Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 35
The XXXV. Chapter.
NOw ſeeing that you hauehave viſited our garden, if a man maie bee ſo bold, I pray lend vsus the keies, that we may in like maner viſite yours, & that we may ſee the fruits of your religion. Read al the hiſtories writē frō the paſſion of Chriſt to our daies, & you ſhal find, that al thoſe ſects that hauehave left our Roman Church, hauehave done more miſchiefe in one yeare,aYour Romiſh Church that now i…, is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church, as euer any heretiques went frō it, and of you eſpecially your ſaying is t…ue. being ſeperated from the ſaied Church, then they did in an hūdred years before. But becauſe our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predeceſſors, enemies to the Catholique Church, it ſhall ſuffiſe to make a ſhort diſcourſe of thoſe that hauehave bene of late daies, I meane the Bohemians or Huſsites, whoſe followers you doe affirme your ſelues to be: for in your godly booke of Martyrs,bThis is vntrue, as eueryevery one that wil view the …ct, and monumēts of the Church, writen by maſter Fox, may ſee. you hauehave placed Iohn Hus as the firſt Martyr of your anciēt Church (who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone) euē as we accōptcYour religion and Stephens agree …o wel, that if hee were aliue again, you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes, to ſtone him, whatſoeuer you ſay of him now, he being deade. S. Stephē to be the firſt Martyr of our Church. Now, to know, whither ye…e of the opiniō of the Huſsites or no, that I leaue for ſome other time, and for this preſent, I am content to condeſcende to that that you hauehave writen, I meane, that Iohn Hus did preach your Goſpell, and made a number of ſuch faithfull perſons as you are, and that hee ſuffered death to ſuſtaine your Religion. Then let vsus ſee, what good fruit this did produce vntounto vsus: thoſe that hauehave writen the ſtories of Boheme, and among othersdYour authour you know was a great papiſt, and afterwardes a Pope, & therfore worthily he is to be ſuſpected as a partiall reporter, and yet cap. 35. before, he is enforced to cōfeſſe that the Senate had ſecretly murdered ſo many of thoſe that called the Pope Antichriſt, that the bloud of thē running out of the gate bewraied it, whereupon this and ſome other extremities followed. Aeneas Siluius, doe teſtifie, that in the yeare of our Lorde God. 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Huſſite in the citty of Prage, which is the Metropolitane of that kingdome, the which accompanied with a number of companions as zelous as himſelfe, they did execute ſo horrible a cruelty, that eleuen of the principall magiſtrates were driuen to flye from the Citty, to ſaue their liues, and ſeuen more (for in all they were 18.) being taken by them, they did caſt them out at the windowes of their owne houſes, and did kill them with their ſpeares as they fell. This was done, Sigiſmondus being then Emperour, in the time of Martin the firſt Pope of Rome of that name, & Vneſlaus being then king of Boheme. The next yeare after the death of this ſaied Vneſlaus: they did ſpoileaThis al, is too much and more then either your authour, or the euidence of the matter, wil beate by far. al the monaſteries, Abbeies and Churches of of the ſaied kingdome. And among others, one Iohn Ziſcha, who was their captaine in the Cittie of Prage, he made them all paſſe through the edge of the ſworde, without ſparing man, woman or childe. And the like was done in another towne of the ſaied kingdome called Meſſim, the yeare 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties, they did not care, whither thoſe of their cōpany were of their ſect or no,bThis is your ſlander for any thing that I can ſee in your author, or any where elſe but indeed no p…ople ſ… barbarous but you cā finde in your hearts to vſus… them againſt good Chriſtians: yea he hath bene a Pope of Rome that hath betraied a Chriſtian Emperour into the h…nd… of the Turkes, for ſo dealt Gregory 9. with the Emper…ur Fredericke. witnes Caſpinian. for ſome were Idumeans, ſome Paleſtines, ſome Moabites, and ſome other Amelecites: euen as of your bountifull goodneſſe ye call all thoſe that will not be of your ſect, Papiſts, Infidels, Hypocrites & Idolaters: and therefore we may iuſtly ſaie, that you are their right heares apparent, although yee hauehave gone ſomewhat before them, and (as our ſauiour ſaied) accompliſhed the meaſures of your fathers by the heroicall acts that you hauehave done in this (cYou may wholy thanke your ſelues for the deſolate eſtate of France. almoſt deſolate) kingdome of France, there needeth no other witnes to proue it, but the teſtimonie of your owne eies and eares, which hauehave hearde and ſeene more almoſt then any man can write. Therefore I beſeech you, not to reproch any more the abuſes of our eccleſiaſticall miniſters: for although it be ſo, that they hauehave neede of ſome reformation, yet I doe thinke it is neceſſarie to chooſe ſome better ſtaied perſons then you aredIf you may be iudge, this wil eaſily be the ſentence for you hauehave done more harme in fiue yeares, then ours hauehave done in 1500. S. Auguſtine in the firſt booke of the cittie of God,eCapite 1. you might hauehave added. doeth magnifie in the Chriſtians behalfe the diuine fauour of God: for he doeth write, that when the Gothes did deſtroie and ſpoile the citty of Rome, the Romans (although they were not Chriſtians) did retire themſelues for their ſauegard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs. And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation, had that reſpect to God, that they neuer durſt nor would enter into thoſe holy places to doe them any diſpleaſure.fIt is a wonder, that yo… that hauehave ſo openly ſlai…e thouſands in Ch…rches, ſince your moſt barbarous and faithles maſſacres of late in France began, & as it is notoriouſly knowen, not yet beyond the memory of man, in Merindall and Cabriers, ſhould yet bee ſo impudent to obiect this to vsus as a fault (which yet you hauehave not proued, to hauehave beene committed by vsus) wherein you glory as a vertue. You which make ſo great profeſſion of the Goſpell, hauehave ſhewed your ſelues a great deale more cruell then thoſe barbarous people: for they did pardon all thoſe that went to the Temples, and you hauehave in manie places ſpoiled the churches, and murdered al thoſe that yee found in them, ſo that one might well ſaie to you that, that Optatus Myleuitanus in his booke con. Parm. Donatiſt. the which was, that the Donatiſts ought to be content (& you likewiſe) to hauehave wounded the members of the Church, and to hauehave deuided the people of God,fIf you would hauehave learned this leſſon, it had beene well with vsus. at the leſt you ſhould hauehave ſpared the alters and the tē ples, & not to make warre againſt the ſtones.
The XXXV. Chapter.
NOw in this, you craue the keies to enter by into our garden, to viſite our trees, that ſo you maie ſee the fruites of our religion, hauing gotten in, in your owne pleaſant conceit, after you had caſt your eies about you, and looked a while vponupon our trees: firſt, you bid vsus read all the ſtories ſince Chriſt, and tell vsus that ſo doing, wee ſhal finde, that all thoſe ſects that hauehave left your Romiſh Religion, or Church, hauehave done more miſchiefe in one yeare, being ſeperated from you, then they did in an hundreth before. Now doing as you will vsus, we finde indeed, great hurt hath beene done, by the ancient heretiques, for the ſpace of ſix hundred yeares, that hauehave ſeperated themſelues from the Roman Church that then was, but withall we finde, that our Church is farre liker that Church, then your Roman Church that now is, and ſince, what hurt ſoeuer hath beene done, by one or other, that hauehave ſeperated themſelues frō you (though we challenge not communiō with eueryevery one that hath ſo done) your owne doings we finde in ſtories, hath far exceeded theirs, in al kinde of impiety. Thus hauing in theſe general words, ſet a good face vpō it: as though you could ſay very much of the bad fruites, which you finde growing of our Religion, you beginne at the yeare 1418, with the ſturs in Bohemia; laying to our charge, the murdering of ſeuen magiſtrates of Prage, by a certaine Monke, and his companions, & ſundry other things done, by Iohn Ziſcha, and his army, in the time of thoſe warres there; then you lay to our charge alſo once againe, al the troubles of late in France, preferring vsus for cruelty, before the Goathes, that conquered Rome, and yet ſpared their Temples and thoſe that fled thither, and this is al that you ſpied at this your view, ſaue that moſt vntruelie (as moſt clearely it appeares in Maſter Foxes booke of them) by the way you would ſeeme to hauehave eſpied, yt we place Iohn Hus as the firſt martyr of our Church. I anſwere therefore to that which you now obiect, that both thoſe ſturres of antient time in Bohemia, & theſe of late in France, began firſt of your ſelues, and ſo it clearely appeareth, both by the ſtories, and other circumſtances, of theſe broiles. For howſoeuer you, out of your Aeneas Siluius (a writer far more partial, then Sleidan whom you charged before wt that fault) report that murder of ſeuē Magiſtrates in Prage, by a Monke, to our diſcredit, and the reſt of the ſturs there, that after followed; certaine it is, that when all was laied againſt Iohn Hus, in the councel of Conſtance, that might bee deuiſed any way to hurt him, & his cauſe, and amongſt other things, he was charged with ſedition, and ſtur that had beene before in Prage, he openly in the face of the whole councel cleared himſelfe thereof, and all his followers, and ſheweth indeed, that they did ariſe firſt from a letter ſent from the Colledge of Cardinals, to the king of Bohemia, requiring him, that togither with them, he would renounce & forſake his obediēce vntounto Pope Gregory the 12, which he did, for the which cauſe, the Cleargy were againſt the king, & ſo begā the ſtur. And as for Ziſchaes wars, it appears in the ſtories, that the nobles of Bohemia, & Morauia, hauing vnderunder their hands and ſeals, to the number of 54, entreated the councel of Conſtance, as they had ſundry times done before, for the ſafety of Iohn Hus, & Hierō of Prage, and yet vnderſtāding that that councel to ye perpetual infamy therof, proceeded contrary to the Emperours ſafe conduict, giuen to Hus, to burn thē both, and to make moſt wicked decrees there, againſt the kingdom of Bohemia; partly for the louelove they bare vntounto theſe two mē, and partly prouoked by the monſtrous crueltie, ſhewed vponupon them, by ye coū cel, to preuent the miſchiefe intended further therby, againſt themſelues, and infinite numbers of that nation; they roſe in armes, and banded themſelues togither, rather to roote Papiſtry out of Bohemia, then to ſuffer the Goſpell to bee rooted out from thence, which they ſaw was the intention of that councel. Euen your owne authour confeſſeth, that the iniuries done by this councell, to theſe two men (to the great diſhonour of the kingdome of Bohemia) cauſed Ziſcha to doe as he did cap. 36. de hiſtoriâ Bohemicâ. So that your owne ſelues, and your bloudy tiranny was the cauſe of al the ſturs there. You father alſo more vponupon your authour, to amplifie the matter withall, then he reporteth, namelie, that they ſpoiled al ye Monaſteries, Abbies, and churches of the kingdome, and that Iohn Ziſcha made al to paſſe through the edge of the ſword, without ſpa…ing man, woman or childe; this all, is your addition, and it is contrary to the trueth, both of the ſtory, and euidence of the thing. And howſoeuer the trueth were, concerning the death of thoſe ſeuē magiſtrates that you ſpeake of, certaine it is, that your ſaied author telleth of certaine men (he was aſhamed belike to name how many) by the magiſtrates of Prage, before that, ſecretly and treacherouſly murdered, in their councel-houſe, not concealing, that they that were ſo priuily made away, were fauourers of the religion of Hus, and that they that ſo diſpatched them were of yours, cap. 35. and 37: whereupon he ſaieth, that that matter comming to light, there was great ſturre in the Citty: wherupon, for that and other intollerable iniuries before that offered them (not concealed by your owne authour, cap. 36.) it may be that ſome ſuch outrage, in reuenge thereof, was committed by ſome of their frends and fauourers, as you note out of him. Which I rather beleeue, was or might be ſo, becauſe I reade in an other Hiſtoriographer, that in Ziſcha his time, the Conſuls of Prage beeing grieued with the ſturs that then were, called for Iohannes Premonſtratenſis, and nine of his adherents into their councel-houſe (as though they would hauehave cō ferred with them of the common wealth) and when ſo they had got them thither, that there they ſecretly ſlue them, which after being perceiued by ſome bloud, noted to hauehave come from thence into the chanels, that authour denieth not, but that thereupon there grewe ſuch ſtur and tumult, that the people ouerthrew the Councel-houſe and diuerſe other houſes, and ſlue eleuen principall Citizens, whom they iudged the authours thereof. Whereby yet any man may ſee, yt your ſide gaue the firſt example thereof, and that they therefore are as iuſtly to be blamed as the other. But what maruell is it to heare, that ſuch outrages fell out in ſuch turbulent times, eſpecially when they that in reſpect of their place, ſhould hauehave giuen example onelyonly of iuſt and orderly dealing, behaued them ſelues ſo tyrannically and wickedly as they then there, of your faction, did? when euer hath it beene otherwiſe in ſuch times, and vponupon ſuch occaſions, but that ſome things hauehave fallen out of both ſides not iuſtifiable. Indeede I graunt it had beene farre better, that the Bohemians had takē ſome peaceabler courſe, and lamentable it was of both ſides that there was ſuch ſhedding of bloud, but yet when men are prouoked as they were, and can conceiue no hope of better, but rather of worſe, ſuch is the infirmity of man, that we ſee, it commonly falles out ſo. As for your ciuill warres, and the miſchiefs that thereupon hauehave fallen out in France, you muſt meet with a very meane man, and ſimple reader, if notwithſtanding the freſh remembrance thereof, and the ſtories therof writen, you can make him beleeue, that the fault therof is wholy ours. Nay eueryevery man ſeeth, and vnderſtandeth that your ſide are they that beganne firſt thoſe troubles, that hauehave burned, and with ſword moſt monſtrouſly conſumed, whole congregations, men, women, and children, aſſembled to exerciſe themſelues, in praier, and hearing of the word, according as by your kings edicts, they were permitted; & that your ſide it was, that vnderunder pretence of an honourable mariage, betwixt the king of Nauar, and the kinges ſiſter, drew into Paris all the proteſtants of name, and otherwiſe as many as you could, and when you had them there, moſt tirā nouſly and trecherouſly made a moſt bloudy maſſacre of them. And your friers or frends they were, that of late moſt villanouſly ſlew the French king. And the principals and acceſſaries to that moſt treaſonable murder, are they that yet are vp in armes againſt his lawfull ſucceſſor the king of Nauar. This and a number of ſuch other dealings of yours, are ſo famouſlie knowen abroad, that you come to late to buzze theſe things in the eares of men, that the ruins and deſolation of that kingdome is to be imputed vntounto vsus, or that wee hauehave beene the men that are worſe then the Goathes, and Donatiſts, in murdering thoſe, that we found in your Temples. A poore ſimple man perhaps that reades theſe things in your booke, will thereupon gather that you of your ſide, are men that can neuer bee charged with any diſorderly inſurrections, and rebellions, and that your ſide altogither abhorreth cruelty and neuer practiſed any, For who would thinke that of all other, you would bee ſo ready, ſo eſpecially, and vehemently to charge vsus with theſe things, vnleſſe you were the cleareſt men in the world in them? But vnderſtand Chriſtian reader, that this is but their policy to deceiue thee, for there were neuer men more iuſtlie and deepely to bee charged with theſe thinges, then theſe men are. For if wee looke but into the ſtories of our owne countrey, wee ſhall finde that ſcarce one king hath paſſed his raigne without rebellion, for a long time togither, and that chiefely by meanes of the Popes curſing and banning them for money matters. This, the ſtories of Henrie the ſecond, king Iohn, Henrie the third, Edwarde the ſecond, Richard the ſecond, Henrie the fourth, ſixt, ſeuenth, and eight, and of late time, the ſtories of Edwarde the ſixt, and of her Maieſtie that now is, Queene Elizabeth, doe make moſt cleare. For in all thoſe Princes tymes, wee reade of great troubles, and ciuill warres in this land, and that alwaies eſpeciallie ſtirred vp by the Popes, and their fauourers, if they had not what they would. Sure I am they will not, nor can ſaie, that they that were the authours and doers herein, were of our Religion, but of theirs. The like may bee ſaied of other kingdomes, ſince the time that their Religion hath floriſhed moſt. And certaine it is that none were euer in theſe parts of the world, ſince they came to their height, greater troublers of Chriſtendome, then their Popes themſelues. For in Italie vnderunder the names of Guelphes and Gibelines, in Cicilie, Naples, and Arragon, for titles of thoſe kingdomes, and in Germanie and France for the tranſlating this way and that way the Empire, they hauehave beene the cauſe of moſt long and bloudy warres. And to paſſe ouer all the moſt ſauage partes, played by theſe men, (that would ſeeme to hauehave their hands, ſo free from bloudſhed, eſpeciallie in Churches) of late yeares in France in killing and murdering of Proteſtantes, as couragiouſlie in Churches, as in any other places, where either by force, or ſubtlety they could ſurpriſe them: let them call to their remembrance what was done by a famous Captaine of theirs, Minerius, of late vnderunder pretence of a commiſſion from Frauncis, the king of France, to the poore Chriſtians of Merindoll, and Cabriers, and the townes thereabout, and I thinke they ſhall bee inforced to confeſſe, that they are not the men, they would ſeeme to bee. For in that ſtory it appeareth, that after they had by a decree, in the high court of Prouince, for the not appearance of ten men of Merindoll, adiudged that towne, houſes, and trees to be made euen with the ground, and all the inhabitants thereof, men, women, and children, to bee conſumed with the fire, and that after their prelates and great men, had long laboured in vaine to put this decree in execution: that in the ende, this Minerius, being preſident in Prouince, handled the matter ſo, by falſe informing of the king, that he obtained a moſt bloudy commiſſion from Frauncis then king of France, through the helpe of the Cardinal of Turnon, to execute that arreſt. Wherein, though his commiſſion ſtretched onelyonly to Merindoll, hee behaued himſelfe ſo, with the aſſiſtance that quicklie he got, that in ſhort ſpace he vtterly deſtroied Merindol, Cabriers, and other townes and villages, thereabouts, to the number of 22, giuing commiſſion to his ſouldiers, to ſpoyle, ranſacke, burne, and to deſtroy altogither, and to kill mā, woman, and childe, without al mercy, ſparing none: which commiſſion they executed, in the cruelleſt maner, that their filthy and bloudy hearts could deuiſe, rauiſhing both women and maidens, and putting them to all the torments, they could imagine, cutting of the paps of ſome, ripping open the bellies of other ſome, and ſo moſt tirannouſly murdering al they could get. At Cabriers, thirty men he cauſed to bee hewen in pieces, in a medow neare the towne, and there he tooke .40. women, and cauſed them to be put into a barne ful of hey, and ſtraw, and ſo there to be kept in with pikes, whiles they & the barne and all were burned: and there alſo he ſent a Captaine of his Iohn de Gay, to go with a company of ruffians to the Church; where were a great number of women & young children, & to murder them all, which he did, ſparing neither young nor olde, and ſo one way and other, eight thouſand, were ſlaine in that towne. And but for to much troubling of the reader, a number as tragicall ſtories as this, might bee ſet downe of their dealings againſt the poore ſeruants of God, in diuers and ſundry other places, and namelie alſo not long after theſe thinges were done, in the countrey of Piedmont, and thereabout: but euen this is ſufficient to make any man ſee, eſpeciallie this ſtorie beeing ſo famous, and done of ſo late yeares that your forehead muſt needs be growen very hard, yet to obiect ſuch things to vsus, whereof you your ſelues hauehave beene moſt notoriouſlie guiltie. You hauehave tolde vsus before, that wee muſt not ſeeke to blemiſh your Religion with the bad fruites wee finde vponupon you, for your Religion condemneth them: which might iuſtlie hauehave ſtayed you from going about to ſtaine our Religion, with theſe things, eſpecially. For ſure I am that our Religion condemneth ſeditiō & rebelliō, forbiddeth ſubiects to impeach their Princes ſafety, & dignity, either by word or deede, & deteſteth al kinde of ſuch barborous cruelty, and tiranny. Wheras it may bee iuſtly doubted, that howſoeuer your Religion, condemne ſome other groſſe faults, that be common in men of your ſide, yet it liketh well of theſe, and ſuch like kinde of dealings, becauſe it is a common thing, for your great Prelates to be the chiefe furtherers thereof, and to hauehave ſuch things, attempted vnderunder commiſſion from your catholicke kings, & your Popes of Rome. And therefore, though that your rule weakē, yea fully anſwere this obiection of yours, againſt vsus (though it were grāted that theſe things, which you obiect were true) yet it doeth not take away ours, in this reſpect, made againſt you.