery of your partes, that you will hauehave recourſe to none other Iudge, but to the pure word of God. And as for mée, if you take it for the Iudge, I am wel content The vvorde of God iudge and guide Aene. 6. Pſa. 119. c. 105.Ps 119to take it for my guide: And I am certeine that it will guide mée better, then Cyble guided Aeneas.

Theophilus.

If thou doe not hold thy ſelfe aſſured, Dauid, who ſpeaketh by experiēce, can certify thée, ſaying. Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vntounto my féete. That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vntounto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cauſe Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vntounto his father Anchiſes, but it will lead thée vntounto the liuing God, thy immortall father, whome by the ſame thou ſhalt heare ſpeaks, for to put thée out of all doubt.

Hillarius.

Ther is alſo an other point, that when we ſhal hauehave ended The gates of dreames.the voiage, we ſhal not go by y^e gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we hauehave heard dreame ſo wel, as all ſuch as hée is doe, which repoſe & reſt themſelues in any other bed, then vppon the pure word of God. For it hath ſuch vortue, that whoſoeuer reſſeth vponupon it ſhall neuer dreame nor rane: or if hée dreame, hée goeth not p. 213by the gates of Iuory, but by y^e horne gate, which is cléere The gate of Iuory & herne& through the which one may ſée as with the eyes: in ſuch ſort that ſuch dreames are more certeine, then that which others doe ſée with their eyes: as it appeareth in thoſe of Ioſeph and Daniel. But he that will lye or reſt himſelfe in any other bed, ſhall neuer ceaſe to dreame and wander The dreames of the Saints & of the e…ring Theologiſtersaſtray out of the waye: And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory, which is thicke as y^e bones are. Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the ſame, as we doe ſée by experience in our Theologians and Sophiſts whiche are ſo obſcure and darke that one can ſée nothing at all. For after y^e they hauehave well banketed & moiſted thēſelues w^c that good Theological wine, they hauehave y^e ſpirite of wine y^e which the great God Bacchus hath inſpired them, & maketh The ſpirite of Bacchusthem to enter by the gate of Iuory, that is to ſaye, betwéene the téeth and chawes, which cauſeth ſo many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine, & ſo many fumes and heates to aſcende and mount into the braine, that they do dreame more déeper, then the loweſt parte of hell and the ſeate of Lucifer. Afterwards they refurne béeing rauiſhed in their Poetical furor & madneſſe, as if they were departed all newly and freſhe. But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory, by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockſcombes, as the Organ bellowes, ſo doe they go foorth by the very ſame gate.

Thomas.

Let vsus then go in by the other gate, and in ſuch fobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we ſaw thē w^c our eyes. But who ſhal begin to declare & ſhew it vntounto vsus? mée thinketh y^e Euſebius maketh himſelf ready. Begin then to knocke, & cauſe it to be opened vntounto vsus?

Euſebius.

I will enter firſt by the olde teſtament.

Hillarius.

But take good héede you lead vsus not awrye, and totake the one for the other: For if thou doe erre and go aſtray, we will direct and leave thée into it againe.

Euſebius.

Obiection.But I will direct and leade you well. 2. Mach. 12. g. 43.2 Macc 12GiueGive eare then vntounto that which is written of Iudas Machabens, who ſent to Hieruſalem two thouſande Dragmas of ſtluer, for to be offered for a ſacrifice for the ſinnes of thoſe which were dead. In which place he did well and right. For he had ſome conſideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time. For if hee had not thought that thoſe which were ſlaine did yet liue, it had bene ſuper fluous and vaine to make any vow or ſacrifice for them that were dead. But for ſo much as he ſaw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God, are in good reſt & ioy, he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling, to doe the ſame for thoſe which were ſlaine, that the offence might be forgiuen. Is it poſſible to finde a terte more cléerer? Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus ſend ſuch a ſumme of Siluer y^e number of two thouſand Dragmas The value of the thouſand Dragmaswhich are worth a thouſand and two hundreth Crownes, if wee accompt them after our money, if he had not bene certeine, that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead?

Theophilus.

Thou doeſt here open vntounto vsus a goodlye field to diſpute off, and wil eng…der to vsus many queſtions, the which I will propound vntounto thée, and we will declare them at large one after an other, and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can ſerue you, for to proue Purgatory. I doe then firſt demaunde of thée in what reputation thou haſt that bookes of the Macchabees? The authoritie of the bookes of the Machabces.and whether thou do holde them for canonicall, or Apocripha?

Euſebius.

I hold it but for ſuch as it is, that is to ſay, holy, Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church. For is it not conteined in the Bible?

Theopilus

I do not benie but that it is faſtened & ſowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible, but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical, & of ſuch Authority as the others which we hauehave receiued of the Hebrews, which alwayes hauehave bene receiued & allowed of all the catholicke Churche, without any contradiction.

p. 214Euſebius.

I am not now abaſhed, though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors, ſith that you are ſo ſhameleſſe, that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture. I doe know by experience that you muſt hauehave a Bible made according or after your owne pleaſure. For you are like vntounto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy ſcriptures, but the places whiche they thinke moſte méete and proper for to giuegive colour to their herefies: and do reiect all the other, as vnworthy of the ſpirite of God. Is not that to great arrogancie, to make the ſpirite of God, & his word to be ſubiect vntounto your iudgement? Thou mayſt wel perceiue Thomas, that now they doe féele themſelues muche gréeued, when they are conſtrayned to refuſe the Iudge, vntounto whom they hauehave appealled: and which in ſtéede to be iudged of him, they would iudge him.

Theophilus.

Stay a while

Euſebius.

Thou haſt not yet gotten or obteyned thy ſute. Thinke not that wée are become Papiſtes, ſithens that we hauehave ſpoken vntounto thée: And that we woulde attribute vntounto our ſelues authority, power and iudgment aboue the ſpirite of God, as he doth: wée doe leaue that office vntounto Antechriſt, to whom alone it apperteineth. We hauehave not vſed to reproue one onelye ſtllable of the holy Scriptures: But if we diſcerne & put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical & thoſe that are Apocripha, thou oughteſt not to accuſe vsus Books canonical & Apocripha.therefore, except thou doe, by that ſame reaſon, render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church, chiefely Sainct Hierome, and in like manner your decrées and Canons: whiche doe ſeperate thoſe that are Canonicall from thoſe that bée Apocrapha, amongſt whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees.

Euſebius.

I confeſſe that amonge the Iewes, it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue: but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church. Wherefore I conclude, that thoſe that beny, that they are not canonicall, are not the ſonnes of the Church; but baſtardes of the Sinagogue.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt at the leaſte kepte that ſame of …ccius, Behold one ſhot of his Canons.

Theophilus.

If it be ſo, Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals, in that prolegne The iudgement of ſaint Hierom touching the bookes of the Machabee…. Hiero. Pauli.in whiche be hath recited them all in order? doeſt thou thinke that he would hauehave rather omitted theſe here, then the other? And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus, which he hath ſet before the bookes of the Kings, both hee not make expreſſe mention of thoſe bookes amenge the Apocriphas? and principally of the ſecond out of y^• which the place by thée alleged is taken? For hee ſaith that hée hath founde the firſt written in Hebrew: But not the ſeconde, the which hath bene onelyonly written in Greeke. The whiche thing, as he ſaith, may proue it ſelfe by the p…raſe and manner of the ſpeaking, the which hée vſed. To the which agréeth well that which hee writing againſt the Pelagians, nameth Ioſeph for the author of the hiſtorye Ioſeph y^• anthor of the bookes of the Machabeesof the Machabees, vnderſtanding that by him it was written. Then if by the teſtimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome, that hiſtory hath bene written by Ioſeph, b…ée ought not to eſtéeme it to be of more greater authority, thē the other bookes of Ioſeph, the which we do reade … no receiue, The bookes of Ioſeph.as hiſtories, very profitable: But a greate deale wantoth, that we ſhould attribute vntounto them ſo much authoritie, as vntounto thoſe, the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt, to be y^• body of y^• holy Scripture. Therefore ſaid S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouer…es of Salomon: The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees, but ſhee receineth them net among the Canonical.

Euſebius.

Then wherfore hath Sainct Auguſtin written, De ciui. Dei. li 18. ca. 36that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall?

Theophilus.

Conſider well how he hath writen in that ſame place which thou alledgeſt, ſpeaking of the number p. 215of the times, which hauehave bene ſithence the returning from Babilon, vntill the comming of Ieſus Chriſte. Did he not write, that the account and number of them, are not found in the holy Scriptures, which are called Canonicall but in the other, among which are the bookes of y^e Machabees? Doeſt thou not ſée and perceiue that he ſeperateth thoſe bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures.

Euſebius.

Wherfore doſt thou cut off fthe tayle? why doſt thou not adde, that which followeth afterwardes? The whiche (ſayth hée) the Iewes hold not for Canonical, but the Church doth.

Theophilus.

But doth he not adde by and by the reaſon wherefore, the which ſerueth to my purpoſe?

Euſebius.

Hee ſayth, that it is bicauſe of the vehement Martirs beſcre the comming of Ieſus Chriſtand merueilous paſſions of ſome Martirs, whiche hauehave fought euen vntounto deathe, for the lawe of GOD, before that Ieſus Chriſt came in the fleſhe and ſuffred griefes and horrible torments.

Theophilus.

He vnderſtandeth by thoſe Martirs, the ſeuen brothers of the Machabees, The Machabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus2 Macc 7with their mother, who loued rather that Antiochus ſhoulde diſmember and torment them cruelly, then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of God. It is eaſie to vnderſtand by thoſe words, that the Church hath not receiued thoſe bookes, in ſuche authoritie, as thoſe which hauehave bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical & Apoſtolical church, nor to be ſufficient, for to allow & confirme, or for to builde any doctrine, which ought to be holē for an article of faith, & for to vanquiſh the hereticks: But only in ſuch ſtéede, as we hauehave at this day the eccleſiaſtical hiſtories, & legends of martirs: not a heape of fooliſh & fabulous legends, made by a heape of dreaming The legends of Saints Diſt. 15. ca. ſancta.and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks, as are the liues of the fathers, the golden legend, and other like, more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras, Orſon, & Valentine, the erring kinghtes, Mandeuill, or the true narrations of Lutian, and others like, made for pleaſure, then among the Eccleſiaſticall hiſtories. But they hauehave bene in ſuche reputacion among the wiſe men, as the bookes of Ioſephus, Euſebius, Sozomenus, Theodoritus, Socrates, and ſuch other whiche hauehave written the Eccleſiaſticall hiſtories, and the liues of Martyrs, for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche, as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples: But not that they are of ſuch authoritie, that they are ſufficient for to ſette foorth anye newe doctrine, of whiche wee hauehave no certeine witnes in the Apooſtlicall doctrine. And that it is euen ſo as I doe ſaye, I will not proue it by anye other witnes, then by the ſame whiche thou bringeſt foorth againſt mee: That is to ſaye, Sainct Auguſtin, who hath written in an other place after this manner, ſaying: The Iewes hauehave not the ſcripture of the Machabees, as the Law, the Prophets and Pſalmes, to the which the Lord Ieſus rendereth witnes, as vntounto this witneſſes, ſaying: All muſt bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Luc. 24. g. 44.Luke 24Law of Moſes and in the Prophets nad in the Pſalmes. But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche, not without profit, if one doe reade and marke it ſoberly. Doth hée not euidentlye declare by thoſe wordes, howe muche the authoritie of the ſame is abaſed in compariſon of the others, the whiche Ieſus Chriſte taketh for witneſſes? Aſmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke, whiche contayneth the expoſition of the Créede, and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian. Hée plainelye ſheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche. Wherefore it is almoſte folly to ſtriue and fight ſo long time, if it were not, but that our aduerſaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue, that it is of the holy Scripture, and that we doe deny it. After that ſorte hauehave bene allowed The Canons the Apoſtles. Dſti. 16. caſex againta. & can canoner propter.ſome bookes, called the Canons o… the Apoſtles, the whiche ſome among the auncients, and among the Popes and counſels hauehave bene holden ſome for Canonical, and others for Apocripha, bicauſe that they doe ſerue in many thinges confirmable to the Apoſtolicall doctirne: but they were not bound vntounto them, as vntounto the holy Scriptures, p. 216whiche they cannot reiect, as they hauehave done often times, when they hauehave found, any Canon, whiche ſéemeth much to differ from the Apoſtolicall doctirne. Euen ſo maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees. We may wel draw out of them examples, for to exhorte the faithfull vntounto paclence, conſtancy and Martirdome, propounding and declaring vntounto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother, with hir ſeuen ſonnes, who ſtoode ſo conſtantlye vntounto death, for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode, who had not yet neuertheleſſe ſuch an occaſion to doe that, as we, whiche hauehave more ſure and certeine witneſſes of the reſurrection and of examples more euident, aſwell in Ieſus Chriſt as in his Apoſtles & dyſciples, then they had, And ſo ſaid S. Augſtyne. But it followeth not therfore that Diſt. 16. ca. … none. Gloſ. at…touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion, they ſhould be with equall authority with the others. And therefore the gloſe made vponupon the decrée recyſith them among the Apocripha.

Euſebius.

I woulde gladly that thou wouldeſt declare vntounto mée a litle more plainely, what thou vnderſtandeſt by the Canonicals and Apocripha.

Theophilus.

I doe call canonicall, all the bookes of The e…onicall bookes.the new teſtament the whiche wée hauehave: and of the doe, in like manner, all thoſe whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe. Bible, the which we hauehave receiued of the holy Prophets and true ſeruaunts of God, and whoſe authors are certeine and knowen. And we doe cal them Canonicall, which ſignifieth aſmuch as rules, bicauſe they are of an infallible veritie, & a certeine & ſure rule whiche is giuen vsus of god, for to ruel & examine al other doctrine, & to proue the ſpirites whelter they are of God, and for to liue according to the ſame.

Euſebius.

And what vnderſtandeſt thou by Apocripha? Apocrypha.Theophilus. Apocripha, ſignifieth a thing hid, ſecret or obſcure, which hath no ſure or certein author: or which is not alowed as are y^• bokes, to y^• title is applies & made at, which are not ſufferable, but inſomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vntounto that of Canonicalls, the which ought to be ruled by them. And they hauehave no firme authoritie but that which thoſe doe giuegive vntounto it. For in ſteede that we may take a ſure foundation and buylding, vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls, we cannot doe it in thoſe heere, if they hauehave not alreadye their foundation on the other. They hauehave not bene called Apocrypha, bicauſe that it was not lawfull to hauehave them in ones lybrary, and to reade them with iudgement, for ones profite. For that was not forbidden. But hauehave taken that name, bicauſe that they were not of ſuch authoritie, y^e one ſhould holde them for a ſure and infallible doctrine of the church of God: And they were not red and expounded openly in the ſame, and with ſuch authoritie, as thoſe which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God, to the which we are bounde to beléeue, and to ſubmit & put our iudgement vnderunder them, not to eleuate it aboue them, or to iudge them by the other bookes, which ought to bée ſubiect vntounto them.

Euſebius.

And wherefore hauehave ſome of them more that authoritie then the others?

Theophilus.

Bicauſe that of the one we are cert eyne, which are the pure wordes of God: but not of the others, but to the contrary.

Euſebius.

By what meanes? Is it not bicauſe the Churche hath allowed them and not the other. Now ſith that their authority dependeth of the authority of y^e church if ſhee doe receine theſe here as the Canonicall, & maketh them of equall authoritie, wherefore ſhall not they bée in the ſame degree?

Theophilus.

I doe beleeue that thou doeſt thinke that the church hath accuſtomed to legittimate the bookes, as VntoUnto whom the iudgement of the ſcriptures do appertcinethe Pope doth legittimate his baſtardes. The Popiſhe church may well take in, hande that, but that is not the propertie of y^e of Ieſus Chriſt. And although ſhe woulde Legitimation.legittimate them, yet they muſt be takē as baſtards legitimated by the Pope, which cannot be notwithſtanding borne in lawfull maryage, but do abide alwayes baſtards p. 217and ſonnes of fornication, How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother, or hir Father. Howe can the The authoritie of the Church.Church giuegive authoritie to the woorde of God, who of the ſame receyueth hirs, and of the ſame is begotten and borne? Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightneſſe? Doth hée receiue it of men, whome hee illuminateth and lighteth?

Euſebius.

No. But on the contrary men of it.

Theophilus.

Is it cléere and ſhining bicauſe that men doe iudge and confeſſe it to bée ſuch?

Euſebius.

No. But bicauſe that it is ſuch, the men that doe ſée it, and hauehave the experience are conſtrayned to acknowledge and confeſſe it to bée ſuch.

Theophilus.

Thou meaneſt notwithſtandinge that the Sunne ſhould bee cleere and giuegive light, bicauſe that men doe thincke it to bée ſo.

Euſebius.

Thou doeſt mée wrong to impute vntounto mée that which I neuer ſpake, but altogether contrarye.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt ſayd it, by other wordes. Whereby thou doeſt not perceiue thy ſelfe. For when The authoritie of the ſcripturethou ſaydeſt, that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church, thou ſayeſt that men do giuegive lyght and cléereneſſe vntounto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytneſſe, the word of the Lord is pure & cléere, that is y^e light which giueth Pſa. 19 c 9Ps 19light vntounto the eyes, & giueth wiſdome vntounto babes. It is then certeyne and true, not bycauſe the Church iudgeth it ſuch, but it iudgeth it ſuch bicauſe that it is ſo, and cannot iudge of it otherwyſe, no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne, of whiche the blinde perſon is not capable. Wherefore hée cannot iudge, no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God, nor allowe it. Then thou mayſt by this vnderſtand, that the certeynetye, veritie and firmeneſſe doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement, but vppon the holy Ghoſt, and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it ſelfe, and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies. For the ſheepe doe heare and vnderſtand the ſhepeartes voyce, but not that of the ſtraungers. And all that that the Prophetes hauehave forſhewed and taught, the Apoſtles in lyke manner, hauehave bene verified and authoryſed by the vertue of him which hath ſpoken in them, inſomuch that all the worlde cannot reſiſt it. Nowe wée cannot ſaye ſhe lyke of the bookes of the Machabees, chiefely of the ſeconde. Firſt, for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe, and that the ſtile of the ſame witneſſeth The ſeconde bookes of the Machabees.cléerely, that it was firſt made in Greeke, and was not tranſlated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue. We may take it for a certeyne rule, that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet, or man worthy to bee accompted for ſuch a one. For the Prophets hauehave wrytten in their proper language, to wit, Hebrew, or in the language of the The ſangnage of the ProphetsChaldees, ſithence the time of the captinite of Babilon. Furthermore, it is eaſye to knowe, that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Iſraell into Hieruſalem, and the age of Eſdras, Nehemias, The laſt Prophets.Aggeus, Zachary & Malachy, ſithence which, wée do not read, that the people of God hauehave had any Prophet that hath written any thing: nor other bookes, of a certeyne and autenticke authour. Wherefore by. good ryght, this héere is accompted for Apocrypha. And although there were no other reaſon, for to diminiſhe his authoritye, but the excuſe whiche the authour of the ſayde booke made in the ende of his worke, that ought to ſuffice thée. Reade the laſte Chapter and thou ſhalte ſée it by experience. If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the ſpiryte of GOD, that all that whiche hée hath written, procéeded from him, as the Prophetes and Apoſtles hauehave done, wherefore ſhoulde hée excuſe himſelfe both of the ſtile, of The authoritie of the Prophets and Apoſtlesthe manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght hauehave committed? If hée had bene alwayes inſpired with the ſame ſpirite, by which the Prophets and Apoſtles hauehave ſpoken, he would hauehave ſpoken ſurely and in the authority of God, as thoſe who without excuſinge themſelues hauehave p. 218ſayd: The Lorde hath ſpoken it. And Sainct Paul with what authoritie ſpeaketh hee affirming that the Goſpell whiche hee hath preached was ſo certeyne, that although Gal. 1, b. 8Gal 1an Angell came downe from heauen, for to bringe anye other vntounto you, he ought not to bée receiued, but accurſed. Learne then Euſebius to diſcerne the bookes of the holye Scripture, form the others: and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall, that ſeconde booke of the Machabees, but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected, and of which it might ſerue the Church, for declaration of the Scriptures, bicauſe of the hiſtories conteyned in the ſame, whiche doe giuegive a certeine openinge, for the intelligence of the antiquitie, as the hiſtories of Ioſeph doe. Yet neuertheleſſe if one marke them well, it ſhall be eaſle to iudge, that the firſt and the ſecond are not all of one authour: not onelyonly by the diuerſitie of the ſtile, … alſo bicauſe that in the ſecond, are reiterated ſome biſtories, and many things which already hauehave bene intreales … in the firſt, and a great deale better then they are in this. If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Teſtament, any like place vntounto that which thou haſt alledged, the argument ſhould hauehave ſome colour by the ſhewe that the other would giuegive vntounto it. But foraſmuch as it is alone, his witneſſe is not ſufficient, as it ſhoulde bée in the one of the others. For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onelyonly witneſſe as The vvſtneſſe of God.by a thouſand: where a thouſand witneſſes of men, without the ſame of God, ought not to bolde any place in the religion, But ſithence, that the ſuperſtition of the ſuffrages & prayers: for the dead hath begunne to hauehave crept into the Churche, thys booke alſo hath begunne to take greate authorytie, in ſuche ſorte that it oftener is reade and ſonge in the Popiſhe Churche, then thoſe that cont…yned more ſurer doctrine. And thu oughteſt alſo to vnderſtand, that the auncients hauehave ſometime put a difference betweene y^• Canonical, Apocrypha & Eccleſiaſticall bookes, as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded, the Creede the which ſome doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian: other that it was Ruffin. But whoſoeuer if were of them both, they are both of them very auncient, and hauehave deuyded thoſe bookes after that ſorte: Yée muſt know (ſaith he) that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall, which are not called of the auncients & of our prede…ors Canonicall, but C…leſſaſticall: as are the wiſdome of Salomon, and the other wyſedome, which is called Ieſus the ſonne of Syrach, the which booke is among the Latins, by that generall tytle called Eccleſſaſticus, by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture. The booke of Toby is of the ſame order, and of Iudith, and the bookes of the Machabees: the which they would that they ſhould bée all read in the Church, but they would not that they ſhould hauehave bene ſettle foorth, for to con…rme the authoritie of the fayth by them. The other Scriptures, they hauehave called Apocrypha: the which they woulde not that they ſhoulde be read in the Churche. Thou … ſée héere moſt playnelye, howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vntounto the Canonicall Scriptures then vntounto the Eccleſlaſticall Scriptures: and vntounto the Eccleſſaſtical more then vntounto the Apocryph…: but they hauehave not yet neuertheleſſe eſtéemed thoſe Eccleſlaſſaſtical (which they hauehave many times called apocrypha) of equall and ſuch authoritie, as the diuine scriptures: nor they hauehave called them Eccleſlaſticall for that cauſe, but bicauſe that they were in ſuch reputation, that one niyght reade and ſigne them in the Churche (the w… was not permitted in the auncient Churche) or bicauſe that theyr antiquitie or holyneſſe of their authours added vntounto them a …yttle more authoritie then vntounto the other.

Thomas.

By that accompte Euſebius then ſhall bée vnweapened of his principall ſtaffe that hée thought to hauehave.

Euſebius.

If they would after that ſort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at theyre pleaſure: p. 219it is méere folly to diſputs with them. For all thoſe which bée not to their mindes ſhall be Apocrypha.

Theophilus.

If thou wilt not be confen…ed with the reaſons by me alledged, go and plead againſt Sainct Hierome Ad Chroma. diſt 5. ca. ſācta.and your decrees. If the auncients had not vſed iudgemēt and wiſdome, how many bookes would the hereticks hauehave brought into the Church vnderunder the name of the Prophets, Apoſtles and of their Diſciples: The which they hauehave re…cſed them, following that ſame rule, which I hauehave giuen vntounto thée: as it appeareth by your decrees, which are a great rolle of them. But I wil yet do more, to the ende I leaue the… not an occaſion, to be miſcontented w^c me. I am content, by way of diſputation, to put the caſe that y^• booke ſhould be autentick & of a diuine authoritie. And although The place of the Machabees ſerueth nothing at all for Purg… …ory.it were ſo, it would ſerue thée yet neuertheleſſe nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purga…ory, & that we muſt offer for the dead, to ſuch intent, and in ſuch ſort, as you do make it, And for to declare this vntounto thée more plainly, I demaund of thée, for to begin firſt ou… matter, in what time was that made, which the hiſtory conteineth? was it before the cōming of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, or afterwards?

Euſebius.

Before.

Theophilus.

Tell me moreouer, was Purgatory before the comming of Chriſt.the Purgatorye in that time, ſuch as thou beléeueſt it is now?

Euſebius.

There is no doubt of it.

Theophilus.

Sith that it is ſo, tell mée, what ſoules went thether? For eyther it muſt bée altogether emptie and voide, or elſe it muſt be that ſome went thether, eyther thoſe of the elect & faithfull, or thoſe of the Infidels and reprobate. Now I do not thinke, that thou wilt ſay, that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate.

Euſebius.

One may ſo iudge by that which is written Luc. 16. c. 19.Luke 16of the wicked rich man.

Theophilus.

Sith then that hell was for the reprobate, it followeth then neceſſarily, that the ſoules of the elect ſhoulde goe into Purgatorye. If it hée ſo, to what ende ſerueth the Limbe? For you The Limbe.doe ſaye, that all the Patriarches, Prophetes and true faythfull, whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, were there kepte and deteyned, and they coulde not goe into Paradiſe, vntyll ſuch time as Ieſus Chriſte had ſatyſfied for them. Wherefore I doe conclude, accordinge to your doctrine, eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge, or elſe that the one of them two was voyde and ſuperſ…uous: or that there was but one, or for to ſpeake the truth, neyther the one nor the other. For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyſe made vntounto Abraham, what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye? bad they not Purgatorye ſuffycient inough in the Limbes? Were they not ſufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradiſe, and depryued from the ioyes thereoff, and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD, as you doe affirme? For what more greater torment can a faythfull man hauehave then to bee depryued from ſuche a good thinge? That is not onelyonly a Purgatorye, but a very hell.

Euſebius.

I do know, that in hearing thée ſpeake, that thou, which wouldeſt teache others, art yet in greater ignoraunce, and that thou vnderſtandeſt verye euyll this matter. The Limbe then, was for thoſe which were in ſuch eſtate, as thoſe are nowe, which hauehave finiſhed their penaunce, and hauehave made entire and whole ſatiſfaction for their ſinnes in this world, which doe go ſtrayght waye into Paradyſe, ſauinge that thoſe there cannot yet enter, bicauſe that the doore was ſhutte, vntyll that Ieſus Chriſt came to open it, and to breake the gates of Hell.

Theophilus.

Wherefore was the Purgatorye? Had it in it yet a certeyne other ſorte of ſoules and of an other condytion, then thoſe which went into the Limbes?

Euſebius.

Yea. For thou mayſt well vnderſtande, that all the faythfull, which hauehave procéeded and bene before The reaſon vppon which Purgatory is builded.the comminge of our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte, hauehave not p. 220all of them bene ſo holy and ſo perfect, as the Patriarches and Prophetes. Wherefore it were no reaſon, that incontinently after they are deade they ſhoulde receyue as much felicytie as they, wythout they doe firſt accompliſhe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye, and ſatyſfie for their ſinnes: the which they hauehave not done in thys world, as the holy Patriarches and Prophets hauehave done: or otherwyſe GOD ſhoulde not bée iuſte. For what reaſon is it, that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and ſinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laſte tyme of hys death, in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys ſinnes, and hath aſked mercye of God, ſhoulde hauehave no more gréeuous puniſhment, but ſhould receiue as great reward, as he which al his life time hath ſerued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holyneſſe, righteouſneſſe and innocencie.

Theophilus.

Take héede thou doe not blaſpheme God, and doe imurye vntounto his grace and mercye. For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vntounto the brother of the prodigall childe, who was enuious againſt his Hipocrites enuious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of y^e mercy of God.Luke 15brother, and murmured againſt his father, béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vntounto his ſonne, whome he had recoured, béeing reduced and brought into the right way: or leaſt that thou be one of the companions of thē which were hired to work in y^e vineyard, which did murmure againſt the good man of the houſe, bicauſe y^• he did giuegive as much wages vntounto thoſe whom he called at y^e eleuenth houre, & a little before night, for to work in his vineyard, as vntounto thoſe whō hée appointed from the morning which hauehave borne the burthen and heate of the day. Wherfore doſt thou not accuſe our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, who hath aunſwered vntounto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Croſſe …yth him: This daye ſhalt thou bée with mée in Paradiſe? What good déedes Lu…. 23. l. 4….had hée done before? Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vntounto the poore ſinners?

Euſebius.

God forbid. But we muſt vnderſtand, that as God is mercifull, ſo is hée righteous. And if the théefe which was crucified with Ieſus Chriſt had had that priuiledge, it followeth not therefore, that all hauehave Priuiledgethe lyke, or that they ought to hauehave it. For as the lawe makers doe ſay: the priuiledges of a fewe, are not common lawes to all men.

Theophilus.

If that théefe hath receiued ſo greate goodneſſe by one ſingular priuiledge, I doe aunſwere vntounto thée further, that none is ſaued but by priuiledge.

For all wée hauehave meryted eternall dampnation, of our Saluation by priuiledge Rom. 3. 9.Rom 3:9nature. Inaſmuch then as wée be ſaued, that is, thorow a ſingular priuiledge, which is giuen of God vntounto the elect by Ieſus Chriſt, which is not common vntounto the reprobate.

Euſebius.

There is yet an other reaſon, wherefore that théeſe went ſtraight into Paradiſe, wythout paſſinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye: that is, bicauſe that he had alreadye done his penaunce in Payne for ſatiſfaction.this world, and hath ſatiſfied for his ſinnes.

Theophilus.

What penaunce or ſatiſfaction coulde hée hauehave made? For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet.

Euſebius.

But it was the paine that hée endured and ſuffered, and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites.

Theophilus.

As much did his companion ſuffer which was hanged on the left hande: but yet neuertheleſſe his torments hauehave ſerued him nothing at all, and hée dyd not heare ſuch promiſe of Ieſus Chriſt as the other.

Euſebius.

Bicauſe that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye, and hath not beléeued in Ieſus Chriſte and demaunded pardon of hys ſinnes as his companion did.

Theophilus.

Thou alwayes commeſt vntounto my compt, and thou ſhalt hée compelled to confeſſe that there is nothinge which was the cauſe of his ſaluation but the faith which he had in Ieſus Chriſt, and the mercy of God, The only death of Ieſus Chriſt doth ſatisfie.which hée hath obteyned by the ſame, without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthineſſe, nor p. 221vntounto his workes, but vntounto Ieſus Chriſte his ſonne, for whoſe louelove he hath pardoned him, not for the forment and death, which the théeſe hath ſuffred, and the ſatiſfaction that he could doe vntounto him, but for the forment, death and paſſion which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſuffred & the ſatiſfaction that he hath made for him, the which Sainct Cyprian hath Cypr. lib. 4. de bapiſmo l…. ſent 4. diſt. 4. ſunt.well vnderſtanded, of whom the witnes is alleged by the maiſter of the ſentences. For although all the deathes and forments that all men hauehave euer ſuffred, Patriarkes, Prophets and Apoſtles, Martirs and confeſſors ſhould be put together, they ſhould not be ſufficient, for to put out the leaſt ſinne in the world. For God doth not take onlye for ſatiſfaction, the torment, but regardeth the worthynes of the perſon, of which he receaueth the raunſome, the whiche was not found ſufficient, but in Ieſus Chriſt. Or otherwiſe if the torment which man doth ſuffer, were approued and allowed of God for ſatiſfaction, and cauſe to auoyd the paines of Purgatory, there ſhoulde bee no men more happier and bleſſed then the théeues, murtherers, brigandes and other malefactors, which are executed by Iuſtice. And there would bee, none which would not but become a théeſe or murtherer, or to cōmit ſome fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iuſtice, to auoide y^e paines of Purgatory. For if the doctrine of your diuines be true, y^e fire of Purgatory ſurmounteth al the paine, that a The greatnes of the paynes of Purgatory.man can ſuffer in this life, and it is ſo hot and burning, that the viſible and materiall fire of this world, is but as a painted fire in compariſon of that ſame.

Hillarius.

I cannot vnderſtand in what place of the holy Diſt. 25. ca. Apoſtolus. Tho. 4. diſt. 21. a…. 1. Ric. 4. diſt. 20. arg. 2. A…ber. 7. li. com theo. ca. 2. Bona. 4. diſt. 18 Plutar. l…. de ſera. numi. vind.ſcripture they hauehave ſéene that, I woulde rather beleeue that they hauehave learned it of Plutarch, who hath witten, that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are ſo great and ſo cruell, that there is aſmuche difference betwéene them, and thoſe that wee do ſuffer in our body, and in the fleſh, as there is difference, betwéene that which happeneth vntounto vsus in dreaming, and that which happeneth vntounto vsus waking: In ſomuch that all that whiche we doe ſuffer in this worlde, is but as a dreame in the reſpecte of the ſame. Fable of Gregory. Bart. fer. 4. heb. 4. quadrag. Ser, de poen. purg.Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians hauehave reherſed of Sainct Gregory be true, I ſhal not be abaſhed, that hee had rather chooſe (when the Aungell did giuegive vntounto him the choyce of two things) to be in paine and ſickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory, bicauſe that hée prayed for Traianus, and deliuered him from hell. For although that he complained in his Epiſtles, that hée is ſo much gréeuid with diſeaſes, and ſo great dolours, that his life is vntounto him nothing but paine, yet neuertheles it is verye caſle in compariſon to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe hath the Angell giuen vntounto him to chooſe one of thoſe two paines? By doing good, ought euill to happen vntounto him? Hath hée fetched out Traianus, from hell againſt Gods will? If our Prieſtes had ſuch a payment, for to drawe ſoules out of Purgatorye; I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their maſſes.

Hillarius.

It were neceſſary that ſithens they hauehave begunne the fable, to ende it, for to make it accorde and Fable of Theſeus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6.agrée with that of Theſeus and Pyrothus, who as the Poetes do witnes are puniſhed in the hells bicauſe that they woulde take awaye Proſerpina maugre the God Pluto.

Theophilus.

Difference bevveene the fire of purgatory & of hell. Ric. 4. diſt. 20. arg. 2. Bonau…n. 4. diſt. 18. Albet. 7. li. com pe. tha. ca. 2. Thom. 4. diſt. 21. arg. 1. & 3 er. q. 46. ar. 6.That is yet nothing in compariſon to that y^t I hauehave ſaid. They do kindle that fire more. For they do affirme, that the ſame of Purgatory, and that of hell is al one, and that there is none other difference, but that the ſame of hell is eternall touching his office, but the ſame of Purgatory, is not but as touching his ſubſtaunce, bicauſe that the ſoules go out ſome time. Wherefore they do conclude that not onelyonly the paine of Purgatorye is the moſte gréenous that euer was, but whiche is more. Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and ſurmounteth the dolours & torments which Ieſus Chriſt hath ſuffred in his death and paſſion. What blaſphemy can p. 222be more greater? For what hell can be more truell then that which Ieſus Chriſte hath ſuffred for vsus, when hee take vponupon him the curſſe due for our ſinnes, for to deliuer vsus?

Thomas.

Do they not alledge ſome place of the holye Scripture, for to proue that?

Hillarius.

Barl. ſerm de p…na Purg. example Anto. … par. ſū.Where ſhal they finde it? their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins, of a Frier of that order who appeared vntounto a very friende of his, by whom beeing aſked of the paines of Purgatorye, aunſwered that if all the world and all the viſible things were on fire and did burne, yet it could not be compared, to the paine and beate of Purgatorye: boſt thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of ſuch Theologians.

Euſebius.

Although that there were no Scripture, & that we had but our naturall ſence the which God hath giuen Mans reaſon y^e foundacion of Purgatory.vntounto vsus, yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and neceſſarie that there be a Purgatorye, in whiche the ſinful men may he puniſhed, for thoſe ſinnes of which they hauehave not ended their penaunce. For it is not written with out cauſe: Nullum malum impunitum: Nullum bonum irrenumeratum. That is, ther is none euil which ſhal not be vnpaniſhed, nor no goodnes which ſhal not be vnrewarded.

Theophilus.

Although that thoſe wordes are not reryted in the ſcripture, after that manner as thou dooſt receyte them, yet neuertheles. I am content to allow it to be true. I doe not deny, but that God is as iuſt as he is merciful. The Iuſtice and mercy of God.For otherwiſe he could not be God. But we ought to conſider, by what meanes he doth exerciſe his iuſtice & merciemercy towards vsus. There is no doubt, but y^e our ſinnes do deſerue Eſa. 9. b. 6 Iohn. 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2….Isa 9John 3Rom 3:24Gal 3great puniſhmēt. And therfore hath he giuē vntounto vsus Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, & hath deliuered him to death for vsus, that our miſdéeds ſhould be puniſhed in him, & that he do ſatiſfie for vsus to his ſouereigne iuſtice, for to obteine of him grace & mercy in his name. Thou ſeeſt thē y^t there is none Punishment for ſinnes.euil which is not vnpuniſhed, for to ſatiſfie y^e rightouſnes & iuſtice of god: but ther is differēce in y^e māner of puniſhing For… he that hath b…ne the euil beleeueth in Ieſus Chriſt, and hath full hope and truſt that thorow his death & paſſion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remiſſion of his ſinnes, thorow that ſaith, he is the true member of Ieſus Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 Iohn. 15. Gala. 3. …Rom 121 Cor 12John 15Gal 3Chriſt, and adopted for the ſonne of God. If hee bee a true member of Ieſus Chriſt, and a true childe of God, hée & his ſinnes are puniſhed in Ieſus Chriſte, who for that cenſe, hath borne the iudgement and turſſe of God, for all the elect. But if the ſinner bee an Infidell, and whiche hath no parte with Ieſus Chriſt, the wrath of God falleth Iohn. 3. d. 36John 3vppon him and he cannot eſcape the Iudgement of God, but that his ſinne be puniſhed in himſelfe, in hell fire. And euen as our euill deedes are puniſhed in Ieſus Chriſt, ſo are our good déedes rewarded in him, and by him allowed The revvard of good deades.of the celeſtiall Father, which crowneth his good works in vsus. For nothing pleaſeth him but Ieſus Chriſt his welbeloued ſonne, in whom he deliteth, and no workes Mat. 3. …Matt 3can be found agréeable, but his. For there is no goodneſſe but in him. Wherefore if we will hauehave any good thing in vsus, we muſt ſéeke … borrow it of him. And if we will that our works be pleaſing vntounto God, it is neceſſary that Ieſus Chriſt do them in vsus thorow his holy ſpirite: or otherwiſe, the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good, nor yet giuegive vntounto them reward.

Euſebius.

Obiection.I doe greately doubt, that in magnifiyng ſo much the grace and mercy of God, and the efficacie of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, you giuegive occaſion vntounto many to doe euill, without euer caring to do any good workes: For if that men hauehave once this opinion, that they are ſaued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God, and that they cannot merite paradiſe by their good works, what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not ſerue them no more then the euill?

Theophilus.

I do feare moreouer, that the doctrin which thou holdeſt, doth induce and leade them vntounto that which Purgatory the nourſe of ſinne.thou ſayeſt For how many hath there bene, who hauing that opinion to ſatiſfie in Purgatorye for their ſinnes, p. 223hauehave giuen themſelues vntounto al vices, during their life, hoping that they will prouide ſo well to their affaires, that for golde and ſiluer, they ſhalbe incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead? And ſo by that meanes they did thinke, that it was not néedefull to ſtudye to doe good workes. For they did hope to finde in their purſe all that that ſhoulde bée néedefull for theyr ſaluation. But for aſmuche as it is a queſtion touchinge Good vvorkes.good workes, whom doeſt thou thinke can doe them beſt, eyther the ſeruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulſion, who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his maſter, or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde: or the ſonne, who thorow an entier louelove towards his father, and taketh pleaſure in none other thing, but to ſerue and honoure him wel, bicauſe of the natural louelove that he beareth vntounto him, and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath re…ed and doth receiue daily of him, without any ſeruile feare, but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him?

Euſebius.

There is no doubt, that thoſe whiche ſerue onelyonly for feare to be puniſhed, or for hope of rewarde, cannot ſerue faithfully nor lawfully: but are as the ſeruaunts which ſerue to pleaſe the eye, and do good ſeruice whileſt Collo. 3. d. 22.that the maſter is preſent: notwithſtanding they hauehave no good will towards him.

Theophilus.

Yet neuertheles thoſe which do follow the VVorkes, Hipocrites.doctrine, the which thou holdeſt, are altogether like vntounto thoſe here. For either they do giuegive themſelues altogether to their pleaſures and delites, hoping that they will ſatiſfie by money for their ſinnes, and redéeme themſelues? or if they ſtudie to doé well, they doe it not but thorow feare, as a ſubiect doth ſerue a Tyraunt, fearing …o fall into his hands: or as Merconaries & Hirelings, not for the louelove they hauehave to god, but for the louelove they hauehave to themſelues. And ſo by that meanes, eyther they do make GOD The God of the Hipocriteslike vntounto a cruel Tyraunt, or to a polling Iudge & théefe, who for money abſolueth the euill doers, and as a companion of théeues, taketh his parte of the hootie with them: or els they make themſelus god, & doe worſhip the workes of their handes, ſith that by them they do ſaue themſelues, and merite Paradiſe. Wherefore they hauehave no néede of Ieſus Chriſt. I demaund of thee, which art but a ſinful man, if thou wouldſt take for a true friend a man which ſhould do vntounto thée ſeruice only for y^• feare that he hath of thée, leaſt thou ſhouldeſt do vntounto him hurt? or for hope that he ſhould hauehave to feare thée better, wout which hee would make none accompt of thée, nor would not ſet by thée? Euſebius. I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin, Friendes of the kitchin.which loueth more his belly thē me, of whō he is a friend, & not of me.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheles, if thou doſt wel conſider the nature of the Hipocrits, & Phariſes, who do attribute ſomuch vntounto their workes, thou ſhouldeſt finde them of ſuch an amitye towardes God, for whoſe louelove they doe not that they do, but for the louelove of thē ſelues: and doe not ſerue god, but after y^• manner as the beaſtes do ſerue men, or for the feare that they hauehave to be beaten, or for the nurriſhment and foode that they doe receiue. But without ſtaying our ſelues anye longer vppon that pointe, let vsus returne vntounto our talke of the Limbe: ſith that thou putteſt the Limbe for the one, and Purgatory for the other, what difference doſt thou put betweene thoſe which were in the Limbe, and thoſe which were in Purgatory, ſith that the one and the other, according to your doctrine, were depriued of the fruition of God? I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers, aſwell Patriarkes as Prophets, were depriued from ſuch a goodnes, wherein did they differ from the dampned & And in like Difference betweene the L… he. Purgatory and hell.manner thoſe whom thou ledgeſt in Purgatorye, what néed hauehave they of any more greater tormēt, or of any other fire, for to torment them? And what ſolace can they hauehave more then y^• damned, if they were depriued frō y^• loves of Paradiſe. and yet beſides that, to bee deteined in the fire? p. 224Hillarius. But at that time, for that there was no Maſſe nor papiſtical Prieſts, for to pray and do ſacrifices for the dead they ſhould continue a long time in thoſe paines & torments. And which is more, ſith that in that time, none could enter in Paradiſe, when they had accompliſhed the time of their paines in Purgatorye, whether went they, when they departed from thence? They could not but departe from one hell, for to go into an other, that is to ſay, from purgatory to the Limbe: where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked faſt, in the priſons of Purgatory, vntill the comming of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

For to ſpeake the truth, I finde no great difference, betweene hell and thoſe other two lodgings.

Euſebius.

But there is great difference. For theſe here do hope to come once vntounto the eternall felicitie, from y^• which the dampned are altogether depriued.

Theophilus.

There is then none other difference, but that the one are defeined and kept in hell, and dampned for euer: the others are not but for a time. And ſo your Limbe, and Purgatory ſhal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origeniſtes and Catabaptiſtes, who were The hell of the Origeniſts and Catabaptiſtsin this fooliſh and falſe opinion, that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually, but that all thoſe whiche are deteyned in hell, after a long ſpace of time, ſhalbe deliuered, & finally all ſaued.

Thomas.

Now bare they ſay y^•, ſith y^• the holy ſcripture witneſſeth ſo euidentlye, that the Eſa. …. g. 24 Mat. 25. d. 46 Mar… 9. 8. 48. Apo. 14. c. …l.Matt 25Mark 9:8Mark 9:48paines of hel are eternall & y^• our lord Ieſus Chriſt called y^• hel fire, eternall & inextinguible?

Theophilus.

What other reaſons hauehave y^• heriticks, for to fight againſt y^• veritie thē their humain opiniōs? or ſome place of y^• holy ſcripture, depraued & corrupted by their falſe vnderſtanding? They hauehave no building or foūdatiō but y^• it is eaſie to ouerthrow. But we hauehave not now to diſpute againſt thoſe olde Origeniſtes, which are rayſed vp againe of y^• Catabaptiſtes, y^• which are already vāquiſhed ynough, but we hauehave to work againſt the papiſtes, whō by good right we may cōpare vntounto thoſe, & cal thē new Origeniſtes aſwel as y^• Catabaptiſts There is no difference, but that the Catabaptiſtes are not ſo much couered and diſguiſed, and that they do rayſe vp againe too openly the olde errors and hereſies, y^e which are taken all readye for condempned. But the Papiſtes hauehave found an other maſke, and an other manner to procéede, by which Sathan in them, hath founde the meanes to redreſſe and amende that bell of the Origeniſtes, in dyſguiſing onelyonly a little the building after an other ſort. For when all ſhalbe well conſidered, I knowe not wherein thoſe whom you lodge in the Limbe and Purgatory doe differ, from thoſe whom y^e Origeniſtes and Catabaptiſtes did hold and accompt for dampned: except you will ſaye, that the paine and hell of the one, continueth more then of the other.

Euſebius.

There is a great deale more. For notwithſtanding that al were tormented, yet neuertheles thoſe which were in the Limbe, were a great deale leſſe, then thoſe which were deteyned in Purgatory. For there is no fire in the Limbe, and they hauehave none other paine, ſauing that they cannot yet ſée the face of God and hauehave the full ioy & The payne of the Limbefruition of Paradiſe, the whiche they doe farye for, much deſiring it: which was vntounto them a great torment, as vntounto eueryevery one which tarieth for the goodneſſe that he deſireth, and cannot hauehave it ſo ſoone as he would. In like manner thoſe which were in Purgatorye, and are yet at this The payne of Purgatorypreſent, do not ſuffer ſo gréeuous torments without compariſon, as the dampned that are deteined in hell fire: But they hauehave yet neuertheleſſe more fire then thoſe whiche were in the Limbe.

Theophilus.

Thou ſhalt be yet compelled to come vntounto my ſayings. For what other thing may I conclude, by thy wordes, but that there is three helles, betwéene whiche thrée is no difference, but that the one os more cruel then Three helles.the other, as the torments & priſons of the Tyrants are. For Theologians do affirme that there is two ſortes of Poena damni. & poena ſenſus Leo de viim. ſer uim ſeſt. mort.paines in Purgatory, to wit, the paine of Dam, and the paine of the ſence. By the payne of Dam, they vnderſtand p. 225the dammage and hurt that the ſoules doe receiue for the long tarying and let that they hauehave, to ſée the face of God, and to bée in poſſeſſion of the ioyes of Paradiſe. By the paine of the ſence, they vnderſtand the tormentes which the ſoules doe féele of the fire by the which they are puniſhed. Now iudge, what difference can be. Firſt, what more greater paine can the dampned hauehave then this héere? Sith that your Doctors do affirme that the fire of Io. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 44. q. 1.hell, and of Purgatory, is all one, as to his ſubſtaunce, and that after the daye of the laſt iudgement, Purgatorye ſhall bee mingled with Hell, and they ſhalbe but one ſelfe thing? Thou canſt not heere finde any other difference, ſauing that Purgatorye is not a perpetuall hell, neyther an eternall hell fire, but that it hath a certeine ende: and that the Limbe is a halfe Hell. For there is but the paine of Dam, ſith that there is no fire. The which yet neuertheleſſe your Doctors ds affirme to be ſo great that it ſurmounteth all the paines of the world. And for to proue it, they alledge Sainct Auguſtine, ſaying. To be an eſtraunger from the kingdome of God, depriued from the ſwéetneſſe of God, is a paine ſo great, that ther are no torments that may be compared vntounto them. And Chriſoſtome ſaith: Many are afrayde of the Bell fire, but I eſtéeme a paine a great deale greater then the hell fire, tha fall from that glorye. Thou doeſt then ſee, whether I doe wronge to call the Limbe, Hell. But ther is yet a difference betwéene Barl. ſerm. de poen. infer.the paines of the auncient fathers, which were deteyned and kept in the Limbe, and the children that are borne dead. For that halfe hell, after your doctrine, is vntounto them eternall: the which it was not vntounto the auncient fathers. But the better to declare and ſhewe foorth that matter. I Abrahams boſme. Luc. 16. c. 12Luke 16demaund of thée what thou thinckeſt the boſome of Abraham to be, in which Lazarus reſted? I do not now diſpute, whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man & of Lazarus, is alledged as a true hiſtory, or as a parable. For whatſoeuer it bée, Ieſus Chriſt by the ſame, declareth & ſheweth vntounto vsus the eſtate and condition of the elect & reprobate, after this mortal life, & declareth father vntounto vsus that which we ought to hold & beléeue. He maketh Two vvayes onelyonlymention but of two places onelyonly, that is to ſay, of hel fire, in which the rich man was tormented, & of Abrahams boſome, in which Lazarus was receiued. He putteth not foorth a third place: In like manner when he did ſend foorth his Apoſtles to preach, he plainly declared y^e ther was but two wayes, the broad way which leadeth to deſtruction, and ſhe narrow way which leadeth vntounto life, ſaying: He that beléeueth Mat. 7. b. 13. Luc. 13. c. 24 Marc. 16. c. 16.Matt 7Luke 13Mark 16and is baptiſed, ſhall be ſaued: But he that beléeueth not, ſhalbe dampned, Wherefore I would gladly know of thée, what thou vnderſtandeſt by Abrahams boſome: And whether thou doeſt take it for Purgatory or for the Limbe. For thou canſt not vnderſtand it of hell, nor of any place that is nigh vntounto it: ſith that Abraham aunſwered the rich man, that there is a great ſpace ſet betwéene thoſe that are in Abrahams boſome, and thoſe which are in hell Luc. 16. f. 26.Luke 16with the rich man, that it is impoſſible y^e one can neither go nor come from the one of y^e places to the other.

Euſebius.

By Abrahams boſome I vnderſtand the place, in which were receiued y^e Patriarches, Prophets & other holy men which dyed in the faith of Abraham, y^e father of the beléeuers, Gene. 1. 13. 16 Gene. 15. b. 6 Rom. 4. a. … Gal. 3. 2. 6Gen 1:13Gen 1:16Gen 15Rom 4Gal 3:2Gal 3:6& in the hope of ſaluation & benediction y^e they ought to receiue by Ieſus Chriſt our Lord, the true ſéede of the bleſſing promiſed vntounto Abraham.

Theophilus.

Then thou doeſt then take it for the Limbe. For Limbus in the Latin Limbus. Signification of the Limbetongue, ſignifieth the hem or gard of a gowne or of any other garment.

Hillarius.

Yea, in déed, whoſoeuer wil beléeue the witnes of al good Latin authors, as Virgile and other Aene. 2. 4.like, which often times do vſe it, and not in any other ſignification. But peraduenture the papiſtical Theologians would héere vſe their accuſtomed licence, which is to peruert The lycence of the Theologiās& marre all tongues and languages: giuing vntounto them an other ſence a ſignification, & to make a new one, as the Iargon of the beggers & Oſtirians which none vnderſtandeth Pedlers Frenchbut themſelues.

Theophilus.

It muſt néedes be ſo: or els that they dooe p. 226take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore, compariſon and ſtmilitude, for extermitie: as farre as I can iudge, as well I by thy words, before alledged and allowed, as by thoſe of you Theologians. For in diſputing of thoſe internal habitatiōs, they confeſſe by their bookes, that it is vncertein, which is néereſt vntounto hell, either the Limbe or Purgatory. As touching the Limbe of the fathers, they affirme aſſuredly, that in the time when it was, it was ſituated in a place more higher. And as touching that of the children, they ſay, that after the latter iudgement, it ſhall bée in the earth a little aboue the ſame: and hell ſhalbe in the bottom: and Purgatory ſhall be then all one with hell.

Hillarius.

I would gladly knows what meatinges and meaſurings they vſe in thoſe lowe territories, & whether they doe meaſure the landes & countryes, by cubites, elles, rodes, miles and other lyke meaſures, ſuch as the Geometrians and Aſtronomers hauehave. At the leaſtwiſe they are more ſkilfull in ſuch Arte then euer they were. For they doe meaſure the regions and countries, which yet are not. But for a ful reſolution, we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and diſcription, but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins, or the ſuburbes either of hel, or of Paradiſe.

Theophilus.

If y^e Limbe of the fathers were The ſuburbs of hell and of Paradiſe.one of the ſuburbes of hell, it muſt bée y^t the citie ſhould be a great way off from the ſuburbes. For Abraham cléerely witneſſeth that there is ſuch a diſtaunce, from his boſome, the which thou taketh for the Limbe, vntounto hell in which the rich man was, that it is impoſſible to paſſe from y^e one to the other, bicauſe of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both.

Hillarius.

Peraduenture wée may deceiue our ſelues. For how doeſt thou know, whether they do pronounce Limbe, for Lembe. For Lembe in Lembus lembe. Plaut. in Marca & Bacch. Liut. li. 8. bel. punt. & 1. ab vng. Gene … d. 23. 1. Pet. 3. d c1 Pet 3Greeke and Latine ſignifieth a little ſhip and very ſwift: or a gally. Wherefore it may be, that they do meane, that the auncient fathers, were detained & kept in that Lembe as in a ſhip, as Noe was in his Arke, to the end they ſhould not fall into that déepe lake of Hell, and be drowned in the goulfe of thoſe deepe riuers, of which we hauehave ſpoken off ſo much. For all their eaſe goeth by poetical faynings. The Limbe of the InfantsBut howſoeuer they will take it. I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey, that it is moſt lykeſt to be true that the Limbe, at the leaſt the ſame of the poung children, ought rather to be in the ſuburbes of Paradise, then of hell. For they doe bolde for certeyne, that the younge children, which for wanting of exterior and outward baptiſme, are ſent vntounto the Limbe, hearing from thence where they are, the ioyes of Paradiſe, but they cannot ſée them: the which is vntounto them a meruaylous torment. Neuertheleſſe the good olde men woulde not hauehave ſpoken ſo aſſuredly, if they had not heard it ſo preached of the great Theologians and Doctors. Nowe ſithence that from the Limbe, the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradiſe, reaſō declareth vntounto vsus that y^e Limbe ought not to be farre off from paradiſe, but that it may hauehave only ſome wal, or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their ſight, either that they do make a great noyſe in paradiſe: or elſe that the eares of the ſoules are merueylouſly ſharpe and attentius.

Euſebius.

Sith that the Doctors doe ſay that it is ſituated & builded in a place more higher, I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vntounto Paradiſe.

Hillarius.

In ſtéede then y^• Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel, thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradiſe.Aene. 6.

Theophilus.

Sith that wée doe alreadye eſloyne and make our ſelues ſo farre from Hell, I doe greatly feare, that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be ſounds in Paradiſe. And therefore I demaund of thée againe, to knows whether that the boſome of Abraham be a place of voluptuouſnes and pleaſure,. or of ſorrowfulnes & horror. And whether y^• the yoūg children of y^• Hebrews A queſtion of the infants of the Hebrevves dead vvithout circumciſion Gene. 17. b. 10.Gen 17& Iewes, which died before y^• viii. day, which was deternined & appointed for to circumciſe thē, did go into y^• boſome of Abraham w^c the patriarches? either into Purgatory: or into hell, or whether they had an other Limbe a varie.

p. 227Euſebius.

Thou doeſt propound vntounto mée many queſtions together, to the which I cannot anſwere according to the order which thou haſt kept in propounding them. For I will beginne with the latter, afterwardes I wyll deſcend vntounto the others. As touchinge that which thou demaundeſt of the ſaluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes, I doe aunſwere as the Maſter of the ſententes, euen ſo as of the children of the Chriſtians, which dyed before baptiſme.

Theophilus.

Thou wilt then ſay, that they doe periſh, The opinion of Lumbard. … ſent. 4. diſt. 1. St vero. Diſt. 4. ca. neceſſerum. & ca filius. …ka. de ſacra.both the one and the other? For the maſter of the ſentences vſeth this proper worde, ſaying: that it is moſt true that they periſh. If they doe periſh, they are then dampned: the which I am ſure thou wilt not confeſſe. For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them. Yet neuertheleſſe you holde them not for the children of God. And therefore you denye vntounto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard. And therefore that opinion of the maſter of the ſentences hath ſéemed to the other ſcholaſtical Doctors too rigorous, which do witneſſe that they holde it not commonly Vnde verſus ex chan. de ſacram Nullus aborttn. us, null… niſs fonte renatus: Infra ſancta de… debet ſepel…r… vt an lex.in that place, but they take it for an error, the which they hauehave adioyned with the others which they hauehave heaped vp together from their bookes.

Euſebius.

If he did vnderſtand and meane that they went into Hell, I wyll not followe his ſentencs. But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe.

Theophilus.

But was that Limbe whether they went, the very ſame, in which the Patriarches were ſhut in, or whether they had a chamber ſeperated from their lodging?

Euſebius.

I beléeue that the young children hauehave their Limbe ſeperated from the others: or otherwiſe they ſhould hauehave had no more paine then the others which hauehave bene circumciſed: ſith that they cannot yet enter into Paradiſe, but are all ſtayed in the Limbe.

Thomas.

I thinke, that you do not kepe the promiſe which you hauehave made neither on the one ſide nor on the other, & that you abide not within the circuit & field, the which you hauehave determined for your Iouſtes. For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of God. And yet neuertheleſſe, it is alredy a good while, that I hauehave heard any thing of you but the opinions of the Doctors. Wherfore I would gladly (Euſebius) that you would follow that matter, and I deſire that thou wouldeſt proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmeſt of the yoūg children dead without circumciſion & baptiſme.