The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (3 of 3)

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 5 · Body of dialogue (3 of 3)

p. 244Thomas.

I greatly feare Euſebius, that in diſputing after this manner, the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdeſt and mainteineſt, will be altogether deſtroied and ouerthrowen. For as farre as I can iudge, the ſame of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground, if thou do not helpe it. The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde: There remayneth now but the Limbe The Limbe of the Fathers.of the fathers, of which I do very much deſire to know the reſolution, and to vnderſtande whether it bée all one with Paradiſe. For Theophilus hath already almoſt proued it to bée ſo, ſpeaking of the eſtate of thoſe which were in Abrahams boſome.

Euſebius.

I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers, which were deteined in the Limbes, had already a certein participation of the celeſtial ioyes, but not ſo great, as they hauehave had after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

I hope that we ſhalbe ſoone agréed and that there ſhall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnderunder the olde and new Teſtament, then betwéene the liuing, which hauehave bene both in the one and in the other. Thou canſt not deny … but that One onelyonly church and eternall.the Church of Ieſus Chriſt hath begun, thence y^e creation of the world, & the firſt that euer was laſt & righteous, & the which ſhal ſo continue vntounto the ende & concluſion of the world, & ſhall continue eternally.

Euſebius.

I do confeſſe no leſſe.

Theophilus.

I… followeth by the ſame reaſon, that the Church of the patriarches & prophets, which hauehave ben before the comming of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt is none other but y^e very ſame of his Apoſtles, Euangeliſts & Diſciples: and that the faithfull of the people of Iſrael and thoſe of y^e chriſtian people are but one people & one church. For they had one very God: one very Chriſt and the very Heb. …. c. …promiſes: one very ſpirit of faith: and hau… eaten of one manner of ſpirituall meate, and did all drinke of one manner 1. Cor. 10. 23.1 Cor 10:23of ſpiritual drinke with vsus, as the Apoſtle witneſſeth.

Euſebius.

Then there ſhall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vsus. To what ende then ſerued the comming of Ieſus Chriſt?

Theophilus.

I hauehave not yet ſayde ſo. For I doe finde great difference.

Euſebius.

What?

Theophilus.

Difference betvvene the old and nevve Teſtament.As great as is betwéene a ſtarre and the Sunne, from the day breake and dawning to hye none: betwéene the ſhadow and the body: betwéene the Image and the truth: betwéene the thing promiſed, and the thing giuen.

Euſebius.

Thou wilt yet come vntounto my matter. For it ſéemeth by thoſe wordes, that thou leaueſt to the auncientes but the ſhadowes and figures and that thou giueſt vntounto vsus the body and the thing figured. There is then great difference.

Theophilus.

Yet thou vnderſtandeſt me not very well. I doe not denye, but that they had all that which wée hauehave: but not ſo cléerely, ſo excellently and ſo gloriouſly, nor in ſuch aboundaunce of glory and maieſtie: For by 2. Cor. 3. c. 1…2 Cor 3the comming of Ieſus Chriſt the knowledge of God, and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater, and more ample then before: not onelyonly in the land of Canaan, & to the people of Iſrael, but in all landes, countries Act. …. ….& nations and the ſpirit of God with all his giftes, graces and riches, hath bene diſtributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue & magnificence then euer it was

Euſebius.

Difference betvvene the dead vnderunder the olde and nevve teſtament.That which thou ſpeakeſt off, toucheth not yet but to the liuing which hauehave liued as well vnderunder the olde as the new teſtament. But what difference doeſt thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead, vnderunder the one and the other?

Theophilus.

That ſhould bée too great temeritie and raſhneſſe in vsus, to define of the eſtate of the dead, and to affirme any other thing then that which ſtandeth manifeſtly vntounto vsus by the holy Scriptures. Yet neuertheleſſe, becauſe that in the ſame there are ſome places, which giuegive light vntounto vsus of that ſame. I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter, ſuch certeine difference betwéene them, as wée hauehave put betwne the liuing.

p. 245Euſebius.

It ſéemeth then, that thou wouldeſt ſay that the gates of Paradiſe were no leſſe open, before the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt then afterwardes. And that there was none other difference, betwéene the heauenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers, and of the Chriſtians that are deade, ſaying that nowe all hauehave it more ample and more excellent.

Theophilus.

As for my part there where I hauehave not the ſcripture well expreſſed, I doe leaue vntounto eueryevery one his frée iudgement, ſo that it be ruled by the worde of God. Touching my part, I will expounde vntounto thée, that that I can drawe & comprehend out of the holy ſcriptures, by the which it is ſufficiently made knowen vntounto vsus, that notwithſtanding that Ieſus Chriſt hath béene immolated and offered vponupon the Croſſe for to ſatiſfie the righteouſneſſe of God for vsus, at the time which was ordeined him of the father, yet hath he béene The ſacrific… of Chriſt is eternall. 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Heb. 13. b. 81 Cor 5Heb 13ne…ertheleſſe killed and offered in the preſence of God, from the beginning of the worlde. For it is written: Ieſus Chriſt was yeſterday and to day, and the ſame contynueth for euer. By thoſe wordes, the Apoſtle comprehendeth all the tyme paſt, preſent and to come. To which Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe had-regarde, when he ſaide, Abraham did ſée my dayes and reioyced. For although Iohn. 8. g. 58John 8that in reſpect of vsus he was crucyfied in the fulneſſe of time, in thoſe latter dayes, yet neuertheleſſe in the preſence of God, he hath béene a…ayes: and his ſacrifice hath béene eternally preſented vntounto him. For with God there is up difference of times, as in vsus, bicauſe that all Rom. 8. c. 15 Gal. 4. …. 4Rom 8Gal 4thinges are preſent to him, and that he is aboue, and out of the ſame. For a thouſande yeares before him, are to Pſal. 90. a. 4. …. Pet. 3. b, 8Ps 90him but as one day. Wherefore in the ſame ſort as the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte ſerueth nowe to vsus, which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vsus, although that he hangeth no more in the croſſe, ſo I holde it for certeine, that it profiteth thoſe which liued before that he was cruci…ed, and hauehave beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them, euen as we beléeue that he is come, and that he is deade for vsus.

Euſebius.

To what ende hath ſerued then his comming?

Theophilus.

Doeſt thou yet not vnderſtande it? If a man were detayned and kept in priſon for certeine debt that he oweth, and that he hath a certeine friend who commeth to be his ſuertie and to pledge him, body for body, and goods for goods, and that the creditor & prince receiueth & alloweth him for his pledge, ſuertie and hoſtage, ſhall not the priſoner be deliuered by meanes of that ſuertie? But yet neuertheleſſe, vponupon ſuch condition, that either he, or his ſuertye doe pay and ſatiſfie for him, at the time as ſhalbe appointed him. After Chriſt our ſuertie. Geneſ. 3. c. 15Gen 3the ſame manner hath God done, with thoſe good auncyent fathers. For ſithen…e that he made the promiſe vntounto Adam, of the ſéede of the woman which ſhoulde breake the ſerpents head, the which afterwardes he hath r…rated and confirmed more amply and more clearely vntounto Abraham, Gen…. 12. … 15 20. 48 2. Reg. 7 Pſal. 40 Pſal. 1302 Kgs 7Ps 40Ps 130Iacob, Dauid, and to all the other patr…ark… and celebrated by all his Prophetes, and by all the ſacrifices, oblations, figures and ceremonyes commaunded in bys lawe, Ieſus Chriſt offred himſelfe to God his father, for to bee our pledge and ſuertye: and gaue himſelfe to him as a pledge, for all thoſe which hauehave beléeued in his promiſes, made of him. But vponupon ſuch condition, that Iere. 23. …. 5 & …3. c. 14 … …. …. 47Jer 23he being very and true God, according to the good pleaſure of the father, for to ſatiſfie his will and his righteouſneſſe, tooke vponupon him our fleſh and preſented himſelfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was conſtituted and appointed him, for to ſatiſfie in our ſtéede. Nowe ſith y^• Ieſus Chriſt hath once aunſwered for his bretheren beléeuing in him, the heauenly father hath excepted it, aſwell as though, he had alreadie ſatiſfied it, as afterwardes he hath done it in his time.

Euſebius.

Doeſt thou think that … of glory in the other ly…e.there is in the other life any augmentation and increaſe of ioy and of glory?

Theophilus.

To the end thou maiſt not rebuke me in ouer raſh defining of ſuch things, I will propounde vntounto thée the witneſſes of the ſcripture, by whiche thou maiſt comprehend that which we may iudge off. Mark p. 246then firſt the witneſſe of the Apoſtle, which ſaith, writting of the holy prophets and ſeruants of God which were before the comming of Chriſt: that all thoſe there, hauing Heb. 11. ….Heb 11obteyned witneſſe by faith receiued not the promiſe, God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vsus, to the end that they ſhould not be come vntounto perfection, without vsus. He ſaith not, that they hauehave altogether receiued the promiſe: For it was made firſt of all to them. But he vnderſtandeth the accompliſhing and the fruite of the ſame, of which they hauehave not béene altogether depriued: But they hauehave not had it ſo perfectly, as we hauehave it nowe: For ſith that he ſpeaketh of fulfilling and ending, he ſignifieth then, that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie: But the perfection was not yet, nor ſhalbe vntill the conſūmation and reſtoring of all things. For the terme of conſūmation and perfection, are relatiues, the which wée muſt neceſſarily referre vntounto ſome beginning. To which agréeth the aunſwere that GOD made vntounto the ſoules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce againſt the perſecutors of the Church: vntounto whome the Lorde aunſwered, that they ſhoulde tarrye vntyll the number of Apoc. 6. c. 10Rev 6their bretheren were fulfilled.

Euſebius.

make me to vnderſtand that more clearely.

Theophilus.

Aſſone as we b…gin to knowe God in A compariſon of the lyfe preſent and of that to come. Heb. 6. …. 4 Io…. 5.Heb 6this worlde, and to beléeue in Ieſus Chriſt, we begin alſo to taſt the goodneſſe of the celeſtiall life and of the worlde to come: But we hauehave not yet perfect ioy. Yet neuertheleſſe ſithence that we hauehave once taſted that celeſtiall goodneſſe we grow from day to day, from knowledge to knowledge, from faith to faith, from good to be better, vntil we become vntounto the age of a perfect man, to the fulneſſe of Ephe. 4Eph 4Chriſt, to the eternall felicitie and ended bleſſedneſſe. Now if alreadie in this vale of miſery, our ſoule, being charged with this terreſtiall body, ſhut vp and kept in the ſame, as in a darke priſon, altogether wrapped in miſeries, ſinnes and maledictions, receiueth ſuch conſolation and ioy, there is no doubt, but that after that it is deliuered from that priſon and capti…tie and hath put of all earthly corruption, it may growe into all goodneſſe and perfection: or elſe in vaine hath Saint Paul ſaide: I deſ…re to be loſed and to be with Chriſt, which thing is to …e beſt of all. P…il. …. d. 2…And yet neuertheleſſe it hath not hir …e…i…tie and perfect glorie, vntill the reſurrection of his glorious bodie, And that it be againe vnited wi…h it, and ſe… God face to face, and knowe him as we hauehave béene know… of him: 1. Cor. 13. d. 12 1. Cor. 15 d 28 1. Iohn. 3. … … Coloſ. 3. …, 31 Cor 131 Cor 151 John 3Col 3then when he ſhal hauehave vanquiſhed all things, and ſhalbe all in all. For it is not yet appeared, what we ſhalbe: but our life is hid in Ieſus Chriſt. Euen as then, thoſe which doe nowe depart out of this life, hauehave not yet ſuch ioy, as they ſhall hauehave after that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall appeare in glorie, …or to iudge all fleſh, when we ſhall all ariſe, ſo by the like reaſon we may eſtéeme and thinke, that the auncient fathers, which hauehave béene before the comm…ng of Ieſus Chriſt, hauehave not had altogether ſuch ioy and felicitie, before …is reſurrection as afterwarde. For if the Angels themſelues, which alwayes doe behold Augmentacion of the felicitie to the Angelsthe face of the heauenly father hauehave receiued increaſe of the ſcience and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and there ought to receiue it more ample in the reſurrection of the iuſt and righteous, we muſt not doubt, but that aſmuch ſhall happen vntounto the bleſſed ſpirites and iuſt ſoules. Wherefore wée may eaſely knowe by the ſame: howe great and admirable the miſterie and ſecret of the redemption of mankinde is: and what is the excellencie of the Church of Ieſus Chriſt: ſith that the angels themſelues do… receiu… ſo great profite and increaſe in all goodneſſe.

Thomas.

By what place of the holy ſcripture ca…ſt thou proue that which thou ſpeakeſt.

Theophilus.

They are ſufficiently expreſſed in the Epiſtles of the Apoſtles for ſaint Peter, ſpeaking of that matter, ſaith that of the Prophets & auncyent fathers, that it hath béene reuealed vntounto them, y^• not to them ſelues, but vntounto vsus, they ſhould adminiſter the things; the which (ſaith he) nowe are declared vntounto you by them p. 2471. Pe…er. 1. … …which hauehave declared the goſpell, by the holy ghoſt ſent from … the which the Angels doe deſire to beholde. The Angel… had not that deſire, but that they did féele a greate goodneſſe. But ſaint Paul ſheweth vntounto vsus the ſame yet more expreſſely and declareth vntounto vsus ſufficiently that ſith that the Angels are the miniſters of God appointed Pſal. 9…. c. 11 Hebr. 1, c. …Ps 9Heb 1to the health of men, which cannot be in perfect and full bleſſedneſſe as we which are their compagnions, burgeſſes and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them, neither are we alſo come therevnto. For euen as they do reioyce ouer the ſinner that repenteth and which Luc. 15. c. 10Luke 15ret…urneth vntounto God: alſo without all doubt, ſith that abo…e all things they do procure our helth and ſaluation, it cannot be, but that they are verie angrye and ſorye when they ſée vsus yet preſſed with ſinne and death and to ſtriue againſt them in great anguiſh. Foraſmuch then as their …y…itie is ioyned with ours, it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect. For it is written expreſly that the ſaintes ſhal iudge the Angels and the worlde 1. Cor. 6, …, 2.1 Cor 6And the Apoſtle affirmeth, that nowe vntounto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation Eph…. 3, b. 10the manifold wiſedome of God according to the eternall purpoſe which he purpoſed in Chriſte Ieſu our Lorde. If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodneſſe of God, the which they doe daily ſée to be manifeſted by newe miracles towardes the Church, ſo in like manner it muſt be that they doe acknoweledge vsus for their iudges, and princes in Chriſt, and bicauſe of Chriſte it is eaſie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth ſéeke his perfection of Ieſus Chriſte. Therefore it is written that thorowe him all Chriſt the reſtorer of all thinges Ephe, 1, b, 10. Collo, 1, …, ….thinges are repaired and reſtored, both in heauen and in earth. Wherein the ſcripture teacheth vsus, that his comming was not onelyonly healthful vntounto men, but alſo vntounto all creatures yea vntounto the Angels themſelues, which had no ſinne. For euen as the f…ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them ſubiect vntounto malediction with him? ſo eueryevery creature ſigheth and groneth with him alſo, loo…g for their redemption Rom. …. d. …and deliuerance, the which is ioyned together with his. Nowe if the Angells cannot be perfectly conſ… mated in all bleſſedneſſe without vsus, which are their compaignio…s, how ſhal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vntounto vsus, & which do yet t…e for the redemption of their bodyes, and the conſummation of their ioy? the which they cannot hauehave without vsus, and a great deale leſſe then the Angels.

Thomas.

We… may alſo conclude by the contrarie, that the tor…ents of the diuells Torments of the reprobate aggra…ated.and reprobate doe increaſe: and that they ſhalbe greater and more grieuous, after the latter iudgement, then they are at this preſent.

Theophilus.

Saint Péeter doth giuegive vsus moſt euident witneſſe, writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner: howe will God ſpare them, if he hauehave not ſpared 2. Peter. 2. 2. 4.2 Pet 2:22 Pet 2:4the Angels that hauehave ſinned: but hath caſt them down into hell, & deliuered them into chaynes of darkeneſſe, to be kept vntounto iudgement? And by and by after he ſaith moreouer: the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation, and howe to reſerue the vniuſt vntounto the day of iudgement. We cannot deny, but that the diuels 2. Peter. 2. b. 92 Pet 2and reprobate are alreadie in torment, and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell, ſith that they are reiected of God, & that they are in his wrath … indignation. But yet neuertheleſſe by the words of ſaint Peter we may eaſely vnderſtand that they doe attend and …ari… for yet, a certeine more grieuous iudgement, & gods anger more fearefull then they hauehave féeled. But for to make thée to vnderſtand more plainely that which I thinke, I will expounde it vntounto thée by a ſimilitude and compariſon taken of the very words of S. Peter. When a malefactor hath cōmitted ſome certein great cryme, worthy of death The beginning of gods iudgmēt& grieuous puniſhment, there is no doubt, but y^• he féeleth his condempnation in his conſcience, aſſone as he hath cō mitted the euil déede. He hath his conſcience which is his p. 248Conſcience. C…nſc…ncia … …ſt….accuſor: for a witneſſe: for a iudge and for a hangeman: and it can be none otherwiſe. His conſcience …yteth and I…nal. Sa…y. 13. Cur tamen hos tu. Euaſiſſe pute… quos d… conſ… ſacti. Meus reddit attonitos, & ſurdo verbere c…dit. Occultum qu… ti…nt… an…mum tortore ſt…gellū. Item. Exemplo qu…d cunque malo committitur ipſi. Diſplicet autori prima haec eſt vl…, quod ſe Iudi… nemo no…ns abſoluitur. Item. Nocte d…que ſuum geſtat …n pectore teſtem. Spartano cut dam reſpond…t Pythia …ates Deut. 28. c. 15.Deut 28accuſeth him. Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquiſhed of hys miſdéedes, by his owne proper witneſſe, which avayleth more then a thouſand witneſſes. And after it hath vanquiſhed hym, it condempneth him. And euen as it conſtrayneth them to witneſſe againſt themſelues, ſo it conſtrayneth them, to condempne themſelues, inſomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde, woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iuſt, yet neuertheleſſe they cannot abſolue and cleare themſelues, nor auoide their owne iudgement. Now after y^• ſentēce giuen, it muſt be that it be put in execution, and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman: the which he néede not to ſéeke farre, nor out of himſelfe. His conſcience with the reſt, doth yet that office: the which whippeth and tormenteth him ſo cruelly that he cannot hauehave reſt day nor night. If he ſée any talke together, he thinketh they talke of hym. If he ſée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are ſeriants ſent for to take and carie him to priſon. If he thinke to ſléepe and take reſt, he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which ſendeth him to the hangeman, and that they doe leade him to the gallowes. And in waking and ſléeping, he ceaſeth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen, …ortures and Gybettes: Wherefore the Prophete hath not ſaide without a cauſe: That the wicked are like the raging Sea, that cannot reſt, whoſe water …ometh with the myre and grauell.

Euen ſo the wicked hauehave no peace, ſaith the Lorde. Eſa. 57. d. 20. Geneſ. 4. b. 8, Mat. 27. …. …. Act. …. c. 1….Isa 57Gen 4Matt 27HaueHave we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas? From whence procéeded that violence of mans conſcience but from GOD? Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour, in ſuch ſort that they themſelues cannot beare it? But are conſtrayned to condempne them ſelues and deſpaire: whiche is a certeine witneſſe that there is a iudgement and … God vntounto whome we muſt render accompte. The which The vvitneſſe of conſcience, that there is a GOD.we ought all to vnderſtande and knowe, although wée ſhould neuer heare ſpeaking of God, nor of his holy ſcriptures: and although we ſhoulde hauehave none other witnes but the ſame heré: the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of eueryevery one, the which ought well to ſuffice vsus. For as ſaint Iohn ſaith: if but hearts condemne 1. Iohn. 3. d. 201 John 3vsus, God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things. That is as much as if he had ſaide, if we ourſelues doe condemne vsus, may not God well condemyne vsus? Sith that we hauehave ſuch a feare and ſuch a horrour doeth not our heart admoniſh vsus ſufficiently, that we hauehave a ſuperiour and gouernour which will not ſuffer ſuch thinges? Sith that there is not ſo great a Prince, not ſo great a Tyrant, which feeleth not that hell in his conſcience. Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide. Doeſt thou nowe ſee, howe the hell The beginning of hell and of Paradiſe.of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him, here in … worlde? The which our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, woulde not hauehave vsus to be ignorant off, ſaying: be that beléeueth in the Iohn. 3. 5. 6.John 3:5John 3:6ſonne of God, hath eternall life, and ſhall not taſt of death. For he is alreadie paſſed from death to life, but he that beléeueth not in the ſonne of God, he is alreadie iudged and condem…ned. Doth he not ſhewe vsus here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradiſe in this worlde, and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell.

Hillarius.

There is nothing more certeine then that which thou ſpeakeſt. And although we had not the witneſſes of the Scriptures, wee hauehave the witneſſe of nature, printed into the hearts of all, which hath conſtrained The Fu…yes and ſhe diuells Iuuenal. Sat. 13 …ug. Aene. 6 Cic. in ora…. pro Piſo.the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies, the which we may call ſhe diuelles. They do aſſigne their habitation in the helles, and ſay that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people, moſt horribly aſwell in this worlde, as in the other. By the which they p. 249vnderſtand none other thing, but the torments and aſſaltes of the euill conſcience, and that worme which dyeth not, The vvorme of conſcience Eſa. 66. g. 24 Mar. 9. g. 41Isa 66Mark 9but gnaweth and deuoureth inceſſauntly.

Theophilus.

I doubt not. But let vsus ſée how y^• …el encreaſeth day by day. If the malefactor be alredy ſo much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vponupon him, before that he be put in priſon, before that he hath ben on the racke, vanquiſhed, iudged and condem…ned: Let vsus thinke what torment he ought to hauehave, beeing in priſon, after that his proceſſe is made and concluded, looking & tarying for his ſentence & cruel death eueryevery houre. In what anguiſh thinkeſt thou that he is in? Doeſt thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments, which are prepared for him, are vntounto him a great deale leſſe paine, then the torments and the death that hée looketh for?

Euſebius.

Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference, & that he dyeth ſo many times, as he liueth houres and minutes.

Theophilus.

Thou ſéeſt howe hée is already iudged, and yet hée is not. He is ſufficiently iudged and condemned as to himſelfe, ſith that he hath his conſcience, his confeſſion, his witneſſe and his proceſſe againſt himſelfe, and that he accompteth himſelfe alredy as dead. But neuertheleſſe, there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemēt, to heare the ſentence of his Iudge, to be condemned and executed openly, notwithſtanding y^t he is already ſufficiently condemned being in the priſon, yet neuertheles the Iudge muſt pronounce openly his laſt ſentence: & that his iudgement be put in execution. As much may wée ſay The degrees of the Iudgement of God.of the Diuels and reprobate. Whileſt that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde, they are lyke vntounto malefactors, before that they are apprehended and taken. When God calleth them from this worlde, hée cyteth them before hym, …or to appeare in iudgement: And they are as though they were caſt in priſon, lookinge for their latter ſentence, which ſhall bee giuen them in that great …aye, in which all proceſſe, all cauſes and appeales ſhall ende. Beholde the cauſe wherefore Sainct Peter maketh 2. Pet. 2. 2. 42 Pet 2:22 Pet 2:4mention of the bondes and chaines, with which GOD bindeth y^• diuels, which he hath reſerued to his iudgemēt, vſing humaine and materiall compariſons, for to declare vntounto vsus y^• heauenly & ſpirituall things. That is the cauſe wherefore the wicked ſpirites doe pray vntounto Ieſus Chriſt, that hée will not ſende them into the déepe, complaininge Mat. 8. d. 29 Mar. 5. 2. 7Matt 8Mark 5:2Mark 5:7and lamentinge, bicauſe that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh. And therefore they cried: O Ieſu thou ſonne of Dauid, art thou come hether, to torment vsus before our time be come? We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before, as the malefactor, which is in the …ockes and chaines. But they hauehave dreadful feare when they do ſée their Iudge, and that they doe féele their laſt ſentence to drawe nigh.

Thomas.

It is to be meruailed at, how the one of the matters bringeth in the other, and giueth vnderſtandinge of it. Thou haſt deliuered me from one great doubt, & thou The eſtate of y^• ſoules after they be ſeperated frō the bodyehaſt inſtructed me how I ought to aunſwere vntounto a very hard queſtion, the which was propunded vntounto me not long a goe: that is to ſay. If after that the ſoule is ſeperated from the body, whether y^• it goeth ſtraight way into Paradiſe, or into hell? For if it goeth into Paradiſe, or into hell, it ſeemeth that the iudgement is alredy done, & that we muſt tary no longer for it: or if we ought to looke and tary for an other, that y^• ſoules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull, hauehave not yet a place aſſigned vntounto them, for to receyue felicitie or malediction. And therefore ſome doe ſaye, that they ſleepe vntill that great iourney. But thou haſt taken from mée the doubt, and haſt ſatiſfied mee thorowly.

Theophilus.

Wee muſt not bee abaſhed, althoughe thoſe that ſleepe doe dreame. But we ought rather to bee The ſleepersabaſhed, to ſee thoſe that be awake to dreame, and to beleeue and giuegive credite vntounto the dreames of the ſleepers. For if it were ſo, the woorkes of God, agaynſt their nature, ſhould rather diminiſh then increaſe and th… faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de … then th… p. 250vnfaythfull: For by the death, the vnfaythfull ſhould bée at reſt, and the faythfull ſhoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie, the which they hauehave alredy taſted off in this world, the which they ought to hauehave mor amply, after that they be delyuered from the priſon of this mortall body. I beléeue moſt aſſure…ly, that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée muſt hauehave ſlepte ſo longe … in bodye and ſoule, after his deceaſe, wythout hauing more … ple fruition of the heauenly goodneſſe and ioyes, then hée had in this worlde, that hée would neuer hauehave ſayde. What to chooſe I wotto not: I am conſtrayned of two Philip. 1, c. 22.Phil 1thinges, I deſire to be looſed, and to bee wyth Chriſt which thing is beſt of all. Neuertheleſſe to abyde in the fleſhe is more néedfull for you. For in ſtéede to receyue more greater goodneſſe as hée deſired, hée was …mpayred and made worſe: and that portion of the heauenlye goodneſſe that hée had already taſted off, lyuing in thys bodye, was better for him, then to bée altogether ſpoyled of it, and to ſléepe, beeing inſenſible as a ſtone, two or thrée thouſande yeares.

Hillarius.

Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man, who was not very certeine nor aſſured of the eternall lyfe, nor perfectly reſolued of the immortalytie of the ſoules, but yet neuertheleſſe hee ſayth, that he would not lyue nyntie yeares, in ſuch ſorte, that after that he had depaſſed thrée ſcore yeares, hée ſhoulde ſléepe the reſidue of Tuſ…. q. …. …nentie yeares: But whiche is more, hée addeth is that matter: the Hogges woulde not deſyre that, muche leſſe I By that accompte, hée eſteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man, all the whyle as hée abydeth a ſléepe: bycauſe that the ſleeper is an Image of death, The Image of death.the whiche alwayes repreſenteth hymſelfe in ſléeping.

Theophilus.

And therefore I dooe conclude, that notwithſtandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath conſtituted and appointed that the bodyes doe ſléepe in the earth, as in their hedde, vntyll the reſurrectyon, that the number of their bretheren ſhalbe fulfilled, yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull, neuer are without their Paradiſe, & their hell: the which the more as they doe approch to their conſummation & ende, ſo much y^• more doe they encreaſe & augment, vntill ſuch time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicit…e or infelicitie: bene…iction or malediction.

Thomas,

After the ſame manner as thou procéedeſt, thou wilt leaue vsus neither Lymbe nor Purgatory.

Theophilus.

As touching the Lymbe, if one doe take it for the boſome of Abraham, and the condition of the …uncient fathers, which hauehave bene before the comming of Ieſus Chriſt. I will not much diſpute of the wordes, if we agrée in the thing. I am well contented to confeſſe, that the condition of the auncientes, as well thoſe that bée lining as thoſe that bée dead, compared vntounto ours, in reſpect of the ſame, may be eſtéemed as a priſon, in price of a 2, Cor. 5.palaice: If we doe beholde the ſhadowes and figures, vnderunder whoſe darkneſſe they hauehave bene deteyned and kept, in reſpect of vsus: and the ſeruitude and bondage of the Moſaicall lawe, vſinge ſuche compariſons as Sainct Paul: Gaſ… 4. …. 2who compareth all this auncient people vntounto young children, which are vnderunder their Tutor and Maſter: and vntounto ſeruauntes which are vnderunder the feare of their Maſter, in compariſon of the Chriſtian people: the which hée compaſeth vntounto the true natural & perfect children, which are already out of bōdage & gouernment, ſaying, that they hauehave not receiued y^• ſpirit of bondage & feare, but the ſpirit of adoption & of libertie, VponUpon which we ought to note, y^• the Ro…. …, …. …Apoſtle denieth not ſimply, but that thoſe good auncient fathers hauehave had the ſame ſpirit of adoption and of libertie, as we hauehave receiued, & but y^• they were the ſonnes of God, & as perfect in their eſtate & condition, altogether as wée. But for to magnifie y^• vertue & glory of Ieſus Chriſt, meaneth to ſhew vntounto vsus y^• the goodneſſe y^• we hauehave receiued by him in his cōming, are …ut any cōpariſon a great deale more excellēt: inſomuch y^• one may cal their light darknes, p. 251in regarde of ours: as he calleth that of Moſes, in compariſon 2. Cor. 32 Cor 3of that of Ieſus Chriſt. Touching the Purgatory, I hauehave already ſufficiently declared what I thincke of it. And I do not ſée that the place that is alledged of y^• booke The inſufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory. The example of Iudasof the Machabees, is ſufficient for to confirme it: although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued. For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited, it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke. For the perticuler examples of ſome, are no generall rules for all: euen as I hauehave alredy touched, ſpeaking of y^• example of Zipphora. Afterwardes, that witneſſe is all alone, & is there recyted, more for to allowe the reſurrection, and for a publike witneſſe of repentaunce, then for to induce to praye for the dead, as promiſinge deliueraunce from Purgatory, vntounto thoſe for whom it is offered.

Euſebius.

It is very true that the text ſayth expreſſely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the ſame, had a holy and a deuoute thought of the reſurrection, but it is ſayde immediatly afterwardes: that the aduiſe and thought to praye for the dead, to the ende they may bée deliuered from their ſinnes, is holy and well done.

Theophilus.

Yet the ſame concludeth nothing, for the Purgatory. For according to your doctrine, the ſoules which are in Purgatorye, are alreadye deliuered from their ſinnes, and there reſteth no more but the paine. And therefore wée ſhould rather ſaye, Vt à poems ſaluantur, that is to ſaye, that they maye bée deliuered from paines, then: Vt à peccatis ſaluantur: that they may bée deliuered from ſinnes.

Euſebius.

Thou doeſt not conſider that ſinne conteineth two things: to wit, the faulte and the paine. I confeſſe, Payne & faultethat the true Chriſtians, thorow the faith in Ieſus Chriſt, are deliuered from the fault. But it followeth not therefore, but that they muſt yet beare the paine and ſatiſfie in Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Whereto then ſerueth vsus Ieſus Chriſt. And whereto prof…teth us the forgiueneſſe of our ſinnes.

Euſebius,

Ieſus Chriſt ſerueth vsus to aboliſh the originall ſ…ne and the fault of our ſinnes, that they make vsus not culpable of eternall damnation, at the iudgement of God: and to mitigate and make leſſe the paine, the which we hauehave merited and deſerued.

Theophilus.

I can vnderſtande none other thing by Grace but halfethy ſpeaking, but that God is as a prince, who at the requeſt of one of his very friendes, or of the friende of the Malefactor, ſheweth grace vntounto the Malefactor, vponupon ſuch condition, that if he hauehave deſerued to bée burned, or to bée put vppon the whéele, that hée ſhoulde hauehave onelyonly but his head cut off: or if he had deſerued to hauehave had his head cut off, that hée ſhould hauehave but one of his eares cutte off, or that hée ſhould bée but onelyonly whipped: or that he ſhould be raunſomed with ſome peece of money, the which he was bound to pay, yet beſides his grace and pardon. Doeſt thou eſtéeme and thinke ſuch grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect? or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor?

Hillarius.

Not I.

Euſebius.

Is not that ſufficient inough, that Ieſus Chriſt hath deliuered vsus from eternall dampnation, and that wée doe the reſt if wée will: or otherwiſe we ſhould be ſaued to good cheape.

Hillarius.

Art thou afraide of that Euſebius? or art thou angry and not well content with the goodneſſe that God would doe vntounto vsus?

Theophilus.

Beholde Euſebius, what Ieſus Chriſt thou makeſt for vsus, and what credite thou giueſt him towards God his Father. If he cannot obteine for vsus perfect grace, Halfe a ſauiour.and ful forgiueneſſe from paine & fault, he is not a perfect Sauiour. And God is not God. For your owne Doctors do witneſſe, & namely Raymond, who as oftentimes as God Raymond.pardoneth any thing vntounto any one, he pardoneth him wholy. For otherwiſe God worketh not perfectly. Whervpon Vnde verſus Gratta magna Det, ventam non dimidiabit Aut nihil aut totum prop…tiando d…bi….they doe alledge the Verſes which I hauehave already once ſpoken off.

Hillarius.

By that accompt Ieſus Chriſt ſhould not hauehave ſo much power & credit as the Pope, who by his Buls and pardons, promiſeth ful forgiueneſſe of paine and p. 252fault. Graunt at the leaſt as much to the pardon of Ieſus The Pope more puiſſant then Chriſt. God compared vntounto tyrantsChriſt, as vntounto the Buls and pardons of the Pope.

Thomas.

Take héede Euſebius, thou make not God a Tyrant: who béeing not content to chaſtice & puniſh the revels and reprobate, cannot pardon thoſe which demaund grace and mercye, whatſoeuer requeſt one doe make vntounto him, but that he kéepeth ſtill ſome roote of ve…geaunce, without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vntounto him, but that hée receiue ſatiſfaction and recompence, either on his body or his goods. The heauenly Father 1. Tim. 2. b. 61 Tim 2béeing content with the raunſome of his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, for whoſe louelove he hath defaced & rent in péeces our bond, that our debtes and ſinnes doe come no more in remembraunce: or otherwiſe he ſhould not be true in hys promiſes, which he hath made vntounto vsus by his Prophetes and ſeruauntes.

Euſebius.

To what purpoſe is it then written. That it is a good thing to pray for the dead?

Theophilus.

Sith that the booke is not allowed nor receiued for autenticke in the true Church, that ſhoulde bée great folly to ſtay vponupon it any longer, if I would not beare with thine infirmitie, & content thée more fully. I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vntounto that which I hauehave ſpoken off.

Thomas.

Put it foorth.

Theophilus.

I hauehave ſomtimes thought, that that propoſition, which is as a concluſion, taken out of the hiſtory going before, was not put by the author of the ſayd booke: but rather of ſome ſtudiou… reader, which hath no…ed the ſame in the margent, and that it hath bene added to the text, as it oftentimes happ…neth in many good authors. And I am not alone in that opinion but many wiſe and learned men beſides mée. And if one doe examine the thing well, it is eaſy to ſée, y^• the continuation of the narration ſéemeth to be broken & marred, & that y^• ſentence hath ben put in, y^• which was a curtein annotation & conſequence, which ſome did make vponupon y^• text: as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes, & noting the places y^• which we would hauehave to ſerue vsus.

Euſebius.

What reaſon haſt thou for to proue the ſame?

Theophilus.

Firſt this, for that I ſée oftentimes the examples and copyes of many bookes to varye: the which varietie oftentimes is happened for ſuch cauſe. Furthermore, I conſider that in that time there was no mention made of Purgatorye. Wherefore if wée muſt praye for the dead, it is moſt lykeſt, that the prayer ſhould hauehave bene ordeyned to that ende that they ſhoulde be deliuered from the Lymbes, if there had bene any, then from the paines Prayers for the reſurrectionof Purgatory: or for the comming of Ieſus Chriſt and the reſurrection of the fleſh. But I doe not finde in all the holy Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Teſtament, that euer the Patriarches, Prophetes and Apoſtles, hauehave inſtituted or ordeyned, that one ſhoulde make anye ſpeciall or perticuler prayers, for the dead, neither for to drawe them from the Lymbes nor from Purgatorye, nor for the reſurrection of their bodyes. I will not denye, but that the holy Fathers hauehave greatly deſired the comming of Ieſus Chriſt, and but that according to their deſire they hauehave made earneſt prayers and requeſtes vntounto God, euen as we doe praye dayly, that Gods kingdome may come, deſiringe generally, all that which apperteineth to the fulfilling of the ſame. But it followeth not therefore, that wée muſt eſpecially ordeine perticuler prayers in y^• church, for to demaūd perticulerly all things apperteining vntounto y^• kingdome, & depending of the ſame. For in making ſuch prayers, wée regard not our ſelues nor our neighbour, but onelyonly the glory of God: the which we deſire to be eralted & magnified, w^tout conſideratiō of our perſons nor of others, but inſomuch as our health & ſaluation is ioyned together with y^• glory & …raltation of his kingdome: But not in ſuch ſort y^• it is required or requiſite to vſe any other manner of praiers, thō thoſe of which we hauehave the expreſſe worde of God, and the examples of the true ſeruants of God. And if it ſhould hauehave bene otherwiſe, it is impoſſible that God would hauehave omitted it, without making expreſſe mentiō in his holy ſcriptures, as I hauehave alredy ſufficiently declared vn to thée by reaſons ſo euident, that none can gaine ſay them.

p. 253Euſebius.

Thou wilt then conclude for a full reſolution that in the worde of God is no mention made of Purgatory, nor of prayers for the deade? and that we hauehave no néede to pray for them?

Theophilus.

I will abide firme and ſtedfaſt in that ſentence, vntill ſuch time as I hauehave founde aucthoritie, or example in the holy ſcripture worthy to be followed: the which I am certeine, that one ſhal not finde: except peraduenture we woulde pray for the deade, euen as Daniel, and other good Prophets, and princes of Iuda hauehave made confeſſion and prayers for their ſinnes, and thoſe of their fathers and predeceſſors: not Hovv one ma… pray for y^• dead Daniel, 9, … 4. Reg, 22. d 2. Cor 34. fto that end that God ſhoulde pardon thoſe which were already deade. For they cannot put to more, nor take away any thing from them, ſith that they were alreadie before their Iudge: But they praied to that ende that God ſhould not impute vntounto them the ſinnes of their fathers. Euſebius. Howe ſhoulde he impute them? ſith that he hath ſaid by his Prophet: The ſonne ſhall not beare the fathers Ezech, 18. e. 20offences, but the ſoule that ſinneth ſhall dye.

Theophilus.

I doe agrée to thée, that if the father hath Hovv the child beareth y^• offc̄ce of his father.béene wicked and the ſonne do turne from his iniquitie not willing to followe it, that the iniquitie of the father cannot hurt hym, no more then his righteouſneſſe can profite him, if the father hath béene a good man & the ſonne wicked: But when the ſonne is a folower of his fathers iniquitie, ſith that by hys doings he alloweth it, he yeldeth himſelfe culpable not onelyonly of his owne, but of hys fathers alſo, to the which he ſubſcriveth & augmenteth it. And of thoſe the Lord ſpeaketh when he ſaith: that he wil viſite the ſinne of the fathers vponupon the children vntounto the Exo. 20. a 5Exod 20thirde and fourth generation of them that hate him. Therfore, when the Lordo did threaten to puniſh hys people, and that he yeldeth the cauſes of his yre and wrath, he 4. Reg. 17checketh them not onelyonly for the ſinnes of the liuing, but heapeth together & rehearſeth alſo al thoſe of their aunceſtors and predeceſſors. And our Lord Ieſus Chriſt menaced & threatned the Scribes & Phariſes: that al the innocēt bloud which was ſhedde from Abell, ſhall be required at Mat 23. d 35 Luc, 11, g, 5…Matt 23their hands. Wherefore we muſt not finde it ſtraunge, if the Prophetes and true ſeruants of God in their confeſſions & prayers, hauehave prayed for the ſinnes of their fathers and predeceſſors, that they ſhould not be called to accompt for to kindle and prouoke the wrath of God any more vppon them, the which thing in like manner hath Iudas Machabeus done, as the hiſtorye witneſſeth, in the which it is written, y^• they found vnderunder the cotes of thoſe that were ſlaiue, iewels that they had taken out of the temple & from 2. Mach 12. f. 4c2 Macc 12the Idolles of the Iamnites, which thing is for…idden the Iewes by the lawe. Then eueryevery man ſaw, that this was the cauſe wherefore they were ſlaine. And ſo eueryevery man gaue thanks vntounto the Lorde for hys righteous iudgement which had opened the thing that was hyd. They fel downe alſo vntounto their prayers, and beſought God, that the fault which was made, might be put out of remembrance. For we cannot denye, but that ſometime, for the ſinne of one man alone, God puniſheth all the people: As it appeareth Acham. Ioſua. 7. c. 18Josh 7in Acham. Which defiled his hands at the diſtruction of Iericho. But how oftentimes hath God puniſhed the cruelty of the fathers and predeceſſors, vponupon their ſucceſſors and their children? as doe witneſſe as well the hiſtoryes as the Prophecies of y^• Amelechites, Moabites, Amonites, Madianites, Idumeans, Babylonians and of the Iſraelytes themſelues.

Euſebyus.

That which thou ſaieſt ſhould hauehave ſome ſhew, if that place did not make expreſſe mention of prayer, to the end that thoſe that were deade ſhoulde be deliuered from their ſinnes, as though they themſelues had béene yet bound and kept in them.

Theophilus.

Although that the Hovv thoſe that are dead are puniſhed in their ſucceſſours.dead, in aſmuch as they hauehave alreadie ended their courſe, hauehave no more place of repentance, nor of remedy, of whom, we hauehave certeine witnes in the word of God, yet neuertheles bicauſe of the conioſiction & felowſhip which they hauehave had with their families, or with their people, there is no doubt, but that their ſinnes, which do redound vponupon others p. 254in part, bicauſe of them, and for which it muſt be that others do ſuffer, and that their ſinnes be vntounto them aggrauated, cannot rightly be called theirs. For notwithſtāding y^• for their part, they hauehave receiued already puniſhment, neuertheles they kindred and familyes, as it happened vntounto Achab, and to all his houſe. And we muſt not thinke that 4. Reg. 10. a. 1.puniſhment little, ſith that oftentymes, the fathers and parents do feare more the diſhonour and domage vntounto their children and lynage, then their owne, as we do ſée ſometime by experience in thoſe which are brought to the gallowes, who although they cauſe thē to dye without ſhewing merciemercy, yet they thinke it a greate grace and fauour, if one graunt them, that they wil not let their bodyes to hange on the Gibet, for feare of diſhonour & infamy: the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vntounto their parēts & friends then vntounto them. But they forget themſelues: or rather they think that they do yet foele & ſhal féele that diſhonour, infamye and publike ſhame, which ſhall continue to their infants and lynage. And although that they bée ſufficiently tormented with their euill, yet neuertheleſſe they féele a great eaſe and refreſhing if they vnderſtande that their children hauehave none euill: & their torment is aggrauated and increaſed, if they vnderſtande the contrarie. For that cauſe the Prophetes doe threaten not onelyonly the wicked ſort of their owne ruine and diſtruction, but doe foreſhewe vntounto them that of their children, and the euilles whiche ſhall happen vntounto them, as it appeareth in the prophecy of Eſaie againſt Babylon, and others Eſa. 13. & 14.Isa 13like. But for to ſtoppe all thoſe euills, and for to appaiſe the wrath of God kindled vponupon vsus, as well for our ſinnes as thoſe of our fathers, there is no better prayers nor offrings then to runne with true repentance & amendemēt of life, to implore his mercy. Behold the good prayers for y^• deade, to that ende that their ſinnes be not counted wiſh ours. Although that it be after whatſoeuer manner & … wilt take that place, it ſufficeth móe at this preſent, to hauehave ſhewed vntounto thée, that thou canſt not by the ſame proue thy purgatory, although that the booke ſhoulde bée of the holy ſcripture. And if thou wilt giuegive vntounto it any credit, it may better ſerue thée, for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory. But ſith that Ieſus Chriſt is come and that you confeſſe that he hath drawen the …athers from the Lymbes, the example of Iudas Machabeus can hauehave no more place among you: ſith that according To pray for the reſurrection of the body & the cōming of chriſtto your doctrine, the cauſe is ceaſed.

Euſebius,

Put caſe, that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory, can we not at the leaſt pray for the reſurrection of the deade? And for the ſeconde comming of Ieſus Chriſt, the which we doe looke for, as well as the auncyent fathers hauehave prayed for the firſt, and hauehave deſired and ſighed after it?

Theophilus.

We may well pray, as I hauehave alreadye ſaide, and aſke of God, all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome: But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade, and to pray in perticuler, Apoc. 6. c, 10Rev 6that God woulde raiſe vp againe the bodyes of thoſe which are deade, and that Ieſus Chriſt would ſoone come to iudgement, I hauehave no commaundement of God, nor example in all the holy ſcripture, but rather to the contrary. For when the Lorde aunſwered vntounto the ſoules of the ſaints (which complayned of their perſecutors) that they ſhoulde …arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled, he doth ſufficiently ſhewe by the ſame, that he hath prefered the tyme, the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe. And ſith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all aſſured, what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers?

Euſebius.

We are aſmuch aſſured, that all thinges which ought to come, are paſſed by the counſell of God, and that he will giuegive vsus Eſa. 40 c. 13 Eſa. 14. … 26Isa 40Isa 14:26all that which ſhalbe requiſite to our helth and ſaluation: that all the haires of our heade are numbred: and none ſhall fall to the grounde without his wyll: and his kingdome Mat. 10. d. 29 Luc. 12. …. 7Matt 10Luke 12ſhall ſhall come and ſhall be exalted aboue all creatures, p. 255but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually … to demaunde thoſe thinges of God.

Theophilus.

It is an other thing of vsus, which are yet in our voiage & earthly peregrination, … of thoſe which hauehave alreadie ended their courſe: vntounto whome we can no more add too nor dimyniſh. For all the while that we are yet in the battaile, we may empaire or amende, and we hauehave alwayes néede to inuocate and call for the aide of God, both for vsus and for our bretheren which are yet in combate & fight with vsus. And which is more, God commaundeth vsus ſo to do: not that he Mat. 6. d. 33 &, 7. b. 8 Luc. …. b. 9Matt 6knoweth not better then we, what we do lacke, before we do aſke, and that hee is not willing to giuegive it vsus, but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vsus in his feare, & to learne vsus to ſanctifie his name & to exerciſe our faith towards him, and our louelove towardes our neighboure, whileſt that wée may ſerue him in this mortall peregrination. But after that the voctorie is gotten or loſt, and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port, to which he muſt go, the cauſe and the occaſion is no more ſuch.

Euſebius.

Thou haſt ſaide before that the ſoules of the bleſſed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie. Alſo wee cannot denye, but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death, ſith that they are in corruption, from the which they ſhal not be 1. Cor. 15.1 Cor 15deliuered vntill their reſurrection, that death ſhalbe altogether aboliſhed. What euill is it then to pray for the deade, that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption, and that they may hauehave their perfect conſummation in bodie and ſoule.

Theophilus.

I hauehave alreadie ſatiſfied thée in that, if thou vnderſtandeſt what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade. And although we had none other thing but that, the ſcripture maketh no expreſſe commaſidement, that ought to ſuffice thée, For if it were a queſtion To pray for the Sainctes vvhichwhich are in Paradiſe.to worke ſubtilly and ſophiſtically in the worde of god, I ſhoulde well hauehave aſmuch reaſon to put forth, that wée muſt make prayers in perticuler, for the virgin Marye: for all the Prophets, Apoſtles, Saints, and Saintes of Paradiſe: Yea for the Angells, and for Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe.

Hilla…ius.

It ſhoulde be requiſite then by that accompt, to make out of hand a newe Letany. In ſtéede where the Pr…eſtes do ſing, ſaint Michael, pray for vsus: A nevy Letanyſaint Mary mother of God, pray for vsus: ſaint Peter, pray for vsus: and ſo conſequently of others, we muſt ſay, O Lorde we pray and beſeech thée, for ſaint Michael, ſaint Gabriel, ſaint Mary, ſaint Peter, ſaint Paul, …nd …or all the ſaints and ſaintes of Paradiſe, that thou do put them in full …oye, and perfect …elicitie, and that th…u …aiſe vp their bodyes to eternall glorie.

Theophilus.

If our d…e examine well the greateſt part of the prayers, which the prieſtes make for the deade, euen as they are written in their Meſſell and Breuiaries, one ſhalbe conſtrained …o confeſſe that ſuch prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of thoſe whome they do inuocate and call vponupon in their Letanyes, and that they be of like condition.

Hillarius.

I hauehave heard the Cordeliers mocke at Frier Fryer Chriſtopher. Maſſe of Req…em for the Sainctes.Chriſtofer, which was one of their order and couent, b…cauſe that he did ſing the Maſſe of Requiem, for the Saints and Saintes of Paradiſe. But if he had knowen howe to defende his cauſe, it had not béene without reaſ…n. For he might hauehave verie wel alledged for his warrant, the Memento of the dead, and almoſt all the maſſe of Requiem, and other like prayers which ſeemed not to hauehave …en made to any other end, then to pray for y^• ſaints which are in reſt. This ma…ſter Dector who would find out for vsus a newe manner to pray for the dead, vnderunder …olour of the reſurrection & of the cōming of Ieſus Chriſt, it came well for him, for to mainte…e & vphold his cauſe againſt the other Cordeliers, which mocked him.

Thomas.

Of what Couent was that Frier Chriſtofer:

Hillarius.

Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua.

Thomas,

Wherfore did he ſing y^e Maſſe of Requiem, for the ſaintes?

Hillarius

p. 256Thou oughteſt to vnderſtand that he was a man ſo expert in Theology, and ſo wel exerciſed in bookes, that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Miſſell and Brauerie. Wherefore he could ſing but the Maſſe of Requiem, the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart, and it ſerued him as a plaiſter for all ſores, and diſeaſes.

Theophilus.

He did better then all y^e others. For as there is but one baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt One onelyonly baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt.and not the baptiſme of ſaint Peter, of S. Paul, nor of any other whatſoeuer it be, ſo there is but one ſupper of Ieſus Chriſt. There is not of ſaint Fraunces, ſaint Tybaud, ſaint Roch, and of other like innumerable. Nowe if the Maſſe be in ſtéede of the ſupper, there ought to bée but one: and we ought not to ſay the Maſſe of ſaint Paul, ſaint Iames and of other ſaints, no more then of the ſupper and of the Baptiſme.

Thomas.

And howe dyd he make his maſſe of Requiem agrée with the ſaints?

Hillarius.

In ſtéede where others doe name thoſe, in whoſe name they do ſing the Maſſe in their Mementos and Oremus, he dyd but chaunge the names, and name thoſe of the ſaints vnderunder the tytle of which he ought to ſing Maſſe, euen as he ſhould hauehave done for one that is dead. Thomas. I doe vnderſtand his practiſe nowe. He was not altogether without wit. And as much y^• Maſſe of Requiem ſerued him all alone, as all the other did to his compagnions.

Hillarius.

All one.

Thomas.

But who is that doctor of whō thou ſpeakeſt off?

Hillarius.

It is Monſiour the Carolus.doubtful, which is come out of the Charbo…iere or Colehouſe of Parys, I would hauehave ſaid from Sorbonne. Thomas.

What is his name?

Hillarius.

I would name hym but y^• I feare I ſhal do him pleaſure.

Thomas.

Pleaſure? nay rather diſpleaſure?

Hillarius.

I doe not tel ſcorne to ſpeake, For thou oughteſt to vnderſtand, that the man, of whom I hauehave told thée is ſo much ambitious & couetous of name & fame, that it is al one to him, ſo that men ſpeake of him.

And I beléeue, that if hée coulde obteine that by any ſuch prooues, as that of Heroſtratus, who burned the … of Diana the Epheſian, for to make himſelfe to Horoſtratus… ſpoken off, he woulde doe no leſſe. And I woulde to God that he did no worſe, then he. For Heroſtratus burned a temple full of Idols, which cauſed al Aſia to commit Idolatrie. But this fellowe here, as the Gyants dyd, The vvar of the Gyantswould make war againſt the heauen: fight againſt God: burne his temple, and reſiſt the holy Ghoſt, and the truth that he hath knowen.

Theophilus.

He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath beene: But god hath alwayes confounded him, with all his enterpriſes. God hauehave mercy on him, except he be of thoſe which ſinne vntounto death, for whom ſaint Iohn hath writtē that we muſt Sinne vntounto death. 1. Iohn, 5. d. 16 Iſmael. Geneſ. 16. c. 12,Gen 16not pray for. I can giuegive him no fitter a name, then that of Iſmael, whoſe hand is againſt al men, and al mens hands againſt him.

Hillarius.

It is impoſſible to finde out a better compariſon. For he could neuer agrée with any man, among thoſe with whom he hath liued & dwelled, whether thy were Goſpellers or papiſtes: but hath troubled them all, and they hauehave béene conſtrayned to chaſe and driue him away from them, as a plague and troubler of the Church.

Theophilus.

Therefore the true church of Ieſus Chriſt hath béene conſtrayned to driue him out of hir houſe, Gal. 4. d. 30Gal 4euē as Sara did driue away Iſmael with his mother Agar, bicauſe that he mocked hir ſonne Iſaac, in ſuch manner Sara and Agar. Iſaac & Iſmael. Geneſ 21. b, 9Gen 21as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of God. And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull ſonne, but ſent him out after his mother Agar. For he is more fitter for the Sinagog, then for the Church.

Hillarius.

What thinkeſt thou, who hath induced and perſuaded him to propounde ſo many curious, vaine and vnprofitable queſtions, for to trouble that poore church of Lauſanne, of which he thought to hauehave beene made biſhop, The church of Lauſanne.and was alreadie by his imagination. Bicauſe that hée p. 257was already olde, and that he had a gray heard, I am abaſhed how that he could not thincke well y^• thoſe ſubtile Sorboniſts did not agrée with that poore Church, the which was yet tender and newly planted, and but a graſſe.

Theophilus.

I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart 3. Reg. 2. g 44 Pſal. 139. b. 23 Act. 1. d. 241 Kgs 2Ps 139Acts 1vntounto God, who knoweth it: But as farre as I can iudge by his workes, and by his beginning, procéeding and ending, I cannot perceiue and vnderſtand but that hée dyd it for two cauſes chiefly. Firſte to pleaſe the Papiſtes, Apoſtles of the circumciſ…on. Gal. 5. a Phil. 3. aGal 5Phil 3euen as the Apoſtles of the circumciſion went about and endeuoured themſelues to pleaſe the Iewes, and to holde with them, for to auoide the croſſe and perſecution, and to hauehave their fauour, and for to make the true Apoſtles of Ieſus Chriſt more odious vntounto all the world. The other is, for to ſhew himſelfe, and for to get the brute and report that he was a wiſe man, more expert and of more knowledge, then all other preachers, and that there was Vayne glorynone that ſearched out and vnderſtood the holy Scripture ſo profoundly as hée. For he was angry that he dyd ſée others, which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God, and the edifiyng of the Church to be of ſome eſtimation towards the good. And therefore he would inuent a certein new faſhion, proper vntounto himſelfe alone, to the end that he ſhould not ſéeme that he had brought no new thing, but that he had learned ſome thing of others. Therefore he was aſhamed to follow their way, and went about but to renue all things, for to let men to vnderſtande, that all that which others had made, was nothing worth, but that he was the great reformer of Churches, and yet neuertheleſſe be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners.

Hillarius.

I hauehave vnderſtanded that he called the good miniſters, ſkirmiſhers, who, for to aduance the goſpel, hauehave Skirmi…shers.broken the firſt I…e or giuē the firſt onſet, and which hauehave put their heades, there where he dareth not to put his litle finger.

Theophilus.

Alſo he himſelfe hath ſayd, in diſpiſing others, that he was not of thoſe ſmall ſkirmiſhers. But it was anſwered him to the contray, that he auailed then nothing in warre, & that he was not worthy to be taken for a good ſouldier: For a good champion muſt know to doo all thinges, and that he muſt bée found amongeſt the blowes and in the ſkirmiſhes and alaromes, not onelyonly at the retraict, and to receiue wages. He diſpiſed the ſimplicitie of the holy Scripture, and calleth the Theology inferiour and baſe, and would forge and inuent for vsus a metaphiſicall The metaphiſicall Theology.Theology.

Hillarius.

Alſo peraduenture he would by the ſame as wel extract the fifth eſſence of the holy Scriptures, as the Alcumiſts do of mettals. At the leaſt, I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphiſicall Theology, as of the Alcumy, which hath a faire ſhew & to be of great value, but it conſumeth away into ſmoke. He ſpeaketh neuertheles againſt the Purgatory of Prieſtes. Wherefore I am abaſhed of that which I hauehave heard ſpoken, that at this preſent he endeuoureth himſelfe to ſet it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz, y^• which he is gone to trouble, when he vnderſtood that Ieſus Chriſt would raigne there: But I greatly doubt, that the kitchin conſtraineth him to the ſame. For otherwiſe the har…th woulde be colde. But hée may as well doe that, as to be angry & pleaſed againe, and ſo many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate.

Theophilus.

We may well make him ſuch a monſter, as Euſe. de pra e…an. …. 14. ca. 2Euſebius Ceſarienſis did make of the Philoſopher Archeſilaus, in his bookes of the preparation of the Goſpell, and Archeſilaus.to compare it to him, of whom he writeth in theſe words. They ſayd of him, that as touchinge his fore partes, hée was Plato, and as to the hinder partes, Pyrro, & the middle Diodorus. For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato, thorow the ſubtilties and ſophiſtries of the Philoſopher Diodorus, and by the ſubtile diſputations of Pyrrho: and now ſaying this, by and by that, he was eaſily rolled and lead now héere and now there, as a man not knowing any thing, and hauinge no reſt: And yet neuertheleſſe he ſéemeth thorow the ſhadow of eloquence, that he knoweth much: & he was neuer in that minde, y^• he would p. 258ſay twice one thing, and that hee woulde abide firme and ſteedfaſt in one opinion. For hée eſtéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie, which preſerued & continued in one matter and doctrine. And therefore he was called a cauiller, ſophiſter and troubler, which knew nothing, and would not y^• others ſhould perceiue any thing. He troubled eueryevery one thorow his ſophiſtries, & was as the ſerpent called Hydra.Hydra, which hath ſeauen heads: But he cutteth them off with his owne ſwoord, ſpeaking agaynſt & gainſaying his owne Doctrine, denying that whiche hee hath affirmed, and deſtroyinge that whiche hee before hath buylded.

Hillarius.

It is impoſſible to painte him out better. For Gerion.he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies. He is a Papiſt, an Euangeliſt and a Lutherian. He is a Sophiſter and a Sorboniſt, and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Chriſtian, and holdeth himſelfe neither to the one nor yet to the other. Hydra had neuer ſo many heads, as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other, and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off, then himſelfe. For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to ſpeake, as vntounto the wicked ſpiri…es, is a Hercules ſufficient Hercules.inough for to vanquiſh the falſe doctrine, that he now mainteineth.

Theophilus.

By the ſame thou maiſt know the ſtudye Mat. 8. b. 14. Ma…. 1. c. 29Matt 8of Sathan, and how many wayes he tranſfigureth himſelfe into an Angell of light: and what is the nature of the 2. Cor. 11. d. 1…2 Cor 11falſe Prophets. God by all his Prophets & Apoſtles hath commended to vsus the faith in him, and the louelove towardes A ſigne for to iudge the falſe and true Prophets.the liuing, without making any mention y^• we ſhuld hauehave care of the dead. The Diuell to the contrarye, by his falſe Prophetes and Apoſtles, endeuoureth himſelfe with all his power, to drawe vsus from the fayth, vntounto vayne Ceremonies, and from the care that wée ought to hauehave of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST, which with vsus doe ſuffer want and indigence, for to make vsus ſtaye after the deade. They bring them meat and drinke, and ſuffer the poore Chriſtian bretheren which are round about them to dye for hunger. This miſerable Doctor, perceiuing that he could not A nevv tranſfiguration of Sathan.ther where he was, maintein the Purgatory of y^• Prieſts, and their broiling of ſoules, be would ſet vp a new Purgatory for the body. But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about, he is retourned to cary a coale to the ſame Purgatory for the body.of the Prieſts, for to heate it againe. Wherein he manifeſtly declareth, what faith and conſcience he hath, & how much one ought to truſt to his doctrine.

Hillarius.

Mée thinketh, that he ſhould hauehave no leſſe appearance, to build a Purgatory for the body, then the Prieſtes to hauehave builded one for the ſoules. For if there be any reaſon, wherefore the ſoules ought to ſuffer for their ſinnes, after that man is dead, me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée, but that he hath more merited it, bicauſe that he was the occaſion thorow his fleſh, and the inſtrument for to make the ſoulé to ſinne. Wherefore if you thincke Euſebius, that God ſhould be vniuſt, as thou haſt alledged, if he doe not puniſh the ſoules of the ſinners in Purgatory, he ſhould be no leſſe, if he doe not puniſh the bodyes in lyke manner, which hauehave ben alwayes companions & inſtruments to the ſoules, in all the ſinnes that they hauehave committed. And therefore God wil not onelyonly puniſh the ſoules of the reprobate in hel fire, but the bodies alſo: euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and ſoule, in the reſurrection of the Iuſtes.

Theophilus.

Alſo this good Doctor would giuegive vsus to vnderſtand, ſithence y^• he hath entred into that dreaming, that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead, were for the bodyes, and for their reſurrection, and not for the ſoules: and condempneth the Prieſtes and their Purgatory, and be made no doubt to ſaye, that we muſt pray for the Saintes: for Saint Peter, S. Paul, and the others, in ſuch ſence as he vnderſtandeth, euen as it hath bene touched.

Thomas,

I doe vnderſtand well of whom you ſpeake. p. 259I remember, that at the diſputation which was holden at Lauſanne, he ſpake cléerely, not onelyonly againſt the Purgatory of Prieſtes, but alſo againſt the tranſubſtanciacion and corporall preſence of Ieſus Chriſt in the hoaſt.

Theophilus.

It is true, but in the meane time, thou takeſt no héede of the ſubtiltie of Sathan, and by what means he would be ſerued of that Sorboniſt doctors. Bicauſe y^• Sathan did ſée thoſe errors to be already too much vncouered and opened, & that hée had no more hope to vphold them, chiefely in thoſe Churches héere aboutes, hée hath choſen this inſtrument, for to ſet foorth that opinion, the which could not ſerue to any edification, but for to trouble the Church, chiefly in this time now, that the opinions of men are ſo diuerſe, For how goodly a reaſon ſoeuer he can alledge, notwithſtanding that he condempneth openly the Purgatory of the Prieſtes, and their ſuffrages for the dead, yet neuertheleſſe, ſith that hée putteth foorth that propoſition: we muſt praye for the dead: It were impoſſible, but that in eueryevery pointe, it ſhould he euill ſpoken A troubleſome doctrine.off and offenſiue. For the Idolaters and ſuperſtitions, which were yet in their olde errour, touching that matter, doe drawe that propoſition to their aduauntage, to the confirmation of their Purgatory, and care not for all his other reaſons and ſophiſtries, the which the moſt part cannot vnderſtand, others wil not. It is mough for them that they can ſay: Monſieur the Doctor hath preached, that we muſt pray for the dead. They doe arme themſelues with that propoſition, againſt the truth, as with a buckler, and doe condemne more boldly the holeſome doctrine. The other poore ſimple people, which hauehave already ſome knowledwe of the abuſes, were not alſo without being troubled, fearing to hauehave ben euill taught. For all could not eaſily comprehend thoſe ſophiſticall ſubtilties, but doe abide in perplexitie. Notwithſtanding that that dreame which hée did put foorth, was not newe: It hath alreadye at an other time bene put foorth by others, the which yet neuertheleſſe they hauehave not followed. Thoſe which were beſt inſtructed and moſt firme in the doctrine of the Goſpell, although that they had their ſpirites ſharpe inough for to comprehend that which they ſayd, yet they were not out of daunger. For ſith that this propoſition abideth and continneth: we muſt pray for the dead: And this héere, the Church hath alwayes duely p…ayde for them that they ſhould be deliuered from death: it was much to be feared, that by ſucceſſion of time, but that they ſhould fall againe to the firſt errour, and that the Diuell which was driuen away, would retourne againe with ſeauen other wicked ſpirites, worſe then the firſt. For after that the vnderſtanding of man hath bene corrupted thorowe ſome falſe opinion, he is eaſy to fall agayne, and to withdrawe from Mat. 12. d. 44.Matt 12his purpoſe all that whiche approcheth any thinge at all.

Hillarius.

I doubt not, but that the ſame was the marke, to which Sathan pretented: the which he hath yet better declared, when be induced and perſwaded that poore man to returne againe, as the dogge, to eate that which he had vomited, and to bay and …arke agaynſt the miniſters of the truth, enforcing and endeuouring himſelfe to reedif…e the errours and hereſies, which he had before condempned and deſtroyed.

Theophilus.

It is a great deale better that he declared himſelfe what he was, then to dwell in the Church of Ieſus Chriſt for to trouble it, and to ende that that he hath taken in hande. For in ſtéede, whereas before they did but ſing Maſſe for the dead, whome they preſumed to bée deteined and kepte in Purgatorye, they muſt alſo ſing Maſſe and offer for the Saintes which are in Paradiſe, according to his Theologye. For it ſhoulde hauehave bene as eaſie to giuegive coulour vntounto ſuch Maſſes, as the ſcholaſticall Doctors doe giuegive vntounto thoſe which they doe ſinge in the name of younge children, which are dead in their innocencie, immediately after their baptiſme.Maſſes for the young children

Thomas.

What néede hauehave they? For I beléeue that they will not denye, but that they accompte them for ſaued.

p. 260Theophilus.

They confeſſe that they are in Paradiſe? Tho. diſt. 12. li. 4. deffc. enche. Reiſerſp. de. mor. v…rt. Sermo dom. …. aduent.and that they hauehave no néede to doe it for their ſaluation: But they affirme that it is good yet neuerthelſſe to ſinge Maſſe for them, for to ſignifie & witneſſe y^• they are of the Church, & members of his miſticall body. And ſo by that meanes, the Prieſtes cannot fayle to get money of eueryevery ſide, both of the olde and younge: or vnderunder the title of Purgatory, or of the communion of the Church, or of the reſurrection of the body, or of the conſummation of the eternall ſelicitie. In ſo dooing, they muſt yet at the ende come to pray for Ieſus Chriſt, and to ſinge maſſes for him, as for his members, vntill ſuch time as his kingdome hée fully conſummated and ended, and that he hath put all his enimies vnderunder his footſtoole.

Thomas,

Now I hauehave heard al your matters and wel conſidered of them, I knowe that we hauehave bene meruailouſly abuſed, Wherefore from hencefoorth I remit and forgiue the Prieſtes, I will ſtaye my ſelfe but onelye to the pure word of GOD. As touchinge my voyage, I am come backe agayne. I hauehave ſéene that which I deſired to knowe. I thincke that Euſebius is as much preſſed and ouercome as I, and that hee hath no more greater harneys nor weapons for to defend his Purgatorye nor his Lymbes, Euſebius. It is moſt certeine that I hauehave my ſpirit much troubled with ſo many matters, and not without cauſe. But neuertheleſſe I hauehave not yet all diſployed and ſhewed foorth my argumentes & reaſons. You hauehave nowe robbed me of the place whiche I hauehave propounded vntounto you of the booke of the Machabees, vnderunder the tytle that it was Apocripha: But thoſe that I will propound vntounto you now, ſhalbée taken out of bookes ſo Autentickes and Canonicall, that you can by no meanes reiect them. And if you can ſhewe by euydent reaſons, that I dooe not alledge them to the purpoſe, and that they do ſerue mée nothing at all for to proue my intention, I will confeſſe my ſelfe vanquiſhed, and wyll giuegive you my hand for to be of your ſide.

Hillarius,

What pretendeſt thou to mainteine by them, either the Lymbe of the young children, and the baptiſme of women: or the Lymbe of the auncient fathers: or the Purgatory? For Theophilus hath ouerthrowne this day all that.

Euſebius.

Thou ſhalt vnderſtande it, when thou ſhalt heare it. But at this time we hauehave ſufficiently inough diſcuſſed of the matters at one time, and there r… maineth yet inough for a good while. Yet neuertheleſſe I doe hope that we ſhall ſée the ende.

Thomas.

I deſire the ſame very much, and that wée may agrée as ſoone as ſhalbe poſſible, that we may all abide and continue of one good reſolution.

Theophilus.

God giuegive vsus his grace, as I hope hée will.