Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 6 · Floating text – Letter 2

Conference Between Rainolds and Hart · Chapter 6 · Floating text – Letter 2

p. 376Rex venit ante fores,

iurans prius vrbis honores:

Pòst homo fit Papae,

sumit quo dante coronam.

The king doth come before the gate▪

first swearing to the cities state:

The Popes 66The Popes vasall. For homo here is vses, as the name of homage is deri…ed from it. So that it noteth the duety and seruice, which tenants and vasals doo owe vntounto their Lordes.man then doth he become,

& of his gift doth take the crowne.

So finely by the Popes painting, and poetrie, was the feate wrought, and as it were the whéele of thinges turned about: that, p. 377whereas the Pope before held his Princedome of the Emperour in fee: now must the Emperour be thought to hold his Empire of the Pope in …ee. For though it be said that 77Pict…ribus a… que Po….Painters and Poets may faine by authoritie: yet he and his mates, w…o fained this pageant, did meane it should be taken for a matter of truth. The proofe whereof appeared **In the yeare of Christ 1157.not many yeares after in the next Emperour that was crowned at Rome, euen Friderike the first. hhSigon. lib. 12.The Pope who crowned him (it was Pope Nicolas Breake-speare, called Adrian the fourth,) sending by occasion two legates vntounto him, Rowland, and Bernard, Cardinals, with letters concerning the thing for which hée sent them: did mention therein what honorable curtesie hee had shewed the Emperour, and giuen him this 88Beneficium.benefite, that he 99Contulimus.bestowed the crowne of the Empire on him. Which letters being read, the Emperour and his Nobles tooke it very euill that the Pope should write that he had giuen the Emperour the crowne of the Empire by way of a benefite. And fearing least thereby he should meane that, 11Quod quidam etiam dictitabant.which some auouched also commonly, that the kinges of Germanie doo obteine the Empire by the benefite of the Popes, (for 22Siquidem idem etiam sub Lothario pictura Lateranensi ae versibus haud ambigue erat expressum.the picture & verses in the Palace of Lateran did plainely signifie as much:) they could not containe their griefe, but they must needes say, that the Empire is not the Popes benefite. To whom when Cardinall Rowland, one of the legates, replyed, And whose is it then, if it bee not the Popes? Otho, the Countie Palatine, standing by, was moued so with that spéech, that he drew his sword and would hauehave slaine the Cardinall. But the Emperour stayed him, and willed the legates to get them backe to Rome straight, and signified by letters throughout all Germanie what embassage the Pope had sent him: adding that he acknowledged the Empire to be giuen him by God alone, and by the Princes who had chosen him; and therefore desired them, that they would not suffer the maiestie of the Empire, so worthily gotten by their auncestours, to be empaired by their default. The Pope, vnderstanding by the returne of his legates both in what perill they had béene, and what the Emperour answered: wrote letters thereupon to the Bishops of Germanie, wherein he willed them to deale with the Emperour & make him do his duetie. The Bishops spake vntounto him, & he answered them, y^t he obeied the Pope p. 378gladly: but the crowne of the Empire hee accounted him selfe to hauehave receyued of God chiefly, and next of the Princes Electours of Germanie; his regall coronation, of the Bishoppe of Cooleine; his imperiall, of the Pope. As for the Cardinalls whom the Pope had sent: hee forbad them to go forward, because he found that they had brought letters from the Pope to the endamaging of the Empire. Heretofore the Empire hath lifted vp the Church: but now the Church (saith he) doth presse downe the Empire. 11…ptum est … pictura…inde ve…tum est ad scripturam: nunc scripturae autoritas comparatur.It began with painting: thence it came to writing: now is the writing sought to be maintained by autoritie. I will not suffer, nay I will rather leaue my crowne, then I will permit the autoritie of the Empire to be diminished any way. 22Pictura deleatur: scriptura …ocetur.Let the picture be razed out, let the writing be called backe, that there remaine not monuments still to raise strife betweene the kingdome and the priesthood: and then shall there no duty be wanting of my part towardes the church of Rome. This answere of the Emperour séemed so reasonable to the German Bishops: that they aduised and wished Pope Breake-speare to pacifie his wrath with a gentler embassage. The Popes chiefest instruments to plucke downe Henry the third, were the German Bishops. Wherefore Pope Breake-speare, perceyuing that they were not so forwarde against Friderike, as they had béene against Henry, was f…ine to folow their aduise. So he sent two wiser and discréeter legates, writing by them vntounto him, that there was no cause why hee should be offended with his former letters. For though other men (saith he) take the word [benefit] in an other sense; yet you should hauehave taken it in that in which we tooke it, and which it seemeth to hauehave by the first originall. For 88Beneficium. non se …, sed bonum …a…tum. Feud…m, a thing holden in see, … man … of a… …, and oweth him …. ho…o…, and … for it.it is compounded of two wordes, good and fact: and it signifieth, not a thing that is giuen in …ee, but a good fact. As it is vsed throughout the whole course of the holy scripture: wherein we are saide to bee guided and nourished by the benefit of God, **Non ….not as though wee had these thinges of him in fee, but as of his blessing, and a good fact of his. Now we (as you know) did set vponupon your head the crowne of the Empire so well and so honourably, that all men may iudge it was a goodfact. And so were the other wordes mistaken also, we bestowed on you the crowne of the Empire. p. 379For by this worde [99Co…u…us tibi insigne imperialis …, id es…, imposiumus. bestowed] we meant nothing els, but, we set it vponupon you. The Emperour had required the picture to be razed out, the writing to be called backe. But hée must be content (and so he was) with this Papall mitigation of the writing, made somewhat …mother by the Legates. The picture was too good an euidence to be defaced. And, for all this smoothing of the writing too, Pope Breake-speare ceased not to quarell with him still, and to encroch vponupon him. The Emperour exacted hi… tribute to be taken vp in the Popes dominion: the Pope sent him worde that he should not exact it, but at his coronation onelyonly. The Emperour required Bishops to doo him homage and to be sworne to him: the Pope wrote sharpe letters and reproued him for it. The Emperour, being offended with the Popes letters, wrote somewhat sharply backe, and iiFriderike the Emperour to Adr…n the Pope.set his name before the Popes, and kkThat is (as we say in English) hee did Thou him.spake to him in the singular number: the Pope againe wrote to him that he marueiled why he gaue not due reuerence to 11Beato Petro & sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae.S. Peter, and to the holy Church of Rome. The Pope required him not to binde the Bishops of Italie to doo him homage ▪ the Emperour saide he was content not to seeke their homage, if they would be content not to hold his lordships. The Pope would not hauehave him send messengers to Rome, vnlesse he made him priuie to it, sith all in that citie were 22S. Petri magistratus cum vniuersis regalibus.S. Peters magistrates, with the whole royaltie: the Emperour said that that point did neede more consultation; for so the Roman Emperour should hauehave the bare name of a ruler onelyonly, if the Citie of Rome, whence he is named the Roman Emperour, were not subiect to him. Upon these dealinges and answeres too and fro, the matter was debated betwéene the Popes legates (foure Cardinalls) and the Emperour, to bring them to agréement. The Emperour professed that hee would both giuegive and receiue iudgement. The Popes legates answered, that, 33Aequum … vt solum acciperet N…que ….it was meete, he should receyue it onelyonly: sith the Pope is not subiect to any mans iudgement. Whereto when the Emperour saide that he would stand to the arbitriment of sixe Cardinalls, and sixe Bishops, or Princes: the legates were content to write thereof vntounto the Pope. They wrote, and the Pope refused the condition. To be short they agréeed not, while Pope Breake-speare liued. But the lustie Cardinall Rowland who succéeded him, and being Pope was named Alexander the third, llSigo… l…b. ….did so rowse vp Fridericke p. 380with their olde policy of excommunications Papall, and rebellions, that mmLib. 14.after great daungers of his state and life, he was enforced to yeelde at length and aske him pardon. Which being graunted on conditions, **In the yeare of Christ 1177.he came to Pope Rowland in the citie of Venice, and kissed there his feete, and gaue him the vpper hand, and 44Palaf…idum ascen…ti …t…epam …en…it.held his stirrup while he was m…unting on his palf…ie. So by treading downe the Emperour Fridericke, the Popedome was aduanced to be the highest state in earth; and Peters chaire got Caesars right. If nnSigo…. lib 15.Henry the fifth (the sonne of Fridericke) sought to stay it, by seazing on 55S. Petri patrimonium, & patrimonia Ecclesiae.S. Peters lands, & giuing them to thrée Dukes to be held of him in fée: he sought to stay a water-course, which the more you stoppe it, the fiercer it doth breake out. For Philip his brother, the greatest of the thrée, was excommunicated straight: and Pope Innocentius the third (watching his time) drew the two swordes out against them all: discharged their subiectes of their allegiance and oth; and set both his clergie and laitie vponupon them; neither left them til he h…d vanqui…ht them, what with curses, what with warres; and that which Pope Rowland had well begoon, **In the yeare of Christ 1198.he nobly finished. Thus hauehave I touched briefly the storie of the temporall state and kingdom of the Popes, how …h…y clime… vp to the soueraintie of it. The truth of which storie is cléere by the monuments of historians worthie credit, ooHistor. Longobard. lib. 6. & Miscell. l. 21.Paulus Diaconus, ppOth… Frising in Chron. lib. 5.6. & 7. & de reb. gest. Frideric. imper…t.Otho, qqDe rebus gest. Friderici imperat.Radeuicus, rrDe rebus gest. Francorum.Aimo…nus, ssChronic. lib. 2.Rhegino, ttIn Chronico.Sigibertus, and uuAdo Vienn. in Chron. aetat. 6. Witichind. de reb. gest. Saxon. Gotthofrid. Viterb. Chron. part. 17. Lambert. Schafnab. in histor. Germanor.others who liued at the same times, wherein the seuerall thinges were done. Yea xxAdo Vienn. aetat. 6. A…moin. lib. 4. c. 90. Rhegino lib. …. Otho Frit. de gest. Frider. l. 1. c. 7. Radeuic. lib. 1. cap. 10 15 & 16. Sigibert. in Chron. ad ann. Christ. 1088. and so forth the rest.they, in sundrie pointes and circumstances of importance, hauehave opened partly more, partly the same more forcibly, then as I hauehave touched it. But lest you should suspect that some of them perhaps speake somewhat of affection, against the Popes, or for the Emperours: I hauehave contented my selfe to touch no more, nor with more aduantage, then Sigonius in his storie of the kingdome of Italie, presented **To Iames Bon-companion, P…pe Gregorie the thirtenths sonne. Sigon praefat. ad histor.to the Popes sonne, and writen for the Popes glory (as it became the Popes reader,) hath set downe, out of them and other monuments, as most true. Whereby it is verie apparant and euident th… vnderunder pretense of the Churches state, of the Church-discipline in excommunication, of the Church-doctrine in meritorious workes, of the Church autoritie in forgiuing sinnes, in teaching men their dueties, in dispensing p. 381with othes, and lastly of the yyKiantz. Saxoniae. lib. 9. cap. 15. Solen…tates per ecclesiam introductae.Church-solemnities in setting crownes on Emperours heads; the Pope hath gathered iewels to decke the triple zzWhich crowne they call Regnum. Platin. in Paul secund. Guicci ardin. hist. … lib. 9.crowne of his worldly kingdome, and hath made himselfe not onelyonly a Prince, but also a Prince of Princes of the earth. It was almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ, when he obtained this soueraintie. Sith the which time he hath more notoriously built vp his Babylon with the stones of Sion. The common wealth is witnesse hereof in the calamit…s of her ciuill gouernours. Whom, by the deuises of the same treacheries, he hath depriued of kingdomes, goodes, libertie, and life, when they hauehave stoode in his light: as the realmes of aaPolyd. Virg. hist. Angl. l. 15England, of bbPaul. Aemy l. de reb. gest. Frane. lib. 8. Gaguin. lib. 7.France, of ccKrantz. Saxon. l. 7. c. 34. & 38. & l. 8. c. 6. & l. 9. c. 14.Germanie, of ddKiantz. Wandaliae. l. 12. c. 36.Boheme, of eeBellai. comment. de reb. Gall. lib. 1.Nauarre, & the states of ffNic. Machian. histor. Flor. lib. 8.Florence, ggIoui. de vit. Leon. decim. lib. 3. & de vit. Adrian. sexti.Vrbine, hhGuicciardin, hist. Ital. lib. 8.Venice, in Italie, hauehave tried to their smart. But the Church hath tried it with greater smart in her spiritual pastors. For, as Samuell, when the Israelites would hauehave a king to rule them, (as other nations had,) ii1. Sam. 8.11.1 Sam 8:11tolde them that the king, who should raigne ouer them, would play the king with them, and theirs; hee would take their sonnes and appoint them to waite vponupon him, to bee his horsmen, footemen, captaines, to eare his land, to reape his haruest, to make him instruments of warre, & instruments to serue his charets; he would take their daughters to dresse him sweete ointments, and be his cookes, and bakers; hee would take their fieldes, and vineyardes, and oliue trees, the best, & giuegive them to his seruants; yea the tenth of their seede, and of their vineyardes, & giuegive it to his courtiers, and to his seruants; he would take their men, their maydes, their youth, their cattel, & put them to his worke; he would take the tenth of their flockes; and, to conclude, they should be his seruants: euen so, when the Pope had gotten the kingdome, that is, the supremacie, ouer the Israelites of God, that is, Christians; he tooke their sonnes & daughters, nay their fathers and mothers, who should beget them in the gospell, and féede them with the milke of life, and appointed them to serue him, to be his Chauncellors, Treasurers, Secretaries, Maisters of requestes, Clerkes of the Escheker, Legates, in peace to goe on embassages, in warre to looke vntounto his armies; he tooke their bishoprickes, and benefices, and prebendes, the best, and gaue them to his seruants, yea the first fruites and tithes of their liuings, and gaue them to his Courtiers p. 382and to his seruants; he tooke their pastours, their doctours, their elders, their deacons, and put them to his worke; hee tooke the tithe of their Churches, nay their whole Churches; and, to conclude, both they and theirs were made to serue him. If you, M. Hart, who hauehave béene at Rome, and séene the Popes person, hauehave not yet perceiued this policie of the Pope: your want of experience, or rather your education in a Popish Seminarie, (where other kinde of bookes are giuen you to reade then as bewray such mysteries,) may beare the fault of it. But there are two Italians of your owne profession, Franciscus Sansouinus, and Onuphrius the Frier: of whom kkSansouino del gouern. de regn. & dell… …epub. lib. 11.the one hath writen a treatise of the gouernment of the Court of Rome; llOnuphr. de Roman. Pontisicib. De episcop. tit. & d…conijs Card. De vitis Pontific.the other, sundry bookes of the Popes and Cardinals. By them you may learne it. For Onuphrius sheweth mmLibr. de episcopatibus, titulis, & diaconiis Cardinalium.that there are three sortes of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals, the first Bishops; the second, Priestes; and the last, Deacons: Priestes, and Deacons, of the parishes that are within Rome; Bishops, of the cities that lie néere about it. When Rome had receiued the Christian faith, and the Church encreased there from day to day; the faithfull were diuided into sundry parishes for their better gouernment, and had Elders and Deacons ordeined to attend them. **Presbyteri.Elders, or, as you terme them, Priestes, (and I will cal them so, because I speake of Cardinals knowne by that title,) were they to whom the charge of ministring the word and sacracraments; Deacons, to whom the care for the poore of the church, and their prouision, was committed. Now at first, the parishes had each but one Priest, while they being small, one pastor could discharge the duetie. But after, when the number of the faithfull grewe, each of them had more. And 11Cardinales Presbyteri.hence did the name of Cardinals arise, that he who was chiefe amongst the Priestes of one parish was called the Cardinall Priest, that is to say, principall. In like sort 22Cardinales Diaconi.when the seuerall wardes of the citie could not be serued by seuerall Deacons, but each of them had moe: the chiefe amongst the Deacons of the same ward, was called the Cardinall Deacon. The name being worshipfull amongst Priestes and Deacons of the citie of Rome, 33Cardinales Episcopi.spread to the Bishops that dwelt néere about, and they were called Cardinall Bishops, though it were long first. For 44Apud veteres inauditum, Episcopum Cardinalem dici.amongst the auncients it was neuer heard of; neither might with reason, p. 383fith they, being equall in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinall in respect of them. Yet in time, by custome, I know not how, they got it. Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome, six are Bishops, the Bishop of Alba, Tusculum, Praeneste, Sabine, Portuese, and Ostia: the rest, whose number in olde time was certaine according to the number of parishes and wardes, now they are more or fewer, as the Pope will, (they were three score and three **In the yeare of Christ 1557.when this was writen by Onuphrius) but all the rest are Priestes, or Deacons And for almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ, although the Pope employed them much in his affaires, yet ordinarily they liued on their charge, and kept their calling and degree. The honour & power of Cardinall Bishops, was as the Bishops of other cities. The Cardinal Priests, and Deacons, were neither Bishops themselues, nor equall vntounto them in dignitie. And if a Cardinall Priest were chosen (as worthy of a greater charge) to be a Bishop els where: he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinall, because 11Antiquis canonibus cautum, vnum hominem non nisi vno sacerdotio potiri posse.it is ordered by the auncient rules of ecclesiasticall discipline, that one man may hauehave but one ecclesiasticall charge, and therefore no man might be a Cardinall Priest of Rome, and Bishop of an other Church. But 22Sub Alexandro tertio Romana Ecclesia ad maximum in terris fastigium euecta fui… Imperatore …riderico conculcato.after that the Pope had trodde the Emperour vnderunder féete, & lifted vp his own throne aboue the highest thrones on earth: he lifted vp withall 33Cardinalium maiestas cum Romani Pontificis autoritate creuit.the maiest…ie of the Cardinals, as of his Noble men and Counsellours, and vsed them as principall pillars of his state. He gaue to them alone the right of choosing the Pope: the people, Prince, and clergie being robbed of it. He decked them with honour of wearing redd hattes: and going, first, before Bishops; afterward, before Arch-bishops; and at the last, before Patriarkes. nnOnuphr. de Romanis Pontificibus & Cardinalibus.He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and prouinces, as of Yorke (for example) and Canterburie in England; Rhemes and Roan, in France; Toledo, in Spaine; Lisbon, in Portugall; Milan, Rauenna, Venice, in Italie; in Germanie Coolcin, Trier, and Mens; in Boheme, Praga; Cracouia, in Poleland; Strigonium, in Hungarie: and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendome, to be his Cardinall Priestes and Deacons. Yea, they were glad to be so, because the Cardinalship was a degree vntounto the Popedome. ooDe episcopat▪ tit. & diacon… Card.Neither did he accustome them to giuegive ouer their Bishoply charge, that others placed in their roomes might supplie that duetie, and they might attend p. 384their charge of Cardinall Priestship and Deaconship in Rome: but for the better maintenance of their owne porte, and strengthning of the Popedome, he suffered them to keépe the liuings of their Bishoprickes and Cardinalships both. Wherein least he might séeme to breake that rule of discipline, one man to hauehave but one charge: he tooke order that they should not be called Bishops though they had Bishoprickes. How then? Forsooth, a Bishop, if he were made Cardinall Deacon, must be called elect Bishop: if he were made Cardinall Priest, must be called perpetuall administrator of his Bishopricke. As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of Yorke, when he was made Cardinall parish-priest of Rome, he must be called, not Archbishop, but Cardinall Woolsey, ppPresbyter Cardinalis, tit. S. Caeciliae, perpetuus administrator archiepiscopatus Eboracensis.Priest of S. Cecilies parish, and perpetuall administrator of the Archbishopricke of Yorke. And Aeneas Siluius, Bishop of Siena, when he was made Cardinall Deacon, must be called, not Bishop, but Cardinall Siluius, ddDiaconus Cardinal…s S. Eustachii, electus episcopus Senensis.Deacon of S. Eustaces, and elect Bishop of Siena. A shift somewhat straunge, and such as a while the Popes themselues were ashamed off: at least they vsed it sparingly, vntill the time of Clemens the fifth. He, when the yse was broken, did wade more boldly through. And after him his successours, who staide in France, as he did, and set the Sée of Rome in the citie of Auinion, did bring it to a common practise: in so much that none almost was made Cardinal, who had not a Bishopricke either 44In titulum.in title, or 55In commendam.in commenda, or 66In perpetuam administrationem.in perpetuall administration. So by these deuises (which all were inuented by the Popes at Auinion) they had now disfurnished many Churches of Bishops, to furnish, in word, the Church of Rome with Priestes, and Deacons; in déede, the Court of Rome with rich and mightie Cardinals. Yet this is the least parte of that abomination of desolation, which they hauehave set in the holy places. For vnderunder pretense, that it is their duetie to sée that all Churches be prouided of fitte pastors, they hauehave 77Reseruationes, & prouisiones.reserued Church-liuings, when and which they listed, to their own bestowing, and them hauehave they seazed on to maintaine the port of their Cardinals too. This was not onelyonly done, but also professed to be done to that ende by Clemens the sixth. Who hauing made new Cardinals, reserued the benefices in England that were void, and should be void next, (besides Bishoprickes & Abbeies) to the summe of two thousand markes, p. 385and for them he prouided two Cardinalls to be their pastours. Whereof when stay was made by king Edward the third, who seeing how the Church and realme were both decayed by tho…e prouisions for aliens, did inhibit them to bee se…u…d: ooEpist. Clemen…s Papae ad R…em Angliae Edwa. du… tert…um. Walsingam hist. Angl. i… Edward. ….Pope Clemens wrote vntounto him, that hauing lately made newe Cardinalls of the Church of Rome, he could not with reason but prouide for them, 11Secundum status sui decenti…m.as it was seemely for their state; & this he had doon by prouiding benefices which either were presently voide, or should be after, vntounto a certaine summe, for two of them in England, for the rest in other kingdomes and coastes of Christendome; through all the which almost hee had made the like prouision for new Cardinalls, neither amongst them all had found any 22Rebell…onem.rebellion, (so he termed it,) saue this in England onelyonly. The Cardinals, which Clemens had ppOnuphr. i… …om. Pon…. & Ca…di….then made, were twelue. Two of them he furnished with so many benefices, as should be woorth two thousand markes. I cannot say precisely what number that might be. But it must be noted that (as the rate of money and price of thinges hath growen) a benefice, worth thrée hundred markes or better now, was then not worth a hundred; neither did the Pope choose the fattest benefices but such as next came to the net: and hee meant his Cardinals should hauehave that pension cléere, besides their farmers shares, and vicars, or curates. So that the two Cardinals (by probable coniecture) might hauehave an hundred benefices before they had their yearely two thowsand marke pension. But let it be eightie, seuentie, sixtie: let it be fiftie: or, if that séeme too much, let it be fortie. The Pope did prouide, as for them, so for the rest: who being ten mo, must hauehave two hundred by proportion. Which proportion if it be drawne to all, nay to halfe, nay to a quarter of the Cardinals, whom Clemens and his successours hauehave made sith that time nnSith the yeare of Christ 1343. in the which Pope Clemens m…de those proui…ions for his Cardinals.for these twelue score yeares: the number of parishes will rise to many thousandes, which they hauehave laide waste, as flockes without pastors, to maintaine the state of their Cardinals onelyonly. Yet this is but a part of that abomination of desolation which they hauehave set in the holy places. For as though the profits of so many Churches were too small a liuing for the Priestes and Deacons of y^e Court of Rome: they hauehave gone forwarde from pluralities of benefices to pluralities of bishopricks. And vnderunder the colour of **Commend… al…cuius cur… whence the name of commenda comech▪ c. Obitum. c Catinensis. Dist. 61. c. Clericum. c. qui plures. 2. q. 1. c. dudum. 2. de elect. c. Nemo. de elect▪ in Sexto.commending p. 386(as they name it,) that is, commiting them to some of trust for a time, till good and godly Bishops might bee prouided for them: qqOnuphr. de e…iscopatibus …ulis & diacon…s Card.they hauehave put two Bishoprickes vntounto one Cardinall, yea sometimes three, yea foure, yea fiue, yea some times sixe. Cardinall Hippolytus, rrGuicciard. h…t. Ital. lib 6.who plucked out the eyes of the Lord Iulius his owne naturall brother, because a damsell, whom hee loued, did louelove his brother more then him, and confessed to him that it was the beautie of his brothers eyes, wherewith she was so rauished: ssOnuph. lib. de Rom. Pont. & Card.this Cardinall being deacon of S. Lucies in Rome, & Archpriest of S. Peters, had the Bishoprickes of Milan, Capua, Strigonium, Agria, Mutina, and Ferrara. Of the which sixe, three be Archbishoprickes of sundrie kingdomes and dominions, Milan, of Lombardie; Capua, of Naples; Strigonium, of Hungarie; distant ech from other some hundreds of miles: the other three are somewhat neerer to their felowes, one in Hungarie, two in Italie. But if the Popes hauehave taken sixe dioceses and prouinces lying so farre a sunder, and made them all desolate of Bishops and Archbishops, to maintaine one Cardinals pompe, and him a Deacon: what hath the desolation béene which they hauehave brought on dioceses and prouinces that might bee ioyned more fitly, to maintaine the rest, and them of higher calling, as Cardinall Priestes and Bishops? Yet behold a greater abomination of desolation then this, nay, then al these, which I hauehave touched hitherto. For ttOnuphr. de episcop tit. & diac. Card.the liuinges of the Cardinals (with uuDecret Nicolai quart. Concil. Basil. Session. 23.auailes thereto belonging) were great of themselues, and did perhaps content some: or if they did not, yet the number of those caterpillers was small in comparison. But the Popes had other hungrie knightes about them, kinsmen, officers, seruants, retainers, vasals, hangers on, and all the rable of their Court, whose liuing…s were not crummes of y^e Cardinals tables, whose number was as **Exod. 10.15.Exod 10:15the grashoppers which couered the face of Egipt. And they were also made pastors of Churches, (not to féede them, but to sléese them,) by the same conueyances of Papall reseruations, commendaes, prouisions, and other such Egyptian t…ickes. An example of it in our xxMatt. Paris in Henri…. tert. in the yeare 12…0.English Chronicles of Henry the third: in whose dayes the Pope enioyned by one mandate to y^e Bishops of Canterburie, Lincolne, and Sarisburie, that they should prouide for 11Trece…tis Romanis.thrée hundred Romans in benefices next …cant, and they should giuegive no benefice vntill they had p…ouided p. 387for so many, 22Compe…e…ter.competently. But what speake I of thrée hundred? The Romans and Italians were multiplyed so within a fewe yeares in English church liuings, by Gregorie the ninth much, but more by Innocentius the fourth: th…t **In the ye…re 1245.when the king caused a vewe thereof to bee taken throughout the whole realme, the summe of their reuenues was found to be yearely 33Sexagi… …. … rum.thrée score thousand markes, to the which summe the yearely reuenues of the crowne of England did not amount. The king though misliking the disorder greatly, yet being loth to medle with the redresse of it for feare of the Pope, (the stripes of whose wrath against his father king Iohn, against his coosen Otho the Emperour, and Othos successour Fridericke the second, were bleeding fresh before his eyes:) 44Epist. magnatum & vniuersitatis …eg… Angliae ad …nocent. Papam in Conc Lugdun.the Nobles and Commons sent a supplication to Pope Innocentius and the generall Councell assembled then at Lyons. Wherein, vponupon complaint that 55Italici, quorum nume…a… iam est infinitus.an infinite number of Italians in England had the charge of flockes, who neither fedde, nor knew, nor cared for their sheepe, 66Fructus tantum percipiunt, ex…ra regnum aspo…tantes.but receiued onelyonly the fruites & reuenues, and caried them out of the realme: that the yearely rents of Italians in England amounted to three score thousand markes, and vpward, besides diuers other auailes, which they reaped where they sowed not: that England hoped for some reliefe of these grieuances when Innocentius was made Pope, but now it is oppressed more out of measure by the Popes legat, who entring late into the land with larger power and commission then euer legate had, doth exceede excessiuely; he giueth to Italians some benefices alreadie voide, worth thirtie markes or more yearely; some, that fall voide by the decease of Italians, he thrusteth new Italians into; some he doth prouide when they shall be voide to be reserued for Italians; moreouer, he wresteth out immoderate pensions from religious persons, and 77Excommunicationis & interdicti sententijs passim supponit.vseth to excommunicate & interdict of Church-seruice, of sacraments, of Christian buriall, them who gainesay him and resist him: vponupon this complaint the Nobles and Commons of the realme of England made humble sute vntounto his fatherhood, that he wold extend the hand of mercy to his children, & ease them of those burdens of grieuances and oppressions detestable to God and men. The messengers, by whom this supplication was sent, presented it before the p. 388Pope vntounto the generall Councell. To whom they made complaint withall of a clause in the Popes **The Popes letters are called buls, of bul…, a tablet or bosse: because a bosse of lead … hanged to t…m like a …let, (hauing S. Peters image and S. Paules on one side, the Popes name on the other) with the which they are sealed.bulles, called [88That is to say, Notwithstanding. Non obstante,] by which hee brake all lawes and orders of the church to serue these his purposes. For whatsoeuer made against the tenor of his bull, he vsed to remoue it with a Non obstante. As, for example, the Churches law and order confirmed by a Councell, was, that one man should hauehave but one benefice, and none should hauehave any, but he, who could himselfe discharge the duetie personally. The Pope zzMatt. Paris in Henrico tert in the yere 1231.sendeth forth his bulles for fiue Romans, the sonne of Rumfrede, and such, and such, that they shall be prouided for of so many benefices as may be worth to each of them a hundred pounde yearely, Non obstante that law. Pope Innocent was grieued at this supplication, and complaint of England, which touched his supremacie so néere to the quicke.yyConcil. Lateran. sub Alexandr. tert. c 13. Howbeit for the present hee made them faire promises, and sent them sundry priuileges from the Councell of Lyons: that Patrones thenceforth should Liberé absque cuius…ibet contradictionis obstaculo.freely presente, and Bishops should admitte fit persons to benefices, who would and could well serue the charge: that the Clerke of his Escheker (that was his legate) should prouide but for twelue moe, without consent of the Patrones; that if English men would be studious, honest, and thankeful, (chiefely the sonnes of Noble men,) he would prouide for them also, **Super beneficiorum pluralitate hono…ifice dispensare.and dispense honorably with the worthiest of them for pluralitie of benefices; finally, that no Italian should immediately succeede an Italian; which was obtained for their treacheries, who when one that had a benefice was dead, would foyst an other into his roome. And these thinges were promised: but they were promised onelyonly. For after that the Councell was dissolued once, the Pope played the Pope, and 88Omnia haec & alia per hoc repagulun. [Non obstante] infirmantur. In the yeare 1246.brake them all with Non obstante. And as aaExod 5.9.Exod 5:9Pharao hardened his hart against Israel, and laied more worke vponupon them, when they desired ease of bondage: so did Innocent against England. In so much, that after sixe or seuen yeares, when a vew was taken againe of the bricke made of our English Israel for y^e Italian Pharao: y^e summe of those reuenues which before amounted to three score thousand marks, bbIn the yeare 1252. ad plusquam septuaginta millia marcarum.was growne to three score thousand and ten with the aduantage. Now if the outrage of this abominat…on were so monstrous in one realme▪ what was it in all, throughout the rest of p. 389Christendome? If Popes did so exceede aboue three hundred yeares ago, in the prime of their Papacie, when the iointes of it were yet scarsely knit: what is it likely they did after? If by one policy they brought so great wealth vntounto their Court and state, yea, by part of one applyed to furnish their Italians: what may bee thought of the same, applied to furnish the home-borne, each in their owne countrie? What of so many others, some of them as fruitfull as this, some more fruitfull? What of their whole gouernment: wherein they hauehave claimed a fulnes of power to doo what they list, and they hauehave put their claime in practise? What wordes may serue to vtter the spoiles which they hauehave made of the Church of Christ; first, by ordeining of the Church-officers, in creating Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarkes, and weauing palls for them; in disanulling the elections of some who lawfully were chosen; in graunting some (who could not be chosen lawfully) to hauehave the roomes by postulations; in chopping and changing their persons from one Sée to an other by translations, and their dioceses by diuisions; in giuing pastours liuings away …uer their heads by **Expectatiugratiae.reuersions, or aduowsons; in shaping newe creatures, 11Dominicans, or blacke-friers, (as they were called commonly,) …Preaching Friers, and 22Franciscans ▪ or begging friers the Popes spies.Minorites, and giuing them the power of pastours; in dispensations with boyes, dispensations with bastards, dispensations with idiotes, that they may hauehave the charge of soules; dispensations with murderers, with adulterers, with Simoniaks, that they may kepe their benefices; dispensations for pluralities, that one may hauehave twentie; dispensations for non-residence, that they néede neuer come vntounto them; to be short, in reseruaes, acces…es, regresses, coadiutories, vnions, preuentions, permutations, and a thousand such deuises belonging to the market of benefices and bishoprickes. Secondly, by dealing with the Church causes: wherein they hauehave receyued appeales from all quarters, that they might fish in troubled water; they hauehave fetched persons a thousand miles off by citations to their consistorie; they hauehave disturbed the peace and discipline of the Church by sending legates a latere, by putting matters to their delegates, by priuileging men from lawes, and exempting inferiours from their superiours regiment; they hauehave multiplied humaine decrees, and made them snares to catch foules, lawes, that none shall mary in this or that degrée of carnall kinred, p. 390or 33Spiritual kinred, is a kinred imagined by the Pope to be betwixt them, who are lincked by suretyship for … in baptisme, as godfathers, godmothers, godchildren godbrothers, godsisters, & gossyps, as they are called.spirituall; canons, that men whose persons hauehave such or such a blemish shall not ascend to priestly orders; vowes, of pilgrimage, of chastitie, of pouertie, of obedience, of Nunrie, Moonkry, Fryery; which all they hauehave released for money; yea, they hauehave released othes, solemne othes, and hauehave giuen licences to commit periurie: they hauehave made sale of forgiuenes of sinnes, and marchandize of mens soules: they hauehave turned repentance into paines of penance, and penance into mines of siluer and golde: they hauehave proclaimed Iubilees of pardons plenarie (as they call them) to all who came to Rome eueryevery hundreth yeare, and visited Churches there **Hic des deuo… coelestibus associote. Mentes aegrotae per munera sunt ibi lotae. Ergo venitote gentes a sede re notae. Qui da cis, estote certi de diuite dote.deuoutly: these Iubilees they hauehave abridged from an hundred yeares to fiftie, from fiftie to thirtie thrée, from thirtie thrée to twentie fiue; & because all Christians came to not Rome for them, they hauehave sent their pedlers abroad with p…ckes of pardons, that all might buye them at their doores: they hauehave reserued cases and crimes of greatest value, as Simonie, Sodomie, offense of Church-liberty, from which none might absolue but they: and, to absolue men vponupon doing of penance, they hauehave built at Rome a Papall exchange called the Penitentiarie, where these absolutions are sold at certaine rates: neither being satisfied by this exchaunge with the liuing, they hauehave sold their wares vntounto the dead also (but y^e liuing must pay for them,) so many crownes, so many soules to be forgiuen all their sinnes, and rid out of the paines of purgatorie. Thirdly, by disposing of the Church-goods, which they hauehave conueyed (as ccLuc. 16.8.Luke 16:8the vniust, but wise steward ▪) from the Lord to serue them selues: they hauehave charged the liuinges of Churches and Churchmen with pensions, tributes, subsidies: they hauehave exacted of them fifteenes, tenthes, fiftes, thirdes, moyities of their substance, to the maintenance of warres which they hauehave waged with the Emperours: they hauehave robbed benefices to enrich Abbeies by appropriations, that afterwarde themselues might gleane the greater fruit of Abbeyes: they hauehave made Prelates, and such as would be Prelates, to compound with them selues, for 44Pa…les are litle tipets made of holy wooll of the Popes lambes. A todde wherof is worth him more then a kinges ransom. For the power of Archbishops & Patriarkes doth lye in them. And they who will weare them, must fetch them far, and buye them …eare.palls, for crosier-staues, for miters, for ringes, for signing of billes, and to compound with their seruants for writing, perusing, subscribing, allowing, conferring, registring, taxing, receyuing, keeping, deliuering, and for the coarde and lead, wherewith their bulles are tyed and sealed: they hauehave deuised new officers, p. 391yea new heardes and companies of officers in their chauncery, purposely to this intent that they might sell those roomes, the which being sold for many thousand crownes they forced poore suters, who came to Rome for grace or iustice, to pay it, by enhauncing the charges of their bulles: the armie of their Registers, Notaries, Protonotaries, Enditers, Writers, Abridgers, Dataries, Rescribendaries, Accounters, Soliciters, 55Plumba… res. So they cal the cle…kes of the signet, because they seale with leadPlummers, Regarders, Regentes, Poursuiuants, Clerkes of their Ceremonies, Clerkes of their chamber, Clerkes of their eschequer, and infinite other peasantes they hauehave kept in wages with the price of Christians bloud: they hauehave raised an yearely and ordinarie reuenue of first fruites, of tithes, of the goods of Abbats, Bishops, and Cardinals deceased, which they hauehave seazed vponupon, as exectors, and when they hauehave licensed them to make testaments, yet hauehave they kept them selues a share, as, of eueryevery Cardinall (beside fiue hundred ducates which he payeth for his 66The Pope doth giuegive a ring to him whom he createth Cardinal. And for that ring the Cardinall at his death must pay the Pope fiue hundred ducats ▪ which is some what deerer then goldsmiths sell them in cheapside.ring) all his chappell-iewels, ornaments, and vessels, whether of gold or siluer, crosses, candlestickes, chalices, Images, and other such eschetes: and, in a word, their ginnes & hookes hauehave béene so many to get the goods of men out of al coastes, into their coffers, that ddTheodori…. a Niem in Nemor. vnion. T…act. 6. cap. 37.a Roman Courtier saith, **Camera Apo…to ica assimilatur mari. in quod intrant omnia flumina, & non inundat.the Popes eschequer is like vntounto the Sea, whereinto all riuers doo runne, and yet it ouerfloweth not. Fourthly, by abusing of the Churchcensures: for what els should I call it? when they hauehave vsed them as instruments of violence, to compasse all that they did couet. If any, eyther Patrone, or Bishop, or Archbishop refused to commit the charge of English flockes to Roman pastors, or rather woolues: if any reproued the wicked sale and godlesse chaffer of their dispensations, absolutions, pardons: if any would not yeelde to pay them such taxes as they required by their legats, their marchants, their collectors, their nuntios, spies, & poursuiuāts: straight, as y^e person was, so came a censure out against him, either suspension from administring his office, or interditement from vse of Church-seruice, or excommunication from the felowship of Christians, or citing him to Rome to chastise him by correption, or denouncing him an heretike if he continued rebellious, and then the secular power must burne him. A practise so common, that ordinarily the Auditour of the Popes Eschequer is autorized to excommunicate and execute other p. 392censures, if the Courtisans, (who pay tribute for license to bee common whoores) & other farmers of holy rents, kepe not touch in bringing in. And because these censures hauehave not preuailed alwayes to atchieue their purposes: therefore as they enlarged them against ciuill powers to purchase somewhat thence, (as from the king of England, beside his Peter-pence, a thousand markes yearely, which yet was but a pety-larceny:) so they strengthned them against ecclesiasticall by the othe of fealty (which they hauehave woon of Prelats,) to maintaine the Papacie and royalties of S. Peter. Chiefly by winding in autoritie withal, that they may depriue them, and none may depriue Bishops, but they. That if Bishops will not agrée to them in all thinges, when they are commanded in vertue of obedience: yet for feare of léesing their liuinges and promotions, yea their libertie, yea their life, (if they be in the Popes subiection) they may learne to serue their Lord. But the head of all, whereby those wilde boares hauehave made the chiefest wast of the Lordes vineyarde, is the fifth and last point: their making and establishing of the Church-lawes. For if they had doon, and onelyonly doon these vilanies: they might séeme to hauehave doon them, as men, not as Popes; and it might be hoped, when one tyrant were gone, the next would gouerne well. But they hauehave confirmed the dooing of them by their lawes, and procured those lawes to be receiued as canons & rules of the Church-gouernment: their Decretals, their Clementines, their Extrauagants, in déed extrauagant, their constitutions Apostolike, and their vnruly rules of the Apostolike chauncerie. The grosse intent and practise whereof is so palpable, that Budaeus, a learned lawier, the French kinges secretarie, making a complaint of the great disorder of the Popes, and clergie, doth lay the blame thereof vponupon their lawes and iurisdiction. eeGulielmus Budaeus de asse & partibus eius, lib. 5.It is growne (saith he) so much out of kinde from the auncient louelove, that where there was wont to be a motherly lappe of equitie and goodnes, there seemeth now to be 11Litium officina capturarū que improb…orum.a shoppe of law-quarels, and lewder meanes to gaine by. Thence come those snares of processes, and cautions of the Popes ordinances, 22Ad circumscribendam familiam Domini cōcinnatae.deuised to deceiue the houshold of the Lord. Thence come the punishments of sinne by the purse, to the encrease of Prelates profits. Thence 33Sacrilegae mundinae.the sacrilegious & cursed sales of those things p. 393which cannot be brought into mens traffike without abomination. I omit 44Tesseras non modó veniales sed etiam …ae… les.their dispensations, which giuegive leaue for money to sinne without punishment, and licence the breach of sacred lawes for filthie lucre. So the holy canons and rules of church discipline, made in better times to guide the life of cle…gie men: are now become 55In amusse… plumbea… e…asisle, …uis non videt…leaden rules, such as Aristotle saith the rules of Lesbian building were. For as leaden and soft rules doo not direct the building with an equall tenour, but are bowed to the building at the lust of the builders: so are the Popes canons made flexible as lead and waxe, that 66Iam diu.now this great while the decrees of our auncestors, and the Popes canons serue not to guide mens maners, but (that I may so say) 77Arg…ntariae facutandae.to make a banke and get money. These thinges **In the yere of Christ 1514. about a three yeares before …eo the tenth grew to that outrage which Luther dealt against. … lib. 13. Slei…an. lib. 1.wrote Budaeus, before Luther stirred against the Popes pardons. So manifestly tended the lawes of the Popes to their owne profit, and not to the Churches, euen in the eyes of sober Papistes. And thus hauehave you the summe of that which I said you might learne by the writings of your owne men, Onuphrius, and Sansouinus. For whereas the Fathers of the Councell of Basill, entending and endeuouring to reforme the Church, did straiten the fulnes of the Popes power, by ffConcil. Basil. Session. 7.12.23. & 31.cutting off the most of his reseruations, all his ggSess. 31.aduowsons, and hhSess. 12.21. & 23.compositions; by abbridging his iiSess. 31.citations, kkSess. 26.dispensations, llSess. 20. & 31.appeales, mmSess. 4. & 23.the number and liuinges of his Cardinals; and chiefly by nnSess. 2.3.18.26.31▪ & 33▪defining (after the ooConcil. Constant. Sess. 4. & …Councell of Constance,) that the Pope is bound to obey the Councell, and so is subiect to it: ppIn …oman. Pontif. & Cardinalib.Onuphrius saith thereof, that they vnderunder pretense of reforming the church did seeke to take away and abrogate altogether the most of 11Priuilegi….the priuileges of the church of Rome, yea them that were 22Magis necessaria.most needfull. Which sentence bewrayeth the mysteries that I spake off, if it be marked well. Chiefly, if it be ioyned with his qqDe episcop. tit. & diacon. Cardinalium.discourse of Cardinals, and rrIn vitis Po… tificum ad…unctis Platinae.storie of the Popes liues: wherein he declareth to what end they vsed those most needful priuileges. Howbeit, in **As namely in the liues of Alexā …er y^e sixth and Leo … tenth.their practise of the fowlest of them, hee is somewhat close: and partly doth smooth them, partly doth passe them ouer. But Sansouinus is more open: though as a fréend also of the Popes state. p. 394For, setting forth ssGouerno della Corte Roman. Del gou. de reg. & delle repub. lib. 11.the gouernment of the Court of Rome, first, in the Consistorie; next, in the Penitentiarie; then, in y^e Courts of requestes, one of grace, the other of iustice; afterwarde, in the Chauncerie; and last of all in the Escheker: he toucheth in effect as much as I hauehave said of the excesses of the Popes, in ordeining the officers, dealing with the causes, disposing the goods, abusing the censures, and making lawes of the Church. Yea, a point more; which sheweth manifestly their growing out of kinde from Bishoply state to Princely: to wéete, that there is an ordinarie Prelate, called **Vicario di Roma.the Vicar of Rome, to whom they hauehave commited the charge of al those thinges within the Romane diocese, that belong to any Bishop in his diocese, and so to them in theirs, as Bishops of Rome properly. In fine, if any branch of the particular pointes, wherewith I hauehave charged them, be not so plaine and ful in Sansouinus, or Onuphrius: I shall declare it farther, and proue it, if you will, by the records, and testimonies of your owne ttMatthew Pa…is, and Thomas Walsingam, in the English storie: Guicciardin, in the Italian: Aemylius, in the French: Krantzius, in the Saxon: Theodorike Niem, of the Popes: and so forth others, of other states & countries.Chroniclers, uuFranciscus Picus Mirand. in orat. ad Lateran. Concil. de moribus reformandis. Polyd. Virgil. de inuentoribu… rerum. Magist. ceremon. sanct. eccles. Rom. Taxae Romanae Paenitentiariae.Antiquaries, xxCanonist. comment. & Gloss. in Ius Canonicum. Duaren. de sacris ecclesiae minist. ac benef. Petr. Rebuff▪ Praxis beneficiaria.Lawiers, yyDurand. de modo celebrand. concil. gener. Petr. de Aliac. Card. de reformat. eccles. Hieron. Pauli Barchinon. Practica cancell a…e Apost. Fran. Victoria …elect. 2. & 4. Concilium delectorum Cardinalium.Doctors, and zzPope Gregorie the much, Boniface the eighth, Clemens the fifth, and the rest who were autours of the Decretals, Clementines, and Extrauagants. Pope Pius the second, in Epist. praesertim de moribus German. Pope Leo the tenth▪ in Concil. Lateran Session. 9.10. & 11. Pope Paul y^e third, in Reg. Cancellar. Apost. Pope Iulius the third, in perpet. constitut. de quingentis ducatis Cardinalium. Pope Pius the fifth and Gregorie the thirteenth in Ecloge Bullar. & Motu proprior.Popes. Whereupon I am content to make euen your selfe iudge, M. Hart, (if the bogges of Popery hauehave not quenched all sparkles of conscience, and iudgement in you,) whether that the Pope hath not erred in office, and changed his Bishops Sée into a Princes Court, and vsurped the power of imperiall State through shewes of Church-gouernment: by rebelling against the Emperour, and wresting his dominions from him; by for…ing kings, and nations to serue him, as vasals; by robbing peoples of their pastors, pastors of their liuings, the rude of instruction, the loose of correction, the distressed of comfort, the poore of reliefe and (to conclude) the Christian Church of doctrine, discipline, and hospitalitie.

p. 395Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian reader.

When I sent this part of our conference to M. Hart, that, if any thing in his owne speeches were not to his minde, he might adde, or alter, as he thought good: I penned not his answere to my former speech, but wrote these wordes vnderunder it.

I pray, M. Hart, make and penne your owne answere to this last speech of mine. If you can iustifie the Pope in those things which I hauehave laid vntounto his charge: I will subscribe to all Popery. If you cannot: acknowlege his sumacie to be vnlawfull.

Iohn Rainoldes.

To this request, & offer, M. Hart sent me his answere in writing. Which I hauehave set downe (here following) word for word, and so hauehave proceeded on in our conference, as he desired me to doo.

If you speake vnfainedly, M. Rainoldes, as I trust you doo:The seuenth Diuisiō. I must louelove you the better for your plaine dealing in so weightie a matter. That you doo not see how the Pope may be iustified, (I speake not of his naughtie and corrupt maners, but of his supreme and soueraine authoritie, which is, as I take it, agreeable to the Scripture, and Christes owne appointment:) it séemeth to me that your errour herein procéedeth of a wrong perswasion, that he had not that authoritie by right, but vsurped it. Which is not so: as I hauehave alreadie shewed in part, and now will proue vntounto you farther. For it is so farre off from being vsurped authoritie, that if we will weigh thinges but with indifferencie and in equall balance, you shall well perceiue that both Emperours, and other Princes adioyning vntounto him, hauehave rather vsurped of his, then he of theirs. In so much that a good autour doth write that through the Popes negligent looking vntounto p. 396it, S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished. Yea, perhaps, it is much lesse now at this time, (how great or how lordly soeuer it seeme in your eye,) then it was in the very best times almost thirtéene hundred yeares since. For, to beginne with the donation of Constantine the great, he, (as Eugubinus writeth) resigned to S. Syluester Pope and to his successors the citie of Rome with all his Imperiall roabes, and ornaments, him selfe retyring to Constantinople, where he abode as in his Imperiall seate, as also many other Emperours after him for many yeares togither did, kéeping still either at Constantinople in the east, or els at Milan and Rauenna in the west. And this to be a certaine storie of the gift of Constantine to the Bishops of Rome, besides very many witnesses which here I could cite for proofe therof, as Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen, who was sorie to sée it, Photius Constantinopolitanus, no fauourer of the Pope neither and a Grecian borne, Nicephorus, and many moe besides, as you may reade in the Chronicles: S. Damasus, who liued about the same time, and saw Constantine himselfe, doth write of the said donation and gift of the Emperour. Which gift moreouer, to put it out of all doubt, was confirmed a hundred yeares after by the Emperour Iustinian, by Arithpert king of the Lombardes, by king Pipine of Fraunce, Charles the great, holy king Lewes, and lastly by Otho the great at a Councell holden at Rauenna, as your owne men in their Centuries doo graunt and confesse. For although they say withall that this encrease of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregories time; yet are they notably disproued by S. Gregorie himselfe, in whose reigne, (as it may probably be thought,) the Churches possessions were more then they be now at this present. And this appeereth by sundry of his epistles, where he maketh expresse mention of S. Peters patrimonie in Africke, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in Fraunce, in Italie, in Sicilia, in Sardinia, and in many other countries. Now then whereas for this which is the greatest part, so good proofes may be made: there is no doubt but for sundry other very great and large giftes of diuers Princes, many Nobles, men and women, which were bestowed vponupon that Sée, the Bishops thereof can shew very good euidence when nede shall require. Marry, if any of all the Bishops that euer were in that seat, flowing thus in wealth, abused the same to any euill p. 397purpose, or els their authoritie when they were become so mightie, in any of the pointes which are mentioned by you: I am so farre off from iustifying them therein, that rather I r…w to sée it and I condemne them therefore. But thereof wee shall hauehave occ…sion to treate more particularly in the chapters folowing. OnelyOnly this is it which I go about to proue and defend in them, that because of Christes promise, of building his Church vponupon that rocke; and prayer also that their faith should not faile, they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence. And thus much I am sure the very same autours, whose names here you bring in against me, do mainteine no lesse then I doo, howsoeuer they carpe and finde fault with the Popes naughtie maners. Wherefore to drawe to an ende, whether all that hath béene said hithertoo, or shall be said hereafter touching the practise of the Popes supremacie doo proue his supreme authoritie or not: I referre the iudgement thereof M. Rainoldes, to your selfe, and to eueryevery indifferent reader. Certes I hauehave endeuored somewhat to doo it, though nothing so wel, I graunt, as such a cause requireth. But as I said you shall sée it proued yet furthermore by the practise thereof which the Bishop of Rome hath alwaies vsed, bearing himselfe as supreme pastour of our soules next vnderunder Christ: which thing was neuer denyed him but graunted of all men without resistance. Let their spéeches, and déedes bee a iustifying of him: and let their behauiour generally towardes him bée an instruction for vsus to folow them in their well dooing.

Iohn Hart.

Rainoldes.

If you louelove me the better, M. Hart, for my plaine dealing in so weightie a matter, as you say you must: I would to God you would deale as plainely with me, that I might in like sort louelove you the better too. But neither doo you yéelde to that which I hauehave proued by euidence of tru…h: and although you cannot disproue my proofes of it, yet you seeke to shift them off by fraude and falsehood. For whereas I shewed that the Pope pretending discharge of his office in gouernment of the Church, hath gotten his temporall dominion from Emperours by tre…son, and rebellion; and practised vnlaw…ull power in thinges spirituall to the oppressing of Christendome; and therefore p. 398erred in office, yea, in the supremacie which he hath vsurped ouer both the states spirituall and temporall: you, for the first point of his dominion temporall, doo go about to cléere him by sophismes, and lyes; for the next of his tyrannie in spiritual things, you smooth it, as a lawfull autoritie abused; for the last of his erring in office, you abbridge it to iudgement and definitiue sentence; and wrappe his supremacie vp in generall wordes as allowed by all men, when in the particular pointes of the supremacie you can not iustifie it by any. aaAct. 26 24.Acts 26:24Festus the Roman thought Paul to bee madde: the madnes was in Festus him selfe, no… in Paul. You thinke that I erre of a wrong perswasion: the errour is your owne, not mine, M. Hart. The fautes of your dealing for the maintaining of your errour, I will set before you: if perhaps the Lorde will open your eyes, and vntye your tongue, that you may at length perceiue and confesse the Popes supremacie to be vnlawfull. To begin therefore with the first point wherein you séeke to cléere him from hauing vsurped his temporall dominion▪ you say, that if we weigh thinges with indifferencie, and in equall balance, I shall wel perceiue that both Emperours and other Princes adioyning vntounto him hauehave rather vsurped of his, then hee of theirs. Which, if you tooke not thinges at hucksters handes without all weighing of them, you would neuer say. For, that which I hauehave laide in one scale of the balance, is the manifest truth of recordes, & euidences, approued by the witnesse of writers verie credible, who note the times, the persons, the meanes, and all circumstances how the Pope vsurped. And that which you lay in the other scale, to ouerweigh mine, is partlie impertinent, and nothing to the purpose: partlie vntrue, and impudentlie forged. The weightiest parcel of it, is that which cometh formost, namely, that a good autour doth write, that S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished through the Popes negligent looking vntounto it. What is that good autour (M. Hart) who writeth so? Why doo you not name him? Is it because you feare that I should finde he maketh nought for you, if I knew him? or that you would put me to the paines of séeking him? I pray vse hereafter at least so much plainenesse, to name me the autours, on which your proofes are grounded: sith I not onelyonly name them, but quote their places also whereon I ground mine, that you p. 399may the better sift them, and iudge of them. The autour, who writeth that which you alleage, is **De corrupto ecclesiae statu: or (as in Gerson it is entitled,) De vitijs ministrorum ecclesiae.Nicolas Clemangis, a Doctour of Paris, that liued about a ninescore yeares since: in déed a good autour. Who lamenting the wretched and corrupt state of the Church in his time, declareth the Pope to hauehave béene the fi…ebrand of her calamities and disorders, in that, bbcap. 4.not contented with the fruites and profits of the Bishopricke of Rome and S. Peters patrimonie, though very great and royal, he laide his greedy handes on other mens flockes replenished with milke and wooll; and cccap. 5. & 7.vsurped the right of bestowing Bishoprickes, and liuings ecclesiasticall throughout all Christendom; and ddcap. 5.disanulled the lawfull elections of pastors by his reseruations, eecap. 6.prouisions, and ffcap. 7.aduowsons; and ggcap. 8.oppres…ed churches with first fruites of one yeare, of two yeares, of three yeares, yea sometimes of …oure yeares, with tithes, with exactions, with procurations, with spoiles of Prelates, and infinite other burdens; and hhcap. 9.ordeined collectors to seaze vponupon these taxes and tributes throughout al prouinces, with horrible abusing of suspensions, interditements, and excommunications, if any man refused to pay them; & vsed such marchandize with iicap. 10.suites in his kkcap. 11.Court, and rules of his Chauncerie, llcap. 12.that the house of God was made a denne of theeues; and raised his Cardinals, as complices of mmcap. 13.his pompe, from Clergie-men of lowest state to be the peeres of Princes; & enriched them with his dispensations nncap. 14.to hauehave & to hold offices & benefices, not two, or three, or ten, or twenty, but a hundred, or two hundred, yea sometimes foure hundred, or fiue hundred, or more, and those not small or leane ones, but euen the best and fattest; to be short, in that hee filled the sanctuarie of the Lord with dumme dogges & euil beastes, oocap. 19. & 20.euen from the highest Prelates ppcap. 7. & 24.to the basest hedge-priestes, through his vsurpations, qqcap. 29.exemptions, compositions, his rrcap. 42.Simonie, prosti…ution, and fornication committed with Princes of the earth; and all, ttcap. 3.4.5. & ….to maintaine the pride, lust, sscap. 18.and riot of his worldly state, which he hath lifted vp aboue kinges and Emperours.

Hart.

You like and lay open the wordes of Clemangis, as of a good autour, in that he reproueth abuses of the Popes. But what say you to that for which I alleaged him, uucap. ….that S. Peters p. 400patrimony is greatly diminished through the Popes negligent looking vntounto it?

Rainoldes.

I say that you were abused by Chronogr. lib. 3. i… Boni…acio tertio.Genebrard, on whose worde and credit you tooke that of Clemangis as making for this purpose, to which it cometh nothing nigh. For, yyHe wrote it in the yeare 1402. as it seemeth …y his wordes, De corrupto ecclesiae statu, cap. …6. after three and twentie yeares of the fiftie-yeares-schisme.it is litle aboue nine score yeares since that was writen by Clemangis. And what if the temporall dominion of the Popes (called S. Peters patrimony) were diminished then by the successours negligence? Might not the predecessours therefore hauehave vsurped it of y^e Emperours long before that time? How much more probably might I alleage Clemangis for proofe of the contrarie: in as much zzcap. 45.as he saith, that the church 11I…perij multa sibi …ura occupa…it.vsurped many things belonging of right to the Empire? But because I louelove not to build so strong conclusions vponupon so weake premisses: it sufficeth me that the good autour, on whom you build yours, dischargeth not the Popes from hauing got their temporall dominion by treason. For, it foloweth not that none of them were traitours eight hundred yeares ago, because before these ninescore yeares some were negligent: no more, then that the father was not an vsurer, because the sonne is a bankerout. Wherefore, the weightiest parcell of that which you lay in for the Popes patrimonie, is as light as a feather. The next, is somewhat lighter. For you say, that perhaps it is much lesser now at this time, then it was in the very best times almost thirteene hundred yeares since: perhaps, it is much lesser. Now, without perhaps, you presume much of some want in vsus, if you thinke that a dout…ull and vncertaine gesse may winne vsus from a certaine and vndouted truth.

Hart.

Nay, you mistake my meaning, if you take my [perhaps] so. For, that worde is vsed oftentimes of modestie, when men doo not dout of that which they say. Neither doo I of this: as you may perceiue by my proofes of it.

Rainoldes.

But aaGenebrard. Chronogr. lib. 3. in Bonif. tert.he, whose steps you treade in, vsed 22Fortasse.it of suttlety rather then of modesty: that if his proofes failed, yet they might finde fauour because they came in with perhaps. Which helpe you shall perceiue that the proofes also of your [perhaps] here doo stand in néede off, if you weigh them with indifferencie. The donation of Constantine beareth the bell amongst them. For he (you say) resigned to S. Siluester Pope p. 401and to his successours the citie of Rome, with all his Imperiall roabes and ornaments, retiring himselfe to Constantinople, where he abode as in his imperiall seate, as also many other Emperours after him for many yeares together did, keeping still either at Constantinople in the East, or els at Milan & Rauenna in the West. And how do you proue that Constantine did so? Forsooth Eugubinus writeth it, you say; & proofe is made of it by very many witnesses, as namely by Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen, who was sorie to see it; by Photius Constantinopolitanus, no fauourer of the the Pope neither, and a Grecian borne; by Nicephorus; yea by S. Damasus, who liued about the same time, and saw Constantine him selfe; yea by our owne men, who graunt in their Centuries that the said donation of Constantine was confirmed a hundred yeares after by the Emperour Iustinian, by Arithpert king of the Lombards, by king Pipine of France, Charles the great, holy king Lewes, and lastly by Otho the great at a Councell holden at Rauenna. So: your witnesses then for Constantines donation are Eugubinus, Ammianus, Photius, Nicephorus, Damasus, and our Centuries. Are these all? No. For you adde that there are many mo besides, as I may reade in the Chronicles. In the Chronicles? In what Chronicles? You meane in the Chronicles writen by Genebrard; whom in this whole point of the Popes temporall dominion you folow. Alas, M. Hart, giuegive not your selfe ouer so to be abused by that shamelesse man: who maketh no conscience of dealing most lewdly with all sortes of autours, to flatter those ambitious vsurpers of Rome, and vphold their vilanie.

Hart.

Nay, you are abused, or rather do abuse that worthie painefull man, who seeketh nothing but the maintenance of the catholike faith. But it yrketh you that he hath disclosed the lyes, staines, and fraudes of the Centurie-writers: against whom his Chronicles are specially writen.

Rainoldes.

Whether I abuse him, or he you, neither you onelyonly but all sortes of autours: the tryall is easie. You say that the donation of Constantine is proued by them whom you named, and many mo besides, as I may reade in the Chronicles. The many mo besides, whom I reade alleaged in your Chronicle-writer, are Zosimus, Nauclerus, S. Isidore, S. Ierom, Gratian, p. 402Iuo, Picernus, and the Iewes, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra. Do you rehearse his wordes, wherein he alleageth both these and the rest whom your selfe named: and as you shall finde him to deale in this point with all sortes of autours, so speake of him hereafter, and credit him in others.

Hart.

I doubt not but he dealeth as a good Catholike. bbGenebrard. Chronograph. lib. 3. in Sylu…stro primo.His words (touching Constantines donation, and the witnesses by whom he proueth it) are these, if you will hauehave them. Constantine the Emperour did giuegive Rome and all the Imperiall roabes and ornaments to S. Syluester Pope, and to his successors, as Eugubinus proueth manifestly in two bookes, and Photius the Greeke Patriarke in his Nomocanon, the eighth title, the first chapter.

Rainoldes.

Well. Eugubinus and Photius do proue it. But doo they proue that which Genebrard defendeth?

Hart.

What els? For he defendeth the donation of Constantine.

Rainoldes.

But defendeth he the greater donation of Constantine, or the lesser?

Hart.

The greater or the lesser? What meane you by that?

Rainoldes.

There are two donations of Constantine mentioned in the Canon law: the one in ccDistinct. 96. c. Constantinus.the decrees, wherein it is said that he gaue the Pope both his palace, and the citie of Rome, and all the prouinces, places, and cities of Italie, or the westerne countries: the other in ddc. Fundamen…a. de elect. in Sext.the decretals, wherein no more is said but that he gaue the citie of Rome. This I call the lesser donation of Constantine, which giueth Rome onelyonly: the other, the greater, which giueth Italie also with the countries of the west. And whether of them is it, that Genebrard defendeth?

Hart.

Whether of them, say you? Or what skilleth that?

Rainoldes.

It skylleth very much. For the lesser seemeth somewhat to discredit the report of the greater: as it is obserued by one of the best witnesses that Genebrard hath, I meane eeChronograph. volum. 2. generat. 11.Nauclerus. Who, hauing shewed, that Constantine left Italie and other kingdomes of the west to his sonnes by testament, and therefore it is likely that the decree which saith he gaue p. 403them to the Pope **Paleam esse, & nihil probare.is chaffe (as the lawiers call it) and proueth nothing: whereto (saith he) the decretall maketh not a little, which treating of Constantines donation speaketh onelyonly of the donation of the citie of Rome, making no mention of Italie and other prouinces. But whether this report of the lesser in the decretals discredit the greater in the decrees, or no: the greater is so brainlesse in the eyes of all men that hauehave sense and reason, that not your historians onelyonly doo nippe it, as ffChronicorum … lib. 4. cap. 3.Otho Frisingensis, ggDe vit. Pont. in Iohann. sept.and Platina, and hhSaxon. lib. 4. cap. 11. Metrop. lib. 2. cap. 1. & lib. 11. cap. 24.Krantzius; but also D…ctors and Diuines, as iiDe concord. cathol. lib. 3. cap. 2.Cardinall Cusanus, and kkIn pract. Cancellar. Apost.Hieronymus Paulus, and llDe falsó credita & ementita Constant. donat.Laurentius Valla, yea mmPapa Pius in dialogo. Citatur ab Hier. Paul… in Pract. Cancell. Apost.Pope Pius himselfe, hauehave writen purposely he would defend the lesser. For he saith that Constantine did giuegive Rome to Syluester: Rome, that is the citie, and not all the westerne Empire of Rome.

Hart.

His wordes indéede doo séeme so: and I thinke he meant not to defend the greater.

Rainoldes.

Thinke? Nay you may be sure that he meant not. For in the same place, vponupon the wordes that you rehearsed, I (saith he) hauehave alwaies denied this consequence: 11Aliqua sunt ficta & addita ad donationem Constantini.Somewhat is forged and added to the donation of Constantine; therfore al is forged. For it is certaine that Constantine gaue many thinges to the Church of Rome: but 22Alia, & mult… plu…a aliunde acc…ssis…e.more thinges a great deale hauehave come vntounto it other whence, either by the giftes of Princes and rich men, or by the testament of the godly, or by the purchasing of Popes, by exchange, and so forth, and the dispensation and prouidence of God. So that in Genebrards iudgement Pope Syluester and his successors hauehave gotten a great deale more by other meanes, then by Constantines donation. But they hauehave not gotten more then the greater donation of Constantine in the decrees doth giuegive them. For it doth giuegive them all the prouinces, places, and cities of Italie, and other countries of the west. In Genebrards iudgement therefore the greater donation of Constantine is forged: and that which he defendeth must be the lesser onelyonly.

Hart.

The lesser onelyonly be it. What gather you thereoff?

Rainoldes.

I gather that Genebrard dealeth like himselfe, when he saith that Constantines donation is proued by p. 404Photius the Greeke Patriarke, and Eugubinus in two bookes. For Eugubinus writeth in defense of the greater donation of Constantine: auouching nnAugusti…. Steuch. …ugubin. contr. Laurent. Vallam de …alsa donatione Constant. lib. 1.that he gaue, not the citie of Rome alone vntounto the Pope, no nor the countrie of Italie, but the whole West, euen the Westerne Empire; in so much that oolib. 2.he nameth particularly the kingdomes of England, of Fraunce, of Spaine, of Aragon, of Portugall, of Denmarke, of Norway, Swethland, Boheme, Hungarie, Dacia, Rustia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Sardinia, and Corsica, and saith that they are all subiect to the Pope, by right of that donation. As for the Patriarke Photius, he speaketh not a word of any donation. That which Genebrard meaneth is in one ppTheodor. Balsamon in Nomocan. Phot. u…. 8. cap. 1.Balsamon commenting on Photius: and it is the same that Eugubinus writeth for. What thinke you now of him, who saith that Eugubinus and Photius the Greeke Patriarke do manifestly proue that donation to be true, which himselfe confesseth to be false and forged?

Hart.

But the next writer whom he alleageth, namely Zosimus, is fitter for his purpose: as speaking of the lesser donation precisely. For qqZosim. histor. lib. 2.Constantine (saith he) departed out of Rome, and remoued thence the maiestie of the Empire▪ to Constantinople, because he knewe himselfe to be misliked of the Romans for altering of religion.

Rainoldes.

What? Doth this proue that Constantine gaue the citie of Rome vntounto the Pope, because he departed from Rome to Constantinople?

Hart.

As Genebrard concludeth of it. For 33Constantinus cessit Roma. Cessit, cui… Non …natui, non populo. Pontifici igitur.he departed: to whom? Not to the Senate, not to the people: for that hath no man writen. Neither did the Senate or people euer claime it. To the Pope therefore: who sith that time possesseth and keepeth it as his owne; hath olde recordes, and euidences, and reuenues of it.

Rainoldes.

The wit of a Sophister. As if a man should say: king Henrie departed from the citie of London vntounto Windsore castle, and remoued the Court thither. He departed: to whom? Not to the Aldermen, not to the Citizens: for no man saith so. Neither did the Aldermen or Citizens euer claime it. To the Bishop therefore: who sith that time possesseth and kéepeth it as his owne; hath old recordes, and euidences, and reuenues of it.

p. 405Hart.

Nay, that is a lye, that the Bishop of London possesseth the citie as his own sith that time.

Rainoldes.

Euen so is the other. For the Emperours possessed Rome foure hundred yeares after the time that Constantine departed to Constantinople: as your own rrDe occidentali imperio: & regno Italiae.Sigonius sheweth in his stories.

Hart.

But king Henrie gouerned still the citie of London by the Lord Mayor: as Princes hauehave béene wont to doo.

Rainoldes.

So the Emperours gouerned too the citie of Rome ssDe officio praefe… vibi. Dig. & Cod. lib. 1. Corn. Tacit. Annal. lib. 6. Ammian. Marcellin. lib. 14. Notitia prouinciar. Imperii Rom.by a Lord Deputie. Yea Genebrard might easily hauehave found in his ttHistor. lib. 6. de Attalo praefecto vrbis.Zosimus y^e one of those Deputies tooke vponupon him to be Emperour. If he could shew by Zosimus that a Pope had done so: what a proofe were that of Constantines donation?

Hart.

The Popes enioyed not a while the full power: yet had they right vntounto it. Howbeit Ammianus Marcellinus sheweth they had the power too: as Genebrard declareth after. But first he confirmeth their right out of S. Damasus.

Rainoldes.

Out of Damasus? How?

Hart.

S. Damasus, who saw Constantine, hath writen of that donation: as euen the Centurie-writers affirme in the seuenth chapter of the fourth Centurie.

Rainoldes.

Two lyes, with one breath. For neither hath Damasus writen of it: nor doo the Centurie-writers affirme that he hath. Nay they affirme the contrarie. For, in uuCentur. 4. cap. 7. tit. de Primatu.the very place that Genebrard alleageth, they say, that neither historians hauehave made mention of it, such as are Eusebius, Eutropius, Rufinus, Socrates, Theodoret, Euagrius, Paulus▪ Diaconus, Beda, Orosius, Zonaras, Nicephorus, and the like: nor they who wrote the liues of Emperours, or of Popes, as Ierom and Damasus, though yet he speaketh somewhat of thinges giuen by Constantine: nor other famous Doctors whose monuments are extant, as Athanasius, Basil, Ambrose, Optatus, Gregorie Nyssen, Gregorie Nazianzene, Austin, and Chrysostome: nor the Popes themselues when they were to proue their supremacie in Councels did speake a word of that donation, which they would then hauehave cast forth, as shipmen do the sacred ancre in great perill.

Hart.

The wordes are not so flatt and perfite in the Latin, as p. 406you doo english them. For, vponupon the name of Damasus, it foloweth: qui etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit, tamen alij insignes eccl…siarum doctores-

Rainoldes.

But if you reade it so: the clause ensuing is vnperfit, and hath no sense at all. A very manifest token that somewhat is a misse, through either the writers, or printers, or correctours faute. And that is [qui] mistaken (as I gesse) for [neque,] and put out of his place: where it ought to folow vponupon the name of Damasus, etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit tamen; neque alij insignes ecclesiarum doctores- But howsoeuer the words are to be amended: the sense must néedes be as I saide touching Damasus. For the sentence is plaine so farre, that neither Ierom nor Damasus hauehave mentioned that donation of Constantine: as plaine, as that which foloweth, that it is not mentioned by other famous Doctors neither. And who can imagin that the Centurie-writers should say that Damasus wrote of it: when it is so cléere that he wrote not, that your xxPractica Cancellar. Apost.Hieronymus Paulus, & Cusanus do bring his autoritie for a speciall reason against the donation.yyDe concord. cathol. lib. 3. cap. 2. The right therefore of it is not proued by Damasus. Now, is the possession proued any better out of Ammianus?

Hart.

Ammianus Marcellinus, an heathen, doth closely signifie some such thing, while he complaineth and grudgeth at the Popes wealth and power: in the seuen and twentieth booke of his story.

Rainoldes.

Ammianus, (saith Genebrard) doth closely signifie some such thing. In déede some such thing: but so farre from that thing, that better nothing were said of it. For thus saith Ammianus Marcellinus, an heathen, of Damasus suing to be Pope. Damasus and Vr…icinus burning with immoderate ambition of getting the Bishopricke of Rome, did fall to very sharpe bickrings through partes taken: in so much that the matter grew betweene them to the shedding of blood and to man-slaughter. Which tumult Viuentius (who was the Lord Deputie) being neither able to pacify, nor to redresse, was forced through their outrage to withdraw himselfe out of the citie into the suburbes: and Damasus through the valiant behauiour of his faction got the conquest in the fray. And it is certaine that in the Church of p. 407Sicininus (where Christians make their assemblie) there were found 11Centum triginta septem cadauera peremptorum.a hundred thirtie and seuen carkasses of men slaine in one day: and the people furiously bent a great while, was afterwarde hardly asswaged. Neither do I deny, considering the brauerie and pompe vsed in Rome, but they who aspire thereto should striue with might & maine to obteine it: sith when they hauehave gotten it, they shall bee at such ease, enriched with 22Oblationibus matronarum.the giftes and offerings of matrones, and caried abroad in wagons, and going in gay apparell, and folowing so riotous fare, that their bankets are more then princely: who might in deed be happy if they would contemne the statelinesse of the citie, (which cloake they vse for their vices,) and would liue as certaine Bishops doo in prouinces: whom great moderation in vse of meat and drinke, and meanenes…e of apparell, and modestie of countenance, commend, as pure, and shamefast, to God and to the godly. Behold, this is the wealth and power of the Pope which Ammianus Marcellinus complayneth off and grudgeth at. Some such thing it is as Constantine donation: but it is not it. For the wealth, is the pompe and brauery that they maintained by the offrings of matrones. The power, is a faction of cutters, so desperate, that when they slew aboue a hundred in a fray, the Lord Deputie could not helpe it. But the verie naming of the Lord Deputie (sent thither by y^e Emperour) should hauehave taught Genebrard that the Emperour kept the citie still as his owne, and was the soueraine Lorde of it. Wherefore that which he findeth in Ammianus Marcellinus touching the Popes wealth and power, is in respect of wealth, the donation of matrones; in respect of power, the donation of cutters; but in respect of neither the donation of Constantine.

Hart.

Nay, in that (I thinke) you are deceiued greatly, that you say the Emperour kept still the citie as his owne because he sent a Deputie thither. For that Deputie or Lieutenant was there to kéepe the citie, not for the Emperours vse, but for his safegarde onelyonly.

Rainoldes.

Not for his vse, but for his safegard?

Hart.

I: least the Pope growing dayly mightier by reason of wealth, and bordering vponupon him, should encroch on somewhat of his vponupon occasion. As Princes now adayes are wont to p. 408hauehave their Deputies and Lieutenants resident in cities néere their territories for their owne safegard, and not to keepe the cities as theirs, which are not theirs.

Rainoldes.

Embassadours or Agents perhaps they may hauehave in realmes or cities néere them. But that the French king should hauehave a Lieutenant or Deputie in London, or that y^e Quéene of Englands Deputy in Ireland should kéepe it not for her vse, but for her safegard onelyonly: Princes now a dayes (I hope) vse not that; sure the Emperours did not. For they had their Lieutenants in y^e citie of Rome, not as Agents, but as Regents; and their Lieutenants kept it both to their safegard, and their vse: as zzEpistolar. lib. 10. epist. 15.16.17.27.30.34. & caeteris ad Valentin. Theodol. & Arcad. Impp.Symmachus, a famous Lieutenant of the citie, and aaValentinianus & Theodosius. In Cod. Theodosian. passim.the Emperours who deputed him, doo manifestly shew. Yea, euen bbHistor lib. 27.Ammianus him selfe (to go no further) doth import as much in the verie place alleaged by Genebrard: where both the Lieutenant is called 11Vrbis moderator.the ruler of the citie, and his 22Cuius administratio.gouernment is namely noted. So farre off was he from dreaming any such thing as you doo imagin of Constantines donation.

Hart.

It is no great matter, though Ammianus Marcellinus, a heathen, doo not proue it.

Rainoldes.

Not so great, as that Gilbert Genebrard, a Christian, doth falsly charge a heathen with the proofe of it. But will you go forward to the rest of his witnesses?

Hart.

Iustinian the Emperour 11Centum póst annis illam donationem confirmauit.confirmed that donation a hundred yeares after: and then Arithpert the king of the Lombards, P…pine, Charles the great, Lewes the godly, and last of all Otho the great in a publike councell of Rauenna, as the Centurie-writers also do report, 22Vt etiam Centuriatores totidem verbis referunt.vsing these very wordes. Centur. 10. chapt. 10. pag. 538. in Leo the eighth and Iohn his successour: perhaps out of that Authentike (as they call it) or constitution of Iustinian, 33Vt Ecclesia Rom. centum annorum gaudeat praescriptione.That the Church of Rome should enioy the prescription of a hundred yeares.

Rainoldes.

A proofe of some weight, if all this be true that the Centurie-writers report, yea and report it vsing these verie wordes, that Iustinian the Emperour confirmed that donation a hundred yeares after, and Arithpert, Pipine, Charles, Lewes, and Otho. But what if these be not the verie wordes in which the Centurie-writers doo report it? What if the Centurie-writers p. 409doo not report it at all? As in déed they doo not. For these are ccCentur. 10. cap. 10. pag. 538their wordes: Pope Leo the eighth to shew his thankfullnes to the Emperour (by whom hee had the Popedom) restored to the Empire the things which either Constantine or Charles gaue vntounto the Church, or Iustinian confirmed before him, or Arithpert the Lombard king bestowed on it. Now we hauehave set doune before out of Krantzius in the tenth chapter of the fourth booke of his storie of Saxonie the copie of the letters by which Leo restored them. Thus farre the Centurie-writers. Wherein, first, they speake not of Constantines donation either the greater or the lesser, but in generall onelyonly of thinges that he gaue. Which might be other thinges, and not the citie of Rome. Secondly, they say not, [the thinges which he gaue, and Charles did confirme,] but [the thinges which either he or Charles gaue:] that it might be Charles donation, and not his, for any thing that they say. Thirdly, **Quaevel Constantinus donauit, aut Carolus dedit ecclesiae.their very wordes are the wordes of Krantzius, whom they alleage and ddKrantz. Saxon. lib. 4. cap. 10.quote: and Krantzius doth speake them by way of a iest. For neither is Constantine named in the letters in which he saith that thankfulnes is shewed by Pope Leo: and eecap. 11.vponupon the letters he frameth a reproofe of Constantines donation. So that, to proue it by those wordes of Krantzius, is, as if the Pharisees should proue their traditions by that spéech of Christ: ffMark. 7.….Mark 7Wel doo ye reiect the commandements of God, that ye may obserue your owne tradition. Fourthly, the Centurie-writers doo not as much as mention either Lewes, or Pipine; neither here, nor ggIn Iohanne suceessore Leonis octaui.after where they mention Otho. Finally, not one of all that are mentioned is reported by them to hauehave confirmed that donation. No not Iustinian: of whom the shew is greatest as Genebrard doth cite their wordes, that he confirmed it after a hundred yeares.

Hart.

Yet their owne wordes are that Iustinian confirmed thinges vntounto the church.

Rainoldes.

And so Iustinian did. For Nouell. consti… 9. vt ecclesia Romana centū annorum gaudeat praescriptione.his constitution which Genebrard alleageth out of his Authentikes, that the Church of Rome should enioy the prescription of a hundred yeares, hath this force, that whereas thirtie yeares prescription did hold against the landes and possessions of others in actions and suites of law, no lesse then a hundred should hold against the landes and p. 410possessions of others in actions and suites of law: no lesse then a hundred should holde against the landes and possessions of the Church. Though the Centurie-writers meant by [confirming] the assuring of those thinges that any way came from Iustinian: as appéereth by iiEpistola Leonis Papae apud Krantzium Saxon. lib. 4. cap. 10.the letters which they referre them selues vntounto. But Genebrard doth take the aduantage of 11Confirmauit.the word, and helpeth it with adding [**Centum póst annis. a hundred yeares after,] which fitteth some what roundly the time that Iustinian raigned after Constantine: to the intent, that the terme of a hundred yeares in Iustinians constitution might be thought to hauehave respect to Constantines donation. In the which dealing he doth notorious iniurie not onelyonly to them, but to Iustinian also. To Iustinian, by laying on him a lewde sclaunder, that he did confirme, yea confirme by law, a surmised donation deuised against all law. To them, by putting wordes of falsehood in their mouth; nor making them onelyonly false witnesses, but also foolish; as if they had thought a thing to be confirmed by that constitution, whereof the constitution hath no word at all. And as it were to fill vp the measure of his iniquitie, he addeth that 22Vt etiam Cen…uriatores totidem verbis …eferunt.they report it vsing those very wordes: to perswade the credulous thereby (as hee hath you) that Constantines donation cannot be doubted of ▪ sith it was confirmed by the Emperour Iustinian a hundred yeares after, as our owne men in their Centuries doo graunt.

Hart.

Perhaps there is some other place in Iustinian, that maketh proofe of it. For while I perused the Tables of that booke of the Authentikes which was lent me to serch out this in: I was thereby directed to a place in Iustinian where Constantines donation is proued most plainely: to weete, in gloss. sing. secundum Bald: in l. 2. §. Cum vrbem. ff. de offic. praefect. vrbis.

Rainoldes.

It is not plainely proued there, but barely said; and said, not in the text, but in the glose onelyonly; nor in y^e glose vponupon Iustinian, but the Digests; and that without all ground either of any autour of the Digests, or of Iustinian.

Hart.

But in the glose vponupon Iustinian himselfe, euen in the Authentikes, there is an other place where the same question is handled pro and con: and there although he say that Constantine could make no such donation de iure, yet he denyeth not but that he made it de facto.

Rainoldes.

Yet he denyeth not: and **Licet solutio facti ad nos non pertineat, soluimus quod de …ure non valuit … donatio.he affirmeth not; but p. 411leaueth it as he found it. Why do you trifle so with the glose-writer? Who though hee had affirmed the donation of Constantine: doth that proue the point auouched by Genebrard, that Iustinian confirmed it? If I had thought that you would make such account of the wordes of lawiers: I could hauehave alleaged men skilfuller of antiquities, then all the glose-writers, against that tale of Constantine. For not onelyonly such as kkCommentar. in antiqua … dict. & Senatusconsulta. Franciae. contra abusus Paparum.Carolus Molinaeus, whom you may perhaps suspect for his religion, do write against it, and discredite it: but also that worthy and most learned lawier, llParergôn iuris. lib. 7. cap. 19.Andreas Alciatus, disproueth it by Eusebius, Theodoret, Cassiodore, Ammianus Marcellinus, and the consent of all historians; and mmDesension. in Molinaeum pro Pont. Max.Remundus Rufus (in his defense of the Pope against Molinaeus, which nnDe visib. Monar. Eccles. lib. 7.Sanders prayseth greatly) doth allow the same that Alciatus writeth of it. But whatsoeuer lawiers thinke of the donation, either for the fact, or for the right of it: you sée that it is not confirmed by Iustinian, as you are borne in hand.

Hart.

Yes, I make no doubt but Genebrard is able to bring more for him selfe herein then I hauehave seene, or can finde in Iustinian.

Rainoldes.

Neither make I doubt but, if he could hauehave brought more, his **Diuturno decem annorum studio. Genebrard. praefat. Chronogr. ad Pontacum.ten-yeares studie spent vponupon his Chronicles would hauehave interlaced it. Inthe meane season, whether he bée able to bring more or no: you cannot deny but he hath alleaged Iustinian vntruely, for that which he hath brought.

Hart.

But the rest of the writers whom he doth alleage, no doubt he doth alleage them truely; S. Gregorie, S. Isidore, Nauclerus, Photius, Nicephorus, S. Ierom, Iuo, Gratian, Picernus, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra.

Rainoldes.

He doth alleage them truely, I graunt, the most of them. But doo they proue the point for which he doth alleage them?

Hart.

Yea, and that directly: as by his wordes you shall perceiue. S. Gregorie about the sixe hundreth yeare of Christ doth shew in his epistles that the Church had ample landes and possessions, farre and wide through the west. At the which time S. Isidore in his storie (as Nauclerus citeth in the eleuenth age of his Chronicles) Constantine, saith he, did yeelde the citie to the Pope, and the imperiall ornaments, that is to say, the crown, p. 412and the white palfrey on the which he rode. Altogither as Photius of Constantinople, though otherwise an enimie of the See of Rome, auoucheth in his Nomocanon about the yeare eight hundred and sixtie.

Rainoldes.

Nay: no more of Photius. For it is not he (as I hauehave shewed) who saith it, but Balsamon who commenteth on him. And Balsamon is later by thrée hundred yeares.

Hart.

Yet he was a Grecian too, and an enimie of the Sée of Rome: and therefore not likely to vouch it, if it were not true.

Rainoldes.

But Genebrard hath graunted that to be false which he voucheth. For he saith that Constantine did giuegive to Pope Syluester, the prouinces, and places, and fortresses of al Italie, or of the westerne countries, and not the citie of Rome onelyonly. Neither doth he vouch this in respect of Rome but of Constantinople: which being to enioy the priuileges of Rome ooIn nomoca…. …ot. tit. 8. cap. 1.by a law y^• Photius rehearseth in his Nomocanon, Now if you will know the priuileges of Rome (saith Balsamon) they are enrolled in the decree of Constantines donation made to Pope Syluester. So that it was for louelove to the Patriarkes Sée of Constantinople, not to the Popes of Rome, that hee auoucheth it: that as Rome might therby claime al the West, so Constantinople might get all the East. Wherefore, that circumstance, that Balsamon was an enimie of the See of Rome, doth nothing helpe the credit of Constantines donation. Neither doth S. Isidore make much more for it, as ppChronogr. volum. 2. generat. 11.Nauclerus citeth him. For, as he citeth him, he giueth him a touch withall to ouerthrow him. There is (saith Nauclerus) no mention of Constantines donation in any autours, but in the booke of decrees: and the Archbishop of Florence, Antoninus, affirmeth in his chronicles, that in ancient bookes of the Decreees it is not neither. Which I greatly maruaile at, sith Isidore reporteth plainely in his storie, that Constantine did yeeld the citie of Rome vntounto the Pope, and all the imperiall ornaments, that is to say, the crowne, the apparell, and the white palfrey to ride vponupon. Nauclerus therefore citeth Isidore as saying it: but so, as though he thought all were not well in Isidore, sith there is no mention of it in any autours of credit or antiquitie. I shewed you qqChap. …. Diuis. 2.before how the writings of the auncient Fathers hauehave beene corrupted to countenance the Popes p. 413power. The storie of Isidore might be wrought in like sort to countenance the Popes pompe, his triple crowne, his robes imperiall, his **Equi albi phaleris auteis cope…tisque de cremosino ornati. Sacr. ceremon. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. 2.horses of estate. Which to hauehave beene so, it is the more likely, because it is testified by rrIllyricus, Wigandus, Index & Faber Histor. ecclesiast. Magdeb. Centur. …. cap. 7.men who had helpes to se…ch and sée such auncient euidences, that in olde copies of Isidore that is not found. And perhaps if that storie of Isidore were printed, that we might hauehave the sight of it: it were no hard matter to finde s…me tokens there of forgerie. At the least, it séemeth that Genebrard himselfe suspected some weakenes in that point of Isidore: and therefore neither citeth him but as out of Nauclerus, and addeth that he wrote at the time that Gregorie did speake much of the Churches landes. For, if I mistake not the policie of Genebrard, he mentioneth the ample landes and possessions which the church had farre and wide through the west in the time of Gregorie: to the intent that men might conceiue thereof that the citie of Rome was part of those lands, sith Isidore, who wrote at the same time, reporteth that it was giuen to the Pope. But this obseruation which he made to strēghthen his autours report, doth most of all weaken it. For neither doth Gregorie name the citie of Rome as part of those landes which in his epistles he sheweth that the church had through the west:

Hart.

But he doth, by your leaue. For, in the fifth booke, and the twelfth epistle, we make (saith hee) Montanus, and Thomas, 11Liberos & ciues Romanos efficimas.free-men, and citizens of Rome. Whereby he declareth that **Ch…onogr. lib. 3. in. Bonifac. tert.Rome was of the Popes dominion and right, as Genebrard concludeth of it.

Rainoldes.

Genebrard obiecteth ignorance of antiquitie to the Centurie-writers. **Romam Pontificii …uisse …uris.But in bringing this to conuince their ignorance, hée bewrayeth his owne. For Thomas, and Montanus whom Gregorie made free-men and citizens of Rome, were his 22Seruitutis iugo. et▪ Famulos Ecclesiae.slaues, or bondmen. Now, amongst the Romans any man might lawfully make his bond men, frée: and whom he made free, them he made citizens; as by Dionys. Halica…n…ss. Antiquitat. Romanar. lib. 4.their auncient law, so by uuCod. de Lat. libert. tollend.Iustinians, who liued before Gregories time, and xxInstitutionu… lib. 1. tit. 5. Libertinorum.reuiued it. Wherefore the enfranchising of Thomas and Montanus proueth not that Rome was of the Popes dominion more the… of any other Romans. And so the circumstance of Gregories time and testimonie, which Genebrard would strengthen his tale p. 414with, doth weaken it. For neither is the citie of Rome named by Gregorie amongst the Churches landes, as I was about to say: and at the verie time, that Gregorie was Pope, the Emperours held the citie, & gouerned it (as they were wont) by a Germanus praefectus vrbis. Iohan. Diacon. in vit. Gregor. lib. 1. cap. 40.Lord Deputie. Then hetherto his witnesses of Constantines donation doo bring it small comfort. Doo the rest say more for it?

Hart.

Nicephorus saith in the seuenth booke, the nine and fourtieth chapter, Constantine did consecrate and giuegive vntounto Christ the palace of Lateran. Which thing S. Ierom also had touched before him in an epistle to Oceanus: and experience proueth it euen till this day while that is the chiefe See of the Bishop of Rome.

Rainoldes.

I perceiue it was either a foxe or a ferne-bush that Genebrard espyed. He thought he had séene the whole citie of Rome giuen by Constantine to the Pope: and now hee hath found that Constantine did turne his palace into a church that the Pope might teach there, and Christians come together, to pray and serue God. For this is all that yy…pist. 30. ad Oceanum.Ierom and zzHistor. ecclesiast. lib. 7. c. 49.Nicephorus say.

Hart.

But Nicephorus saith farther in the six and fortieth chapter, that Constantine endowed all the churches of the world, and Bishoprikes, out of his treasurie, according to the state and worthinesse of them. Therefore he endowed much more the church of Rome then of Eugubium, and so forth.

Rainoldes.

Nicephorus saith that Constantine did giuegive through all prouinces some part of the publike reuenues to the churches: but not, that he did giuegive according to the state and worthines of ech of them. That Genebrard doth adde to kéepe his hands in vre▪ Howbeit if Nicephorus had said, that he endowed them according to their state and worthines, and therefore more the Church of Rome then of Eugubium: yet is not the donation proued by Nicephorus.

Hart.

But reade him also in the eighth booke, the third and fourth chapters; & in the tenth booke, the fifth chapter.

Rainoldes.

And there shall you finde as much as in the former.

Hart.

Iuo in his Pannomia, about the yeare of Christ eleuen hundred and ten, doth …ite certaine thinges out of the p. 415charter of the priuilege of Constantines donation. Gratian about the yeare eleuen hundred and fiftie; Bartolomaeus Picernus, and many mo, doo bring foorth either all, or partes of it.

Rainoldes.

Picernus? What an autour is he to proue it? A hungrie companion, who liued the last day: and, to curry fauour with Iulius the Pope, hee translated into Latin a litle Gréeke booke containing Constantines donation, which hee found, where? aaBartolom. Picern. in praefat. donat. Constant. ad Iulium secundum Po…t. Max.in the Popes librarie. Gratian is more ancient: and the whole charter of the donation is in bbDistinct. 96. c. Constantinus.him. But neither is it extant in old copies of Gratian, as ccAntoninus histor. part. 1. tit. 8. cap. 2. Illyricus in tes…ibus veritatis. tit. Donatio Constantini.they doo witnesse who hauehave seene them: neither are we sure by either old or new in which it is extant, that Gratian did put it in. For in ech sort of them, both writen, and printed, it is entitled [palea] that is to say, chaffe: which note (as ddAntonius Contius. c. cum enixa. Dist. 5. in Annotat.a learned and famous lawier thinketh) is set to those chapters that were not first inserted into the booke by Gratian, but added after in the margent by Gratians interpreters, as any of them thought good, and in the best and auncientest copies they are omitted wholy for the most part. Now, if in Gratian it crept out of the margent thus into the text: much more is it likely that eePannom. lib. 4. cap. 1. de priuilegijs Constantini Imperatoris concessis Syluestro Papae.Iuo caught it so too. For if it had béene of auncient time in Iuo when Gratian compiled the booke of decrees: it is not to be thought that Gratian, a man who forgeth autours often and counterfeiteth priuileges for lesse aduantage of the Pope, would hauehave left him out such a Princely priuilege, if he had found it in an autour.

Hart.

It is an easie matter with shiftes and surmises to discredit autours, as you doo Picernus, Gratian, and Iuo. Or, if it be true that Iuo and Gratian did not themselues record it: yet there is no cause why the Greeke copy translated into Latin by Picernus should be discredited because it was found in the Popes librarie. For there are many rare bookes in the Popes librarie, that are not els where to be found.

Rainoldes.

But the Greeke text of Constantines donation was els where to be found. For it is in Balsamon translated into Latin also by Gentian Heruet. And this doth discredit the matter so much more: because the Latin charter (or chaffe) that is in Gratian doth differ from the Greeke in many thinges. Besides that, Picernus hath shewed a speciall fauour to the Pope in p. 416it: vnlesse the Greeke which hee found in the Popes librarie were somewhat better fyled then that which Heruet found in Balsamon ▪ For wherein Gratians Latin it is, that the Emperour gaue vntounto the Pope the places, cities, and prouinces Italiae siue occi …a…alium …egionum.of Italie, or of the westerne countries; as it is in Italiae seu occ…dent…lium.Heruet too: Picernus hath mended it, and made it, 33Italiae & occi…entalium.of Italie, and of the westerne countries. Which was a small token of no small good will that Picernus shewed towarde the Pope against Declamat. de … c…ed. & e…ent donat. Constant.Valla: who noted that word [or] abused for [and,] as vnlikely that the Emperour or the Emperours officers should write so in a charter of so great importance, and in so large a deed of gift. Though this is the least of many coniectures that Valla maketh by the style to proue corruption in the déed. Which all, for the most part, Picernus hath washed away by his translation. But if you thinke that th…se thinges which I speake of Gratian, or Iuo, or Picernus, are shiftes and surmises: then I pray remember that their textes speake …or the greater donation, which Genebrard confesseth himselfe to be forged. And therefore Picernus, Iuo, and Gratian are cited to no purpose, by him, who defendeth not the greater but the lesser donation of Constantine.

Hart.

Yet, what say you then to his last witnesses, who speake directly for the lesser? They are the Iuish writers, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra. For, Rabbi Abraham, in Zikron Dibre Romi, saith that Constantine hauing built Constantinople, went out of Rome, and gaue it to the Priestes of the Idumeans (so they call Christians) to this day. And Aben Ezra vponupon the eleuenth chapter of Daniel, on these wordes, And he shall care for no God: the meaning is (saith he) that Constantine did beautifie the place of Rome which was his seate, and l…ft it to the iniquitie (so they speake wickedly of the holy Apostles) which is called Peter.

Rainoldes.

Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra, did liue about the same time that Gratian did, or rather somewat since; when the Pope had gotten fully from the Emperour the soueraintie in Rome. They looked to the state of their owne times; and saw that the citie, which Constantine had, was now possessed by the Pope. Wherefore sith the bruit of Constantines donation was set abroch then: no maruell if they tasted of it: chiefly sith they had so litle skill in stories.

Hart.

Great skill, Rabbi Abraham. For hee wrote a Chronicle p. 417which Genebrard hath translated out of Hebrue in…o Latin, entitled Cabbala historica.

Rainoldes.

Whrein he bewrayeth the greatnes of his skill. For the Rabbi chronicleth gg…there, that our sauiour (Iesus of Nazareth, as he calleth him) was not borne in the dayes of Augustus the Emperour, and Herode king of Iury, but a…ore that time aboue a hundred yeares. And therevpon h…e cha… geth the stories of other nations with errour, for writing so of Christes age: but we (saith he) hauehave **foreignthe true tradition & storie out of Misna and Talmud, whose autours hauehave not changed any whit of thinges. Wherefore, if Rabbi Abraham were no better séene in the storie of the Iewes, in that point, whereof he might hauehave learned the truth by their owne hhAntiquita…. Iu…aicar. lib. 13 cap. 6.…osephus: you may giuegive him leaue to be ouerseene in the Roman stories. As for Aben Ezra, his wordes may be taken in a t…ue meaning, that Rome by the occasion that Constantine le…t it, came afterwarde in processe of time to the iniquitie which is called Peter, that is, to the Pope. For in déed the Emperours abiding at Constantinople made it easier for the Popes to practise those treasons which g…t them Rome at last. But admit he meant that Constantine ga… Rome to the iniquitie called Peter. Will Genebrard confesse th… the Pope (the Peter of Rome) is an iniquitie, because that Aben Ezra saith so?

Hart.

No. For he saith that of a Iewish stomacke.

Rainoldes.

And he saith the other of a Romish errour. Wherfore if Genebrard refuse his owne witnesse in that he speaketh of affection: I hauehave greater reason to except against him in that he misseth through ouersight. And thus you may sée how well the donation of Constantine is proued by the witnesses alleaged either of your selfe, or of your Chronicle-writer. Wherein his abusing of all sortes of autors, & thereby of you, will be the more euident, if it bee compared with the dealing of a Bishop that matcheth him in Poperie, but passeth him in modestie, I meane of iiLoco…. Theolog. lib. 11. c. 5.Melchior Canus. Who alleageth Eusebius, Rufinus, Theodoret, Socrates, Sozomen, Eutropius, Victor, Ammianus Marcellinus, and, in a word, 11Omnes historici.all historians, with 22Caeteri probae fidei autores.other approued autours, to shew that the donation of Constantine is forged: euen the same donation, by which the kkc. Fundamenta. de elect. in Sext.Popes claime the temporal dominion of the citie of Rome, and you with your p. 418Chronicles doo sooth their falshood in it. Beside that, if Constantine had made this pretensed donation in déed: yet cometh it short of that for proofe whereof you cite it, to wéet, that the temporall dominion of the Popes is much lesse now, then it was almost thirteene hundred yeares since. For, the citie of Rome, which in this donation is saide to hauehave béene giuen them, is but a litle corner of their dominion now.

Hart.

But if you ioyne thereto that which I added of S. Peters patrimonie belonging vntounto them within two or thrée hundred yeares after Constantine: it cometh home to the proofe of that which I purposed; at least, to the disproofe of that which your men auouch in their Centuries. For although they say that this encrease of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregories time: yet are they notably disproued by S. Gregorie himselfe, in whose reigne, (as it may probably be thought,) the Churches possessions were more then they bée now at this present. And this appeareth by sundrie of his epistles, where hee maketh expresse mention of S. Peters patrimonie in Africke, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in Fraunce, in Italie, in Sicilia, in Sardinia, and in many other countries.

Rainoldes.

You hauehave heard, M. Hart, of sir Thomas More: and perhaps you hauehave read the historie writen by him of king Richard the third.

Hart.

A worthie worke of a worthieman. Who, if he had gone through in like sorte with all our English historie, we might compare with Greekes or Romans. But what of that historie?

Rainoldes.

In it he reporteth, that Richard was a tyrant, and did vsurpe the regall dignitie vponupon him selfe, defrauding Prince Edward whose it was by right. Doth sir Thomas More say true in this of Richard, or doth he misreport him?

Hart.

True, out of question: as it is apparant by all our historians, who consent therein.

Rainoldes.

Yet there is a writer who saith that king Richard did not vsurpe the crowne. And for proofe thereof, hee bringeth forth sundrie old recordes and euidences of the house of Yorke: by which it is shewed that Richard had landes in Calice, in Canterburie, in Kent, in Northumberland, in Ireland, in England, in Garnsey and in Iersey, before Prince Edwardes time wherein …ir Thomas More reporteth him to hauehave vsurped.

p. 419Hart.

He might hauehave those landes, while he was Duke of Glocester, and not king of England. Wherefore, the writer who bringeth this to proue that he vsurped not the crowne, disproueth not the historie of Sir Thomas More, but bewrayeth his owne frowardnesse or follie.

Rainoldes.

You are the writer, M. Hart. I shewed by the historie of Sigonius, and others, most worthie of credit, that the Popes vsurped Rome, and the dominion of the Roman Dukedom, defrauding the Emperour of his right by treason. You affirme the contrarie. And for proofe thereof you alleage sundrie epistles of S. Gregorie, whereby it appeareth that they had possessions in Afrike, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in Fraunce, in Italie, in Sicilia, and in Sardinia, before the time wherein Sigonius declareth them to hauehave vsurped. But, as your selfe answered, they might hauehave these possessions while they were Bishops, and not Princes. Wherefore in bringing this to proue that they vsurped not the Princedome (so to terme it) and temporall dominion of the Papall State: you disproue not the historie of Sigonius, and the rest, but bewray your owne frowardnesse or follie. Nay you bewray greater fautes of euil & guilful dealing, as you h…ndle it. For whereas Sigonius, & the rest, whom I cited to p…oue the Popes vsurping, are of y^• Popes religion, & therefore of greater credit against the Popes: you say nought to them, but name in their steed our autors of the Centuries. Euen as if the writer (whom I told you of) being vrged with the credit of sir Thomas More and English historians, should answere that although Funccius, a German, report in his Chronicle that Richard did vsurpe, yet is he notably disproued by the euidences of the house of Yorke. Againe, where your conclusion ought to be resolute that y^e Churches poss…ssions were more in S. Gregories time, then they be now: you say they were more, as it may probably be thought. To ouerbeare veritie with probabilitie; the truth, with likelihood of truth: and leaue your selfe a lurking hole, that, although the thing be found to be false, yet you may escape who vouch it not as true, but probable. Moreouer, the time of Gregories being Bishop, you terme it his reigne: thereby to bréede opinion that he had the temporall dominion, as they hauehave now. Wherein that worde is vsed so much the more deceitfully: because it prepareth a way to the mistaking of that p. 420which you alleage out of Gregories epistles touching S. Peters patrimonie. For. S. Peters patrimonie doth signifie the temporall dominion of the Popes, in that of llDe corrupt. eccles. stat. cap. 4Clemangis, which you began your answere with. And so by this [reigne] a man would take it here. Whereas Gregorie meaneth the landes of the Church and Bishopricke of Rome by S. Peters patrimonie; not the dominion temporall, which they had not then. But in these fautes you are the more excusable, because you doo folow the footsteps of Genebrard: whose 11Centuriato…es.Centurie-writers, and 22Fortasse.perhaps, and 33Regnum Ecclesiae.kingdome, and 44Petri patrimoni….sophistrie might bring you to them vnawares. In the next your shame can no way be couered. For whereas your lodesman, hauing searched Gregories epistles of purpose for S. Peters patrimonie, could finde it in no more places but in those which you rehearsed by name: you thinking such flyes too small for the Pope, doo adde (with flat vntruth) and many other countries: beside that [other countries] is brought in so too, as if Campania, Naples, and Italie, were sundry count…ies, where Naples is a towne, Campania a shire of Italie. And yet as though your dealing were sincere and sound, you knit it vp thus, that seeing for this which is the greatest part, so good proofes may be made: no doubt but the Popes can shew verie good euidence when neede shal require for sundry other verie great and large giftes which were bestowed vponupon their See, by diuers Princes, many Nobles, men, and women. The question is of the temporall dominion of the Popes. The proofe you bring thereof from Constantine, is forged; from Gregorie, is fond. So that no part is proued yet, much lesse the greatest. The chiefest of the rest that Popes can shew for it, is Pipines donation, and the successours of Pipine. In it I hauehave conuinced them also of vsurping: who first did begge and take the territories, and ditions, which should hauehave béene restored to their old Lord the Emperour; and afterwarde did vse their n…w Lord as a vasall, and made themselues soueraines of that which was giuen them to hold in fée. To be short, the vanitie of this vaunt of euidence, which the Popes can shew when neede shall require, may be perceyued by mmAugustinus S…uchus Eugubin…s, Aposto…i…e sedis …iblio …hecarius.Eugubinus, their atturney generall, and principall proctor in this cause. Who being enflamed with a Popish deuotion to say the best that he knew, and furnished with the treasures of the Popes librarie to know p. 421the best that might be saide: yet, after many floorishes for Constantines donation of the largest sise, **Con…. …u…ent. Vall. de …. donat. Constantin. lib 2.he addeth in conclusion that (the Pope) Gregorie the third did excommunicate Leo (the Emperour,) and 11Ab eius imperijs Romana Italianique a…er…it.caused Rome and Italie to rebell against him, 22Omnibus …aramento fid… tatis absolutis.absoluing all his subiectes from their oth of fealtie. And so he confuteth the lye which himselfe, and Genebrard doo build on, that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperours, but the Popes: and graunteth by consequent, that the Popes temporall dominion in Italie was vnlawfully gotten, and wrongfully vsurped by this deuise of treason.

Hart.

Nay, nnChronogr. lib. 3. in Sylues… p…im.Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope, if these doo not content men. For I (saith he) answere to heretikes impugning the donation of Constantine that which Iephte did (in the eleuenth of Iudges) to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to bee restored him: we will possesse that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obteined. Vnlesse perhaps thou canst shew that any man did striue about it for the space of three hundred yeares: ( 11Hic permi… & amplius.here for a thousand yeares and more.) Why so long time hauehave you attempted nothing for the recouerie of it? Chiefly, sith the prescription of certaine yeares sufficeth in groundes and possessions. Moreouer, the consent of Italie, and of the Church, and of the whole world is of force enough to giuegive the Pope that right. Finally, that Constantine remoued the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through Gods speciall prouidence, to the end that the kingdome of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might hauehave his seate at Rome, it appeareth by this, that straight the westerne Emperours, Constans and the rest, who folowed for certaine ages, 22Roma sempecesserint.left Rome still, and placed the seate of the westerne Empire at Milan or Rauenna; and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius, Michael, and certaine others would hauehave brought it in againe to Rome, but could not. Wherefore howsoeuer the Popes dominion temporall began, or whensoeuer: it is sure that he hath right vntounto it now.

Rainoldes.

The point that we reason of, is not (M. Hart) what right he hath now, but what wrong heretofore hee hath doone the Emperour to obteine this right. Though neither can you proue his right by these reasons. For, that which ooIudg. 11.…Judg 11Iephte p. 422spake of gotten by the Israelites: they got by lawfull warre. The Pope hath gotten his by vnlawfull treacherie. And prescription holdeth not in thinges that are stollen, and detained by force: if you beleeue pp…. Sequitur. … a…tem. …. Dominu….the law. As for the thousand yeares and more, which Genebrard addeth that no man stroue about it: if he meane, about Constantines donation, no maruell if they stroue not about that which was not. If he meane about that which Popes claime thereby: it hath two vntruthes; one, that they hauehave helde it a thousand yeares, and more; an other, that no man stroue with them about it. For, to passe ouer the Emperours 99In the si…th D…sion of this cha…ter.before touched, and namely Friderike the first: rr… Platin. C…ement. tert. Sigon. de regn. Ital. lib. 11.the Romans them selues had many bickerings with them for the temporall rule and gouernment of the citie, contending that the Pope should medle with the spirituall onelyonly. Whereby withall appeareth how vaine the bragge is of the consent of Italie, the church, and the whole world. Though neither their consent can giuegive the Pope that right: vnlesse the Roman Emperours (the right owners of it) do consent also. And, how they consent, you may learne by late Emperours; of whom, ssMaximilian the first. Guicciard. hist. It…l. lib. 9.one desired to recouer Rome and all the Popes dominion, as being his of right; ttCharles the fifth. Onuphrius in vita Clement. sept. & Pauli ter….an other did more then desire i…: or rather by late Popes, uuGuicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 16.who are afraide of nothing more, then of the Emperours comming into Italie. Now, the last reason of Gods speciall prouidence remouing the seate of the westerne Empire to Constantinople, to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might hauehave his seate at Rome: beside that it is seasoned (after Genebrards maner) with vntruth of storie, as that the western Emperours who succeeded Constantine for certaine ages, left Rome still, xxZosim. hist. …. 5. Sigon. de Occident. imper. lib. 10.which is disproued by Honorius; it wresteth Gods worde to the maintenance of mans pride. For the Churches kingdome, which Daniel forespake of, is yyDan. 7. vers. 18. & 21. &. 25. 1. Machab. 1.22.Dan 7:18Dan 7:21Dan 7:25Dan 7:1the kingdome of the Iewes, touching the temporall state; touching the spirituall, zzDan. 7. vers. 18. & 22. & 27. Hebr. 12.28.Dan 7:18Dan 7:22Dan 7:27Heb 12:28the kingdome of the Saintes that doth endure for euer. And, if we presume vponupon the secret workes of the prouidence of God to gather what the fansie of man doth imagin, not what the wisedom of God hath reuealed: the Turkish impietie may bee as well proued as the Papall kingdom; because as the seate of the westerne Empire is fallen to the Pope, so Constantinople, the seat of the Easterne, is p. 471fallen to the Turke. But whatsoeuer right these reasons may afforde to the Pope now: they acquite him not from hauing doon wrong to the Emperours heretofore, in that he got his temporall dominion from them by treason and rebellion. And this is the first point, wherein you went about to cléere his supremacie. The next, is his tyrannie in spirituall things. Wherein your defense of him is so tempered, that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his faute in those excesses which I laide open: yet doo you smooth them as abuses onelyonly of lawfull autoritie, and not vnlawfull actes of vsurped power. For you say, that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any euill purpose, or els their autoritie, in any of the pointes mentioned by me: you are so farre off from iustifying them therein, that rather you rew to see it, and you condemne them therefore. A short and sclender answere to all their crimes that I touched. Howbeit, if you speake vnfainedly, M. Hart, as I pray God you doo: I am glad that you seeke not to iustifie the Popes in any of the pointes that I charged them with, but rew and condemne their abuses therein. For I laide to their charge that they hauehave oppressed both the ciuil state and the ecclesiasticall: the ciuil, in taking vponupon them to giuegive Empires, to depose Princes, to discharge subiectes of their allegiance and oth; the ecclesiasticall, in making of Church-officers, ordering of Church-causes, disposing of Church-goodes, executing of Church-censures, and establishing of Church-lawes, to serue their owne desires and lustes. In all the which pointes if you condemne their doinges as abuses of their autoritie: you condemne the practise of their whole supremacie as nothing els in grosse but an heape of abuses.

Hart.

Not of their whole supremacie. For though some of them abused their autoritie in sundrie pointes which you mentioned: yet others hauehave not doon so. As we had experience in Quéene Maries dayes: wherein there were not so many Church-liuings bestowed in England vponupon Italian Pastors, as you spake of vnderunder Gregorie the ninth, or Innocentius the fourth. But howsoeuer they dealt with practise of their power, which they abused I graunt: the power it selfe must not be therfore thought vnlawfull; nor was it vsurped because it was abused. For Princes abuse their power oftentimes in oppressing p. 424their subiectes. Yet, you will not say that they vsurpe their Princely power.

Rainoldes.

Neither doo I say that the Pope vsurpeth his Bishoply power, but the supremacie. The vsurping whereof you go about to hide with the mist of abusing; while you distinguish not betwéene a lawfull power vsed vnlawfully, and an vnlawfull power. King Edward the fourth did put to death Burdet (a marchant of London) for saying merily to his sonne, that he would make him inheritour of the crowne: misconstruing his wordes, as though he had meant the crowne of the realme; where he meant his house at the signe of the crowne. Herein the king abused his power, and not vsurped it: because God had giuen him the sworde to execute iustice and iudgement on his subiect; though he vsed it vnlawfully against an innocent. But if he had executed a subiect of the Spanish kinges, or had excommunicated his owne, yea deseruing it; this were an vsurped not an abused power: because he did not beare the sworde ouer Spaine; and the Church-censures belong to the Bishops charge, not to the Princes. In like sorte the Pope of Rome might remoue the Roman Emperour from the communion: as aaSozom en. …ist. eccles. lib. 7. cap. …4.Ambrose Bishop of Milan remoued Theodosius, being of his charge in the Church of Milan. Which if the Pope did vnlawfully, and not as Ambrose: he abused his power. But if he presumed to excommunicate other kings, or to depose the Roman Emperour: the power that he practised therein was vnlawfull, and he vsurped it. Which example of his dealing with the ciuill state, obserueth the tenour of the same disorder in the ecclesiasticall. For if he **1. Tim. 5.22.1 Tim 5:22laide handes rashly vponupon a man whom he had right to ordeine: his power was lawfull, though abused. But if he tooke vponupon him the right of making Pastors, or of giuing benefices and Bishoprickes through all the world: hee did vsurpe vnlawfull power. Wherefore sith the tyranny wherewith I charged him in spirituall things was of the supremacie ouer all Christendome, not of Bishoply power ouer his owne diocese: the power of spiritual rule which he practised ouer both the states ecclesiasticall and ciuill, is not abused, but vsurped. Neither can you salue it with laying the blame on some of the predecessours: as if the successours now were guiltlesse of it. For, though they doo not all commit the same excesse in the execution p. 425of their vsurped power: yet they all maintaine the libertie of dooing it, and doo it when they list. As since Quéene Maries dayes one of your best Popes, Pius the fifth, hath shewed: bb…ulla P…j Quinti contra …lisabetham, Angliae Reginam.who hath excommunicated, yea, 11P…i…amus Elisabe…ham praetenso iure regni.deposed also our gratious Quéene Elisabeth; and ccRegulae Cancellariae Pi… Papae Quinti in …clog. Bullar. & Motu-proprior.reserued benefices, dignities, and 22Reseruauit generaliter omnes ecclesias Patriarchales, Archiepiscopales, Episcopales,Bishoprickes to his owne bestowing from them who should elect their pastours by right. Of the which thinges sith he tooke vnlawful power in the one, to depose Princes, as your selfe hauehave told me that you are of opinion; in the other, ddNicolaus Clemangis d… corrupto ecclesiae statu: cap. 5. & 7.the autour, the good autour (whom you praysed) confirmeth that the Popes, bestowing the Church-liuings so, doo that they ought not: your owne conscience, M. Hart, and your autours iudgement should moue you to confesse their supremacie in spirituall thinges to be vsurped, no lesse, then I hauehave shewed it to be in temporall. But if perhaps you will not graunt so much yet, suspending your sentence till the chapters folowing, whereto you referre vsus: the third and last point, that they erred in office, is proued notwithstanding euen by that you graunt. And therefore you say that onelyonly this is it which you goe about to defend in them, that because of Christes promise, of building his church vponupon that rocke; and prayer also that their faith should not faile; they neuer erred in iudgement, or definitiue sentence. Wherein, being driuen by force of euident truth from your maine distinction, that the Pope may erre in person, not in office; as a priuat man, not as Pope: you retire from all the wards of your castle into the celler as it were, and say that in a corner of his office he neuer erred; but otherwise in office and eueryevery part thereof he hath.

Hart.

Nay, this was my meaning by that distinction at the first. As you may perceiue by that eeIn the 3. Diuis. of this chapter.I spake expresly of definitiue sentence: and saide, that he cannot erre iudicially.

Rainoldes.

Then your meaning was to put the coate of Hercules vponupon a dwarfes bodie. For the Popes office is a great deale larger then iudgement or definitiue sentence. And when you saide withall that the Euangelistes, and other penners of holy write, for the execution of that function had the assistance of God, and so farre could not erre possibly: you séemed to insinuate that the Popes hauehave likewise the assistance of God for the execution of their function; and can no more erre in discharging of it, then could the Euangelists in writing of the p. 426Gospell. But sith you sée now that in function and office they may be as false, as the Gospell is true; which in eueryevery parte thereof I hauehave proued: you shall sée as much in this remnant also of iudgement & definitiue sentence, vnlesse you shut your eies against y^e light of manifest proofe. For what doo you meane by saying that the promise and prayer of Christ kéepeth them from erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence? Doo you not meane that they cannot teach against the truth in a matter of faith, because the Church of Christ shalbe built vponupon them, & their faith shall not faile, that they may strengthen their brethren.

Hart.

I meane (as I declared) that they cannot nor shal not euer iudicially conclude or giuegive definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith, in their Consistories, Courtes, Councels, decrées, deliberations, or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies, doutes, or questions of faith as shall bee proposed vntounto them: because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren.

Rainoldes.

The issue of our conference shall trye that they hauehave erred thus in eueryevery point of the Catholike faith, wherein they teach against vsus: as euen in this first of their owne supremacie. But I will shew presently that they hauehave doone it in such things as your selues confesse to be doctrines of falshood or heresie. And that will I shew by the same autours (or as good as them) of whom you vouch so boldly, that you are sure they doo maintaine this, of the Popes not erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence, no lesse then you do. …or In Chronico.Sigebert, ggSupputat. …omanor. Pont.Martinus Polonus, hhDe reg…. I…al. lib. 6.and Sigonius doo witne… that Pope Stephen the sixth decreed in a councel, that they who were ordeined Bishops by Pope Formosus were not ordeined lawfully, because the man was wicked by whom they were ordeined.

Hart.

Pope Stephen did depriue them of their orders, & (as Sigebert termeth it) 11Exordinauit ordinatos a Formoso.did vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus. He erred in a matter of fact, not of faith.

Rainoldes.

He erred in a matter of fact and faith both. For he did not onelyonly depriue and vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus: but he 22Ordinationes …u▪ omnes …irri…as esse debere decernit.decreed too, (as Sigebert withall noteth) that all the ordeinings of Formosus ought to bee voide. Wherein he did folow the errour of the Donatists: p. 427iiAug…tin. cont…. epist. …a… men. lib. 2. cap. 13. & 14. De bapt…sm. contr. Donat lib. 1. cap. 1. &. 2.who (as if the sacrament had his force from men that are the ministers of it, not from God, the autour;) thought them not well baptized who were baptized by euill ministers, and so baptized them againe. Yea, that very fact of Stephens is reproued therefore by kkRe…. per Europ. gestar. lib. 1. cap. 8.Luitprandus, (a graue and learned writer that liued about the same time,) though **For he calleth him Sergius: …ut it was Stephen, as it appeereth by the Councell of Rauenna, vnderunder Iohn the ninth. Sigon. de regn. Ital. lib. 6. The humour of Sergius, which Stephen serued in it, (as being set vp by his faction) occasioned be like the name to be mistaken.mistaking his name, yet iudging of the thing rightly. For after the rehersall thereof, that depriuing all them of their degree who were ordeined by Formosus, he did ordeine them againe: which thing (saith Luitprandus) how wickedly he did you may perceue by this, that euen they who receyued grace or Apostolike blessing of Iudas the betrayer of Christ before he betrayed him, were not depriued of it after he had betrayed him and hanged himselfe. For the blessing which is bestowed on the seruants of Christ, is not powred on them by that Priest which is seene, but by that Priest which is not seene. For neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth, but God that giueth the encrease. So manifestly caried the fact of Pope Stephen a sauour of Donatisme, that is, of a notorious errour in faith: though he had not approued it by his decrée. Much more sith he decréed the thing as true and lawfull.

Hart.

To say that holy orders giuen by a Bishop, be he neuer so wicked, are voide, and of no force: it is an errour in faith, I graunt. But this of Luitprandus is denyed by llIn Chronico.Sigebert, that he ordeined them againe whom he depriued.

Rainoldes.

whether he ordeined them againe, or no: it maketh not the matter. Though, by mmConcil. Rauenn. ann. Do… 893. Sigo…. de regn. Ital. lib. 6.the Councell in which Iohn the ninth condemned Stephen and his Councell, it séemeth rather he did, at the least some of them. For there 11Reordinationes.new ordeininges are namely forbidden, and matched with 22Rebaptizationes.new baptizinges. Which, if Stephen had not offended therein as the Donatists did, why should it be so touched? But whether he ordeined them againe or no: hee decréed that which your selues acknowledge to be an errour in faith; & he decréed it in a Councell.

Hart.

But the Councell did not approue that decrée by frée voyce & iudgement. The Pope did extort their consent through feare: nnSigon. de reg. Ital. lib. 6.as it appeereth by the Councell that condemned him.

Rainoldes.

This is not to proue that the Popes decréees in Councells are good: but to disproue rather the certaintie which p. 428you gaue them in Consistories, Courtes, and Councels. For not onelyonly Bishops assembled in the Councell, but also Lawiers in the Court, yea Cardinals themselues in the Consistorie of y^e Pope, may agree for feare to that which they like not, as ooG…icciard. hist. I…al. lib. 13.Leo the tenth made them to doo. And, if the soundnes of the Popes decrees may be distained by this affection: it may by other causes, and impediments also. For what if ppTheodoric. a Niem. de schis. …. 1. cap 5.the Cardinals, mislyking of the Pope for reprouing their fautes, qqcap. 7.leaue him (as they did Vrban the sixth) and rrcap. 10.make a new Pope? What if they bee vnfaithfull that he dare not trust their counsell and aduise, ssIouius de vita Adrian. sext.as Adrian the sixth durst not? What if they giuegive him lewde and wicked counsell, that it deceiue him if he trust it? Such as was the counsel of Cardinall ttLa…rc…tio Pucio Cardinale, nullum omnino quaestum ponti…icibus illicitum esse praedicante. Cuius, vt diuini iuris pericissimi, Leo fidē obtestatus est. ne se imprudenter in errorem labi pateretur. Iouius de vita Leon. decim. lib. 4.Pucio: who exhorted Popes to make any gaine, and said that they might doo it lawfully. Chabrias, a skillfull man of warre said, uuPlutarch in Apophthegm. Reg. & Imperat.that an armie of hartes is more to be feared hauing a lyon to their captaine, then an armie of lyons hauing a hart. You bear vsus in hand that the Pope is a lyon, and other men are hartes. But you make him the hart (me thinkes) & them lyons, when you say that himselfe may erre and faile in faith, but he can not doo it in Consistories, Courtes & Councels. As if Christ had prayed for his brethren to strengthen him, and not for him to strengthen his brethren.

Hart.

Nay, I made not mention of his brethren so, as if the assurance of truth in his decrees did depend of them. For, though it behooue him to vse their aduise, and therefore I spake of Consistories, Courtes, and Councels: yet, whether he folow their aduise or no, his decrées are true. But as for Pope Stephen, I can not thinke that he decréed that errour. At least, if he decreed it, yet he set not foorth a decrée of it, as to teach the Church.

Rainoldes.

But if he decréed it, he erred in iudgement and definitiue sentence: which is the point that you denyed. Howbeit to driue you from this shelter also: Pope Caelestine the third xxc. Laudabilem de conuersione infideli…m.set foorth a decree, that when of maryed persons one falleth into heresie, the mariage is dissolued, and the catholike partie is free to mary againe. Flat yyMart. 19.9.against the scripture, that whosoeuer dimisseth his wyfe, but for whooredom, and marieth an other, doth commit adulterie; and whosoeuer marieth her that is dimissed, doth commit adulterie.

Hart.

This was Pope Caelestines opinion, not decrée. For p. 429zzc. Quanto. de …iuoitijs.Pope Innocentius the third, who speaketh of it, saith not that he defined but that he thought so.

Rainoldes.

Yet Pope Innocētius saying that he 11Sensisse.thought so, doth vse that worde in Latin, which 22Sententia.sentence cometh from: th… …e might note thereby the definitiue sentence of Caelestine, not the opinion. But whatsoeuer one Pope thought of another: Alfonsus, a famous patrone of the Papacie, doth shew that he defined it. aaAl…ons. a Cast…o aduers haeres. lib. 1. cap. 4.For that Pope Caelestine did erre (saith Alfonsus) about the mariage of the faithfull of whom one falleth into heresie it is manifest to all men. Neither was this errour of Caelestin such as ought to be imputed to negligence alone, that we may say he erred as a priuate man, and not as Pope, who in 33Definienda.defining of any serious matter should aske counsell of learned men. For this 44Definitio.definition of Caelestine was 55In antiquis decretalibus.extant in the old decretals, which I my selfe hauehave seene & read. And this of Alfonsus is confirmed farther by Cardinal bbSuper quart… decretalium. c. quanto de diuo…tijs.Hostiensis: who noteth the very 66§ Idem …iquidem.paragraph of 77De conuersione infid. c. Laudabilem.the chapter in the which it was, & speaketh of it as a decretal. Wherefore though the chapter be maimed of y^e paragraph **Since y^e yeare of Christ. 1260▪since Hostiensis time: yet these recordes suffice to shew that it was a decree of Pope Caelestines, set forth to teach the Church.

Hart.

There are ccGratianus distinct. 19. c. Ita Dominus. § Hoc autem. Adrianus, in 4. sē tent. de confirmat. quaest. vlt. Gerson, & Almain, Parisiēses Theologi.some of our Doctors (as ddLocor. Theolog. lib. 6. cap. 1.Canus declareth) who thinke that the Pope may erre in iudgement of faith. Alfonsus and Hostiensis might hauehave that fansie too. But if y^e decrée (whereof they speake) were set forth perhaps to teach y^e Church: yet not to teach the Church that point. For in a point touched or handled by the way, Popes may erre, (as eelib. …. c. 8.Canus & D. ffPrincip. doc…. lib. 8. cap. 14.Stapleton shew:) but not in the conclusion, that is, the principal point which they entend to teach.

Rainoldes.

Now you may sée how vainely you st…iue for y^e Pope. For this, which is your last hold when all is doone, I oue… threw ggIn the .2. Diuision of this chapter.at first by the example of Honorius. The conclusion and principal point of whose hhDogmatica scripta Honorij ad Sergium. Sext. Synod. Cō stantinop. act. 12decrees set forth to teach the Church, was the Monothelites heresie. Whereby he did not strengthen his brethren in the faith, but ii…mp…a Sergi… dogmata cōfirm…uit.confirmed their wicked errors against the faith, as **Sext. Synod. Constan…inop. act. 13. Inuenimu….the Councel pronounced of him.

Hart.

Why doo all the Fathers then apply this priuilege of not failing and of confirming other in faith to the Roman Church, and Peters successors in the same.

Rainoldes.

They doo not. But your kkIn their Annotations on Luk. …2.31.Luke 2:31Rhemists who report p. 430that of them, do shamefully misreport them. For llDe corrept. & grati… cap. 8.Austin, mmHom. 83. in Matthaeum. & 72. in Iohannē.Chrysostom, nnDe vocat. …. cap. 24.Prosper, and ooIn Luc. 2….Luke 2Theophylact doo vnderstand by [faith] a liuely Christian faith, and say that Christ prayed that Peter might continue therein vntounto the end. Which grace neither they nor any Father saith that all the Popes hauehave. Nay ppIn y^• 1. Diuis. of this Chapt.your selfe, qqTurrecrem. in …. de eccles. l. 2. c. 112. Canus Loc. Theolog. l. 6. c. 1. Bellarmin. Cō t…o…. 4. p. 2. q. 1.your Doctors, yea rrIn their Annot. Luk. 22.31.Luke 22:31Rhemists do confesse the contrarie.

Hart.

Yet **Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 15.the rocke, no doubt, whereon Christ did promise that he would build his Church and the gates of hell should not preuaile against it, is applyed by the Fathers to Peters successors in the church of Rome. S. aaIn Psalm. contr. partem donat.Austin is a witnesse thereof against the Donatistes, whom he biddeth number the Priestes (that is the Popes) euen from the seate of Peter, and marke their succession: affirming it to be the rocke against which the proude gates of hell preuaile not. The eighth Diuisiō.And S. bbEpist. 57.Ierom writing to Damasus the Pope, auoucheth as much: I am ioyned saith he, in communion to your holinesse, that is, to Peters chaire. I know that the Church is builded vponupon that rocke.

Rainoldes.

The poore shippe of Christ hath made almost shipwracke vponupon this rocke of yours. I hauehave ccChapt. 2. Diuis. 1.alreadie proued, that the word petra, which you translate a rocke, doth signifie in Christes spéech, a stone, not a rocke. Howbeit rocke, or stone, it mak…th no difference to the sayings of the Fathers, which you alleage, concerning it. For whether they meant a stone, as it is properly; or a rocke, as it may be they did, (at least S. ddWho applyeth the rocke to Christ: De verbis Domin. Serm. 13. Retractat. lib. 1. …ap. 21.Austin ▪) through doutfulnesse of the worde: they meant not to build the Papacie therby. Wherfore if you thinke that the name of stone either hath not so great aduantage for your purpose, or doth not yéelde so fully the meaning of the Fathers: I am content (with out preiudice to that which I hauehave spokē touching the right sense thereof in Christes spéech) to vse your rocke in steede of it.

Hart.

So you must doo, if you will deale with my argument. For the maiestie of the Church of Rome is much aduanced by the name of the rocke: and in my iudgement the Fathers meant no lesse when they applyed y^e words of Christ to that Sée.

Rainoldes.

The Fathers vsed those wordes to aduance the maiestie of the Church of Rome: but neither to aduance the church of Rome alone, neither to import the Popes supremacie by that maiestie. And this may be gathered plainely by S. eeEpist. 27. ad lapso….Cyprian, who although he giuegive a ffEpist. 55. ad Cornelium.speciall ti…le of honour & preeminence to the Church of Rome: yet doth he apply that of the rock p. 431to the Church in general. For he affirmeth that our Lord tooke order for the office of a Bishop and the state of his Church by saying vntounto Peter, Thou art Peter, and on this rocke will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it: and, to thee will I giuegive the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen. Thence by course of times, and successions, there floweth 11Episcoporum ordinatio.the ordeining of Bishops and 22Ecclesiae ratio.the state of the Church: that 33Ecclesia super episcopos constituatur.vponupon the Bishops the Church should be set, and eueryevery action of the Church should be gouerned and guided by the same rulers. In the which wordes S. Cyprian (you see) accounteth all Bishops the rocke of the Church. That as by the church built vponupon the rocke, the whole Church is meant, and not the Church of Rome, or of Carthage onelyonly: so neither the Bishop of Rome, nor of Carthage, may be represented alone by the rocke, and yet as well the Bishop of Carthage as of Rome.

Hart.

Howsoeuer it seemed in S. Cyprians iudgement to belong to all Bishops, and so after a sort to the Bishop of Carthage, as **Epist. 27. a… lapsos.he applyeth it: yet other of the Fathers apply it in speciall to the Bishop of Rome, & giuegive it particularly to that Church, & Sée.

Rainoldes.

They doo: but in such sort, that they might hauehave done it to any faithfull Church, euen to the Church of Carthage, as S. Cyprian did. For that which is verified of a thing in generall, is verified in the speciall. As, for example, the Catholike Church in generall is named ggHeb. 10: 21.Heb 10:21the house of God, and hhCant. 4.12.Song 4:12the spouse of Christ. The Apostle applyeth those titles in special, iiHeb. 3.6.Heb 3:6the one to the Hebrewes, kk2. Cor. 11.2.2 Cor 11:2the other to the Corinthians, if they continue faithfull. And so what Christ hath said of his whole Church, that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it: that is true in eueryevery part of his Church. And if he named Peter, a rocke, (in respect of the faith that hee professed,) on the which he said he would build his Church; then al, on whom (professing the same faith of Christ) his Church in part is builded, may, in a proportion, be called rockes also. Wherefore sith the Fathers did speake of the Church of Rome when it was holy, and of the Roman Bishops, when they professed the faith of Peter: no maruaile, if they said the Church was built on that rocke, and the gates of hell did not preuaile against it. Howbeit I deny not but that in their spéeches of the Church of Rome p. 432they giuegive more vntounto it then they could hauehave giuen to eueryevery faithfull Church. For whereas of the sundry Churches of Christ some were planted by the Apostles them selues, as llAct. 2.41.Acts 2:41Ierusalem, mm11.26.Antioche, nn1….….Corinth, oo28.30.Rome; some receiued the faith from them which the Apostles planted: ppTertullian. de praesc…ipt. adue…s. haeret. August. epist. 162. & 164. & de doctrin. Christian. l 2 c. 8.they had the former sort in greater reputation, and called them Apostolike Churches; amongst which they counted the Church of Rome qqCyprian. ep. 55.a chiefe one, rrIrenae. aduers. haeres. l. 3. c. 3.as planted by the chiefe Apostles Peter and Paule. And because it was famous that Peter had preached the Gospel there, (whom as the first Apostle it séemeth that the Romans did more reioyce in, then in Paule:) thence it commeth that in speaking of the Church of Rome, they mention oftentimes the seat and chaire of Peter. For they who did teach, were wont to teach fitting: as I shewed **In the 4. Diuis. of this Chapt.before by ssMatt. 26.55. Luc. 4 20. Ioh. 8.2.Matt 26:55Luke 4:20John 8:2the example of Christ, and ttMatt. 23.2.Matt 23:2his wordes of the Scribes and Pharises. Whereupon, as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul, that uuAct. 18.11. foreign.Acts 18:11he sate at Corinth a yeare & sixe monethes, teaching the word of of God amongst them, meaning that he continued there, and preached to them: in like sort xxDamasus in Ponti…icali. Hierō. de scrip…or. eccles. verbo Petrus. August. contr. liter. Petilian. l. 2. c. 51.the Fathers, …o signifie that Peter abode and taught in Rome, are accustomed to say that he sate at Rome. So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter. So doth Ierom honor the Bishop of that See with the n…me of Peters chaire. But what is this to the supremacie? For it is spoken by yyEuseb. in Chronic. Damasus in Pontificali.the Fathers also, that Peter did sit and h…d h…s ch…ire at Antioche: yea at Antioche (as zzDurand. in Rationali diuin. off. l. 7. c. 8.some say) he had in deede **Excelsam ca…hedram.a high chaire, wherin he was exalted. And of his chaire at Antioche, you hauehave an aaFebruar. 22. Cathedra S. Petri Antiochiae. Durand. l. 7. c. 8.olde holy day; of his chaire at Rome, a bbIanuar. 18. Cathedra S. Petri Romae. Onuphr. annotat. in Pla…in. vit. Petri.new one, trimmed of late. Wherefore if the high chaire of Peter at Antioche with an olde feaste could not make the Bishop of Antioche supreme head: how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peters chaire (perhaps a lower chaire) at Rome, with a newe feast? If the new feast be that which maketh vp the matter: the Pope was no foole in making that feast. He may doo well to make m…e.

Hart.

You make your selfe sport with our feastes of S. Peters chaire: as though I had said, that because the Fathers doo name the Sée of Rome the seat and chaire of Peter, therefore the Bishop of Rome must hauehave the supremacie. Whereas I alleaged them to shew that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in p. 433that See is the rocke, on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built; against which S. Austin saith, y^t the proud gates of hell preuaile not.

Rainoldes.

But **Staple… … doctr…. 6 c. …5.you doo conclude the Popes supremacie hereof: or els you stray from the question.

Hart.

Why may I not conclude it?

Rainoldes.

If you list: but the feast of S. Peters chaire would proue it more galantly. For if the testimonies, which you alleage, of Ierom and Austin, be examined: they say nothing for it. S. Ierom abiding (in his young yeares) among the Arian heretikes in the coastes of Syria, was required by their Bishop to allow and approue a profession of faith touching the Trinitie, wherein he suspected there lay some priuy poyson hidden. Wherefore least he should yéelde thereunto rashly, he sought to be directed by the aduise and counsell of Damasus Bishop of Rome: as whom both hee acknowledged to bee his owne Bi…hop, and knew to be a Bishop that helde the catholike faith; which praise by that title of the rocke he giueth him. In Afrike, they were troubled with other heretikes named Donatistes: a sect which despised the communion of Saintes, and rent them selues a sunder from the assemblies of Christians, because there were some euil men amongst them (as they said) whose felowship defiled them. S. Austin wrote a Psalme for the Catholiks against these: wherein, hauing proued first out of the scriptures, that we must not leaue the communion of the Church for that there are some euill men in it, sith Christ hath declared that there should be so, as tares with corne, in the field; as chaffe with wheate in the floore; as badde with good, in the nett; he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent & iudgement of the Church of Rome, whose Bishops euen from Peter had imbraced it still, and constantly maintained it, the gates of hel in vaine assaulting them. So the wordes of Austin and Ierom doo import a sinceritie of faith in the Church of Rome & the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatistes: but neither of their wordes import the supremacie, which is a soueraintie of power.

Hart.

If they had not meant as well a soueraintie of power as sinceritie of faith: why should they mention that Church and not others? Were there no Bishops sincere through al y^e world, p. 434but the Bishops of Rome onelyonly?

Rainoldes.

Yes a great many, and they mention them too. For Ierom, though he asketh the aduise of Damasus, a young man of an old, **Epist. 57. a me homine Romano.a Roman of the Bishop of Rome, whose ccTheodoret. hist. eccles. l. 2.….22. & l. 5. c. 10. Symbolum Damasi apud Hier. Tom. 9.religion was sound, whose ddTh…odoret. lib. 5. cap. 2. & 3.authoritie was great, and the greater with Ierom because he knew him well, as eeHier. epist. 57. & 58. Damaso.hauing lerned him selfe the faith of Christ in Rome, where he was baptized: yet doth he name S. Ambrose (the Bishop then of Milan) as sound in faith also, and the Bishops of Aegypt, yea of **Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 5. c. 6.the west in generall. ffHier. epist. 57.Now in the west (saith he) the sunne of righteousnes ariseth, and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept vncorrupted amongst you alone. In like sort doth ggIn Psalmo contr. part. Donati.Austin note, against the Donatistes, (whose canker had fretted but a péece of Afrike,) that Bishops of the coastes and countries beyond sea, and Churches through the whole world, were pure from their heresie. Howbeit, as Ierom preferred the aduise of Damasus before others to confirme himselfe: so did Austin choose the Church of Rome aboue the rest to confirme his brethren. For hhAugust. retractat. l. 1. c. 20.he penned his Psalme (wherin this is writen) of purpose to the capacitie of the very meanest & simplest of the people: y^t they might vnderstād and remember the state of the controuersie with the Donatistes. Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authoritie of the Church of Rome: iiTertull. de praescript. aduers. hae…et.which, of all the Churches that the Apostles planted, was both néerest to them, and best estéemed of amongst them. But how farre S. Austin was from your fansie of the Popes supremacie, when he alleaged the Church of Rome to this intent: let that bee a token, that, writing for the learned who were of greater reach, he alleageth the Churches kkAugust. con…. liter. Petil. l. 2. c. 51.of Ierusalem, llEpist. 164. ad Emeritum. De vnitate Ecc…esiae c. 11. & 12.of Corinth, of Antioche, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, of Asia, Bithynia, Galatia, Cappadocia, in a worde, mmContr. Cres…on. gramm. l. 3. c 18. & epist. 161. ad Honoratum.of all the rest as well as of Rome. And this may be semblably noted in S. Ierom. nnEpist. 77 ad Mar…um presb….Who, when the Arians charged him with heresie, did iustifie his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Aegypt, of Damasus Bishop of Rome, and Peter Bishop of Alexandria. According to oo…ozom. histor …le… l. …. c. 4. ….the law of the Emperour Theodosius: wherein it is decréed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholikes, who beleeued of the Trinitie as Damasus and Peter did; the rest to be accounted and punished as heretikes. A great prayse (I graunt) of the faith p. 435of Damasus, that so good an Emperour did set him for a sampler whom Christians should folow: but a prayse common … him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria; and ppSozom. l. 7. ….common to them both with sundrie Bishops of the East, Nectarius, Pelagius, Diodorus, Amphilochius, Helladius, Otrein…s, Gregorie Ny…en, and mo. Of whom the same Emperour did … make an other law, that none should hauehave the ch…rge of …ishoprickes committed to them but such as we… of their faith. Whereby you may perceyue that the prayse giuen to Damasus by Ierom, proueth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other; not a soueraine power, peculiar to him alone aboue all.

Hart.

Then you graunt, at least, that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre in faith by S. Ieroms iudgement.

Rainoldes.

Or, at least, you take it, though neither I doo graunt it, nor is it proued by S. Ierom. But this is proued, and I grant it, that he did not erre in the faith of the Trinitie, when Damasus was Bishop of Rome.

Hart.

When Damasus was Bishop? Why do you so restraine it? S. Ieroms wordes be generall. I am ioyned in communion vntounto your holinesse, that is to Peters chaire. I know that the Church is builded vponupon that rocke. Behold, to Peters chaire. He speaketh not to Damasus as in respect of Damasus, but in respect of the chaire, and so of the succession of the Bishops of Rome: that, what hee saith to one, belongeth to them all.

Rainoldes.

If you set his wordes vponupon such tenters, they will neuer hold. For, qqDe scripto…i…bus ecclesiast. verbo Fortunatianus.him selfe reporteth that the next Bishop of Rome before Damasus, Liberius by name, subscribed to the Arian heresie.

Hart.

S. Ierom reporteth so: but he might be deceiued by some misreporte. For he could say nothing more of that matter, then what he had by heare-say.

Rainoldes.

But seing that hee liued so néere to that time, and in the same place, and loued the Sée of Rome, and yet doth report this matter of Liberius, and report it constantly, not onelyonly in his booke of Ecclesiasticall writers, but in rrIn adiect. ad Chronic. Euseb▪his Chronicle also: it is more likely, that hee did both know and testifie the truth, then ssChron. lib. …Pontacus (who maketh your exception against p. 436him) or any man that liueth now.

Hart.

Why? will not you credit a man that liueth now in any thing against S. Ierom?

Rainoldes.

Yes: if he bring me good reason to disproue him.

Hart.

And Pontacus doth so. For he sheweth that Epist. 74.Basil, uuDe virgin. l. 3.Ambrose, and xxHaeres. 75.Epiphanius, do call Liberius a blessed man: and that yyIn apolog. 2.Athanasius doth frée him from the spot of Arianisme.

Rainoldes.

Basil, Ambrose, and Epiphanius, do call Liberius a blessed man. What? Therefore he subscribed not to the Arian heresie? Then you may say that Peter did not deny Christ. For, ttSerm. de humil…t.Basil, uuDe fide lib. 5. in praefat.Ambrose, and xxIn anchorat.Epiphanius doo call Peter a blessed man. They are blessed, who repent them selues of their sinnes, as Peter did of his denyall: and so might zzSocrat. hist. eccles. l. 4 c. 11. Sozom. l. 6. c. 12.Liberius doo of his subscription. As for yyIn apolog. 2.Athanasius, though hee say that Liberius condemned the heresie of the Arians, and therefore suffered banishment: yet hee saith withall, that hee continued not in suffering banishment to the end, but aaAthanas. in epist. ad solit. vit. agent.through feare of death subscribed to that heresie with his hand, though with his heart he were still against it. Thus euen Athanasius, who liued at the same time with Liberius, and knew his state well, acknowledgeth that he subscribed: though iudging most friendly (both for his owne sake, and the causes,) that he consented not. But, bbIn Pontificali.Damasus Bishop of Rome, who succéeded Liberius, and might know the matter better then Athanasius, doth write that Liberius did consent also to Constantius the Arian.

Hart.

Although this be writen in the booke of Damasus: yet it is not likely that Damasus wrote it. For, ccSumm. Concilior. in vit. Libe…j.Carranza noteth, that there are many who dout of that storie. And ddAnnot. in Plat. vit. Felicis secund.Onuphrius, a man verie skilfull of antiquities, chiefly of the Roman, discrediteth both the report and the autour of it▪ saying, that Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie, was (as hee thinketh) the first who beleeued it, and thrust it into the booke of Damasus, as many other thinges besides.

Rainoldes.

What Anastasius did, I know not. But if he stuffed Damasus with any thing of his owne: it was belike in such thinges rather, as aduance, then empeach the Popes credit. Howbeit, if Onuphrius in that he denyeth Liberius was an Arian, p. 437doo meane that he subscribed not to the Arian heresie, and that this report came first from Anastasius: what answereth hee then to Ierom, and Athanasius, and eeHist. eccles…ast. lib. 4. cap. ….Sozomen, (and ffIn ….Marcellinus in effect too,) who wrote it all with one consent, the youngest of them a hundred yeares before Anastasius was borne. As for Carranzas note, that there are many who doubt of that storie: hee must shew who they be, and what groundes of dout they hauehave. Or els, those many may be such as himselfe and Onuphrius: whose doubting may not preiudice the credit of historians that wrote a thousand yeares before them. Chiefly, if they hauehave no surer groundes then Carranza: who, to disproue the storie, alleageth that Liberius wrote one epistle to Athana…ius and the Bishops of Aegypt against the Arians; and another to all Bishops, exhorting them to constancie. Which reasons are so poore, that your owne ggSanction▪ …clesiast. class▪ 3. in vita Liberij.Iouerius, a Paris Doctour of Diuinitie, rehersing them by occasion, hath withall refuted them. But sée to what miserable shiftes you are driuen to vphold the pride of the man of Rome. Because it were a staine vntounto his supremacie, if his predecessour Liberius subscribed against the Catholike faith: therefore you rather choose to deny it; and how? First the autoritie of Ierom is alleaged affirming it in his Chronicle. Your hhHierar. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. ….Pighius doth answere that some hath interlaced those wordes into his Chronicle, through ignorance or fraude. When this answere séemed hard, because Ierom hath other where affirmed it also: your Pontacus (to helpe it) replieth that Ierom could say nought thereof, but what he had by heare-say. When proofe of this heare-say is made out of Damasus: your Onuphrius supposeth him to be corrupted by Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie. When Sozomen, a Gréeke writer, confirmeth Damasus, and Ierom: Your Christophorson, who translateth him, doth make him hold his peace, or rather witnesse to the contrary. For where he saith in his owne tongue, that the Emperour 11foreign.compelled Liberius to subscribe: he saith, by your transl…tor, the Emperour 22Tentauit cō pelle…e.assayed to compel him. And where he saith 33foreign,in his owne tongue, that certaine Arian Bishops 33foreign,procured him to consent: he saith, by your translator, 44Conantur vt consentiat.they endeuored that he should consent. When farder Marcellinus is found to agrée with Sozomens report: your iiChronogr. l. 3.Genebrard séeing Ierom approued by them both, doth raze out that of Ponta…us p. 438(that Ierom could say nought thereof but by heare-say) and doth assalt him with the Fathers. Wherein, (besides them, whom you alleaged out of Pontacus,) he citeth Socrates and Theodoret: kkHistor. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. 11.Socrates, declaring that Liberius was no Arian in the time of Valens the Emperour; as though this were a proofe that hee subscribed not to the Arian heresie in the time of Constantius: llHistor. ecclesiast lib. 5. cap. 6.Theodoret, auouching that the west was alwayes free form Arianisme; which is lesse to the purpose, Theodoret speaking generally as for the most part, and in respect of the East by way of comparison. For himselfe had shewed mmLib. 4. c. 5.before that Auxentius, a westerne Bishop, was an Arian. Now for Athanasius, who is the most auncient witnesse of this matter, and of such valure that your nnDefens. …id. Trident. lib. 2.Andradius could not but yéeld himselfe vntounto him: yet Genebrard & Pontacus thought it good policie to name him as gainesaying Ierom therein; where Ierom saith the same that he doth, so plainely & fully y^t your ooContr. Brent. lib. 2.Hosius is faine to shape one answere to them both, that they beleeued a false rumour. Wherewith your ppPraelect. Rom. Sontrou. 4. p. 2. q. 1.Bellarmin doth cast them off too. And this shift of laying the blame on false rumours séemed so hansome to your qqAnnot. in vitam Liber. Concil. Tom. 1.Surius, that he (belike misliking Onuphrius shift of Anastasius,) applyeth it to Damasus also. For colouring wherof, he saith, that very auncient historians and writers beare witnesse of Liberius most constant perseuerance in defense of the Catholike faith. But being not able to name as much as one of these very auncient historians and writers, of whom hee boasteth with shamelesse lye: he sendeth his reader (a thing most ridiculous) to **Nicephor. Callist. hist. ecclesiast. l. 9. c. 37.Nicephorus a late writer, who (saith he) doubtlesse did draw his writings out of the auncient. In déede that 1which Nicephorus hath of this point, he drewe it out of Sozomen: and, if the Gréeke were extant, the truth were easily tryed, but either he did change his autour in 11foreign.three wordes, which is not likely, sith he folowed him through all the chapter foote by foote;33foreign. or (which is most likely) your Langus, who 22foreign.translated him 2out ofa writē copie, was as bold with him, as Christopherson with Sozomen. 11Suadere ten…auit.Such follies and treacheries you wrappe your selues in,22Studuere. to kéepe men from opinion, that a Pope subscribed to the Arian heresie.33Conabantur. Which, had you not hardened your faces as flint to sooth the presumption of the Papall See, I sée no cause why you should doo: chiefely sith your selues do teach (as In the 2. Diuis. of this chapte….I hauehave shewed) p. 439that the Pope may be an heretike, and not subscribe to heresie onelyonly. But if you be affected so tenderly to the Pope, that you will rather graunt any fault in others then such a spot in him; if you can say with out blushing, that Damasus was corrupted, Athanasius light of credit, Marcellinus a false Chronicler; that Sozomen is truer in Latin, then in Gréeke; in your translation, then his owne tounge; that rr…h…on lib. ….Marianus Scotus, ssIn supputat. R…man. …Martinus Polonus, tt… in Chron …Ado, uuCh…on. lib. 1.Rhegino, xx….Antoninus, yy… Iebe… secund.Platina, & zz…. de … ▪ cath… l. …. c 5. Al…on…other later writers were deceiued by Ierom; that Ierom was abused himselfe by false rumours; to be short, that the Papistes who liue in our daies can tell what was done twelue hundred yeares ago, better then them selues who liued at that time, andsince from age to age: yet you cannot say but that Ierom thought that Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresie; yea, aaCa…h. contr. ha r. l. …. c. 4. Albert. K…ntz. Metrop. l. 2. cap. 1.that Felix (the next Bishop of Rome after Liberius) was an Arian; he thought it. Wherefore, if he had meant ofthe whole succession of the Roman Bishops that which he wrote to Damasus, I am ioyned in communion vntounto your holinesse, that is, to Peters chaire; I know that the Church is builded vponupon that rocke: then hee must hauehave meant, that▪ before the time that Damasus was Bishop, he ought to hauehave béene ioyned in communion to the Arians, and that the Arians holinesse was the chaire of Peter, and that the Church was built vponupon the rocke of Arians. But this abomination was farre from S. Ierom. S. Ierom therefore meant not the succession, but Damasus, who succéeded Peter, as in chaire, so in doctrine; and taught the faith which Peter did: a faith as cleane contrarie to the Arians faith, as light is to darkenes, as life is to death.

Hart.

But questionlesse S. bbIn Psalm. c…tra pa…. Donat.Ps 100Austin meant the whole succession of the Bishops of Rome, when he wrote against the Donatistes, Number ye the Priestes euen from the very seat of Peter, & in that ranke of Fathers marke who succeeded whom: that is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not. The gates of hell (saith Austin) preuaile not against the Priestes, that is, the Bishops, who succeede Peter. Then by his iudgement all the Roman Bishops are frée from all heresie. For the gates of hell are heresies, and the principall autours of heresies, as ccIn Anchora…Epiphanius witnesseth. Wherefore ifthe gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops p. 440of Rome: it foloweth (howsoeuer you auoide S. Ierom) that neither Arians, nor Donatistes, nor any other heresies doo preuaile against it.

Rainoldes.

Did preuaile against it in the time of Austin: so you should conclude. You hauehave a pretie policie in citing the testimonies and sayings of the Fathers touching the Church of Rome: that what they did speake ofthe time present then, you vse it as spoken of the time present now. There was a gentlewoman in Rome, named Fabia: ddFab. Quintilia…. lib. 6. cap. 4.who being waxed olde, yet willing still to séeme young, said, in Tullies hearing, that she was thirtie yeares of age. That must needes be true, quoth Tullie; for I hauehave heard it of you twentie yeares ago. The Church of Rome hath defiled her selfe with idolatrie, & gone a whoring from the Lord: yet she would séeme a maide still, and so shee saith her selfe to be. I thinke you iest not with her, as Tullie did with Fabia: yet you proue her maidenhead, as Tullie did the youth of Fabia. You say that it must néedes be true: for it is writen ofher twelue hundred yeares ago. But that you may sée how small cause you hauehave to build so much on those wordes, The gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome: consider what is meant by the gates of hell, and your graunt is past, that against some Bishops of Rome they hauehave preuailed. The state ofthe faithfull and chosen of God in this present life, is as it were ee2. Cor. 10.4.2 Cor 10:4a warfare: whereof the Church is called militant. The aduersaries and enimies whom we must fight against, our Sauiour speaketh of them as of a strong kingdome, which he calleth hell, because it warreth all for hel, and ffEphes. 6.11.Eph 6:11the deuil is prince of it. The gates of hell therefore doo signifie the ggforeign.holdes, the fortresses and munitions, wherewith the powers of hel doo fight against vsus and assault vsus: that is, euen whatsoeuer the deuill can doo by force or fraude. All the which is meant by the name of gates, because the gates of fortes are wont to hauehave the best munition, and to be fensed most strongly. So the gates of hell are not onelyonly heresies, (though heresies are of them, as hhIn Anchorat.Epiphanius, and iiDe symbol. ad Catechum. lib. 1. cap. 6.Austin note:) but also persecutions, and specially sinnes, and in a word all euils, sweete or sower, faire or foule, that séeke to subdue vsus to euerlasting death; as kkIn Matthaeum Tract. 1.Origen, llContra Gen…iles, quód Christus sit Deus.Chrysostom, mmIn quint. Psalmum poenitent.Gregorie, nnIn Matth. …6.Matt 6Theophylact, and ooH…eron. & Raban. cōment. in Mat. 16.Matt 16others well obserue. Now, ifyou apply this to the Bishops of Rome: you may sée your error. p. 441For it is confessed by your selfe and yours, that sinnes hauehave preuailed, and preuailed monstrously against sundry of them. Whereof it doth folow that against sundry of them who hauehave succéeded in the seate of Peter, the gates of hell hauehave preuailed. As for S. Austins iudgement, that heresies of the Arians, or Donatistes, or others did not preuaile against them: I know no cause to the contrarie but hee might iustly say so then. For though the Arian heresie did set vponupon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him, ppHieron. i… Chronic. Bus…b.when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it: yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall, and manfully qqSocrat. hist. eccles. lib. 4. c. 11. Sozomen. lib. 6. cap. 12.withstood it afterwarde, it cannot be saide to hauehave preuailed against him. Whether it preuailed or no against Felix, of whom rrHieron. de script. ec…les. verbo Acaciu…. Socrat. l. 2. c. 29some report that he was an Arian; ssTheodoret. histor. eccles. l. 2. cap. 17. Sozom. l. 4. c. 10.some, that he communicated only with the Arians: it is no matter to S. ttEpist. 165.Austin, who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops. Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him, because Felix dyed a martyr, as uuGenebrard. Chronogr. l. 3.he saith, & citeth Sozomen to proue it (but he belyeth Sozomen) to infer on that lye, y^t Peters chaire hath such a vertue, that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike, or a Pope that fauoured heretikes: yet xxOptat. Mileuit. contr. Donatist. lib. 2. Marcellin. Comes in Chronic.others (not séeing belike such a mystery in y^e death of Felix) are of S. Austins minde; euen your yyAnnot. in Plat. vit. Feli. secund.Onuph…ius also, who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome, nor his martyrdome. Now, the heresie ofthe Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them. For as zzEuseb. hist. ecclesiast. lib. 6. cap. 42. Cyprian▪ epist. ad Co…nelium, & Lucium▪they had before withstood the Nouatians, the coosin germans to the Donatists: so aaAugust. in breui. collat. cum Donatist. collat. diei tert. cap. …2. & epist. 162.did they withstand the Donatists them selues, both by their communion with the Catholikes, and by their doctrine. And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly, when he commended their succession. As it appeereth farther by bbEpist. 165.a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle: where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter, to Anastasius liuing then, he concludeth with these wordes: **In hoc ordi… ▪ successionis nullus Donatista episcopus inuenitur.in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist. Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth ccIrenae. aduers. haeres. l. 3. c. 3.against the heresies of Carpocrates, Valentinus, Marcion, ddTheodoret. hist. eccles. l. 50. c. 1….Sabellius, Macedonius, Photinus, Apollinaris, and the rest of those miscreants, who vndermined the foundation ofthe Christian faith, the doctrine ofthe blessed Trinitie: p. 442the reason will be manifest, why to moue the Donatists by y^e succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie, S. Austin gaue it this prayse, that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it.

Hart.

The ninth Diuision.Well. **S…aplet. lib. 4. cap. 5. & 19. & 20.The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion, of the true Church, and of the right faith. Neither onelyonly by S. Austin, but by the rest of the Fathers too. For eeHaeres. 27.Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians: & let no man maruaile (saith he) that we rehearse al thinges so exactly; for, that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed. And ffDe praescriptionib. aduers. haeret.Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they hauehave autority from the Church of Rome, doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes. And ggLib. 3. cap. 3.Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman. Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time, doth adde, that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians. And hhLibr. 2.Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists. As likewise S. iiEpist. 165.Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time, & that (he saith) much more surely and to the soules health in deed. Wherefore the Church of Rome, and we, who are of that Church, hauehave an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith. For we hauehave the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time: which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes; as the Fathers, Epiphanius, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Optatus, and Austin testifie.

Rainoldes.

You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome, as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia. The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith: for so it was in the time of Austin, Epiphanius, Optatus, Tertullian, & Irenaeus, twelue hundred yeares ago & vpwarde. Succession was a proofe of the true faith, till Bishops, who varied from the truth succéeded: euen as **Matt. 7.15.Matt 7:15sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it. But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing: nor the true faith by succession. The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone, but in all, while they who succéeded the Apostles in place, succéeded them in doctrine p. 443too, & kept that which kk2. Tim. 1.14.2 Tim 1:14Paule deliuered to Timothee & ll2. Tim. 2.2.2 Tim 2:2Timothee to others. But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours, and mmAct. 20.30.Acts 20:30that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus, of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them: then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith, for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth, but common to it with errour, and so a marke of neither, because a marke of both. This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former, the primitiue churches time and ours, is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage. For nnLib. 3. cap. 3. & lib. 4. c. 63.Irenaeus (to beginne with the most auncient of them) saith, that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered. Now it doth not so: nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died. Hath it?

Hart.

Not in all Churches. But in the Church of Rome it doth, and hath, and shall for euer.

Rainoldes.

But if you would say as much for al Churches, you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens, as you doo for the Church of Rome.

Hart.

I deny that. For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians.

Rainoldes.

D. ooPrincip. doctrin. lib. 4. c. 19.Stapleton told you so, and you beleeued it. I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie, or detest his impudencie, who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes; and that against his owne knowledge, vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe. For ppPrincip. doctrin. lib. 4. cap. 5.him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie: to wéete, we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches, & their successours vntill our time, qqIrenae. lib. 3. cap. 3.who taught not any such thing, and so foorth. But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches: we declare the faith of the greatest, the most auncient and famous Church of Rome. Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops. And againe: rr…ib. 4. ca…. 63.the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world, and p. 444the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vntounto whom they did commit the Church, which is in eueryevery place, which hath continued vntill our time, being kept, and so foorth. By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus, although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it would be tedious: yet he fetcheth the succession of true doctrine from all Churches, in eueryevery place, through the whole world. Or if it bée not plaine enough by these sentences, he maketh it more plaine in other: both by generall spéeches of Lib. 1. cap. 2. & 3. l. 3. c. 12. l. 5. …. 1. & 17.the Churche through al… the world, which hee repeateth often; and by the particular names of sundrie Churches, ttLib. 3. c. 3.the Churches of Smyrna, of Ephesus, of Asia, uuLib. 1. cap. 3.the Churches in Germany, in Spaine, in France, in the East countries, in Aegypt, in Liby…, in the middle of the worlde. Wherefore the successions of Bishops in all Churches were true and faithfull witnesses of the Apostolike doctrine in the time of Irenaeus. As xxHistor. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. 21.Eusebius also doth farther proue by Hegesippus, who liued at the same time, and trauailing to Rome ward, did talke with very many Bishops: of whom, euen of them al, he heard the same doctrin, accordingly to that he wrote, that in eueryevery succession, and in eueryevery citie, the doctrine is such as the Law, and the Prophets, and the Lord doth preach.

Hart.

Yet yyLib. 3. cap. 3.Irenaeus reckneth chiefely the succession of the Church of Rome, as of the greatest Church, and the most auncient and knowne vntounto all, founded and established by two the most excellent Apostles Peter and Paule.

Rainoldes.

No maruaile. For beside the credit that it had as being Apostolike, ample, famous, auncient: it was the néerest also in place (amongst all the Apostolike Churches) to Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in Fraunce; and so both known better and the more dealt with. In the which respect, other of the Fathers did chiefely name it too. As may appéere by zzDe praescriptionib. aduers. haeret.Tertullian the next of them whom you alleage. For he setting downe the same prescription against heretikes, which Irenaeus had before him, doth speake of it thus. Runne ouer the Apostolike Churches, at which the very chaires of the Apostles are sate on yet in their places: at which their authenticall letters are recited, sounding out the voyce and representing the face of eueryevery p. 445one of them. Is Achaia next vntounto thee? Thou hast Corinth. If thou be not farre from Macedonia, thou hast Philippi, thou hast the Thessalonians. If thou canst go into Asia, thou hast Ephesus. If thou lye neere to Italu, thou hast Rome: whence wee hauehave authoritie also. Whence we hauehave authoritie, saith Tertullian, in Afrike: for he was of the Church of Carthage. So aaOptat. episcopus Mileuitanus.Optatus was Bishop of Mileuis in Afrike. So bbAugust episcopus Hipponensis.Austin was Bishop of Hippon, in Afrike. Which if you consider, you may sée somwhat in it why Optatus and Austin should recken the succes…i…on of the Roman Church, rather then of others. Specially sith Austin ccDe vnitat. eccles. cap. 11. & 12.doth vrge against the Donatists not onelyonly that, but all Churches: and ddContr. liter. Petilian. lib. 2. cap. 51.with the chaire of the Church of Rome wherein Peter sate, and Anastasius sitteth now, he matcheth the chaire of the Church of Ierusalem, wherein Iames sate, and Iohn sitteth now. As for Epiphanius, whom of the East Church you ioyne to them of the West, as prouing the soundnes of faith in like sort by the Roman succession: you do him iniurie. For neither doth he mention it but to note the time in which an heresie did budde; and this is that 11foreign. Epiphan. haer· 27.manifest that is meant by him; (it is your Stapletons art to make it 22Manifestum in …ide. Stapl…ton lib. 4. cap. 5.manifest in faith:) and what he saith thereof, he boroweth it of eeLib. 1. cap. 24. & l. 3. c. 3. & 4.Irenaeus, and therefore reckneth fewe of the Bishops of Rome, whereas ffEpiph. haer. 66.he reckeneth all the Bishops of Ierusalem to like intent against the Manichees; so that Ierusalem (if we would toy as you doo) passeth Rome with him. But in a word to cut off your cauill of succession of Bishops in the Roman Church, whereby you would proue your faith to be sound, because the Fathers proued the faith in their time so: ggIrenaeus▪the eldest of the Fathers, whom you alleage, proued it by the succession of all Churches; hhTertullian▪the next, by the succession of all Apostolike Churches; iiAugustin.the yongest, by them all in effect, by some namely. Wherefore if the succession of the Church of Rome doo proue that the Romans hauehave hitherto continued in the true faith, because by that succession the Fathers proued the true faith: then also the succession of the East Churches, of Ephesus, Smyrna, Corinth, Philippi, and Thessalonica ▪ doo proue that they hauehave hithertoo continued in the true faith, because by their succession the Fathers proued the true faith. But kkAlfons. a Castr. aduers. haer. lib. 5. de. Deo, lib. 6▪ de Eucharistia. lib. 12. de Papa & purgatorio. Canus Locor. Theologic l. 4. c. 6. Sander. visib. monar. lib. 7. Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 3. & 4.your selues do write that the Greekes (of whom these East Churches are) hauehave failed in the faith, and yeelded vntounto sundry heresies. The spéeches p. 446therefore of the Fathers touching the succession of the Bishops of Rome, proue not, that the Romanes doo now professe the true faith.

Hart.

The line of succession of the Roman Bishops hath bene still recorded in stories, and continueth yet. We can recken them from Peter the Apostle to Gregorie who sitteth now. Not so the Gréeke Bishops, the Churches ofthe East. Nay, the line of succession hath béene broken off in the chiefe of them, as the Chronicles do witnesse, euen in Alexandria, Antioche, and Ierusalem.

Rainoldes.

What is this to the purpose; if some of their successions be not enrolled in stories: some y^t are enrolled were broken off a while by calamities that fell vponupon them? For although llI… Chronico.Eusebius recorded the successions but of foure Churches, in Metropoles prouinciarum.the mother-cities of the prouinces (as he calleth them,) Rome Alexandria, Antioche, and Ierusalem; and mmNiceph. epis…. Constantinop. chronolog. tripartit.Nicephorus added Constantinople to them: yet the Churches which I named had successions of Bishops too, as I shewed out of nnIren. l. 3. c. 3. Te… ▪ de praeser. Euseb. l. 4. c. 21.the Fathers. And in them, in which you note that succession hath discontinued, the faith had failed often, while the succession lasted: which is enough for my proofe. But if you thinke your Church sure by this prerogatiue, that the Roman Bishops succession lasteth still, and you can recken them from Peter the Apostle to Gregorie who sitteth now: what say you to the Church of Constantinople? In it there hauehave succeeded Bishops to this day: and they can recken them ooNicephor. Chronolog. tripartit.from Andrew the Apostle ppGenebrard. Chronogr. l. 4.to Ieremie who sitteth now. Yet, to say nothing of the old heresies from which the successors are free, though set abroch by their predecessors, as by qqSocrat. hist. eccles. lib. 2. cap. …5.Macedonius, rrLib. 7. cap. 33.Nestorius, and ssHistor. Miscell. Pauli Diac. lib. 18.Sergius: ttLeo nonus epist. ad Michael. cap. 9. Sigebert. in Chron.the whole line of them many ages togither hauehave denied y^e Roman Bishops supreme-headship, & claimed it to them selues, uuIn Censura ecclesiae orientalis, cap. 13.as Ieremie doth also now. Whereby either your reason of succession is stricken dead, or your supremacie of the Pope. For if succession be a proofe of truth and soundnes in faith: then your supremacie is condemned. If your supremacie be lawfull: then is not faith proued to bee sound by succession. To which of these yéelde you? To one you must of necessitie.

Hart.

In déede **Staplet. princip. doctrin. lib. 4. cap. 9.the succession of Bishops in place is no good argument, vnlesse it be ioyned with succession in doctrine. p. 447For Irenaeus saith, xxIrenae lib. 4. cap. 43. & 44.we must obey those priestes who with the succession of the Bishoply charge hauehave receiued the sure gift of the truth according to the will of God. Wherefore the succession of Constantinople, though they fetch it from the Apostles, yet proueth not the faith (which they professe) to be true, because they hauehave departed from the Apostles doctrine, in which they should succeede chiefely.

Rainoldes.

Now you say well. In déede the succession in place is nothing woorth: succession in doctrine is it which maketh all. But what meane you then to send vsus such yyBristow in his Demandes. …ishtons table commended by Bristow. Gen…brard in his Chronicles.bead-reales of your Bishops of Rome from Peter to Gregory, as vndoubted arguments of the Catholike faith: when we can send you as solemne a bead-roale of Constantinople from Andrew to Ieremie, and proue nothing by it? What trifling is this, to say first that succession of Bishops in place proueth truth of doctrine: and then to adde, that it doth so, if it hauehave succession in doctrine ioyned with it. In effect as if you said, that succession in place doth proue the doctrine to be true, if y^e doctrine be true: & a couple of eares doo proue a creature to be a man, if they be a mans eares. The Fathers alleaged succession in place, not with condition, if it had; but with a reason, y^t it had succession in doctrine. Proue me that you hauehave succession in doctrine: and then alleage vntounto me the Fathers for succession. For if as S. zzEpist. 165.Austin saide against the Donatists after he had reckened the Bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius, In the ranke of this succession, there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist; so you reckning them from Peter to Gregorie might say in like sort, In the rancke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that hath vsurped: then were your reason as fit against vsus for the supremacy of the Pope, as S. Austins was for the Church against the Donatists.

Hart.

I may say so in like sort. For S. Austin meant as well of this point as of all others, when he said of the succession of the Bishops of Rome, that the gates of hell preuailed not against it.

Rainoldes.

If this gate of hell preuailed not against them in S. Austins time: yet many thinges may happen betweene the cuppe and the lippe, (as the prouerbe is,) much more betwéene his time and ou…s. But S. Austin meant not to speake of vsurping in that against the Donatists: and if he had, he learned by p. 448experience afterwarde, that they could vsurpe, and would, if they were not curbed. For thrée of them, euen Zosimus, Boniface, and Caelestin did vsurpe ouer the Churches of Afrike while Austin was aliue yet: who with the whole Councell of abooue two hundred Bishops of that countrie, withstood their attempt as much as lay in him, and stayed their pride.

Hart.

Their pride? You slander those holy Bishops in saying so.

Rainoldes.

Which holy Bishops? of Afrike? Them selues Epist. Concil. African. ad Bonifacium & Caelestinum.in their epistles to the Bishops of Rome, doo note it with the same **foreign. In Latin some princes hauehave it typum, but it should be typhum.worde: and if they slandered them it was with a matter of truth. But of this, bbChapt. 9. Diuis. 3.hereafter, more conueniently. For the point in hand, it is sufficient that S. Austin applying that text to the Church of Rome, that the gates of hell preuailed not against it: spake of soundnes of doctrine, which the Donatists did faute in; not of soueraintie of power, wherof there was no question with them.

Hart.

**Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 15.Gregorie the great speaketh of soueraintie of power; and proueth by that same text ccGregor. in Psal. 5. paenitent. super ver…umillum, Tota die.Ps 5the Church of Rome to be the head of all Churches, because Christ committed specially this Church to S. Peter, saying, to thee wil I giuegive my Church.

Rainoldes.

By that same. How? Christ saith not to Peter, to thee will I giuegive my Church. He saith, vponupon this rocke will I builde my Church. And therein (if Gregories iudgement may rule you,) ddIn eund. psal. super versum illum▪ Initio tu Domine.the rocke is Christ him selfe, which Peter had his name of, and on which he saide he would build his Church: the Church is the holie Church, eeIn Canticum Canticor. cap. 4. & passim.(that is to say, the companie of Gods elect and chosen) which shall neuer fall away from the Catholike faith in this world, and in the world to come shall continue stedfast for euer with God. For the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it. There was some affection that troubled Gregories minde when he did chaunge that text, and (as it were) appropriate it to his Sée of Rome: and Stapletons heart was taken with some affection also, when he cited Gregorie to proue his purpose thence. For nether doth the title of the head of all Churches proue the Roman Papacie: neither doth Gregory, although he geue that title to the Church of Rome, yet proue it by that same text. The thing which he proueth, is, ffIn psalm. 5. paenit. supra versum illum Tota die.that the Emperour, who receyued money for ecclesiasticall liuinges and p. 449spoyled the Church with s…monie, ought not so to doo, chiefly in the Church of Rome. For hauing touched his gréedinesse of this filthie gaine, yea he hath (saith Gregorie) stretched out so farre the rashnesse of his furie, that he chalengeth to him selfe the head of all Churches, euen the Church of Rome, and vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer the ladie of nations. Which he did altogether forbidde to be doon, who specially committed this Church to S. Peter the Apostle, saying, To thee will I giuegive my Church. Wherein, that which Gregorie would say, is plaine enough, by the wordes that go before it. The maner of his saying and prouing it, is hard. For he saith of the Roman Church that the Emperour vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer it. Whereby a man would thinke hee meant to denye the ciuill rule and gouernment of Rome to the Emperour, as now the Popes doo. Then which he meant nothing lesse: for ggGregor. Registr. lib. 4. epist. 31. & 32. &c. passim.he acknowledged himselfe the Emperours subiect, & vsed him accordingly. But he meant by [the right of earthly power vsurped ouer the Church,] the right of dealing with Church-liuings after the maner of the world, in setting them to sale as men doo farmes and leases: which is prophane and detestable. Now Gregorie being grieued hhAnastas. bibliothecar. in vita Agathon. Sigtabert. in Chron. ad ann. Christ. 680.that the Emperour asked money euen of the Bishop of Rome himselfe, iiIohan. Diacon. in vit. Greg. lib. 1. cap. 40.whose election he confirmed with his royall assent: he thought good to amplifie the heinousnesse of the fact as most vnlawfull and wicked in the Church of Rome. And thereupon he saith that Christ did forbid it, who specially committed this Church to S. Peter, saying, To thee will I giuegive my Church. In the gospell we reade of Peter, kkLuk. 9.33.Luke 9:33that he knew not what he said, when he saide to Christ whom he beheld in glory, Maister it is good for vsus to be here, and let vsus make three tabernacles. Gregorie had a louing affection to Rome. Will you giuegive me leaue to thinke of him as of Peter, that he knew not what he said? For the wordes which he alleageth, are not the wordes of Christ, as you must néedes graunt. The thing he gathereth of them, is against the words of Christ: who generally committed llMatt. 28.19,Matt 28:19all Churches to Peter, (for he was an Apostle;) and, if any specially, it was mmGal. 2.8.Gal 2:8that of the Iewes, whereas nnRom. 11.1… ▪ & 1….16,Rom 11:1Rom 1:16the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles. Wherefore neither Gregorie did purpose to proue the supremacie of the Pope by Christes wordes to Peter: neither p. 450did Christ meane the Church of Rome specially, but generally the Catholike Church, euen all the chosen, when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not preuaile against it. And if, as ooPlutarch in Apoph…hegm. Reg. & Imperat.one appealed from king Philip to king Philip, from Philip halfe asléepe to Philip wel awaked, so I may appeale from Gregorie to Gregorie, from Gregorie somewhat troubled to Gregorie aduised better: himselfe will by and by giuegive iudgement of my side. For in the same treatise he doth ppSuper v…r…um …um. I…itio tu Domine.a litle after alleage the place rightly, and expound it soundly, of them alone, and all them, who are built on Christ firmely, and faithfully, and nothing shall remoue them from him. Which to be the natural sense of Christes wordes: it is apparant to the eye. For the gates of hell preuaile against them, who are adiudged to death eternal. But qqMatt. 24.51.Matt 24:51hypocrites and euill seruants are adiudged to it. The gates of hell therefore preuaile against such. Now such hauehave béene and may be the members, yea the heads of the Church of Rome. Then our Sauiour meant not that priuilege to them. OnelyOnly against the chosen and elect of God, the gates of hell preuaile not. For rrRom. 8.30.Rom 8:30whom he hath predestinate, them hath he also glorified. Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Sauiour meant it. And them he doth call in this place my Church; as in an other afterward to like effect, ssIoh. 10.28.John 10:28my sheepe. So what he meant there, by saying of his sheepe, to them I giuegive eternal life, and they shal neuer perish: the same he meant here, by saying of his Church, against it the gates of hel shall not preuaile. Which thing is so cléere out of all controuersie, that to passe ouer In Matthaeum cap. 16.Theophylact, and uuIn Matt. tracta…. 1.Origen, of whom the one writeth y^t eueryevery man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church, & the gates of hell shal not preuaile against him; the other, that these gates preuaile against all who are not of the Church, and he is neither the Church nor any part therof whom they preuaile against: Nicol. Liran. in Matt. cap. 16.Matt 16Lira, the meanest of a great many, doth thus expound the place, that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church by subuerting it from the true faith. Whereby (saith he) it is plaine that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour, or power ecclesiasticall or ciuill; for many Princes and 11Summi Ponti…ices.Popes hauehave beene found 22Apostatasse ….to hauehave reuolted from the faith: but the Church consisteth of them, in whom there is true knowlege and profession of the p. 451faith and truth.

Hart.

Howsoeuer Gregorie did either mistake the words of the scripture, or not apply them perhaps to the supremacie: yet is the supremacie proued by that title which he giueth the Church of Rome. For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches: why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops?

Rainoldes.

What force this reason hath, we shall see **Chapt. 8. Diuis. 5.anone. But first I must conclude that it is not proued by the holy scriptures: neither by these, which you hauehave alleaged out of the Fathers; nor by any other that you can alleage. And this hath heretofore bene y^e opinion of learned men amongst your selues: as i… appéereth by your yyMelchior Canus Locor. Theologi…. l. 6. c. 8.Canus. Who hauing examined the point with greater iudgement, then Stapletons are wont: doth graunt that it is not writen in the scriptures, that the Pope succeedeth Peter in the supremacie. But that which in Canus might perhaps hauehave séemed one Doctors priuate fansy, doth séeme to bée now resolued on by more, and is taught publikely. For your Roman reader, zzRobert… Bellarmini Lectiones, de Pontifice (controu. 4. quaest. 5.) finitae 26. Maii, anno Dom. 1578. Romae.the Iesuit, Father Robert, in his lectures of the Pope, which for their excellencie are set downe in writing, and sent abroad as great iewels: doth not onelyonly teach the same, but also proue it. And whereas Canus thought, that to conuey Peters right vntounto the Pope, the stories hauehave sufficient ground, which say that Peter set his chaire at Rome, and there died; or, if learned men shall not allow of that, an other ground may be, yyLicet Romanos episcopos Petro succedere in sacris libris non habeatur scriptum: ab Apostolis tamen eccle…iae quasi per manus traditum est.that the Church receiued it though not by scripture, yet by tradition: Father Robert putting the matter out of controuersie, defineth zzRomanum Pontificem esse Petri successorem in Pontificatut otius orbis, habetu… ex traditione apostolica Petri.that in déede it is a tradition, not of Christ, but of the Apostles: and least we should doubt of which of the Apostles, he nameth the man, Peter, euen a tradition of Peter. Let me intreate you, M. Hart, if all that I hauehave said, cannot preuaile with you, yet to regard the doctrine, the doctrine taught at Rome, of your owne, of the chiefest of your owne Doctors. Renounce the vnlearned folies of your Stapleton, & brainsicke furies of your Rhemists: who with desperate violence doo wrest the word of Christ, to make it serue the pride of Antichrist. Acknowlege that you hauehave not one text through all the scripture to proue the Popes supremacie: that when you tell men of Thou art Peter, and on this rocke, &, I hauehave prayed for the Peter, and, Peter, feede my sheepe; you do presume of their simplicitie: p. 452that in truth these places doo not import it, but policie would hauehave somewhat saide, eis not so many would beleeue it: finally, that the Papacie is a deuise of Popes and Papists; for which, sith the scriptures can be abused no longer, because men hauehave espied the fraude, therefore a new cloake is found for it now, and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter.