Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 36
The XXXVI. Chapter.
YOuaThe anſwere is to your ſhame. make vsus but a very ſlender anſwere, ſaying, that we were the firſt, & that you doe no other but that that we hauehave taught you.bThat may be, but ſure I am, if you ſhould deny it. I know, & ſtories to your ſhāe report, that you ſhould ſay vntruely. If we ſhould ſaie the contrary, I know who ſhould ſay the trueth: but to auoide all quarels, the beſt is (following the councel of our Sauiour) to giuegive you more then you demand. Let vsus put the caſe, that we ſhould cōfeſſe to be the firſt, doth it follow therefore, that your matter is good?cNo, but it followeth, that then you may be aſhamed to note that as a fault in vsus, whereof you are firſt and more guilty. I pray doe but conſider the verdict that you both giuegive of your ſelues & of vsus. We are (according to your ſacred gospell & Apoſtolical iudgement) no other but poore and ſimple infidels, & ſuperſtitious Idolaters: but cōtrariwiſe, you are Apoſtles, Prophets, Euangeliſts, the true children of God. Seeing then, that God hath ſhewed you ſo much fauour, & poured vponupon you the bountifull giftes of his grace, how hauehave yee ſought ſo cruellie todIf any of our profeſsion hauehave do…e ſo, we neither commend them, nor allow of their maner of dealing, you doe, of the like in yours. reuenge your ſelues againſt his expreſſe commandement. Is this the way of reformation, to ſhew your ſelues as il as we or worſe? Seeing that the matter falleth out ſo plainely, I pray you be not obſtinate, giuegive place vntounto the beſt, to reforme the reſt, for to be worſe then you IeYour opinion, God be thāked, is no great preiudice vntounto vsus. thinke none can be found. You my maſters that can make ſuch tedious ſermons, and raile at large againſt our Popes and Biſhops, whie doe you paſſe ouer ſo lightly the faults of yourfWe doe not lightly paſſe oue… the faultes of our miniſters. miniſters? you ſet out gloriouſly the titles of Apoſtles, Prophets, Euangeliſts, and extraordinarie meſſengers of God for your ſelues: as good Godfathers ye now Chriſten our Popes and Biſhops, calling them rauening andgIn ſo calling them, we ca…l but a ſpade a ſpade, a fig a fig. greedie deuouring wolues. In this ye do greatly abuſe the intellectiō of the ſcriptures: for if you marke vvell that, that our Sauiour doeth ſaie, yee ſhall finde, that yee run farre wide of the text, and the ſimilitude of the wolfe doeth full well appertaine vntounto your miniſtrie. There he doeth declare the difference that is betwixt the good ſhepheard and the bad (which he doeth call Mercenarium) & the wolfe.*John. 10. The good Shepheard is he, that doeth hazard & venture his life for his flocke: the ill Shepheard is he, that taketh the milke and the woole frō the ſheepe, & letteth thē rome without taking any care to keepe them.hAnd this we finde, i…, & hath bene …f long the very nature and property of yours The wolues ſeeing thē rome abroad, ſcattered frō the flocke, doeth deuour all thoſe that are ill kept. The good ſhepheard is our Sauiour Chriſt and his Apoſtles, and all the good Biſhops that did floriſh in olde time, and all the holy Confeſſours and martyrs that hauehave liued in the golden age, when the bloud of our Sauiour Chriſt was yet hot boyling in their harts. The ill ſhepheards hauehave followed after, which hauehave not cared for their ſheepe. The wolues (which are the heretiques) ſeeing this hauehave ſcattered the ſheepe out of the fold of Chriſt, which is the catholike Church, where they had beene borne ſpiritually, that is to ſay, regenerated with the grace of the holy ghoſt, & the Sacrament of baptiſme, to follow the ſects of perditiō. If al our ſhepheards had bene as careful to keepe their flockes as they ought to hauehave beene, your Congregation had neuer beene ſo ſtrongly builded as it is at this day in France. And therefore you offer your Church (if it may be ſo called) great wrong, when you ſpeake againſt the abuſes of ours,iIndeed becauſe your Religion & the principal pillers thereof are plants h…t the heauenly father planted neuer, therefore you are, and ſhall be rooted vp by the rootes. for our ſinnes hauehave beene and are the principall foundations of your building. And euen as the worme is nouriſhed in the Apoſteme with the ill humors, euen ſo you feede of our faultes, & are nouriſhed with our ſinnes, your fire burnes with our woodkYou muſt amēd both your liues and religion, or elſe it will be wide with you, I can tell you. and if we woulde amend our liues, I know how ſoone your religion wouldlThe gates of hel ſhal neuer preuaile againſt ours. decay. And therfore our Paſtours are not wolues, but they hauehave permitted the wolues to deuour their ſheepe, and ſo they ſhall anſwere for them before the throne of the eternall Iudge,mYour ſheepherds then by your owne confeſſiō, hauehave bene lewde, idle, and negligent ſhepeherdes. who doeth aduertiſe them by the Prophet Ezechiel, that they ſhal anſwere for all the miſchiefes that happen vntounto their ſheepe, manie of the vvhichwhich are ſcabbed and full of diſeaſes: and therefore I would hauehave you to cauſe ſome body to chooſe among yours and ours thoſe that are beſt, to the ende, that through this diuiſion, and your aide, wee may take the reſt. I thinke, that if any thing condemne vsus, it wil bee this cauſe, foraſmuch as we hauehave continued in that doctrine which was preached vntounto vsus at the firſt, as you your ſeluesnYes that we can, and ſay moſt truely too. cannot denie, if you will confeſſe the trueth.
The XXXVI. Chapter.
YOu would hauehave your reader beleeue, that we hauehave no further anſwere to your former obiection, but your example, and therefore in this chapter you bring vsus in anſwering onelyonly for our defence, that you were the firſt, and that we learned ſo to doe of you: whereunto firſt you anſwere, that you know who ſhould ſaie the trueth if you ſhould ſay the contrary; and then ſuppoſing that our anſwere were true, you tel vsus that our anſwere will not ſerue, becauſe we ſhould not hauehave learned, ſo cruelly to reuenge our ſelues againſt Gods expreſſe commandement of you, whom we count poore ſimple infidels, and ſuperſtitious idolaters. But I truſt the indifferent duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page reader may ſee by that which I hauehave writen, that this is not our only anſwere, and that we anſwering thus, if you ſhould ſay the contrary, he now knoweth, that it is you and no other, that therein ſhould ſpeake contrary to the trueth. Indeed we cōfeſſe, that we ſhould not learne of you, nor of any other, cruelly to ſeeke to reuenge our ſelues, for the Lord hath forbid vsus to reuenge our ſelues, for vengeance is his, and he wil doe vengeance. Rom. 12.19. And if any of our ſide, hauehave tranſgreſſed this rule, we cōmend it not in them; neither do we incourage other to follow any ſuch exāple, but yet withal we tel you, and you know it to be moſt true, that ſuch may be the oppreſſion of Gods ſeruants, and the tiranny of their enemies, towards them, that he may as he hath done, extraordinarily ſtir vp ſome amongſt them, to reuenge their quarrels, and to deliuer them out of their enemies hands, though ſuch extraordinary examples, are not to bee drawen into ordinary imitation. And though there bee no reaſon why wee ſhould learne to doe ill of you, of whom we account ſo euill; yet there is reaſon why you thinking ſo well of your ſelues, as you doe, ſhould not teach vsus, by your often example to doe that, which if we doe but once, you count an heinous offence in vsus. You would hauehave the beſt to reforme the reſt, if your requeſt were graunted, you muſt amend apace, or elſe there will none of you be found in that degree. You are angrie with vsus for ſpeaking as wee vſe to doe againſt your Popes, and biſhops, and for that in the mean time, we giuegive our ſelues glorious titles of Apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Prophets &c, paſſing ouer the faults of our owne. Whereunto moſt truely I may anſwere, that ſo infinite and monſtrous hauehave beene the ſinnes and abhominations, of theſe your Popes and other prelates, for this long time, that it is impoſſible for vsus all, euer ſufficiently to paint out the filthineſſe of them: and as for our paſſing ouer in the meane time, the faultes of our owne (though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongſt our owne, for they are men, and indeed for all your ſaying, we are the firſt cenſurers of our ſelues oftentimes for thoſe faults) what reaſon is there that you ſhould require at our handes, that we ſhould neuer tell you of your faults, but that we muſt withal lay open our owne? When this is your faſhion, we will learne to imitate you: and concerning titles which you ſay, we ſo gloriouſly ſet out our miniſters withall, they are yet but titles, by Chriſt in his expreſſe word, left vntounto his Church, and of them, ſome we cōfeſſe, were extraordinary, and but for a time, as Apoſtles, Prophets, and Euangeliſts, of whom onelyonly we glory in this, that our doctrine is the ſame yt they left vsus in writing, & the other titles of biſhops, paſtors, & doctors, as fit for ye true miniſters of ye Goſpel, we take vntounto vsus, & therwt are we content. So that you rather hauehave aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles, thē we, in that of your own heads, not thinking the titles that Chriſt hath left vsus glorious inough, you hauehave your Popes, Cardinals, and diuers other ſuch ſtrange and ſwelling names of pride and vanity. Yet it grieueth you, as it ſeemeth moſt, that ſome of vsus, now and then tearme your Popes and biſhoppes rauening & deuouring wolues; ſome labour therfore you beſtow in amplifying a ſimilitude to proue them no wolues: but hirelings and bad ſhepheards, that many of them hauehave beene a great while, yea & that their ſinnes hauehave bene the cauſe of our proſpering and preuailing as we hauehave, you will not deny vsus. It is wel yt the euidence of the trueth, and the force thereof, hath preuailed thus far with you, to cauſe you to graunt vsus thus much: I feare me if a number of your Prelates, and Popes ſhould come to the reading of this, you ſhould hauehave ſmal thanke of them, for yeelding thus farre. Well, then hirelings they are, and hauehave beene, but too much, and too long, by your owne confeſſion, & therefore as you tell them, the iudgement of God denoūced againſt thē, Eze. 3, & 33, is that, that they may make their accoūt of; which beeing ſo I cannot ſee how their verieſt enemies ſhould wiſh them to be worſe: yet let vsus ſee what reaſon you hauehave to proue, that they may not bee rightly called wolues? Your reaſon is, becauſe in the phraſe of the Scripture you thinke there muſt needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe, ſpoken of therein, the ſame difference that is betwixt a naughty, careleſſe, and a negligent ſhepheard, and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke: whereupon the hireling with you, is as the ſheephearde, but careles and negligent in looking to his ſheepe, & the woulfe is as the heretick and falſe teacher, that cōmeth whiles the other is negligent, & driues the ſheepe from the folde, & deuours them. But you know that ſimilitudes are not to be ſtreatched further then they are brought in, & vſed for, that notwithſtanding, ſeeing you your ſelfe cō feſſe yt ye hereticke is the woulfe, we ſhal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Biſhops, wolues, I warrant you. For that is the thing eſpecially that wee ſtood vponupon with you, and we deſire nothing more thē that you would come once to the ſound triall of that point, by the Canonicall ſcriptures, whither you and they hauehave not beene moſt daungerous heretiques. Hereſie we account any opinion conceiued, helde, and ſtubburnly defended, contrary to the ſound grounds of diuinity ſet downe vntounto vsus, in the canonicall ſcriptures. And your Religion to ſtand, & conſiſt of a great number of ſuch, we are alwaies moſt ready to proue. It is not your ſaying, that your Religion is ancient, and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God, from Chriſt, to this day; nor your bragging that we cānot deny it, as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter, and hauehave often heretofore; that will ſerue the turne in this caſe; for I hauehave diuerſe times heretofore proued the contrarie. This is flat, eueryevery one ſeeth it, you can hide it no longer, that if your Religion be ſo in deede, as you ſay, then you dare bring it vntounto this touchſtone of the ſcripture; and it wil abide it; otherwiſe that whatſoeuer you ſay to countenance it, with your wordes, or with the names, and titles, of ancient fathers and doctours, that in deede and trueth, it is not as you pretend. I hauehave meetly well already ſhewed the oppoſition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine & that, taught in the Scriptures, cap. 29. and elſewhere: and yet were it an eaſie matter to lead on the reader, to a number of ſuch groſſe contrarieties more, betwixt the doctrine of your Popes, and Biſhops, for a long time; and that which is taught there. For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat, both to will, & to performe, euen of his owne good pleaſure. Phil. 2.13. and you contrariwiſe teach in your doctrine of free will. That teacheth vsus flatly, that as there is but one God, ſo ther is but one mediatour betwixt God & mā, the man Chriſt Ieſus, 1. Timot. 2. and you ſet vsus vp a number of mediatours & aduocates, of ſaints and Angels beſides him. There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundatiō, then that which is already laied Chriſt Ieſus. 1. Cor. 3.11. and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church. And in this ſcripture we are taught, to worſhip the lord God & him only to ſerue Deut. 6. and namely the ſeruice of praier, beeing one of the higheſt and diuineſt pointes of ſeruice that wee are to yeelde vntounto him, there we are taught by commandement, promiſſe, and example, only to doe vntounto him: and you come and teach vsus to worſhip & to ſerue euen with diuine honour, and namely with this of praier, not onelyonly ſaints & Angels, but alſo their reliques, ſhrines, and images. What ſhould I ſay more? your owne conſciences tell you that you hauehave nothing in the world to eſcape this, & 1000. more ſuch contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the ſcriptures, but by ſubtle ſophiſtrie, fonde quiddities, and diſtinctions deuiſed of your owne heades, without all warrant and ground frō thēce, which in matters and queſtions of diuinity is intollerable. Theſe and ſuch like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates, and the trueth taught in the ſcriptures, we hauing oft obſerued and tolde them of, and yet finding them moſt obſtinatly to perſiſt in the ſame, hath cauſed vsus rather in reſpect of their hereticall doctrine, to call them wolues, thē in reſpect of their negligence onelyonly heretiques. And for this ſame cauſe, ſeeing all yours are thus infected, you wiſh vsus in vaine to ioyne ſome of the beſt of them, with ſome of the beſt of ours, to reforme things amiſſe in both. For there is no hope of any good reformation at all, where any ſuch as yours, hauehave any thing to doe therein. And ſeeing it is and hath beene ſo cō mon a thing with vsus (as you cannot be ignorant, if you hauehave reade anie of our bookes writen againſt you) to denie, that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vntounto you at the firſt, yea ſeeing you all know, that we count your ſynagogue Antichriſtian, for her manifold Apoſtaſies from the ancient doctrine of Chriſt and his Apoſtles, taught firſt vntounto the Romans, I wonder with what face or forehead, you could write as you do in the cōcluſion of this Chapter, that we our ſelues cannot denie, if we will confeſſe the trueth, but that you hauehave continued in the doctrine that was firſt preached vntounto you. And therefore not onelyonly for your lewdnes of life, and negligent ſheepherds, & bad ſheepe, doeth your kingdome decay (as you would inſinuate) but eſpecially for this alſo, that in the points we ſtriue wt you about, you are quite gone from the ancient ſound Catholique faith and religion, firſt taught by Chriſt and his Apoſtles, and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church & others. The only way therefore for you is, to preuēt an vtter & vniuerſall ſubuerſion and confuſion, firſt to returne againe from your new Antichriſtian Religiō & doctrine, to the true ancient & Catholique faith taught in the ſcriptures, and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the ſame.