Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 6 (4 of 4)

Conference Between Rainolds and Hart · Chapter 6 (4 of 4)

p. 341Rainoldes.

In déede the truth of God doth not depend of mens maners. Many Iewes, inferiour in life to many Paynims: many Christians, to many Iewes. Neither did I mention the Popes to that purpose. Howbeit, where you call the truth of their stories (which I touched) into doute, and match them with reportes that some men hauehave writen of Bucer and Caluin: it is the part of wise men, to weigh (as iudges doo in witnesses,) who writeth, what, of whom. The llL. Testium fides. Dig. l. Siqui… testibus. Cod. tit. de testibus. 3. q. 5. c. Accusatores, & testes.law alloweth not that a mans enimie shall be a witnesse against him. No enimie more deadly, then he, who beareth hatred for quarrell of religion: as mmLuc. 9.53.Luke 9:53the Samaritans to the Iewes. Such hatred is borne to Bucer and Caluin, by Lindan and Bolsecke, the autours of those lewde reportes. And a farther hatred by Bolsecke to Caluin: because nnIn the yeare of Christ 1551. as it appeareth by the actes in Caluin and Beza. Bolsecke saith it was 1552. of forgetfulnes (it seemeth) … the printers errour. Praefat. in vit. Caluin.when he would hauehave troubled Geneua with erroneous doctrine, Caluin did set himselfe openly against him; ooEpist. ad ministros Hel…et.the ministers of Geneua reproued him by word and writing; ppCaluin. in epist ad ministr. Basil.the magistrates of Geneua did banish him out of their citie. qqTheod. Bez. in vita Caluin.On like cause whereof when hee was driuen twise out of the coastes of Berna too, and thinges fell not out to his minde amongst the Protestants: he reuolted from them againe to the p. 342Papistes, and returned to Poperie as a dogge to his vomit. Wherefore they doo iniurie to Caluin and Bucer, who beléeue so heinous matters against them vponupon no better proofe then Lindans word, or Bolseckes: chiefely, sith the knowledge of many, rrEpist. Nic. … obitu ….who were present at the death of Bucer, of infinite who either liued with Caluin, or reade his godly writings, wherein hee liueth still, may cléere them from the cankred spite of one enimie in all indifferent iudges eyes. But the thinges which I did mention of your Popes are witnessed not by enimies, but by fréendes; not one, but manie; most like to know the truth, and to report thereof no worse, then they knew. For stories do consent that Boniface the eighth was such **A fox in his entrance, a lion in his raigne, a dogge in his death.a threeformed beast, as I declared. The Councell of Constance examined and found Iohn the three and twentéeth to be a sinke of sinnes, a Diuell in carnate, as they called him. Of Alexander the sixth I said not a word more then is in Guicciardin, a gentleman, who liued at the same time and wrote the storie of it: an Italian by nation, ssGuicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 1.by religion a Papist, ttlib. 14. & 17.the Popes lieutenant by his office, a faithfull captaine to his State, uulib. 13.a bitter enimie to the Lutherans. And Guicciardins report of him is confirmed by two Italians mo, xxHistor. sui …emp. lib. 1. & 8. De vita Leon decim. lib. 1. & vita Pomp. Colui….Iouius, and yyIn vita Alexand. sext. append. Platin.Onuphrius. Who, though in certaine of the Popes liues, they doo blanch their histories, of louelove and deuotion; yet they consent with Guicciardin in Alexander the sixth: sauing that, where Guicciardin saith he would hauehave poysoned one Cardinall at his last supper, they say that he intended to hauehave poysoned sundry. Now these were sworne fréends to them, of whom they wrote: they were not Lindans, and Bolseckes. They sought not of malice what they might write against them: but they wrote the truth by zzNequid falsi dicere aud eat, ne quid veri non audeat. Cic. de Orat. l. 1.the law of historie. They did not misreport them to reuenge themselues. 11In his letters writen to the Ministers of Basil 1552. set forth in print 1575. Bolsecke wrote his preface 1577. printed the booke 1580.Caluin had touched Bolsecke: the Popes had not so them. They were not requested and sued to by Protestants to set forth their workes in print against the Popes: as Bolsecke was by Papistes (22A perquám multis Dominis amicis que …eis rogatus & sollicitatus. Bol…ec. in epist. dedicator. ad archiepiscopum …ngdunensem. his Lordes and frendes,) against Caluin. If I had gone about to touch in such sort your Popes with odious matters: I could hauehave made mention of a young stripling aaProductus a Paulo tertio ex arcanis cubiculi …ord…ous. Alciat. in epist. ad Iouium.created Bishop by a Pope; and an other, bbIulius …ertius Innocentium, quem. Sleidan. lib. 2….whom a Pope made his first Cardinall; and ccLucretia nomine, sed re Thais: Alexandri filia, spo…s… ▪ …. Sannazar, in Epigram.Lucretia, a Popes daughter, he liker to Tarquinius, then she to Lucretia; and ddFilius Pauli tertii, qui Cosmum Cherium per vim. Sleidan. lib. 19.Aloisius, p. 343a Popes sonne, worthy of his father; with eeHonoranda Diu…m Ganymedibus aedes. Baptist. Mant. de calamit. temp. l. 3.other vilanies more notorious; all proued by more credible witnesses then Bolseckes. But I neither ripped vp all that I might, (many things they hauehave done, which a shamefa…t aduersarie would be loth to open:) neither did I speake of any thing but that, which your selues doo, or must, confesse of necessitie. And therefore when I spake of faithlesse wicked Popes▪ I said not a word either of ffCalled Iohn the eighth. Platina.Ioane, the whoore; or of ggCalled Gregory the seuenth. Benn… Card. de vita Hiltebrandi.Hildebrand, the traitor: because you take exception, hhOnuphr. annot. in Plat. Gregor. …ept. Harding in the preface of his De…ect.for Hildebrand, that they who write much euil of him did it to please his enimie; for iiOnuphr. annot. in Plat. Ioan. octa…. ex. Luitprand. Ticin. l. 6. c. 6. & 7.Ioane, that shee was harlot to Pope Iohn the twelfth, so that Iohn and Ioane were not two Popes, but one. As for that you say that if all the stories were true, they are impertinent, sith you defend the doctrine of Popes and not their maners▪ that answere other where is fit, and to purpose; but here it cometh out of season. For, the point in question touching the Popes was, whether any of them had bene theeues & robbers. You graunted that about a fifty of them were so; and monsters too, not onelyonly theeues: but the fault thereof you said was in the Emperours, who intruded them. I replied, that since the Cardinals did choose them, there hauehave béene as monstrous of them as were before, and that hauehave come in as vnlawfully. For proofe hereof I named Boniface the eighth, Iohn the three and twentéeth, and Alexander the sixth: who were Popes then when the election by Cardinals was growne to the perfitest, the first a thirtéene hundred, the next a fouretéene hundred, the last a fiftéene hundred yeares after Christ. That these were monstrous, their whole liues do shew: that they came in vnlawfully, their entrances. That they were as monstrous, and came in as vnlawfully, as the fiftie Popes: I will not proue, vnlesse you force me; for comparisons are odious. And here I must adde, least I be accused as partial to the Emperors, that although I cléere them from intruding those Popes, yet I cléere them not from all fault therein. For it was a fault in them, that they suffered such vilaines to enioy the roome: as it is well noted by kkPlatina de … tis Pont. in Benedict. quar….your own historian, who saith, that great licentiousnes did bring forth those monsters, 11Nullo Principe flagitia hominum tum coercente.no Prince then repressing the wicked deeeds of men. Of the which fault the later Emperours also (I speake it with reuerence, as of Princes, not of Tyrants,) hauehave béene, and do continue guiltie. But to conclude the point, p. 344if he be a theefe & a robber, who entreth in vnlawfully into the shéepefolde; then many of your Popes hauehave béene theeues and robbers. Yet take I not aduantage of that which you hauehave said about the fiftie Popes. For so, not onelyonly they, but all the rest might proue theeues.

Hart.

Nay you were best to say that the Saints them selues, Martyrs, and Confessours, and Doctors, were theeues. For llAs Bristow saith in y^e Table of Popes in his Demaunds.the auncient Popes were all Saintes, but one, from Peter to Honorius, vntill aboue sixe hundred yeares after Christ.

Rainoldes.

Were they so? What meane you then to endite them of so great a crime? Where was your Genebrards wit, when he wrote of the fiftie Popes? For if they did enter in 22Non per ostium, sed per posti…um: Genebrard. Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 10.not by the dore, but by a posterne gate, because when they were chosen they would not take the Popedom vntil the Emperour had confirmed them: how may y^e Saints, as mmIo. Dia…on. …n vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platin. in Gregor. Sigon. de regno Ital. l. 1.Gregorie namely, be excused, who entred in the same way? And if these were theeues, because they entred in by the Emperours consent: what were their predecessors, nnEuseb. hist. eccles. l. 6. c. 21. Cyprian. ep 52.who entred in by the peoples? For the Emperour Friderike had reason when ooOtho Frising. de rebus gest. Friderici Imper. l. 1. c. 1.he saide, that **Qui tanquam …ex, & patricius, primus in electione suae vrbis episcopi esse deberet.himselfe, as king, ought to be chiefe in choosing the Bishop of his owne citie. Wherefore if the people had voices in the choise of him: why not the German Emperour? ppSigon. de regn. Ital. l. 4. & 7.who then was king of Rome, though now the Pope be. And if they were theeues too, because the people chose them, and not the clergie onelyonly: what hauehave y^e Popes bene these four hundred yeares, Genebr. Chronogr. l. 4. Plat. & Onuphr. de …itis Pontificā.whom neither the Emperour, nor people, nor clergie, but onelyonly a few Cardinals hauehave chosen? See you not how al the Popes are brought in danger by you, to be théeues? But (as I saide) I meane not to take this aduantage. It sufficeth me, first, that many of them purchased the Popedome with bribery and corruption, as I hauehave shewed by their stories: next, that all such purchasers are (by their owne law) rrDist. 79. c. Siquis pecunia. Non Apostolicus, sed apostaticus habeatur. which decree was made by Pope Nicolas the second in a Councell ▪ held at Rome.not Apostolicall, but Apostaticall, that is to say, revolters from the faith of Christ, not successors of the Apostles. For hereof it foloweth that many, not onelyonly Antipopes, but Popes, and they elected, not intruded, hauehave béene theeues and robbers, by your own definition. Wherefore, not all Popes are pastors, or hirelinges. And so the demonstration by which you promised to proue out of the scripture, that Popes cannot erre in doctrine, is fallen.

p. 345Hart.

But as D. ssPrincip. doctr. lib. 5. cap. ….Stapleton doth define a theefe out of S. Cyprians wordes: no Pope can be a theefe. For he is a theefe, who succeeding no man, is ordeined of himselfe. Now, it is manifest that the Popes, all, both hauehave succéeded others, and were ordeined by others. Yet, though some of them were theeues, and robbers, in D. Genebrards sense: they could not erre in doctrine. Such is the force of succession.

Rainoldes.

Why? Is the force, I say not of succession, but of lawfull succession, such, that they, who hauehave it, can not erre in doctrine? May not true Bishops and pastors teach heresie, as 11Of Alexandria. Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 2.Arius, 22Of Constantinople. Socrat. l. 7. c. 29. & 32.Nestorius, and 33Of Antioche. Euseb. l. 7. c. ….Samosatenus did?

Hart.

Yes: they may. But then they become woolues, as you heard out of D. Stapleton. They are not theeues and robbers.

Rainoldes.

Then the Popes succession doth not warrant them but that they may be woolues. Which is as much to my purpose, as if you said, theeues, and robbers. And in very truth, vnlesse D. Stapleton had slubbered vp that place of scripture (in S. Iohn) to make it serue for his succession: it would be apparant that Christ meant the same by theeues and robbers, that you by woolues. For when the Pharises had ttIoh. 7.47. & … ▪ 13. & 9.16.John 7:47John 7:13John 9:16spoken much against him, and sought by uuIoh. 9. ver. 24. & 29.John 9:24John 9:29perswasion and xxver. 22. & 34.excommunication to leade away the people: he (to make the faithful wise against their practises) yyIoh. 10. ver. 14. & 3… ▪John 10:14John 10:3declareth both his office and person in a parable, wherein he compareth Gods chosen to sheepe, and him selfe to a shepheard. And by that occasion he aduertiseth them of three sortes of teachers, which meddle with the flocke of God: the first, a shepheard; the second, a hireling; the third, a theefe and a robber. zzver. 2. & 11.A shepheard entreth in by the doore into the sheepefold, and careth for the shéepe so, that when the woolfe cometh, he standeth in their defense, aduenturing his life for them. aaver. 12▪ & 13.A hireling entreth in, as the shepheard doth, but careth not for the sheepe: and therefore in the time of danger he fleeth, and leaueth them to be scattered. bbver. … & ….A theefe and a robber neither entreth in by the dore, as they: and he cometh to steale, and to kill, and to destroy. These three sortes of teachers are mentioned by Christ, perhaps to touch the Pharises by the way couertly, but manifestly to cléere himselfe, whom they reproued as a false teacher, that is (in this similitude,) as a theefe & a robber. Which s…launder to confute, he sheweth himselfe to be… a shepheard, p. 346neither a shepeheard hireling, but a good shepeheard, that is, a true and godly teacher. And to this end he noteth two differences betweene a shepeheard and a theefe: the one, in their doctrine; the other, in their ende. In their doctrine; ccvers. 1. & 2.that a theefe entreth not in by the doore, the lawfull way: but the shepeheard entreth in by the doore, that is, he preacheth Christ. For ddver. 7. & 9.Christ is the doore: and by him the shepeheard leadeth his sheepe in, and out, to feede them and saue them. In their ende, eevers. 10.that a theefe commeth to steale, kill, destroy, that is, to spoile them of their life, of life spirituall and eternall: but the shepeheard cometh that they may hauehave life, and hauehave it in aboundance. Whereby it is euident that Christ did meane the same by theeues and robbers here, which other where by false Prophets: ffMatt. 7.15.Matt 7:15Beware of false Prophets, which come to you in sheepes clothing, but inwardly are rauening woolues. For els, neither they could hauehave béene noted well by the propertie of woolues, that is, to kill & destroy: neither had his doctrine and diuision of teachers béene perfit to his purpose: neither were his answer fit against the Pharises, who touched him as a seducer, and not as an intruder; not for succession, but for doctrine. If you beleeue not me that this is the natural meaning of the text, you may beléeue S. ggIn euang Iohann. Tract. 45.Austin, who saith, that to enter into the shepefold by the doore, is, to preach Christ: whom who so preach not rightly, they are theeues and robbers. Of these, for example, hee nameth Arius: who yet succéeded lawfully as D. Stapleton graunteth, though he counte him a woolfe, and not a theefe and a robber, vponupon a point that Austin saw not. In which point his fansie carried him so farre, that whereas hhDe verbis Dom. serm 49.Austin said, we must louelove the Pastour, tolerate the hireling, beware of the theefe, iiStaplet. princip. doctrin. l. 5. cap. 9.he would adde to Austin, and driue away the woolfe: as though S. Austin meant not [the woolfe] by [the theefe;] and [driue away,] by [beware;] belike nor Christ neither, when he said **Matt. 7.15.Matt 7:15beware of woolues. How much more séemely had it béene for Stapleton to hauehave followed Austin (with your kkArias Monta…us, Iohannes Ferus, & Claudius Guillia… dus in Euangel. Iohann▪ cap. 10.best interpreters) then so to hauehave corrected him.

Hart.

He doth not correct him so much, as varie from him: and that not on his owne, but on S. Cyprians iudgement, a Father most auncient. Whose definition if he liked better then hee p. 347did Austins: why might he not take it?

Rainoldes.

Good reason, if it were as true as S. Austins. But what is that definition?

Hart.

A theefe is he, who climeth vp another way, that is, (as Cyprian writeth,) who succeeding no man is ordained of him selfe.

Rainoldes.

These wordes are llEpist. 76. ad Magnum: or as Stapletō citeth it, lib. 1. epist. 6.Cyprians wordes: but the definition is Stapletons definition. For Cyprian doth not write them more of a theefe, then of a woolfe.

Hart.

He writeth them of Nouatian, who entred not in by the doore into the shepefold, but climed vp another way. Therefore he writeth them of a theefe.

Rainoldes.

He writeth them of Nouatian, who was a false prophet, and came in sheepes clothing, but inwardly was a rauener. Therefore he writeth them of a woolfe. For mmAd Nouatian. haereticum. quód lapsis s…e… veniae non est deneganda.Cyprian doth count Nouatian the heretike, both a theefe, and a woolfe. Which proueth that sense that I gaue thereof, against your distinction who seuer woolues from theeues. But Stapleton in handling this place of Cyprian doth playe vsus thrée feats: which if they be marked, will shew with what arte so many sayinges of the Fathers are interlaced in his bookes. First he chaungeth the wordes. For where it is in nnEpist. 76. ad Magnum.Cyprian, a se ipso ortus est, arose of him selfe: Stapleton doth reade it, a se ipso ordinatus est, is ordained of him selfe.

Hart.

It hath béene heretofore reade so in some printes.

Rainoldes.

It hath so: but amisse. For Nouatian was ordeined of others, though vnlawfully: as ooHist. eccles. lib. 6. c. 4…. whe… the name of Nouatus is giuen (through errour) to Nouatianus.Eusebius sheweth, and ppEpist. 41. ad Cornelium.Cyprian did know. Wherevpon, that fa…tie reading is amended in the qqOf Manutius at Rome, Morelius at Paris, Pamelius at Anwerpt.later printes out of writen copies: and rrAnnotat. in ep. Cyprian. 76. Neque e…at cō moda prior lectio▪ Lordinatus est: Inemo enim a seipso ordinati potest.a note reprouing it (least it créepe in againe) is left by Pamelius. Whose edition sith ssPrincip. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 15. Iuxta emendat… editionem.Stapleton prayseth as best corrected, and foloweth it for aduantage: to chaunge a worde of it here, in such sort, it was a feate and had a purpose. But the second feate doth excel this. For, because Cyprian saith of a théefe, that he succeeding no man arose of him selfe: Stapleton doth take him as though he had defined a theefe by those wordes. Whereof he would hauehave the reader to conceiue that they who hauehave succession, and are ordeined lawfully, can not bee theeues: a thing which Cyprian meant not. But therein he dealeth with the wordes of p. 348Cyprian as if a man should say to define a doctour: a doctour is he, who interpreteth the scriptures, that is (as ttLib. de vnitat. ecclesiae.Cyprian writeth) who doth corrupt the gospell, and is a false expounder of it. For these are Cyprians wordes, and spoken of Nouatian Doctours. But they were not spoken to define a doctour. For then they should be verified as well of all doctours, as they be of Doctour Stapleton. Yet he who should define a doctour so, to proue him one, and that out of Cyprian: should serue him such a feate as he doth serue a theefe, and take him in the snare which him selfe hath framed.

Hart.

As though that of theues some might be good, and some naught. There may be so of doctours.

Rainoldes.

No. But, as doctours, some are good, some are naught; and sith that both these qualities are incident into doctours, a doctour should not be defined by eyther of them: so theeues, some succéede, some doo not succéede; and sith that both these qualities are incident into theeues, no one of them can open the nature of a theefe, nor both in déed pithily. Wherefore to say in defining a theefe, that he succeedeth no man: it is a iuggling feate, which conuerteth accidents into the shape of substance, and maketh essence of a qualitie. A feate that is vsed much by D. Stapleton, & doth amaze the simple who sée not the sleight: where they who discerne the conueiance of it, estéeme it as a feat of sophistrie. But the third feate, is a feate of foly. For when he had made foure kindes of teachers, the first, pastors; the next, hirelings; the third, theeues; the last, woolues; and graunted that they all are called to that office by lawfull succession, excepting theeues onelyonly: he diuideth hirelings into two sortes; and hauing proued that both of them do teach the truth, concludeth therupon, that an vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to succession. Then the which what kinde of legierdemaine can be more fond? to say in the conclusion, that they who by lawfull succession are teachers, doo surely teach the truth, because that hirelings doo, and pastours: when he had shewed before that not onelyonly they doo succéed lawfully, but also woolues, who teach errours.

Hart.

It was not his meaning that succession alone hath vnd…uted certaintie of doctrine and faith, but, succession with vnitie. For other-where uuStaplet princip. doctrin. lib. 5. cap. 5.he saith, that to this prerogatiue of p. 349Bishops and Priestes, there are required two conditions: one, that they bee lawfully ordayned, least they bee theeues, who enter in not by the doore; an other, that being lawfully ordained they keepe and holde vnitie, least they become woolues of pastours.

Rainoldes.

Then is not trueth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession it selfe: no not though it bee lawfull and Apostolike succession.

Hart.

I graunt: but with vnitie.

Rainoldes.

Then is there much vanitie in Stapletons discourses, and in his vaunt more vanitie, that xxLib. 5. …ap. 9.in spite of heretikes a sure vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit **Ip…i succession… Apostolica.to the verie succession of the Apostles, to the succession it selfe. And you, by retayning this vnitie with Stapleton, hauehave razed to the grounde that prerogatiue of the Pope, whereon you builded his supremacie. For if vnitie with succession hauehave vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith: all Pastors kéeping vnitie are as frée from errour in doctrine, as the Pope is. And so if not to erre in doctrine be a priuilege & proofe of the supremacie: all Pastours hauehave as high supremacie by this vnitie, as the Pope hath. The Pope, I can tell you, will not like this vnitie. How much the more wisely (me thought) you dealt **In the begi…ning of the third Diuision.before, when, laying the foundation of the prerogatiue Papall, you remoued this vnitie out of the chaire, that His vnitie might sit in it. For whereas S. Austin saith, that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chaire of vnitie, meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with …oncord against the sect and schisme of Donatistes: you applyed that saying to the chaire of the Pope, displacing altogether both vnitie and other pastors. Wherein though you forsooke the steps of D. yyPrincip. doct. lib. 5. cap. 9.Stapleton, who proueth by that verie saying of S. Austin, that all Priestes and Bishops, whether they be pastours or hirelinges, teach the truth: yet you followed that which you had receiued of your Diuines at Rhemes. For zzIn their Annotations … Luk. 22.31.Luke 22:31they do so apply it to the Popes prerogatiue. Belike the great benefites flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminarie did moue them to aduenture somewhat in his quarell more then D. Stapletons heart did …erue him too.

p. 350Hart

No more, then in truth and conscience they might. For though in déed that saying of S. Austin were meant of al Bishops that held the faith with concord; which our Diuines of Rhemes (I warrant you) knew well enough: yet they might apply it to the Pope, as chiefely belonging vntounto him, the fountaine (as it were) of vnitie.

Rainoldes.

But they do apply it to the Pope, as onelyonly belonging vntounto him. For they alleage it to proue the prerogatiue and priuilege of the Pope, that howsoeuer he doo in person, yet he cannot erre in office. Liberius (say they) in persecution might yeelde, Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie, Honorius might fall to heresie, and more then all this, some Iudas might creepe into the office, and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate, in which (saith S. **Augustin. op. …66. in ….Austin) our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth. If your Diuines of Rhemes knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord: their sinne is the greater. For, that which he made common to the 11In cathedra vnitatis.vnitie of all: they nippe it as proper to the singular seate of one. And, that which he spake in generall 22De malis praepositis▪ &, de praepositis … mala facientibus & Dei bona d… centibus.of wicked bishops who say good thinges and doo euill: they abbridge it to Popes. As who say that Popes onelyonly could be wicked: not other Bishops also.

Hart.

If there were perhaps either a slippe ofmemory, or other ouersight in citing of S. Austins wordes, the matter is not great, so long as the thing is true which they be cited for: namely, that the Pope may erre in person, not in office; as a priuate man, not as Pope.

Rainoldes.

The matter is so great, that the tracke thereof will find vsus out that, which by this distinction you séeke to steale away. For you say that the Pope cannot erre in office, though he may in person. And why? Because, although his person be wicked: yet in the seate hath God set the doctrine of truth, as S. Austin saith. But as S. Austin saith it, all Bishops, be they good or euill, pastors or hirelinges, doo sit in that seat. So that none of them can erre in office neither, by consequence of your reason. Wherefore if the Pope cannot erre, as Pope: a Bishop cannot erre, as Bishop. But you will not say (I thinke) that a Bishop cannot erre, as Bishop. Therefore you must yéeld, that the Pope may erre, as Pope.

p. 351Hart.

What if I said that a Bishop can not erre, as Bishop? I could maintaine it after a sort.

Rainoldes.

I doubt not of that. But you should marre the Popes priuilege: which if you doo-

Hart.

Nay, I say it not. The fault of your argument is rather in the former part: I meane, in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin, that the office and seate, wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth, is common to al Bishops. For, though he may séeme to hauehave so thought in aaEpist. 166.that epistle: yet in bbEpist. 165.the next before it, he giueth that prerogatiue to the Sée of Rome.

Rainoldes.

Unlesse your Diuines of Rhemes doo abuse him. For out of that epistle ccIn their Annotations on Matt. 23.2.Matt 23:2they teach vsus this lesson. God preserueth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolike See of Rome, which is in the new Law answerable to the chaire of Moses, notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were neuer so wicked of life: yea though some traitor as ill as Iudas were Bishop thereof, it should not bee preiudiciall to the Church, and innocent Christians, for whom our Lord prouiding said, Doo that which they say, but doo not as they doo. August. Epist. 165. Now, in bbEpist. 165.the epistle alleaged and quoted for proofe of this lesson, S. Austin saith the very same, which in aaEpist. 166.the other, of wicked Bishops in generall; though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome, if any of them had béene wicked. Your Diuines of Rhemes, leaue out **De praepositi… malis.the generall wordes: that simple men may thinke he meant a special priuilege of the Sée of Rome. Whereto they note in the margent: The See of Rome preserued in truth. And vponupon ddIn their Annotat. on Matt. 23.3. out of Augustin. contr. literas Petilian. lib. 2. c. 51. & 61.Matt 23:3other like places: The dignitie of the See of Rome. And that which passeth all, they say that in the newe law the See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses: the Apostolike See of Rome. I was of opinion (before I saw these gloses of theirs vponupon the Testament,) that Stapleton had passed all the Popes retayners in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy. But now I perceiue and confesse, that as eeEzek. 16.5….Ezek 16:5Ierusalem did iustifie her sister Sodom: so the Diuines of Rhemes hauehave iustified their brother Stapleton. For Stapleton, as he hath dealt with greater truth and honestie then they, in many other pointes▪ so hath ffPrincip. doctri▪ l. 5. c. 9.he shewed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chaire, both, that the text is meant of wicked Bishops, all such as say p. 352and doo not, and, that S. Austin giueth that sense of the text. But the Diuines of Rhemes hauehave set downe S. Austins name, and wordes so, as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had béene a peculiar grace vntounto the Popes. And, vnderunder colour of his authoritie, and iudgement, they force the scriptures also to it, saying, that the chaire of Moses in the olde law was that the Sée of Rome is now, The See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses. Which sentence is so grosse, that vnlesse they had hoped to finde swine in England, whom any doung would please that sauoured of the Pope, they would not hauehave durst to lay it on the scriptures, no not though their heartes had béene as fat as brawne, and their faces as hard as adamant.

Hart.

What meane you to sclaunder a college of so learned Diuines in such sort? Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite, both in the epistles, and against Petilian?

Rainoldes.

Not in all: in some he doth. But doth he mention him in any of them so, as though the chaire of Moses were proper vntounto him, and he alone should sit in it?

Hart.

Perhaps, not expressely: yet he doth impliedly, and by a consequent. For els why made he speciall mention of him more then of others?

Rainoldes.

Because he had occasion to speake of him specially through the obiections of his aduersaries. Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too, as ggContr. liter. Petilian. lib. 2. cap. 51.of Ierusalem. But, the scripture witnesseth that hhRom. 3.4.Rom 3:4all men are lyers. If I should hence auouch that the Pope is a lyer: would you say that I auouch the Pope alone to to be a lyer, and not the Turke also?

Hart.

The Pope may lye by nature▪ but God by grace can free him from it.

Rainoldes.

The question is, what God doth: not what hee can doo.

Hart.

But as he can, so he doth, by priuilege of the Sée of Rome.

Rainoldes.

As true as Austin saith it. Such a proofe, such a priuilege.

Hart.

S. Austin may hauehave said it, if not in the former places, yet in the other, For certes D. iiChronogr. l. 3. …n Honorio.Genebrard, to proue that the Pope may be an heretike in person, but cannot erre iudicially, p. 353doth bring forth a reason from the chaire, that is, the Sée, and quoteth him for it. For the force (saith he) of the chaire is such, that it constraineth them to speake good thinges and true, who doo not good, nor thinke true: neither doth it suffer them to teach their owne thinges, but the things of God. Augustin. lib. 4. de dectr. Christ cap. 27. & epist. 166.

Rainoldes.

Of the two places, whence he gathereth this, the former agreeth fully with the later; the later is the same that your Diuines of Rhemes abuse, as I hauehave shewed. In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally, not specially of the Pope. In both he meaneth the office of teaching by [the chaire:] the office, committed not to one Bishop, but to all. If Genebrard doo take [the chaire] in this sense: how proueth it your priuilege? If he meane the Sée of Rome by [the chaire:] then is there **Ezek. 22.25.Ezek 22:25a conspiracie of Prophets among you, as there was among the Iewes, and Genebrard is one of them.

Hart.

It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire, for the office of teaching, which is common to all Bishops, as well to hirelinges, as to pastors. For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true: the chaire constraineth them. How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church? And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed, but in the Popes onelyonly?

Rainoldes.

S. Austin, as he noteth that grace in the Popes, so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time, whose doctrine the Donatists (against whom he writeth) did not reproue, but their maners. He calleth kkAugust. epist. 166.the chaire, (in which they all sit) the chaire of wholsome doctrine: and saith, they are constrained to speake good thinges in it. He openeth the cause why they are constrained: llDe doctrin. Christian. lib. 4. cap. 27.to wéete, that although they seeke their owne thinges; yet 11Sua docere non audent.they are afraid, and dare not teach their owne thinges, out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established. So that the speciall grace, whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true: is an vngratious grace, whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour. For, mmIn euang Iohan. Tractat. 4….they preach Christ for ear…hly commodities, nnDe ve…bi… Dom. Serm. ….of mony, or dignities, and the prayse of man. The louelove of which thinges is so mightie with p. 354them, that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they louelove. And hereupon S. Austin saith, they are constrained and inforced to it: as ooGal. 2.14.Gal 2:14Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes, because by his example hee moued them effectually; as ppIn Cice 1. de …micitia.Laelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing, which they by earnest suite intreated. For that he vsed the worde [constraine] in that sense: himselfe hath declared qqLibr. de pastoribus cap. 10.other-where, by saying, that 22Velint nolint pastores vt perueniant ad lac & lanam, verba Dei dicturi sunt.shepeheardes (he meaneth hirelinges) will they, nill they, will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll. The spéech may séeme harsh, that shepeheardes will they, nill they, will say the wordes of God: but hee speaketh so, to note that the louelove of milke and of wolle, that is, of commodities, constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde, whether they like of it, or no. Now because the doing herof is in, and by, their office of teaching, which the chaire betokened, as, the chaire of Moses: therefore rrDe doctrin. Christian. l. 4. …. 27.he saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges; and that ssEpist. 166.amongst Christians, hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too. As if I should say, when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie, a worldling against worldlinesse, an hypocrite against hypocrisie, (which some times they doo:) the pulpit constraineth them to preach so. You should mistake me, if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour. Euen so doo they S. Austin, who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes. Howbeit, if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force, then a pulpit with vsus: yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops, who say and doo not. For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often, euen in the same ttContr. liter. Petilian. l. …. c, 7. & l. 2. c. 6. & l. 3. c. 2.booke which your Rhemists alleage. Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope: then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire. But any other Bishop, you graunt, may erre as Bishop. Therefore you must graunt, the Pope may erre as Pope.

Hart.

Nay, I will graunt rather that S. Austin erred, and p. 355laide a false ground: if he doo impart the priuilege of the chaire to all other Bishops as well as to the Pope.

Rainoldes.

Then you must graunt withall that Genebrard and your Rhemists hauehave abused S. Austin, to bring him as for that, which he is flat against. But I will defend S. Austin in a truth: and proue that the argument which I hauehave grounded on him is so sure and sound, that you must néedes graunt it, vnlesse you will be froward wilfully. For what thinke you, first: may a Bishop erre as Bishop?

Hart.

Who doth deny it?

Rainoldes.

There is one in uuDe repub. … 1. Thrasymachus.Plato who saith that a magistrate cannot erre, as magistrate; nor a Prince, as Prince.

Hart.

Not a Prince? Why?

Rainoldes.

Because a Prince is, as it were, a physician of the common wealth: and a physician can not erre, as physician. For in that he erreth, he misseth of his arte. Wherefore, by want of physicke he erreth, not by physicke. And so (to speake exactly) no artificer can erre: at the least he cannot erre as an artificer. For he which erreth, erreth because he hath not skill enough, and not because he hath skill.

Hart.

But yet an artificer may erre in practise of his arte: as a physician, in curing sicke men: a Prince, in ruling the common wealth. And therefore, me thinketh, that shift is but a quidditie. For an artificer may be iustly saide to erre as an artificer, when he doth erre in that which he dealeth with in respect of his arte. At least, if he erre not therein as an artificer, he erreth as an euill artificer.

Rainoldes.

That is true, as an euill artificer.

Hart.

Then your man in Plato must amend his spéech: and say, that a Prince may erre as an euil Prince, though he cannot, as good; and a magistrate, as an euill magistrate.

Rainoldes.

And of a physician he must amend it too: and say, that a physician if he cure not the sicke wel, doth erre as an euill physician.

Hart.

He must so.

Rainoldes.

Likewise if an auditor doo misse in casting of accounts: he erreth as an euill auditor.

Hart.

An euill auditor.

Rainoldes.

And if a cooke doo misse in dressing of meate, he p. 356erreth as an euill cooke; a tayler in making garments, as an euill tayler; a shoomaker in making shooes, as an euill shoomaker.

Hart.

What els? and all artificers after the same sorte.

Rainoldes.

Nor onelyonly artificers, as they are called commonly, but all, in whose functions skill and arte is néedfull for the discharge of them: whether they be ciuill, as lawiers, iudges, counseilors; or ecclesiasticall, as deacons, pastors, doctors. Doo you not meane so?

Hart.

I meane of all such, except the Pope onelyonly.

Rainoldes.

You preuent me before you néede. I come not to the Pope yet.

Hart.

No: but I sée what you goe about. You would fish out of me, that a Pope may erre as an euill Pope.

Rainoldes.

You are too suspicious. I meant to conclude, that a Bishop may erre as an euill Bishop For it is a Bishops duety, pp…. Tim. 2.15. foreign.to diuide the word of truth aright. If he erre, in diuiding it: he erreth in a point of the Bishops duetie. Shall we say that he erreth as an euill Bishop?

Hart.

We must so, it seemeth, by proportion to the rest.

Rainoldes.

But perhaps we hauehave dealt too hardly with the rest. And now in Bishops I perceiue it. For would you call S. Austin, and S. Cyprian, euill Bishops?

Hart.

Euill? God forbid.

Rainoldes.

Yet they hauehave erred sometimes in diuiding the worde of truth: as you confesse of the qqAd Iubaianū, epist. 73. & in concil. Carthag.one; the other rr…ibris duobus retractionum.sheweth of himselfe. And ssIam. 3.2.Jas 3:2we doo all offend in many thinges. Euen the best physician doth erre some times in curing; the best Prince, in ruling. Through defaute, I graunt: because they are not good enough. And to speake exactly, ttMar. 1….18.Mark 1:18there is none good, but one, euen God. But if we speake as men are commonly wont: we may not call the best, euill. Wherefore I am loth to say, that a Bishop erreth as an euill Bishop, if he erre in diuiding the word of truth. I had rather say, that he erreth as Bishop offending in a point of duetie. And so would I mitigate our spéeches of the rest: not to call them euill, whom all account good; but to note that good, in men, hath imperfection.

Hart.

Doo so, if you list.

Rainoldes.

Then we will bid the sophister in Plato farewell: p. 357and say that a magistrate may erre, as magistrate: and a Prince, as Prince.

Hart.

I was of that minde at the first.

Rainoldes.

And a Doctor, as Doctor; & a Bishop, as Bishop.

Hart.

True: and likewise the like.

Rainoldes.

Is not the Pope a Bishop? the Bishop of Rome, I trow.

Hart.

I thought that hether you would at last. And therefore I did purposely except him by name. For it is true in all Bishops, saue in the Bishop of Rome.

Rainoldes.

I know you did except him: but with what reason? For if it be true in generall of Princes, that they may erre as Princes; it foloweth in speciall that any Prince may erre as Prince: the Quéene of England, as Quéene; the King of Scotland, as King; the German Emperour, as Emperour; and so forth all the rest, whose office is Princely. This you graunt. Doo you not?

Hart.

Yes, it is so in Princes, I graunt.

Rainoldes.

Then, in like sorte, if it be true of Bishops that they may erre as Bishops, it foloweth that any Bishop may erre as Bishop: the Patriarke of Venice, as Patriarke: the Cardinall of Alba, as Cardinall; the Pope of Rome, as Pope; and so forth all the rest, whose office is Bishoply. Doth not reason teach you, that you must graunt this also?

Hart.

No. Because the state and condition of Bishops is not like to Princes in this consideration. For amongst Princes there is none priuileged by vertue of his office not to erre, as Prince. But amongst Bishops the Pope of Rome is priuileged not to erre, as Pope.

Rainoldes.

The date of this priuilege is out, M. Hart: it cannot serue you now. For your selfe misliked Thrasymachus in Plato as shifting with a quidditie, for saying that a Prince cannot erre as Prince.

Hart.

And I mislike him still.

Rainoldes.

You confessed also, that an artificer may be iustly said to erre as an artificer, when he doth erre in that which hee dealeth with in respect of his arte.

Hart.

I did so. What then?

Rainoldes.

And you thought it méete, that we should say a p. 358Bishop erreth as Bishop, when he erreth in a peint of the Bishops dutie.

Hart.

And this I graunt too.

Rainoldes.

How can you deny then, but the Pope may iustly be saide to erre as Pope, when he erreth in a point of y^e Popes duty? And sith a point thereof, is, to diuide the word of truth aright, belonging to him, as to all Bishops, by the chaire & seate, that is, the office of teaching, wherin God hath set them: the Pope is not priuileged by vertue of the chaire from erring as Pope, more then all Bishops are priuileged as Bishops. That, if an other Bishop may erre notwithstanding as Bishop, which you graunt: you must néedes graunt the Pope may also erre as Pope. Yea, though all Popes were pastors or hirelinges, and none of them theeues: yet might they erre as Popes too. For S. Austin and S. Cyprian erred, as Bishops. Yet they were pastors both.

Hart.

Nay, the Pope certainly can not erre as Pope, that is to say, in office: though he may in person, as Pope Honorius did.

Rainoldes.

Nay in Pope Honorius you are cast certainly. For I hauehave proued now that he wrote that as Pope, which he was condemned for: and therefore erred as Pope.

Hart.

It may séeme he wrote it as Pope, & so erred. But that is not enough to proue that y^e Pope may erre in office, as I take it.

Rainoldes.

The sixth Diuision.To proue it then more fully: let vsus sée first, what is the office of the Pope, that so it may appeere whether hee may erre in office, or no. S. Peter the Apostle writing vntounto Elders, by whom he meaneth Bishops and all who hauehave the charge of soules (as uuConcil. Trident. Session. 23. de reformat. c. 1.you acknowledge:) xx1. Pet. 5.2.1 Pet 5:2Feede ye, saith he, the flocke of God which is committed to you, taking care for it, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready minde; not as though you were Lordes ouer Gods heritages, but that ye may be ensamples to the flocke. Wherein he chargeth them to preach the word of God, and leade a godly life: that they may féede the Church both with doctrine and example. This is the Popes office, I thinke, if he be a Bishop: for it doth touch them all. But what thinke you of it, least I lose my labour through an [except the Pope:] doth it touch all Bishops, or al saue him onelyonly?

Hart.

It doth touch them all.

Rainoldes.

The Councell of Trent hath made One vnderunder Paul the third, Session. 6. de refo…mat. cap. 1. the other vn…er Pius the f…urth, Se…. 23. de re…ormat. cap. 1.two decrées against the sinne of non-residence; in the later whereof it p. 359proueth that all they who hauehave the charge of soules are bound to be resident, because they ought to feede their flocke with the word, with sacraments, with prayers, and with good workes; and feede it so they cannot, if they forsake it, as hirelinges, and be not resident vponupon it. Beside the which necessarie consequence of reason, zzforeign.the terme whereby S. Peter doth note the care, that they should take, importeth as much. For it signifieth to looke too, & as it were to watch ouer: to looke, as shepheards to the flocke, aaGen. 31.44. Luc. 2.8.Gen 31:44Luke 2:8which they must day and night, where there are woolues and wilde beastes: to watch as bbEz…k. 3.17. Heb. 13.17.Heb 13:17watchmen in the citie, a néedefull thing in peace, but in warre specially. Wherefore sith eueryevery flocke of Christ is in daunger of ccIoh. 10.12.John 10:12the woolfe, that is the diuell, dd1. Pet. 5.8.1 Pet 5:8who seeketh whom he may deuour; and eeReu. 12.7.Rev 12:7Satan with his Angels, euen with ffEph. 6.1… ▪Eph 6:1spirituall wickednesses, is still in warre against the faithfull: it foloweth that all Bishops ought to be resident on their charge, all pastors to attend their flockes, all watchmen to regard their cities. Doo you allow of this too?

Hart.

So: as the Councell hath decréede it.

Rainoldes.

By your confession then vponupon the scripture, with the Councell, the office of a Bishop requireth three thinges: that he preach faithfully, that he liue vprightly, and that he be resident on his charge. But the Bishop of Rome may erre in each of these. Therefore in office he may erre. How say you? May he not?

Hart.

He cannot erre in them all.

Rainoldes.

He may erre in office, if he may erre in any of them: for each of them toucheth his office, you grant. But I proue, in them all. And to beginne with the last: he may be non-resident. For he was so by the space of threescore and ten yeares togither: all the which time, ggPlatin. de … Pontificum. Onuphr. in R…m. Pontif. … Chron.seuen Popes, who folowed one an other, Clemens the fifth, Iohn the two and twentéeth, Benedict the twelfth, Clemens the sixth, Innocent the sixth, Vrban the fifth, & Gregory the eleuenth, abode first at Lions in Fraunce, then at Auinion, and neuer came as much as once to Rome. Is not this true?

Hart.

Yet you may not say that they were non-residents. For the Pope hath charge ouer the whole world, not ouer Rome onelyonly. So that wheresoeuer he abideth, he is resident.

Rainoldes.

And wheresoeuer he abideth not, he is non-resident. Will not that folow? For he that hath two benefices p. 360smaller then Rome, **…is not resident on y^e one, if he be resident on y^e other. And whatsoeueryou imagine of y^e Popes residence vponupon the whole world: vnlesse he be resident at Rome, he is non-resident. Which himselfe acknowledged, euen Gregorie the eleuenth, the last of the seuen: who therefore went at length from Auinion to Rome. For hhPlatin. in vita Gregor. vndeci…i.the chiefest cause that moued him thereto, was the spéech of a certaine Bishop. Whom when he had asked, why he went not to his charge, from which a Pastor ought not to be so long absent: the Bishop answered him, And why most holy Father, go not you to yours? The Pope was not so wise to replie, as you doo, that the whole world was his charge: but being moued with the iust reproofe of his fault hee went to Rome straight. And when after his death the Cardinals were to choose a newe Pope: iiIn vita Vrba…i sexti.the clergie and people of Rome beséeching them to choose an Italian (least, if a French m…n were chosen, the Court should into Fraunce againe) said, that it was me…te the Pope should be resident vponupon the Papall See. Whereby you may perceiue that the Pope, and clergie, and people of Rome thought the Pope non-resident when hee abode in Fraunce. What thinke you? that he was so? or that they erred who thought so?

Hart.

You are too full of questions, by which you séeke to entangle me. Go forward with you… argument: and when you hauehave done, I will answere to it.

Rainoldes.

I séeke not to entangle you, but with the truth: wherein I wish your companie. But if I should goe forward alone, till I had done; my paines might be perhaps either fruitlesse or néedelesse. Wherefore I must desire you to go forward with me, and answere to my question, whether you thinke the seuen Popes were non-residents.

Hart.

They were Frenchmen all, and, vponupon a fansie belike to their countrie, they abode in Fraunce to the great hurt of Italie and Rome. They might hauehave done better to hauehave stayed at Rome still: but what then?

Rainoldes.

That is as much (in gentler wordes) as if you said; they did amisse in it. The Pope may offend then in that point of duetie which requireth residence. The next, of godly life, he may offend in also. Which I hauehave proued alreadie by sundry examples: but if you will you shall hauehave more, kkTheodorie. Niem. in Nem. vn…on. tra…t. 6. c 39. & de Schismate lib. …. & 2.Vrban the p. 361sixth, and Boniface the ninth▪

Hart.

It is superfluous to rehearse more of their stories. We graunt, as I hauehave said, that they may erre in maners. And in déede non-residence is a fault rather of maners, then of doctrine. Wherefore though they may erre in residence and life: they cannot erre in doctrine. And that is it, which wee defend.

Rainoldes.

I speake not of their doctrine now, but of their office. In two pointes whereof you graunt that they may erre. The third is as manifest. For he which now is Pope, Gregorie the thirteenth, preacheth not at all. If he preach not at all: he preacheth not faithfully. If he preach not faithfully: then may he erre in that point too.

Hart.

How know you, that he preacheth not?

Rainoldes.

Your selfe did tell me so; and it is the likelier, because llGenebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4. Anton. Amic. praefat. in C…is…ran. de Papae & concilii au…oritat,they, who commend him, commend him for a lawier and not for a Diuine.

Hart.

But his predecessor Pius the fifth did visite often times the Churches of the citie, and preached to the clergie, as mmIn commentar. rer. in orbegestar.Surius noteth of him.

Rainoldes.

That is a greater proofe, that the Popes vse not commonly to preach. For Surius doth likewise note of him also, that he suffered fewer Courtisans in Rome, and them in streets lesse famous: because they dwelt before 11In vicis publicis, & splendidis aedibus, magno numer….in the hie streetes & gorgeous houses in great number. And peraduenture Surius who prayseth Pius for his preaching, made the most of it. Pope Pius was aliue, when Frier Surius praysed him. Moreouer Surius reckeneth this amongst his prayses, that in a procession he was not caried on mens shoulders (as Popes are wont to be) but 22Cum max impopuli aedi…icatione pedibu… ingredien…he went a foote to the great edifying of the people. Small preaching of the Pope may be praysed as great: when his going a foote shall edifie the people so. Neither yet doth Surius report of his preaching more then to the clergie. Of sermons to the people he giueth him this prayse, that he vouchsafed them of his presence at solemne times. Belike he did edifie the people enough with going a foote. But if Pope Pius had preached to the people as well as to the clergie: one swallowe makes not summer; his preaching had not done his duetie. M. Pacie, Secretarie to king Henrie the eighth, and his Embassador in Italie, p. 362(a man who saw farther into the state of Popes, then Surius) doth write nnRicard. P…caeus lib. de … qui ex do…trina percipitur.that Pope Iulius the secōd was requested to make one Giles, (a lerned Frier,) Cardinall. To the which intent whē it was alleaged that the man had learning & preached diligently: nay marry, quoth the Pope, that is the onelyonly reason, why I can not make him Cardinall with safe conscience, that he may preach the worde of God the better still, which he might not if he were Cardinall. For that is verie farre from the dignitie and custome of Cardinalls, (saith Pacie,) and therefore Pope Iulius, as he was a Pastour most carefull of the flocke, would not agree to that request. Now, if it be so straunge for Cardinalls to preach: what thinke you of the Popes them selues, who are more occupied with affaires of state, and may lesse attend so base thinges as preaching? As the example sheweth of the same Iulius. Who bending all his powers (ooGuicciard. hast. Ital lib. 6. as soone as hee had bought the Popedome) ppOnuphr. de vit. Po…t. in Iulio secund.partly to recouer, and partly to enlarge the patrimonie of Peter, that is the Popes dominion temporall: he moued warre qqGuicciard. lib. 7against the Lordes of Bononie, Perusium, & the land about, rrlib. 8.against the Venetians, lib. 9.the Duke of Ferrara, the State of Genua, and ttlib. 10. & 11.the French king. Wherin to hauehave his purposes, he gaue himselfe wholy to the conueyance of deuises, confederacies, practises, with Princes, peoples, Signories, English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Swizzers, Italian, and set them all by the eares together. Neither did hee wage these warres, by others onelyonly, that himselfe might preach the meane while at Rome: but himselfe was present at uulib. 7. & 9.some of them in person. Amongst which he bore himselfe most valiantly at the siege of Mirandula. Whether he came twise, in the déepe of winter, through great cold, and snow, and did a captaines dutie both in wordes, and déedes: yea, pitched his tent so néere the towne wall, that the shot of the artillerie had twise almost killed him; it killed two euen fast by him. And surely (saith xxlib. 9.Guicciardin) it was 11Co…a notabi…e, & molto nu….a thing worth the noting, and very strange to mens eyes, that the king of Fraunce, a secular Prince, fresh of age, strong of bodie, brought vp in armour from his youth, should rest himselfe at home, dealing by captaines, in a warre which was made chiefly against him: and of the other side to see that the Pope 22Vicario di Christo.the vicar of Christ in earth, an olde man, and sickly, and brought vp pleasurably at ease, p. 363should come in person to a warre 33Suscita…a de lui c…ntro a Chris…ni.which he had made against Christians, and come into the campe vntounto a base towne: where putting himselfe (as a captaine of soldiours) to labors & perils, he retained nothing of a Pope but only the robes, and the name. To be short, the captaine, the Pope (I would say,) was troubled so with warring that he had no leasure to thinke of making sermons. yyMelanchthon. Brus…hius, Ducherius, … Scriptor. Britann. Centur. 1.Some doo write of him, that when he was going once out of Rome against the French men with an armie, he cast S. Peters keyes into the riuer of Tiber, saying, sith Peters keyes can not defend vsus, let vsus try what the sworde of Paul will doo. Which though peraduenture it be but a iest, yet sheweth it a truth, zzGuicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 11.that Iulius did labor to aduance his Church by warre in thinges temporal, which he should hauehave edified by godlinesse in thinges spirituall, that is, for Peters keyes, he tooke the sworde of Paul: not that sworde of Paul whereof he saith, aa2. Cor. 10.4.2 Cor 10:4the weapons of our warfare are not carnal; but that sworde with which Pope bbO…osius hi…t. lib. 7. cap. 7.Nero did behead S. Paul. All Popes hauehave not had so much to doo with warre, as Iulius the second: nor al so much with peace, as Gregorie the thirtenth. But for these thousand yeares, almost, they hauehave béene proling to kepe their State, or to encrease it: and for these last fiue hundred, sith the Romane Church, of small, weake, and (in a maner) a 11Imperatorum ancilla.handmaide of the Emperours, is become 22Domina omnium.the ladie of Emperours, nay, of all, (as ccIn Roman. Pontif. praefation. ad LectoremOnuphrius writeth,) they hauehave béene troubled more about it. Wherefore though some of them, it may be, hauehave preached, sometimes, for a fashion, at solemne feastes, after the order of ddSacra…. ceremon. eccles. Rom. lib. 3.their booke of ceremonies: yet that which the dutie of a faithfull pastor & stewarde doth require eeLuc. 12.42.Luke 12:42to giuegive the houshold meat in season, ffAct. 20.20.Acts 20:20to teach both publikely and priuately, gg2. Tim. 4.2.2 Tim 4:2to be instant in season & out of season, to improue, rebuke, exhort with al long suffering and doctrine: they were **2. Tim. 2.4.2 Tim 2:4entangled so with the affaires of this life, that they could not doo it. At least, if you say, that they, who did preach, discharged faithfully the whole duetie: with what face can you say it ofthem, who preached not, as Gregory the lawier, and Iulius the warriour?

Hart.

You are not sure that neither of them did euer preach. But if they were not able to preach by them selues: yet they might preach by others. And so I am sure that our most holy p. 364Father Gregory the thirtenth doth faithfully discharge that dutie.

Rainoldes.

By others? What meaneth that?

Hart.

As if a man that oweth money, should procure his freend, or send his seruant, to pay it: he payeth it by an other, because an other payeth it for him. Princes hauehave their officers in peace, in warre their captaines. Them selues doo not all thinges which they are said to doo: and yet in déede they doo them, because they doo them by others.

Rainoldes.

O: by others. I vnderstand it. You meane as Pope Iulius, though he were in the campe, and warred by him selfe: yet he was in the pulpit, and preached by Frier Giles. And when Pope Leo the tenth (next after Iulius) made hhFrater Egi…us, nunc crea…us Car…ina…is vt taceat. Ricard. Pacae. lib. de fruct. qui ex …oct. percip.Frier Giles Cardinall, that he might hold his peace: then other Friers stepped vp in his roome, and Pope Leo preached by them in like sorte, while iiIouius de vita Leon. decim. lib. 4.by himselfe he played the wanton. But Christ when he commanded Peter to feede his sheepe: meant not that he should take his Princely sportes and pleasures in **The name of the Popes most delicate gar…en or paradise, so called, as you would say, … to see.Belvedere by him selfe, and preach the worde of God by others. If you thinke the Pope may be discharged so for this point of a Bishops dutie: it was an ouersight that you forgot it in the former. For you might say as well, that if he be not resident by him selfe, he may by others: and if he liue not godly by him selfe, he may by others. And thus, although the Pope be damned by himselfe: yet with your distinction he may be saued also. He may be saued by others.

Hart.

The case in these thinges is not like. For all are bound to leade a godly life by them selues: and he, who is not resident by himselfe, is not resident.

Rainoldes.

So he, who doth not preach by himselfe, doth not preach. For therefore is a pastor bound to personall residence, that he may attend his flocke by himselfe, & preach vntounto it personally. Which you may learne by the decrée of the Councel of Lateran made against non-residence, & pluralities, a roote of it. kk…Because (saith the Councell) some men through exceeding couetousnesse doo seeke to get diuers dignities ecclesiasticall, and benefices mo then one, against the ordinances of holy rules and canons, so that 11…being scarce able to execute & discharge one office they take vntounto them selues the stipendes p. 365of many: we command straitly that this be not done hereafter. When therefore a benefice or charge ecclesiasticall is to be bestowed, 22…let such a person be sought for it, as may be resident on the place, and performe the dutie therof by him selfe. The cause then why persons are charged to be resident, is, that they may performe the dutie (**which phi…se of ours answereth to the…of the …. serue the cure, as it is termed) by them selues, and not by vicars. Wherefore if they may preach (which is the dutie) by others: they may be resident by others. To say they maybe resident by others, were ridiculous. It is no reason therefore to hold that they may preach by others.

Hart.

No? What say you then to ll…those rules of law: A man may doo that by an other, which he may doo by him selfe, and, he that doth a thing by an other, it is as well as if he doo it by him selfe?

Rainoldes.

I say that mm…rules of law must be expounded by the law, whence they are taken: and there are few of them which suffer not exception. As here we hauehave to weigh, that men may commit some thinges to others to be done, some thinges they may not. A thing which they may commit vntounto others, nn…Ita autem▪ D. de administ. & pe…i…t…torū. l. non solus. D. de liber. causa. l. quod iussu. D. de regulis …u…is, l. procurator. D. de procuratoribus, & defensoribus.if they doo it by others, it is as if them selu…s had done it. So Princes by their Councell, their Lieutenantes, their officers doo looke vntounto their state, and minister iustice and iudgement. So men in law-matters doo deale by atturneyes; in trafficke, by factors; in houshold, by seruants: in all affaires of life, by friendes, whom they do put in trust. But if a thing be such as you ought of dutie to doo it personally your selfe: then you doo amisse if you commit it to an other, and, though an other doo it, your are not discharged. As, for example, ooL. inter artifices. D. de … tionibus.amongst workemen there is a great difference both of wit, and nature, and knowledge, and instruction. A man who desireth to hauehave a faire and strong house, chooseth him a workeman, whom he knoweth to bee a wise and skilfull builder, and couenanteth with him to build his house thus and thus. If this builder doo not build the house himselfe, but get an other to doo it: he hath built it by another, but he hath not discharged his dutie. Why? Because the owner did regard his skill, when he made choise of him, and meant that himselfe should be the builder of it. The like may be obserued in Noble men and Counsellors, whom Princes put in trust with matters of importance. p. 366For when they are chosen to doo this or that in respect of their industrie (as ppc. is cui…de o…fic. & potest. …udicis delegat. … Se…t.the law doth terme it) that is of special vertues by which they are the fitter vntounto this or that: their allegiaunce bindeth them to doo it them selues; they may not doo it by others. As, the Earle of Warwicke, when the Quéenes Maiestie appointed him Generall ouer the armie, which she sent against the Rebels in the North (**…ander. de v…ib. monar. eccles. l. 7. Whom Pius the fifth, your preaching Pope, had stirred vpp:) he might not send an other Generall in his stéede; himselfe in person was to goe; because to that charge, his prowesse, his valure, his wisedome, his faith, his industrie was chosen. Now, the Church of God is a qq1. Pet. 2.5.1 Pet 2:5spirituall house: and his people must rr1. Tim. 1.18.1 Tim 1:18fight against the Rebels of the North, I meane, the flesh, the world, the deuill. Christ, the Lord of the house, and Prince of the people, hath ordeined Bishops to be the ss1. Cor. 3.10.1 Cor 3:10builders of the one, and ttHeb. 13.17. foreign.Heb 13:17captaines of the other. And he hath chosen them in respect of their industrie, that is, that they be uuTit. 1.8.Titus 1:8wise, righteous, holie, temperate, xx1. Tim. 3.2.1 Tim 3:2modest, watchfull, apt to teach, fit as you would say to build an house, and guide an armie. But he that is so chosen must discharge the duetie by him selfe, and not by others: according to the law, whence your rules are taken. Wherefore those rules of law cannot discharge Bishops, and therefore not the Popes, from preaching by themselues in person.

Hart.

That yy… cui. de offic. & potest. …udicis delegat. in Sext.law, which your exception against my rules is grounded on, hath an exception too. For it saith, that he, whose industrie is chosen, may not commit that charge vntounto an other, which is committed vntounto him, vnlesse it be expressed in the tenor of the commissiō, that he may doo the thinge **Perse, vel per …lium.by him selfe, or by another.

Rainoldes.

True. But this exception hath nothing to your purpose. For it is not expressed in the tenor of the commission, which Christ hath made to Bishops, that they may do their duetie by them selues, or by others.

Hart.

Why, then if a Bishop be sicke, extremely sicke, so that he is not able to moue out of his bedde, much lesse to come into the pulpit: yet he is bound still to preach by him selfe, because it is his duetie.

Rainoldes.

Nay, if he be sicke, it is his duetie then not to preach by him selfe. God hath layed an other duetie vponupon him, to p. 367looke to his health that he may do his former duetie: or, (if his appointed time be fulfilled,) to thinke vponupon a higher duetie. But by this reason no Christian is bound to come to Church by him selfe. For he is not bound if he be sicke extremely. Neither hath the Pope néede to preach by others. For, if he be sicke that hee cannot preach, he is discharged before God: yea, although no other doo preach in his stéede.

Hart.

But it is better yet, if he supplie his roome by others.

Rainoldes.

Be it better. What then?

Hart.

If sickenes maye excuse him: then imprisonment may.

Rainoldes.

And banishment, and death, and whatsoeuer difficultie, whereby God depriueth him of power to preach. What then?

Hart.

And why may not then the great affaires of the Churches state excuse him too?

Rainoldes.

What els? As Pope Iulius, that he may lye in campe to beate Mirandula to the ground; that he may recouer Rauenna, and Ceruia; that he may conquer Placentia, and Parma; that he may raise England, and Spaine, against Fraunce; Fraunce, and Germanie, against Venice; Venice, and Rome, against Genua; them both, and others, against Ferrara; Italie, against it selfe; the Swizzers, against all; zzGuieciard. hist. Ital. l. ….sauing that the Swizzers plaid the Swizzers with him, that is, for lacke of pay and foode they forsooke him.

Hart.

You take a delight in discouering still the frailties of the Popes, as cursed aaGen. 9.…2.Gen 9:2Cham did the priuities of his father Noe. The great affaires that I meant of the Churches state, are the affaires of religion & gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome: whereof the charge belongeth vntounto them by duetie, and doth greatly busie them.

Rainoldes.

How farre I am from Cham, and your Pope from Noe: I could declare easily, if it perteined to my purpose. But I am the willinger to beare this reproch, because, when S. Bernard reproued the corruptions of the Court of Rome, he did incurre it too, and hath defended me against it. For that which he said on lesser occasion, I may more iustly say on greater: bbBernard. epi…t▪ 42. ad Archiep, Senon.I speake thinges naked, nakedly; neither discouer I priuie p. 367shame, but open shamelessenes I reproue. I would to God that these thinges were done priuately, and in chambers. I would that we alone had seene them and heard them. I would that the 11Mode…i Noe.Noes of our time had left vsus some what whereby we might couer them in part. Now, when all men see that which is 22Mundi fab… lam.a common talke throughout the world: shall we alone holde our peace? My head is bruised round about; the blood doth gush out on all sides; and shall I thinke that I must couer it? Whatsoeuer I lay thereon, it will bee bloodied: and it will turne to greater shame and confusion, that I should seeke to couer that which cannot be couered. These thinges S. Bernard wrote about the time of Pope Eugenius the third, (aboue foure hundred yeares agoe,) when Popes either had, or made a semblaunce of more honestie. What would he hauehave writen, if he had liued since, vnderunder Boniface the eighth, or Vrban the sixth, or Boniface the ninth, or Iohn the three and twentéeth, or Paule the second, or Alexander the sixth, or Leo the tenth, or him of whom I talked last, the warriour Iulius? Wherefore if I should seeke to couer them now, when in Bernards time they could not be couered: the shame which he feared might fall vponupon me, and mine owne conscience would condemne me. Looke you to it, M. Hart, who sooth vp those men of sinne in their iniquities; and call their furies, fraileties; and make a Noe, of a eeGen. 10.9.Gen 10:9Nimrod; and bring the fall of Saintes to excuse the wilfull outrages of théeues and robbers. You say that you meant by the great affaires of the Churches state, the affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome. Whatsoeuer you meant: that is the truth which I shewed by the affaires of Pope Iulius. For in the Popes language, the name of [the Church] doth signifie the Papacie, that is, the dominion and princehood of the Pope, in things both temporal and spirituall. So that when Iulius warred, either to recouer, or to enlarge y^e bounds of his dominion temporal, then was he about the affaires of the Church. And this is apparant by the Ita…ian historie writen of those affaires: dd… lib. ….wherein Faenza, and the cities which he requireth the Venetians to restore vntounto him, are called cities of the Church; and ee… 6. & 7.when hee seazeth on them by force or composition, they returne to the gouernment and obedience of the Church; and if his martiall feates doo p. 369sticke in some distresse, fflib. 7. & 9.though thinges go hard (quoth Iulius) yet God will helpe his Church; and the meanes by which, the endes whereto he fighteth, are inuested all with the Churches title, gglib. 8. & 9.the captaines of the Church, and armies of the Church, against the Churches enimies, & rebels to the Church; the Churches horsemen; the Churches footemen, the Churches subiectes, the Churches vasals: in a word, the thinges which the Pope possesseth, they are the Churches state; the hhlib. ….Churches state is said to be in perill and daunger, when he is like to lose somewhat; iilib. 9.he bindeth the Spanish king to finde him yearely three hundred men of armes to defend the Churches state; kklib. 7.hée sendeth word to sundry princes, that the French king will bring a mightie host to oppresse the Churches state; lllib. 9.the French king offreth to the Emperour, that he will helpe him **Ad occupar Roma & tutto lo stato della chiesa, come appartenente di …agi…ne all Imperio.by force of armes to get Rome and all the Churches state, as belonging by right and reason to the Empire. This is the state in deede, about the affaires whereof the Popes are busied. The affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome, are but pretenses and pillars to support this state. For, as mmEpist. 42.2… archiep. Senon.Bernard wrote of the Court of Rome, that they who went thither to multiply their church-promotions, should there finde fauorers of their lustes; 11Non quod val de Romani curent.not that the Romanes care greatly how thinges go, 22Sed quia valde diligunt munera.but because they greatly louelove bribes, and folow rewardes: so men ofskill and iudgement, who knewe the Popes thoroughly, and faithfully set foorth their liues, hauehave opened this secret and mysterie of their state, (as it hath béene menaged since it grewe to maiestie,) that they minde the propping of their owne kingdome, while they pretend the worship of Christ, as nnMat. 2.8.Matt 2:8Herode did. Pope ooGuiccia… lib. 7.Iulilius (saith his storie) did pretend godlinesse and zeale of religion: but it was ambition that moued him to his warlike interprises. When I name Pope Iulius, I name him for example. For he was neither first nor last of those Herodes. But you may gesse the rest by one.

Hart.

In déede they hauehave warred, I graunt, in time of néede: and why should they not? Though I will not defend ambition in anie of them. But this I will defend that they might lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall. For what saith S. Paul? pp1. Tim. 5.….1 Tim 5If any man hauehave not care of his owne, p. 370and specially of his domesticals: he hath denyed the faith, and is worse then an infidell. Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were: the one of a Prince, the other of a Bishop. As a Prince, he gouerneth his temporall dominion: as a Bishop, his spirituall. His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ: his temporall, a part of it. And so, though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church: yet his affaires spirituall, which stretch through all Christendoom, doo differ from his temporall, which touch the Church of Rome chieflie. For example, qqSigon de regno Ital. lib. 8.Leo the ninth, a verie good Pope, aboue fiue hundred yeares since, when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it, but could not conquer them by curses: he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours, whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes, and met them in the field manfully. At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome, and claimed it to his own Sée. Whereof when Pope Leo heard, he sent thrée legats to Constantinople, to root out that heresie. Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince, against the Normans, who set vponupon his temporall dominion with armes: the later, as Bishop, against the Patriarke, who taught heresie, a point of his spirituall charge. Affaires of this later sort let me name (for difference sake) the Church-affaires; the former, the affaires of state. And so it shall appeere, what iniurie you doo them, whom spitefully you call Herodes. For you say that the affaires which they are busied about, are their affaires of state. Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more: to sée that the Catholike religion be taught, that errors be suppressed; to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops, and parishes of able pastors: to heare appeales, determine causes, receiue supplications, excommunicate the wicked, absolue the repentant: to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church. And may not these affaires so weightie in charge, in number so manie, bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not? Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires, when they omit it for the Church?

Rainoldes.

I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them, and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem. p. 371Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians: of whom they hauehave murdered more soules, nay more thousands of soules, in one countrie, with their Herodian practises; then rrMat. 2.16. Ioseph. Antiquitat. Iudaicar. lib. 17. cap. 8.Matt 2:16Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion. And this hauehave they doon by that prophane policie, wherewith I iustlie charged them: euen by pretending the Churches state, to plant their owne; and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement. For vnderunder the coolour of binding and loosing, the credit of forgiuing sinnes, the title of S. Peters keyes, their ordering of the whole Church, and highest power in al Church-causes: they hauehave raised vp y^e tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom, and hauehave deuoured men as breade, and sold the poore for siluer, that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth. The first, and chiefest meanes, whereby they finished this worke, and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops, did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours, was excommunication. Which they, not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure, did racke it to a ciuill punishment; remouing them, not onelie from the communion of the faithfull, but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes; and putting them, as from the Church, so from the Empire too. When Emperour Leo the third, desirous to abolish the worship of Images (which then was créeping in) had caused them to be defaced, and thereupon did punish some who withstood it: ssSigon. de regno Ital. lib. 3.Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte, 11Ne ei aut tributum darēt, aut alia ratione obedirent, indixit.forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute, or obey him. Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope, a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople, and laid violent handes vponupon his Deputies & Lieutenants, of whom they slew two, and put out the eyes of the third. By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing, part of the countrie, that rebelled, was conquered by the king of Lombardie: Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vntounto the Pope. So the Pope, who till that time had béene a Bishop onelyonly, **In the yeare of Christ 727.became a Prince by treason. But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes. Who entring into league with the king of Lombards, they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome. The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie, were not strong p. 372enough to make his partie good against them: trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion, he went out with a solemne procession vntounto him, and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul, 22Principes A…tolorum.Princes of the Apostles, who 33…ret…oso suo ….with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome, and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church? and draw on him 44P…acula a … …igenda.the vengeance of Peter and Paul? he did intreate the king to giuegive the siege ouer, and make the Deputie and him friendes. Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects, entending to reuolt from him, did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince, Pope Gregory the third, and on the affiance thereof he rebelled. The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes, pursued the Duke to Rome. The Pope, not willing to deliuer the rebell, nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it, dealt (as his predecessour had doon) by supplication. But finding the matter to be past intreatie, and hoping for no aide in Italie: hee sent to Charles Martell, the king of Frances hye steward, desiring him 55Ecclesiae …eous succurre…et.to helpe the church against the Lombard. Which Charles by an embassage did, & raised the siege. Now when Charles dyed, his sonne named Pipine suc…ceded him in office: who, because Chilperike (that was king then) did no part of the kingly duty, but left the charge and burden thereof vntounto him, he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king. Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie, the Popes aduise was asked. Pope Zacharie made answere, that he, who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather, then he who did not execute it. Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king: the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike. About a two yeares after, the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna, (which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy,) thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom should now be subiect to him, who raigned in the imperiall citie, as it had béene afore time to the Emperour. In this consideration he moued warre against Stephen, the successour of Zacharie. Pope Stephen remembring his predecessors benefite bestowed on king Pipine, went to him into France: and putting him in minde of Zacharies good turne, prayed him to vndertake 66Causam bea…i Petri.the quarell of S. Peter, and of the common wealth of Rome against the Lombards. Yea in an assemblie p. 373of the Nobles of France, whom Pipine called together to know what they would say thereto: the Pope did not on…ly exhort them to warre, that they might recouer Rauenna and the Emperours land from the Lombards, but also was importu…te with them that they should not restore it to the Emperour. For (he said) the Emperour was vnworthie of it, because hee had forsaken the defense of Italie, and was an enimie to the Church. But if that king Pipine would either doo the dutie of a thankfull man, or 77Animae suae con…u…ere.prouide for his soule health, or rewarde the Popes labour: he should bestow Rauenna, and the dominion of it, with the rest of that dition, 88Bea…o Petro concederer.by way of gift, vponupon S. Peter. This sermon as soone as Pope Stephen had made, the French men agréed to warre against the Lombards & Pipine protested that if he conquered them, he would (99Pro remissione peccatoru… impetrand…. for obteining the forgiuenesse of his sinnes) giuegive Rauenna with the dominion and dition ioyning to it, vntounto S. Peter & his successou…s. According to which vow when he was come into Italy, and the Emperour sent him Embassadours with presents, desiring him, if he recouered that dition and dominion, to graunt it vntounto him, and not vntounto the Pope: he answered that being moued thereunto not with humane rewardes, but 11Diuinae promerendae grati…studio.with desire of meriting the fauour of God, he had receyued the church of Rome into protection, because he was perswaded that it would be auailable 22Ad animae su… salutem & peccatorum …emi… sionem.to the saluation of his soule, and the forgiuenes of his sinnes: and sith hee had sworne that he would graunt & giuegive it vntounto S. Peter and his successours, therefore he must performe it. Which as he saide, so he did. Neither did he geue it vntounto them more willingly, then his sonne Charles the great **In the year… of Christ 77….confirmed the gift, and added more to it, when he had made a full conquest of the Lombards, & brought into subiection the kingdom of Italy. Howbeit though the Popes were now become mightie, with spoyles of the Emperour, and had cast off his yoke from them: yet were they still subiect to Charles the great, king of Italie and France, whom afterwarde they called the Emperour of the Romanes, as the other the Greeke Emperour. For though Charles gaue the countries to the Pope: yet tt…. de … Ital. lib. 4.hee reserued 11Iu…, prin…patum▪ & …the right, soueraintie, and roialtie thereof, to him selfe. And when (his race decaying) Otho the great had gotten the Italian kingdome: p. 374uuSigon. lib. 7.Rome, and the rest of the Popes dominions, regarded 22Pontifi…m vt reipub. principem, Regem, vt summum Dominum.the Pope, as Prince of the common wealth, but the king (or Emperour) as their soueraine Lord; and did yéeld tributes and seruices to him. So that the Pope was but a vasall to the Emperour, and held of him in fée. The chiefest meanes whereby they cast of this yoke also, was excommunication, not Christian but Papall excommunication, such as they had practized against the Gréeke Emperour. Pope Gregorie the seuenth was the beast that did it. The occasion was the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings, which xxSigon. lib. 4. & 7.the Popes themselues had graunted to the Emperours, Charles, and Otho: yea the giuing of the Bishopricke of Rome, and choosing Popes. But when they had gotten of them that they sought, and were growne lustie and fatt by their meanes: they saw that the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings did abate that power, to which they aspired. Wherefore vnderunder colour that the Emperours gaue them not fréely, but for mony: yylib. 9.they taught that lay men ought not to giuegive them at all, and cursed both the giuers and receiuers of them. Hereupon there arose great strife betwéene the Pope, and the Emperour Henrie the third: in the flames whereof Pope Gregorie the seuenth did (11A…di me princ…s Apostolorum Petre. Iure autoritatis tuae. by the right of S. Peters authoritie) depriue him of his whole Empire, discharge his subiects of their oth, and forbidde them to obey him. The Princes of Germanie not knowing the boundes either of S. Peters authoritie, or of the Popes, thought them selues bound to disobey their Emperour, and so rebelled against him. Pitifull and lamentable were the griefes and contumelies which the poore Emperour was faine to endure betweene the Pope and Papistes, while sundrie waies he sought to retaine his state. But in fine Rodulph, a Duke, one of his subiectes, was chosen Emperour against him. The Pope, to strengthen Rodulph, sent him a kingly crowne: and pricking him forward to defend valiantly the Church against Henrie, did graunt (22…, frater tuus. Nomine vest…o. in the name of Peter and Paule) 33Omnium peccatorum remi… sionem veniam que, in hac & in …ra vita.a pardon and forgiuenes of all sinnes both in this life, and in the life to come, to all that were obedient and faithfull vntounto him. When that would not s…rue, (for the newe Emperour was staine by Henrie in the field;) his owne naturall children were raised against their father: first Conrade, the eldest; then Henrie, the next. Which Henrie spoiled him at last of the Empire, and brought p. 375him to such miserie, that he was faine to begge meat and drinke of the Bishop of Spier, in a Church which him selfe had built, promising to earne it, by doing there a clerkes duetie, for hee could serue the quire. And not obteining that, he pined away, and died for sorow. This dreadfull example of Henrie the third aduaunced much the credit of the Popes authoritie. The more, because that when **Archiepiscopus Mogun…inus.Vecilo, the chiefest Bishop of the Germanes, had denyed in the time of those sturres and troubles, that the Emperour might be depriued of his crowne and kingdom by y^e Pope: there was a Councel gathered, in which (y^e Popes legate being present at it) Vecilo 44H…reseos est no…a…us. In the yeare of Christ▪ 1085.was condemned of heresie for that opinion. For when the doctrine also was receiued (besids the practise) that the Pope might lawfully depose kings and Emperours: it made the tallest cedars of Libanus to shake, and to feare **Iudg. 9.15.Judg 9:15the bramble, least fyre should come out from him and consume them. Which appeered in Henrie the fourth, the next Emperour. zzSigon. lib. 1….Who, though he began to tread his fathers steppes, and tooke Pope Paschal prisoner, whereby they grewe to composition confirmed by the Popes othe, that Bishops and Abbats chosen by free voices should be inuested with ring and staf…e by the Emperour without Simonie, and being so inuested might lawfully receiue consecration of their archbishop; but he who were chosen by the clergie, and people, and not inuested by the Emperour, should be consecrated of no man: yet when he was set at libertie againe, and breaking his couenants … with open periurie, condemned both the graunt which he had made to the Emperour, and the Emperour himselfe, and that with the consent of many Bishops of sundrie prou…es in **The former in the yeare 1112. the later 1116.two Councels held at Rome; the Emperour, afraid of his fathers ende, was glad to surrender the graunt of Pope Paschal into the hands of Pope Calistus, and to restore him the possessions and 55Regalia bea…i ….royalties of S. Peter. Thus was the Pope n…w become at the least the Emperours péere. One policie there is left, whereby he became the Emperours Lord. When Charles the great, king of …raunce by inheritance, of Italie by conquest, had after great benefites bestowed on the Papacie restored Pope Leo cast out by the Romans, and come himselfe in person to Rome to see him setled: aaSigon lib. …the Pope in recompense and token of a thankefull minde thought good to honour him with the title p. 376of Emperour. Which he did with ioly ceremonies and solemnitie, laying an imperiall robe vponupon his bodie, a crowne of gold vponupon his head, anoynting him (as bb…. King. 1.3….Sadok did Salomon) with oyle, the people crying out thrise with ioyfull shoutes, God saue Charles the great, the godly Emperour of the Romans. This honour, the posteritie of Charles which succéeded him, ccSigon. lib. 5. in Carolo Cal…:some times the Pope desired them, ddIn Ludouico Balbo, & Carolo Crasso.sometimes themselues desired and vsed to receiue with the like solemnitie and holy pompe at Rome, as their father had. In processe of time the race of Charles lost the kingdome of Italie: and Otho the German got it (as Charles did) by conquest. eelib. 6.Otho was crowned Emperour with the like solemnitie. fflib 7.And, from that time forward, he that was king of Germanie held also the kingdome of Italie with the westerne Empire, and therefore did receiue three crownes: one of Germanie at Aken, by the Bishop of Mens; an other of Italie at Milan, by the Bishop of Milan; the third of the Empire at Rome by the Pope. Neither did he vse the title of Emperour before the Pope had crouned him: but was called the king of Germanie and Italie, or, the king of Romans, and **Imperator de…gnatus.Emperour appointed. But the Pope, as a wise and politike Prince, turned this point of ceremonie into a point of substance, when he saw his time: and because he gaue the title of Emperour, and set a crowne on Emperours heads; he sought to perswade men that he gaue the Empire and right of the crowne. The time fit to doo it was when the troubles of the two Henries, and the Councels sentence against Bishop Vecilo, had bredde an opinion that the Pope had right to depose Emperours. For thereof men would gather that he had right to make them also. Wherefore ggSigon. lib. 11.when Lotharius, the next after the Henries, was crowned Emperour at Rome: Pope Innocent the second, who set the crowne vponupon him, **In the yeare of Christ 1133.caused the dooing of it to be painted on a wall in his palace of Lateran, and vnderunder the picture these verses to be writen.