Conference Between Rainolds and Hart — John Rainolds

Conference Between Rainolds and Hart · John Rainolds

Christe Iesu,

per Thomae vulnera,

Quae nos ligant.

relaxa scelera.

By Thomas woundes,

O Christ Iesus,

Loose thou the sinnes▪

which do binde vsus.

Or, if you will hauehave better ryme, with as bad reason:

Tu per Thomae sanguinem

quem pro te impendit,

Fac nos Christe scandere

quo Thomas a…cendit.

By the blood of Thomas

which he for thee did spend,

Make vsus O Christ to clime

whether he did a…end.

Hart.

This is your common obiection against our prayers to Saintes: but an obiection for a Cobler, and not for a Diuine, as D. dIn his De…. l 5. c. 10.Harding told Iewell. For Christ, in this prayer, is vsed as the onelyonly mediator of salua…ion: S. Thomas, a mediator of intercession to Christ.

Rainoldes.

Good words, M. Hart. Your plaister, of mediators of intercession and saluation, is too narrow for this soare. Your pang doth make you not to sée it.

Hart.

Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we giuegive to Saintes, is so farre inferiour to the diuine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for vsus, we say not so to him, we doo not thinke of him so basely, but wée desire him to hauehave mercy vponupon vsus. Wherefore, we make him onelyonly mediatour of saluation; and them, of intercession.

Rainoldes.

Yet is your plaister too narrow for the soare which you apply it too. For the blood and woundes of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spake off. And although you thinke not of intercession generally, as eHebr. 7.25.the scripture doth, which maketh it proper to f1. Tim. 2.5.the only mediatour betweene God and man, the man Christ Iesus: yet (I hope) you thinke of that intercession by the blood and woundes, that it is his alone, who gaue him selfe a raunsome for vsus, and g1. Pet. 1.1….redeemed vsus with his pretious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might bée made a mediatour of intercession in this preeminent sort: that can not heale your Portesse. For it doth make him …latly a mediatour of saluation: not onelyonly to pray for vsus, but to hauehave mercy vponupon vsus.

Op… nobis

ô Thoma porrige:

Rege stantes,

iacentes erige:

Mores, actus,

& vitam corrig…:

Et in paci…

nos viam dirige.

Salue Thoma,

virga iustitiae,

Mundi iubar,

robur ecclesiae,

Plebis amor,

cleri deliciae:

Salue gregis

tutor egregie,

Salua tuae

gaudentes gloriae.

*This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace therof is halfe lost for lacke of …yme: which in the Latin is very good.O Thomas reach

thy helpe to vsus:

Stay them that stand,

raise them that lie:

Correct our maners,

deedes & life:

Guide vsus into

the way of peace.

All haile ô Thom,

the rodde of right,

The worldes light,

the churches strength,

The peoples louelove,

the clergies ioye:

All haile braue patrone

of the flocke,

Saue them who in

thine honour glee.

This praier, which giueth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your hBre…iarium Roman. … decret. Sacrosanct concil. Trid. …estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint.reformed Portesse: iSabbato in hebdomada quarta Quadragesimae.where yet there is a prayer which giueth as great honour to an other creature, euen to a woodden crosse.

O …rux, …e, ipes vnica,

Ho… passionis tempore,

Auge piis iustitiam,

Reisque dona veniam.

All haile ô crosse, our onelyonly hope,

In this time of the passion,

Encrease thou iustice to the godly,

And giuegive to sinners pardon.

Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why hauehave you retained this, to the crosse, and not the other to S. Thomas.

Hart.

Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterburie were in the Roman Portesse, before they reformed it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the vse of Sarum.

Rainoldes.

Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacie. But whether it were or no: there were other thinges 1In cer…a.vncertaine and 2Aliena.inconuenient, which the reformers hauehave left out, as kPope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breuiar. reformat.the Pope confesseth. Who lPraefat. offic. Beat. Mar. virg. nuper reformat.confesseth also, that almost al Primers, yea the Latin too, 3Vanis superstitionum …rr…ibus referta.were stuffed full with vaine errours of superstitions, before he reformed it. Wherefore sith you hauehave left out other superstitious & inconuenient things, in your reformed Seruice-bookes: why hauehave you retained this prayer to the crosse, which might hauehave gone with the rest?

Hart.

The other were a…olished iustly, as vnfit. But this is …ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the crosse, of which S. mGal. 6▪ …4.Paule saith, God forbid that I should reioyce but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ?

Rainoldes.

That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paule doth meane it: not in the 1Regnauit a ligno De…s.wood, the 2Suspensus est paribulo.galowes, the 3Arbor decora & fulgid…, Or na… …egis purpura. Electa digno …pite … sancta membra tangere:tree, 4Be…ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam…ue tulit Tartari, O crux, …ue spes vnica, & quae sequūtur.to which you make your prayer. For God forbidde that wee should reioyce in any thing, sauing n1. Cor. 1.31.in the Lord: whose redéeming of vsus by suffering death vponupon the crosse, because it was a stumbling blocke to the Iewes; S. Paule saith oGal. 5.11. foreign.the crosse was a stumbling blocke, by a *foreign.figuratiue spéech, meaning (as him selfe doth open it) p1. Cor. 1.23. foreign.Christ crucified. And so he calleth Christes blood, qCol. 1.20.the blood of the crosse; and the preaching of his gospell, r1. Cor. 1.18.the preaching of the crosse; and persecution rising of it, sGal. 6.12.persecution for the crosse: and against them who reioyced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he reioyceth not but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reformed your Seruice-bookes, thought, that of the prayers which we doo mislike they might abolish some and retaine others: what if amongst the feastes which others doo mislike, they, who reformed our ceremonies, retained the annuntiation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, natiuitie, and assumption? Chiefly séeing that in those, which they reteined, they regarded the honour of Christ conceiued and presented, as your selues acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they remoued the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feastes instituted to a Saintes honour, as they were indéede: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that wherof the memorie was celebrated in them: and they maintaine corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christes honour. For tThom. Aquin. Summ. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 27. art. …. Sixtus Papa quartus c. cúm praeexcelsa. Extrauag. de reliquiis & veneratione Sanctorū.you meane by the feastes of her natiuity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceiued in sinne. Which if it were so▪ then neither she néeded Christ to be uLuk. 1.47.her Sauiour, who came to saue sinners: & the prerogatiue of Christ, yHeb. 7.2….to be seuered from sinners, were common vntounto her with him.x1. Tim. 1.15. A thing so absurd and contrarie to the scriptures, (which shew that zRom. 5.12.all hauehave sinned, and aEph. 2.3.are the children of wrath by nature,) that not bAmbros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psal…. 1.11…. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. concion. 2. & contr. Iu…ian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. iustit. c. 21. Leo de natiuit. …om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Beda l. 1 … Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. … 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174.the Fathers onelyonly, but your chiefe cThom. Aquin. part. 3. quaest. 27. art. …. Bonau. in 3. S…t. dist. 3. art. 1. quaest. 2. Anton. Summ. part. 1. tit. 8. c. 2.Schoole-men, and dDe consecr. dist. 4. c. Firmi…sun… ▪Canons also, doo gainesay it. Yea the feast of her conception, when it was créeping in, was therefore eBernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Beleth. in explicat. diuin. offic. c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7.reproued: and the very glose of your fDe consecrat. …istinct. 3. c. pronuntiandum.Canon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for kéeping it. But the conception and natiuitie of the blessed virgin make her scarse equall vntounto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somwhat higher. For when Christ was taken vp into heauen: gLuk. 24.30. Act. 1.12.the Apostles were lead forth a litleway on foote, to sée it and witnes it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in cloudes, as in chariots, from all the coastes of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and cal againe, a fable, or if you will, a lye, as hRetract. in Act. Apost. c. 8.Bede doth: though your Diuines of Rhemes doo vouch it as a true storie.

Hart.

It is a true storie, as our Diuines of Rhemes doo …ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lye. For iMelito de transitu S. Mariae.he reported it to hauehave béene doon the second yeare after Christes ascension▪ which Bede doth proue it could not be. But our Diuines referre it to the fifteenth yeare after. For they take the common opinion that she liued three score and three yeares in all. Now, kNicephor. hist. eccle. l. 2. c. …shee brought forth Christ when she was fifteene yeare olde. So that her assumption was eight and fortie yeares after Christs natiuitie. And this agréeth with lIn chronico.Eusebius, who saith y^t some do write it was reueled to them that she was assumpted the eight and forteeth yeare of Christ: which was fifteene yeares after his ascension.

Rainoldes.

Then you graunt that they, who say it was the second yeare after, doo lye.

Hart.

I graunt. For that circumstance can not stand with scripture: as venerable Bede doth proue.

Rainoldes.

Then a mBeata Elisabet. Antonin. hist part. 1. tit. 6. c. 3.holy nunne did lye, or an angel, nVincent. speculi hist. lib. 1. cap. 80.or a deuill that appéered in the likenes of the virgin, and tolde her that tale.

Hart.

What if some were deceiued in circumstance of time. Yet the storie notwithstanding of her assumption is true, as our Diuines of Rhemes report it. For *Rhem. Annot. vponupon Act. 1.14.at the time of her death, (as S. oDionys. epist. ad Timotheum.Denys first, and after him S. pDe dormition. Deiparae.Damascene writeth,) al the Apostles, then dispersed into diuers nations to preach the gospell, were miraculously brought togither, (sauing S. Thomas who came the third day after,) to Ierusalem, to honour her diuine departure and funerall, as the said S. Denys writeth. Who saith, that him self, S. Timothee, and S. Hierotheus were present: testifying also of his owne hearing, that, both before her death and after for three daies, not onelyonly the Apostles and other holy men present, but the Angels also and powers of heauen did sing most melodious hymnes. They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani. But for S. Thomas sake, who desired to sée and to reuerence it, they opened the sepucher the third day: and finding it voide of the holy body, but excéedingly fragrant, they returned, assuredly déeming that her body was assumpted into heauen. As the Church of God holdeth, being most agréeable to the singular priuilege of the mother of God: and therefore celebrateth most solemnely the day of her assumption. And it is consonant not onelie to the said S. Denys, & S. Damascene, but to S. qSerm. in Euan. de Deipara.Athanasius also, who auoucheth the same. Of which assumption of her bodie S. Bernard also wrote fiue notable sermons, extant in his workes.

Rainoldes.

But in all those fiue sermons of S. Bernard, there is not one worde of your miraculous fable. As litle, in S. Athanasius: beside that, the sermon, which you alleage as his, is in rIn edit. Petri Nannij Louan. prae…at. ad Episcopum Atrebat.your own edition reiected for a bastard. In Damascene there is more: yet not so much neither, as here sBreuiar. Romanum in Festis August. quarto di… infra octauam assump…. Beat. Mariae.your Portesse hath. But he is *About the yeare of Christ 740.too late & too weake a witnes, to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him. The best, or rather all your proofe, is S. Denys: whom you belye notablie. For where saith he that which you doo father on him?

Hart.

Where? oDionys. epist. ad Timotheum.in an epistle of his to S. Timothee.

Rainoldes.

He wrote no such epistle. Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse, whence this stuffe is borowed. For reading there, that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee, they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee. The place, which they meant, is in a tDionys. ad Timotheum de diuin. nomin. cap. 3.booke entitled of the names of God: pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys.

Hart.

In a booke, or an epistle; it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying.

Rainoldes.

I doo not therefore charge them with it. Neither would I mention this, but to point you the place in which they lye. For they say that S. Denys writeth these & these things: where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys, neither writeth he the thinges which they alleage. Touching the thinges, first, he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierothe…s excelled all the rest (saue the Apostles) in praysing Christes goodnesse, when him selfe, and Timothee, and many of their holy brethren, *foreign.came together to behold the body which receyued God, and which the Prince of life was in. As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together, S. Thomas comming the thirde day after, the Angels singing hymnes three dayes, the buriall of the virgins body, the desire of Thomas to see it, the sepulcher opened for his sake, and the body assumpted into heauen: he saith not one worde of these conceites, not one word. Nay he rather saith against them. For he noteth namely that Iames was also present the brother of the Lord, and Peter the chiefe and ancientest toppe of the Apostles. Which it is not likelie he would so note of two Apostles, if they had all béene present. Much lesse is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle, if any such had happened.

Hart.

Perhaps it is writen in some other parte of S. Denys workes.

Rainoldes.

In no part at all of anie worke that beareth the name of S. Denys.

Hart.

Not that is extant now. But he wrote manie more▪ as uHistor. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 20.Nicephorus sheweth: and xDe dormition. Deiparae.Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee.

Rainoldes.

Nay, that which Damascene mentioneth is yDe diuinis nominibus ad Timotheum.the booke I spake of: whence all, that he citeth, is taken word for word. Yea Nicephorus also zHistor. eccle. lib. 2. cap. 22.doth alleage the same, (quoting *In tertio capite ad Timotheum.the very chapter) as the onelyonly place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proued by S. Denys. The more doo I maruell what should moue your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together, to honour her diuine departure; yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing, that both before her death and after, for three dayes, the Angels did sing most melodious hymnes: vnlesse they were disposed to lye for the whetstone. But this, of the thinges. The other, of the autour, is not so great a faute: yet a faute too. For they would hauehave men thinke that he who wrote this worke 1De diuinis nominibus.of the names of God, & others2De coelesti & ecclesiastica hierarchia. of the heauenly & *That is, the holy gouernement of the Church.ecclesiastical hierarchie, (as he termeth it,) was aDionysius Areopagita.the famous Denys, bAct. 17.34.the scholer of S. Paul. Wheras it was a counterfeit, who tooke that Denys name vponupon him.

Hart.

It was that famous Denys in déed cAs the Rhe…ts say in their Annota…ions on Act. 17.…4.who wrote those notable and diuine workes, and others: in which he confirmeth and proueth plainely almost all thinges that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy sacraments; and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles: giuing also testimonie for the Catholike faith in most thinges now controuersed, so plainely, that your men hauehave no shift but to deny that Denys to hauehave béene the autour of them, feyning that they be an others of later age. Which is an old sleight of heretikes: but most proper to you of al others. Who séeing al antiquitie against you are forced to be more bold, or rather impudent, thē others in that point.

Rainoldes.

These flowers of your Seminarie, that wee are heretikes, bold, impudent; that all antiquitie is against vsus: you may spare them, for they are stale; they hauehave béene dipt in gall & lye. You say y^t he proueth plainely almost al things that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments. If you meane by the Church, not our Church, but yours: that [almost] must hauehave fauor, or els without almost you lauish. For though he hauehave more thinges, then either the Church of the Apostles had, or ours doth allow: yet neither all that you hauehave, & many that you hauehave not, and some cleane contrarie to yours. As namely, in the sacrament of the Lords supper, wherin you varie from vsus most: …he neither hath your stage-like gestures & toyes, nor inuocation of Saintes, nor adoration of creatures, nor sacrificing of Christ to God, nor praying for the soules in Purgatorie, nor sole receyuing of the Priest, nor ministring vnderunder on… kind to them who receiue, nor exhortations, lessons, prayers in a tongue which the people doth not vnderstand. So that in thing… of substance, and not of ceremonie only, he differeth as farre from your blasphemous Masse, as he is néere to our Communion. But the thinges which he hath, you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles. He doth so, I graunt: as it was fit for him, eDe diuin. nomin. cap. 2. & 3.who would be counted that Denys which was conuerted by S. Paul. But, as it happeneth vntounto counterfeites, he hath forgot himselfe in one place, and so betrayed the feate. For, fEcclesiast. hierarch. cap. 7.speaking of infants, why they are baptized: hereof (saith he) we say those thinges, which our diuine maisters 1foreign.being instructed by the old tradition, hauehave brought vntounto vsus. By the which words, the man at vnawares hath shewed that he learned not not of the Apostles. For Christ him selfe instructed the Apostles of baptisme: they had it not from old tradition.

Hart.

That is a weake coniecture why he should be a counterfeit. For he might call the tradition of the Apostles, old tradition: though it were but certain yeares or moneths before him.

Rainoldes.

Hardly: if he liued in the same time with them. But if he might; yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles. Belike his maisters were younger men.

Hart.

Our coniectures may deceiue vsus: we must not trust them in such matters. The Fathers count him the right Denys. For, gOrat. in Natiuitat. Christi.Gregorie Nazianzen, hHomil. 2. i… ter homil. in varios locos noui Testament.Origen, iAd Sergium Pat…iar. Constā tinop.Sophronius, kAd Constantin. Heracl. & Tiber. August.Agatho, lDe orthod. fid. lib. 1. cap. 12. & lib. 2. cap. 18.Damascene, mIn Panoplia part. 1. tit. 2.Euthymius, and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita, when they cite thinges that are in him.

Rainoldes.

Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a 2foreign.certain autour, whom he nameth not. It is but nBudae. in cō mentar. linguae Graec.one mans ghesse, that he meaneth Denys. An oNicet. comment in Grego. Nazianzen.other saith, (which is *Gregor. Nazianz. orat. in laudem Athan.more likely,) that he meaneth Athanasius. Origen is auncient: if he had cited Denys, Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two, then I doo iudge him by his countenance. But that worke of Origen, in which you finde him cited, can not bee Origens. For in it the Manichees are mentioned, and Arians: the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead. So that, when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys: a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe. The rest, whom you alleage, Sophronius, Agatho, Damascene, and Euthymius, are of later yeares, and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so. Many honest men pPolyd▪ Virgil. hist. Ang. lib. …did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke, King Edward the fourthes sonne, as he professed him selfe to bee: though in déed he was a counterfeite.

Hart

If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit, against so great consent of writers: any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall.

Rainoldes.

If you may allow a counterfeit, as lawfull, because that many thinke well of him: euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke.

Hart.

Nay, there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke. For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper, ten yeares before men heard of Perkin.

Rainoldes.

There is surer proofe, that he, whose cause you pleade, cannot be Dionysius Areopagita.

Hart.

What? Such as qAnnot in c. 17. A…t Apost.Erasmus and qAnnot in c. 17. A…t Apost.Valla bring, that Ierom and others do not mention him?

Rainoldes.

That, as light as you make it, did moue Cardinall qAnnot in c. 17. A…t Apost.Caietan to dout of the man. But the proofe that I meant, is such as yours against Perkin: to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares, before the workes, which beare his name, could be writen. For there is cited in rDe diuin. nomin…b. cap. 4.them a saying of Ignatius, out of an epistle which he wrote (to the Romans) as he was going to suffer martyrdome sEusebius in Chronico.in the time of Traian the Emperour. Now Dionysius died tMethodius in martyrio Dionys. A…eopag.in the time of Domitian, certaine yeares before. And uIgnat. epist. ad Ephesios.when Ignatius wrote it, Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus, who succéeded Timothee. Your xDionys. Areop. episcopus Athenarum ad Timotheum episcopum Ephesi.counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus, either after his decease, or before it was writen. Moreouer, the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier, both in such places, and with such simplicitie, as yAct. 1.13. & 12.12. & 20.8.the Apostles did, and times of persecution suffered. But when your counterfeit wrote, they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes: & the zforeign. Dionys. epist. ad Demophilum.Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church, that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto, much lesse for other lay-men. Againe aDionys eccl… siast. hietarc. c. 6.the moonkes also were risen when he wrote, and they of credit in the Churches, and many ceremonies to hallow them. Which in the time of the Apostles, when Dionysius liued, were not heard of yet: for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie.

Hart.

What? not moonkes? Why, Philo maketh mention of them, as bHist. eccles. l. 2. c. 17.Eusebius sheweth. And cEusebius in Chronico.Philo did florish vnderunder Caius the Emperour, euen in the prime of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

That, which Philo writeth, he writeth not of Christian moonkes, but Iewish Essees, as dforeign. De vita contemplatiu. &, Quód quisque probus, liber.him selfe sheweth. Eusebius was deceiued. And if you thinke that you hauehave mee at an aduantage, in that I do denie Eusebius: I shal hauehave you at the same; vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account, euen Thomas of Aquine. For eThom. Aquin. quodlib. 7. art. …7. resp. ad 4. argumentum.he saith ofthe same time of which Philo wrote, that there was not then Aliqui religio… determinati.any certaine sort of religious men. But, to leaue the proofes which touch other matters, or stand on mens coniectures, or you may hauehave some colour of exception against: I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him; and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures; and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues. You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin. Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither, and many of their holy brethren, to behold her body. The scriptures shew that fAct 9.5.Paule was not conuerted to Christ, till after Christes ascension. When he was conuerted, gGal. 1.18.he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia, before hAct. 9.26.he came to Ierusalem. Thence iGal. 1.21.he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia, kAct 13.4.and the countries there about. And lGal. 2 1.foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem, with Barnabas, mAct. 15.4.to the Councell. From the Councell nAct. 16.1.he went to Derbe, and Lystrae: where he receiued Timothee. And hauing trauailed through Phrygia, Galatia, Mysia, Macedonia, he came at last to Athens, where oAct. 17.34.he conuerted Denys the Areopagite. So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension, before S. Denys knew Christ. New, the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension, as your Rhemists put: who yet take the largest time ofher life; for pMarian. Scotu… Chron. l. 2. Nicephorus hist. ecclesiast. l. 2. c. 3. ex …uodio.other stories make it shorter. S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall. And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists: though they thought not ofit. For, in their qAfter the Actes of the Apostles.table of S. Paule, they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ, when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite; and in their rAnnot. vponupon the Act. 1.14.tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight & fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vsus great iniurie, to say, that we deny S. Denys to hauehave writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed. For, that which we deny, is, in respect of the truth, because indéede he wrote them not. But, in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith, I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them. He is so plaine against the most of your heresies: chiefly the Popes supremacie.

Hart.

Neither is that an heresie, nor is he against it: nay hée is plaine for it. For sDionys. de di…sin. nom. c. 3.he saith (as your selfe rehearsed out of him) that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

But he saith farther, that, tEccles. hierar. cap. 7.for as much as the scriptures say to Peter, Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen, *foreign.therefore he, and (accordingly to him) eueryevery Bishop doth admit the godly, and disinherite the godlesse, by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God. And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes. For your uFrancis. Sansouin. de regnis & rebusp. l. 11. Sander. de visib. monar. eccles. lib. 7.maisters ground it on that charge of binding and loosing giuen Peter: as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope. Denys saith the contrarie, that it is common to all Bishops. Whereby you may perceiue beside, that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie, though xChapt. 5. Diuis. 3.I hauehave shewed it doth not, but if it did: yet your commō reason, from Peters supremacie to the Popes, is iointlesse. For he, who calleth Peter, chiefe of the Apostles, yet maketh Bishops equal; and giueth Rome no greater priuilege, then Antioche, or Ierusalem. But to knit vp that which brought vsus vntounto this of Denys: you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures. Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers. That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things, in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures.

Hart.

I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it. For the Church doth holde it: I meane the Catholike Church of Rome.

Rainoldes.

In that your Rhemists lauish too. For though the lying Greekes (as your yPraefat. in Censuram D. H…ssels de historiis Sanctorum.Molanus calleth them,) zSimeon Metaphrastes, de vita & dormit. S. Mariae. Nicephorus, hist. eccles. l. 2. c. 21.22. & 23. Michael Synge…us in Dionysii en com…o.doo vouch it very boldly: yet aAdo Treuir. in Martyrolog. Fulbert. Serm. 83. in append. D. August. Tom. 30. Beleth. in explicat. diuinor. officior. cap. 146.the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine. Yea the verie bVsuard. Martyrolog. Aug. 15.Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth, that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death: but where it hath pleased God to hide her body, 1Sobrietas ecclesiae.the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously, then to holde and teach 2Friuolum & apocryphum.some friuolous thing & forged. How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor, first, of cRichard Bristow. Motiu. 32.a Papist, who saith y^t it is certaine she was assumpted by death, not onelyonly in soule, but in body also: then, of dPius the fifth. in praefat. Bre…ar-Roman.the Pope, who, setting foorth his new Portesse, saith that those things which are vncertaine, are put out: where this is left in, which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine. But your Rhemists passe. Who, as though the Por…esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene, eFor Damascene saith, The Angels soong almost three dayes: the Portesse, three whole dayes. Damascen, The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them (who was absent) the body: the Portesse, Thomas (who was absent) would worship the body.though it mende his tale with more then one lye: they take that which their Portesse doth tell them, lye and al, and father it vponupon S. Denys, that it may hauehave the greater credit.

Hart.

Our Rhemists will render good account (I dout not) of this which they hauehave writen, when they shall heare what is said against it. And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion, which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his presēce at the departure of our Lady: I must referre to them. For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it. But why do you presse that point about the Fathers, touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes, or meaning, or consequent of the scriptures? We are past the scriptures, and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them.

Rainoldes.

But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures, and ouershoote them selues in the word of God: they may be deceiued in the word of man too, and either not conceiue well, or not remember well, or not conclude well of it. Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point, that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius. For fHieron. de scriptorib. ecclesiast. verbo Philo.he, reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers, doth it (he saith) for this reason, because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria, hath praised the Christians: reporting them to be not onelyonly there but in many countries, and calling their dwelling places, Monasteries. Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ, at the first, was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now, that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie, none is rich amongst them, none poore, their patrimonies are distributed to the needy, they giuegive them selues wholy to prayer, and to singing of Psalmes, and to learning, and to continencie of life: such as S. gAct. 4.32.Luke also doth write, that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem. And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men, that is, of men Apostolike, is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray, because they did contemplate (studie, and meditate) heauenly things, and prayed to God alwayes. Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein, that the pointes of contemplation and prayer, being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church, did make him to mistake the one for the other, as likenes (they say) is the mother of error: but, that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke, it may appeere by foure circumstances, of names, of deedes, of times, and of places. For they, of whom Philo doth write, were called Essees: which was a sect of Iewes, of whom 1Philo in libr. quód quisque p…obus sit liber.some liued in action, and 2Philo de vita contemplatiua.some in contemplation. The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees, either contemplatiue or actiue. Againe, they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes, or daughters, or kinsemen, or if they had no kinsemen, to their friendes. The Christians gaue them to the poore, and such as stood in need of succour. Moreouer y^e solemne day, which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught, was the seuenth day of the weeke: which was the Sabbat of the Iewes, the saterday as we cal it. The Christians were wont to meete on hAct. 20.7. Cor. 16.2.the first day of the weeke, that is,iIustin. mart. apolog. 2. ad Antoninum. sonday, kRe…. 1.10.the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it. Finally, they, whom Philo discourseth of, did liue in no towne or citie, but without, in gardens and solitarie places. The Christians liued in cities. Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom, I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria, were planted lforeign. Euseb. l. 2. c. 15.in the citie Alexandria it selfe; whereas it is precisely noted by Philo, that his Iewish moonkes did dwell mforeign.about it, and nforeignwithout it. Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake, or had forgot, the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them: yet he thereof inferred amisse, that the moonkes in his time were such, as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem. For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed: as oAct. 5.4.Peter saith to Ananias; while it remained, perteined it not to thee? And when it was sold, was it not in thine own power? But pEpist. 1. ad Heliodorum.Ierom saith that his moonks may not hauehave proprietie in any thing of their owne. Beside, the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie. The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues, & vsed them: for any thing y^t S. Luke sheweth. Though▪ by the way to note y^e difference betwéene y^e Iewish moonkes & the Christian, (who els would be too like:) qAthanas. in epistola ad Dracontium.some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues & did beget childrē; which I hauehave not read that anie of the Iewish did. Last of all, the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane (as he must néedes by Philo) were rforeign. Hieron. epist. 1. ad Heliodor. & 13. ad Paulin.moonkes according to their name, that is, *Eremitae, and not coenobitae.solitarie, and not collegiate moonkes. But the beléeuers at Ierusalem, were at Ierusalem, in a citie, and liued in fellowship together. Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth: and therefore Ierom was deceiued?

Hart.

I will not beléeue on your worde, that so worthie a Father was deceiued.

Rainoldes.

If you will not on my worde, I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it. For, sEpist. 13. ad Paulin. de institut. monachi.writing to Paulinus, touching the training vp of moonkes, he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow: but S. Antonie, and others, who dwelt in fieldes and deserts.

Hart.

He saith, that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes, and Bishops, not to moonkes. True: in some respectes. And yet, me thinkes too. But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so, through ouersight?

Rainoldes.

If they might be deceiued so through ouersight: they might be deceiued through affection also. For they were men, and subiect to it. As tEpist. 73. ad Iubaian.Cyprian, through too much hatred of heretikes, condemned the baptisme of heretikes, as vnlawfull: wherein uConcil. Carthagin. episcopor. 87. sub Cypriano.a Councell erred with him. As xAugustin▪ de ciuitat. Dei, lib. 21. cap. 17.Origen, through too much compassion of the wicked, thought that the diuels them …elues should be saued at length. As yHieron. in Catalog. script. eccles. verbo▪ Tertullianus.Tertullian, through spite of the Roman clergie, reuolted to the Montanists: and zTertul. de monogam. de ieiunio aduersus. Psychicos.called the Catholikes, carnall men, because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting.

Hart.

We condemne these errours in them, as well as you: and doo therein except against them.

Rainoldes.

You doo except also, I trow, (I am sure, aCanus loco…. Theolog. lib. 11. cap. 2. D. Hessels Censur. de hist. Sanctor. cap. 3.your Doctors doo) against bSermon. de defunctis in fid▪Damascene, for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour; that Gregorie, while he went ouer the market place of Traian, did pray for Traians soule to God; and behold, a voyce from heauen, I hauehave heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian: but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked. A verie great affection to prayers for the dead, that moued Damascene to write this. For it is against the doctrine of the cPetr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. dist…act. 45. Thomas, Scotus, Bonauent. & caeteri scholast. in eas distinct.Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell. In Purgatorie they say they may.

Hart.

dIn 4. Sentent. dist. 45. quaest. 2.S. Thomas doth confirme the same. Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene. But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege, which doth not breake the common law.

Rainoldes.

But your eLocor. Theologic. l. 11. c. 2.Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then: beside that, he was greatly affected to Damascen. And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer: he doth affirme so lustily that *foreign.all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true. Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at: sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story. But fLocor. Theol. lib. 11. cap 6.Canus (as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are, y^e most of them,) did wisely sée & noteth fréely, that not onelyonly later and lesse discreete autours (as he who made the golden legend,) but also graue, ancient, learned, holy Fathers hauehave ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes: partly while they fetched the truth, where it is seldom, 1Ex dissipatis peruagatisque rumoribus.from common rumors and reportes; partly while 2Indulserunt fidelium vulgo.they sought to please the peoples humor, and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which cōmonly are counted true. Of this sorte he nameth 3Gregorius in Dialogis.Gregorie and 4Beda in historia Anglorum.Bede: the one for his Dialogues, the other for his English story. He might hauehave named Damascene with them. Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onelyonly take by heare-say of others, but coyned lyes themselues too: & wrote those thinges of Saintes 5Quae animus scribentis dictat.which their fansie liked, though neither true nor likely. As that S. Frauncis 6Pediculos semel excussos in seipsum soli…itum esse immittere.was wont to take lise that were shaken off, and put them on himselfe, it was a lowsie tricke, and S. Frauncis did it not: but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse. Likewise, that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike, S. Dominike constrained 7Diabolum, vt haberet lucernam in manibushim to hold a candle in his handes, till the candle being spent did put him to great grief, in burning his fingers. Such examples there are innumerable: but these two may giuegive a taste of their affection who hauehave defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables. Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice. And gLocor. Theolog. l. 11. c. 5.Canus although he confesse it, as euident: notwithstanding, (which is straunge) he thinketh them vnwise Bishops, who seeke to reforme it. For while they cure the nailesore (saith he) they hurt the head: that is, in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories; but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre, that scarce any 8Forma antiquae religionis.shew of the olde religion is remaining in it. A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed. For though they hauehave remoued some of those stories, which Canus saith are 9Incerta, apocrypha, leuia, falsa.vncertaine, forged, friuolous, and false: yet hauehave they doon it sparingly. If they should hauehave left out all those legend-toyes: their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer, which heretikes would hauehave laught at: and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion, saue that their seruice is in Latin.

Hart.

These thinges are impertinent, but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse. For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life? or S. Dominikes? or the golden legend, that old moth-eaten booke (as D. hIn the D… …ection lib. 4.Harding calleth it,) of the liues of Saintes? I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers, but of olde and ancient: whom Canus iudgeth better of, then of the younger. For iLocor. Theolog. l. 11. c. ….he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis, and Antoninus, that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine, as to let go nothing that they found writē in any papers whatsoeuer. But of Bede, and Gregorie, he iudgeth more softly: and rather excuseth them then reproueth them. Though, iudge he how he listed, he was but one Doctour: and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement, both for younger and elder writers.

Rainoldes.

They who deale with taming of lyons (I hauehave read) are wont, when they finde them somewhat out of order, to beate dogges before them: that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert. Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life, or of S. Dominikes, or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it, *Iames the Archbishop o… Genua in Italy.though he who wrote it was an Archbishop, & in his time a man of name, and his booke a legend, read publikely in Churches, and called golden for the excellencie; but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer, or Antoninus (if you will,) and Vincentius Beluacensis, who are as good as he welnigh: you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake, but for the lions rather, I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too. For, as not kDe diuin. offic. l. 7. c. 15.Rupertus onelyonly, but lOper. Pascal. lib. 5.Sedulius, doo write that our Sauiour after his resurrection appeered first to the blessed virgin, which is false, but they thought through an affection to her, that he should hauehave done so: in like sort a louing affection to Saintes hath transported sundry, not onelyonly later writers, but auncienter also from the truth to fansies. Gelasius, and the seuentie Bishops, who were assembled in a Councel with him, were assembled about eleuen hundred yeares ago. Yet euen then how manie stories of the Saintes were set abroade with forged fables? almost a whole bead-roale, mc. Sancta Romana. distinct. 15.condemned by the Councell. Whereof that some were coyned vponupon that affection, as some vponupon others: one of them, entitled nLiber Actuum Teclae & Pauli.the actes of Paule and Tecla, may serue for an example. These actes contained a storie (supposed to be omitted in the oThe foureteenth chapter of the Actes.actes of the Apostles) how that when S. Paule did preach at Iconium, Tecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman, hearing him preach of maidenhood, forsooke her husband by and by, and went away with him: and thereupon was persecuted, and deliuered from great dangers, and wrought many miracles, and trauailed through sundry countries with S. Paule. Which though it be a lewd tale, agréeing neither with pAct. 16.2. & 17.14. & 18.1. and so foorth.the circumstance of S. Paules storie, nor with his q1. …or. 7.13.doctrine and r1. Cor. 9.5.discretion: yet was it published as true, and that in the Apostles age, sHieron. de scriptorib. ecclesiast. verbo Lucas, ex Tertulliano.by an Elder, or Priest, (as you would terme him,) who was conuicted by S. Iohn, and confessed that he wrote it for *Amore Pauli.good will that he bare to Paule. Such a credit (belike) he thought it would be to S. Paule, that a maide betrothed to a man of wealth and worship, (and so Matt. 1.20.his wife by right,) should forsake her husband and goe away with him. Wherefore, though you minde not to presse me with thinges of later writers, but of old & ancient, as you say: yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like autoritie. For neither doo I know what number of yeares you will thinke sufficient to proue a writer old: and though you account none olde, but such as liued many hundred yeares since; yet are their fables in your Portesse (as namely uThamiride sponso relicto. In Breuiar. Roman. edit. a Pi… quinto. In festis Septembr.this of Tecla) euen out of them also. Yea the most of those things, not onelyonly this of Tecla, but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome, and the Councell, condemned for vnsound: I say, the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends, and in the most of your Portesses. Which thing I affirme not of mine owne knowlege, for I hauehave not séene so many sortes of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most: but xComment. in 2. epist. ad Timoth. c. 4. Digress. 21.Claudius Espencaeus, a Doctor of Paris, an eger enimie of Beza (, y^e worthier of credit herein,) affirmeth it, and he affirmeth it with great asseueration that it is so 1Indubié.vndoutedly. Nor doth he touch them onelyonly for these so ancient lyes, but for many mo, which are of lesse ancientie, and that vponupon the iudgement of sundry learned men, and not his priuate fansie. For he alleageth yPetr. Abb. Cluniac. l. 5. c. 29.Peter, a venerable Abbat, (who liued foure hundred yeares agoe,) saying, that the songs and hymnes of the Church had very many toyes: as namely an hymne in the praise of S. Benet; in the which, though reading it ouer somewhat hastily, and staying not to search all, yet he found 2Mendacia ad minus viginti quatuor.at least foure and twentie lyes. He alleageth an other zPetr. Pictauē sis epist. 31.Peter complayning likewise and reprouing a false and fond hymne in the praise of S. Mawre running vponupon the waters. He alleageth the aPetr. de Aliaco Cardinal. d… reformat. eccles. consideration. 3.Cardinall of Aliacos aduise to the Councell of Constance, for order to be taken that 3Scripturae apocryphae. In Picus they are called apocryphaenugae.vnsound writings (corrupt and péeuish pamphlets) be not read in the Church-seruice. He alleageth the oration of the bIohan. Francis. Pici orat. de moribus reformandis a… Concil. Later. sub. Leone 10.Earle of Mirandula to Pope Leo the tenth, and the Councell of Lateran, renewing the Cardinall of Aliacos aduise. He alleageth cComment. vrbanor. l. 16.Raphael Volaterran, a great historian, if not a diuine, bewailing the case that in the dayly praiers there are 4Aperta mendacia.manifest lies read. He alleageth dQuodlibe…. 6.Adrian (who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth) misliking 5Superstitiosa figmenta.superstitious forgeries in holy matters. In a word, he saith that the Catholikes may lament in the behalfe of the Church, as eLament. 2.1…Ieremie lamented in the behalfe of the Synagogue, Thy prophets hauehave seene 6Falsa & stul…ta.false and foolish things for thee: and he addeth that the griefe which he doth feele and open for these 7…toyes & dotages crept into the publike seruice of the Church, is common vntounto him with all good men for the most part. Wherein, as his desire and zeale of reformation is greater then Canus, who would not hauehave this filth swept out of the Portesses: so dealeth he more fréely and frankly with your churches legends too, then Canus. For, letting go the scurffe of the golden legend, and Antoninus, and Vincentius, hee reproueth the storie of Saintes which was compiled of late by fPetr. de Natalibus Episcopi Equilin. catalogus Sanctorum.a Venetian, a Bishop of account, and saith that no stable is …o ful of doong, as that is of fables. Yea farther, that Simeon Metaphrastes (a great man in the new legends of gAloys. Lipom. de Sanctor. historiis Tom. 5.6. & 7.Lipomanus, and hLaurent. Sur. de probatis Sanctorum histo riis.Surius,) and Vsuardes Martyrologe, (which is the Church of Romes legend,) besides the Martyrologes of certaine other writers, 1Multis scaten… quisquiliis.are fraught with much baggage. Now, to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus, and the autours whom he alleageth, you may adde the kings professours and chiefest Doctors of Louan, (if you desire more witnesses,) euen Hessels, and Molanus. Of whom,iCensura Iohannis Hessels in librum qui in scribitur Passionale de Sanctis per annum. the one, writing a Censure on a storie called the Passionall of Saintes, condemneth much thereof, and enditeth more, with this verdict, k1. Thess. 5.21.Try al things, holde that which is good: the other, lIohann. Molanus praefat. in …esselii Censuram.setting foorth and commending that Censure, saith it is no maruaile if in that Passionall there be corrupt stories, sith the stories which the Catholikes of that countrie found amongst 2Mendaces Graecos.the lying Greekes might easily come into it. Molanus layeth the faulte vponupon the lying Greekes, as they deserue it best indéed. Notwithstanding it appéereth by *Namely by S. Ierom, Sedulius, Rupertus, …ames the Archbi…op of Genua, Pope Adrian the …rst, and Vsuarde. In Censura Hess. & praefation. in Vsuardum.some, whom either Hes…els or himselfe hauehave censured, that not the Greekes alone are faultie. And sundry Greekes are faultie whom he would be loth to call lying Greekes: as namely Nicephorus, & Simeon Metaphrastes, of the newer writers; & of the ancienter, Palladius, and Cassianus. Of all whom mPraefat. in Martyrologium Vsuardi c. 20. excus. Louan. … 568.Molanus hath giuen this note, that most learned men do iudge them 3Non satis probatae autoritatis.not worthy to be greatly credited. Whereby you may sée that the iudgement of Canus, touching the stories of Saintes, is more a great deale then one Doctors iudgement. Howbeit, if so many were not of his minde: yet should you doo him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor. For himselfe alleageth the testimonie of a Doctor as good as any that I hauehave named: I meane that worthy man nDe tradendis dis…iplin. l. 5.Ludouicus Viues. Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captaines and philosophers are writen so notably, that they are like to liue for euer; but the liues of Apostles, of Martyrs, of Saintes, the actes of the Church both in the spring and grouth of it, are couered with great darknes, and lye vnknown in a maner: for those things (saith he) which are writen of them are (a fewe excepted) 4Multis commentis foeda…a.defiled with many fables, while he that writeth them doth folow his own affectiō, & telleth not what a Saint hath done, but what he would hauehave had him done, so that the writers fansie and not the truth doth penne the storie. Yea, some hauehave thought it a point of great godlinesse 5Mendaciol… pro religione confingere.to coyne prety lyes, that thereby mens deuotion might be stirred vp. Some hauehave thought it a point of great godlinesse, saith Viues: but wil you know of what godlines? There is a mysterie in y^•, which Vi…es doth not open: Canus doth open it. For oLoc…r. Theolog. l. 11. c. 6.he saith that they, who feine and forge in writing ecclesiasticall stories, deuise their whole matter ether to error or to gaine, S. Paule hath forewarned vsus of a kinde of men, p1. Tim. 6.5.which thinke that gaine is godlines. Your Church, M. Hart, hath had many minions, who of a zeale to this godlines hauehave not onelyonly writen, but wrought miracles too. You remember qIn the Apocrypha of Daniel. chapt. 14.the tale of Bel and the Dragon. A rNicol. Lira … Dan. 14.2….fréend of yours intreating thereof, doth report, that as the Priestes of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship, so euen in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceiued with miracles wrought either by Priestes, or by their adherents, for gaine and lucres sake.

Hart.

If any doo so, we allow not of it: and there is order taken by sSession. 25. decret. depurgator. & sequent.the Councell of Trent against such abuses. But what is this to the Portesse? or rather to the Popes supremacie? Chiefly, sith I minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it?

Rainoldes.

I was afraide you would. You are a man a… likely (for ought that I know) to doo it for the Popes supremacie, as your Rhemists to doo it for the assumption of the virgin. Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse, as of Portesse-like writers, by whom I fell into your Portesse. But …f you minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it: then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered tIn bre…iatri… secundum vsu… Sar…m.vponupon S. Thomas of Canterburie.

Aqua Thomae quinquies

varians colorem,

In las semel transijt,

quater in cr…orem.

Ad Thomae memoriam

quater lux descendit,

Et in sancti gloriam

cereos accendit.

The water of Thomas

did fiue times change her colour,

Once it was turned into milke,

and foure times into bloud.

At Thomas his monument

foure times there came downe light,

And in the honour of the Sainte

it kindled the tapers.

Hart.

I pray go to the purpose, and leaue these idle fansies which you bring in to play with. There is no such thing in the Portesse now. And if it were: what is it to the point in question?

Rainoldes.

To the point in question, as direct as may be. For this Thomas died uMatt. Paris histor. Angl. in Henric. secund.vponupon occasion of a quarrell about the Popes supremacie: while he maintained appeales (against the king) to the Pope. Now, to proue that he stood in defense of the truth, those miracles were wrought. For, that, which they preached who had the grace of miracles, was the truth, saith xMotiu. 6.Bristow: adding, that S. Thomas of Canterbury, S. Thomas of Aquine, S. Francis, S. Dominike, and infinit others had that grace, in such sorte, that no man is able to put any difference betweene the miracles of Christ with his Apostles, and of these men. Yet well-fare their heartes who reformed your Portesse. For they hauehave put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury, and many others: which they would not hauehave doon, (I trow,) had they not knowne some difference betwéene the miracles of these men, and the miracles of Christ. But they hauehave left in as worthie a miracle, as those, of an other of Bristowes miracle-workers, euen of S. Thomas of Aquine: and (I hope) you will not call that an idle fansie; though it be as idle with me, as the former. For yBreuiar. Rom. in festo S. Tho. Aquinat.they report of him, that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix, he heard a voyce (*Antonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 23. cap. 7. the crucifix spake it) saying to him, 1Bene scripfisti de me Thoma.Thomas, thou hast writen well of me, Thomas. I should hauehave thought (for my part) that the wodden crucifix of a louing thankfull hart, had commended him, because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God, and zThom. Aquin. Summ. Theolo. part. 3. quaest. 25. artic. 4.writeth solemnly that men ought to doo so. But Pope aIn eclog▪ bullar. & motu proprior. Pij. quint.Pius the fifth, the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse, affirmeth, that 2Scripto…is An gelici doctrina saluatoris crucifixi or … mirabiliter probata.the doctrine of Thomas was approued by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle. And he knew best the meaning ofit. So y^t I perceyue this miracle was rather a dogmaticall miracle (as bMotiu. 5.Bristow …ermeth it) then personall. But whether personall, or dogma…icall: it shall not perswade me that all is true▪ which is writen and taught by your dogmaticall Doctor Thomas. For (as Chapt. 5. Diuis. 2I hauehave shewed) he forgeth and belyeth the Fathers notably, in the defense of the Popes supremacie against the Grecians. I can hardly think, that, when the crucifix said Thomas had writen well, it meant to approue his writing in that point. Or if the crucifix meant it, the crucifix was to blame: vnlesse the faute were rather in some lying knaue, who spake out of the crucifix. Such dRufin. hist. ecclesiast. lib. …. cap. 25.feates there hauehave beene wrought in images ere now.

Hart.

Euill mindes turne all thinges to the worst. Pope Pius the fifth doth say of that miracle, that it 3Sicutipia testatur historia.is recorded in a godly story.

Rainoldes.

But, in what story, Pope Pius doth not say. Belike he meaneth Antoninus: of whom you know what Canus iudgeth; and his iudgement therein is good.

Hart.

Yet you can not deny but that Antoninus reporteth many true thinges. And why may not that miracle (I pray) be one of them?

Rainoldes.

A lying miracle, no doubt, as eHistor. part. 3. tit. 22. cap. 7. …. 11.Antoninus reporteth it. For he saith that when Thomas was commanded by Pope Gregorie to come vntounto the Councell of Lions, and to bring with him that booke which he had made by Pope Vrbanes commandement against the errours of the Grecians, whereof in that Councell they were to be conuicted: before he went thither, that voyce was heard out of the crucifix, by certaine who watched Thomas, as he was praying, on a certaine night, in S. Dominikes coouent-church. I say nothing here of the suspicious circumstances, the time, the night season; the place, the coouent-church; the witnesses, lying in waite; the cause, to proue that which should bee handled for the Pope against the Grecians in the Councell. OnelyOnly this I say, that séeing in that booke (against the errors of the Grecians) Thomas doth falsifie the writinges of S. Cyrill, and of aboue six hundred Fathers, euen the generall Councel of Chalcedon, to make them beare witnesse for the Popes supremacie: the miracle pretended to hauehave declared, as from heauen, that Thomas did well in handling so the cause of Christ, was a lying miracle▪ lying, in respect of the forme, or of the end; I meane, as either wrought by deceit, or to deceit; by deceit, ifmen did counterfeit the voice; to deceit, if they hearde it miraculously in deede. As it is writen touching the man of sinne, that f2. Thess. 2. v…r. ….his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power, and with lying signes and wonders, and with all deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish, because they receyued not the louelove of truth that they might be saued. Take héede, M. Hart, least that which foloweth be verified in you, gver. 11.Therefore shall God send them strong delusion to beleue lyes, that al they may be damned who beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteou…nesse.

Hart.

Take heede vntounto your selfe, M. Rainoldes, that you offend not in this vnrighteousnesse, by abusing that famous Doctor of the Church, S. Thomas of Aquine. For hBulla Pij quinti super celebratione festi…itatis Angelici Doctoris S. Thomae de Aquino.the holy Father Pope Pius the fifth hath honoured his memorie with a double greater feast in his countrie, and with a double feast throughout all Christendome, to be kept as solemnly as the holy dayes of the foure Doctours of the Church are kept. Wherefore you ought to thinke so much the more reuerently of all that he hath writen, and not to charge him with forging and falsifying, if he hauehave missed ought: but rather to suppose that if the autours hauehave not that which he alleageth, yet he had read it alleaged by some other, and of a good affection to the Sée of Rome he thought it to be rightly alleaged, and wrote it.

Rainoldes.

Of a good affection. As you will. Let it be so. He, with such dealing of a good affection, hath feasted the Pope: and the Pope againe of a good affection hath double feasted him. But you graunt then that Doctors of the Church may bee deceyued, as through ouersight, so through affection too: and that these exceptions against them are lawfull.

Hart.

Lawfull, if you proue that they be so deceiued. For they may be, I graunt.

Rainoldes.

What? And may they not be deceiued also, or rather seeme to be deceyued through the affection or ouersight of other men?

Hart.

Of other men? How?

Rainoldes.

As when a Greeke writer is translated into Latin, the translator maketh him sometimes to say that which he neuer meant. And before printing, the scriueners, who copied out bookes with hand, committed sundrie scapes. Which likewise befalleth vntounto printers now. So there may be a faute in an autour without the autours faute, through ouersight of printers, or scriueners, or translators. For example, in the story ecclesiasticall of iEuseb. histor. eccles. l. 2. c. 1.Eusebius translated by Rufinus, it is alleaged out of Clemens that Peter, Iames, & Iohn, although Christ preferred them almost before all, yet they tooke not the honour of primacie to them selues, but ordeined Iames (who was surnamed Iust,) 1Episcopum Apostolorum.Bishop of the Apostles. This had béene a notable testimonie for Iames, against the primacie of Peter. But kChapt. 4. Diuision 2.I alleaged it not: because as I séeke to winne you to the truth, so I séeke to doo it by true and right meanes. Whereof this were none, being an ouersight (as it appeereth) of Rufinus. For in the Greeke Eusebius, it is, that they ordeined him 2foreignBishop of Ierusalem, not Bishop of the Apostles.

Hart.

That may be the printers faute, or the scriueners perhaps, who wrote it out: not his who translated it.

Rainoldes.

But I thinke it rather the translators faulte. For Marianus Scotus doth cite out of Methodius the same touching Iames, that they ordeined him Bishop of the Apostles. lChron. lib. 2.Which (belike) was taken out of the storie of Eusebius doon into Latin by Rufinus. And he hath erred often in in turning Gréeke writers: as also his translation of Iosephus sheweth. Though I may not charge him with all the faultes therein. For where it is auouched by mSixt. Senen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 1.some that Iosephus holdeth the bookes of Maccabees to be holy scripture, as in déede he séemeth to doo *In calce lib. de Maccabaeis.in the Latin: in the Greeke he saith not any such thing, nay nIosephus aduersus Apion. lib. 1.he doth teach the contrarie; but it is vnlikely this came from Rufinus, oRufin. exposit. Symb. Apost.who helde him selfe the Maccabees not to be canonical. Howbeit if you say that the Gréeke copie which he translated of Eusebius, had that word amisse through the scriueners faulte: I will not striue against you. But a more certaine example of the faultinesse in scriueners first, and printers after, is found in pLibr. 2.Optatus: in that he affirmeth, Peter was called Cephas because he was head of the Apostles; Apostolorum caeput Petrus, vnde & Cephas appellatus est. Upon the which place qFran. Balduin. Annot. in Optat.your lawier doth note, that where he had thought it to be an ouersight of a man dreaming that the Syriake word, which singifieth a stone, is the Greeke foreign, which signifieth a head: now he ghessed rather that the words [unde & Cephas appellatus est,] were some foolish glose, writen rashly in the margent, and then interlaced into the text by scriueners.

Hart.

Like enough. But you hauehave no harme by this glose. For though you blot it out, yet Optatus saith that Peter was head of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

Neither hauehave we any harme by that text. For I hauehave shewed rChapt. 5. Diuision 3.before it maketh nought for the Papacie. But we may hauehave harme by that kind of gloses: chiefely sith (as sIn Augustinum de ciui…. Dei l. 22. c. 8.Viues obserueth on S. Austin, vponupon the like occasion) some glosers hauehave defiled all the writings of noble autours with such vncleane handling of them.

Hart.

Will you make an ende of excepting against the Fathers: and let vsus heare at length the Fathers speake themselues?

Rainoldes.

The fathers them selues? With a very good will. But looke that you bring me the Fathers them selues. For, (which is my last exception, and so an ende,) there are many bookes entitled to Fathers which the Fathers made not: nay whereof sundry were made by such youthes, as are not worthy to beare the Fathers shooes. The workes of S. Ierom are abroade in nine volumes: of the which nine as good as three are none of his. And yet Vitae patrum, (a legend, how wrongfully fathered on S. Ierom your tComment. in epist. 2. ad Tim. cap. 4.Espencaeus & uLocor. Theologic. l. 11. c. 6.Canus shew,) is not amongst them. Though there are amongst them slippes of the same tree: 1Fabula insul…a aeque acbarbara.a barbarous and sottish fable (as Canus calleth it) of the natiuitie of S. Marie, and 2Huius generis sunt ali… multa.many other treatises of the same kinde, which Erasmus hath refuted *Diligentissimé & rectissimé.most diligently & rightly. The workes of S. Austin hauehave not béene tampred with, so much, in this sort. Notwithstāding there is not aboue one or two of his ten volumes, that hath not more or fewer such pamphlets patched to it. Not onelyonly by the iudgement and censure of Erasmus, which yet you sée how Canus estéemeth in S. Ierom: but also of the Louanists, whose censures are the censures of many of your best Diuines; and xCensura Theologorum Louanien…um in appendice …omi secundi & caeterorum Augustini.they shew that sundry things beare S. Austins name, whereof some are vnlearned, some lewde, and heretical. But what do I speake of Ierom and Austin? when there is scarse any amongst all the Fathers that hath not beene abused so. The Frier (whom yPrincip. doctrin. l. 9. c. 14.Stapleton doth commend greatly for diligence, and iudgement,) zSixtus Senen sis de falsa librorum inscriptione.Sixtus Senensis hath writen a discourse touching the false entitling of bookes, whence it cometh, and how to finde it out. Therein he hath proued that bookes are fathered falsly, not onelyonly vponupon Austin and Ierom, whom I named, but also vponupon Ambrose, Cyprian, Athanasius, Eusebius Emisenus, Iunilius, Cyrill, Eucherius, Arnobius, yea Thomas of Aquine too. With this discourse he closeth vp the former volume of aBibliothec… sanctae l. …. & 4.his holy librarie: in which hee hath shewed that Clemens, Abdias, Origen, Chrysostome, Hippolytus, & many mo hauehave had their names defaced with the same iniury.

Hart.

There are many bookes entitled to the Fathers falsly, we confesse. I will not bring them in, to witnesse against you: or if I doo, you may refuse them lawfully.

Rainoldes.

Then you will not bring in bApostol hist▪ lib. 1.the storie of Abdias, to proue that Peter gaue the whole power to Clemens which Christ had giuen him. Or if you doo, you license me to refuse him, as fréely as cChap. 6. Diuision 4.I refused his coosin Clemens in the same point. Neither will you bring dComment▪ in Psalm. 106.Arnobius on the Psalmes, to proue that who so goeth out of Peters Church, shal perish, as doth ePrin…. doctr. l. 6. c. 15.Stapleton. Or, if you doo, you license me to refuse him, as not the man whom Stapleton would hauehave him taken for.

Hart.

You may refuse Abdias. For Pope Paule the fourth reiected him amongst the bookes which he condemned: as fBiblioth. sanct… lib. 2.Sixtus recordeth. But Arnobius is an ancient writer indéede, & more worthy of credit.

Rainoldes.

More worthy of credit then Abdias, I graunt. But he is not that *Vetustissimus scriptor.writer most ancient, whom Stapleton reporteth him to be. For gHieron. de scriptorib. eccl.the most ancient Arnobius was elder (as hBiblioth. sanct. lib. 4.Sixtus also noteth) then that he might heare of iHistor. tripartit. l. 5. c. 5.the heresie of Photinus. Whereas kCommentar. in Psalm. 109.this Arnobius, who writeth on the Psalmes, doth mention Photinus, and write by name against his heresie.

Hart.

Will you stand then to the iudgement of Sixtus, which be the right and naturall graffes of the Fathers, and which bee bastard slippes.

Rainoldes.

No. For though Sixtus did sée many thinges, yet he saw not all: and others may sée that which Sixtus ouersaw. As, for example, there are two bookes touching the martyrdom of Peter and Paule, bearing the name of Linus, the first Bishop of Rome. These doth Bibliothe…. sanct… lib. 2. in verbi… Paulus, Petr…, Linus.Sixtus iudge to hauehave indeede béene writen by that ancient Linus, as mIn fine commentarior. in Paulum.Faber also did before him. But nDe continenti… l. 6. c. 2.Claudius Espencaeus doth maruel that Faber, a learned man, and witty, could be so perswaded: sith Peter in that storie is made to withdraw the Roman wiues & matrones from their husbands beddes vnderunder pretense of chastitie. Which vnchristian doctrine, repugnant to the lawes of godlinesse and honestie, nether was it possible that Peter should teach, neither is it likely that Linus should belye him with it. And thus you sée an autor disallowed by Espencaeus on very sound reason, whom Sixtus hath allowed of, not so discretely.

Hart.

But if you thus allow and disallow whom you list: I may take paines in vaine. For when I shall alleage this or that Father speaking most expressely for the Popes supremacie: you hauehave your answere readie, that he was ouerséene through error, or ouerborne with affection, or if he wrote in Gréeke, he is mistranslated; or, if he wrote in Latin, he was misse writen, or misseprinted; or if none of these will serue, it is a bastard falsly fathered on him. And whether your shifts be sufficient answeres, your selfe will be iudge.

Hart.

Nay, not so nether. For what soeuer I answere, I will giuegive reason of it. And whether my reasons bee sufficient proofes: I will permit it (as I said) to the iudgement of the iurie, that is, of all indifferent men, who hauehave skill to weigh the reasons that are brought, and conscience to giuegive verdict according vntounto that they finde. Which triall if you like off, as you séemed to doo: then bring forth your witnesses, and let vsus heare now the Fathers speake themselues.

Hart.

Content. And I will …irst beginne with the Fathers of the Church of Rome, The third Diuision.euen the auncient Bishops whom I alleaged oIn the 1. Diuision of this Chapter.before out of D. pPrinc. doctr. l. 6. c. 15.Stapleton; namely Anacletus, Alexander the first, Pius the first, Victor, Zepherinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Melchiades, Iulius, and Dama…us. To whom I adde also them whom you mentioned out of qLocor. Theolog. l. 6. c. 8.Melchior Canus: to wéete, the two Sixti, with Eleutherius and Marcus. For though some of them maintain it as by scripture, some as by tradition: yet all agrée in this that they maintaine the Popes supremacie.

Rainoldes.

In déed, though their heades be turned one from an other, yet their tailes méete together with a firebrand betwixt them, as did rIudg. 15.4.the foxes of Samson. But Samson had three hundred foxes: hauehave you no more but these fewe?

Hart.

Foxes doo you call those holy martyrs and Bishops? And will you still vtter such blasphemous spéeches, and set your mouth against heauen?

Rainoldes.

Against hell, M. Hart, and not against heauen. For I reuerence the holy martyrs whom yo… named. But, foxes I call those beastes who wrote the thinges that Stapleton and Canus quote: most lewdly and iniuriously to the martyrs and Bishops whom they are falsly fathered on, as I will proue. Which that I may doo with lesser trouble, all in one: I would you brought the rest if you hauehave any more of them.

Hart.

More? Why, all the Bishops of Rome from them forward, euen till our age, hauehave taught the same doctrine, as sLocor. Theologicor. lib. 6. c. 4.Canus declareth. For it is confirmed by Innocentius the first, in his epistles to the Councels of Carthage and Mileuis; by Leo in his epistles to Anastasius, and the Bishops of the prouince of Vienna; by Gelasius in his epistl… … Anastasius the Emperour, and in the decrees which hee made with the seuentie Bishops, and in his epistle to the Bishops of Dardania; by Vigilius in his decrees, the last chapter of them; by Pelagius the second, to the Bishops that were assembled in the citie of Constantinople; by S. Gregorie in his epistle to Austin the Bishop of the Englishmen; and by many other Popes whose testimonies are rehersed in the decrees and decretals, in the twelfth distinction, and seuenteenth, and ninetéenth, and twentieth, and one and twentieth and two and twentieth, and the eightieth distinction, in the canon beginning with the worde Vrbes; and the ninety sixth distinction in the canon Bene; and in the foure and twentieth cause, the first question, throughout many chapters; and in the fiue and twentieth cause, the first question; and in the title of election, in the chapter beginning with the word Significasti; and the title of priuileges, the chapter Amiqua; and the title of baptisme, the chapter Maiores; and the title of election in the sixth booke of decretals, the chapter Fundamenta; and in the Extrauagants, the constitution V…am sanctam; which extrauagant constitution was renewe… … approued by the Councell of Lateran vnderunder Leo the tenth. So that you hauehave not onelyonly the first Bishops of Rome, but all the successors of Peter in that Sée speaking with one consent for the Popes supremacie, euen a clowde of witnesses.

Rainoldes.

Not a clowde of witnesses such as tHeb. 12.1.the Apostle spake off to the Hebrewes. But such a clowde rather as uRusin. hist. eccles lib. 1. cap. 3….Athanasius meant: who when Iulian the Emperour had sent men of armes to spoile him of his life, and the faithfull about him were sorie for it, and wept, Be not dismayed (saith he) my children; it is b…t a small cloude, and will passe ouer quickly. For this host of Popes which you hauehave armed against vsus, may be sorted out into thrée companies. Whereof the first front, is, the names of them who liued three hundred yeares and vpwarde after Christ: but the names onelyonly. For the writings sauour as much of those Bishops, as scarcrowes do resemble the strength of valiant men. The second front, are they who liued the next three hundred yeares, or there about. And the weapons (though not all) which they beare, are their owne: but those which are theire owne, are not long enough to reach the supremacie; and that which they doo reach they are to weake to winne it. The third, is as it were the forlorne hope: the Popes which doo folow the first and second front, in the vawarde, as you would say. And they hauehave best will, but can doo least. For they are troubled so with care of the cariage, and their whole artillerie of decrees, and decretals, and extrauagants is so dull, that, if the former be discomfited, they hauehave not power to strike a stroake. So that you sée, the witnesses, which you hauehave brought yet, are of no valure: hauehave you any better?

Hart.

Nay stay, I pray, a litle: and looke ere you leape. Soft fire makes sweete malt. Your answere to the Popes whose autorities I cited doth stand on three pointes, according to thrée companies of them, as you sort them. The first, you say, are counterfeites, and most vnlike those Bishops whose names they take vponupon them. The next auouch not the supremacie of the Pope: though they auouch more then is true, through affection. The last, through a regarde of their owne commodities, hauehave spoken for them selues, and are vnfit to witnesse in their owne matter. Is not this your meaning?

Rainoldes.

Yes. But that which you apply to the last sort, that they are vnfit to witn… …o their owne matter: I meane it of the second too. And if I thought that the first (which séeme to hauehave beene counterfeited in the dayes of the third) had beene counterfeited and coined by some ambitious Pope himselfe: I would vse the same exception to them also. But in very truth I am not of opinion that any Pope himselfe did coine them. It was some cooke rather or horse-keeper of the Popes: if I can gesse ought by the style and Latin.

Hart.

I perceiue that all which you hauehave to say against the writings of the first sorte, is that, which your xEccl…s. histor. Magd…burg. Centur. 2.3 & 4. cap. 7.Centuries of Meydenburg hauehave saide. For this is their reason and they stand much vponupon it, that the style is bad, and the Latin barbarous. Which disproofe is foolish and of no force: as Father yFrancis. Turrian. aduers. Magdeburg. Centuriat. pro epist. Pontific… lib. 1. cap. 17. & lib. 2. cap. 1. & 2.Turrian sheweth in his defense of the canons of the Apostles and of those epistles of the Popes, against the Centuries. For in style and Latin they might speake rudely, both to the entent that in thinges pertaining to the saluation of all euen the simplest might vnderstand them: and least they should séeme by choise of wordes to hunt for prayse and vaine glory. Yea, whereas the Centuries, in this point of style, doo note the likenesse of it too, as if that were a speciall marke to proue them counterfeit: therein they hauehave betrayed most notorious folly. For the style is wont to be a certaine token of the right autour (chiefly in some mens writings,) whereby we vse often to try and discerne a true booke from a forged; as learned men hauehave doon in Austin, Ierom, Ambrose, Cyprian, Tertullian, and others. But herein the tryall is the vnlikenesse of the style, betwene an autours owne worke and a bastard fathered on him. Which tryall can not bee had in those epistles of the Popes, that are denyed by the Centuries: because we hauehave nothing writen by those Popes, but onelyonly those epistles. Now sée the blindnesse of heretikes. When they can not disproue them by vnlikenesse of style, they say that the likenesse of the style disproueth them: which is most ridiculous-

Rainoldes.

As Father Turrian dreamed. And as it is wont to fall out in dreames that sundrie pointes of them are contrarie one to another, and yet I know not how the dreamer imagineth that all do cleaue togither well: so fareth it with Turrian in his discourse touching the style against the Centuries. For what is the reason on the which zPro epist. Ponti…. lib▪ …. cap. 1▪he saith that commonly the style is a sure token, and as it were a touchstone, wherby we may discerne true bookes from forg… ▪

Hart.

Because that the style sometime is so peculiar to his owne autour, that his worke may thereby easily bee knowne euen by a man of meane iudgement: as in Tertullian, Apuleius, Plinie, Suetonius, and other such, not to recken vp all.

Rainoldes.

Why? May not an other mans style be so like to Tertullians, or any such, that you shall not be able to discerne betweene them.

Hart.

It may be perhaps: but that is rare and harde. And therefore the learned man (whom you mentioned) aDe falsa librorum inscrip. biblioth. sanct. lib. 4.Sixtus Senensis, affirmeth, that of all the tokens, and coniectures, by which the right workes of autours may bee knowne from counterfeite and forged, the diuersitie of style doth seeme to be most sure and euident. For though it be easie for eueryevery craftie coosiner to take vponupon himselfe the countrie, and kinred, and times of any autour, and folow his pointes of doctrine too: yet there is nothing harder then to counterfeit an other mans style. By the style (saith he) I meane not that outward skinne of the wordes, but the shape of the oration, the frame of the speech, the ioyning and continuall order of the partes, the forme of eloquution, the figures of speaking, the arte of disposing, the methode of handling, & other thinges which are proper to eueryevery well spoken autour. For as eueryevery man hath a peculiar feature of bodie to himself, and a peculiar countenance, and a peculiar voyce, and a peculiar naturall coolour, and other seuerall markes whereby he doth differ from other men, and is vnlike them: so all ecclesiastical writers hauehave certaine properties peculiar to them selues, which neuer doo agree or seldome to any other: such, as is a gorgeous shew in Antiochus, an exquisite diligence of speech in Basil, a tragicall loftinesse in Gregorie Nazianzene, a cleane and vnforced elegancie in Chrysostome, a singular pure facilitie in Cyprian, a French-like statelines of vtterance in Hilarie, a graue and sharpe copiousnesse of briefe sayinges in Ambrose, in Ierom a florishing varietie of thinges & words, in Austin clauses ending like, and members falling like, in Gregorie a gate (as I may say) of sentences answering one an other in measures interchaungeably, and other thinges of like sort, which although a man doo seeke of purpose to expresse, yet he cannot attaine vntounto them. By the which words of Sixtus you may sée, that Turrian spake reason, in saying, that the style is commonly a sure token to discerne the right workes of autours from counterfeits.

Rainoldes.

And by the same wordes of Sixtus you may sée, that he, in saying so, disproueth his owne reason, and proueth the reason of the Centuries. For the epistles of y^e Popes which they endi…e of bastardy, are very like in style each of them to other: so like as though all had béene spet out of one mans mouth. Now the autours of them are said to hauehave béene, not two or three Popes, whose children might be like; but two or thrée and thirty with y^e aduantage, Clemens, Euaristus, Telesphorus, Hyginus, Anicetus, Soter, Calixtus, Vrbanus, Pontianus, Anterus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Siluester, and mo, beside the fouretéene whose names you alleaged out of Stapleton and Canus. Hereupon the bCentur. 2. c. ….Centuries inferre that those epistles are falsly fathered on them: because the whole shape and frame of their speech doth openly bewray that one and the same man was autour of them al. For it cannot be (say they) that so many Bishops should hauehave the same speech, no not though they had beene accustomed of purpose to likenes of style. And this is their reason of the likenes of style: which cPro epi…. Pont. l. 2. c. 1.Turrian, while hee striueth to laugh it out as foolish, confirmeth as most sound, by saying that the style is wont to be a sure token wherby mens owne works are discerned from counterfeits, as they hauehave bene in Austin, Ierom, Ambrose, Cyprian, Tertullian, and others. Which could not be so, but that the styles of men hauehave their peculiar properties, wherein they differ each from other, as their bodies doo in feature, colour, voice, countenance, and other markes whereby we know them. And you shall not lightly …nde three men, that hauehave bodies like in all respectes: much lesse thrée and thirty. So the blindnes, which you thought to shew in the Centurie writers, as heretikes, is fallen on the heretical Iesuit who reproueth them. Yea, as d2. King. 6.1… ▪the Syrians, when they went about to take Elisaeus, were striken with blindnes, and led into the middes of the citie of Samaria: so the blinde Iesuit, while he sought to beat downe a truth in the Centuries, hath fallen into the middes of a Samaritan qualitie. For to proue that they could not disproue those epistles by vnlikenes of style, he saith that we hauehave nothing writen by those Popes, whose epistles they deny, but onelyonly those epistles. Which is an vntruth. For one of the Popes, whose bastard epistles eCentur. 3. c. 7.they deny, is Cornelius. Of his there is extant one whole right epistle, and parcels of more, in fEpist. 46. & 48. edit. Pam.Cyprian and gEccles. hist. l. 6 c. 42.Eusebius. An other hCentur. 4. c. 7.is Iulius. Of his there is extant a right epistle in iIn Apolog. 2.Athanasius. Betwéene which epistles, the right ones in Cyprian, Eusebius, and Athanasius, and the bastard ones which are denyed by the Centuries, there is as great difference almost for the style: as there is for substance, betweene golde, and copper. Now by these few you may estéeme the rest: for they came all from one smithes forge. Wherefore not onelyonly the likenes of the style, but the vnlikenes also conuinceth them of forgerie. And this is noted too by kCentur. 4. c. 7.the writers of the Centuries: chiefely in that of Iulius. The more doo I maruaile at the Iesuits boldenes, who saith that they neither could nor doo obiect vnlikenes of the style against them.

Hart.

Yet the former reason which they bring from the Latin, that it is rude & barbarous, is iustly chalenged by lPro epist. Pont. l. 1. c. 17.Turrian. For S. m2. Cor. 11.6.Paule was rude in speech, but not in knowledge. And so might the Popes be.

Rainoldes.

Not so. For it is one thing to be *foreign, set against foreign, & foreign, which the false Apostles vsed. …. Cor. 2. ver. … ▪ … 4.rude in speech, and simple (as you would say) without pompe & brauerie: an other thing, to be barbarous. As it is one thing for a husbandman to weare home-made cloth, which many honest men doo: an other thing, to go (as rogues are wont) in raggs. Wherfore when Turrian saith that the Popes might write barbarously, least by choise of words they should seeme to hunt for praise and vaine glorie: it is, as if a man should say that godly preachers ought to go in torne clothes and full of vermin▪ least by …leanly hansomnes they should séeme to giuegive themselues to pride and vanitie. As for his other reason that they might doo it of a desire to edifie, that, in thinges pertaining to the saluation of all, euen the simplest might vnderstand them: the reason were some what if the common peoples spéech in those dayes had béene of so course a thréede, as theirs is. For the spéech of men is best vnderstood when they declare their mindes in such wordes▪ & phrases, as are receiued commonly. But as farre as I can gesse, or you proue, by the monuments of that time which are left in writing either by heathens or by Christians: such Rigorosus, modernus, charitatiuus, inthro…izare, a malis se cauere, vtiliter se praeuidea…, gaudeo de vestra sospitate, leges se nocentes non suscipiunt, praetaxato modo, vt praelibatum est, episcopus accusandus▪ est ad primates suos, necessarium es… vt vobis ab hac Apostolica sede suffragetur, with many like flowers of speech: Salua in omnibus autoritate Apostolica. In the epistles of Telesphorus, Vrbanus, Antorus, Fabianus, Stephanus, Eusebius, Melchiades, and the rest.base words and phrases, as these epistles swarme with, were not receiued then in the common spéech. And shall we thinke that none of all the Doctors of that age did write for the instruction of the simplest too? Not Tertullian? Not Cyprian? Not Arnobius? Not Lactantius? Not Minutius Felix? Not Ierom, Ambrose, Austin? Or could they instruct them with cleane and true Latin, and could not the Popes? Nay, did other common Christians in Rome speake congruously, and purely, as we sée by their epistles and spéeches yet oIn Cyprian. epist. 3.26.30.31.46. & 50.extant: and was it a priuilege of the Popes alone to write barbarously? I will not deny but that the Popes in our daies may hauehave such prerogatiues: but I am perswaded that in times of olde they were as other common men. And therefore if you hauehave no better ground then Turrian, I shall continue my opinion that the Latin also and not the style onelyonly is iustly noted by the Centuries, to proue, that the epistles whereof wee treate are counterfeit. Howbeit neither style, nor Latin, are the onelyonly proofes that they bring for it. They hauehave more, and stronger.

Hart.

How strong, it may appeere by that which they hauehave put last as the strongest; euen their chiefest reason, the autoritie of witnesses. For therein pCentur. …. c▪ 7.they conclude that the ancient Popes were not autours of those epistles, because nether Eusebius, nor Ierom, nor Damasus, do make mention of them, nor any autour lightly before the time of Charles the great. Of the which argument, the former part is fond: the later, vntrue. For although Eusebius and Ierom are wont diligently to note what thinges hauehave béene writen by any great Doctor; yet not all mens writings came to their handes. As for Damasus, he writeth not so much the liues of the Popes his predecessours, as briefe Chronicle-notes: what place they were born in, what kinred they came off, in what time they liued, how often they gaue orders, in what yeare they died, and where they were buried. Wherefore it is no maruaile that hee noted not what epistles they wrote. Though in a writen copie at Rome (which qPro ep. Po… ▪ l. 5. c. 20▪Turrian saw) there is mention made of one of their epistles, namely of Anacletus.

Rainoldes.

In a writen copie, at Rome, it may be: but in no printed copie yet. An ouersight of some, who, when Frier Su…ius set forth the Councels last, did not informe him of it, that h… might hauehave mended it in Damasus. But if Damasus thought it a matter worth the noting how often they gaue orders: it is very likely that he would hauehave noted how they wrote sometimes too, if they had béene such writers. As for Eusebius, and Ierom, though (I graunt) all writers came not to their hands: yet were it very straunge, that rEusebius l. …. & 3. De vi…a Constant.the one of them being in great fauour with Constantine the Roman Emperour, sHieron. ep. 11. ad Ageruchiam.the other attending on Damasus the Roman Bishop in ecclesiasticall writings, both of them desirous and curious to know all Christian writers monuments tEuseb. in hist. ecclesiast. Hi…ron. de scrip…orib. ecclesiast.purposely to speake of them; neither of them could sée one of these epistles, that such and so many Bishops of Rome had writen. Chiefely, sith they found sundry epistles writen uNamely, by Clemens, Vic…or, and Cornelius.by them, which they mention: and yet of all which they found, there is not one amongst these nether.

Hart.

Those, which then were common, might be lost since: and these, which now we hauehave, might be then vnknowne. Nether is it reason that all they should be said to hauehave writen nothing, whose writings are not commonly knowne vntounto men. For euen now there are (as xPro epist. …. l. 5. c. 20.Turrian reporteth) in the Popes librarie manie bookes of epistles of the later Popes, which containe the actes and déedes of each their Popedomes, whence they are commonly called registers: of Gregorie the seuenth, Innocent the third, Honorius the third, Gregorie the ninth, Innocent the fourth, Alexander the fourth, Vrban the fourth, Clemens the fourth, Nicolas the third, Honorius the fourth, Boniface the eighth, Iohn the two and twentéeth, Clemens the sixth, Innocent the sixth, and Vrban the fifth. And these are known of few men, because they are in writing …nely and not printed: besides very few which Gregorie the ninth, and Boniface the eighth hauehave taken out of them, and compil…d them in the Decretals to the vse of Church-causes. But, if these perhaps should be set forth hereafter: would you say that they are forged, because there hath no mention of them beene made by writers, nor by the Popes themselues; nay▪ which the Popes them selues perhaps neuer saw?

Rainoldes.

The comparison is vn-euen when you say, that the Popes them selues neuer saw bookes in their owne librarie, thereby to shew, that many bookes might be there, which Ierom and Eusebius knew not. For it is likely that the Popes hauehave many bookes which they sée not: they hauehave other thinges to looke on. But Eusebius and Ierom did study through libraries, to see all the autours which were extant in them. So that they were as likely to know the epistles of the former Popes, as Turrian these of the later. For Turrian doth not search olde monumentes more carefully to see vp the Pope, then Ierom and Eusebius did to set foorth Christ. But whatsoeuer Ierom or Eusebius saw: thinke you not that the Popes, as litle as they sée the bookes in their librarie, yet, if the sight of any thereof could auaile them toward the recouering of their supremacy in England, they would finde it quickly?

Hart.

I thinke it should be foorth coming to doo good.

Rainoldes.

Then hauehave the Centuries in this place of witnesses a very strong proofe, that (about the time of Ierom and Eusebius) these epistles were not in the Popes librarie. For there is no mention made of them at all either in yConcil. Carthag. 6. & Africanum. Abou… the yeare of Chri…. 420.the Councel of Carthage, or of Afrike: in which the Pope endeuouring to shew that appeales might lawfully be made to him, would hauehave all…aged them of likelyhood, had they béene extant. But this probabilitie noted by the Centuries, Turrian passeth ouer in silence very smoothly; where yet he maketh semblance of answering al their witnesses: belike, after Antonies precept in zDe … lib. ….Tully, who wisheth men, if they be troubled with a hard argument, to say nothing to it. Howbeit all these (I graunt) are but likelyhoodes. Notwithstanding if you adde to these likelyhoodes of Damasus, of Ierom, of Eusebius, of the Popes them selues, this also that neither any other Father or autour worthie of credit may be lightly found that hath alleaged them before the time of Charles the great, about eight hundred yeares after Christ: it may be well thought that there was good cause why the Centuries should suspect them.

Hart.

Nay, that is the later part of their argument, which (as I saide) is vntrue. *Turria…. pro epist. Pont. lib. 5. cap. 2….For Isidore (who liued aboue a hundred yeares before Charles the great) did gather them together at the request of fourescore Bishops. So that we hauehave foure score Bishops in that one, to testifie with vsus against that ly… of the Centuries.

Rainoldes.

But how know you that, which you tell of Isidore and fourescore Bishops, to be true?

Hart.

How? By the preface of aPraefat. Isidor. Concilior. …om. ….Isidore him selfe set before the Councels. For therein, hauing shewed how he was moued (by the request of fourescore Bishops) to gather the canons together: and we hauehave enterlaced (saith he) the decrees of certaine epistles of the Bishops of Rome, to weete of Clemens, Anacletus, Euaristus, and the rest, such epistles as wee could finde yet, til Siluester the Pope; after the which we hauehave set downe the Councell of Nice, and after that the remnant of the Popes decrees euen vntill S. Gregori…. Thus farre S. Isidore. And is not he a Father? an autour worthie of credit?

Rainoldes.

Admit that he is so: what doo you conclude thereof against the Centuries?

Hart.

Euen that which bChronograph. lib. 3.Genebrard doth, to vtter it with his wordes: then doo the Centurie-writers erre, who keepe a babling that those epistles decretall of the auncient Popes are not alleaged by any autour worthie of credit before the time of Charles the great.

Rainoldes.

Your Genebrard sheweth him selfe a cunning man stil against the Centurie-writers. 1Ne… …atil… reperia….For, whereas they say… you shall not lightly finde it;] he clippeth off the word [lightly,] that, y^e thing being found in a preface of Isidores, he may charge them with 2Errant e…go Centuriatores.errour, to discredit the heretikes. But what if S. Isidore did not write that preface? What if he be a counterfeit too?

Hart.

Marry now you hauehave the way, if you can hold it. Deny all the writers that doo make against you, and say they bee counterfeit. So shameles a cause you vndertake as shameles patrones, that but by s…ameles meanes you are not able to maintaine it.

Rainoldes.

Nay patience, I pray. Me thought you were agréed that I might lawfully e…cept against a Father, if he were counterfeit.

Hart.

True: if he were so. But it is no good exception in law, to say this or that against a man: you must proue it.

Rainoldes.

So I minde to doo. And that by demonstration out of the sa…e booke of cChronograph. …ib. 3.Genebrard himselfe, in which he …indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers. For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye? How doth Genebrard recken?

Hart.

In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen: as he proueth out of Vasaeus.

Rainoldes.

When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnderunder Agatho kept? What saith he of that?

Hart.

In the yeare six hundred foure score and one, or two, or there about.

Rainoldes.

Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell.

Hart.

He was: but what of that?

Rainoldes.

Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles, is a counterfeit, and not Isidores. For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius, and Stephanus, in the time of Pope Agatho, & Constantine the Emperour. Which, séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession: by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it. And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore, are dissolued all into one counterfeit, abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops.

Hart.

dLibr. de … capit. eccles. cap. 27.Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles, about seuen hundred yeares since, did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores, and so he citeth it.

Rainoldes.

Why mention you that? Are you disposed to proue that some hauehave béene deceiued, and thought him Isidore who was not?

Hart.

No: But to proue that the worke is Isidores (as Father ePro epist. Pont. lib. 5. c. 25.Turrian doth) by the testimonie of Igmarus.

Rainoldes.

Ignarus can not proue that. He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors. For it is too cléere by the fConcil. Toletan. 4. & 6. in subscription. episcopor.Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of: and therefore no helpe, but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name. Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit, sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit. And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great, when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie, some groome of the Popes (that had an eye to y^e almes-box) conueied this pamphlet in amongst them: and well meaning men (in France, and other countryes) receyued it as a worthie worke, compiled by S. Isidore, and coming from the See Apostolike. But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses, which is vrged, (and iustly,) as a probable coniecture, that those epistles were not extant in their dayes, the matters that are handled and debated in them, the scriptures alleaged, the stories recorded, the ceremonies mentioned, the times and dates assigned, are, not coniectures probable, but most certaine proofes, that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome, whose names they beare. There is a booke entitled to the Poet gOuidij Nasonis Pelignensis de vetula. Printed by Iohn of Lubecke, a citizē of Coolein in the yeare of Christ. 1479.Ouid, touching an olde woman: hauehave you euer séene it?

Hart.

What is that to the purpose? Doth he speake of the Popes epistles?

Rainoldes.

No: but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes. It is ancient: it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago. And he, who set it foorth, saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age, and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him: in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople, and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie, who did publish it. A smooth tale, to make men beleeue that it is Ouids. Of whom though it sauour no more, then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome: yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie, I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke. For, to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style, if I should vrge it, you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes: that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen, and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest. To the silence of witnesses, that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes, you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue. And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood, then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie. But vntounto the matters of which the booke intreateth, and thinges that it discourseth on, no shadow of defense can be made with any reason. For hDe ve…ula, …. 3.it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie, that 1Hanc mediatricem dabit humano generi rex Largitor veniae.God shall giuegive her to be our mediatresse, and 2Non opus est vt…am velit exaltare gradatim▪ Sed simul assumet, simul & sibi concathedrabit.shall assumpt her into heauen, and place her in a throne with him: yea, the autour 3Illic esto tui memorum memor optima virgo.prayeth to her. Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of (I trow) in Ouids time. Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures, that he could iDe vetula l. 2.cite the 4Imbenedicibilem lex innuit illa spadonem Exemplo quodam famoso: nam spado, cum sit Voce Iacob, manibus non est Esau.law of Moses, and speake of Iacob and Esau, and allude to 5Ecclesiast. 12. l. 3. de vetula.Salomon in Ecclesiastes. Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome, although you hauehave gloses to shift of other reasons: yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them. For the scriptures are so alleaged; and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church, about religion, about rites, about stories ecclesiasticall, that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops.

Hart.

Why? Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter, that they should alleage the scriptures, as that Ouid should?

Rainoldes.

Nay, I doo thinke it, or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely, that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo, then that Ouid should allude to Salomon, or cite Moses. For kIoseph. antiquit. Iud. lib. 12. c. 2.the bookes of Moses (lEpiphan. lib. de mensur. & ponder. perhaps of Salomon too) were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid: and he might hauehave read them. But your common Latin translation of the olde testament, made (a great part of it) by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe, (whence it is called S. Ieroms,) could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome. For they were deceased before he was borne. And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation. An euident token, that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom: yea, a great while after him, as may bee déemed probably. For the common Latin translation, which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed, was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters. Tertullian, Cyprian, Hilarie, Ambrose, and other of the same ages, shew it in all their writings. Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies, as soone as Ierom had set forth his new. For mDe ciuit. Dei l. 18. c. 43.Austin, who saw Ieroms, preferred still the olde translation before it. nEpist. ad Leandrum in exposition. Iob. cap. 5.Gregorie, who liued about two hundred yeares after, doth vse them both indifferently (because the Church of Rome did so,) oExposit. Iob. …. c. ….but liketh better of the new. And so in processe of time the new translation did preuaile, and the olde was wholy left: saue in the Psalmes onelyonly, which being soong in Churches had taken déeper roote then could be plucked vp by Ierom. Now, sith those epistles of the Bishops of Rome doo alleage the scriptures after that translation which the Fathers called the new, pConcil. Trident. Session. 4.you call the olde, and it was so long after Ieroms time before that translation was growne to such credit that it had shut the other out: it is probable that they were writen long after, but whether long or short, it is certaine that they were writen after Ieroms time.

Hart.

It is true that Anacletus and the rest of those Bishops, who liued before S. Ieroms time, must néedes vse that translation which the Fathers call the olde. And so doth qPro epist. Pont. l. 5. c. 21.Turrian answere they did in these epistles.

Rainoldes.

The contrarie is plaine by the epistles themselues, in euerie one of them.

Hart.

I: but Turrian saith that when these epistles were first set abroad to the vse of the Church that they might come to all mens knowlege, then was it thought good (because S. Ieroms translation was in all mens hands) that many places, which were cited according to the other, should be changed and cited according to S. Ieroms translation.

Rainoldes.

But how doth Turrian proue that they were cited first according to the other?

Hart.

Because sundrie sentences, which in them are cited out of the Prophets, would better fit the purpose if they had béene cited according to the other which was out of the Gréeke, then according to S. Ieroms which is out of the Hebrewe. For example, in the first epistle of Pope rAlexand. prim. ep. 1. ad omnes orthodoxos.Alexander, that text is alleaged out of the Prophet sZach. 2.8.Zacharie, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of mine eye, as it is in Ierom. But the other translation out of the Gréeke should be, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of his eye: that is, of his owne eye, and not of Gods. In the which sort it had béene more fit for Alexander to cite it, as Turrian doth proue by the circumstances of the text. And the like he sheweth in two or thrée examples mo.

Rainoldes.

And thereof he concludeth that the Pope did cite it so. As who say the Pope must needes doo that which was most fit.

Hart.

Nay, it doth not well agrée to his purpose, vnlesse he did cite it so.

Rainoldes.

Whether it doo, or no: it is plaine that the autour meant not so to cite it. For in the same epistle he saith that Priests and Bishops (to whom he applieth it) are called the eyes of the Lord. Which sith he saith on those wordes, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of mine eye: it séemeth that hée meant [eye] not of his eye who toucheth, but of Gods. Neither had he meant otherwise if he had cited the words after the Gréek translation, and not Ieroms. For though it be in Gréeke, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of his eye, (as it is in Hebrewe, and in the tIn Bibliis Complutensib▪ & Regi…s Antuerp. & variis manuscript. Hontenii. & Francisci Luc. & text. excus. cum. Hieron. commentar. in Zachar. 2.best copies of Ieroms Latin too:) yet the word [his, foreign] is referred to [the Lord of hostes] whose care of his people the Prophet noteth by that spéech, in like sort as uDeut. 32.10.Moses had also doon before him. Wherefore if it agree not well in that sense to the purpose and drift of the Popes epistle, in which it is alleaged, as Turrian saith it doth not: then himselfe confesseth that not all the scriptures are there alleaged fitly. Which xPro epist. Pont. l. 3. c. 13. and other where often.he cannot abide the Centuries should say. But if this answere be good and allowable, that when those epistles of the Popes were published, the textes, which could not be alleaged so by them, were chaunged: then is it impossible to bring any reason, but you may shield them from it easily. For if there be a point of order in discipline, or doctrine in faith, or the state of times, or circumstances of persons and things whatsoeuer, that is disproued by writers and witnesses of that age, as there are infinite: you may say that it was not so in the epistles, but they who set them forth did alter that point. For example, in one of them which is fathered on yEpist. 2. ad Rufum aut Rusticum.Cornelius, appeales vntounto the See of Rome are approued. But zEpist 55. ad Cornelium. Statutum est omnibus nobis.Cyprian doth shew that Cornelius agreed with him and other Bishops, that causes should be ended where they began, without appeales.

Hart.

We shall neuer make an end if we stand on euerie particular that may be cauilled at. It sufficeth me that all which you can say is set downe in the Centuries, and that which they hauehave said is answered by Turrian. This is aPrincip. doctrin. l. 6. c. 15.Stapletons defense of those epistles: and I content my selfe with it.

Rainoldes.

Not all which they hauehave said is answered by Turrian: perhaps not this verie point about Cornelius. But if you like so well of Stapletons policie to lay all on Turrian: let vsus leaue his dealing therein against the Centuries to be considered by the iury. Whom I must request withall to consider of one reason more▪ which they shall neither finde in Turrian, nor in the Centuries.

Hart.

What reason is that?

Rainoldes.

The iudgement of thrée learned men of your owne side, Cusanus, the Cardinall; Bellarmin, the Iesuit; and Contius, the famous Lawier. For Cardinall bDe concordant. Cathol. l. 3. c. 2.Cusanus, saying, that peraduenture those epistles of Clemens and Ana…letus are counterfeit, vponupon the which they, who would exalt the See of Rome more then is expedient and seemely for the holy Church, doo ground them selues: addeth for proofe thereof, that if a man first did reade them ouer diligently, applying the state of their times to those epistles, and then were perfit in the workes of all the holy Fathers who liued vntill Austin, Ierom, and Ambrose, and in the actes of Councels where true and authenticall writinges are alleaged; he should finde this true, that neither are the said epistles mentioned in any of those writings, yea, and the epistles being applyed to the time of those holy men do betray them selues.

Hart.

Cusanus, when he wrote these thinges, was not Cardinall: neither doth he affirme it, but saith, [peraduenture:] and he mentioneth the epistles of Clemens and Anacletus onelyonly, not of all.

Rainoldes.

But his reasons, of the contents and witnesses, do touch them all: as doth his drift also. Nor saith he [peraduenture] of douting▪ but of modestie: for he addeth farther that 1Ex allegatis etiam in ipsis epistolis, ac a liis innumeris, ista pat…re possent, …uae hic superuacué pouerentur.things a great number doo proue it manifestly. And though he were not Cardinall then, yet he was Doctour of the Canon law, and Deane of a Cathedrall Church, and fit to be made Cardinall within a few yeares after. Neither spake he of hatred to the Sée of Rome, which he calleth the diuine, 2Omni laude su…erexcellen…simam.the most excellent in all praise, yea most superexcellent, the first, the chiefe See; and saith that she needeth not to helpe her selfe with these doutfull arguments, which are drawn out of those epistles and put in the decrees of Gratian. But if he were not Cardinall when he gaue that iudgement: yet Bellarmin was Iesuit when he confirmed it. For when he read at Rome of the Popes supremacie, and came to that argument of these epistles of the Popes: he said that Father Turrian a learned man had defended them to be their owne, but he thought the contrarie opinion to be truer.

Hart.

How know you that he saide so, when he read at Rome?

Rainoldes.

One of your owne friendes and felowes, cM. Rishton.who was present, told me he heard him say so. And I do the rather beléeue his report, because, whereas dIn Romani… praelectionib. controuer. 4. quaest. 5.Bellarmin him selfe hath set in writing the summe of those lectures, he saith though not altogether so much, yet in effect. For I will not deny (saith he) but there are some errours crept into them.

Hart.

But he addeth that certes he thinketh neuerthelesse that they are very ancient.

Rainoldes.

And why? because Isidore maketh mention of them. Which reason, that he therefore doth thinke them very ancient because there is mention made of them by Isidore, is as much in softer wordes, as if he saide, he thinketh them ancient, howbeit not so ancient as they are pretended. It may be that Bellarmin, if he were aduertised that Isidore is forged too, would thinke them lesse ancient by one degrée then yet he thought. But that which the Iesuit was loth to deale with ouer roughly: the Lawier, a man of better minde, and bolder spirit, doth plainely auouch. For he affirmeth it to be cléere and euident, that those epistles of the Popes, who were before Siluester, are all false and counterfeit. Now Siluester was Pope at the time of the Nicen Councell, aboue thrée hundred yeares after Christ. And so the exception which I made against your first band of Popes, who liued thrée hundred yeares after Christ, and vpward: you sée it is confirmed by a famous Lawier, a man of great iudgement, and of your owne religion.

Hart.

What famous Lawier is it? Or how doth he confirme it?

Rainoldes.

It is Antonius Contius, the kinges professor of the law in the vniuersitie of Burges: with whose notes (allowed and approued by the priuileges of the Spanish & French kinges) your Canon-law was *In the yere of… Christ. 1570.printed at Anwerpe by Plantin. In eDistinct. 16. c. Septuaginta. In Annot. Cont.one of those notes, he saith, that he hath brought 1Multas rationes.many reasons in his preface, by which he hath proued and 2Manifesté ostendi.shewed manifestly, that 3Omnes Pontificum qui Siluestrum praecesserunt decretales falsas esse.the epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester, are all false and counterfeit. Behold, he hath shewed it, not by one or two ghesses, but by many reasons; and that, manifestly.

Hart.

But what are the reasons, which he hath shewed it so by?

Rainoldes.

Nay, I am bound to kéepe counsell in that. For 4In praefatione …dduxi.the preface (wherin he brought those reasons) is not printed. Though I must cléere Plantin the printer from the faute. For I caused a friend of mine to aske of him, why it was not printed, and what became of it, whether a man might sée it or no. To whome he made answere, that the Censour, appointed to ouersee bookes to be allowed to the print, would not suffer it to passe; but what became of it, hee remembred not, nor knew how to procure it. They that doo euill, hate the light. There was somewhat in that preface, which the Censour would not that all men should see. But fCic. pro Clu…ent.the truth (saith Tully) which is pressed downe by many lewde men, doth rise vp often times by this one meanes: that either they, who are craftie to deceiue, are not bold to enterprise so much as they deuise; or they, who are bold enough to doo any thing, hauehave not wit and subtiltie to conuey their practises. Which consideration of a wise Oratour, the folly of your Censour hath proued to be true. For though he were bold enough to leaue out the preface of Contius: yet he had not craft enough to raze out that note which mentioneth the preface. And yet a litle after, (to sée the mischiefe of it how that should scape his handes,) he hath put in a note vnderunder Contius his name, which would hauehave helped well if he had razed out the other. For, gDistinct. 21. c. cleros. In Annot. Cont.vponupon a text of Pope Anacletus he hath made him say: I know that 5Quosdam istorum Pontificum a Petro proximé sequē tium decretales falsi insimulare.some affirme those epistles of the Popes who next succceded Peter to be false and counterfeit; but I would desire them to bring 6Maiorem probationem.better proofe: specially sith they are found in all the courses of canons that are extant, collected 7Ab Isidoro.by Isidore out of the booke of Damasus which was Bishop of Rome. This note was iuggled in well by the Censour, with this subscription, [Contius.] Pity, that he tooke not away the other note, where [Contius] is subscribed too.

Hart.

Why suspect you the Censour that he should make that note, and not Contius him selfe write it? You hauehave a lesson in S. h1. Cor. 13.7.Paul, that charitie is not suspicious.

Rainoldes.

Charitie is not sottish neither: I learne that lesson of him too. For as it is a vice to suspect vniustly: so it is no vertue to beleeue vnwisely. And S. Paul, who saith that charitie beleeueth all thinges: yet beléeued not that iAct. 23.16.they meant him well, of whom he vnderstood by his sisters sonne that they would lye in waite to kill him. Charitie beleeueth all thinges, which a wise and godly man should beléeue. But to beleeue that Contius wrote that note him selfe, were greater folly to the beleeuer, then charitie to the Censour. For how could it be that a learned man, the kinges professor of the law, should say concerning the same epistles, first, I hauehave shewed manifestly by many reasons that they are counterfeit: and anon, I know that some affirme them to be counterfeit; but I would desire them to bring better proofe. Chiefly sith the cause, that is added there why he desireth better proofe, is Isidores autoritie: 8Isidorus multa apocrypha & dubiae fidei inseruit.whom kIn praefat. Qui aut quot ante Gratianum canones ecclesiasticos collegerint.Contius (in that respect) doth discredit; which note is printed too. And afterwarde againe, on l6. q. 1. c. Beatus. 8. q. 1. c. Vnde. 30. q. 5. c. Iudicantem. In Annot.other textes of those epistles, he noteth sundrie pointes whereby it is manifest (he saith) that they are forged: and yet againe, on m30. q. 5. c. Aliter.other, he mentioneth the proofe thereof made in his preface: yea, and that is more, vponupon the same epistle of the same Anacletus, on which that counterfeit note was coyned, nDistinct. 99. c. Prouinciae.Contius againe noteth, this epistle is falsely fathered on Anacletus, 9Vt in praefatione monui.as I aduertised in my preface. Sée you not how rightly Tully did obserue, that if, either suttletie were bold, or boldnesse craftie, it would go hard with the truth? The truth which is oppugned by those epistles of the Popes should hauehave had one patrone lesse to speake for her, if your Censour had béene as politike to blot out the notes touching the preface, as he was hardie to leaue the preface out, and coine a new note against it. And yet perhaps he blotted out some notes too. But men, who deale with much, shall ouersée somewhat.

Hart.

You still suspect the worst. It might be the correctors faute and not the Censours. Or if the Censour did it, he did it of a good minde, because he thought that Contius was deceiued in it.

Rainoldes.

The likelyhood and presumption is not so much of the correctour, who vewing all the notes might hauehave left out the rest too, if he had béene the dooer: as it is of the Censour, who suffering not the preface to passe to the print for the Popes sake, may iustly be suspected that he would straine an ynch farther to helpe the Pope. But, you say, he did it of a good minde. But good mindes must learne to vse good meanes also. At least, he should hauehave doon as Frier Surius did: who, whereas in the olde edition of the Councels there were certaine thinges noted out of Cassiodore, Marianus Scotus, and Gregorie Haloander, touching the yeares of the Consuls who are named in the dates of those epistles of the Popes: Surius (in his new edition thereof) hath left out all those notes, oPraefat. ad sectorem. Conciliorum Tom. 1.yeelding this reason why hee left them out, because both the thing is darke of it selfe, & it is made more darke and intricate by their variance; in so much that Caluin seemeth on that occasion to hauehave reiected those epistles. In déede the Centurie-writers (whom Surius meant perhaps when he named Caluin) doo set downe that circumstance, of the yeare of the Consuls assigned in their dates, for a proofe that they be forged: and they confirme that proofe by those very notes that were set foorth with the epistles. For pCent. 3. cap. 7.many of the epistles hauehave the names of such Consuls, as neuer were Consuls together, or liued not then: qCent. 4. cap. 7.as appeereth by Marianus Scotus & others, yea, euen by the notes added to those epistles in the Tome of Councels. Which wordes might worke discredit to the Centurie-writers with them who sée the Councels in no edition but the last: for there are no such notes. And Surius, in leauing them out, hath answered well that reason of the Centurie-writers. Though he should hauehave answered it a greate deale better, if he had left out also the epistles them selues. For as long as they are extant: we shall not néede the notes vponupon their dates to control them. Yet as he dealt wisely in leauing out the notes, so he shewed honestie in telling men of it: that they may know there were notes before, which impaired the credit of the epistles; and if they list to sée them, they may seeke and finde them too. But the Censour, who fell vponupon the notes of Contius, hath shewed no such honestie. For neither hath he giuen any signification that he caused the preface to be left out; neither hath hee tolde vsus of an other edition where it might be found; and, that which is the worst, he hath made Contius to speake in maintenance of that which him selfe knew and had declared to be forged. All the which pointes it behooueth the iury to consider off; and not to weigh only the iudgement of Contius, or Bellarmin, or Cusanus, for the disproofe of those counterfeits on which you ground the Popes supremacie: but to thinke with them selues how many more of likelihood euen in the middest of Poperie hauehave spoken against them; yea, sundry peraduenture, who, (as their writings are printed now,) speake for them. For if in these dayes when men doo sift their dooings, Surius durst aduenture to leaue out notes already printed, and the Censour to suppresse things in printers hands that they may neuer come to light, yea, to write notes in the names of autours flat contrarie to their iudgement, & print them as their own too: what is it to be feared they did in former times, when there were few that would espie them? Or, if espie them, yet who so hardy to bewray them?

Hart.

The iudgement of Cusanus, and Bellarmin, and Contius, and the rest of our side, (if there were more who thought so,) may not disproue those epistles: séeing that themselues allow the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome.

Rainoldes.

So much the greater force they hauehave to disproue them: sith it is not likely that they would leaue this hold of that, which they fauour, if manifest truth and reason did not compell them thereunto.

Hart.

But why doo you bring the iudgement of our Cardinals, or Iesuits, or Lawiers herein against …: when, in as weightie a point against your selfe, you will not receiue them.

Rainoldes.

I gaue you the reason rIn the 1. Diuis. of this Chapt.before out ofthe scriptures, which cite the Poets so. But if you wil hauehave it confirmed by the Fathers, you know that sDiuin. institut.Lactantius, tDe praepa ratione euangelica.Eusebius, uAdue…sus gentes.Arnobius, and xClemens Alexandrinus, Iustinus Martyr, Tertullianus, Tatianus, & Augustinus.many more of them do bring the writings of Sibylla, and Orpheus, and Hermes, and other Gentiles against the Gentiles, whose iudgements they would not receiue against them selues. For, if Sibylla (saith▪ yContra Faustum Manich…. l. …3. c. …5.Austin) and Orpheus, and Hermes, and other ether Prophets, or Diuines, or wise men, or Philosophers of the Gentiles hauehave said true things touching god: that is of some force, not for vsus to embrace the autoritie of them, but to conuince by them the vanity of Gentiles when we shew that we doo worship that God of whom euen they hauehave spoken, who partly did teach, partly durst not for bidde their felow Gentiles to worship idoles. And it is writen in your z2. q. 7. c. Si haeteticus.law, that if a Catholike be in suite against an heretike, the testimony of an heretike is of force for the Catholike: but against the Catholike no testimonie is of force, sauing the testimonie of a Catholike onelyonly. The testimonies therefore of Cardinals, & Iesuits, and what soeuer Papistes, are of force against you, but not for you against vsus▪ Nether is ther caus… why you should aske rather why I bring their iudgements against the Popes epistles, and yet allow them not in the Popes supremacie: then why aExod. 3.22. & 12.35.the Israelites tooke iewels and furniture of gold and siluer of the Egyptians, when yet they forsooke their idoles and heauy burdens▪ And thus you sée what malte the soft fyer hath made for the first band of Popes, whom ether you named out of Stapleton, and Canus; or wrapped vp without names in the decrees of Gratian. HaueHave you any hope of better successe in the remnant of them: or will you muster new souldiers?

Hart.

You shall finde more valure in these then you looke for, as hotly as you call for new. For, the exceptions which you made against the second sort ofPopes are naught doutlesse: to say nothing ofthe third.

Rainoldes.

You doo well to say nothing ofthe third sort. But what mislike you in my exceptions to the other?

Hart.

You should aske me rather what I mislike not. For I mislike all that you hauehave said therein. First, that they auouch not the Popes supremacie. Which who would say, but you? For it is too cléere that Innocentius the first, Leo the first, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and S. Gregorie, (whom all you comprehend in the second sort of Popes,) auouch it as fully and in as ample maner, as any Popes sith them hauehave doon.

Rainoldes.

It is too cléere they doo not. And that will I proue by the third sort ofPopes, in the same places, that your selfe alleaged out ofthe bc. Significasti. de electione. c. Antiqua. de priuilegiis. c. Fundamenta. de electione. In Sexto.decretals, and cEx…ra. c. Vnam sanctam. de maioritate & obedientia.extrauagants, and the dSub Leon. decimo. Ses…i…n. 11.Councell of Lateran. For Paschal the second, Innocentius the third, Nicolas the third, Boniface the eighth, and Leo the tenth, (the autours ofthe chapters and textes which you quoted,) doo claime much therein, that nether Innocentius the first, nor Leo the first, nor Gelasius, nor Vigilius, nor Pelagius, nor Gregorie, nor any of that sort claimed.

Hart.

What one point, that toucheth the substance of the Popes supremacie?

Rainoldes.

First, their soueraine power ouer all Princes, that they may depose them: and that themselues are subiect to none, not to the Emperour. For ec. Fundamenta. de election. in Sexto.Nicolas the third saith, that the monarchie of both powers (he meaneth ecclesiasticall and ciuill) belongeth in the citie of Rome to the Pope by the donation of Constantine: who thought it vnmete that an earthly Emperour should hauehave dominion there, where God had set the Prince of Priestes. And fExtra. c. Vnam▪ sanctam. de maioritate & obedientia.Boniface the eighth proclaimeth himselfe to be set ofGod ouer nations, & kingdomes, to plucke vp, and to roote out, and so forth, euen to iudge the Princes of the earth. Which ordinance of Boniface (renewed, and approued by gIn Concil. Lateran. Session. 11.Leo the tenth,) hath béene put in practise accordingly by sundry ofthem. Many kings, and Emperours deposed by their sentence (as hSteuch. Eugus bin. de falsa donat. Constantin. lib. 2. Sixt. Senens. biblioth. sanct. l. 6. annot. 72.your owne writers boast) hauehave felt the proofe thereof: and we hauehave séene lately their will in our Quéene, and *King Henry the eighth deposed by Pope Paule the third: as he Maiestie by Pius the fifth▪ Onuphr. de vitis Pont. in Paulotert. Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4.her father of famous memorie, though God hath blessed where they cursed, and held them vp whom they deposed. But the second sort of Popes were so farre from claiming this power ouer al Princes, that they claimed it not ouer anie. Neither were they monarches of the ciuil power in Rome, (as I iChapt. 7. Diuision 7.hauehave proued,) by Constantines donation: but subiect to the Emperour, to whom that soueraintie belonged, as they acknowledged. For kLeo epist. 47. & 48. ad Martianum Aug. Tom. 1. Concilior.Leo the first, when the Emperour Martianus had summoned the general Councel of Chalcedon, and sent out his writs for him and other Bishops (as lEuseb. de vit. Constantin. l. 3. c. 6. Socrat. hist. ecclesiast. l. 5. c. 8. & l. 7. c. 33. Leo epist. 12.16. & 23. ad Theodosium August.Emperours vsed) to come thither: although he nether liked the place, nor the time, appointed by the Emperour; yet did he according as hee was commaunded. The obedience of the rest I néede not shew in particular. The dutiful submission of mRegistr. lib. 2. epist. 61. lib. 4. epist. 31. lib. 5. ep. 6…. lib. 6. ep. 6. & caetGregorie to the Emperour Mauricius, his Lord, as still he calleth him▪ may be a generall token of it. But when the third sort of Popes bore the sway, the state was turned vpside-downe. In so much that whereas the Pope said before, 1Piisaimus Dominus noster. Grego. Regist. lib. 4. ep. 32.our most godly Lord the Emperour: now must the Emperour say, yea, and be sworne 2Sanctissimo Domino nostro Domino Nicolao diuina prouidenti… Papae quinto ego Fridericus rex Romanorum promitto & iuro. Cerem. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. ….to our most holy Lord the Pope. And whereas the Emperour before did summon Cou…cels, & called the Pope vntounto them: now the Pope denieth y^• he may deale therewith; and neither him selfe obeyeth, nor suffereth others to obey him. When nLi…r. Pauli tert. Pont. Max. ad Carolum quint. Whereof the summe is in sleīdan, lib. 16 y^e whole copie, in Caluin, Opusculor. par…. 2. class. 1.Charles the fifth (in the assembly of Spier) had mentioned a general Councel, and a national, and order to be taken for matters of religion in the Imperiall assembly: he was reproued by Paule the third for touching those things without naming the Pope, to whom the soueraine power (he said) of gathering Councels, & ordering affaires of the Church, is giuen. Nay, when oOnuphr. de ruis Pon…. in Paulo t…rt.the same Charles requested most earnestly that the Councell, called by the Pope to Trent, might be kept there, & not at Bononia, whither the Pope (of policie) had remoued it: the same Paule reiected his earnest request, and would by no meanes yéelde thereto. So plainely in sight, so greatly in weight, doo the later Popes differ from the former, in the chiefest point of their supremacie ouer all, and being subiect vntounto no man.

Hart.

It may be that the Popes of the second sort would not, of modestie; or could not, for occasions, claime their ful supremacie.

Rainoldes.

You should speake more truely and Christianly of them, if you said, they thought it not to be their right. But would not, or could not, your own answere graunteth that they did not claime it. Wherefore sith their supremacie implyeth soueraine power ouer kings and Emperours, as it is defined by the last sort of Popes: the second, who were subiect to the ciuill powers, and claimed no such soueraintie, auouched not the Popes supremacie.

Hart.

Yet ouer the spirituall powers they auouched it, that is, ouer Bishops. And that is more then you wil yéelde too.

Rainoldes.

Though lesse then you lay claime too. But nether ouer Bishops did they auouch that which your last sort of Popes doth, and toucheth their supremacie most. For p…. Significasti. de electione.Paschal requireth Archbishops to be sworne, that they shall be faithful and obedient to him. Yea the same othe of fealtie and obedience qc. Antiqua. de priuilegiis.Innocentius the third exacteth of the Patriarkes of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioche, and Ierusalem. Where the second sort of Popes, as namely rRegistr. l. 4. epist. 36. & l. 7. i…dict. 1. ep. 30.Gregorie, acknowledged the Patriarkes to be his equals, not his subiectes▪ And they were so farre from offering that violence, and iniury to them, that they required not any such othe, no, not of the meanest Pastor in their diocese.

Hart.

Yes, that they did: as you may sée by Pelagius. Who decréed and ordeined, that if any Metropolitan did not send to Rome within three monethes of his consecrtion to take his othe, and receiue the pall, he should be depriued of his place and dignitie.

Rainoldes.

Pelagius? Where is that decree?

Hart.

In the Canon-law: whence it is alleaged by sDe episcoporum iurisdict. & Pont. Max. autoritate responsū. Proposition. 5.Franciscus Vargas, a notable learned man, king Philips counsellour and embassadour to Pope Pius the fourth. He, tPaul. Manut. prae…at. ad responsum Fr. Vargas.when the question of the iurisdiction of Bishops and the Popes autoritie could not be well agreed on in the Councell of Trent, was called by the Pope to a consultation with the chiefest Cardinals. Where he spake his iudgement of the point so wisely, that it was thought fit his answere should be set in print. Therein, amongst many reasons and autorities for the Popes supremacie, he saith that Pelagius declared it by this decree, in that hee would hauehave all Metropolitans sworne to him.

Rainoldes.

This decree was made by a Popish Lawier, not by Pope Pelagius. For uDistinct. 100. c. Quoniam.Pelagius, least that he should rashly giuegive consent to the allowing of any Metropolitan who were not sound in faith, required them *Exponere fidem suam.to make profession of their faith, and so to send for the pall, that is to say, for his consent, whereof the pall was a token. A Lawier of Paris, one xDefens. in Molinaeum pro Pontifice Ma… imo.Remundus Rufus, to frame hereof a stronger weapon for y^e Pope, (in whose defense he wrote,) hath chaunged the wordes [ad exponendam fidem suam,] into these wordes, [dandae fidei causa:] & so by dare fidem, in steed of fidem exponere, he proueth that Pelagius would hauehave their othes to the Pope, whereas he required profession of their faith in Christ. Now, Franciscus Vargas, alleaging (as I ghesse) this text on Rufus credit, (though he name him not,) did mistake the matter; the rather, through a preiudice conceiued of the later times. For, that Metropolitans should professe Christ, it was a thing required then. But, that yc. Ego N. extra. de iur…iu…ando.they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy, it is a wéede that grew …e or six hundred yeares after.

Hart.

That they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy, it is though a newer yet a néedfull order: least men should fall away from vnitie and obedience of the Sée of Rome. But thus much yet Pelagius decréed, as you graunt, that they should al make profession of their faith to him, & be allowed by his consent.

Rainoldes.

All, within his diocese: not all, throughout the world.

Hart.

Nay he saith, if any, if any Metropolitan send not vntounto the See of Rome, to shew his faith, and receiue the pall: let him be depriued. Behold, he speaketh generally.

Rainoldes.

So the States of England make their actes of Parlament: if any man doo this or that. Which yet they meane not of men in Rome and Turkie; but of all men within the Quéenes dominion.

Hart

But the whole world is the Popes diocese. And that he meant of al Metropolitans therein, it is the more likely, because that all Bishops were then confirmed by the Pope, and it was thought necessarie that they should be so. Whereof there are euident and notable examples, (as D zPrincip. doctrin. lib. 4. cap. 20.Stapleton sheweth,) in aEpist. 33. & 34. & 40. & 54. & 55.Leo the great, about the election of Anatolius the Patriarke of Constantinople, and bEpist. 68.Proterius the Patriarke of Alexandria: in cLib. 7. cap. 8.Sozomen, and dLib. 5. cap. 9.Theodoret, about Nectarius also elected by the whole Councell, and yet to be confirmed by Damasus: in eLib. 4. epist. 34.Gregorie the great about the Bishop of Salonae, who was confirmed by the Emperours, he being not made priuie to it; a thing that neuer happened vnderunder any Christian Prince before, saith Gregorie. Yea Bishops newly chosen were wont to send letters (called synodicall) to the Pope: in which they made profession of the faith they held, and so declared their agreement with the Church of Rome. Such letters fLeo epist. 68.Proterius, the Patriarke afore named of Alexandria, sent to Leo; gHuius epist. meminit Photius in sua bibliotheca.Sophronius, the Patriarke of Ierusalem, to Pope Honorius; hTurrian. pro …pist. Pont lib. 2. cap. 4.Nicephorus, the Patriarke of Constantinople, to Leo the third; and Peter after him, to Leo the ninth.

Rainoldes.

But, as other Patriarkes did send vntounto the Popes such letters of conference, whereby they made profession of their faith to him, and shewed their agreement with the Church of Rome: in like sort the Pope was wont to make profession of his faith to them, and shew his consent in religion with their Churches. For iRegistr. lib. 1. ep. 4 & 24. & 25.Gregorie the great wrote so to Iohn the Patriarke of Constantinople, to Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria, to Gregorie and Anastasius the Patriarkes of Antioche, to Iohn the Patriarke of Ierusalem: and kIohan. Di… in vita Gregor. lib. 2. cap. 3. & 5.this he did according to the ancient custome of his predecessours, amongst whom was Leo. Wherefore the preeminence of Leo was no greater in confirming Patriarkes of Constantinople, and Alexandria: then was their preeminence in confirming him. For as he allowed not them for lawfull Bishops, mLeo epist. 3…. & 38. de Anastasio, ep. 67. de Proterio.vntill by their letters of conference he knew them to be sound in faith: so nGreg. lib. 5. ep. 64. & lib. 7. ep. 53. & Io. Diacon…s, in vita Gregor. l. 4. c. 23neither were they wont to allow of any, of whose faith they were not enformed in the same maner. As for the example in Sozomen & Theodoret, that Nectarius elected by the whole Councell was yet to be confirmed by Damasus: therein your Doctour playeth with Sozomen and Theodoret. For oLib. 7. cap. 8.Sozomen neither saith it, nor maketh any shew of saying it, not as much as by naming Damasus. pLib. 5. cap. ….Theodoret setteth downe the letters writen by the Councell to Damasus, Ambrose, Britto, and other Bishops of the west: but they disproue that priuilege of the Popes prerogatiue, which Stapleton would proue by them. For he alleageth them to shew that the Pope had *T…ndem. A… hibita tandem est episcoporū omnium per Romanum Pontificem necessaria confirmatio. Staplet. lib. 4. cap. 20.at length (at that time) a necessarie consent in the confirming of all Bishops more then other Bishops, yea then him selfe before had. Whereas the letters mention the consent of Ambrose, Britto, and the rest, no lesse then the consent of Damasus: and they craue their common consent in like sort to the confirming of Nectarius, as in former time qSynod. Africana apud Cyprian. ep. 68. ad eccles. Legion. Astur. & Emer. Cyprian. ep. 69. ad Florentium. Ambros. ep. 82.all Bishops were confirmed (yea, rCorne…u…, in Cyprian. ep. 45. ad Cornelium, & ep. 52. ad Antonianum.the Pope too) by the consent ech of others, for better keeping of the faith, and fostering of louelove amongst them. So the rest of your proofes import an equalitie betweene all Bishops at the first, and afterwarde betweene all Patriarkes. The onelyonly example that hath any kinne with the decrée of Pope Pelagius for his superioritie euer Metropolitans, is that out of Gregorie touching the Bishop of Salonae, sGregor. lib. 2. indict. 11. ep. 8a Metropolitan citie in the countrie of Dalmatia. For tEpist. 22.he was accustomed in déede to be confirmed by the consent of the Pope, as of his Archbishop, & uLib. 7. iudict. 2. epist. 81.to receyue a pall from him. But thereof to conclude that all Metropolitans throughout the whole world were likewise subiect to the Pope; it hath as much reason, as if you should conclude that the Quéene of England appointeth Lieutenants throughout all Christendome, because she appointeth a Lord Deputie in Ireland. You are deceiued, M. Hart, if you thinke the Pope was swolne so bigge in the time of Pelagius. His dropsy had made him to drinke vp much, but not all. He was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese, but he was yet but an Archbishop. He was not vniuersal Pope, & Patriarke of y^e whole world.

Hart.

Your speech is absurd, and doth confute it selfe, in séeking to confute the Pope. For if he had but a diocese, how was he an Archbishop? Sith a diocese is y^e charge committed to a Bishop: an Archbishop, hath a prouince. And if he were but an Archbishop how had he Metropolitans vnderunder him? Whereas a Metropolitan, and an Archbishop, is all one. Beside that, you graunted him to be a Patriarke: for els the other Patriarkes must be his superiours, to whom you made him equall. So while you striue against him, and go about to bring him vnderunder, to bereue him of the supremacie: you speak as though you were bereft of sense and reason, and knew not what to say of him.

Rainoldes.

In déed, as the names of [Archbishop] and [diocese] are vsed in our dayes, and hauehave beene of some writers in ancient times also: my spéech may séeme absurd, who say that the Pope was but Archbishop of a diocese, when he was Patriarke as I graunt. But after the language that was then receiued when the second sort of Popes were at the best, I speake the wordes of sense and reason. For Iustinian the Emperour, who (as it is requisite in penning of lawes) is wont to keepe the proper and vsuall spéech of his time, (and *It began in the yeare of Christ 527. and continued til …65 Sigebert. in Chron.his raigne did fall into the time we treate off,) xNouell. 137. …. Non solum.ordeined, that if an Elder or Deacon were accused, his Bishop should hauehave the hearing of the matter; if a Bishop, his Metropolitan; if a Metropolitan, his Archbishop. And yforeign. C. de episcopali a…dientia.againe he prouided for the ecclesiasticall causes of clergie men, that first they should be brought to the Bishop of the citie; from the Bishop of the citie, to the Metropolitan; frō the Metropolitan, to the Synode of the prouince; frō the Synode of the prouince, to the Patriarke of the diocese: and a Patriarke is all one with an Archbishop, zNouell. 123. …. Si quis autem. §. Interdi …it. §. Si qui. veró. … pas…im▪in him. Whereby you may perceiue, both that an Archbishop had Metropolitans vnderunder him: and that a diocese was more then a prouince. In which respect I called it a Princely diocese, to distinguish it from a Lordly, that you might know I meant a diocese of a larger sise, then as the word is taken for a Bishops circuite. But that you may hauehave the cléerer light to sée the truth of mine answere, and thereby to perceue how the Pope encroched on Bishops by degrées, vntill of an equal he became a soueraine, first ouer a few, next ouer many, at last ouer all: I must fetch the matter of Bishops, Metropolitans, and Archbishops somewhat higher, and shew how Christian cities prouinces, and dioceses, were allotted to them. First therefore, when aAct. 14.23.Elders were ordeined by the Apostles in eueryevery Church, bTit. 1.5.through eueryevery citie, cAct. 20.28.to *foreign, that is▪ to doo the duetie of a pastour to it.feede the flocke of Christ, whereof the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers: they, to the intent they might the better doo it by common counsell and consent, did vse to assemble themselues and méete togither. In the which méetings, for the more orderly handling and concluding of things pertaining to their charge: they those one amongst them to be the President of their companie, and moderatour of their actions. As in the Church of Ephesus, though it had dAct. 20.17.sundry Elders and Pastours to guide it: yet amongst those sundrie was there one chiefe, whom our Sauiour calleth eReu. 2.1.the Angel of the Church, and writeth that to him which by him the rest should know. And this is he whom afterward in the primitiue Church the Fathers called Bishop. For as the name of f1. Cor. 4.1.Ministers, common to all them who serue Christ in *Luk. 12.42.the stewardship of the mysteries of God, that is, in preaching of the gospell, is now by the custome of our English spéech restrained to Elders who are vnderunder a Bishop: so the name of g1. Tim. 3.2. Tit. 1.7. Act. 20.28.Bishop common to all Elders and Pastours of the Church, was then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him who had the Presidentship ouer Elders. Thus are certaine Elders reproued by hEpist. 13. Presbyteris & Diaconis.Cyprian; for receiuing to the communion them who had fallen (in time of persecution,) before the Bishops had aduised of it with them and others. And iEuseb. hist. eccles. l. 6. c. 42.Cornelius writeth that the Catholike Church committed to his charge had sixe and fortie Elders, and ought to hauehave but one Bishop. And both of them being Bishops, the one of Rome, the other of Carthage, kCornelius Cypriano. Ep. 46. Cyprianus Presbyteris & diaconis. Ep. 6.doo witnesse of them selues that they dealt in matters of their Churches lCyprian. ep. 35 Cornelius ep. 46. apud Cyprianum.gouernment by the consent and counsell of the companie of Elders, or the Eldership, as they both (after S. m1. Tim. 4.14.Paule) doo call it.

Hart.

Elders, and Eldership: you meane presbyteros, and presbyterium, The fourth Diuisiō.that is to say Priestes, and Priesthood. But these new fangled names came in by your English translations of the new testament: which (as *In the Annotations of the Rhemish Testament. Act. 14.22.our translation doth iustly note them for it) hauehave changed Priestes into Elders of falshood and corruption, and that of farther purpose then the simple can sée. Which is, to take away the office of sacrificing, and other functions of Priestes, proper in the new testament to such as the Apostles often, and the posteritie in maner altogither doo call Priestes, presbyteros. Which word doth so certainely imply the authoritie of sacrificing, that it is by vse made also the onelyonly English of sacerdos, your selues as well as we so translating it in all the olde and new testament: though you cannot be ignorant that Priest commeth of presbyter, and not of sacerdos: and, that antiquitie for no other cause applied the signification of presbyter to sacerdos, but to shew that presbyter is in the new law, that which sacerdos was in the olde: the Apostles abstaining from this and other like olde names at the first, and rather vsing the wordes Bishops, Pastours, and Priestes, because they might be distinguished from the gouernours and sacrificers of Aarons order, who as yet in the Apostles time did their olde functions still in the temple. And this to be true, and that to be a Priest is to be a man appointed to sacrifice: your selues calling sacerdos alwaies a Priest must néedes be driuen to confesse. Albeit your folly is therein notorious, to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos, and to take it from presbyter, whereof it is deriued properly not onelyonly in English but in other languages,Presbyter. Priest. …rebstre. …rete. both French, and Italian: which is to take away the name that the Apostles and Fathers gaue to the Priestes of the Church, and to giuegive it wholy and onelyonly to the order of Aaron.

Rainoldes.

Wholy and onelyonly to the order of Aaron? Nay, then I can abide your Rhemists no longer, if their mouthes do so runne ouer. For we giuegive it also to the order of Melchisedec, n…s. 110.4. Heb. 7.11.after the which our Sauiour is is a Priest for euer. And they who charge vsus with falshood and corruption in that we call the Ministers of the gospell, Elders: are guiltie themselues of heresie and blasphemie in that they call them Priestes. For they doo not call them Priestes in respect of the o1. Pet. ….spirituall sacrifices of pHeb. 13.15. Reu. 5.8.prayers and qHeb. 13.16.good workes, which Christians of al sortes are bound to offer vntounto God, and thence are called rPhil. 4..8. 1. Pet. 2.5. Reu. 1.6. & 5.10.Priestes in scripture: but they call them Priestes in respect of the carnall and external sacrifice of the cursed Masse, wherein they pretend that they offer Christ vnderunder the formes of bread and wine to God his Father, a sacrifice propiciatorie, that is, of force to pacifie God, and reconcile him vntounto men. So, whereas the scripture doth teach that sHeb. 7.23.one Priest, by tHeb. 10.12.one sacrifice, uHeb. 7.27. & 9.28.once offered, that is, our Sauiour Christ, by giuing himself to death vponupon the crosse hath reconciled God vntounto vsus, and sanctified vsus for euer: the doctrine of Rhemes ordeineth many Priestes, to offer vp often, whether *The same, as they say in their Annotations on Heb. 10.11. An other. as they handle it, on Heb. 9.12. Which may be further perceiued by D. Allen, de Eucharist. sacrific. cap. 10. & 23. whence the faltering speeches of the Rhemists flow.the same sacrifice that Christ, or an other, they speake staggeringly, but to offer it often. As though there were yet left xHeb. 10. ver. 18.an offering for sinne after the death of Christ: or his pretious bloud were of no greater value then yver. 4.the blood of buls and goates, zver. 2.which were offered often, because they could not purge sinnes. And this …bomination they séeke to maintaine by the name of Priestes, sith Priestes are men (they say) appointed to sacrifice, and that name was giuen to them by the Apostles. In saying whereof they doo play the Sophisters: and that with greater art then the simple can sée. Which is, in that they vse our English word [Priest] after a dooble sort: the one, as it is deriued from presbyter; the other, as it signifieth the same that sacerdos. For Priest, as it signifieth a man appointed to sacrifice, is 1foreign.sacerdos, and not presbyter. The name which the Apostles giuegive a Minister of the gospell, is 2foreign.presbyter, and not sacerdos. Which difference of wordes, necessarie to be obserued for the distinction of thinges betwéene the Ministers of the old and the new testament, as the Apostles kept it in the tongue in which the new testament is writen, so they who translated the testament into English were to kéepe it also. Wherefore it was not of falshood and corruption, but of religious zeale of truth, that they called presbyter, an Elder, not a Priest. For sith the custome of our English spéech hath made the name of Priest proper to a man appointed to sacrifice, such as were the 1foreign.Priests after the order of Aaron in the olde testament, the Priest after the order of Melchisedec in the new: the Ministers of the gospell, ordeined, not (as Christ) to sacrifice to God, but to féede Gods people with his worde and sacraments, must hauehave an other name 2foreign.according to the scripture: and our English word, expressing that in scripture, is the name of Elders. But you by confusion of these sundry names doo séeke confusion of the things: and as théeues are wont to change the markes of thinges which they hauehave stollen; so you, to make the Priesthood of Christ séeme your owne, doo change names, as markes of thinges which they signifie. For in stéede of that which we call [an Elder] you would hauehave [a Priest,] that your Massing Priestes may be accounted aSo the Rhemists speake of them: in their Annotat. Heb. ….12.Priestes after the order of Melchisedec, as Christ is a Priest: and so your sacrifice of the Masse be thought the soueraine sacrifice, (as bD. Allen, in his Apologie of the English Seminar. chap. 1.your Maister calleth it,) wherein Christ is offered vntounto God his father. In the which conueiance, if you painted it with nought but colours of your owne: the matter were lesse. For, cforeign. Arist. in repre…en…. Sophist.the abusing of one name applied vntounto sundry thinges was a common shift of sophisters among the heathens. And you are to be borne with, if, hauing no better cause then they had, sometimes you aduenture on the shiftes that they did. But to abuse the credit of the Apostles to this sophistrie, and say that they gaue the name of Priestes to Pastours of the Church of Christ: that is a faulte that cannot be excused. For seeing our language doth meane by [Priests] sacrificers, which in their language are called foreign and they neuer gaue the name of foreign to Pastours of the Christian Church: it foloweth that they gaue them not the name of Priests. Or if you replie, they gaue them that name because they called thē foreign, whence our English name of Priests is deriued: yet you cannot say they called them Priestes, as the name of Priest hath a relation to sacrifice: and therfore that name is nothing to the Masse, which you would proue by it. For so the word [Priest] must yet hauehave two meaninges: the one of foreign, the other of foreign. Wherof the one is giuen by the Apostles: but doth not implie autoritie to sacrifice. The other doth imply autoritie to sacrifice: but is not giuen by the Apostles,

Hart.

But sith the name of Priest is properly deriued from the word presbyter, foreign. Presb…er. Priest. Prebstre. ….or (as it is in Gréeke) foreign, not only in English, but in other languages, both French, and Italian: why did not your translatours kéepe this according to the Gréeke, and deuise an other for foreign, that is sacerdos, if they would néedes distinguish them by different names. For it is (as I said) a notorious folly to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos, and to take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly.

Rainoldes.

If our translatours had béene Lords of wordes, and might hauehave forced men to take them in what sense they would: then had you spoken reason. For dTyndal, in the obedience of a Christian man.he, whom others folowe… in our English translations, did note that if Antichrist had not deceyued vsus with vnknowne and straunge termes, to bring vsus into confusion & superstitious blindenesse, a Priest, that is, a sacrificer as Aaron was a Priest and sacrificed for the people, should hauehave had some other name in English then Priest. Which he spake in respect that the name of Priest, as it came from presbyter, betokening a Minister of the new testament, should not hauehave beene giuen to the Ministers of the olde, who differ, as in function, so in name, by scripture. But you, in whose eyes our folly is notorious, for that we giuegive the name of Priest to sacerdos, and take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly: what say you (I pray) for your owne translation in the fourth of the Actes, eThe Rhe…i… translation, Act. 4.13.where it is saide of Peter and Iohn the Apostles, that they were men vnlettered and of the vulgar sort.

Hart.

Why? What faute finde you with our translation in that?

Rainoldes.

I finde not any faute; but I would know of you why you call them [men of the vulgar sort,] and not rather [idiotes:] sith in the Gréeke text the worde is foreign, in Latin idiotae.

Hart.

That were a profane terme for the Apostles, who were indued with heauenly wisedome.

Rainoldes.

It were so in deede. But if the deriuation of wordes must be folowed in translating autours: that terme should hauehave béene giuen them. For the name of idiot is properly deriued from the 1foreign.Gréeke or 2Idiota.Latin, not onelyonly in English but in other languages, both 3Idiot.French and 4Idiota.Italian, and (if that helpe) the 5Ydiota.Spanish, 6I dio….Dutch, and 7foreignSyriake too. Yea it cometh neerer in eueryevery one of these to the Latin worde of the olde translation (which you pretend to folow,) then the name of Priest in any of them doth to presbyter.

Hart.

But the worde in English hath not the same meaning that it hath in Latin; and in translating thinges the sense must …e kept. Nor is it to bee marked so much whence a worde is properly deriued, as what it doth signifie. Now it doth signify that which vsually men vnderstand by it. For the consent of men taking a worde for this or that, doth make it to signify that for which they take it, as fDe interpret.Aristotle sheweth. Who frameth thereupon a rule, gTopico…. l. 2.that we must call thinges by those names, by which the common people calleth them. Wherefore sith the name of idiot in English is taken for a foole, or sot, and the Latin idiota where it is vsed in scripture doth signify the vnlearned, such as the vulgar sort of men: we hauehave translated it the vulgar, and not idiot, according to the meaning not the deriuing of it. Neither may you therefore charge vsus with varying from the Latin text: which, as we pretend, so we do folow faithfully. For whereas S. 1. Cor. 14.16.Paul saith to the Corinthians, If thou blesse in the spirit, how shall he that supplyeth the place of the vulgar, say Amen vponupon thy blessing? in Latin, for the vulgar, it is idiotae. Which word if we should hauehave translated, the idiot: we should hauehave doon iniury to the common sort of rude vnlearned men, whom it doth betoken, as you must néedes acknowledge, who translate it the vnlearned, as wee doo the vulgar.

Rainoldes.

True. But you may sée then how wise your Rhemists are, who charge vsus with notorious folly becau…e we giuegive the name of Priest to sacerdos, and not to presbyter. For as the name of idiot, doth come from idiota, but is taken for a foole: so the name of Priest is deriued from presbyter, but signifieth a sacrificer by custome of our English speech. Wherefore if your reason doo proue that all Pastors of the Christian Church must be called Priestes, and hauehave autoritie to sacrifice; because they are presbyter…: it will proue as well that all vnlearned Christians must be called idiotes, and may be begged for fooles, because they are idiotae. Which if you dare not say of vnlearned Christians, though in very truth you deale with them as idiotes when you make such reasons to approue your Masse & Massing Priestes vntounto them: learne, by discharging your selues in the one, to cléere vsus of notorious folly in the other. For sith in translating thinges (as you confesse) the sense must bee kept, and the sense of wordes is that which vsually men vnderstand by them, and by the worde Priest men vnderstand sacerdos, that is to say, a man appointed to sacrifice: it foloweth thereof that our translatours did their dutie, in giuing the name of Priests to them onelyonly, to whom the Priestly function in scripture doth appropriate it. As for your Rhemists who still doo translate sacerdos a Priest, as graunting that we hauehave no other English wo…d for it, and yet translate presbyter by the same worde too: they do ioyne together that which God hath seuered; and the wordes, which the holy Gost hath distinguished, they wittingly confound. Wherein they doo lewdly abuse the simple Christians, who are vnskilful in the tongues, to make them in louelove with the whorish sacrifice of the idolatrous Masse; and alienate their mindes from the true religion professed in the Church of England. For the name of Priest, as it hath relation to sacrifice, is sacerdos: which worde your iCon cil. Trident. session. 2▪ cap. 1.2.3.6. & 7. can. 2. & 8.Trent-fathers doo therefore vse in handling the sacrifice of the Masse. Now because the name of 1foreign.sacerdos is not giuen to the Ministers of the gospell in the new testament: your Rhemists make 2foreign.the name, that is giuen them, the same in *Priest.English with sacerdos. To the intent, that the simple, not seeing the sleight, may conceiue thereby that ministers of the gospell are Priestes ordeined to sacrifice: and so may loth our Ministers, who neither doo sacrifice, nor list to be called Priestes; and may embrace your Priestes, who professe them selues to be Priestes, yea Masse priestes, and are sent to sacrifice, as it is shewed in kThe Apolog. of the English Semin. chapt. 6.your Apologie of the English Seminaries.

Hart.

That learned Apology, which D. Allen wrote in the defense of our Seminaries, doth iustly blame your new pulpits, (the very chaires of the scorneful,) for calling vsus by that terme merily or mockingly.Psalm. 1. For the Church of God knoweth no other Priests, neither hath Christ instituted any other order of Priests, but of these▪ whom contemptuously you doo call Masse-priests.

Rainoldes.

So D. Allen saith. But he proueth neither Priestes nor Masse, by scripture: vnlesse the Masse be the chaire; and the Priestes be the scornefull.

Hart.

Though he alleage not the scripture there to proue them, yet hath he done it other where: as in his Latin treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse, and in our Annotations on the testament in English, wherein his hand was chiefest. *The Rhemis… Annotations on Heb. 7.23.For Esay doth specially prophecy of the Priestes of the new testament (as S. Ierom declareth vponupon the same place) in these words: lEsai. 61.6.You shall be called the 1foreign.Priestes of God, the 2foreign.Ministers of our God shall it be saide vntounto you. And as here the Ministers of God are called Priestes, in that very terme which your selfe confesse hath a relation to sacrifice: so, that they did sacrifice, you may perceiue too by the mAct. 13.2.Actes of the Apostles, where it is writen of Prophets and Doctors in the Church at Antioche, that they were ministring to our Lord. For 3foreign.the Gréeke signifieth that they were sacrificing: and so Erasmus translated. Whereby it is meant that they did say Masse: and the Gréeke Fathers hereof had their name Liturgie, which Era…mus translateth Masse, saying Missa Chrysostomi. Howbeit we translate it, ministring, and not sacrificing, or saying Masse, though wee might: if we would (as you doo) boldly turne what text we list, and flée from one language to another for the aduantage of our cause. But we kéepe our text: as the translatours of the scriptures should doo most religiously.

Rainoldes.

Your nVulga…. translat. ministrantibus.text then doth say, that the Prophets & Doctors at Antioche were ministring ▪ but you, to proue the Masse, doo reproue your text. For if the Gréeke signifie that they were sacrificing, and your text translated the Gréeke into Latin: how did your text kéepe his text, when he translated it, not sacrificing but ministring? Will you say that the autour of your old translation (oConcil. Tridentin. session. 4. which onelyonly is approued by your men as authenticall) did not performe that dutie which the translators of the scriptures ought most religiously? You doo so for aduantage. But in this point you doo him iniurie. For though the worde may (by consequent) import to sacrifice, when sacrifice is a seruice pertaining vntounto them whose ministerie it betokeneth, as where it is spoken of 4foreign. Num. 18.6.Leuites and 5foreign. Heb. 10.11.Priestes: yet doth it properly signifie to minister, either in publike function (after pOf foreign, and foreign.the originall thereof) or in any; as magistrates are called 6foreign. Rom. 13.6.the ministers of God, and Angels are saide to be 7foreign. Hebr. 1.14.ministring spirits, and the Gentiles are willed 8foreign. Rom. 15.27.to minister vntounto the Iewes in relieuing of their necessitie. In so much that the learnedst of your owne translators, Isidorus Clarius, and Arias Montanus, who both hauehave turned the new testament out of Gréeke into Latin, qIsidor. Clar. 1564. Venet.the one approued by the Deputies of the Trent-councel, rTom. 8. Regior. Biblior. 1572. Antuerp.the other by the Doctors of Louan, doo both of them translate it in this very place of the Actes of the Apostles not sacrificing, but ministring; which their affection to the Masse would hauehave béene loth to doo, vnlesse the truth had forced them to it. How much the more shamefull is the demeanour of your Rhemists, who, where they carp vsus, as leauing the Greeke for the aduantage of our cause, them selues for the aduantage of their owne cause doo clip the meaning of the Gréeke: against, I say not, the iudgement of sEtymolog. in foreign. Sui…as, in foreign. Bud. Henr. St.Grammarians, euen tLexic. Graec. Tom. 6. Regior. Biblior.such as seeke to helpe them most, but against the common vse of it in scripture, against their olde text, against their new translations, yea, against their owne conscience, as that which you alleaged out of the Prophet Esay, (where they hauehave Englished it, 2foreign.the Ministers,) doth shew. And herein their dealing is so much the worse, because they set it out with the name of Erasmus; as if he meant by [sacrificing] the saying of Masse: which is farre from him. For although by reason uEra…m. annotat. in Act. Apost. 13.2. & epist. ad Heb. 8.2.he thought that the word doth properly signifie, not simply to minister, but to minister in holy thinges, as they who serue in the Priesthood, therfore he did translate it that the Prophets & Doctours in the Church at Antioche were sacrificing to the Lord: yet he saith xParaphr. & Annot. in Acta Apost. 13.2.that hereby is meant that they imployed their giftes to Gods glory, and the saluation of the Church, the Prophets in propheciing, the Doctours in teaching the doctrine of the Gospell. So he vnderstandeth nothing els by sacrificing, then others doo by ministring, or rather then the scripture doth: as it is obserued out of the circumstances of the text by yAr. Montanus in Elucidation. Card. Caietanus, & …o. Ferus, in Comment. in Acta Apost.the best of your own interpreters. Who séeing that the men were Prophets, and Doctours, which are said to hauehave béene ministring to the Lord, thereupon do gather that they serued him in executing their owne ministerie, that is to say, the ministerie of prophecying, and teaching. In which sort zOecumenius & Theophylactus in expo…it. in Acta Apost…e Chrysostom. & Gracis Patrib.the Gréeke fathers doo expound it also: 1foreign.what meaneth the word ministring? (say they,) it meaneth preaching. Wherefore if the name of Liturgie were taken hereof, by the Gréeke fathers, as your Rhemists adde: it is a good hearing, but so much the lesse will it proue your Mas…e. For if they vnderstood preaching, by ministring, when the worde is spoken of Prophets, and Doctours: it is the more likely that when they applyed it to the ministerie of the Pastours, … seruice of the Church, they meant the publike prayers and other holy functions which we doo call Diuine seruice. As in truth they did. For that which we call euening prayer, they called 2foreign. Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 4. c. 14.the euening Liturgie, as you would say the seruice doon to God at euening: and in the verie Liturgie, that is called Chrysostomes, because he made some part of it belike, not all, for himselfe aChrysost. li…urg. Graec. excas. Paris. 1560.therein is prayed too; but in that very Liturgie the word is applied to 3foreign.the Churches seruice in the same maner as it is to the seruice which 4foreign.Angels bEsai. 6.3. Reu. 4.8. & 5.12.doo to God. And I hope you will not affirme that the Angels doo say Masse in heauen. Wherefore howsoeuer Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time, wherein the Churches seruice was commonly called Missa: the ministerie mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles doth not proue that sacrifice of which you would inferre your Priesthood. As for the place of Esay, in which it is writen, you shall be called the Priests of God, the Ministers of our God shal it be said vntounto you: the course of the text doth seeme to meane by Priestes all the seruants of God, whom c1. Pet. 2.5.Peter calleth an holy Priesthood, to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. For dEsai. 61. uer. 1.the words are spoken as in Christes person to ever. 2.all the faithfull and repentant, fver. 3.who should be trees of righteousnes, gver. 4.to build vp the Church: and thereupon are promised that hver. 5.their enimies shall serue them, and iver. 6.they shall serue God. But in an other place of Esay, (I graunt,) the name of Priest is giuen to Pastors and Elders: kEsai. 66.21.where speaking of the calling and conuersion of the Gentiles, And of them (saith he) will I take for Priests, for Leuites, saith the Lord.

Hart.

S. Ierom doth expound the former place of them also. But all is one to my purpose. For séeing that Pastours and Elders (as you terme them) are called Priests in scripture, and the name of Priest implyeth (you confesse) autoritie to sacrifice: it foloweth that Pastours and Elders are Priestes autorized to sacrifice. Now the Priest that hath autoritie to sacrifice, is he, whom you do call a Masse-priest. Wherefore both Masse and Priests are proued by the scripture.

Rainoldes.

Why? Thinke you that euerie Christian man and woman is a Masse-priest, because the name of lReu. 1 5. & 5.10.Priests is giuen them by scripture in respect of m1. Pe…. 2▪ 5.spirituall sacrifices which they must offer vntounto God?

Hart.

No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer, are spirituall: and are called sacrifices by a borowed kinde of spéech, and not properly. But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Masse, is an external, visible, true, and proper sacrifice, as it is declared by nSession. 22. c. 1. visibile sacrificium. c. 2. veré propitiatorium. can. 1. verum & proprium sacrificium.the Councell of Trent. So that the Priestes ordeined to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priestes: wheras other Christians are called so improperly, according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer.

Rainoldes.

Then the name of Priestes alleaged out of Esay doth not proue your Masse-priestes. For he doth call the Ministers of the gospell Priestes, in respect of the spirituall sacrifices which they must offer. And that appéereth by oEsai. 66.20.the words going next before: in which the Lord declaring (euen by S. Ieroms iudgement too) that he would call the Iewes to the same honour, that by the name of Priests is signified: and they (saith he) shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord, as the children of Israel offer in a cleane vessell in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord, is that, for which they, who do bring such offerings, are named Priestes and Leuites. pComment. in ea verba Esaiae, Quomodo si inferant filii Israel munus.But the offering vp of the Gentiles vntounto him, is a spirituall sacrifice: made by the Ministers of Christ (as qRom. 15.16. foreign.Paule sheweth) when they conuert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospell. The sacrifice therefore, in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes by Esay, is a spirituall sacrifice. And as euerie faithfull person is a Priest, because we must offer, each his owne bodie, rRom. 12.1.a liuing sacrifice, holy, acceptable vntounto God: so that name is giuen to Ministers of the gospell, because they are called to offer vp the bodies of other men in like sort. Wherefore if priuate Christians are not Masse-priestes, because their sacrifices are spirituall: then sith the Ministers must offer vp the like sacrifices, it foloweth by your answere that nether they are Masse-priestes.

Hart.

The Ministers of the gospell must offer vp the like sacrifices: I deny it not. And in that respect it is true, that nether they, nor priuate Christians are proued to bee Masse-priestes. But there is an other, an externall sacrifice, that Ministers must offer also: euen that which our Lord in the prophet Malachie doth call sMal. 1.11.a cleane oblation, and saith that in euerie place it is sacrificed and offered to his name, because his name is great among the Gentiles. And that is the sacrifice, in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes properly, and are indéede Masse-priests. For the cleane oblation is the sacrifice of the Masse, wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered vp vntounto God his father, as tConcil. Trid. Sess. 22. cap. 1.the Councell sheweth, an oblation that cannot be defiled by the vnworthines or wickednes of them who offer it.

Rainoldes.

What? And be your Priestes of the tribe of Leui, who offer vp this sacrifice?

Hart.

No syr, nor of the Iewes: but they are Christian Priestes.

Rainoldes.

But they, who must offer the sacrifice that is spoken of in the prophet Malachie, are of the tribe of Leui. For afterward uMal. 3.3.entreating of *foreigny^e same oblation, or offering (as we cal it,) that shall be offered vntounto God in the time of the gospell, he saith that the Lord shall fine the sonnes of Leui, and purifie them as gold, and siluer, that they may offer an offering vntounto God in righteousnes. Wherefore if the offering that Malachie doth speake of, be the sacrifice of the Masse, that is, a sacrifice properly: then the proper Priestes, by whom it is offered, are the Iewish Priests after the order of Aaron, euen the sonnes of Leui. But if the sonnes of Leui betoken (by a figure) the spirituall Leuits, that is, all the faithfull, whom Christ in the new testament hath made x1. Pet. 2.9.a royall Priesthood, yReu. 1.6.euen Kings and Priestes to God his father, as your zArias Montanus comment. in Malach. c. 3.Montanus well expoundeth it: then must the offering (by a figure) signifie the spirituall sacrifice, which Christians of all sortes are bound to offer vntounto God. And in truth, as aMatt. 11.14.Christ said of Iohn Baptist, If you will receiue it, this is Elias which was to come, meaning, that bMal. 4.5.the Prophet did signifie Iohn Baptist by the name of Elias: so I may say to you touching the spirituall sacrifices of Christians, If you will receiue it, this is the cleane offering which should in eueryevery place be offered to the Lord. For the Prophets, when they spake of the gospell of Christ, and the religious worship of God cIoh. 4.23.in spirit and truth, (which Gentiles conuerted by the preaching of the gospell should serue him in, through all the world:) are wont to describe it by figuratiue spéeches drawen from the externall and carnall worship of God in the ceremonies of the law. So they say that dEsai. 19.19.there shall be an altar of the Lord in the middes of the land of Egypt; that eEsai. 56.7.God will accept the burnt offrings and sacrifices of straungers vponupon his altar; that fEsai. 60.….all the sheeepe of Kedar shall be offefered on it, and the rammes of Nebaioth; that gZac. 14. ver. 16the Gentiles shall go vp to keepe the feast of tabernacles from yeare to yeare hver. 17.vntounto Ierusalem, and iver. 21.eueryevery pot in Ierusalem and Iuda shall be holy to the Lord of hostes, and all they who sacrifice shall come & take of them and seeth therein; finally, that kMal. 3.4.the offering of Iuda and Ierusalem shalbe sweete vntounto the Lord, as in the dayes of old and in the yeares afore. Wherefore, as the Prophets doo mention an offering which the Christian Church shall offer vntounto God in the time of the gospell: so doo they mention burnt offeringes, and sacrifices, the sheepe of Kedar, the rammes of Nebaioth, to bee offered on an altar; they mention Ierusalem to bee gone vntounto, the feast of tabernacles to be kept, the flesh of beastes sacrificed to be sodde in pottes, the Leuites to be the Ministers who shall make the offering in righteousnesse to God. But neither doth lHeb. 7.1….the Priesthood of the Leuites continue, neither is mIoh. 4.21.Ierusalem the place to worship God, neither are nGal. 4.10.the Iewish feastes the times to doo it, nor will he be serued oHeb. 10.….with sacrifice, and offering, if they be taken properly. The Prophets therefore meant by an allegorie (as we terme it) to shew that all Christians should, as Priests, and Leuites; offer vp them selues, and theirs, as sacrifices; at all times, as solemne feastes; in all places, as in Ierusalem. And so the cleane offering, whereof the Prophet Malachie saith it shalbe offered in eueryevery place vntounto the Lord, doth signifie not a sacrifice to be made vponupon an altar, as your pConcil. Trident. Sess. 22. cap. 1.Councell would hauehave it, but the spirituall sacrifice which S. q1. Tim. 2.8.Paul exhorteth the faithfull to offer, when he willeth men to pray in eueryevery place, lifting vp pure handes without wrath & douting.

Hart.

The Prophetes speake much in déed of thinges to come not properly, and simply, but figuratiuely, by obscure spéeches, and allegories, and parables, that must be vnderstood otherwise then they are writen as rAduers. Marcion. lib. 3.Tertullian noteth. But the name of altar is vsed properly for a materiall altar by the Apostle to the Hebrewes, saying, sHeb. 13.10.we hauehave an altar whereof they hauehave not power to eate which serue the tabernacle. For he putteth them in minde by these wordes, that in folowing too much their olde Iewish rites they depriued themselues of an other maner & a more excellent sacrifice and meate: meaning, of the holy altar, and Christes owne blessed body offered and eaten there. Of which they that continue in the figures of the old law could not be partakers. This altar (saith tIn Leuitic… lib. 6. cap. 21.Isychius) is the altar of Christes body, which the Iewes for their incredulitie must not behold. And the 1foreignGréeke worde (as also the 2foreignHebrew answering thereunto in the old testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar. Wherefore séeing that we hauehave a very altar in the proper sense, and the name of altar doth import a sacrifice that is offered on it: it foloweth that the body of Christ vponupon the altar is a very sacrifice in the proper sense. And that out of doubt is the cleane offering which the Prophet speaketh of: according as the Councell of Trent hath defined.

Rainoldes.

And are you out of doubt that by the wordes, we hauehave an altar, the Apostle meaneth a materiall altar, such as your altars uDurand. ration. diuin. offic. lib. 1. cap. 7.made of stone.

Hart.

What els? a very altar.

Rainoldes.

And they who hauehave not power to eate of this altar are the stubberne Iewes, who keepe the ceremonies of the law.

Hart.

The Iewes, and such prophane men.

Rainoldes.

Then your Masse-priestes may and doo vse to …ate of this altar.

Hart.

They doo. And what then?

Rainoldes.

Their téeth be good and strong, if they eate of an altar that is made of stone. Are ye sure that they eate of it?

Hart.

Eate of an altar? As though ye knew not, that, by the altar, the sacrifice which is offered vponupon the altar is signifyed. They eate of Christes body, which thereby is meant.

Rainoldes.

Is it so? Then the worde [altar] is not taken for a very altar in the proper sense, but figuratiuely for the body of Christ the which was sacrificed and offered. Neither is it taken for the body of Christ, in that respect that Christ is offered in the sacrament, in the which sort he is *That is to say, not in the truth of the thing, but in a mysterie betokening it, as it is n…ted out of S. Austin. c Hoc est. de consecr. distinct. 2.mystically offered as often as the faithfull doo eate of that bread, and drinke of that cuppe, wherein the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood is represented to them: but in that respect that Christ was offered on the crosse, in the which sort he was truly offered not often, but xHeb. 9.28.once, to take away the sinnes of many, and yHeb. 10. ver. …0.to sanctifie them zver. 14.for euer who beleeue in him.

Hart.

Nay, the auncient Father Isychius expoundeth it of the bodie of Christ in the sacrament, (as I shewed) which the Iewes must not behold. They might behold his body vponupon the crosse, and did so.

Rainoldes.

But the holy Apostle him selfe doth vnderstand it of the bodie of Christ as it was offered on the crosse. And that is manifest by the wordes he addeth to shew his meaning touching the Iewes and the altar. aHebr. 13.11.For (saith he) the bodies of those beastes, whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high Priest for sinne, are burnt without the campe. Therefore euen Iesus, that he might sanctify the people with his owne blood, suffered without the gate. Which wordes are somewhat darke, but they will be plaine, if we consider both the thing that the Apostle would proue, and the reason by which he proueth it. The thing that he would proue, is, that the Iewes can not be partakers of the fruite of Christes death and the redemption which he purchased with his pretious blood, if they still retaine the ceremoniall worship of the law of Moses. The reason by which he proueth it, is an ordinance of God in a kinde of sacrifices appointed by the law to be offered for sinne, which sacrifices shadowed Christ, and taught this doctrine. For whereas bLeu. 6.16. & 7.6.the Priestes who serued the tabernacle in the ceremonies of the law, had a part of other sacrifices and offeringes and did eate of them: cLeu. 4.3. & 16.15.there were certaine beastes commanded to bee offered for sinne in special sort, and their blood to be brought into the holy place, dLeu. 6.30.whose bodies might not be eaten, but must be burnt without the campe. Now, by these sacrifices offered so for sinne, our onelyonly soueraine sacrifice Iesus Christ was figured: who eHeb. 9.12.entred by his blood into the holy place, f1. Ioh. 1.7. & 2.2.to clense vsus from all sinne; and gIoh. 19.20.his body was crucified without the gate, that is, the gate of the citie of Ierusalem; and they who keepe the Priestly rites of Moses law, can not hIoh. 6.51.eate of him, that by his death they may liue: for none shall liue by him who séeke to be saued by the law, as it is writen, iGal. 5.1.if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. The Apostle therefore exhorting the Hebrewes kHeb. 13. ver. …to stablish their hartes with grace, that teacheth them to serue the Lorde in spirit and truth after the doctrine of the gospell, not with meates, that is to say, with the ceremonies of the law, a part whereof was the difference betweene vncleane and cleane in meates: doth moue them to it with this reason, that lver. 10.if they serue the tabernacle, and sticke vntounto the rites of the Iewish Priesthood, their soules shall hauehave no part of the foode of our sacrifice, no fruit of Christs death. For, mver. 11.as the bodies of those beastes which were offered for sinne, and their blood brought into the holy place by the hye Priest, might not be eaten by the Priestes, but were burnt without the campe: nver. 12.so neither may the keepers of the Priestly ceremonies hauehave life by feeding vponupon Christ, who (to shew this mystery) did suffer death without the gate, when he shed his blood to clense the people from their sinne. And thus it appeereth by the text it selfe that the name of altar betokeneth the sacrifice, that is to say, Christ crucified: not as his death is shewed foorth in the sacrament, but as he did suffer death without the gate. Whereby you may perceiue, first, the folly of your Rhemists about the Greeke worde, (as also the Hebrew) that it signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on: as though it might not therefore be vsed figuratiuely; where yet them selues must needes acknowledge it to be so too. Next, the weakenes of your reason, who thereof doo gather, that, by the sacrifice, which that worde importeth in the Apostle, is meant the cleane offering of which the Prophet speaketh. For, the cleane offering, of which the Prophet speaketh, is offered oMal. 1.11.in eueryevery place: the sacrifice meant by the Apostle, in one place onelyonly, pHeb. 13.12.without the gate. Wherefore the name of altar in the epistle to the Hebrewes doth neither signifie a Massing-altar, nor proue the sacrifice of Massing-priests.

Hart.

That which you touch, as foolishly noted by our qIn thei… Annot. on Heb. 13.10.Rhemists, about the Greeke and Hebrew worde, is noted very truly. For you can not deny your selfe, but that it signifieth properly an altar, a materiall altar to sacrifice vponupon, and not a metaphorical and spirituall altar. Whereby as they conclude that we hauehave not a common table, or prophane communion boord to eate meere bread vponupon, but a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christs body vponupon: so for proofe hereof they adde, that, in respect of the saide bodie sacrificed, it is also called an altar of the Fathers, euen of rIn ora…. de sorore Gorgonia.Gregorie Nazianzene, sDemonst. quód Christus sit Deus.Chrysostome, tHistor. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 20. & 25.Socrates, uEpist. 86. De …iuit. Dei. lib. 8. cap. 27. & lib. 22. cap. 30. Co…ess. lib. 9. cap. 11. & …3. Contr. Fau…um Manich. lib. 20. cap. 21.Augustine, and x… …3. Matt.Theophylact. And when it is called a table, it is in respect of the heauenly foode of Christes body and blood receiued.

Rainoldes.

The note of your Rhemists, about the Greeke & Hebrew word, is true (I graunt,) yet foolish too: though true in the thing, yet foolish in the drift. For to the intent that where the Apostle saith, we hauehave an altar, it may be thought hee meant not that word spiritually, or in a figuratiue sense, as we expound it of Christ, but materially of a very altar such as is vsed in their Masses: they say that the 1foreignGreeke word (as also the 2foreignHebrew answering thereunto in the olde testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar. Which spéech how dull it is in respect of the point to which they apply it: I will make you sée by an example of their owne. Our Sauiour in the gospell teacheth of himselfe that he is yIoh. 6. ver. 32.the true bread, zver. 33.which giueth life vntounto the world; aver. 50.the bread which came down from heauen, that whosoeuer eateth of it should not die: bver. 51.if any man eate of this bread, he shall liue for euer. Your cIn their Annotations on Ioh. 6.32.Rhemists doo note hereon, that the person of Christ incarnate is meant vnderunder the metaphore of bread, and our beleefe in him is signified by eating. Wherein they say well. But if a man should tell them that the 1foreign.Greeke word (as also the 2foreignHebrew answering therevnto in the old testament) doth properly signifie bread which we eate bodily, and not a metaphoricall or spirituall bread: were not this as true a speech as their owne? Yet how wise to the purpose, who is so blinde that séeth not? Yea, to go no farther then the very word, whereof by their Hebrew and Greeke they séeke aduantage: them selues, vponupon that place of dReu. 6.9.Iohn that he saw vnderunder the altar the soules of them who were killed for the word of God, doo affirme expressely that Christ is this altar. Christe (say they) as man, no dout is this altar. They meane it (I hope) in a metaphoricall, or other figuratiue spéech. For they will not make him by transsubstantiation to be an altar properly. Yet here it is as true that the 1foreignGreeke word (as also the 2foreignHebrewe answering thereunto in the olde testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphoricall or spirituall altar. And if it were as much for the aduantage of their cause to proue that Masse is said in heauen, as that in earth; and, that Christ is properly bread without a figure, as that bread is properly Christ in the sacrament: the text of the scripture where Christ is called bread, yea the true bread, would proue the one cléerely, as they could fit it with this note; and the word altar, would put the other out of controuersie, chiefely if that were noted withall, that eReu. 8.3.an Angell stood before the altar hauing a golden censer, though fAre…has in collect. exposit. in Apocalyp. cap. 8. Rupert. comment. in Acalyps. lib. 5.others there also affirme the altar to be Christ. But it fareth with your Rhemists, as it is wont with gEzek. 13.10false prophets: 1Allen, in his treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse.one buildeth vp a muddy wall, and 2The Rhemists in their Annotations on the new Testament.others daube it ouer with a rotten plaister, and when a storme cometh, the wall falleth and plaister with it. For though, as they lay it on, it séemeth hansom, that wordes signifie properly the naturall things which they are vsed to signifie, and not metaphoric…ll or spirituall things: yet if it be opened that hereby is meant that wordes may not be vsed (by metaphores, or other figures) to signifie those thinges which properly they doo not signifie, the boyes in grammer schooles, who know what a metaphore is, will laugh at it. Wherefore this plaister will not helpe the weakenes of your muddy wall, I meane of the conclusion which you would proue by it and doo inferre vponupon it, that we hauehave an altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes body vponupon. In the daubing vp whereof yet your plaisterers do shew a péece of greater art: partly, by drawing vsus into hatred who hauehave not Popish altars, but communion tables; partly, by winding the names of Fathers in, as if they made for you against vsus. Both, with skill and cunning: but more of sophistrie, then diuinitie. For that which the scripture doth call h1. Cor. 10.21.the Lords table, because it is ordeined for i1. Cor. 11.20.the Lords supper in the administration of the blessed sacrament of his bodie and blood: kGregor. Nazianzen. orat. in la…d. Basilii. Chrysost. demonstr. quód Christus sit Deus. Homil. in Matt. 16. & 83. in prior. ep. ad Corinth. 24. & 27. ad populum Antioch. 60. & 61▪ Sermon. de Eucharist. & de B. Philogonio. Socrat. hist. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 20. & 25. Augustin. epist. 59. ad Paulin. Tract. in Iohann. 26. de verbis Domini Serm. 46. Theophylact. in prior. epist. ad Corinth. cap. 11.the Fathers also call it a table in respect of the heauenly banket that is serued vponupon it. And this in proper sense. Marry, by a figure of speech, by which the names of thinges that are like one an other in some qualitie, are giuen one vntounto an other, as lEzek. 34.23.Christ is called Dauid; mMal. 4.5.Iohn Baptist, Elias; nReu. 17.5.the citie of Rome, Babylon; oEsai. 62.9.the Church of God, Ierusalem: the Fathers for resemblance of the Ministers and sacraments in the new testament to them in the olde, are wont to giuegive the name, as ofpPruden…ius hymn. de S. Lau…ent. Conc. Carth. 2. can. …. …sidor. etymo…ogiar. lib. 7. cap. 1…. Priestes, and Leuites, to Pastours, and Deacons; so of a sacrifice, to the Lords supper; and of an altar, to the Lords table. For these thinges are lynked by nature in relation, and mutuall dependence (as I may say) one of an other: 1foreignthe altar, 2foreign.the sacrifice, and 3foreign.the sacrificers who serue the altar, that is, Priestes and Leuites. Wherefore if the Fathers meant a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes bodie vponupon: then must they meane also qAmbros. de officiis lib. 1. c. 50. Leo epist. 79. ad Dioscorum.the Leuitical Priesthood to serue in sacrificing of it. But rHeb. 7.11.the Leuiticall Priesthood is gone, and they knew it: nether did they call the ministerie of the Gospell so, but by a figure. Your Rhemists therefore doo abuse them, in prouing, as by them, that the communion table is called an altar properly. But vsus of the other side they doo abuse more, by setting an altar against a common table in such sort of spéech, as if we, whose Churches hauehave not a very altar to kill our Sauiour Christ and sacrifice him vponupon it, had but a common table and profane communion boord to eate meere bread vponupon. A feate to make vsus odious in the eyes of men, whom you would perswade that we discerne not the body of the Lord. Which your priuie sclander doth vsus open iniurie. For we hauehave not a common, but a holy table, as both sThe booke o… common prayer, in the communion.we call it, and estéeme it; not a profane communion boorde, but a sanctified; to eate, not meere bread, but the Lords supper; wherein we receiue the bread of thankes-giuing and the cuppe of blessing, as t1. Cor. 10.16. & 11.23.the Apostles doctrine and practise of uIustin. Mart. in Apolog. 2. Irenae. lib. 4. cap. 34. & lib. 5. cap. 4. Cyprian. epist. 63. ad Caecilium. Ambros. de sacrament. lib. 4. & 5. Leo Sermon. 4. de quadrages.the Fathers teach vsus. Your selues are guiltie rather of féeding men with meere bread, xConcil. Constantiens. Sess. 13. & Trident. Sess. 21. cap. …. can. 2.who do take away the cuppe of the new testament in the blood of Christ from the Christian people; and in stéede of the blessed bread of the sacrament do giuegive in your Masses meere bread in déede by your owne confession, yDurand. in Rational. diuinor. offic lib. 4. cap. 53.the common bread that goeth vnderunder the name of *Panis benedictus sanctae communioni… vicarius.holy-bread. I would to God, M. Hart, you would thinke with your selfe, euen in your bed, (as zPsal. 4.4.the Prophet speaketh,) and consider more déepely both the wicked abuses wherewith the holy sacrament of the Lords supper is profaned in your vnholy sacrifice of the Masse; and the treacherous meanes whereby your Maister and Felowes of the College of Rhemes doo séeke to maintaine it. Who being not able to proue it by the scriptures either of the altar, or of the cleane offering, the principall places whereon their shew standeth: they go about to bréede a good opinion of it in the heartes of the simple, partly, by discrediting vsus with false reproches; partly, by abusing the credit of the Fathers. Which two kinds of proofe do beare the greatest sway through all your Rhemish Annotations.

Hart.

We do not abuse the credit of the Fathers to perswade an errour: but as we endeuour to folow them in truth, so alleage we them to proue the truth by them. And howsoeuer you auoide the place of S. Paule, where it is said, we hauehave an altar: the prophecie of Malachie, that in eueryevery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to God, must néedes belong to the verie and outward sacrifice of the Masse, not to spirituall sacrifices. Which because that reuerend man, D▪ Allen, whose treatise of the Masse is such a moate in your eye, aAlan. de Eucharist. sacrific. cap. 5.doth proue by sixe reasons, 1Argumenta valida, & pla…é bona.the pith whereof he greatly praiseth: I will bring them forth in his owne wordes, that you may yéelde the rather to them. First therefore, the word to sacrifice and to offer, being vsed by it selfe 2Sine termino d…minuente.without a terme abridging it, is taken in the scripture alwaies properly for the act of outward sacrifice. But when it is said, the sacrifice of praise, the sacrifice of crying, the sacrifice of contrition, and the like: it is perceiued easily by the wordes annexed that they be taken improperly. Secondly, this sacrifice, of the which the Prophet speaketh, is one: but spirituall sacrifices there are so many as there are good workes of Christian religion. Thirdly, this is the proper and peculiar sacrifice of the new law, and the Gentiles, not of the Iewes. But spirituall sacrifices of praiers and workes are common to the Iewes with vsus. Fourthly, this that Malachie meaneth doth succéede the sacrifices of the Iewes, and is offered in their stéede: but praier, fasting, and the workes of charitie doo not succéede any, but are ioined and coopled to euerie kinde of sacrifices. Fifthly, our workes (chiefely in the iudgement of heretikes) are defiled, howsoeuer they séeme beautifull: but this Prophetical offering is 3Per…se munda est, & ita per se m…nda.cleane of it selfe, and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted anie way by vsus or by the woorst Priests. For here, in our testament, they cannot choose all the best to them selues, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble, the lame, and the sicke, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it cannot be chaunged; so cleane, that no worke of ours can distaine it. Finally, the Fathers, and all that euer hauehave expounded this place of purpose catholikely, hauehave expounded it of the sacrifice of the Masse: yea then, when they speake of the sacrifice of praier, yea or of spirituall sacrifice. Wherein the heretikes deceiue and are deceiued. For the Fathers call our sacrifice some times an offering of prayer, and a spirituall sacrifice, because it is made with blessing and with prayer mysticall: because 4Victima hic existens.the victime that is here, hath not a grosse, carnall, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victimes of the Iewes. Sée Tertullian in the third booke against Marcion, in the end; Iustin, in Trypho; Irenaeus, in the fourth booke, the two and thirtieth chapter; Ierom, on the eighth of Zacharie; Austin, in the first booke against the aduersarie of the law, and the eightenth chapter; albeit in the second booke against the letters of Petilian he doth expound it of the sacrifice of prayse: Cyprian also, in the first booke the sixtenth chapter against the Iewes; Cyrill, in the booke of worshipping in spirit and truth; Eusebius, in the first booke of preparation of the gospell; Damascen, in the fourth booke of the Catholike faith, and the fourtenth chapter; Theodoret, vponupon the first chapter of Malachie. Thus farre D. Allen. By whom you may perceiue, that we bring the right opinion of the Fathers, with many other reasons out of the circumstances of the text it selfe, to proue that the cleane offering in the Prophet Malachie doth signifie the sacrifice of the blessed Masse.

Rainoldes.

Nay, I may perceiue that D. Allen bringeth the names of the Fathers, though Damascen a childe in respect of the rest, farre in yeares beneth them, & farther in iudgement; but their names he bringeth, he bringeth not their right opiniō. For if their opiniō be searched & examined, it maketh nothing for him. And therfore he doth onelyonly name them & quote them. Which point of his wisdome your Rhemists folow much. Many other reasons he bringeth, I graunt, besides the names of Fathers: but it had béene better for him not to bring them. For Tertullian, Iustin, Irenaeus, Ierom, Austin, Cyprian, Cyrill, Eusebius, Damascen, and Theodoret, would make a faire shew with their names alone, if the other reasons and they were set a sunder. Now, being matched in a band together, and agréeing no better then bEsai 9.21.Ephraim with Manasses, and Manasses with Ephraim, who did eate vp one another, they marre the matter with their discorde. That, as the Emperour Adrian saide, cDio Nicaeus: i… Adriano.when he was dying, The multitude of physicians hath cast away the Emperour: so may you complaine, the multitude of reasons hath cast away the proofe, which your Masse did hope to procure by Malachie.

Hart.

Not so. But their multitude helpeth one an other. For many thinges, which singled by them selues are weake, are strong if they be ioyned: and dEccles. 4.12.a three fold coard is not easily broken.

Rainoldes.

This is a roape of sande rather, then a coard: it will not hang together. For whereas D. Allen doth thus alleage eMal. ….11.Malachie after your fIn omni loco sacrificatur & offertur nomini meo oblatio munda.olde translation, in eueryevery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to my name, saith the Lord of hostes: the Hebrew text, and after the Hebrew the Gréeke of the seuentie interpreters (which the Fathers folow) doo set it downe thus; in eueryevery place there is gHeb. foreign Gr. foreign. Latin, incensum offertur nomini meo & oblatio munda.incense offered to my name, and a cleane offering. Now the worde [incense] is vsed in the scripture simply for prayers, in the fifth chapter of the Reuelation: where hReuel. 5.8.the golden vials of the foure and twentie Elders are full of *foreign.odours, or incenses (to keepe the worde,) which are the prayers of the Saintes. And so doo iIren. lib. 4. cap. 33. Euseb. de praeparat. Euang. lib. 1. Hieron. in Zachar cap. 8. August. contr. aduers. legis. lib. 1. cap. 20.the Fathers expound the same in Malachie. Wherefore the first reason which you rehersed of D. Allens, that the worde [to sacrifice] being vsed by it selfe without a terme abridging it, is taken in the scripture alwayes properly for the act of outward sacrifice, is false, both in it selfe, and by the iudgement of the Fathers. For that worde of his, is incense in the Fathers according to the scripture. But incense in the scripture is taken for prayers figuratiuely. By the iudgement therefore and exposition of the Fathers, that worde doth not inferre the sacrifice of the Masse, but our spirituall sacrifices.

Hart.

In déede S. Iohn expoundeth in the Apocalypse those odours to be the prayers of the Saintes. But thereby it is plain (as kIn the Rhemish Annot. on the Apocalyp. 5.8.we note vponupon it) that the Saintes in heauen offer vp y^e prayers of faithfull and holy persons in earth (called here Saintes, and in the scripture often) vntounto Christ. And among so many diuine and vnserchable mysteries set down without exposition, it pleased God yet, that the Apostle him selfe should open this one point vntounto vsus, that these odours be *That is to say, the prayses.the laudes and prayers of the faithfull, ascending and offered vp to God as incense, by the Saintes in heauen. That so you may hauehave no excuse of your errour, that the Saintes hauehave no knowledge of our affaires or desires.

Rainoldes.

You are too too flitting on eueryevery occasion from the present point in question to others. And yet, if we should enter into that controuersie about the worship of Saintes: that honour which you giuegive them would finde no succour here. For neither doth it follow that we must pray to them though they did offer vp our prayers; neither is it certaine, that the Saintes in heauen onelyonly are represented in the foure and twentie Elders; neither, if they be, can you proue that the prayers of Saintes, which they offer, are other mens prayers, they may bee their owne. And for my part I doo rather thinke that the foure and twentie Elders represent all the Saintes and faithfull both in heauen and earth, who offer vp their owne prayers as incense to God. For after that S. Iohn had saide that lReu. 5. ver. ….the odours are the prayers of the Saintes: he addeth, that mver. 9.they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthie to take the booke, and to open the seales thereof, because thou wast killed and hast redeemed vsus to God by thy blood out of eueryevery kinred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made vsus Kinges and Priests vntounto our God, and we shall raigne vponupon the earth. By the which wordes it seemeth that he openeth what the prayers are which they offer to Christ. And sith they, who offer them, doo say of them selues that Christ hath made them Kinges and Priests, which S. Iohn nReu. 1.6.before affirmeth of the Saintes on earth: it may be that they also, and not the Saintes in heauen onelyonly, are represented by the foure and twentie Elders.

Hart.

Nay: oReu. 4.4.the foure and twentie Elders are described with golden crownes vponupon their heads. And the crowne is giuen to Saintes in heauen, as it is writen: pReu. 2.10.Be thou faithfull vntill death, and I will giuegive thee the crowne of life.

Rainoldes.

The rewarde of life, giuen to the Saintes in heauen q2. Tim. 2.5.when they hauehave striued as they ought to doo, and gotten the victory, is called *foreigna crowne, or (as we speake) a garland, by allusion to a custome that was among the Grecians. For such as got the masterie in their games of wrastling, or running, or the like, were rHerodotus … Vrania.crowned with a garland in token of victorie. Whereupon the scripture (by a figure of spéech) doth call life eternall, wherewith God rewardeth the conquerours, the crowne of life: s1. Cor. 9.2….not a corruptible crowne, as those of the Grecians were, but incorruptible, 1. Pet. 5.4.a crowne that can not wither, euen a crowne of glory. And as the crowne is taken in this sense for a garland, to signify the blisse of endlesse life and ioy: it is giuen onelyonly to the Saintes in heauen, who uReu. 14.13.rest from their labours. But the foure and twentie Elders had golden crownes set vponupon their heads; and xPsal. 23.3.a crowne of gold betokeneth a kingdome. Wherefore sith the Saintes on earth are kinges also, and not the Saintes in heauen onelyonly: the foure & twentie Elders may signifie them both. As it is both their duties yReu. 4. ver. 10to cast their crownes before the throne, and say to him who sitteth on it, Thou art worthie O Lord to receiue glory, and honour, and power: for thou hast created all thinges, and for thy willes sake they are, and were created.

Hart.

But they are saide also to be zver. 4.clothed in white raiment. And the white raiment is vsed to betoken the brightnesse of glory, wherewith the Saintes in heauen are clad. For aReu. 3.4.Christ doth pronounce of the godly in Sardis, that they shall walke with him in white: and when vponupon the mountaine bLuk. 9.29.his clothes were white glistering, it was a token of his glory.

Rainoldes.

But as white raiment doth betoken glory, so doth it grace too. For cReu. 3.18.our Sauiour aduiseth the Church of the Laodiceans to buye of him white raiment, that she may bee clothed, and that her filthie nakednesse doo not appeere. And dReu. 7.14.the scripture sheweth touching the faithful of al tongues, and peoples, and kinreds, and nations, that they had washed their robes and made their robes white in the blood of the Lambe. Wherefore sith no more is saide of the Elders but that they were in white raiment: it may as wel agrée to the Saintes on earth, who are in white of grace; as to the Saintes in heauen, who are in white of glory.

Hart.

But eReu. 4. ver. 4.they were sitting on foure and twentie seates about the throne of God: and fver. 2.the throne is saide to hauehave béene set in heauen. Wherefore it can not be that the Saintes on earth should be meant thereby.

Rainoldes.

Why? Was not S. Paul on earth when he said gPhil. 3.20.our *foreign.conuersation is in heauen? Or, doth he not meane the same of all the faithfull, who liue after the lawes of the heauenly citie, that is, the Church of God, and are not earthly minded? Doth not S. Iohn him selfe in the Reuelation say that h…eu. 12.1.a great wonder appeered in heauen: a woman clothed with the sunne, and the moone was vnderunder her feete, and vponupon her head a crowne of twelue starres, and she was with childe, and cryed trauailing in birth, and was pained readie to be deliuered? And is not the Church on earth hereby meant, clad as it were with Christ, who is iMal. 4.….the sunne of righteousnes; treading downe k1. Ioh. 2.…5.things worldly, which change as the moone; adorned with the doctrine of the Apostles, as of lDan. 12.3.starres; and bringing forth the faithfull, mEsai. 54. ver. 1. & 5. & 13. Gal. 4.27.as children, vntounto God? Doth not he say farther that nReu. 12.7.there was a battel in heauen: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels, but they preuailed not, nether was their place found any more in heauen? And is not this also meant of the militant Church: in which oDan. 10.21. & 12.1.the Prince of the faithfull, *foreign that is to say, who is as God, or equall to God. Phil. 2.6.Michael, that is Christ, with his pHeb. 1.14.angels and qMal. 2.7. & 3.1. Reu. 1.20.seruants, doth fight against the dragon, that is, rReu. 12.9.the deuil, with his angels, euen all his powers and ministers, and doth preuaile against them? Then if the Church militant on earth be represented both in this battel and in that woman, as sThe Rhemis… Anno…at. on Reu. 12.7.your selues confesse, and yet S. Iohn describeth the one to hauehave appeered, the other to be doon in heauen: the foure & twentie Elders might hauehave their seates in heauen by S. Iohns vision, and notwithstanding signifie the faithfull on the earth also. Which yet I say not, as defining it to be so; for I had rather learne then teach the Reuelation, wherein I doo acknowledge there are many mysteries that God hath not reuealed to me: but onelyonly to shew that you hauehave no ground in the holy scripture why you should restraine it to the Saintes in heauen. And if I could satisfie my selfe with such aduantage to plucke downe your fansies, as you content your selues with to set them vp: I might as well restraine it to the Saintes on earth, sith the Elders say, tReu. 5.…0.we shall raigne vponupon the earth; perhaps, as Christ said, that uMatt. 5.5.the meeke are blessed, for they shal inherite the earth. But you and your Rhemists should hauehave doon well (before you medled with the scriptures) to learne S. Austins lesson giuen to the Donatists: who when they alleaged as fit a place of scripture out of xCant. 1.7. vbi pa…cis, vbi cubas in meridie. Augustin. de vnitat▪ eccles. cap. 16.the song of Salomon to proue that the Church was in Afrike alone, as you to proue that Saintes in heauen know our desires, out of the Reuelation: S. yEpist. 48. ad Vincentium.Austin telleth them that he were very impudent who would expound an allegorie or darke speech of scripture for his owne aduantage, vnlesse he hauehave also plaine and manifest testimonies, by the light whereof the darke may be made euident. Which point in this place doth touch you the néerer, because, though it be graunted that the Elders signify the Saintes in heauen alone: yet zReu. 5. ver. 8.the praiers, which are spoken off, may be their owne praiers, to shew that aver. 9. & 10.they serue God, as it is shewed after that bver. 11. & 12.the Angels doo, and cver. 13.all the creatures in heauen, and on the earth, and in the sea, and vnderunder the earth, and dver. 14.the foure beasts, and finally them selues againe. For, there are manifest testimonies of scripture that all the Saintes offer vp their owne praiers, in which respect they all are Priests. But no manifest testimonie, that their praiers are offered in heauen vntounto God by anie other person then eHeb. 13.15.by Christ Iesus, fHeb. 3.1.the hye Priest of our profession, gMal. 3.1.the Angell of the couenant, h1. Tim. 2.5.the onelyonly mediator betweene God and man. And this doth séeme to be that Angel, that other Angell, of whom it is writen in the Reuelation, iReu. 8.3.An other Angell came and stoode before the altar hauing a golden censer, and there was much odours giuen vntounto him that he should put them into the prayers of all the Saintes on the golden altar which is before the throne: and the smoke of the odours, which were put into the prayers of the Saintes, went vp before God out of the Angels hand. For although the Angels be kHeb. 1.14.ministring spirites, sent forth to minister for the Saints on earth, who shall inherite saluation, and therefore as lAct. 10.4.they serue to certifie them that their prayers are come vp before God, so they might rather offer their prayers to God, then the Saintes in heauen, who hauehave no such ministery to serue the Saintes on earth: yet because this Angell standing with a censer at the altar of incense to burne perfume before God, is set forth as dooing that duetie, mExod. 30.7. Leu. 16.12.which the hie Priest did figure in the law; and nHeb. 7.27.our hye Priest is, no created Angel, but he *Col. 1.16.by whom the Angels were created, euen Christ; it foloweth that Christ is meant by the Angell. To whom this name is giuen oftentimes in oGen. 48.16. Exod. 14.19. Esai. 63.9. Mal. 3.1.scripture, because he is an Angel, that is to say, a messenger, sent by God his father to open his will vntounto his seruants, and worke their saluation by his couenant. And it may be, that, as God the father pExod. 23. ver. 20.hauing said of him, Behold I send an Angell, qver. 21.doth adde, my name is in him, to shew that he is *foreign as he is also called Exod. 13.21.God: so, to distinguish him from the created Angels, who are often mentioned in the Reuelation, S. Iohn doth cal him an other Angell, as differing from the rest, not onelyonly in number, but also in nature, autoritie, and dignitie. For those things which are writen of the Angell, who rReu. 7.2.had the seale of the liuing God; who sReu. 8.5.casting fier into the earth the Angels blew their trumpets, and powred out the plagues of God: who tReu. 10.1.comming downe from heauen, clothed with a clowde, and the rainebow vponupon his head, and his face was as the sunne, & his feete as pillers of fier, had in his hand a little booke, & set his right foote on the sea, and his left foote on the lande; which are namely written of an other Angell, an other mightie Angel, as he is also called: doo (if the circumstances of the text be weighed) best agrée to Christ. But whether it be so, or no: it is certaine that Christ is the Angell who putteth odours of most sweete perfume into the prayers of all the Saintes, as our hye Priest, and offreth them to God his father, to whom uHeb. 7.25.he maketh alwayes intercession for vsus, and is not onelyonly for our prayers but for our selues also xEph. 5.5.an odour of a sweete smelling sauour before him. Wherefore sith the scripture manifestly sheweth that our Sauiour Christ offreth the prayers of all the Saintes, and not that the Saintes in heauen offer the prayers of the Saintes on earth: you might hauehave bene contented to leaue this honour vntounto Christ, and hauehave suffred me to go forward with your reasons about the offering in Malachie. For you see how we are fallen from the Pope to Priests, from Priests to the Masse, from Masse to the Saintes. And if I should folow the same veyne on that which you hauehave saide of Saintes, and touch your abuse, who confessing that the scriptures giuegive that name to faithfull and holy persons in earth, yet (to maintaine your solemne inuocation of dead men) do make it proper, not to Saintes in heauen, but to them whom it shall please yExtra. De reliquiis et venerat. Sanctorum.the Pope to zSacrar. ceremon. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. 6. De canonizatione Sanctorum.canonize, or 1That is …o say, admit in to the number of the Gods. As the heathenish Romans, before they would worship their Emperours, as Gods, did vse to deifie them. Herodian. lib. 4. foreign.deifie, (as 2Diuorum nostrorum apoth… oses. Praefat. lib. 2. Sacr. ceremon. Rom. ecclesiae.the Master of his sacred ceremonies termeth it,) wherin notwithstanding aThom. Aquin. quodlibet. …. att. 16. Antonin. Summ. Theol. part. 3. tit. 12. cap. 8. Cai…tan. opusc. de indulgenti…s ad Cardin. Medicem. cap. 8. Canus Locor. Theolog. l. 5. c. 5. Pellarmin. in praelectionib. Rom. cont…ouer. 4. qu…st. ….your Doctors also teache that the Pope may erre, and canonize a wicked person for a Saint, so that it may be (euen by your owne doctrine) that in your Church-seruice you worship them, as Saints, whose spirits are in hell with the deuill and his Angels: I say, if I should flit thus from point to point on eueryevery occasion that your speech doth offer, we should confound our conference, and neuer make an end of the point in question. Wherefore let other questions I pray be reserued to their due place touchinge the faith of the Church. And now, to finish this touching the head of the Church, let vsus go forward with your Masse-priestes, that so we may returne to the Popes supremacy. Of the sixe reasons therfore which you alleaged out of D. Allen, to proue, that the cleane offring which Malachie doth write of is the sacrifice of the Masse, and not spirituall sacrifices: the first is conuinced clearely to be false, and that by the consent of all the same Fathers whom he would proue it by. For bSacrificatur.the word, which noteth an outward sacrifice with him, with all them is cforeign … the Greeke Fathers, in the Latin, a word answering thereto: as incensum, August. contr. aduers. leg. l. 1. cap. 20. or odores incensi, Cypr. contr. Iudaeos l. 1. c. 16.incense of sweete perfumes and odours. But incense in the scripture is taken for the praiers of the Saintes as you grant. The word then which he doth build the Masse vponupon, is not alwayes taken properly in scripture for the act of outward sacrifice.

Hart.

But he doth not onelyonly vrge the word, to sacrifice, for which indéede the Fathers and the Hebrewe text hauehave incense: but the word, to offer. And if that be alwaies taken properly for the act of outward sacrifice: his reason is of force still.

Rainoldes.

But the force of his reason doth lye vponupon the word, to sacrifice, not to offer. For dAlan. de Euchar. sacrific. cap. 16.him selfe granteth that lay men, yea women too, are said to offer properly and truely: when, as in eDeut. 12.17. & 14.23. & 26.10.the olde law the tithes and first fruites commanded to be giuen to the Leuites and the poore were presented before God; so they present bread and wine for the communion, or almes for the reliefe of the poore and needy, or any earthly giftes and offerings for holy vses, as fIrenae. lib. 4. cap. 32. & 3…. August. epist. 59. ad Paulin. Iustin. Mart. apolog. 2. & in Tryphon. Cyprian. de opere & …l…mo…ynis.the Fathers shew. Wherefore though the word, to offer, were alwaies taken properly for the act of outward offering: it proueth not the offering of your outward sacrifice: sith gMatt. 2.11.the wise men offered giftes vntounto Christ, hMatt. 5.24.the faithfull Iewes at the altar, ic. Omnis Christianus. de consecration. distinct. 1.lay men and women at the Masse; and yet nether any of them were Massing-priests, nor their offerings, Massing-hosts. Much lesse doth it proue it, as Malachie applyeth it to the offering of incense. For, as incense signifieth the prayers of the Saintes: so to offer incense must be to sacrifice those prayers. But the sacrifice of prayers is a spirituall sacrifice. Wherfore the word to offer, doth not proue your outward sacrifice of the Masse. And so the first reason is gone. The second foloweth: which is no sounder then the former. For why doth Allen say, that the sacrifice spoken of in Malachie is one: and therefore betokeneth not spirituall sacrifices, the which are as many as there are Christian good workes?

Hart.

Why? Because the text of the Prophet Malachie saith that there is offered a cleane oblation, or offering, as you call it. And offering is spoken of one, not of many. For els he should hauehave saide, offerings, not offering.

Rainoldes.

So. And doo you thinke that he who said to God, kPsalm. 40.7. Heb. 10.5.sacrifice & offering thou art not delited with, or (as you translate it) host and oblation thou wouldest not: did meane the Masse by that host?

Hart.

The Masse? No. He meant the hostes and oblations of the old law. For they are the wordes of the Prophet Dauid, spoken of the legall and carnall sacrifices of the Iewes.

Rainoldes.

The Iewes? Nay: the text of the Prophet Dauid saith that God mislyked host and oblation; it saith not, hostes and oblations. Wherefore sith he speaketh of one, not of many; and the carnall sacrifices of the Iewes were many, but the sacrifice of the Masse is one, as you say: it séemeth he should meane that. A point some what dangerous for the host, which your Priests lift vp to be adored. More dangerous for them, who liue by lifting it vp.

Hart.

Our adoration of the host is good, in spite of all heretikes, and not reproued by the Prophet. For, although he saith, host and oblation thou wouldest not: yet is it plaine he meaneth the sacrifices of the Iewes by *Synecdoche.a figure of spéech, in which a part is vsed for the whole, and one for many; as host, and oblation, for hostes, and oblations.

Rainoldes.

Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to proue that the sacrifice of y^e Masse is meant by the oblation in Malachie. For the word lforeignoblation, or offering, which he vseth in his owne language, is vsed likewise still, mforeign onelyonly in the singular number, and neuer foreign in the plurall.as of one, not as of many, through all the olde testament. Wherefore if the sacrifices of the Iewes were many, which neuerthelesse are called not offerings, but offering: the same worde applyed to the sacrifices of Christians can not inforce them to be one. Howbeit, were they one, to graunt you that by a supposall: yet might that one sacrifice be a spirituall sacrifice, and so your Masse no whit the neerer. For as the Prophet nEsai. 66.20.Esay saith that the Gentiles shalbe an offering to the Lord, vsing oforeignthe same worde that the Prophet Malachie: so the Apostle pR…m. 11.1.Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies, a liuing qforeign.sacrifice, holy, acceptable vntounto God, speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one; as also, in a mysterie, r1. Cor. 10.17. Rom. 12 5. Ephes. 4.4.we that are many are one body. But without supposall, the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet, saying, there is offered an offering, doth meane not one, but many, by 1Synecdoche speciei.that figure which you touched: as by 2Enallage temporis.an other figure he saith, it is offered, meaning, it shall be offered. For Mal. 1. ver. 8. & 9.the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the Iewish Priests, saith that tver. 10.he will not accept an offering at their hand: but uver. 11.the Gentiles shall offer to him a cleane offering, which he meaneth of the contrarie that he will accept. And this he sheweth farther, where, touching it againe, he saith Mal. 3. ver. 3.it shall be offered vntounto him in righteousnesse, yver. 4.and shalbe acceptable to him. Now, the offering that is zPhilip. 4.18. Heb. 13.16. 1. Pet. 2.5.acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament, is all sortes of spirituall sacrifices and good workes. By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachie there are many sacrifices meant, not one onelyonly. Which yet your olde translation maketh more euident, opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices, aMal. 3.3.They shall offer *Sacrificia.sacrifices to the Lord in righteousenesse. Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospell, is sacrifices by the iudgement of your old translation, which bConcil. Trident. session. 4.you in no case may refuse; and sacrifices can not be meant of the Masse, for that is one sacrifice, but of spirituall sacrifices it may, for they are many, as Allens second reason saith: you see, we must conclude on his owne principles, that the cleane offering, which Malachie writeth of, doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians, and not the sacrifice of the Masse. The third and fourth reasons hauehave greater shew, but lesser weight. For, though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vsus, and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie, which, beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles, it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes, and be offered in their steede: yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law, and the Christian in the gospel, that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne. For in the law of Moses, the Iewes, cHeb. 8.5. & ….9. & 10.1.to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ & dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it, might stil be set before them as in a figure & shadow; were willed dNum▪ 28.3. Leu. 22.19.to offer beastes without spot & blemish in sacrifice, with ceremonies thereto annexed, and to offer them eDeu. 12.5.in the place that God should choose, which was fPsal. 122.….the citie of Ierusalem, and gPsal. 78.…9. 1 King. 8.20.the sanctuarie, that is to say, the temple built therein. Now Christ, in the gospell, when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent, shewed that hHeb. 9.10.the time of reformation was come, and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it. For as it was prophecied that iDan. 9. ver. 26he should destroy the citie and the sanctuary, kver. 27and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease: so him selfe taught that lIoh. 4. ver. 21now the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem, nor mver. 22.as the Iewes did worship him, but nver. 23. & 24.he would be worshipped in spirit and truth. The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish, doth differ from it in two pointes: one, that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem, but in all places; an other, that it worshippeth him in spirit, and truth; in spirit, without oHeb. 7.16 & 9.10.the carnall ceremonies & rites; in truth, without pCol. 2.17. Heb. 10.1.the shadowes of the law of Moses. The which sort of worship séeing qIoh. 4.13.hee requireth of the true worshippers, that is of all the Saintes, his seruants; and in the new testament rRom. 1.7. 1. Cor, 1.2. Ephes. 1.1. & … ▪ 11. & so foorth.the Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes: the worship, that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles, is the true spirituall worship of God, the sRom. 12.1.reasonable seruing of him by t1. Cor. 5.8.godlines, and uEphes. 2.10. & 4.25.good workes, in righteousnes, and true holines; euen x1. Pet. 2.5.the offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered to him in eueryevery place. For the former of them, that spirituall sacrifices of prayers and workes are common to the Iewes with vsus, deceiueth with a fallacie: because ou… spirituall are spirituall méerely, whereas they had carnall sacrifices with their spirituall. The later doth discouer this fraude of the former, but with an other fraude. For in that it saith, that praying, fasting, and the workes of charity were ioyned to their sacrifices: it sheweth that their worship (though in part spiritual) was not spiritual méerely. But in that it gathereth thereof, that these things cannot succeede their sacrifices, there is an other fallacie: because although the worship of God were still spirituall, as Ioh. 4.2….hée is still a spirit, and so no worship may succéede, for how can a thing succéede it selfe? yet, the same in substance came foorth in sundry maners, and so one maner of it might succéede an other. As Heb. 1.1.the word of God, touching the saluation of men by faith in Christ, was alwayes the same: but vttered in sundry maners by the Prophets, and by Christ. In which sort the worship of God was ordered also: by the Prophets, aExod. 34.33. Heb. 8.5.couertly, vnderunder the vailes of ceremonies; by Christ, bMat. 27.51. …. Cor. 11.3.plainly and simply. Wherefore, as the doctrine of Christ did succéede the doctrine of the Prophets, both the same doctrine, but taught by Christ more cléerely, more darkely by the Prophets: so the spirituall worship of God in the Gospell succéeded his spirituall worship in the law, both the same worship, but laden with ceremonies & shadows in the law, disburdned of them in the Gospell.

Hart.

I can not sée those fallacies which you charge D. Allen with. For if the Iewes did offer prayers to God and other such spirituall sacrifices, as they did: then is it true, as he saith, that spirituall sacrifices are common vntounto them with vsus. And if they be common vntounto them with vsus, it foloweth, in my iudgement, that ours succeede not theirs: sith to succeede, is to come after; and how may that come after which did go before?

Rainoldes.

I hauehave shewed, how. And if you sée it not: c2. Cor. 3.14.the vaile may be the cause, which is very likely to be laide on your heart in reading of the new testament, as it was on the heart of others, in reading of the olde. For the thing is plaine of it selfe, and euident, that the spirituall sacrifices which the Iewes offered, as namely their prayers, did not discharge their duetie but they must offer carnall also; and that not eueryevery where, but in the place that God had chosen. In so much, that albeit they might pray in all places lawfully, as wée may, yet must they come thither to worship God dExod. 23.17.at certaine times: and Daniel, though hée could not because of their captiuitie, yet cDan. 6.10.had his windowes open toward Ierusalem, when hee praied: and the faithfull wept by the riuers of Babylon, fPsal. 137.4.how should we sing the lords song in a strange lande? and the princely Prophet lamented that his banishment did keepe him gPsal. 42.2.from appeering there, and longed hPsal. 6….2.to behold the power and glory of God, as he beheld it in the sanctuary; and being sicke as it were iPsal. 84. ver. ….with the louelove of his tabernacles, yea kver. ….fainting with desire of coming to his courts and lver. 3.altars, he pronounced them mver. 4.blessed who dwell in that house, yea, nver. 5.who may come vntounto it, yea over. 6.though they trauaile hardly thereto through drye places, pver. 7.to present themselues before God in Sion. Whereas Christians, of the other side, qCol. 2.14.neither hauehave those altars or offerings made theron to ioyne with their spirituall rHeb. 13.15.sacrifice of prayse, and they may sEph. 5.19.sing the songs of the Lord t1. Tim. 2.8.in al places. No land is strange: no ground vnholy. EueryEvery coast is Iewry, and eueryevery towne Ierusalem, and eueryevery house Sion, and u2. Cor. 6.16.eueryevery faithfull company, yea x1. Cor. 6.19.eueryevery faithfull body a temple to serue God in. The Christian worship then doth differ euen in prayers from that of the Iewes, both in respect of the temple, y1. King. 8. ver. 30. & 33. & 42. & 44. & 48.which they had a regard to: and of the ceremonies of the law, which they were bound therwith to keepe. Wherfore, as z2. Cor. 3.6.the ministery of the new testament, that is, of them who taught the gospell, came after the ministerie of Priestes in the old, and yet both old and new are the Lords testament: so might and did the worship of God amongst Christians in spirit and truth come after the worship of God amongst the Iewes, though yet they both did worship God spiritually. For the Iewes before did worship in the temple with the ceremonies of the law: as when aLuk. 1. ver. …the Priest was burning incense at the altar in the inner part therof, bver. 10▪the multitude of the people were praying in the outter. And the Christians after did pray without incense in any place, the people and Pastour all together: as cAct. 1.14.the Apos…les with the disciples, and (d1. Cor. 14. … 16. & 2…, & 26. according to their instruction) eIustin. Mart. in Apolog. 2. Tertullian. i… Apologet.the primitiue Churches practise shew. But these points of difference betweene vsus and them be perhaps the harder for you to vnderstand, because your Popish worship is so lyke the Iewish, both for the temple, and the ceremonies, that you may iustly thinke their worship was in spirit and truth as much as yours. For as the Priest with them was seuered from the people by the diuision of the sanctuarie and court of the temple: fDurand. in …ationali divinor. officior. lib. 1. cap. 1.so with you, by the chancell and body of the church. As with them gExod. 10.7.he burned incense at the altar: hDurand. l. 4. c. 8. & l. 5. c. 9.so with you he doth. As with them iExod. 28.4.he was clad in an Ephod, a miter, a broydered coate, a girdle, a brestplate, and a robe, and they who serued him were in their linen coates too: kDurand. l. 3. …. 1.so with you he must hauehave an amice, an albe, a girdle, a fanel, a chisible, and a stole, and they who are about him hauehave surplesses, yea copes also. Their Priestes had lExod. 30.20.a lauer whereat they must wash before they sacrificed: mDurand. l. 1. c. 1. & l. 4. c. 3.so hauehave yours. Your nDurand. l. 1. c. 3.vaile betweene the quire and the altar in lent, resembleth oExod. 26.33.theirs, that seuered the holy place from the most holy. Your pDurand. l. 1. c. 2. & l. 4. c. 1.pyx with the sacrament, and their qExod. 25. ver. 10. & 17.arke with the mercy seate; your rDurand. l. 1. …. 3.phylacterie with Saintes relikes, and their Exod. 16.33.pot with Manna; your tOr monstraus, as D. Allen callēth it, De Eucharist. Sacram. cap. 30. It is a vessel, like a cage, hauing …des of glasse or crystall, that through them the consecrated cake set vp therein, may be shewed to men.monstrancie with the host, and uExod. 25.30.their table with the shew-bread; your xDurand. l. 6. c. 74.holy oyle of balme, and yExod. 30.23.theirs of myrrhe with spices; zNum. 19.9.their purifying water made of the ashes of an heifer, and aDurand. l. 1. …. 7.yours of other ashes with water, wine, and salt; bLeu. 9.24. …. Chron. 7.1.their fyer sent from heauen, and cDurand. l. 6. c. 80.yours fetcht *From the …unn through a crystall glasse.thence by art; their dNum. 17.10.rod of Aaron, and eDurand. l. 1. c. 3.your crosse of Christ; finally, fDurand. l. 1. c. 1.your candles, or tapers, or torches, and gExod. 25.31. & 27.20.their candlesticke with lamps, do match one an other in proportion of rites: nay, you surpasse them in your candles. For hExod. 30.8. 1. Sam. 3.3.theirs were lighted in the night: iDurand. l. 4. c. ….yours, in the day too. Theirs, in the temple onelyonly: yours, kExtra. De celebrat. Mis…ar. c. Sane.abroad also. Theirs, before the Lord: yours, lVaux catechism.before images. Theirs, in one maner: yours, mDurand. l. 2. c. 7 & l. 4. c. 6. & l. 6. c. 72.73.80.89. &c. … eccles. l. 1. tit. 2.with great varietie. Theirs, in small number: yours, at nChiefely on Candlemas-day, and …enebre-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 72. & l. 7. c. 7.times, and places, as many as the sand of the sea. And what should I speake of the rest of the things in which you do not onelyonly folow their ceremonies, but also go beyond them? Your oDurand. l. 1. c. 8.consecrating of Bishops, of churches, of altars, of patens, of chalices, and other instruments of your Priesthood, by anointing them, pExod. 30.26.according to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle. Your qDurand. l. 2. c. 1.shauing, as of rNum. 8.7.Leuites; your sDurand. l. 1. c. 3.imagery, as from t1. King. 6.32.Salomon; your uDurand. l. …. c. 4.halowing of men, xl. 1. c. 4.belles, yOn Ash…-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 28.ashes, zOn Palme-sunday. Durand. l. 6. c. 67.boughes, al. 4. c. 53.bread, bl. 6. c. 86.the paschal Lambe, ccap. 80.the paschal taper, dcap. 79.agnus-deis (and what not?) with eMissale Rom. reformat. a Pio quinto. Sacerdotale Rom. eccles. edit. a Samarin. part. 2.exorcized water: wherwith almost all thinges are purged by your law, as fHeb. 9.22.by theirs with blood. Your purifying (as gNum. 19.18.they called it) or (as you terme it) hCaemeteria reconcilianda. Extra. de consecr. eccles. c. consuluisti.reconciling of a churchyard, or other sacred place, if it be polluted. In conclusion, to passe ouer your iDurand. l. 6. & 7.festiual daies, exceeding theirs in kCol. 2.17.shadowes; your lDurand. l. 4. c. 41. & l. 6. c. 83.mysticall deuises in sacraments, to their paterne; your mInnocent. mysterior. Missae l. 1. c. 10.pontificall robes, in figures incomparable, in number double vntounto theirs; and infinite solemnities of your nThe Pope. Sacr. cerem. Rom. eccles. l. ….hiest Priest, who oD…rand. l. 6. c. 75.entreth *On Maundy-thursday.once a yeare into the place most holy, pHeb. 9.7.as did the hye Priest of the Iewes: your dayly sacrifice of the Masse, though inferiour to qNum. 28.3.theirs in that it is no burnt offering, wherein yet I maruaile you came no néerer them, for as rLeuit. 6.13.they kept fyer on the altar alwaies, sDurand. l. 4. c. 6.so doo you require it, and what should you hauehave fyer vponupon your altar as they had, vnlesse you burne as they did? but your dayly sacrifice of the Masse is celebrated in such Leuitical sort, as if you contended to set forth a Iewish worship more liuely then the Leuiticall Priests could. In attire like them, in mysteries aboue them, in tRitus celebran… di Missam.orders more exquisite, in uCautelae Missae▪cauteles more diligent, in furniture aboundantly: in lifting vp the whole host, and not (as xExod. 29.27.they) a part of it, in yDurand. l. 4. c. 41.ringing of the sacring bell to counteruaile zNum. 10.10.their trumpets: in washing often, in blessing and crossing, in censing often, in soft spéech and whispering, in kissing of the amice, kissing of the fanel, kissing of the stole, kissing of the altar, kissing of the booke, kissing of the Priests hand, and kissing of the pax: in smiting and knocking, in gesturing by rule and measure, in bowing and ducking, in spacing forward, backward, and turning round about, and trauersing of the ground: beside the swéete musicke of aDurand. l. 4. c. 34.organs, and so forth, where it may be had, as in b1. C…ron. ….the temple it might. I dout not, M. Hart, but you are perswaded that this kind of seruice in your Church is Christian: and such, that if our selues were present at the doing, the solemne doing of it, specially atChristmas, Easter, and such other more festiual times, the most of our stonie hartes would melt for ioy, as your cMotiu. …2.Bristow writeth. But in verie truth it is more then Iewish: and his conceit thereof is childish, and carnal. For although it might be delitefull to the flesh, the eies with galant sightes; the eares, with pleasant soundes; the nose▪ with fragrant sauours; the minde, with shew of godlines, to him that doth not vnderstand: yet d1. Cor. 2.15.a spiritual man would be grieued at it, as eAct. 17.16.Paule was in Athenes, and lament that the people should do…te vponupon that by which they are f1. Cor. 14.17. Gal. 4.9. 1. Cor. 10.7.not edified, and wéepe ouer them as gLuk. 19.24.Christ ouer Ierusalem, O if thou hadst knowne at least in this thy day those things which belong vntounto thy peace: but now are they hidden from thine eyes. The Lord h…. Cor. 3.16.take away this vaile from your heart, if it be his good pleasure: that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth, and when you sée it, doo it.

Hart.

There is a vaile rather of presumption ouer your heart, who cōdemne the Catholike ceremonies as Iewish: then of ignorance ouer ours, who embrace them as Christian. For iSess. 7. de sacrament. in genere. can. 13.the Councell of Trent, which was gathered togither and guided by the holy Ghost, hath accursed them who say that the receiued and approued rites of the Catholike Church, vsed in the solemne ministring of sacraments, may be despised. And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Masse, whereat your spite is greatest, kSession. 22. cap. 5.the holy Fathers of that Councell hauehave shewed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles, not on the law of Moses. For as much (say they) as the nature of men is such, that it cannot be lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine things without outward helpes: therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordeined certaine rites, to weete, that some things should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice, and some things with a lowder. Moreouer she hath vsed ceremonies too, as namely mystical blessings, lightes, incense, vestiments, and many other such things, *Ex Apostolica disciplina & traditione.by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles: to the ende that both the maiestie of so great a sacrifice might be set forth, and the minds of the faithful might be raised vp by these visible signes of religion and godlines to the contemplation of most high things which doo▪ lye hidden in this sacrifice. These are the Councels words. Whereby you may perceiue, that the rites and ceremonies vsed at the Masse, are not Iewish, but Apostolike: as (if neede were) it might be shewed in particulars, of incense, by S. lDyonis. Areopagit. ecclesiast. hierar. cap. 3.Denys; of lightes, by S. mConfession. Augustinian. lib. …. cap. 11. tit. 2. … concil. Car…hag. 4. can. 6.Austin; of the rest, by other Fathers.

Rainoldes.

What? of the vestiments too? fanel, amice, albe, stole, and such trinkets?

Hart.

I, euen of them too: as basely and scornfully as you speake of them. Nor yet are these of ours like in all respectes to those which the Priestes did weare amongst the Iewes. From whome in other pointes our ceremonies differ also. As for example, their nExod. 30.33.incense was a perfume most pretious: oDurand. lib. 4. cap. ….ours, is simple frankincense. Their pExod. 27.20.lightes must be of pure oyle: qDurand. lib. …. cap. 7. Sacr. cerem. eccles. Rom. l. 1. tit. 2.ours are of waxe, and may bee of other stuffe indifferently. Which sith it is likewise apparant in the rest, as you must néedes confesse, at least for sundrie of them: you are to blame greatly to reproch the ceremonies of the Church as Iewish.

Rainoldes.

Nay, you did mistake me, if you thought I meant that they are all Iewish, or Iewish absolutely. For I must néedes confesse that some of them are Heathnish rather then Iewish. As namely the shauing of your Priests crownes: after the maner of rCapillum des rasi, vertice pr… nitentes. Apulei. Au…ei Asin. lib. 11.Priestes of Isis in Egipt. Your lighting of candels on Candlemas-day:sRhenan. Annotat. in Tertullian. aduers. Mareion. lib. 5. which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans. Your painting or grauing of the images of men: tEusebius hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 17.a thing that Christians tooke 1foreign.by custome of the Heathens. Your 2Ad eas thus, & cerei. Cic. off. lib. 3.censing of images, and setting tapers before them: uPolydor. Virgil. de inuentor. rerum. lib. 2. c. 23. & l. 6. c. 13.as the Romans also did, when they were Heathens. To be short, the whole substance of your image-worship, xDurand. l. 6. cap. 77.your kyssing, kneeling, & creeping to the image of the crosse, like yCic. in Verrem. lib. 4.Sicilians to Hercules; your images borne in procession, like to the zPausanias in Corinthiacis. Herodian. lib. 1. Apulei. Aur. Asin. lib. 11.Grecians idols; your pilgrimage to Saintes images, where they are most famous, as aLeand. Albe…t. descript. Italiae. Histor. S. Mariae Lauret. script. ab Hier. Angelit. ad Clement. sept.our Ladie of *A towne in Italie, where there is a temple of the blessed Virgin, more celebrated with lying miracles, and thereupon with resort of men: then her temple was at Walsingham in England, of which Erasmus writeth in Colloqu. Pe…egrinat. religionis ergo.Lauretto, like bAct▪ 19.27.Diana of Ephesus, with infinit such other fansies, doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme, and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens. But I▪ because the temple of Salomon had images, although not of men; the Leuites had shauing, although not of crownes; the tabernacle had lightes, although not in y^e day time, much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times: did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish, to make the best of them. And for all the difference that you find betwixt them, of waxe in yours, and oyle in theirs; and their perfume, and your frankincense; though cExod. 30.34.frankincense was mingled with their perfume also, and dLeuit. 2.3.made an incense too without it; but granting this difference betwixt them to the vttermost: yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof, because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish. And it is likely, that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses, as they who defend them doo ground them vponupon Moses. For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop eIn Rationali diuinorum o…i…iorum.Durand, or fThe Canonists & Popes, de cōsecration. di…tin…t. 1. & so foorth in th… Decrees & Decretals.others set vponupon them, is, that God ordeined them in Moses law. As gExtra. De sacra vnctione. cap. vnico.Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes: and againe, that temples, and altars, and chalices ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle, and arke▪ and table with the vessels.

Hart.

But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of vnction (or anointing) doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing (that is, with doing as the Iewes did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction.

Rainoldes.

Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you, that your holy vnction is made of oyle, and balme, where theirs was made of oyle & myrrhe with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dogge, and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did, because they did sacrifice, not dogges, but shéepe & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs, that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of hGod by his word. Exod. 39.22.him, who ordered theirs; and iTo figure & betokē Christ. Heb. 8.5. out of Exod. 25.40.the cause, why: yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice kExod. 29.41.a lambe in burnt offering, though you did it to signifie, not Christ that was to come, lIoh…. 1.29.as the Iewes did, but that Christ is come, and mReu. 14.1.hath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie. At the least, S. Peter nGal. 2.14.did constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize, (as you terme it,) when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in oLeuit. 11.47. & 23.25.choise of meates. Yet neither he, nor they allowed it in that meaning, which it was giuen to the Iewes in. For it was giuen them pCol. 2.16.to betoken that holines, and qGal. 4.3.traine them vp vntounto it, which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull. And Peter knew rAct. 2.38.that Christ had doon this in truth, and sAct. 10.15.taken away that figure, yea, tAct. 15.10.the whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites, with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salue that blister: yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish, and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them.

Hart.

S. Peter did not erre in faith, but in behauiour, when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine, as uDe praescriptionib. aduers. haeret.Tertullian saith. Neither doth S. xEpist. 9. & 19. ad Hieronymsi.Austin thinke otherwise of it.

Rainoldes.

I graunt. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but yGal. 2. ver. 14.in walking according to it, that hauing liued before not as the Iewes, but Gentile-like, yet zver. 12.then hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes, and aver. 13.dissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen. For if S. Peter bver. 11.was to be condemned, as causing them to Iudaize, whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproued him. But cNon Iudaiza… ecclesia, sicut aliqui mentiu… tur. Extra. de sacra vnctione. §. vngitur.Pope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both dSess. 7. de sacrament. in gen. …an. 13.the rest of your Iewish rites, and namely eSess. 23. can. ….that of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, fGalat. 1.7. & 2.3. & 4.9who troubled the Galatians, and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it.

Hart.

Your wordes should hauehave some coolour of truth against the Church, if we taught that gGalat. 5.2.men ought to be circumcised, as did the false Apostles.

Rainoldes.

Why? Shall no heretikes be counted h2. Pet. 2.1.false teachers in the Church of Christ, vnlesse they teach in al point… as did the false Prophets?

Hart.

But, (as I hauehave shewed out of iSess. 22. cap. 5.the Councell of Trent,) the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse, as namely mysticall blessinges, lightes, incense, vestiments, and many other such thinges, came all not from the false but from the true Apostles. And if there be any which they ordeined not: that might be ordeined by 1Pia mater ecclesia.our holy mother the Church. As it was, that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice, & some thinges with a lowder. For such is the nature of men, that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges 2Sine adminic…lis exteriori…us.without outward helpes. Which reason, added by the Councel, doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance, and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises.

Rainoldes.

Alas. And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason, that because our nature doth neede outward helpes, therefore some things should be pronounced softly, some aloude? For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes, which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen, is kMatt. 13.23. Act. 13.15. 1. Cor. 14.19.the hearing of his word. His word is rehersed in the Epistle, the Gospell, the Canon, and other partes of the Masse. The Masse lCon. Tride…t. Sess. 22. cap. 8.you forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people: so that if all were 1. King. 18.28.cryed as loude as Baals seruice, the people could not vnderstand it. Yet not content with that, you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice, that the poore soules may not as much as heare it. Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite, is this in effect, that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde▪ which is rehearsed in the Masse: therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce, that they may not heare it; part with a lowder, but in a strange toong, that, although they heare it, they may not vnderstand it. And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent, that made them write so droonkenly? Yea, mSess. 22. ca…. … Anathema fit.with a curse to seale it too?

Hart.

They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church, whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice, is to be condemned: or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onelyonly in the vulgar toung. And great reason why.

Rainoldes.

No dout. For as nIoh. 9.22.the Iewes, when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God, agréeed, that if any man confessed him to be Christ, he should be excommunicated: so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vsus, when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vsus.

Hart.

The customes are Catholike and religious rites, which they do establish with the seueritie of the curse.

Rainoldes.

Catholike, and religious, to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word? Catholike, and religious, to hauehave the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church, the faithfull people, vnderstand not?

Hart.

Yea, Catholike, and religious, if you marke the reasons which they giuegive thereof. For of oSess. 22. ca…. 5.the one, they shew, that the Church hath ordeined it: of pcap. 8.the other, that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung.

Rainoldes.

Not the ancient Fathers? Why, qIustin. Mart. apolog. 2. Tertullian. in apologet. Cyprian. de orat. Dom. Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 8. Augustin. de catechizand. rudib. cap. 9.they are cleere for it: and rIsidor. de of…ic. eccles. l. 1. c. 10. Cyrillus, Aen. Silu. hist. Bohem. cap. 13. Io. Beleth de diuin. of…ic. in prooem. Lyra in 1. Cor. 14. Caietan. opusculor. Tom. 3. tractat. 15.yonger Fathers too. Yea, Fathers both, and children, I meane the whole Churches, of al nations, in the old time; of many, euen till this day: as namely of the sLiturg. Basil. ex version. Syr. quam vocant Anaphoram.Syrians, tBellon. obseruat. l. 3. c. 12.Armenians, uAuentin. annal. Boior. lib. 4.Slauonians, xSigismund. Lib. in comm…nt…rer. Moscouit.Moscouites, and yF…an. Aluar. in descript. A… thiop. cap. 11.Ethiopians.

Hart.

What so euer Churches or Fathers doo, or hauehave doon: it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent. And they, being Bishops and Pastours of the Church, might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by zConfess. Augu…t. art. 7. Wirt…mberg. art. 35.your owne confessions.

Rainoldes.

They might. But our confessions withall should hauehave taught them, that as they may prouide for a1. Cor. …4. ve…. …0.things to be doon with comelines and in order: so their rites and ceremonies must be bver. 26.all to edifie. Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite, of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue, as themselues acknowlege. For cSess. 22. cap. 8.they write expressely, that 1…tsi: non tamen.although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people, yet the Fathers hauehave not thought it expedient 2Vt vulgari passim lingua celebraretur.that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue. Whereof this is the meaning, to open it in plainer words, that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome, praying, and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue, in deede doth not edifie: yet must stand for policie, to keepe their Churches credit. For if they should yéeld that they hauehave erred in one thing, men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more. And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration *Secreté profer… verba consecrationis, Ho… est corpus meum. In Canon. Missae.secretly, that the faithfull may not heare them. For in saying that dConcil. Tridēt. Sess. 22. c. 5.the Church hath ordeined that rite, they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not. Nay, eThom. Aquin. Summ. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 7…. art. 1. D. Harding in his answere to the 16. art. of B. Iewels chalenge.their owne men teach that fLuk. 22.19.the example of Christ, and gClem. constitut. Apost. lib. 8.the order of his Apostles, with hAmbros. de sacrament. lib. 4. c. 5. Leo Serm. 6. de …eiun…o 7. men…is. Iustinian. in Authent. 137. §. Ad haec iubemus.the Fathers too, is manifest against it. Beside that, in calling it iConcil. Tridēt. Sess. 22. can. 9.a rite of the Church of Rome, they signifie that other Churches do not vse it, no not kChrysost. Li…urgia. Bessario de sacrament. …ucharist.the Greeke Church. And yet against the practise of Churches, of Fathers, of Apostles, and of Christ, they say that a dumbe shew (which lAs Pope In…ocentius the third saith in his treatise of the Mysteries of the Masse. lib. 3. cap. 1.crept in by custome) was ordeined by our holy mother the Church: and, as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit, they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it.

Hart.

Although Christ (we grant) did vtter the words of consecration openly; and the Apostles, and Fathers, and other Churches also hauehave kept the same rite: yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrarie. For rites may be changed as it shall séeme best to them who gouerne the Church: and there was great reason why they should change this, to weete, mThe reason, that Pope Innocentius the third (in the same place) giu…th of it.least those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt, whiles all in a maner knowing them, through common vse, would sing them in the streetes and other places not conuenient. In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Masse and Mattins, and all the Church-seruice should rather be in Latin, then in the vulgar tongue. For of familiar vse there groweth contempt: and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not; thing… common are despised.

Rainoldes.

A great ouersight of our Sauiour Christ, who willed his Apostles nMatt. 10.27.to speake that in the light, which he had told them in darknes; and, what they heard in the eare, that to preach on the howses. For men would despise his gospel, if they knew it: as they doo meate who hauehave it. And what meant S. Paule to disclose o1. Cor. 11. ver. 24.the words of consecration to the Corinthians? Yea, in their vulgar tongue too? And that with instruction, pver. 26.to shew foorth th… Lords death vntill he came, as oft as they receiued the sacrament? Did he go about to bring the words of consecration, and death of Christ, into contempt? Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet, of whom he might hauehave learned that they must be vttered not onelyonly in a strange tongue, but also closely and in silence, least men, if they heare them, do know them through vse, and sing them in the streetes? But wil you sée? Your qSe…s. 22. cap▪ 8.Fathers of the Trent-councel were ouershot a litle, when they ordeined that Pastours and all who hauehave cure of soules should 1Frequenter.often times expound (by them selues, or by others,) somewhat of those things which are read in the Masse: and rSess. 24. cap. 7.explane the scripture to the faithful people 2Vernacula lingua.in their mother tongue. In the Latin toong if they had willed them to to do it, the order had agréed better with your doctrine: the people would hauehave wondred at it. Now the knowlege of it is like to breede contempt. Beside there is danger, least, by hearing of it often times expounded, men become to wise, and smell out your abuses. The lesse they doo know: the fitter to be Papists. For sRom. 10.3.ignorance is the mother of Popish deuotion: as t2. Pet. 1.5.knowlege is the nurse of Christian religion.

Hart.

We acknowlege that uDist. 38. c…. Ignorantia.ignorance is the mother of all errors: neither do we séeke to noosell Christians in it, but to weane them from it, as those decrées of the Councell do sufficiently shew.

Rainoldes.

They shew sufficiently that you professe so: but how well you séeke it, the former decrées of the rites, by which the people is nooseled in ignorance, do more sufficiently shew. Nether is it likely that all Pastours and Curates shall hauehave skil and leasure to expound the scripture to the people often. It may be that the seruice, read, and heard in a knowen tongue, would teach them more in a day, then some of them will in a moonth. Or if euerie Church had as good a Pastour, as Paule wisheth Timothee to be, that would x2. Tim. 2.15.diuide the word of truth a right: yet they, being vsed yAct. 13. ver. 15.to heare the scripture read, should vnderstand him better, as zver. 17.the Iewes did Paule, and be (through Gods grace) aAct. 17. ver. 11.the readier bver. 12.to beleeue him. And sith cSess. 22. cap. 8.the Trent-fathers declare this expounding therefore to be néedefull, least Christs sheepe be famished, or dLament. 4.4.the young children aske bread & no man breake it to them: it had béene their dutie withall to consider that God would hauehave the table of his children furnished with this bread eCol. 3.17.plenteously, and as fPsal. 23.5.Dauids table with a cup running ouer, to kéepe them in good liking, not onelyonly that they be not famished. At least, howsoeuer they smooth their practise in this point, it is sure that their reason is beside all reason, when gConcil. Triden. Sess. 22. c. 4.they say that because the nature of men doth neede outward helpes for raysing of it vp to think vponupon the things of God, therefore hath the Church ordeined those rites, that some things in the Masse should be pronounced with a soft voice, and some things with a lowder: the one, not to be heard; the other, not to be vnderstood. And yet herein their dealing is the more plaine, that they doo acknowlege the Church to hauehave ordained these rites. For if they would hauehave hardned their faces, and said, that they receiued them from the Apostles by tradition: they might as well hauehave said it, and proued it as soundly, as they doo of others, lightes, incense, vestiments, and all the rest of their beggerie.

Hart.

Beggerie call you that, which setteth foorth the blessed sacrifice of the Masse with so comely ceremonies, to the consolation and instruction of the faithfull?

Rainoldes.

Nay, the name of beggerie is to good for it. For if S. Paule called the ceremonies of the Iewes Gal. 4.9.weake and beggerly rudiments, when they were matched with the gospel: what name deserue yours, ordeined not of God, as theirs, but of men?

Hart.

You doo vsus great iniurie to apply S. Paules words, spoken of the Iewish ceremonies which should cease, to ours which should continue. Much more, in that you say that God ordeined not ours, as he did theirs. For he ordeined theirs by Moses, and ours by S. Paul.

Rainoldes.

By S. Paul? Fye? And who tolde you so?

Hart.

S. iEpist …8. ad I…nuar. cap. 6.Austin saith that all that order of doing which the whole Church obserueth through the world in consecrating, offering, and distributing of the Eucharist (which order of dooing we doo call the Masse) was ordeined by S. Paul.

Rainoldes.

Your kTorrensis in confession. Augustinian, lib. 1. cap. 8. tit. 6.Iesuit in déede maketh that note vponupon S. Austin. And if his meaning be thereby to proue onelyonly so much of that order, as the whole Church obserued through the world in S. Austins time: then doth he disproue your ceremonies quite, yea some what more then ceremonies. For behold he mentioneth the distributing of the Eucharist, that is of the bread and cuppe of thankes-giuing: both the which you distribute not in any Masse; in priuat Masses, neither. But if he meant as lMotiu. 9.Bristow did, and you would hauehave him, that S. Paul ordeined al that order of dooing which your Church obserueth and calleth it the Masse: your Councell doth disproue him. For they confesse that the Church of Rome hath certaine rites, mConcil. Tri…dent. Sess. 22. cap. 5.neither ordeined by S. Paul, n…ap. 8. & can. 9▪nor obserued through the whole Church. And S. Austin speaketh of nothing but that which the whole Church obserued, as namely the receyuing of the Sacrament fasting: which custome being kept alike of all Christians, he gathereth on S. Pauls wordes to the Corinthians (10 Cor. 11.34 other thinges will I set in order when I come) that he ordeined it.

Hart.

It is true, S. Austin doth speake of those rites, which the whole Church obserued through the world without any change or diuersitie of maners. But so much the more doth he proue the doctrine of the Councell of Trent. For the rites, which pSess. 22. cap. 5.they say, the Church hath receiued from the Apostles by tradition, are namely mysticall *Benedictione….blessinges, lightes, incense, vestiments, and many other such thinges. And for these S. Austins witnesse is of force that S. Paul ordeinedal that order of dooing which we call the Masse. For the proofe whereof you may sée a cléerer testimonie of his in qEpist. 59. …d Paulinsi quaest. 5.an epistle to Paulinus, quoted by Torrensis, vponupon the same place of S. Austins confession.

Rainoldes.

And in that also Torrensis doth … you. For S. Austin there, writing to a Bishop who had inquired of him how those wordes differ one from an other in S. r1. Tim. 2.….Paul, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giuing of thankes, doth tell him that he thinketh thereby is vnderstood that, which all the church, or in a maner all practiseth, to weete, that supplications are those which are made in celebrating of the sacramēts before that which is vponupon the Lordes table beginne to bee blessed; prayers, when it is blessed, and sanctified, and prepared to be distributed, and diuided; intercessions, when the people is blessed and offered to God by their Pastours as it were by aduocates; which thinges being doon, and the sacrament receyued, the giuing of thankes doth knit vp all, which S. Paul in those wordes remmbreth also last. Now, what is there here more for your Masse, then for our Communion? Or if our Communion, which differeth from your Masse no lesse then light from darkenesse, yet hath all these thinges which S. Austin toucheth as meant by S. Paul: what face hath Torrensis, who saith that S. Paul is auouched by S. Austin to hauehave ordeined all that order of dooing which you call the Masse? Is this your Iesuites dealing with the auncient Fathers to make them fetch your Massing rites from the Apostles?

Hart

Yet euen there S. Austin doth mention blessing twise▪ and that out of S. Paul. Whereby the first point, which the Councell of Trent nameth, is approued, to wéete, of mysticall blessinges.

Rainoldes.

True, if the Councell had meant by Ble…ing, and to blesse. Gr. foreign, & foreign. Lat. benedictio, & benedicere.that worde, as the scripture doth, either sMat. 26.26.the giuing of thankes vntounto God, or t1. Cor. 10.16.the sanctifying of creatures vntounto holy vses, or uNum. 6.23.praying for the people, that the Lord will blesse them. But if they meant the making of the signe of the crosse, as it is plaine they did, both by the matter which that▪ chapter handleth touching visible signes, and by their intent to confirme the ceremonies which Protestants condemne, and by the Canon of the Masse which is as ful of crosses as xErasm. collo. in Exorcism.a coniurers circle, and the worde [*Bene ✚ dixit …n Can. Missae. he blessed] is taken so there with a crosse in the middest of it: then your mysticall blessinges of the Trent-fathers were neither meant by S. Paul, nor mentioned by S. Austin.

Hart.

Yes: S. Austin séemeth to mean… there by [blessing] …he … of the signe of the crosse on the sacrament. For in a …rmon of his touching the same matter, he saith that the body of Christ is consecrated with the signe of the crosse.

Rainoldes.

In what sermon is that?

Hart.

Amongst his sermons de tempore, ySermon· 181. de tempore.the hundred eightieth and one.

Rainoldes.

That is amongst his sermons, but none of his sermons. For it vseth the wordes of Gregorie, a Bishop of Rome who liued long after: and mo thinges it hath by which it is certaine (as zCensur. serm. 59. in append. de diuersis. Tom. 10.your Diuines of Louan note) that it is not S. Austins. Howbeit neither he that did compile that sermon, whosoeuer it were, saith that the ceremonie of the crosse in consecrating was of S. Paules ordinance, or a tradition of the Apostles: which is the point that you had to proue by S. Austin; and, if you proue it not, you doo not cléere the Trent-councell. For I graunt that aAugustin. in Euang. Iohan…. Tract. 11….in S. Austins time, yea bChrysostom. demonstrat. quód Christus fit Deus.before it, the Christians, as they vsed to signe their forhead with the crosse, in token that they were not ashamed of Christ crucified, whom the Iewes and Gentiles reproched for the death which he suffered on the crosse: so they brought the rite thereof into the sacraments, and vsed both the figure of the cross… and crossing in other thinges of God also. But it doth not folow because the Christians did it, therefore the Apostles ordeined it to be doon.

Hart.

But it is likely that they did. And certainely cDe coron… militis.Tertullian, a very ancient writer, doth expresly say that Christians had it by tradition.

Rainoldes.

To signe their forhead with a crosse, but not to signe the sacraments. Tertullian was so ancient, that he wrote (it séemeth) before that custom grew. Besides, you mistake him if you thinke he meant by the name of [tradition] a tradition of the Apostles. For what soeuer custome not writen in the scripture was kept by the faithfull, that, because it was deliuered by some body from whom the vse thereof was taken, hee saith it came in by tradition. In so much that he affirmeth it both of 1Apud Iudaeo….Iewish customes before the Apostles, as that their women couered their faces with vailes: and of Christian after, which yet are not Apostolike, as, 2Ter mergitamur: lactis & mellis concordiam praegustamus.the dipping thri…e of them who are baptized, and feeding them with milke and hony. And, (which plainely sheweth hee meant not the Apostles in it,) 3Omni fideli.eueryevery faithfull man may (by his iudgement) deuise such rites vponupon reason: neither must we respect the autours, but the autoritie; & 4Saluo traditionis respectu, quocunque trad…tore censetur▪regard the thing deliuered, whosoeuer did deliuer it. Wherefore the tradition, that Tertullian speaketh of, is against the doctrine of your Trent-councell. For neither doth he mention the signe of the crosse to hauehave béene vsed in consecration, which he would of likelyhood if then it had béene vsed: nor saith he that it came by tradition frō the Apostles in that sort as it was vsed, but he knoweth not from whom.

Hart.

Though none of th… Fathers perhaps beare witnesse of it: yet if the Councell meant it by mysticall blessinges, they knew that the Church had it from the Apostles. For els they would not vouch it.

Rainoldes.

Then you were best to say that they learned it from heauen by reuelation: dSleidan. comment. l. 6. & 10.as the Anabaptists are wont to doo their mysteries. For els they could not know it.

Hart.

You confesse your selfe that S. eIn euang. Iohann. Tract. 118.Austin and others of the auncient Fathers did vse it in celebrating of the holy sacraments. I maruaile why you like it not in our Masse, sith wee doo therein but as the Fathers did.

Rainoldes.

Nay, I cōfesse not that. For your Massing-priest doth tricke i… as a fWierus de praestigijs daemon …. …. cap. 4. & 10.sorcerer, all in mathematicall or rather magicall numbers: gIn Canone Missae, & communione.by crossing thrise the bread, and wine, both together, and thrise againe both; then once each in seueral, and once againe each: and againe thri…e, & once; and againe once, and thrise, with a crosse on him selfe betwixt: hetherto with his hand: after with the host he crosseth thrise the chalice; and twise (to make vp fiue) betwene his brest and the chalice▪ next with the pa…en he …osseth once himself, and the chalice thri…e witha péece of the host, and once himselfe againe with the host ouer the paten, and lastly once him selfe againe with the chalice; all these in the Canon and Communion of the Masse, besid… hRitus celebrandi Mis…am.a number mo before he cometh to the Canon. But the auncient Fathers and namely S. Austin were farre from such mysticall toyi…ges with the sacrament. Pope Hildebrandes magi…e, that so many cros…es, though yet not so many as you are growne to now, but iMicrolog. de eccle…iast. obseruationib. cap. 14.the tradition of Pope Hildebrand that crossinges must come in by one, or three, or fiue, 1Imparem numerum semper obseruamus.still in an odde number, after Numero Deus impare gaudet.the rule of kVirgil. in Pharmaceutria. Eclog. 8.old sorcerers, was a profounder rite of mystical blessinges, then either S. Austin, or other ancient Fathers vsed.

Hart.

Pope Gregorie the seuenth (named Hildebrand before his Popedome, kept not those odde numbers for any magicall fansie, though mBenno Cardinalis in histor. de vita Hildebrandi.Benno charge him falsly with that diuelish art: but to note a mysterie. For nMicrolog. de obseruat. ecclesiast. cap. 14.he said that one, or three, or fiue crosses must therefore still be made, because by one, and three, we signifie one God in trinitie; by fiue, the fiue partes of the passion of Christ ▪

Rainoldes.

As who say oCornel. Agrippa de occulta Philosophia l. 2. c. 4. & 6. & 8. De vanitate scientiar. c. 47. & 48.magicians had not the like mysteries in their odde numbers too. And if Pope Hildebrand would hauehave had pElement. magica Petr. de Aban. in prae…at.a circle made about the Priest to keepe the deuill from him while he is saying Masse: there were a mysterie for that also, to weete, that it signifieth God, who nether hath beginning, nor ende.

Hart.

Nay, the circle is a ceremonie proper to coniurers: and he would neuer hauehave admitted it. But, in that he kept an odde number alwaies in making of crosses vponupon the oblation: he did as he had learned in Rome, where he was brought vp vnderunder ten of his predecessours. And that, which he lerned there, was the tradition of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

So qThe auto… of the treatise intitled Micrologus de ec…lesiast. obse ru. cap. 14.his scholer saith; and he saith truly, for sundry pointes of that he learned: as namely, that r…ap. 18. & 19.the people did, and must receiue the sacrament with the Priest, and that, vnderunder both kindes. Which sheweth (by the way) that your priuate Masse, and Communion vnderunder one kinde, was against the tradition and order of the Apostles, by the iudgement of the Church of Rome and Popes them selues *For Hildebrand was Pope in the yeare of Chris… 1084.aboue a thousand yeares after Christ. But the making of crosses on the sacrament still in an odde number was so farre from being a thing deliuered by the Apostles, that the Church of Rome had then begoon it lately, if yet the Church began it, and not Pope Hildebrand were rather the father & first inuentour of that mysterie. For Bishop sAmalar. Fortumat. episcopus Treuirens. de ecclesiast. offic. lib. 3. cap. 24.Amalarius, who liued two hundred yeares or thereabout before Hildebrand, and did both know and reuerence the order of the Church of Rome, hauing said that it sufficeth to make a crosse once vponupon the bread and wine, because Christ was once crucified, addeth, that it is not amisse to make it twise, because he was crucified for two kindes of people, that is, the Iewes and the Gentiles. Whereto tcap. 26.he noteth farther, that the Priest made two crosses with the host neere vntounto the chalice, to signifie that Christ was taken down from the crosse being crucified for two peoples. And this which he reporteth of two, was uOrdo Rom. de officiis diuinis. cap. de …fficio Missae.the order of the Church of Rome before Hildebrand came: who controlled it (as appéereth by xMicrolog. de obseruat. ecclesiast. ca. 17.his scholer) vponupon this reason, that Christ had no wound in his side but one, and therefore but one crosse must be made beside the chalice. Which reason is so good, that it may séeme straunge why the reformers of your yMissale Romanum ex decret… sacros. concil. Trident. restitutum, in Rit. celebrandi Missam, & Canone Missae.Masse-booke hauehave kept the former order against the rule of Pope Hildebrand: vnlesse perhaps they thought that Hildebrand misliked it not so much for that reason as for the number of two; zCornel. Agrippa de occult. philosoph. l. 2. c. 5.which number, the sooth-sayers and sorcerers hol… to be naught. But hereby them selues hauehave opened their iudgement, that not all which Hildebrand is said to hauehave learned vnderunder ten of his predecessours was the tradition of the Apostles. And it is worth the noting how these mysticall blessings, which at Trent were fathered on the Apostolike tradition, hauehave lately got that parentage by the helpe of such as was Hildebrands scholer, whē before they séeme not to hauehave béene accounted so. For aDe ecclesiast. offic. l. 3. c. 24.Amalarius, (whom I named,) a man that was likely for zeale to speake the best, for skill to know the most that might be said of the seruice and ceremonies of the Church; he had read so much and trauailed so farre euen to Rome, and that in embassage from the Emperour to conferre with the Pope about them: yet this Amalarius, speaking of the signe of the crosse which they vsed to make in consecratiō, leaueth it in dout whether Christ made any when he did blesse the bread, or rather thinketh he made none, because the crosse at that time was not yet set vp; but now (saith he) wee know that it must be made, for S. Austin saith so. Where it is not probable that he would hauehave grounded it on mans autoritie, if he could hauehave said that either Christ had vsed it, or, though Christ vsed it not, yet the Apostles had ordeined it. No more, then that after the testimonie of S. Austin he would hauehave iudged it sufficient to crosse the bread and wine once, if he had thought that so many crosses, as you make, were to be required by S. Austins iudgement.

Hart.

Thus you reproue vsus as varying from S. Austin, because we make so many. What may we say of you who make none at all? Who nether vse it in consecration of the holy sacraments, nor signe your forheads with it, nor set it in your Churches, nor allow it in the sanctifying of meates and other creatures. Though all these things were doon by the ancient Fathers, in remembrance of him who dyed for vsus on the crosse: yea, though Christ himselfe hauehave commended to vsus the signe thereof by miracles, as the storie of Constantine the Emperour doth witnesse; bEuseb. de vita Constantin. lib. 1. cap. 22.who saw it in the element with these wordes writen by it, *In hoc signo vince. Alan. Cop. dialog. 4. cap. 3.In this signe ouercome; and was charged in a dream to make the forme and likenes of that which he had séene, and vse it as a defense against his enimies assaultes; which he did accordingly, and mightily subdued them by it. But nether the vision of Christ vntounto Constantine, nor that and other miracles which hauehave béene wrought by it, nor the practise of the primitiue Church and ancient Fathers can preuaile with your men, but that they must séeke to raze out from among Christians so worthy and notable a monument of Christes passion. And yet you will beare the simple people in hand that you are of the same religion that they were, when you plucke down that which they did set vp, and do cleane contrarie vntounto them.

Rainoldes.

The signe that appeered to Constantine in the element, was a signe of the name of Christ, not of his crosse: howsoeuer the coiners and cMartials … tise of the Crosse, art. 2. Harpsfieldes Cope, dialog. 4.crosse-maintainers of your Church do falsly paint it out. For, as dDe vit. Constantin. l. 1. c. 25.Eusebius writeth, (vntounto whom Constantine did report the thing, and shewed him that ensigne which he had caused to be made in the likenesse thereof,) it was the forme of 1foreigna speare standing straight vpright, with 2foreigna crowne at the toppe of it, & as it were 3foreigna horne which 4foreign. which words, translated amisse by interprete…, (erat litera … inserta in medio literae …) hauehave occasioned …ome to make the signe otherwise then Eusebius describeth it.did crosse the middest of the speare a slope. So that it represented two of the Greeke letters, foreign and foreign: which being the first letters of the name of Christ, the name of Christ was signified by that signe to Constantine. Thus he describeth it, who saw it.

Hart.

But out of dout eDe vit. Constantin. lib. 1. cap. 22.he calleth it the signe, or the monument of the crosse ^q also.

Rainoldes.

But fcap. 25.him selfe sheweth that he called it so, because it resembled some what 5foreign.the signe of a crosse. For nether was it like the crosse of Christ fully, which had The figure of the letter T. Tertullian. aduers. Marci…. lib. 3. Hiero. lib. 3. commentar▪ in Ezech. cap. 9.an other figure: and, where he describeth it, he saith in plaine termes that it was 6foreign.a signe of the name of Christ. Nether were those words that you rehearsed writen by it, In this signe ouercome, as your hD. Harpsfield in his Cope. Dialog. 4. c. 3.Doctor saith, (belike because he read it coyned in y^e cruseado so, or in the por…igue:) but, 7foreign. Euseb. de vit. Constan. lib. 1. c. 22.By this ouercome; as if God, shewing him the name of Christ, should hauehave said vntounto him, that iAct. 4.12.there is giuen no other name vnderunder heauen wherby he must be saued. In the which meaning it seemeth that Constantine did vnderstand it also: because kEuseb. de vita Constant. lib. 1. cap. 25.he vsed afterward to cary in his helmet, not the signe of the crosse, but those two letters by which the name of Christ was represented to him. Howbeit, if it were so, that not the name onelyonly of Christ but his crosse too were meant by that signe, as lcap. 26.the Bishops tooke it, who therupon taught Constantine the mysterie of Christ crucified; yet nether that vision, nor Constantines victories, nor other miracles wrought thereby, nor practise of the faithfull in the primitiue Church doth proue that we hauehave doon amisse in plucking downe the signe of the crosse, wherewith you en…ite vsus; or that we are not of the same religion that they were who did set it vp. For tell me, what thinke you of the brasen serpent, mNum. 2….8.which God commanded Moses to set vp in the wildernes? Was it not nIoh. 3.14.a figure of the passion of Christ?

Hart.

Yes. But what of that?

Rainoldes.

And there were many miracles also wrought by it. For, when the Iewes were stoong by the fyerie serpents, oNum. 21.9.they looked on the serpent of brasse, and were healed.

Hart.

If they were: what then?

Rainoldes.

Yet p2. King. 18.4.king Ezekias, a man of the same religion that Moses was, did breake it in peeces: and he did well in it.

Hart.

He brake the brasen serpent in péeces I graunt: but that was because the children of Israel did burne incense to it.

Rainoldes.

So hauehave we pluckt downe the signe of the crosse, because you burne incense to it, M. Hart.

Hart.

Nay, that we do not.

Rainoldes.

It is writen in your qTit. …itus· celebrandi Missam.Masse-booke, that in solemne Masses the Priest 1Facta eruci …euerentia … in censat.hauing made obeysance to the crosse doth incense it thrise.

Hart.

But that is not to burne incense as the Iewes did. For they had a superstitions estimation of the serpent, putting trust and affiance in it.

Rainoldes.

So hauehave you a superstitious estimation of the crosse. For you thinke it a speciall defense against the diuell; and (by your common phrase) they do blesse them selues who signe their brestes with it; and you carry about you crosses made of mettall, with an opinion that you are the safer thereby, as 2Superstitios… mulierculae.superstitious women in S. rHieron. comment. in Matt. cap. 23. Super phylacteria Ph… risaeorum.Ieroms time did the wood of the crosse.

Hart.

If any doo it of superstition, as those women did: we reproue them with S. Ierom. But the Iewes did worship the brasent serpent as God: and we doo not the crosse so.

Rainoldes.

If any do it as those women, which your crossecariers doo: they doo it of superstition. But how did the Iewes worship the serpent, as God?

Hart.

S. sDe ciuit. Dei. lib. 10. cap. 8.Austin saith that they did worship it as an idole: which is to make a God of it. And Ezekias shewed the same in effect, by that t2. King. 18.4.he called it nechushtan, that is, brasen-stuffe: as if he should hauehave saide, that it had no diuine power, which they by errour thought it had.

Rainoldes.

The Iewes gaue uExod. 30.8.the honour of God to a creature, in that they burned incense to it. And therefore Ezekias did call it brasen-stuffe; as if we should call your roodes wooden-stuffe, your Agnus-deis waxen stuffe, your crucifixes and crosses made of copper, copper-stuffe, because you impart the honour of God to them, by putting trust and hope in them. And if xEphes. 5.….the couetous man be called an idolater, because he maketh mony his God, not as though he thought the coyne to be God, but because he trusteth to liue and prosper by it, yIer. 17.7.which confidence and hope he should repose in God onelyonly: then worship you the signe of the crosse as an idole, because you trust to bee saued by it, as in your zBreuiar. Roman. Sabbat. in hebd. quarta quadrag.Church-seruice you professe notoriously, and so aThomas A…quin. Sum. Theolog. part. 3. quaest▪ 2…. art. 4. Andrad. orthod. explicat. lib. 9.your selues confesse you worship it as God. Wherefore if b2. King. 18. ver. 3. & 5.Ezekias be praised by God, for breaking in peeces the serpent of brasse, because the children of Israel did burne incense to it: we who hauehave remoued the signe of the crosse because you put the hope of saluation in it, may content our selues to bee dispraysed by men. But if you say therefore, that we be against the ancient Fathers in religion, because we plucke downe that which they did set vp: take héede least your speech doo touch the holy Ghost, who saith that Ezekias cver. 6.did keepe Gods commandements, which he commanded Moses, and yet withall saith that dver. 4.he brake in peeces the serpent of brasse which Moses had made. And if you will not learne this lesson of me, yet learne it of eDist. 63. c. Q…a. §. verum.the Canon law, that, if our predecessours hauehave done some thinges which at that time might bee without faute and afterwarde be turned to errour, & superstition: we are taught by Ezekias breaking the brasen serpent that the posteritie may destroy them without any delay, and with great autoritie.

Hart.

The diuine worship with the which we honour the image of the crosse, is proued by S. fThom. Aquin. Sum. Theolog. part. 3. qu…st. 25. art. 3. & 4.Thomas to be due thereto. For, the honour of an image is referred to that which the image resembleth: and the motion of our minde is the same to the image of a thing, as an image, and to the thing it selfe. Wherefore, sith the crosse doth represent Christ, who died vponupon a crosse, and Christ is to bee worshipped with diuine honour: it foloweth that the crosse is to bee worshipped so too. Yet you and your men are still obiecting to vsus our honouring of the crosse, as though we committed idolatry therein. In good sooth, Maisters, ye are too young to controll the Church of Rome in her dooings.

Rainoldes.

So M. gConfutat. of the Apolog. part. 4.Harding telleth vsus of the citie of Rome, when we controll her stewes. And in deede you hauehave almost as much reason to speake for the maintenance of this spirituall whooredome, which you commit with the crosse: as he for the carnal, which they commit with Courtisans. Now wel had it fared with the brasen serpent, if Thomas had béene schoolemaister to king Ezekias. For he would hauehave taught him, that sith the brasen serpent did represent Christ, and Christ was to be worshipped with diuine honour: therefore the brasen serpent was to bee worshipped so too. You are angrie when wee say that you worship the Pope, h2. Thes. 2.4.as God. Me thinkes you should graunt it. Sure you might defend it by this Schoolediuinitie. For, though he beare one way iReu. 13.14.the image of the beast: yet in that he is a man, hee is k1. Cor. 11.7.an image of God, whom he resembleth more liuely then any crosse or crucifix doth represent Christ. But to returne to the mysticall blessings of the Masse, which you went about to fetch by S. Austin from the Apostolike tradition: you sée that neither they, nor incense, nor lightes, nor vestiments, nor the rest of that suite of ceremonies are mentioned at all, much lesse auouched to be Apostolike, in that of S. Austin which your Iesuite groundeth on.

Hart.

I know that S. Austin doth intreate rather of the substance of the Masse, then of the ceremonies, in that place. But lEpist. 118.2… Ianuarium.in the other which I cited he doth intreate of customes: and so, that he proueth the ceremonies of the Masse to hauehave come from the Apostles. For of the thinges (saith he) which we keepe by tradition, it is to bee thought that such as are obserued through the whole world were either ordeined by the Apostles them selues, or by generall Councels. Wherefore sith the ceremonies of incense, lightes, vestiments, and other of the like sorte were not ordeined by generall Councels: it followeth by S. Austin, that the Apostles did ordeine them.

Rainoldes.

That rule of S. Austin, is probable, not necessarie. For though it be likely that there was no custome obserued by the Church through the whole world, which it had not from the Apostles, chiefly, seeing mSocrat. histo… ▪ eccles. lib. 5. cap. 21.Christians did vary then so much in rites of all sortes: yet they might either hauehave taken vp, or kept of that they had before, some thing which the Apostles deliuered not vntounto them. But admit his rule as an vndouted principle to your most aduantage: and yet are you no neerer the proofe of those ceremonies. For how can you proue that incense, lightes, vestiments, and the rest of your baggage were vsed at that time through the whole world?

Hart.

Incense to hauehave béene vsed,nEccles. …ierat…chiae cap. 3. I hauehave proued by S. Denys Areopagita: lightes, by S. Austin.

Rainoldes.

But you hauehave not proued that they were vsed through the whole world, either by S. Austin, or by S. Denys. oIn Concil. Carthag. 4. c…n▪ 6.Nay, that Denys (who so euer he were,) doth proue the contrarie. For in his description of the Masse (as you call it) there are neither lightes, nor vestiments, nor crossinges, nor all the other ceremonies: whereby it is manifest that they were not vsed through the whole world when that Denys wrote. As for incense, howsoeuer it crept into that Church in the which he liued: it appeereth by the writinges of pIn apolog… ▪ cap. 42.Tertullian, and qAduers. ge… tes lib. 7▪Arnobius, that the Church vsed it not in their dayes. Neither is the censing, which Denys speaketh of, liker to yours: then (I shewed) your blessinges are like to S. Austins. For rDionys. Areopag. hierar. eccles. cap. 3.he hath it onelyonly once aboute the Church. But in sVit. celebrandi Missam.your solemne Masse it is vsed often, and to sundrie thinges: to the crosse, to relikes, to images, to candlestickes, to the altar, the lower part of it, and the higher, to the Priestes, to the booke, to the bread and wine, thrise aboue the chalice, and the host, and thrise about them, to the altar, and the Priest againe and againe, to the quire, to the deacon, to the subdeacon, to the people; and, in Masses for the dead, to the sacrament also at the time of the eleuation. So that, if the wordes of the tSess. 22. cap. 5.Trent-councell be weighed with your practise: you will léese the countenance of that which Denys sheweth to. For with him it is incense in the singular number. Your Masses and the Councell hau… *Thymiamata.incenses in the plurall. By the which word if the Councell meant to note all the censinges that are vsed in Massing, as they did of likelyhood: then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense. Though, whatsoeuer he make, he maketh nought for your reason: because he proueth not that it was vsed through the whole world. Now the lights, which your Iesuite hath founde in S. uConfession. Augustin. lib. 3. cap. 11. tit. 2.Austin, make lesse a greate deale for it. For S. xDe tempore. In Natali …om. Serm. 3. … Luminaria noctis.Austin calleth the lights which they vsed, ¹ lightes of the night: because they did vse them in the night time when they met at prayers, yAct. 20.8.as Christians were wont. But your Massing-lights are vsed in the day time, when the sunne shineth: a thing perhaps obserued through the whole world, but zTertullian. de idololatri….of idolatrous Heathens, not of the Church of Christ.

Hart.

Yes, that Christian Churches had also lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine while the gospel was reading, S. aCont. Vigilant.Ierom is a witnesse; and, before S. Ierom, his Maister bOrat. in Pas…ha.Nazianzen maketh mention of it; and cIn exhortat. ad …rthodox…s.Athanasius before them both. Wherefore out of dout it is an ancient custome, and that very generall.

Rainoldes.

As you say: if it be witnessed by these thrée Doctors, S. Ierom of Europe, Nazianzen of Asia, & Athanasius of Afrike. But he who saith they witnesse it, hath not read them, I thinke.

Hart.

But I thinke he hath: or rather I am sure of it. For D. dQuaestion. quodlibe…ic. 2.Stapleton saith it, in his comparison of the Catholike and Roman Churches Masse with the Lordes supper of the Protestants. Wherin as he allegeth these Doctors for this point: so he proueth all things, which your Supper wanteth and our Masse hath, to be Apostolike.

Rainoldes.

He proueth? Nay he promiseth to proue them Apostolike. For in verie truth he proueth not one: not one of all those things wherein your Masse differeth from our Lords supper. No more then he proueth this of lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine: in y^e which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to proue it. For in cEpist. ad Orthodoxos in persequut.Athanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned onelyonly: but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospell was reading, there is no such word. bOrat. in sanctum Pascha.Nazianzene speaketh of lightes that were burning vponupon Easter-euen: but 2foreign.to lighten the night, he saith, not the day.

Hart.

But speaketh he there of those night-lightes alone, and of no other light?

Rainoldes.

He speaketh of an other light, but spirituall For he saith that the most bright shining light foloweth the candle that did go before it.

Hart.

Why, that is it that sheweth the ceremonie which wée talke off. For they were wont to carry candles before the gospell when they did reade it.

Rainoldes.

They were wont afterward. But we speake of Nazianzene. And he meant nothing lesse. For by [the light] he signified Christ, eIoh. 8.11.the light of the world: and by [fIoh. 5.35. the candle] Iohn Baptist▪ gLuk. 1.76.who went before Christ to prepare his wayes. The light (saith he) shining most excellently bright foloweth the candle that did go before it; and hIoh. 1. ver. 1.the word, iver. 23.the voice; and kIoh. 3.29.the bridegrome, 3foreign.the bride man, or frend who bringeth the bride to him. Is this D. Stapletons proofe out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time?

Hart.

Of Nazianzene I know not. But certainely S. Ierom is a witnesse of it against Vigilanti…s▪

Rainoldes.

Yet these are S. Ieroms owne words in aContr. Vigilant.that treatise: We doo light 4Cereos non clara luce accendimus.tapers not in the bright…day-time, as thou doost vainely sclaunder vsus, but by this comfort to ease the darknes of the night.

Hart.

But he addeth that Churches of the east had lightes burning in the day-time, while the gospell was reading, therby to shew their ioy.

Rainoldes.

But nether this vsage of the easterne Churches was the same that yours is. For they did kéepe lightes, while the gospel was reading, and put them out after: which rite lOrdo Roman. de diuin. offic. cap. de officio Missae. Durand. in Ration. diuin. offic. lib. 4. cap. 24.you had also, and some where hauehave perhaps yet. But the generall rite which you hauehave gotten now of burning tapers still, before the gospell, and after: that in S. Ieroms time not onelyonly was vnborne in the we…, but in the …ast too. Though if the east had vsed it: yet nether were it proued so (by your reason) that the Apostles did ordeine it, because it was not vsed in the westerne Churches, & therfore not through the whole world. Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should vse it. For mDe idololatr.Tertullian saith: let them light candels dayly who hauehave no light; 5Illis competút …estimonia tenebrarum.the testimonies of darkenes doo well beseeme them.

Hart.

You may bring Tertullians werdes, when you hauehave proued that we hauehave no light: which you shall neuer doo.

Rainoldes.

Not while you are able to say with nIoh. 9.40.the Pharises, Are we blinde also? But sith there were so ancient Churches which lighted candels in the bright sunne-shine: that may be some colour for your Massing-lights. For your Massing-vestiments not so much can be found. Yet oConcil. Trident. Sess. 22. cap. 5.they are also fathered on the tradition of the Apostles.

Hart.

And D. pQuaestion. quod libetic. 2.Stapleton saith that if we list to runne through eueryevery one of them, we shall finde that the primitiue Church did vse them all.

Rainoldes.

Belike you will neuer list then. For sure you will neuer finde that.

Hart.

No? Why say you so? When himselfe hath found it, and proueth it particularly. For hitherto belongeth the plate, or Bishoply miter ▪

Rainoldes.

The miter? That is none of your Massing-vestiments.

Hart.

Though it be none of them which simple Priestes weare, yet it is a vestiment that Bishops weare at Masse.

Rainoldes.

O, that Bishops weare. Then I perceiue your Doctor meaneth to proue not onelyonly the sixe vestiments, common to all Priests, in token that they are perfit, because the sixth day the Lord did perfit heauen and earth: but also the nine which Bishops hauehave beyond them, in token that they are spirituall like the nine orders of Angels, as Pope qMysterior. Missae lib. 1. cap. 10.Innocentius and Bishop rIn Ration. diuin. offic. lib. 3. cap. 1.Durand open.

Hart.

If he proue them both: your shame is the greater, who nether vse the Priestly vestiments, nor the Bishoply.

Rainoldes.

But they both togither do make fifteene vestiments: which Bishops must put on, when they say Masse, *As Innocentius and Durand say▪ in the places quoted.to signifie the fifteene degrees of vertues (according to the fifteene psalmes of degrees) wherewith they must be clad. And, I may tell you, it will be as hard to proue that any Bishop did weare those fifteene vestiments in the primitiue Church: as, that eueryevery Bishop, who weareth them in yours, hath the the fifteene degrees of vertues which they signifie.

Hart.

Well, if you will hearken vntounto D. Stapleton: hehath proued more, then may be with your liking. For hitherto belongeth the plate, or Bishoply miter, which Iohn the Euangelist did weare, as Polycrates the Bishop of Ephesus saith in the storie of sLib. 3. cap. 2….Eusebius. Hitherto the Priestly attire of the head, mentioned by tIn. lib…, de monogamia.Tertullian. Hitherto the stole mentioned by S. uIn Orat. suneb. de obit. fratr. Satyr.Ambrose, and by the xConcil. Bra car. 1. can. 32. & Tolet. 4. can. 39.Councels of Braga and Toledo. Hitherto the copes, which yHaeres. 15. & 16.Epiphanius calleth foreign. Hitherto the Deacons albe, as it is named in the zConcil. Car. thag. 4▪ can. 4….Councell of Carthage: aIn Liturg.Chrysostome nameth it foreign. Hitherto the robes, or hangings, with the which the altar is beautified, in the storie of bLib. 1. cap. 31.Theodoret. Hitherto the linen clothes, and the couerings, wherewith (as cLib. 6. contr. Parmenianum.Optatus doth expressely mention) altars in olde time were couered, as they are now. Hitherto the holy robe that reached downe to the feete, in dLib. 10. cap. 4▪Eusebius. To conclude, hitherto belongeth the amice, the girdle, the chisible, the fanel, and the corporace: which the Gréeke Fathers eIn Liturgii… suis.Chrysostome, and Basil, note also by their names, foreign. Which all to hauehave béene holy, and consecrated to this function, the same Fathers testifie. There is in fLib. 2. cap. 27.Theodoret a notable example of an enterlude-plaier, who wearing on a stage a holy garment, that he had bought, fell sodenly downe and dyed. Of the like vengeance of God there are examples in gDe p…rsequut. Vandal. lib. 1.Victor, and hHistor. Angli…. l. 1. cap. 29.Bede. And iLib. 1. con…a Parmenian…m▪Optatus also, more auncient then they both, doth sharply touch the Dona…ists for spoiling and profaning the o…naments of the Church.

Rainoldes.

Here is a faire tale for them, whose eyes are dim, and cannot iudge of colours. But they who can discerne betwéene wordes, and proofes, doo sée that neuer lesse was saide with greater shew. For, the pointe whereof proofe should bee made, is that the vestiments which are worne of Bishops and Priests saying Masse, were vsed all of them by the primitiue Church. The wordes which D. Stapleton speaketh of this point, are so farre from prouing it, that the most of them doo not as much as touch it. For the copes, which kHaeres. 15. & 16.Epiphanius (hee saith) calleth foreign, are the garments which the Scribes & Pharises did weare with *Matt. 23.5.phylacteries, and fri…ges. And the Scribes and Pharises (I trow) said not Masse. lLib. 1. cap. 31.The robes or hangings of the altar in Theodoret, are 1foreign.couerings. The couerings and linen clothes, in mLib. 6. contra Parmenia…um.Optatus, are ornaments of the Communion table, such as we also vse. Is our communion Masse too?

Hart.

…ay, he calleth it an altar.

Rainoldes.

By a figure, as nBefore in this Diuision. pag. 552.I hauehave shewed. For by the name of [altar] he meaneth a table, as these his wordes declare: who of the faithfull knoweth not that 2Ipsa lig…a li…teamine cooperiti?the boordes them selues are couered with a linen cloth in celebrating of the sacrament? Of this kinde is also the cloth called foreign, which worde importeth not so much as your oDurand. in Ration. l. 4. c. 29.corporace: but though it did, of this kinde it is in the counterfeit pIn the Liturgies that beare their names.Chrysostome and Basil. As for the examples of the vengeance of God on them who profanely did abuse garments appointed vntounto holy vses: the first, in qLib. 2. cap. 27Theodoret, is not of a Massing but a baptizing garment, (a peculiar solemnitie more then your selues vse:) to omit that the matter of the enterlude-player was deuised to spite a Bishop▪ whose harme was sought as hauing solde it. The second, in rPersequu…. Va…d. lib. 1.U…or, is of the linen clothes and couerings of the altar, such as I spake of in Optatus. The third, in sHistor. Anglican. lib. 1. cap. 29.Bede, is added to make vp the tale: for there is no such s…orie. Finally, the Church-ornamentes, which tLib. 1. co…tr. Parmenian.Optatus sheweth that co…etous men would hauehave spoyled, were of gold and siluer: vessels belike, & plate, wherewith S. uEpist. 2. ad Nepotian. de vita clericorum cap. 12.Ierom noteth that many (though he reproue it as Iewish and superstitious) did decke vp Christistian Churches after the example of the temple in Iury. But whether they were vessels, as dishes and cuppes for bread and wine at the Communiō, or whatsoeuer other instruments, or iewels: Optatus neither saith, nor séemeth to say, that they were Massing-vestiments. There remaineth the miter, the stole, the albe, the amice, the girdle, the chisible, & the fanel. Which first are farre beneth the number of fifteene; and so they reach not to all your Massing-vestiments. Then, for sundrie of them, it appéereth not that they were such as yours; or rather it is plaine that they were not such. Lastly, if they were such: yet how doth it folow that they came from the Apostles? Which is the point that Stapleton would and ought to proue; or els farewell the Trent-councell.

Hart.

Came not the Bishoply miter from the Apostles, which S. Iohn, an Apostle and Euangelist did weare, as you may sée in xHist. eccles. lib. 3. cap. 25.Eusebius?

Rainoldes.

Polycrates, whom Eusebius alleageth, doth not mention a miter, but foreign, that is to say, a thinne plate, such as was yExod. 28.36.the plate of golde set in the front of the miter of Aaron, the high Priest of the Iewes, that it might be vponupon his his forhead.

Hart.

But Polycrates signified a miter by that [plate,] after a figure of spéech, wherein a part is vsed to signifie the whole.

Rainoldes.

Nay, if you come to figures, it is more likely that Polycrates, in saying, S. Iohn was 1foreign.a Priest that did beare the plate, meant (by an allusion to the lawe of Moses) that he entred as it were into the sanctuarie with prerogatiue, and had the very mysteries of God *Reu. 1.1.reueled to him. Whereto S. zDescriptor. ecclesiast. verbo Polycrates.Ierom séemeth somewhat to incline: who translating the same of Polycrates touching Iohn, saith, that hee was a high Priest bearing the plate of gold vponupon his head. For if he had vsed to beare a plate of gold in déede, vponupon his forhead: sure, when aAct. 3.2.Peter saide, siluer and gold hauehave I none, to the creple who desired an almes of Peter and him, that plate would not hauehave saued his forhead from blushing. Neither is it nothing that Polycrates mentioned 2foreign, not foreign ▪ or foreign.the plate, and not a miter: sith Exod. 28.40.other of the Iewish Priests did weare 3foreign.miters; none, but th… high Priest, the plate. Howbeit, if the worde were meant as you would hauehave it, and S. Iohn had worne a miter like to Aaron: yet his example proueth not that all Apostles, much lesse that all Bishops wore it. Nay, the speciall note thereof in S. Iohn doth rather proue the contrarie: as, when we reade that cMat. 3.4.Iohn Baptist had his garment of camels heare, and a girdle of skin, we gather that all preachers wore not such apparell.

Hart.

But infulae, that is a Priestly attire of the head, which dDe monogam.Tertullian speaketh of, was common to them all: and the miter séemeth to bee the same with vsus, that infulae with him.

Rainoldes.

I graunt that the attire, which Tertullian speaketh of, doth touch your miter néerer: but it doth not proue it. For eCic. in Verr. lib. 4. Virg. Aeneid. lib. 2infulae were miters, which the heathnish Priests, as namely the 4Sacerdotes Cereris c…m infulis.Priestes of Ceres, and 5Apollinis infula.Apollo did weare in their solemnities. Of the which ceremonie Tertullian deriuing a prouerbiall phrase (after the maner of his style) doth say touching Christians, who refuse to be counted Priests, that 6Deponimus insulas.they lay downe the miters. In déede it is likely the miters of your Bishops came from that heathnish rite: although they draw some what from the Iewish custome, as fComment. reip. Roman. lib. 2. cap. 3.Wolfgangus Lazius, your friend, hath well obserued. But it is neither true, nor fit for you to hold, that it was a miter worne by Christian Priests which Tertullian meant. Not fit for you to hold: least all Priests be proued to hauehave as good right to the miter, as your Bishops; which doctrine they will neuer account of, as catholike. Not true: because your Bishoply miters were not vsed in many hundred yeres after Tertullian.

Hart.

No? Is it not writen in gDist. 96. c. …onstantimus.the donation of Constantine, that when he offered Pope Siluester a golden crown beset with gemmes, the Pope refused it, and onelyonly tooke a white miter?

Rainoldes.

What tell you me againe of that foolish forgery? Which yet doth make the first originall of the miter younger then Tertullian: But the true recordes and monuments of antiquitie doo shew that it was not bredde a greate while after. For hDe eccles. offic. lib. 2 cap. 22.Amalarius Fortunatus, and iDe institut. elericorum lib. 1. c. 14. & deinceps.Rabanus Maurus, and kDe exord. & increm. …erum eccles. cap. 24.Walafridus Strabo who liued aboue eight hundred yeares after Christ, and wrote of the vestiments which Bishops wore in their dayes, make no mention of it. And lDe diuin. offitijs. cap. de singulis vestibus.Alcuinus, the Maister of Charles the great, who liued and wrote not long before them, treating of Priestly vestiments, and therein of the miter of the Iewish Priests: 7Huius cemodi vestis nō habetur in Romana ecclesia, vel in nostris regionibus.we hauehave not (saith he) such a vestiment in the Church of Rome, or in our countries. Yea mSermon. in …ynod. de significat. indumentorum sacerdot.Iuo Carnotensis, who liued thrée hundred yeares after Alcuinus, doth shew that in his daies it was not yet come in: and, with expresse mention of the plate of golde, he saith that no Priests of the new Testament doo weare it. Wherefore the first and highest of your Massing-vestiments is nether confirmed by the plate in Eusebius, nor by the miters in Tertullian. The next is the stole: whereof you hauehave no better proofe in S. nIn oration. funebr. de obit. fratr. Satyr.Ambrose. For that, which he mentioneth, was either a towell, (as it may séeme,) or a napkin, wherein his brother Satyrus caused the sacrament to be wrapped vp, and laid it to his necke. At least, séeing Satyrus was nether Priest, nor perfit Christian: what shew hauehave you of likelihood that it was a Massing-vestiment?

Hart.

S. Ambrose calleth it orarium. And orarium is vsed in the oConcil. Tolet. 4. can. 39.Councell of Toledo for the same that stola, that is, a stole, as we call it.

Rainoldes.

But if S. Ambrose meant a stole by orarium, because the Councell meant so: then stol… in pAleuin. de diuin. offic. cap. de vestibus. Amalar. de eccles. offic. lib. 2. cap. 20.the later writers of those matters must be a womans garment, because it is so in qEtymologiar. lib. 19. cap. 25.Isidore, who liued néerer to them, then did S. Ambrose to the Councell. And as for that Councell, and the other of Braga: no marueile if the stole be mentioned in them. For they were kept at *Aboue sixe hundred years after Christ.that time when rites did steale in upon religion verie fast. Though nether was it then halfe setled in the Masse yet: as by a later rConcil. Bracarens. 3. cap. 3.Councell of Braga may be gathered. Howbeit, if it had béene: your proofe faileth still. For you may not say that because a Spanish Councel speaketh of it, therfore the Church had it by tradition of the Apostles. Unlesse you will say also, that your shauen crownes ought to be great circles about the whole head by the tradition of the Apostles, and not such little circles on the toppe of the head onelyonly, as now a daies are made: because sConcil. Tolet. 4. cap. 40.a Spanish Councell condemneth1In sol… capitis apice modicum circulum tondent. the shauing of those little circles as 2Ritus haereticorum.a rite of heretikes, and alloweth none, but great ones. So farre of the stole. There foloweth the albe. For which the Deacons albe, so named in the tConcil. Carthag. 4. can. 41.Councell of Carthage, maketh nothing. For though the name of albe be deriued from alba, by which word the Councell doth note a white garment, as it were a surplisse, forbidding the Deacōs to weare it all the seruice time: yet the thing differeth from your Massing-albe which is peculiar to Priests, as uDist. 93. cap. Diaconus in cónuentu. in glossa. Durand. in Ration diuin. offic. lib. 3. cap. 1.the Canonists also declare on the same worde of the Councell of Carthage. Which difference remoueth your proofe, out of xIn Liturg.Chrysostome, touching foreign too. For what soeuer kind of garment that were: it was common to the Deacons, not proper to the Priests; and therefore not your Massing-albe. Hitherto the holy robe (in yLib. 10. cap. 4.Eusebius,) that reached downe to the feete, should be referred by zAmalar. de ec…les. offic. lib. 2. cap. 18. Durand. in Rati. on. diuin. offic. l. 3. c. 3.their iudgement, who compare the garments of Aaron with yours. But Stapleton, who found that holy robe in Eusebius, might hauehave found withall an other meaning of it by the wordes folowing. For he, whose oration Eusebius doth report, telleth Bishops that they are clad with *foreign.the holy robe that reached downe to the feete, and with the heauenly crowne of glorie, and with the vnction of God, and with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost. Wherein, as the garment, and vnction, and crowne do signifie spirituall giftes, not thinges corporall: so the holy robe that reached downe to the feete betokeneth that function, which aforeign. Exod. 28. ver. 31.that robe bver. 35.in Aaron did represent and shadow.

Hart.

You perswade not me that he alluded so to the robe of Aaron: but that hee meant in déede a robe which Christian Bishops wore.

Rainoldes.

And what gaine you by it, if so much were granted? For you cannot proue by any circumstance of the place, that it must be a Massing-robe. The onelyonly shew of any such is in your last proofe out of the Gréeke Fathers, Chrysostome, and Basil; or rather, out of the Liturgies, which falsely beare their names; or rather, out of some copies ofthose Liturgies, wherin are mentioned the amice, the girdle, the chisible, and the fanel. Howbeit, if a man should sift the Gréeke words, out of the which you picke these, and conferre your amice with their foreign, your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment, your one coard or fanel with their mo foreign, your chisible with their foreign: perhaps he should leaue the girdle post alone to binde your proofe with. And doutlesse, in that which is most maske-like, and least beséemeth Christian Pastours at publike seruice, I meane that which the Priest at Masse weareth vppermost, the chisible you call it (I trow) or vpper vestiment: the Gréeke word declareth that you doo wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours. For the word 1Deriued frō foreign, (which worde S. Paule vseth 2. Tim. 4.13.) the same with foreign answering t… the Latin, pan…l….foreign, by the which their vpper vestiment is noted, doth signifie a cloake: a garment worne much ( cTertullia…. lib. de pallio.as single, and readie) by Christians in olde time, chiefly by the Grecians, whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities, when other wise they left it off▪ But your vpper vestiment is farre from that singlenes: nor is it like to that common garment, but to a little cottage, (whence it is named 2A diminuti… …t casa ▪ a cottage. The English worde, chisible came (as it seemeth) from that Latine casula, but doth not expre… the force of it.casula,) closing the Priest round as it were with walles, and hauing a hole for him to put out his head at, as it were a loouer-hole to let out the smoke at.

Hart.

The high Priest of the Iewes had the like robe.

Rainoldes.

Like your cottage-vestiment? Which robe was that?

Hart.

If not like our vpper vestiment altogither, yet like in that respect that it was close about, dExod. 2….3….with a hole for his head in the …ddes of it. And therefore you néede not to scoffe in such sort at that kinde of vestiment.

Rainoldes.

If you take the little cottage to be a scoffe, it is not my scoffe, but your owne eDurand. in r… t…on. diuin. offic. lib. 3. cap. 7.Doctours, whose *Casula dicitu… quasi parua casa.wordes I doo but open. Your selfe are rather faultie, who compare your cottage-ragge patched by mans braine, with a Priestly robe made by Gods commandement. And yet, in that you match your vestiment with the Iewish for the forme of it, I reproue you not. For though there be difference betwéene theirs, and yours, in sundrie respectes: yet yours were taken vp after the example, and made in likenes of theirs. Which is plainely shewed by those ancient autours whom I named before, Alcuinus, Amalarius, and Walafridus Strabo. Of whom the fAlcuin. de diuin. offic. cap. de singulis ves…ibus.first treating of Massing-vestiments, saith, that the Church receiued them 1Ad instar sacerdotum Mosaicae legis.after the facion of the Priests of Moses law. The gAmalar. de ecclesiastic. offic. lib 2. c. 22.next, that our hye Priest (he meaneth eueryevery Bishop) hath them 2Ad normam Aaronis.after the rule of Aarō. The hWalafrid. St…abo de exord. & incrementis rerum eccles. cap. 24.last, that they came in by little & little: for at the first (saith he) men celebrated Masses in common apparel, as certaine of the east Church are said to doo till this day. And so hee goeth forward shewing in particular, how Stephen, and Siluester, and other Popes, and Prelats did softly bring them in, and some deuised this, some that, either to resemble the roabes of the Iewish Priests, or to note a mysterie. To be short, it is shewed plainely by them all, that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time (which was eight hundred yeares after Christ) were but eight in number: iust as many as Aarons. Whereof the former seuen, (for the eighth was proper to Archbishops onelyonly) are growen now to be fiftéene, more then twise as many. And doo you not perceiue hereby, M. Hart, how lewdly D. Stapleton alleageth the Fathers, to proue your Massing-vestimentes all to hauehave bene vsed by the primitiue Church? How falsely the Councell of Trent doth father them, nor onelyonly them but also lightes, incense, crossinges, and other ceremonies of the Masse on the tradition of the Apostles? And sawe I not truely that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the Iewish, and so might succeed it: the cause thereof (by likelihood) is the vaile of Popery, which hauing brought in a Iewish kinde of worship doth hide it from your eyes? For is it not euident that the Iewish Heb. 1… ▪ …. Col. 2.17.shadowes, that is, the darke lineaments of Christ, as of a picture, which he abolished by his coming as being the image it selfe and body of them, are drawne out againe by the painters of your religion? Or may not he, that hath but halfe an eye, sée, that you surpasse the Iewes in sundrie shewes of outwarde seruice, and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnall rites? For the most whereof though you hauehave meanings mysticall▪ or spiritual matters which they are saide to figure in other significations then the Iewish did: yet they set the Church to schoole with new Gal. 4.3. & 5.1.rudiments after a Iewish maner, and presse it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it frée. Wherefore, were they taken from the Iewes, or not: yet in respect of vsus, on whom God hath not laide them, they are of Col. 2.22.the commandements & doctrines of men. And we may iustly say of them, now being bredde, the same, that S· mEpist. 119. ad D…ua…. cap. 1….Austin saide, when they were bréeding: Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith, yet religion it selfe which God of his mercy would hauehave to bee free vnderunder P…issimis & m…itostis. ic… celebration… s…cramen….very few and most manifest ceremonies of diuine seruice, is by them o…pressed so with seruile burdens, that the case and state of the Iewes is more tolerable; who although they hauehave not acknowledged the time of libertie, yet are they … with the packes of Gods law, not with the deuises and presumptions of men.

Hart.

It is a calumnious spéech that our ceremonies are shadowes, or rudiments, or kéepe the Church in bondage as the Iewish did. For theirs were very many, combersome, & darke: ours are v…ry few, easie, and significant. As S. nDe doctrin… Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9.Austin saith, that since that our libertie hath shined most brightly by Christs resurrection, we are not laden with a heauie charge of signes, as were the Iewes: but our Lord himselfe and the Apostolike discipline hath deliuered to vsus 2Quaedam p…uca pro multis, eadem…ue factu facillima.some few in steed of many, and them most easie to be doon, most honorable for signification, most cleane and pure to be obserued. But you would hauehave (me thinkes) no ceremonies at all: for you saide that the worship of God amongst Christians is spirituall meerely.

Rainoldes.

I spake in comparison of the Iewish worship: or rather Christ, not I. For they are his wordes, that oIob. 4. ver. 23.God will be worshipped now in spirit and truth. Which must néedes be meant of meere spirituall worship: sith the reason folowing, that pver. 24.God is a spirit, doth shew that the Iewes did worship him in spirit too. And yet is that spoken in comparison, as I saide. For Christ him selfe ordeined two principall ceremonies, which we call the sacraments, his qLuk. 2….19.Supper, and his rMatt. 28.1… ▪Baptisme. And the Church-assemblies, sAct. 2.42.which are helpes most necessarie for vsus to learne and practise that spirituall worship, must hauehave their time, when; their place, where; their maner, how; things to be directed t1. Cor. 14. ver. 40.with coomelinesse and order, in rites fit uver. 26▪to edifie. But these are few in number and cléere in signification. So few, that they are nothing in comparison of the Iewish: so cléere, that they do liuely represent Christ, and are no darke shadowes. Now whether that your Popish ceremonies hauehave kept this fewnes, and cléerenes.

Hart.

Perhaps you meane because we hauehave seuen sacraments, and not two onelyonly. But the Fathers, as namely S. Austin (though xApolog. e… cles. Anglic.your men alleage him to the contrary,) doo name other sacraments beside the Lordes Supper (as you call it) and Baptisme.

Rainoldes.

But S. Austin nameth not your seuen sacraments, as you may see by his yConfession. Augustin. lib. …. cap. 1. tit. 5.Confession.

Hart.

Yet he nameth more then your two sacraments. And the rest of ours are proued by other Fathers. Whereupon the zSess. 7. de Sacrament. in genere can. 1.Councell of Trent hath defined that there are seuen sacraments of the new law, neither more, nor fewer: & they all are sacraments truly and properly.

Rainoldes.

The aTertullian. aduers. Iudae. & contr. Marcion. lib. 5. Hilar. in Matthae. can. 12. & 13. Leo epist. 10.11.12.13. & passim.Fathers doo commonly vse the word [sacrament] for a mystery or signe of a holy thing. And so you may proue seuen and twentie sacraments by them, as well as seuen. Which is manifest by S. bEpist. 5. ad Marcellin. De ciuit. Dei lib. 10. cap. 5. Contr. aduers. leg. & Prophetarum lib. 2. cap. 9.Austin, whom you pretend herein most. For as he giueth the name of sacrament to cAugust. de bono coniug. c. 18.mariage, to dContr. epist. Parmenian. lib. 2. cap. 13.the ordering of ministers, to eDe baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 5. cap. 20.laying on of hands, and fDe adulteri…. coniug. cap. 26. & 28.reconci…ng of the repentant: so he giueth it to gEpist. 23. ad Bonifacium.Easter, and to the Lords day, hDe peccat. merit. & remission. l. 2. cap. 26.to the sanctifying and iDe symb. ad ca…echumen. lib. 4. cap. 1.instructing of nouices in the faith, the feeding, the signing, the catechizing of them, the making of prayers, the singing of Psalmes, and so forth to other holy rites and actions. But as the worde [sacrament] is taken in a straiter signification, to note the visible signes inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithfull, which is the sense of it both with kConcil. Trident. Sess. 7. in pro…m. & de Sacrament. in gen. can. 1.you, and lArticuli religion. eccles. Anglican. cap. de Sacramentis.vsus, when we speake of sacraments: so doth mDe doctrin. Christian. l. 3. c. 9. Epist. 11…. ad Ianuar▪ cap. 1.he name those two, as principall ones, by an excellencie; and, when nIoh. 19.34.there issued blood and water out of Christes side, oAugustin. de s…mb. ad catechum…nos lib. 2. cap. ….these are *Gemina sacramenta ecclesiae.the two sacraments (saith he) of the Church, meaning the Lordes supper by blood, by water baptisme. Yea, the Schoolemen them selues, who were the first autours that did raise them vp to the precise number of seuen, no more, nor fewer; for you …nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoeuer before a thousand yeares after Christ: but the Schoolemen them selues hauehave shewed that the seuen are not all sacraments, if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly. For neither can mariage so be of the number, as pDurand. de S. P…rtian. in 4. Sent. distinct. 26. quaest. 3.Durand proueth well: neither confirmation (the chrisme of oyle and balme) as qIn 4. Sentent. dist. 7. art. …. quaest. 2.Bonauenture teacheth. And, to be short, their captaine rSumm. Theologic. part. 4. quaest. 5. membr. …. art 2. & membr. 3. art. 2.Alexander of Ales doth auouch expressely, that there are 1Sola duo principalia.onelyonly two principal sacraments, 2A Domino in…ituta per se ipsum.which Christ himselfe did institute: so that (by his confession) as we speake of sacraments, there are two only. But my meaning was not to blame you for seuen. I spake of all your ceremonies, which are (I may say boldly) seuentie times seuen. Which whether that they be so few, and so cléere in comparison of the Iewish, as I hauehave declared and you confesse that Christian ceremonies should be: let the learned iudge by comparing of your Church-bookes, chiefly the sSacrarum ceremoniarum Romanae ecclesiae libri tres.Ceremoniall, tPontificale Romanum in tres distinctum partes.Pontificall, and uMissale Romanum, in rubricis Missalis, ritibus celebrā di Missam, & defectibus circa Missam occurrent…bus.Missall, with xExodus, Leuiticus, and Numbers.the bookes of Moses. Let the vnlearned gesse by the store and straungenesse of sacrificing vestiments: whereof yExod. 28.40.their common Priests had thrée, yours hauehave sixe; their high Priest had eight, your Bishops hauehave fiftéene at least, and some sixtéene, beside zInnocent. Mysterior. Missae. lib. 1. cap. 53. & l. 2. c. 7.the Popes prerogatiue-robes. And so, to leaue this matter to their consideration: your owne confession, yeldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachie. For if the spiritual worshipping of God, wherewith the Iewes did serue him, had ceremonies in number more, in signification darker, then it hath amongst the Gentiles: this kinde of seruing him with fewer ceremonies & cléerer is proper to the Gentils, & might succeede that which was amongst the Iewes. Wherefore D. Allens third, & fourth reasons, whereby he would proue that the offering spokē of in Malachie the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Masse, and not spirituall sacrifices, can take no holde against vsus. No more then ours could take against you of the contrarie, if we should conclude that it must betoken a spirituall worship not outward offeringes on an altar, because outward offeringes are common to the Iewes with vsus, and this is proper to the Gentiles: and this should succéede the Iewish worship of God, and come in steede of it, which no outward offeringes and sacrifices can doo, sith they are coopled alwayes to Gods spirituall worship. Would you allow these reasons?

Hart.

They are not like to D. Allens. But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt. For, (in the iudgement chiefly of heretikes,) 1Nostra opera sunt inquinata, vtcunque speciosa vide antur.our workes are defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: but that 2Prophetica oblatio per se munda est.Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe, and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted any way by vsus or by the worst Priests. For here in our testament, they can not choose all the best to them selues, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble, the lame, and the sicke, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it can not be changed; so cleane, that no worke of ours can distaine it.

Rainoldes.

And thinke you M. Hart, that the workes of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of, because they are defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull? Thinke you thus in déede? Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion (which God graunt you doo) with heretikes, as you terme vsus. For, if our workes be defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull, chiefly as heretikes iudge: then are men iustified by faith, not by workes. If our workes bee defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: then fulfill we not the law of God perfitly, much lesse super-erogate. If our works be defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: then are they meritorious of euerlasting death, but euerlasting life it is impossible they should merit.

Hart.

Nay, I meant not so. For though they be defiled, as they are of our selues: yet as they are of Christ, whose grace worketh in vsus, they are pure and perfit.

Rainoldes.

Then, as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, so they may be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of. For they are pure and perfit so, and therefore cleane by your owne opinion.

Hart.

But the Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe. Our workes are not cleane of them selues, but of Christ: and therefore can not be that offering.

Rainoldes.

Now may you féele the falshood of D. Allens dealing. For himselfe addeth those words [*Per se. of it selfe,] to make his reason serue: the Prophet saith no more but that aMal. 1.11.the offering is cleane. Wherefore sith our workes are cleane and vndefiled; chiefly as Papistes iudge: our workes might be meant by the Propheticall offering, howsoeuer they be vnperfit and impure of them selues.

Hart.

What? And doo you thinke, M. Rainoldes, that our workes, though vncleane of them selues, yet as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, are cleane and vndefiled? And see you not then, that of the other side you consent in the chiefest point of Catholike faith with Papists, as you terme vsus? For if you thinke in deede that our workes bee cleane, as they are wrought by grace: then must you néedes thinke that we may so fulfil the law, and merit life, and be iustified by workes, not by faith onelyonly.

Rainoldes.

I meant not so, M. Hart. But according to the prouerbe, that for a hard knot a hard wedge must be sought, I thought good to cleaue a Popish dreame in sunder with a Popish fansy. For otherwise, I know, that, although our workes be wrought by Christes grace: yet is mans nature and flesh in vsus who worke them, and therefore doo they cary a staine of vncleannes. It was of grace, that the children of Israel did consecrate their holy thinges and giftes to God. Yet that worke of theirs was not frée from spot: in so much that bExod. 2…. ver. 36.Aaron must beare on his forhead a plate of pure gold, wherein was ingrauen, Holines of the Lord, (a monument of Christ) cver. 38.that hee might take away the iniquitie of 1foreignthe holy thinges which they consecrated, of all the giftes of their holy thinges; and he should beare it alwayes to make them acceptable before the Lord. It is of grace, that the Saintes of God doo pray to him. Yet, dReu. 8.3.the other Angel, that stoode before the altar with a golden censer, had much odours giuen him 2foreign.that hee might put them into the prayers of all the Saintes vponupon the golden altar which is before the throne, and the smoke of the odours put into the prayers went vp before God out of the Angels hand. Which is a token that the prayers of Saintes hauehave their infirmitie: and yeelde no sweete smelling fauour vntounto God, without fauour in Christ. To be short, in all the gratious and good workes of men, ePhil. 2.13.God doth worke in vsus both to will, and to doo. But fRom. 8. ver. 21.euill is so present with vsus, that gver. 18.the good which we would doo, we can not: wee would, through Gods grace; we can not, through our frailtie. Yea, when we doo good, it is a will rather of dooing, then a dooing; we are so farre from perfit dooing it. For wee ought to hLuk. 20.…7.louelove God with all our heart, and with all our soule, and with all our strength, & with al our thought: and our neighbours, as our selues. But as long as iGal. 5.17.the flesh doth lust against the spirit, and kRom. 7. ver, 23.a law in our members doth rebell against the law of our minde; which is as long as we are in lver. 24.this body of death: we louelove him not with all our heart, soule, strength, and thought, but with part; and therefore in lesser measure, then we ought. Now, whatsoeuer is lesse, then it should be, is fautie: for it transgresseth mDeut. 4.…. & 12.…2.his commandement. Wherefore sith our workes should bee doon with perfit louelove of God and men, and that perfit louelove we hauehave not in this life: it foloweth that our workes in this life are fautie; yea, though they … wrought by the grace of Christ. Not as though his grace had any blemish, (God forbidde;) but because our selues, in whom it worketh, are corrupt: as water, though it flow from a fountaine most cléere, yet, if it doo runne through a muddy chanell, it becommeth muddy. So nether fulfill we the law in any worke, much lesse in all our workes, which they must doo, who will fulfill it; for nIam. ….10.he that offendeth in one, is guiltie of all: nether can we merit ought at Gods hands, much lesse eternall life; for oLuk. 17. ver. 9.he oweth vsus no thankes pver. 10.though we did all thinges which are commaunded vsus, because we ought to do them; and what is our desert then, who doo not all things? nether may wee possibly be iustified by workes before the iudgement seat of God; for qGal. 3.10.cursed is eueryevery man that continueth not in all things, which are written in the booke of the law, to doo them, and rIam. ….2.we all offend in many things.

Hart.

But if all our workes be muddy, as you say, and stained with vncleannesse: then is it much surer that the cleane offering, which the Prophet speaketh off, cannot betoken them. For the Lord reproueth the Iewish Priests there for sMal. 1.7.offering vncleane bread, and sacrificing the blinde, the lame, and the sicke. Wherefore sith of the contrarie he saith that the offering made among the Gentiles shall be a cleane offering: it foloweth that he meant not the spirituall sacrifices, that is, the workes of Christians; and what then, but the outward sacrifice of the Masse?

Rainoldes.

In déede if cleane things stained with vncleannesse were the verie same that vncleane things: you might iustly thinke that our spirituall sacrifices could not be allowed, no more then the carnall of those Iewish Priests. But the onelyonly sacrifice that is cleane perfitly, and hath no staine at all, is t1. Pet. 1.19. & 2.22.Christ, the vndefiled and vnspotted Lambe, uHeb. 9.25. & …3.12.offered on the crosse to sanctifie vsus with his blood. The sacrifices of the faithfull are cleane, but vnperfitly: and therefore néede his fauour, with pardon, (as I shewed,) that they may be x1. Pet. 2.5.acceptable to God through Iesus Christ. The sacrifices of the wicked, and hypocrites, are vncleane: as being either vnlawfull, such as were yLeu. 22.22.the blinde, and lame, and sicke among the Iewes; or offered vnlawfully, with zTit. 1.15.mindes and consciences defiled. So the sacrifices of those Iewish Priests, which God reproueth, were absolutely vncleane. Our spirituall sacrifices are vnperfitly cleane: cleane in comparison, and cleane by acceptation. Cleane in comparison & respect of men: as Habacuk complaining that aHab. 1.13.the wicked man deuouteth the righteous, saith, *foreignhim that is righteous in respect of him selfe; praysing not the righteous man as simply righteous, but in comparison of the wicked. Cleane by acceptation in the sight of God: who dealing as a louing father with his children, taketh in good part that which they doo willingly, though they doo it weakely. For as bLeu. 22.20.he accepted the sacrifices of the Iewes, when they offered the best and soundest that they had: so when cEsai. 66.20.the Gentiles were brought him for an offering, in like sort as the Israelites doo offer an offering in a cleane vessell, dRom. 15.16.the offering vp of them was acceptable to him. And thus might the spirituall sacrifices of Christians be meant by the cleane offering, whereof the Lord saith in the Prophet Malachie that it shall be offered to him in euerie place. According to the scripture, that instructeth vsus e1. Tim. 2.8.to pray in euerie place, lifting vp pure hands without wrath, and douting. For though nether our prayers be so intier and feruent, nor our hands so pure, and vnspotted of the world, nor our mindes so setled in louelove of our neighbour, nor our faith so constant, and stedfast towards God, but that they be stained with remnants of vncleannes, and hauehave lesse perfitnes then they should: yet are they all cleane in respect of fMal. 1. ver. 8. & 13.the sacrifices of those Iewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet reiecteth as gver. 7. & 12.vncleane; and so, where he hver. 10. & 13.refuseth to accept theirs, he iMal. 3.4.promiseth to accept ours, and sheweth that kRom. 12.1. Phil. 4.18. Heb. 1….16.they please him well. Wherefore the Masse findeth no footing in Malachie by D. Allens fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Masse in full possession of the cleane offering mentioned by Malachie: doth dispossesse it cleane and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our lTertullian. aduers. Iudaeos.spirituall sacrifices, of mContr. Marcion. l. 3. & 4.prayers, of nAugustin. contr. aduersar. leg. lib. 1. cap. 18. & contr. lit. Pe…ilian. lib. 2. cap. 86.thankes giuing, of oHieron. in Zachar. cap. 8.holinesse, of pEuseb. demonstrat. Euang. lib. 1.godly works, of qTertullian. aduers. Iudaeos.repentant heartes, of rEuseb. demonstrat. Euang. lib. 1.clensed mindes, and bodies sanctified, of sIrenae. lib. 4. cap. 32.33. & 34. Iustin. Mart. in Tryphon.the giftes offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of tTheodoret. in Malach. cap. 1. Cyrill. de adorat. in spirit. & verit.the whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they meane the sacrifice of the Masse by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spirituall sacrifice, as he …aith they doo, and that they call it so because 1Vic…ma hic existens. Victima is a liue thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applyeth to the sacrifice of the Masse, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de …charist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver… mactatur, ac immolatur.the victime, that is here, hath not a grosse, carnall, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victimes of the Iewes: it is grosse, and carnall. For the victime, (as you terme it) which they meane, and speake of, is either uEuseb. demonstrat. Euang. lib. 1.our selues, purified by faith; o… xIren. lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertullian. contra Maccion. lib. 4.our fruites, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed vntounto God his Father, which is your Massing-uictime, pure of it selfe, and purifying others, as you fansie. Yea, sith it is granted by D. yIn that he saith of Austin, licet libro secundo contra literas Petiliani de sacrificio laudis exponat.Allens owne words, that Austin, expounding it of the sacrifice of praise, meaneth not the sacrifice of the Masse thereby: let zContr. liter. Petiliani lib. …. cap. …6.that place of Austin he weighed with the rest of aContr. aduersar. leg. lib. 1. cap. 18. & 20.his and bChrysost. contr. Iudaeos orat. 2. Hic…o…. in Malach. cap. 1, Cyprian. lib. 1. cap. 16. contr. Iudaeos, and the rest alleaged.other Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachie toucheth not the Masse in their iudgement, by D. Allens owne graunt. The sixe reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as 2Argumenta valida & plané bona.strong, and very good, for the proofe thereof, proue it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then doo his bare wordes out of the Apostles in the new. In déede there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps him selfe hath espied, since hee wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse. For in his Apologie of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proofe of it, that he could, for the defense of Masse-priests, and the Masse-priests Nourseries,) cThe Apologie of the English Seminaries chapt. 6.he citeth not the scriptures, but the Fathers onelyonly. Which, vnlesse hée thought that the scriptures faile him, I sée not why hee should. Chiefly, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of Masse-priests, & the Masse he séeketh specially to winne by his Apologie, doo giuegive greater credit to fiue words of God then to ten thousand words of men.

Hart.

Nay, you are deceued much in D. Allen, if you think his iudgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apologie he citeth the Fathers onelyonly, not the scriptures, because you hauehave colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were Masse-priestes themselues, and said Masse.

Rainoldes.

What one of them, M. Hart? If you speake indeede to the point of the Masse, and daly not, as D. Allen: who maketh Masse-priestes of the Apostles, because they did consecrate the body and bloud of Christ, and offer it. For if to consecrate and offer, as d1. Cor. 10.16. & 11.24.they did, be to say Masse: then wee say Masse in our Communion, and our Ministers are Masse-priests Which (I thinke) you meane not.

Hart.

I meane that all the Fathers said Masse, as we doo; and were, as we be, Masse-priests. Which he meaneth also, and proueth by the most of them. For so was S. Ambrose, eLib 5. epist. 33testifying of him selfe that he offred sacrifice, and said Masse, euen in that plaine terme.

Rainoldes.

In that plaine terme? Why? S. Ambose spake not English, I trust.

Hart.

No. But he saith in Latin, Missam facere.

Rainoldes.

That is not to say Masse, but to doo masse, or rather to dimisse. *Paulinam coniunxit sibi breuique missam fecit.Missam fecit, in fIn Caligula cap. 25.Suetonius, would proue the Masse as wel as that. Which I dare not say that perhaps him selfe espied since he wrote it, least againe you tell me that I am much deceiued in him. But in gConcertat. eccles. Cathol. in Angl. aduer. Caluinop. & Purit.his Apologie turned into Latin, S. Ambroses missam facere is changed into missam dixisse. And so the words are fitter to proue he said Masse.

Hart.

Dixisse, or facere: the matter standeth not in that, but in the word missa. From which sith the name of Masse dooth come in English: it foloweth that S. Ambrose did celebrate Masse, that is, say Masse, as wée terme it.

Rainoldes.

Must I tell you again, that idiot commeth from idiota? And wil you say that all the simple, idiotae, who heare Masse, are idiotes?

Hart.

That is a iest: you may not so put off my reason. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as hDe interpret.Aristotle sheweth. Wherefore sith the name of Masse is in S. Ambrose: how can you deny but that hee did celebrate the thing, that is, the Masse it selfe, as we doo, whom you call Masse-priests?

Rainoldes.

And thinke you in earnest that S. Paul did celebrate the communion of the body and blood of Christ, as we doo, who are called Ministers?

Hart.

As you doo? who saith so?

Rainoldes.

You: if your reason be of any value. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as Aristotle sheweth. Wherfore sith the name of communion is in S. iCor. 10.16▪Paul: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, euen the communion it selfe, as we doo, who are called Ministers?

Hart.

Yes. For though you keepe the name with S. Paul: yet you keepe not the thing. As kAct. 8.9. & 13.6.sorcerers are called magi, like lMat. 2.1.the Sages of the East: yet is their wisdome wicked, not like that of the Sages.

Rainoldes.

That is false M. Hart, as you referre it to our Communion. For as we keepe the name, so we kéepe the meaning of the name too: and therefore the thing it selfe with S. Paul. But turne it to your Masse: and it is very true. For in S. Ambroses time the Christian people, hauing publike prayers in many Churches dayly, mAmbr. de sacram l. 4. c. 6. & l. 5. c. 4. Hieron. ep…st. ad Lucin. & apolog. ad Pammach. pro libris contr. Iouinianum.did therewithall dayly receiue the holy sacrament of Christes body, and bloud. Now, because sundry were at other partes of diuine seruice, for whom it was not lawful to receiue the sacrament, as 1Ca…echumeni. In Liturg. Ba…il. & Chryso…t.nouices in the faith who were not yet baptized, and 2Abstenti. Cyprian. de Oration. Domin.such as Church discipline remoued from the communion: therefore they were wont (after prayers made, and scriptures read, and taught,) nConcil. Carthag. 4. c…n. 84. vsque ad missam catechumenorum. August. serm. de temp. 237. Ecce post sermonem fit missa catechumenis▪ manebunt fideles.to dimisse the rest who might not communicate, the faithful onelyonly staying to receue together. And this dimission of them was noted by the word oIsidor. orig. lib. 6. cap. 18.missa, *As the word, remissa, is vsed for remissio. Tertullian. contr. Marcion. lib. 4. Cyprian. de bono patient. Augustin. de baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 3. cap. 18.vsed for missio, that is a sending away, or licensing to depart. Whence it came to passe that the very name of missa was geuen to that part of the seruice: and they were said missam facere, who celebrated the communion as S. Ambrose did. Wherefore though your sacrifice keepeth the name of Masse, that S. Ambrose vsed: yet doth it not keepe the thing meant thereby. For nether send you them away, who receiue not: and many a Masse is said that hath no communicants.

Hart.

But we wish (as pSess. 22. cap. 6.the Councell of Trent hath declared) that 1Fideles adstantes.the faithful, who stand by at Masse, would communicate. Wherefore if they doe not: it is through their owne default, and not through ours.

Rainoldes.

But it is your faute that you send not them away from the communion who communicate not. And herein your Councell doth vary from S. Ambrose, and other ancient Fathers, that it alloweth non-communicants to be standers by. For in the primitiue Church, yea, in S. Gregories time, (who for qRegistr. l. 2. ep. 9. & 93. Ad. 3. interrogat. August.naming Masse too is made a Masse-priest by your Doctor,) rGregor. Dialogor. lib. 2. cap. 2….the Deacon was accustomed to bid them 2Si quis non communicat, det locum, &, Non communican…es ab ecclesia exibant.depart, who did not communicate. Wherefore séeing that they meant the Communion by the name of Masse, and termed it so, because they sent away the non-communicants from it: you, who doo not so, may see how fond a reason D. Allen maketh for your Masse, and Masse-priestes, when he sheweth Ambrose, Gregorie, and sWhen Leo the great (ep …1. cap. 2. ) tooke order for laying …ao M…sses the… one, in a day, in one Churche: were they not Masse priests, that said those Ma…sse… sait… Allen in the margent of his Apolog… in English. The last of which words are thus in his Latin. Num sorté erant sacerdotes Missificante… that is to say, were they Masse priests ▪ An errour of the Latin, but speaking truer then the English, and very happily gainesaying it. For the Masses, spoken of by Leo, were communions celebrated by Ministers: at whose hands the people receiued the sacrament both of the body and blood of Christ ▪ which they be not at the hands of Masse-priests. Leo serm. 4. de quadragesima.Leo to hauehave vsed that name. Then which there can be nothing in deede more against him. For if the name open the nature of the thing as Aristotle sheweth: then is not your Masse, the masse of the Fathers, because it is not missa, that is, a dimissing, and sending away of them who receiue not.

Harte.

Nay, it is not onelyonly the name of the Masse, whereon he relieth, but the thing it selfe. For who knoweth not (saith he) that S. tGreg. lib. 2. ep. 9. & 93. lib. 7. ep. 63. ind. 2. lib. 11. ep. 56. Ad 3. interrog. August.Gregory the great was a Masse-priest, who hath the very word, the maner, and the partes thereof so expresly in his Epistles: who uBed. histor. lib. 1. cap. 29.sent all holy furniture and ornamentes for the same to our Blessed Apostle.

Rainoldes.

What? to S. Paul, xRom. 11.13.the Apostle of the Gentiles?

Hart.

I meane, to S. Austin the Apostle of the Englishmen.

Rainoldes.

I know no such Apostle: if you meane of that sort▪ of which yEph. 4.11. 1. Cor. 9.1. Gal. 1.1.Christ gaue Apostles; as the maiestie of the words [our Blessed Apostle] should import. But the ornaments, and furniture which S. Gregorie sent to Austin the Moonke, were not Massing-vestiments: no more then the vessels and clothes (that you mentioned before out of Optatus, and other ancient Fathers,) which serued for the Communion. As for the maner and partes of the Masse, which he hath (you say) in his Epistles so expresly: all that which he hath▪ is, zLib. 7. i… dict. 2. epist. 63.that there was said, 1Halleluia.praise ye the Lord; and, the clergie saying, 2Kyrie eleeson.Lord hauehave mercy vponupon vsus, the people answered them with the same wordes; and 3Christe eleeson.Christ hauehave mercy vponupon vsus was saide in like sort; and 4Orationem Dominicam post … lib. 11. ep. 56.the Lordes prayer, with the prayer (called the Canon,) was saide ouer the offering; and Simia quám similis turpissima …esti… nobis?after consecration the Communion was ministred. Now compare the maner and partes of your Masse with this of S. Gregorie: and they are as like it, as is an * ape vntounto a man. For in outward gestures, and shape of face & body, that is, in shew of actions, and forme of wordes & prayers, yours resemble it. But the soule, & reason as it were of it, which is, that the people did pray with the Pastour, nor onelyonly pray together, but communicate too: that your Masse hath not.

Hart.

They pray, and communicate both in affection, though they receyue not alwayes the communion bodily, nor vnderstand the prayers.

Rainoldes.

But, to communicate, is to bMatt. 26. ver. 26.eate, and cver. 27. 1. Cor. 11.2….drinke; which the people did in S. Gregories time: and they vnderstoode the prayers which were made, that they might d1. Cor. 14.16.say Amen thereto. Now the Priest hath swalowed vp their right, in the one; and the Clerke, in the other.

Hart.

But the Canon of the Masse, which is the chiefest part, we hauehave in like sorte as S. Gregorie had. And therein, eGegor. in libro Sacramentor.the worship of Saintes, and prayers for the dead: where of there is no shadow at all in your Communion, neither can you abide them. The greater wrong you doo both to him, and vsus, to make as though you folowed that which he practised; and to say, that our Masse is no lyker his, then is an ape vntounto a man.

Rainoldes.

We folow him in that, wherein he folowed Christ, f1. Cor. 11.1.and the folowers of Christ. gGregor. lib. 7. ind. 2. ep. 63.Himselfe beareth witnesse that 5Mos Apostolorum fuit, vt ad ipsam solummodo orationē Dominicam oblationis hostiam consecrarent.the Apostles neither vsed nor 6Precem quam Scholasticus cō. posuerat.made that Canon, but I know not what Scholer. Wherefore, though a Scholer presenteth 7Quorum meritis precibusque concedas.the merits and prayers of the Saintes before the throne of God, desiring helpe for their sakes; and prayeth for the faithful, who do rest in Christ, that they may hauehave 8Locum refrigeri…, lucis, & pacis.a place of cooling, peace, and light: yet because our hMatt. 23.10.Maister teacheth that iMatt. 3.15. Ioh. 8.46. & 19.30.himselfe alone wrought all righteousnesse, kHeb. 4.16. & 7.25. & 9.12.that we might finde fauour through his desert and intercession; and sheweth that lReu. 14.13.the dead who dye in him, are blessed, and rest from their labours, mCol. 1.12.in light, nEsai. 57.2.peace, and oLuk. 16.1….comfort; we folow not S. Gregories Canon in those pointes, but answere him with Christ, pMatt. 19.8from the beginning it was not so. And you, who thinke your Masse better then an ape in respect of his, because it resembleth his in the Canon, the chiefest part of it: may know that it resembleth his therein no better then doth an ape a man, when he sweareth by the crosse of his ten bones. For the Canon also, beside that y^e people did heare, & vnderstand it, recordeth 9Quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum filij …ui corpus & sanguinē sumpserimus.their receyuing of the body & blood: qAmalat. For…unat. de e…clesiast. offic. praefat. al…. Walafrid. Strabo de rebus …ccles. cap. 22. Microlog. de eccles. obseruat. c. 19.as doo the other praiers too after the communion. Which being as it were the soule and reason of it: your Masse, which hath it not, is but an apish counterfeit of his, for all the Canon. Nay, it is in déede so much the more apish; because it hath his wordes, and not the meaning of them.

Hart.

You grate on the Communion still, as if the Canon and all S. Gregories Masse did aime at that. Which is not so. For the principall point thereof is the sacrifice, euen the soueraine sacrifice, that is, our Sauiour Christ offered to God his father. And sith this is that which the Canon speaketh of, and S. Gregorie offered, and the Masse importeth with vsus, whom you call Masse-priests: it foloweth that S. Gregorie celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse, as we doo; and therefore was a Masse-priest, not a Minister of the Communion.

Rainoldes.

Then the men & women of Rome were Masse-priestes too in S. Gregories time, and celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse, as you doo. For the sacrifice which he offered, and the Canon speaketh of, is 1Offeruntur a populo o… lationes & vinum: e quibus in altari pon unt…r vt sacrent…r. Greg. in lib. sacrament. Of the which it is said in the Canon of the Masse, haec dona, haec munera, haec sacrificia illibata.the bread and wine, offered by the men and women for the Communion; and 2Sacrificium laudis. Whereof the Canon saith, memento Domine omnium circum adstantium qui tibi offerunt hoc sacrificium laudis pro se suisque omnibus.the sacrifice of prayse, which they did offer all to God.

Hart.

Nay, it is the very body and blood of Christ.

Rainoldes.

The wordes of the Canon are plaine to the contrarie. For it desireth God 3Quam oblationem tu Deus benedictam acceptabilemque facere digneris, vt nobis corpus & sanguis …iat Iesu Christi.to accept and blesse their offering, that it may be made the body and blood of Christ to th…m. It was not the body, and blood of Christ therefore, but very bread and wine, which the faithfull people offered to be …nctified to the vse of the Communion.

Hart.

It was bread and wine before consecration: as it is declared by those wordes of the Canon. But after consecration the Canon saith of it, Hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam, hostiam immaculatam, that is, the pure, holy, and vndefiled host.

Rainoldes.

But vponupon those wordes it foloweth in the Canon: 4Panem san, ctum vitae aeternae, & calicem salutis perp… tuae.the holy bread of eternall life, and the cuppe of saluation. Wherefore the bread, and the cuppe, that is, the wine, though holy now, and sanctified to be the bread of life, and cup of saluation, that is, the body and blood of Christ in a mystery, but the bread, and wine are the pure, holy and vndefiled sacrifice, or host (as you terme it,) not onelyonly before but after consecration too.

Hart.

Nay, the reall body, and blood of Christ are meant by the bread, and the cuppe, in a figuratiue spéech: and so Christ himselfe, is the pure, holy, and vndefiled host.

Rainoldes.

Where a figuratiue speech is vsed in rLuke. 22. ver. 19. & 20.scripture: you will none of it. Here, where your Canon vseth none, you fansy it. For it foloweth straight touching that bread, and that cuppe: 5Super qe… …opitio ac se…eno vultu respicere digne…: & accepta habere, sicuti accepta habere dignatus es mu…era pueri tui iusti Abel.vponupon the which thinges vouchsafe o Lord to looke downe with a mercifull & cheerefull countenance, and to accept them as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the offerings of thy righteous seruant Abel. So that, if Christ him selfe were meant really by the bread, and the cuppe, in a figuratiue spéech: then the Priest desireth God to looke on Christ with a mercifull and cheerefull countenance, and to accept of him at the Priests request, as he did accept sHeb. 11.4.the giftes, which Abel offered. There hath beene heretofore a saying amongst you, (which I hope you like not,) that tSacerdos est creator creatoris sui.a Priest is the creator of his creator. But by this meanes the Priest is lifted higher to bee the mediator of his mediator. And so will you vouch in earnest of Masse-priests, that, which uIn Apologe….Tertullian did iest at in the Heathens: *Homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit.man must be merciful vntounto God now; vnlesse it please the Priest, Christ shall not finde fauour in his fathers sight.

Hart.

The prayer of the Priest that God will looke vponupon his offrings, and accept them, hath a very good meaning, whereof I doo not dout. But the former wordes, touching the hoste, must néedes betoken Christ. For how can the name of a pure, holy, and vndefiled hoste be geuen to the bread, and wine?

Rainoldes.

How are they called 6Haec dona, haec munera, haec sacrificia illibata.pure, or vndefiled giftes, offeringes, and sacrifices in the Canon it selfe before consecration?

Hart.

They may be called pure by acceptation there, as your selfe expounded. Which the Canon seemeth to imports also, in that it prayeth God 7Vti accepta habeas, & bene…icas.to accept them and blesse them.

Rainoldes.

Euen so they may be called here a pure, holy, and vndefiled sacrifice. For the Canon also likewise prayeth God to accept them, in expresse termes; and, in effect, 8Iube haec por…erri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime altare tuum, v… quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum filij tui corpus & sanguinem sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti & gratia replea…r.to blesse them. Whereof it hath a farther and plainer proofe too, in that it saith they offer to God that pure sacrifice, the bread of life, and cup of saluation, 9De tuis donis ac datis.of his giftes. For in saying that they offer it of the giftes of God, it sheweth that the very bread and wine is meant. Which the people being vsed then to offer, (as now we offer mony:) the rest there of was geuen after to the poore; a part was taken first for the vse of the communicants, that they might be partakers of the bread of life and cuppe of saluation, that is, the holy sacrament of the body and blood of Christ.

Hart.

I know that the name of sacrifice is giuen to the peoples offerings, and other things often. But I am perswaded that, by the pure, holy, and vndefiled sacrifice, S. Gregorie meant Christ: and so did offer him vp to God his Father, in the Masse, as we doo. Which I thinke the rather, because they were Masse-priests (as our Apologie sheweth,) who liued in the function of Priesthood before him. For the holy xCap. 14.Councell of Nice knew none but such offerers, or sacrificing, that is, Massing-priests. S. yEpist. 5.Cyprian acknowledgeth the Priests of his time, to hauehave offered, or sacrificed, yea euen in prisons. Hee was a Masse-priest, that S. zDe ciuit. Dei l. 22. c. 8.Austin sent to doo sacrifice in a house infested with euil spirits. They were Masse-priests of whom aIn vit. Constantin. l. 4 c. 45.Eusebius writeth, that they pacified the diuine maiestie with vnbloody sacrifices and mysticall consecrations. The dignitie of Priesthood set forth in the worke of the same title by S. bChrysost. de sacerdotio.Chrysostome, is specially commended there for the power of dooing the vnbloody sacrifice vponupon the altar. To be short, he, and all the other Fathers both Gréeke and Latin were Masse-priests, none being euer made but for that purpose principally: S. cin 1. Tim. 4.Ambrose testifying that to take the order of Priesthood, which he calleth with the Apostle, Imposition of hands, is to receiue authoritie to offer sacrifice to God in our Lordes steede.

Rainoldes.

These testimonies, M. Hart, of Greeke, and Latin Fathers, with the rest quoted by your Apologie-writer either at dIn his treat…se of the sacrifice of the masse, (cap. 14.) out of his lectures read at Doway.Doway, or at eIn his Apologie: and the Annotations on the Rhemish Testament, Heb. 10.11.Rhemes: doo some of them mention offering, and not sacrificing; some speake of sacrificing, but not the sacrificing of Christ. Betweene the which pointes what difference there is: for the one, fAlan. d… eucharist. sacrif. cap. 16.himselfe is a sufficient witnesse, in that he declareth that sundry things are offered which are not sacrificed; for the other, they, who shew that the faithfull did offer sundry sacrifices, as namely, of gCyprian. de opere & eleem.almes, of hAugust. contr. aduersa…. leg. l. 1. c. 18. & 20.praise, of iDe ciuitat. Dei lib. 10. cap. 6. & l. 22. c. …them selues, euen at the celebration of the Lords supper. But admit they meant by offering, and sacrificing, the sacrificing of Christ, as some of them did: yet nether was their sacrificing, that, which your Massing is; nor they who sacrificed, Masse-priests. For you will hauehave kConcil. Trid. Sess. 22. in praefat. & Can. 1.the sacrifice offered in the Masse to be a 1Verum & singulare sacrificium.very, soueraine, 2Verum & pro prium sac…ificium.true, and proper sacrifice: wherby you meane lAlan. de Euchar. sacrif. c. 10.11. & 12.that Christ is killed there indeede, and sacrificed to God. But the Fathers named their offering, a sacrifice, not properly, but by a figure: meaning the death of Christ (our onelyonly very, soueraigne, true, and proper sacrifice,) to be represented there, in a mysterie, not exequuted in deede. For as in the Scripture sacraments are noted by the names of thinges whereof they are sacraments, that men may lift their eyes from the outward signes to the things signified: so because we are willed m1. Cor. 11. ver. 2…. & 25.to celebrate the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ in his remembrance, and nver. 26.to shew his death; that shewing of his death, and remembring of his sacrifice, is called by the Fathers his sacrifice, and death. So doth oEpist. 63. ad Caecilium.Cyprian treate of the offering of Christ. For teaching that 1Passionis eius mentionem in sacrificijs omnibus facimus.we mention his death in all sacrifices, he geueth this as a reason of it, 2Passio est enim Domini sacrificium quod offerimus.for the death of Christ is the sacrifice which we offer. So doth Chrysostome open his meaning of the sacrifice. For he affirmeth it to be pHomil. 83. in Matthaeum.a signe of Christes death: and hauing said that qHomil. 17. in epist. ad Hebr.we offer the very sacrifice that Christ did, he correcteth his spéech thus, 3foreign.or rather we worke a remembrance of that sacrifice. So the same rIn epist. ad Heb. cap. 10.Ambrose who speaketh of sacrificing to God in Christes steede, dooth expound it too, 4Magis autem recordationem sacrificij operamur.euen with Chrysostomes words. So sEpist. 23. ad Bonifacium.Austin saith that Christ, although he were sacrificed but once in himselfe, 5Omni die populis immolatur in sacramento.is sacrificed eueryevery day to Christian folke in a sacrament or mysterie: nether is he falsly said to be sacrificed. For sacraments hauehave 6Quandam similitudinem.a certaine resemblance of those things whereof they are sacraments; and for that resemblance they take the names commonly of the things themselues: as the sacrament of the body of Christ is Christs body 7Secundum quendam modum.after a certaine sort, and the sacrament of the blood of Christ is Christs blood. Finally, Eusebius (who may serue also to declare the iudgement of the Councell of Nice, whereof he was a part) doth by the very name of vnblooddy sacrifices witnesse his agréement therein with the rest. For he calleth our remembrances and representations of the death of Christ in celebrating the sacrament of his body and blood, though sacrifices, for the lykenes; yet vnbloody, for the difference: to shew that Christ is not sacrificed in them truly, and properly, (for then must his blood be shed, as it was, when he suffered death,) but onelyonly by the way of a sacrament, & mystery, wherein the true sacrifice is set foorth before vsus, and remembred by vsus. And this he maketh plainer tDemonstrat. Euang. lib. 1.other where by saying, that Christ hauing offered him selfe for a soueraine sacrifice vntounto his …ather, ordeined that we should 8foreignoffer a remembrance thereof vntounto God in steed of a sacrifice. Which remembrance we celebrate 9foreign.by the signes of his body and blood, vponupon his table: and, pleasing God well, we offer vnbloody sacrifices, and reasonable, and acceptable to him.

Hart.

Nay, Eusebius calleth our sacrifices, vnbloody, in respect of the maner, and not of the thing. For they are true sacrifices of Christ, and therefore bloody: but Christ who was offered vponupon the crosse blooddily, is offered in the Masse vnblooddily.

Rainoldes.

That is your uConcil. Trid…t. Sess. 22. cap. 2.Trent-doctrine: but it will not cleaue with the wordes of Eusebius. For he calleth them 1foreign. De vit. Constantin. lib. 4. cap. 45. foreign. Demonstrat. Euang. lib. 1.vnblooddy sacrifices: not bloody sacrifices offered vnblooddily, but vnbloody sacrifices. And adding that we celebrate the remembrance therein of the sacrifice of Christ by the signes of his body, and blood: he sheweth that they are not in déede bloody sacrifices, but mysteries of the bloody.

Hart.

Nay, the blood of Christ, the very sacrificall blood (as xIn the Rhemish Annot. Heb. 9.20.we terme it) which Christ did shed vponupon the crosse, is in the blessed chalice of the altar at the sacrifice of the Masse. For yDe sacerdotio lib. 3.Chrysostome (in that notable worke of the Priesthood) saith that Christ is seene there by all the faithfull, and mentioneth his blood too.

Rainoldes.

Yea, and (that is more) he saith that Christ is held there in all their handes, and all are *foreign, made redde like crimse… or sc…rlet.made redde with that pretious blood. The Fathers delite much in such effectuall spéeches: which néede wiser readers, then many bee who light on them. But if your selfe know that the whole people which cometh to your Masse, is not made redde with the sacrificall blood: you may learne thereby that Chrysostome, speaking of blood in the sacrifice, doth consider of it as bloody in a mystery, but in déede vnbloody.

Hart.

Nay: it is called vnbloody by the Fathers, as D. zDe Euchar…t. …acis…. c…p. 1….Allen noteth, not because the blood in deed is not in it, but to distinguish it frō the same sacrifice of Christ vponupon the crosse, which was made and offered 2Non sine fu…o …ruore.not without blood shedde.

Rainoldes.

The blood is not shed then in this sacrifice. And therefore it is neither propiciatorie; for aHeb. 9.22.sinnes are not remitted without shedding of blood: nor the true and soueraine sacrifice of Christ; for 3Singulari & …olo vero sac…ificio pro nobis Christi sanguis eff…sus est. August. contr. aduersar. leg. l. 1. c. 18.that is the onelyonly true, and soueraine sacrifice, wherein his blood was shed for vsus.

Hart.

Yes: the blood is shedde in the sacrifice of the Masse, but it is shedde vnblooddily.

Rainoldes.

Blood, vnblooddily shedde? You speake monsters, M. Hart, vnlesse you meane by [vnblooddily] not truly, and in déede, but sacramentally. For then you say well, that his blood is shedde, when we shew his death, and remember the shedding of it. But as S. bCont. Faust. Manich. l. 20. cap. 21.Austin writeth, that the flesh and blood of the sacrifice of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance before he came, was performed 4Per ipsam verit…tem reddebatur.in truth and in deede when he suffered, is celebrated 5Pe… sacramentum memo…iae celebratur.by a sacrament of remembrance since he ascended: so, when the blood of Christ is shedde in this sort by the sacrament of remembrance, it is not shedde in deed, for that was doon at his death onelyonly. And this is the most that you can make of the Fathers, although it be graunted that they called their celebrating of the Lordes supper an vnbloody sacrifice in respect of the blooddy sacrifice of Christ which hee offered on the crosse. Much lesse make they for you, if they called it not so in respect of his sacrifice, but of the sacrifices of the Iewes. Which it is the more likely that they did, because they called their cCyril. lib. de t…cta fid. ad Reginas. Oecumen. in epist. ad Hebr. c. 13.prayers and their very dConcil. Ephesin. epist. ad Nestor. Liturg. Ba…il. & Chrysost.worship of God vnblooddy too: no doubt to distinguish it from the Iewish worship, which offered bloody sacrifices. For as S. eRom. 1….1.Paul, treating of our seruing of God, calleth it 6foreign.reasonable, because we do sacrifice our selues spiritually; not bruite beastes and senselesse thinges with carnall ceremonies, as the Iewes did▪ so fLiturg. Basil. & Chrysost.the Fathers called it 7foreign.reasonable, and vnblooddy, to the same effect. And gDemonstrat. Euang lib. 1.Eusebius namely saith that we offer 8foreign.vnblooddy and reasonable sacrifices to God as long as we liue, meaning all h1. Pet. 2.3.spirituall sacrifices thereby, which eueryevery Christian offereth as a Priest to God. Yea, euen in iDe vit. Constantin. l. 4. c. 45.that place which D. Allen chose as making most for his Apologie, the prayers, which 9foreign.the Ministers (for so Eusebius termeth them) did offer vntounto God, may well be vnderstoode by those sacrifices too. But if hee meant onelyonly their offerings of the remembrance of Christes death in the sacrament, as that which ensueth of mysticall consecrations may séeme to import: yet himselfe declareth by the word [vnblooddy] that he called them sacrifices, not properly, but by a figure; as meaning not that Christ is put to death there in deede, but in a mysterie. To be short, he, and all the other Fathers, both Gréeke, and Latin, are so fully and plainly of one mind in this point: that the kLib. 4. dist. 12.Master of the Sentences (in his abridgement of Diuinitie gathered out of them) proposing this question, 1Si, quod. gerit sacerdos, propriē dicatursacrisicium vel immolatio.whether that which the Priest doth exequute be called a sacrifice properly, resolueth that it is not. But that which is offered and consecrated by the Priest is called a sacrifice (saith he) and an offering, 2Quia memoria est & representatio ver… sacrificij & sanctae immolationis fact…m ara crucis.because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and the holy offering made on the altar of the crosse, as he prooueth by the Fathers. Wherefore sith the sacrifice offered in the Masse is 3Verum & proprium sacrificium.a true and proper sacrifice, as you define it; and that of the Fathers is not a true sacrifice, but called so improperly: it remayneth to be concluded that the Fathers nether said Masse, lConcil. Trident. S…ss. 22. can. 1.nor were Masse-priests. And so, to make an end with that which you began with, the cause is iust, and holy, why we call presbyteros, not Priests, but Elders. For sith the name of Priest hath relation to sacrifice, & men by the sacrifice vnderstand your Masse, and your Masse is a monster of abomination, prophaning the blood of Christ, condemned by the Scriptures, vnknowen to the Fathers, detestable in the sight of God and of the godly: the charge of the Lord, mLeu. 19.14.not to lay a stumbling block before the blind, might hauehave remoued *As the name of my Baal. H…s. 2.16.that name from Ministers of the gospel, yea, although they had bene ordeined to sacrifice, much more sith they are not, but as other Christians. The name of Elders therefore expressing that word whereby the Scripture calleth them, as it is confessed by nThe vulga… Latintrans…a…tion. 1. Pet. …. Seniore.your owne authentical, translating it so: we could not but allow it. Chiefly sith the very necessitie of opening our meaning vntounto others (which is the end of languages) required different words for the different thinges of presbyter, and sacerdos. For how will you translate that saying of S. oDe ciu. Dei l. 20. c. 10.Austin, that S. Iohns words [pReu. 20.6. they shalbe Priests of God, & of Christ] are meant of all Christians; non de solis episcopis, & presbyteris, qui propriè iam vocantur in ecclesia sacerdotes; that is, as we translate, not of Bishops and Elders only, which now are called peculiarly Priests in the Church. But how would you translate it?

Hart.

There is a defect in our English tounge, that we can not translate it so perspicuously as it is in Latin, because we hauehave but one word for presbyter, and sacerdos.

Rainoldes.

Then you should not play the dog in the manger, nether your selues mending the defectes of our tounge, nor suffering vsus to mend them. For if a man translate it as your qIn their Annot. Reu. 20.6▪Rhemists doo, not of Bishops and Priests only, which are So they translate the wor… propri… deceitfully: for aduantage of their errour, that Ministers of the gospel are properly called Priests. Whereas S. Austin meaneth that generally, by Scripture, all Christians hauehave that name: though peculiarly Bishop… & Priests, by the Church, in his time: both called so vnproperly, and by a figure: not as the Leuiticall Priests, and Christ, properly.properly now in the Church called Priests: how shal the English reader vnderstand his meaning which Priests be called Priests, and whether Bishops be Priests too? Nay, to come to that which must néedes enforce you to translate sacerdos otherwise, then presbyter: S. rContr. Iulian. Pelag. l. 1. c. 7. & l. 2. c. 10.Austin hauing brought (against Iulian, an heretike,) the testimonies of the Fathers, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Reticius, Olympius, Hilarie, Ambrose, Innocentius, Nazianzene, Basil, & Chrysostome, doth name them sacerdotes, that is (as you translate it) Priests: is it not?

Hart.

Yes: We hauehave no other English for sacerdos.

Rainoldes.

Where S. Austin addeth then touching Ierom, that nether he must be contemned because he was presbyter: what here shal presbyter be? Wil you make S. Austins spéech so vnsauory, as to tell the heretike, that he ought to reuerence Irenaeus, Cyprian, Ambrose, and the rest, because they were Priests; and not contemne Ierom because he was a Priest?

Hart.

Nay, I would translate here, presbyter, a Priest: but, for sacerdotes, I would say Bishops. For that is S. Austins meaning in these places where he doth name them sacerdotes.

Rainoldes.

So sGreg. Martin. in his Discouer. chap. 6.your translatour doth. But the word Bishop is our English of episcopus. And what if episcopus chaunce to come in too, with sacerdos, and presbyter? How will you expresse them? As where in De ordine celebrand. Concil. Canones a sanct. patribus constit. & ab Isidoro in vnum corpus collecti. Concil. Tom. 1.the Canons collected by Isidore touching the order of keeping Councels, he saith that sacerdotes first must enter in, and after them presbyteri: your Antonius Contius, in append. decretor. Gratiani, de ord celebr. Conc.Lawier noteth on it, Vide vt sacerdotes vocet episcopos veteri more, quem ignorantes plerique presbyteros sacerdotes appellari promiscuè stuliè opinantur. Wherein, if you translate sacerdotes, Bishops, and presbyteros, Priests: then your Lawier saith (which were a wise speech) that Isidore calleth Bishops Bishops, after the old maner, which many not knowing do folishly think that Priests are called Bishops indifferently.

Hart.

Such sentences cannot be well expressed in English▪ but the Latin words must be kept in them.

Rainoldes.

But it is behoofefull for our English men to hauehave them in English, that they may know your Latin abuses of Rome. For this is meant thereby, that the ancient writers are wont to note Bishops by the name of Priests: which many not knowing doo foolishly think that the name of Priests is vsed indifferently for the same that Elders. A lesson for your Rhemists, who make them all one, although not of foolishnes so much as of fraude: to the intent that 1Presbyteri.Elders, that is to say, Ministers of the new testament, may be thought 2Sacerdotes.Priests, that is to say, Ministers ordeined 3Sacrifica…e.to sacrifice, as your 4Sacrificium Missae.Masse-priests be. For colour and maintenance of the which errour, the countenance of proofe that you pretend out of the Fathers is the lesse by thus much, that xCyprian. ep. 55. Ambros. e… 33. Concil. Afrie. in …pist▪ ad Celestin. and the rest of the Fathers commonly. which the Emperours vsed in their lawes too: as Antonius Contius. (L. nec honore. C. de episcopis.) noteth with these words, Obserua sacerdotem semper in his legibus poni pro episcopo.they were accustomed to geue the name of Priests, not generally to Elders, but to Bishops onelyonly. Wherefore to auoide confusion of things, which the confusion of words might ingender, in that we are to treate off: I will (by your leaue) call presbyter an Elder, as our translations doo; that I may distinguish it from the name of Priest, both as it is vsed by you for a Masse-priest, and as it is vsed by the Fathers for a Bishop. So to come at length back againe to that which I was in hand with, of the second sort of the Bishops of Rome,The fifth Diuision. that, when they were growen to their fattest plight, they were but Archbishops of a Princely diocese, not vniuersall Popes and Patriarkes of the whole world: the Elders (as I said) ordeined by the Apostles in eueryevery Church, through eueryevery citie, chose one amongst themselues whom they called Bishop, to be the President of their companie, for the better handling and ordering of things in their assemblies and meetings, wherein they prouided by common counsell and consent for the guiding of the flock of Christ committed to them. Which point of care and wisdome the Bishops folowing also, knowing that yProu. …1.1….where counsels want the people falleth, but in the amplenes of counsellers there is health, had their meetings likewise for conference together when things of greater waight required more aduise: and they chose to be their President therein the Bishop of the chiefest citie in the prouince, whom they called the Metropolitan. For zNotit. prouinciar. Imperij Romani.a prouince, as they termed it, was the same with them, that a shire is with vsus: and the shire-towne as you would say of the prouince was called aL. obseruare. D. de officio Proconsulis. Dio in Adriano.metropolis, that is the mother-citie. In which, as the Iudges and Iustices with vsus doo heare at certaine times the causes of the whole shire: so the ruler of the prouince with them did minister iustice, and made his abode there ordinarily. Whereupon by reason that men for their busines made great concourse thither: the church was woont to furnish it (of godly policie) with the worthyest Bishop, endued with gifts aboue his brethren. And they reposed in him such affiance, that they did not onelyonly commit the bConcil. Antioch. can. 20. Chalced ca… 19Presidentship of their assemblies to him: but agréed also that cConcil. Nicen. can. 4. & 6.none through al the prouince should be made Bishop without his cōsent, dConcil. Antiochen. can. 9.nor any waightyer matter be doone by them without him. Now the Roman Empire was gouerned in such sort, that as the Queenes Maiestie appointeth Lieutenants ouer sundry greater parts of her dominion, a Lord Deputie of Ireland, and the Lord Presidents of Wales, and of the North: so the Emperour diuided his to sundry officers, 1Comes Orientis.the Earle of the East, 2Praefectus Augustalis ▪ or Aegypti.the Lord Presidents of Aegypt, 3Praefectus Praetorio Italiae.of Italie, and so foorth, whose circuites had many prouinces within them, and were called 4As dioecesis Aegyptiaca. L. omnia. C. De offic. praefect. Aug. So dioecesis Orientis, & the …, in Cod. Theod & Iustinian. passim.dioceses. Through occasion whereof the Bishops of those cities in which these Lieutenants of the Emperor were resiant, (*Wolfgang. Laz. comment. reip. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. the state ecclesiasticall folowing the ciuil,) did grow in power too. Nether were they onelyonly named Archbishops and Patriarkes of the diocese, that is, the chiefest Bishops and Fathers of that circuite which the Lieutenant ruled: but also they obteyned that the Metropolitans of the prouinces in their diocese should be likewise subiect and obedient to them, as Bishops were to Metropolitans. So the Archbishop and Patriarke of Antioche had eConcil. Constantinop. 1. can 2.prerogatiues geuen him through the diocese of the East, fConcil. Antioch. in exord.wherein were seuen prouinces. So gConcil. Chalced. action. 4.nothing could be doon in the diocese of Aegypt, (hTheodos. & Valentin. epist. ad Dioscor. in Concil. Chalced. Action. 1. which vnderunder the Archbishop had ten Metropolitans) without the consent of the Archbishop and Patriarke of Alexandria. So iConcil. Chalced. Act. 16.it was granted to the Archbishop and Patriarke of Constantinople, that the Metropolitanes of the dioceses of Pontus, Asia, and Thracia, (kAs appe… reth by Theodoret▪ Histor. eccles. l. 5. c. 2…. Though the booke entitled Notitia prouinciarum imperij Romani numbreth but six & twentie, ten in Pontus, ten in Asia, and six in Thracia. within the which there were eight and twenty prouinces) should be ordeined by him. Finally, so was it lConcil. Chalced. can. 9. & 17.decréed that if a Bishop had any matter of controuersie with the Metropolitan of his own prouince, 1foreign, as the Councel calleth him. But thereby is meant the Patriarke, as appeereth by Iustinians constitution, Nouel. 123. cap. 22.the Patriarke of the diocese should be iudge thereof: as also if any man did receiue iniurie of his own Bishop, or Metropolitan. Thus were the Roman Popes (as they are called now) first Bishops ouer Elders within their own citie; next, Metropolitans ouer Bishops within their own prouince; then Archbishops, and Patriarkes ouer Metropolitans within their own diocese. And this is the Princely diocese, which I meant, when I said that the Pope in the time of Pelagius was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese; but he was yet but an Archbishop: hee was not vniuersall Pope and Patriarke of the whole world. For although the Patriarke of Constantinople, being puffed vp because in his citie not the Emperours Lieutenants were resiant, as in the rest, but the Emperour himselfe, aspired to be therefore Soueraine of the rest, and as the Emperour counted himselfe mforeign. D. ad legē …hodiam deiactu.Lord of the world, so would he be called nforeign. Gregor. Regist▪ lib. 4. epist. 39.Patriarke of the world: yet the Roman Patriarkes oIn epist. ad episcopos qui conuenerant Constantinopoli. Dist. 9… c. Nullus.Pelagius, and pRegistr. lib. 4 ep. 32. & 34. & 36. & 38. lib. 7. indict. … ▪ epist. 30. Distinct. 99. c. Ecce.Gregorie, did withstand his pride,2Archiepiscopi & Patriarcha senioris Rom…, Constantinopol…os, Alexandriae, Theopolcos (that is▪ of Antioche,) & Ierosolymorum. Nouel. 123. cap. 3. and neither would themselues take so much vponupon them, nor agrée that any Patriarke should doo it. Wherefore when Pelagius ordeined that if any Metropolitan sent not to the see of Rome to shew his faith, and receiue the pall, he should be depriued: Pelagius must be thought to hauehave made that ordinance for all Metropolitans within his own diocese, not throughout the world. The testimony of qRegistr. lib. 4. ep. 34.Gregory which your selfe alleaged touching the Bishop of Salonae is a proofe thereof. For, that 3Episcopi m…i.my Bishops (saith he) should despise me, I impute it to my sinnes: and, if the causes of Bishops committed to me be dealt with thus, alas what shall I doo?

Hart.

Nay, although he say, Bishops committed to me, and, my Bishops: yet is that no proofe that onelyonly certaine Bishops were of his diocese. 4Episcoporum mihi commissorum.For he might signifie all Bishops by those wordes, as being all his subiects.

Rainoldes.

The Patriarkes of Antioche, and Alexandria will deny that; or rather Gregorie him …elfe. For rRegistr. lib. 4. epist. 36.him selfe exhorting them to withstand the pride of the Patriarke of Constantinople, who would be vniuersall Patriarke: stand ye strong (saith he) and keepe all 5Episcopos curae vestrae sub…ectos.the Bishops subiect to your charge from defiling them selues with consent to this pride. Where by it is manifest that onelyonly certaine Bishops were subiect to his charge: whom he termed his Bishops, and, Bishops committed to him. And this appéereth further by that which sIohan. Diac…. vit. Gregor. lib. 3. c. 1….Diaconus writeth in his life: that, when there were Bishoprikes voide in his diocese, 6Vacantes episcopos in suae dioeces…os episcopatus inuitab…t.he desired Bishops of an other diocese (who were destitute) to take them; as the Bishop of 7A citie of Asia, in the di… cese of the Patriarke of Constantinople.Smyrna to take a Bishoprike in Sicilia. Howbeit, if Gregorie and Pelagius both had meant generally of all Metropolitans through the whole world, that they should be allowed by the Popes consent: yet neither wou…d that proue the Popes of the second sort to hauehave auouched that soueraintie of power ouer Bishops which your last sort of Popes doth, and toucheth their supremacie most. For tLeo epist. 82. & 87. c. Metropolitano. c. Vota ciuium. dist 63. Gregor. Regist. lib. 1. epist. 56. & 58. & 78. lib. 2. ind. 11. epist. 22. & 29. & 30. & caet. passim.they of the second taught that all Bishops ought to bee chosen by the people and clergie: them selues requiring onelyonly the confirming of Metropolitans by their consent, if that be granted. Where uConcil. Lateran. sub. Leon. decim. Sess. 11. abrogat▪ pragmaticae sanctionis, & Concilij Basiliensis.these of the last doo claime to them selues the right not of confirming alone, but of choosing too, both Metropolitans and Bishops: and binde them by xForma iuramenti praestandi ab episcopo e…ecto. In Pontiti…icali Rom. part. 1.othe (for more assurance of their State) *Reseruationes, prouisiones, mandata Apostolica totis viribus obseruabo, & faciam ab alijs obserua…i.to obserue and cause to be obserued by others, the Papall reseruations, prouisions, and mandates, by which they worke this tyrannie.

Hart.

It is more requisite that the Popes in our time should reserue Bishoprikes to their owne bestowing, that they may prouide good Pastors for the Church, then it was of olde. And therefore lesse maruell if they choose them selues such as they know fit, and will hauehave the confirming of such as other choose: though their predecessours (when the dayes were better) did neither choose any, nor confirme all. But the Popes supremacie standeth not so much in making Church-officers, as in iudging Church-causes. And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last. For yEpist. 93. inter epist. Augustin.Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis, who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians, doth prayse them for referring the matter vntounto him: and I thinke (saith he) that 1Quotiesfid o… ratio ventilatur.as oft as a matter of faith is called in question, all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vntounto Peter, that is, the autour of their name and honour, as now your charitie hath doon.

Rainoldes.

Th…se wordes of Innocentius may proue (M. Hart) that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter, not a soueraintie of power: a preeminence of knowledge, 2Super anx…s rebus quae sit tenenda sententia.to resolue the Church-questions; not a soueraintie of power, to decide the Church-causes. For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith, that is, by the scriptures: and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power, but in knowledge. Which you may learne by zc. Decretale …. distinct. 20▪Gratian in the Canon law, saying, that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures, because they passe them in knowledge: the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes, because they passe them in power.

Hart.

That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vponupon y^e truth. For though the Church-causes, as Gratian speaketh of them, do concerne persons, the innocent to be acquitted, or offenders to be condemned: yet questions of faith (which you call Church-questions) are Church-causes too in a generall sense. As ac. Maiore…. de baptismo.one of the third sort of Popes saith, that greater causes of the Church, chiefly such as touch the articles of faith, are to be referred to the See of Peter. And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first. For, in bEpist. 91. inter epist. Augustin.his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion, he saith, that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man, but of God, that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of, they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome.

Rainoldes.

It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church: but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie. The causes touching persons, which Zosimus, Boniface, and Caelestine did deale for, when they would hauehave it lawfull for Bishops & Elders to appeale to Rome, are those which Popes must liue by. And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis, whom Innocentius wrote too, did know, and shew this difference, when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith, but cConcil. Carthag. Graec. can. …8. Concil Mileuit. can. 22.forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vntounto him by appeales. Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes, and the Church-questions, is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vponupon the truth, but a point of truth to cléere y^e mist of your sophistry. For yourdTorrensis confess. August. lib. 1. cap. 9. tit. … Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie. Whereas he claimeth iudgement, to resolue the douts; or (that is lesse,) autoritie, to approue the doctrine; not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church.

Hart.

Nay, his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage, that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off, it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded.

Rainoldes.

But if you doo racke that word [whatsoeuer] so farre beyond his drift: you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes, who claime eMaiores ecclesiae causas. c. Maiores. de baptismo.the greater causes of the Church onelyonly. Wherefore, as when S. f1. Cor. 6.12.Paul saith, all thinges are lawfull for me, he meaneth not all thing…s absolutely, and simply, but all indifferent thinges, according to the point which he treateth of: so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes, but to matters of faith called into question; which, the Popes being learned then and Catholike, gforeign, as S. Cyril saith in his epistle to C…lestin. Epist. …8.the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them, that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit & fréer passage against heretikes.

Hart.

What say you then to Leo the great, or rather to S. Gregorie: who had the Church-causes, euen such as touched persons, referred to their Sée, and willed them to be so, as their epistles shew.

Rainoldes.

In déede Leo, and Gregorie are somewhat large that way. Though Leo, as *Wolfgang. Laz. commen…ar. reip. Roman. l. 2. c. 2.the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time, then afterwarde in Gregories: so had fewer of them. Gregorie had more: yet he had not all.

Hart.

Not all: but all the greater. And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime.

Rainoldes▪

But they claime all the greater, through the whole world, which Gregorie neither had nor claimed.

Hart.

No? Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie, Spaine, Fraunce, Afrike, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicilia, Dalmatia, and many countries mo?

Rainoldes.

Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes, nor through the whole world. And this very shew of the names of coūtries, by which hD. Saunders, de visib. Monar. eccles. lib. 7.your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued, is a demonstration in truth to disproue it. For, rehersing only those which you hauehave named, with England, Ireland, Corcyra, and Graecia, and saying y^t Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops, and Churches, though neither prouing so much, but admit he proued it: yet, in bringing only the names and proofes of these, he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia, Mysia, Scythia, Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, Armenia, Pamphylia, Lydia, Pisidia, Lycaonia, Phrygia, Lycia, Caria, Hellespontus, Aegypt, Iury, Phoenicia, Syria, Cilicia, Cyprus, Arabia, Mesopotania, Isauria, with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioche, and Ierusalem.

Hart.

Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly: yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them. For whereas the Patriarke (saith iRegistr. lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 64.he) doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike: if any fault bee founde in Bishops, I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it. Behold, not onelyonly Bishops, but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope, by S. Gregories iudgement: yea by their owne confession.

Rainoldes.

Nay, it was not a Patriarke but 1P…imas Byzacenus.a Primate, who confessed that. And a Primate is but 2Primae sedis episcopus. Concil. Carthag. can. 17.18. & 19. Distinct. 99. c. Primae sedis.a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince; that is, a Metropolitan.

Hart.

It was Primas Byzancenus, that is to say, the Patriarke of Constantinople: as it is expounded in kc. De Constantinopolit. dist. 22. in glossa. Byzancenus, id est, Constantinopolitanus. Primo enim Constantinopolis dicta fuit Byzantium.the glose on Gratian. For Constantinople was called Byzantium first.

Rainoldes.

Gratian and his glose were deceiued both. For primas Byzacenus (or Byzancenus, if you reade it so) is Primate of Byzacium (lNotitia prouinciarum imper. Rom. called Byzantium too) which was mConc. A…ric. can. 57. & 94. & in subscriptionibus, Prouincia Byzacena.a prouince of Afrike, and therfore nConcil. Carthag. can. 17. & African. passim.had a Primate, as Councels of that countrie shew. Whom, and not the Patriarke of Constantinople, to hauehave bene meant by Gregorie: it is now declared in your Gratian oBy Antonius Contius. In whose notes on G…atian▪ primas By …cenus is expounded, Bizacij q…ae erat vna ex prouincijs Afric…e.too. The Patriarke was too loftie to confesse himselfe subiect to the Pope: he sought to make the Pope his subiect.

Hart.

Perhaps he had sought it before, but not then. For certainely S. pRegistr. lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 63.Gregorie, saying, that the Church of Constantinople is subiect to the See of Rome, addeth, that Eusebius the Bishop of the same citie doth confesse it still.

Rainoldes.

There was qNicephor. Chronolog. tripartit. Ge nebrard. chronog. lib. 3. & caet. Chron. Const.no Eusebius Bishop of that citie in all Gregories time. And they who were Bishops, rRegistr. lib. 4. epist 36. & 38.first Iohn, sLib. 6. epist. 31. & lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 69.then Cyriacus, did vsurpe the title of vniuersall Patriarke, as Gregorie himselfe declareth. Wherefore either Gregorie wrote more then was true, to chéere vp his subiects: or some hath chopt into him that which he wrote not, to aduaunce the credit of the See of Rome. But howsoeuer he thought all Bishops subiect to it if any fault be found in them, perhaps as S. tGal. 2.11.Peter was subiect to S. Paule, and u1. Thes. 5.11. Leu. 19.…7.Christians are one to an other, to be reproued by their brethren when they do offend; but if he meant more, as perhaps he did of a good wil to his See: yet he meant not that which toucheth the point of the Popes supremacie, geuen you to proue, to wéete, that Bishops causes through the whole world must be referred to him. And hereof himselfe is a sufficient witnesse, in that xGrego. Regist. lib. 11. ep. 54.he ouerruleth the case by 1No…ella tradirio, as Grego…ie calleth … meaneth Nouell. 123. cap. 2….the law of Iustinian the Emperour. For, if any man (sayth he) accuse a Bishop for whatsoeuer cause: let the cause bee iudged by his Metropolitan. If any man gainsay the Metropolitans iudgemēt, let it be referred to the Archbishop and Patriarke of that diocese, and let him end it according to the canons and lawes.

Hart.

The causes of Bishops (I grant) must first be heard of their Metropolitans; and next, of their Patriarkes. Yet if the Patriarkes iudgement be misliked too: then may the partie gréeued appeale to the Pope, and so they come to him last.

Rainoldes.

Gregorie meant not so, but that the last iudge thereof should be the Patriarke: as did Iustinian also. Which they shew playnely, by saying, Let him 2P…aebeat finē.end it 3Secundum … & lege….according to the canons and lawes. For both yConcil. Chalcedon. can. 9. & 17.the canons of that Councell which referred the causes of Bishops to the Patriarkes, did mē tion thē as the last Iudges: & zforeign. C. de episcopali a…dientia.the lawes of Emperours which granted appeales from Metropolitans to them, 4foreign.granted no appeale from them to any other; nay, for bad expressely al appealing from them.

Hart.

Yet euen there S. Gregorie giueth a speciall priuilege and preeminence to the Pope aboue other Patriarkes. For he addeth, that if a Bishop hauehave no Metropolitan nor Patriarke at all: then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolike, which is the head of all Churches.

Rainoldes.

True: he addeth that beyond the canons of Councels, and the lawes of Emperours. But in the meane season, he yéeldeth that the causes of Bishops, who were subiecte to any other Patriarke, must not be referred to the Popes See. Whereby it is euident that not all their causes through the whole world were claimed by S. Gregorie. And herewithal by this place it may be noted too, that when he nameth the See and Church of Rome the head of all Churches, he meaneth it of excellencie for sundrie giftes aboue them, not of the supremacie for power to gouerne them. Which answereth the question that you made before aChapt. 7. Diuision 9.vpō the same title: If the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches, why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops? For the name of head is geuen to that Church in respect of others: as if the citie of London shoulde bée called in England▪ the head of all cities. The Lord Mayor of London might chaūce to hauehave a fauourer, who would aske thereon: If the citie of London be the head of all cities, why not the Mayor of London the head of all Mayors? But I knowe no Mayor so simple in England, that vponupon this sophisme would yéelde himselfe a subiect to the Lord Mayor of London.

Hart.

Yet your selues grant, y^• bIn Concilio Africano.Zosimus, Boniface, & Caelestinus, did claime the right of appeales to be made to thē in the causes of Bishops through the whole world. Who being Popes before Gregorie, almost two hundred yeares: it followeth that they of the second sort did auouch as much for the Popes supremacie in iudging Church-causes, as their successours of the last doe, which you denied.

Rainoldes.

And I denie it still: neither doth that proue it. For the last sort claimeth cCap. Maiores. de baptismo.al the greater causes of the church. Wherein dc. Etsi dominici: De poenit. & remission. in extrauag. commun. Bulla, quae publicatur per Papam in die Coenae Domini: inscript. Literae processus. In eclog. Bullar. & motu proprior. Greg. decimitert.they comprehend not only the causes of Bishops and the Clergie, but of all estates, as many as doe fall within the *Casus reseruati Apostolicae se… di. De quibus Concil. Trident. Sess. 14. cap. 7.reserued cases, as they call them. And because these cases by the ancient eConcil. Nicaen. can. 5. Antioc…en. can. 2. Constantinop. prim. can. 2.Councels should be all determined within their own… Prouinces, not referred to Rome: therefore fc. Significasti, De election.no Councel may prescribe a law (they say) to bind them. But the other, whom you named of the second sort, did neither take vponupon them such power ouer Councels, nor claime appeales in causes of any, but of Bishops, or Clergie at the most. As for y^e cases which Popes reserue now from ordinarie Iudges to their owne Eschequer: the seconde sort of Popes was so farre from doing it, that they were in their graues many hundred yeares before the sent thereof was felt. Wherefore you ouerreach…d your selfe, M. Hart, when you sayde that gChapt. 7. Diuisi. 7.the Bishop of Rome hath alwayes vsed the practise of the supremacie. For it is apparant by this which I hauehave shewed, that not one of them for the space of sixe hundred yeares after Christ did euer either vse it, or claime it as his right.

Hart.

Yes: they hearde the causes of Clergie-men appealing to them, and held that they might doe so. Wherefore they claimed the supremacie, and vsed it too.

Rainoldes.

Which reason is as good, as if a Kentish Gentleman should say that all the Countie of Kent is his own, because he hath a Lordship in the Weald of Kent.

Hart.

What? doe you accounte it so small a matter, that Clergie-men, yea Bishops shoulde appeale to them out of all prouinces through the whole world?

Rainoldes.

A goodly Lordship and large. But nothing so large as the Weald of Kent, much lesse as all Kent. There are many Lordships mo within the Countie, which the auncient Popes neither had, nor claimed. One Lordship of being subiecte to no man, no not to the Emperour. An other, of hauing power ouer Princes to excommunicate and depose them. An other, of binding Bishops, Metropolitanes, and Patriarkes with an oth to be their faythful subiects. An other, of giuing Church-liuings and offices vntounto whom they list. An other, of breaking the bandes of al Councels with dispensations and decrées. An other, of reseruing cases to their Sée. Whereof (to passe the rest, which you may finde recorded in their 1Decretales epistolae.Rolles, and 2Regulae cancellariae Apostolicae.Chancerie) sith they neither chalenged nor possessed any: they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie; I meane, they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie.

Hart.

But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed, belongeth to their Sée, and is theirs of right.

Rainoldes.

No. For the exception hIn the third Diuisiō of this Chapter.which I made against them was of two branches: one, that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope; the other, that they auouch more, through affection, then is true and right. And this is very manifest not onelyonly by the dealinges of them whom I named: but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged.

Hart.

Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane: they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason. But they, whom I alleaged, of the second sort, were holy men, and Saints.

Rainoldes,

The Apostles of Christ (I hope) were Saintes too. Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that iMat. 20.20. Luke. 9.46. & 22.24.they did not onelyonly desire superioritie, but also striue about it. Innocentius, Leo, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and Gregorie, the men whō you alleaged, were not greater then the Apostles. And the praise which they giuegive to their See of Rome, doth so excéede the truth: that it beareth euident markes of their affection. You might hauehave perceiued it in that which you cited out of kEp…st. 91. inte… epist. Aug.Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God: by which (he saith) they decreed, that, whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off, it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome. For what were the Fathers who decréed that? where is the sentence of God, by which they did it? Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches, which not Innocentius onelyonly, but the rest too (as lChapt. 1. Diuis. 2.I hauehave shewed in Leo,) doo lend their Church & Peter. Yea, some flat repugnant to the holy scripture: and that, confessed by your selues. For they say that mVigilius in decretis suis▪ cap. vlt.all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman. The holy nEsai. 2.3. Act. 1.4. & 2.5. & 8.4·scripture maketh *Which therefore is called the mother of all Churches by y^e Fathers of the Councell (the second generall Coūcel) of Constantinople. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. Although the Popes nowe & their Trent-councell do belie the Church of Rome with that title. Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. De baptism. can 3. Ses. 14. de Sacrament. extrem. vnction. cap. 3. Sess. 22. cap. 8. Sess. 25. Decret. de delectu ciborum.Ierusalem the spring of them. They say that oInnocent. ep. 93. inter Epist. Aug.all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter. The holy pAct. 14.23. & 20.28. Tit. 1. ver. 5. & 7.scripture teacheth, that many had it from other Apostles, not from him. They say qGelasius in decret. cum 70. episcopis.that the Church of Rome hath neither spot, norwrinckle, nor any such thing. The holy rEph 9 …7scripture sheweth y^t the Church is san…ctified, & framed to be hereafter not hauing spot, or wrinckle or any such thing, whē Christ shal make it glorious & triumphant in heauen: not, but that it hath such, while it is militant on the earth.sHieron. in Ierem. cap. 31, August. Retract. l. 2. c. 18. Which is so apparant, that not the Fathers only, but tSumm. Theolog. part. 3. q. 8. art. 3.Thomas of Aquine also, and D uPrincip. doct. l. 1. c. 2. & 8.Stapleton confesse it. Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged: it cannot be denied but they had affections, and yéelded thereunto as men. Howbeit the thirde sort (I graunt) are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault. For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture: but they must abuse, yea, coine scripture too, for maintenance of their Papall port. They can teach the Church that xc. Significasti. de electione.the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops 1Tali conditione, si sacramentum exhiberes.vponupon this condition, if they will be sworne to him: because whē Christ committed his sheepe vntounto Peter, he 2Conditionem posuit.did condition with him, saying, aIoh. 21.16.if thou louelove me, feede my sheepe. They can teach the Church that yc. Vnā sanctā extra. de maiorit. & obed.the Pope hath power ouer all powers, & Princes of the earth, & none hath power ouer him, because b1, Cor. 2.15.the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges, yet hee himselfe is iudged of no mā. They can teach the Church that zIn concil. Lateran. sub Leon. decim. Sess. 11.Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars, who, (by cEx libri Regū testimonio.the testimony of the booke of kinges) must needes be so obeyed, that he who obeieth them not, must die the death: and, as it is read dWhere is that read?otherwhere, Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church.

Hart.

That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges, is in the booke of Deuteronomie. The text is true scripture, though the place mistaken. And, though it belong not to the Pope immediatly.

Rainoldes.

Nay, neuer goe about to salue it, M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we hauehave eChap. 6. Diuis. 1.alredy handled. Pope Leo y^e tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges, when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie, & Deuteronomie for the Papacie. But what soeuer you think of the third, or seconde, or any sort of Popes: it is against all law both of God, and man, that they should bée witnesses in their own matter. And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better: the iury will cast you, out of all controuersie. For fIoh. 5.31.if I should beare witnesse of my selfe (saith Christ) my witnesse were not true. gL. nullus D. de testibus. L. omnibus. C. eo. 4.9.2. & 3. c. Si testes.None are fit witnesses in their own causes: hCicer. pro Roscio.no not though they were as worthy mē as Scipio was amōgst y^e Romans. It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall: Iohn a Noke must hauehave this land; for Iohn a Noke saith so. The i9. q. 3. c. pater. in glossa. C…em. vnica de iureiurando. In glossa Iohannis Andreae.Canonistes themselues, when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie, doe note, that 1Familiaris est haec probatio quum Papa alium Papam adducit in testem.it is a familiar kind of proofe: meaning such belike, as that in the common prouerbe, Aske my felow if I be a theefe. Which they might note the better, because it is euidēt that 2Summi Pontifices suas fimbrias nimis extēdentes. Spoken by allusion to y^e Scribes and Pharises, who enlarged the Phylacteries and frindges of their garments. Mat. 13.5.the Popes hauehave stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power, as kAen. Silu. de gestis Basilien…sis concil. l. 1. Iacobus Almain de autor. ecclesiae cap. 8. The sixth Diuision.great Diuines among you, hauehave written in these very termes.

Hart.

The power, which they claimed, hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men. But it was no more then their right and due. Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues: I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers.

Rainoldes.

Of whom?

Hart.

Of the chéefest of them, both Gréeke and Latine. For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third, Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first, and to Caelestinus, Epist. 90.92.95. S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius, Epist. 1. & 2. S. Basil, to the Pope in his time, Epist. 52. S. Ierom, to Damasus, Epist. 57.58. tom. 2. and other likewise to others: that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment.

Rainoldes.

If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie: I must request the iury to hauehave an eye to the issue. For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise, and counsell; some by their autoritie, and credit; some by both. By their aduise, and counsell▪ as Ierom, of Damasus. By their autoritie & credit: as Chrysostome, of Innocentius. By both: as Basill, Austin, and the Bishops of Afrike, of the Popes in their time. Bernard somewhat more. But he liued yesterday, in comparison of the rest: and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers. Though neither he by this point proueth the Papacy. And what his iudgement was thereof lChap. 6. Diuision, 4.I hauehave declared. Now for them, first, who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope: I will tell you a storie, which (I pray) consider of. mSocrat. hist. ecclesiast. l. 5. cap. 10.Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of y^e Church, consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople, what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion. The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop. The Bishop to Sisinius, a reader in his church. The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke. Which the Patriarke liked of, and shewed it to the Emperour: the Emperour embraced it, and dealt according thereunto.

Hart.

You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell, and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head.

Rainoldes.

True: as the Emperour might of the Patriarke; the Patriarke, of the Bishop; the Bishop of the reader.

Hart.

The case is not like. For it was the personal wisdome, vertue, lerning, or faith of these men, which made them to be sought to. But that, which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes, was the prerogatiue of their office:

Rainoldes.

Wherein they could not erre, as you heard say at nThe Rhemish Annot. on Luk. 22.31.Rhemes. But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte, must be put in mind that by the same reason oSext Synod. Constantinopolit. act. 12.Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius, in respect not of his personall wisedome, vertue, learning or faith, but of his office too. And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse, that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations, which he dealeth with by reason of his office, as Pope Honorius did: or, the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell, did séeke in respect of their personall giftes, that they were learned and godly Pastours; as pAugust. epist. …om. 2.many sought to Austin then, qCaluini epistolae & resposa.to Caluin lately, though neither of them were Pope.

Hart.

Nay: it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake. For rEpist. 57.he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter: that is, the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus.

Rainoldes.

But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers, that is, the Christian faith, which Damasus kept vncorrupted. And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned, not as a Pastour only: not for his office sake alone, but for his person, succéeding as in place, so in doctrine to Peter. Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus: his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith, doth not import soueraintie of power, sChapt. 7. Diuision 8.as I hauehave shewed. Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked, import it, tEpist. 52.about asswaging of their troubles. Least of all, that Austin, and the Bishop of Afrike: who, vnderunder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius, uPossid. de vit. August. cap. 18.in trueth gaue him counsell, for feare least the Pelagians should hauehave seduced him to their errour. Wherefore the auncient Fathers, who sought aduise of Popes, proue not the Popes supremacie. No more doe they in déede who sought to further others, or reléeue themselues, by the Popes autoritie. For autoritie & power differ: that such, as are their brethrens superiours in the one, may be their inferiours or equals in the other. As xChap. …. Diuision 3.wée agréed, if you remember.

Hart.

It may be so, I graunt. But they, whom I named, sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes, as to supreme heads of all the Church in power, not as to their superiours in autoritie only.

Rainoldes.

Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie. For ySocrat. hist. ecclesiast. lib. 6. cap. 14. Sozomen. l…b. 8. c. 17.Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies, namely, by the Bishop of Alexandria & others assembled in a Councell, did appeale from them to a generall Councell, and (as zEpist. 1. ad Innocentium,himselfe speaketh thereof) to iust iudgement. Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell, and not to the Pope.

Hart.

But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike, notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell, he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force, as in deed they were not, and that they who did him such wrong, might bee punished.

Rainoldes.

But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell, to which hée had appealed: a member, in power; a principall member, in autoritie. For in praying him aboue the rest to write: he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren. But, in appealing to them all ioyntly, not to him alone: hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged, not to him, but to them in common. Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall, that they are forbidden by 1…e meaneth canons of Coū cels cheefely Cōcil. Constantinopolit. can. 2.lawes of the Fathers to take on thē 2His wordes in Latin are tr…smōtanos ad nostra iudicia. non trahendos. But y^e Greeke canon hath foreign Which word being vsed by Chrysostome here▪ (as I gheste by the circumstāces, for the Greeke I hauehave not seene) was mistaken by the translator, as if it had come from foreign mons, not foreign terminus.the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese. Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope, was of autoritie, not of power. The same I say of Basil, or rather aEpist. 52,himselfe saith it, desiring, that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them.

Hart.

You doe vsus great iniurie, by this newe distinction of autoritie and power. For Basil meant power, when he named autoritie.

Rainoldes.

You will not say so, if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech. For bSocrat. lib. 1. cap. 2.1….21. & 30.the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens, an Arian, who persecuted the Catholikes: the Churches of the West (vnderunder Valentinian, a Catholike Emperour) did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops. Whereupon S. cEpis…. 48.Basil conferring with Athanasius (both Bishops of the East) about their Churches state, saith, that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onelyonly way & meanes to helpe it, in his iudgement. For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches, which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour: it is likely (saith he) that they should do vsus good, by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence 3foreign.the credit of their multitude: & the people eueryevery where would folow them without gainsaying. Now this, whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first, is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for. Whom dEpist. 2.he prayed to deale 4foreign ▪himselfe in the matter, & vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose, because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily Epist. 52.by a cō mon conference and decree of Councell. So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly, because their consent & multitude had greater credit: as in eEpist. 47.his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe. It was not power therefore, but credit, and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope. Which you must néedes graunt, vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power, against your fConcil. Trid. Sess. 14, cap. 7.Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church. As for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike: it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction, as you terme it. For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to: gEpist. 90…92. et 96. apud Aug.they desired the one to assist them with 6Statutis nostrae mediocritatis Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur autoritas▪ &. Autoritati sanctitatis tu… facilius eos ces…uros speramus. &. damnet ea Pelagius paterna exhortatione & autoritate …anctitatis tuae.his autoritie; hEpist. Conc. Af…ican. de Caelestin. in Concil. Afric. cep. 105.the other, not to chalenge 7Either by hearing their causes at Rome, or by sē ding Legates a latere vntounto them.power in their Church causes. A great fault of yours: to say, that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office, when they dealt against *Quasi ecclesiae Romanae priuilegia, auouched by Faustinus y^e Legate of the Pope reproued by S. Austin and the Bishop of Afrike, in epist. conc. African▪ ad Caelestin.his vsurped prerogatiue. Greater, if you did it wittingly and willingly. Wherof 1The …hemish An…otat. in Luk. 22.31.your Annotations do geue strong suspicion, in that hauing quoted all the other places, they l…ue this vnquoted, least the reader should find the fraude.

Hart.

I was not at the finishing of our Annotations. They who set them downe, knew their own meaning: and will (I warrant you) maintaine it. But what a souerainty y^e Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this, (as D. kPrinc. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 10.Stapleton sheweth,) that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it. For lEpist. Synod. Nicen. ad Syluestr. Tom. 11 conciliot.the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice, (the first generall Councell) sent their epistle to Pope Siluester, beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined.

Rainoldes.

The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope. Their epistle is forged: and he, who forged it, was not his craftes-master. For one of the 1Hosius episcopus Cordubae, & Macarius episcopus ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae.Fathers pretended to hauehave writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople. Whereas mCassiodor. in chronico. Sigon. de occident. imper. lib. 4.Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the 2Paulino & Iuliano consulibus.date of this epistle, but was called Bizantium: 3Episcopos totius vaestrae Apostolicae vrbis.neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time, but Alexander. Moreouer, they are made to request the Pope that nSocrat. hist. eccle. lib. 1. ca. 25. & l. 2. c. 4. Nicephor. chronolog. tripartit. Genebr. chron. lib. 3.he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie. Which is a droonken, spéech, sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one; & that one was himselfe. Unlesse they vsed y^e word [citie] as the Pope (answering them in like sort) that he 4Cum episcopis totius vrbis Italiae. Praemonit. ad lectorem pro epist. Synodi Nisenae & Syluestri.conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie. And so it is more sober, but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice. Finally, neither Eusebius, (who was at the Councell) nor Rufinus, nor Socrates, nor Theodoret, nor Sozomen, nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing. Only 1Hosius episcopus Cordubae, & Macarius episcopus ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae.Peter Crabbe (the setter foorth of it) had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein. But whēce had the Fryers it?

Hart.

The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople (the second generall Councel) wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees. And that is witnessed by oHist. ecclesi…t. lib. 4. cap. 9.Theodoret.

Rainoldes.

It is, and so witnessed, that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie, which D. Stapleton would proue by it. For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus, Ambrose, Britto, Valerian, Ascholius, Anemie, Basill, and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome. Nor only to them, but to the Emperour Theodosius. Yea, to Theodosius in seueral, and more forcibly. For pEpist. Concil. Constantinopo. lit. ad Theodosium imperat. in Graec. decret. & Libell. Sinodicar. constit. lat.they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances. Wherefore if the Pope hauehave such a supremacie, whose 5foreign, & foreignconsent and liking therof they desired▪ what supremacie hath the Emperor, whom they besought to 6foreignratifie them, and to confirme them?

Hart.

Nay: your own distinction of power and authoritie, dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour. For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine, were true; and of discipline, good; though he had not confirmed them. But more would accept of them as good and true, through his word & countenance. As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements. Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit, for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées: not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion.

Rainoldes.

Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true, of false; or good, of euill: but to make his subiectes vse them as good, and true, being so in déede. Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too. But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus. For the doctrine of Christ, which they decréed, was true; & the discipline, good; though he had not consented to it. But more would accept of it as good, & true, through his agréement and allowance. As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops. Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit, for which they desired his consent to their decrées: not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion. Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone, but of other Bishops to like thereof also, that the Christian faith being agreed vponupon, and louelove confirmed amongst them, they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions.

Hart.

All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them. But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort. For S. qEpist. 29 tom. 4. oper. Cyrill.Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus, that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell, and confirmed all thinges that were done therein.

Rainoldes.

S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus, but of Sixtus. Howbeit, if he had: yet this would proue autoritie still, and not power. As rIn chronico.Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril, and the authoritie of Caelestinus. But these very wordes of Cyrill, touching Sixtus, doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels. For, the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession. Notwithstanding Sixtus, who succéeded him, did confirm it afterward. In déede y^e truth dependeth neither of Coūcel, nor of Pope: though, whē Popes & Councels were good & godly minded, they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth. For as Ioshua sayd to s…os. 24. ver. 1.all the tribes of Israel, euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell, tver. 15.If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde, choose you whom you will serue, whether the Gods which your Fathers serued, or the Gods of the Amorites; but I and my house will serue the Lord ▪ so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe, and ought to be imbraced of eueryevery Christian with his houshold, whether it please the tribes, that is, the Church, or no. But the Church is named u1. Tim. 3.15.the piller and ground of truth in respect of men, because it beareth vp the truth, and confirmeth it, through preaching of the word, by the ministerie of xMal. 2.7.Priests in the old testament, and yAct 20 …8.Bishops in the new, whom therefore zEpist. 70.Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth. Now, the more there be of these who maintaine it, and the greater credit they hauehave amongst men: the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be, and many yéeld the sooner to it. For which cause aGal. 2. v. 1. & 2the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul, though assuredly bver. ….true, yet cv. 6. & 9.was cōfirmed by Iames, Peter, and Iohn, who were counted to be pillers; yea, by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem: and being so confirmed was ever. 31.receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche, and fAct. 16. ver. 4.in other cities; in so much that gver. ….the Churches were stablished in the faith, and increased in number daily. The men of God therfore, who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth, desired the consent, some time of all Bishops, as in hAthanas. in Apolog. 2. Theodoret. hist eccles. l. 2. cap. 8.the Councell of Sardica; sometime of the Pope, as in iEpist. 90. inter epist. August.the Councell of Carthage: not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force, but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them. And, that generall Councels, if they had desired the Pope to confirme them, which all of them did not, but if they had done so, yet must hauehave done it in this consideration: you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent, euen kDefens. fid. Tride…t. lib. 1.Andradius. Who not only voucheth that *Doctissimi viri s…pientissimè existimant.most learned mē do most wisely thinke it, as Alfonsus lAlfonsu… a Castro de iusta haereticorum pu…itione, l. 1. c. 6.namely: but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata, the chéefest patrone of the Pope, for proofe of the same, or rather of a farther point. For if there shoulde happen such a case (sayth mIohan▪ ruriecrem. de Pont. Max. gener. que Concil. autoritate ad Basil…ē sium oratorem respon. nu. 67. & 6….the Cardinal) that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord, and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree: men ought (in my iudgement) to obey the Councell therein, and not the Pope. And why? Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith. Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope, 1Non potestate iurisdictionis.not in power of iurisdiction, 2Sed autoritate discretiui iudicij, or maioritate, as Turrecremata calleth it, in Summ. de eccles. l. 3. c. 64.but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges, and in amplenesse of knowledge. Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors, that, to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had, not power: and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither, no not as much as equall, but inferiour to them. So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie.

Hart.

Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie, after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata: yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction, wherin his supremacie doth principally stand. And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too. For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, Paul of Constantinople, Asclepas of Gaza, Marcellus of Ancyra, Lucian of Adrianople, and very many other Bishops of the East, being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians, did appeale to the Pope, as nHist. tripart. l. 4. c. 15. Socrat. l. 2. c. 15. Sozomen. l. 3. c. 8.ecclesiasticall stories shew.

Rainoldes.

The stories shew it not: but oD. Stapleton▪ Princip. doctr. lib. 4.cap. 19.he, who sayth they shew it, sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point, as in plib. 7. c. 10.the former with S. Cyrill. Hath he abused you so often, and will you neuer cease to credit him?

Hart.

The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius, and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches, perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully.

Rainoldes.

The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome, in restoring them, was but of autoritie, and honour, not of power. For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome. Which Iulius himself, and Athanasius both do testifie. Athanasius, who speaking thereof qApologia. 2.ascribeth it plainly to the Councell. Iulius, who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell, rIn epist. ad episcopos Antiochiae congregatos. Apud Athan. apol. 2.answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other; that themselues had offred to hauehave the cause debated so in iust iudgement, and thereto had requested a Councell to be called; that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell, and they who should hauehave also appeered made defaute; that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie, relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed; to be short, that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein, he did it on the Coū cels iudgement, and consent, not on his owne head. Wherefore it was not the Pope, but the Councell, that heard and determined the causes of Bishops, whether at first, or on appeales. Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime, nor Athanasius giuegive him.

Hart.

Yes: there is an other epistle of Iulius, sRescrip…. Iulij Papae c…tra orientales. Conc. Tom. 1.wherein hée claimed such power, and that vponupon the canons of the Councell of Nice.

Rainoldes.

I told you oftIn the 3. Diuision of this Chapter. epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes. This is one of them. It should be the very same, that I alleaged, extant in Athanasius. But it is no liker it, then black is to white. The canons, which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers, bewray the lewdnesse of it. The more, because Iulius in the same epistle (as Athanasius hath it) citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope, who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell. Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle, as it is confessed: you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit.

Hart.

Yet uHist. eccle. l. 2. cap. 17.Socrates & xlib. 3 cap. 10.Sozomē report, that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians, that whereas they called not him vntounto the Councell, therein they did vnlawfully: because it was prouided by a law of the Church, that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide.

Rainoldes.

If Iulius had writen so to the Arians: Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth. For by yConci. Nicaen. ca…. 5.the Nicen Canons (which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time) it was ordered, that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in eueryevery prouince. To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope: or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of. But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius, as zPrinc. doctr. lib. 7. ca. 10.Stapleton doth now. And whereas aIulius in epi. ad episcopos An…io…h. congregat. Apud Athan. apolog. 2.he had said, know ye not that this is the maner and custome 1Vt p…imum nobis scribatur.that ye should write to vsus first, that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust? they thought that he had spoken of himselfe, belike, and had meant the Pope by the word [vsus,] by which he meant the Councell. For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name, as Athanasius noteth: and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before, 2Oportuit scribere omnibus nobis.ye ought to hauehave written vntounto all vsus, that so that which is iust might be decreed by all.

Hart.

Whatsoeuer you conceue ofthe doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius: yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly. And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too▪ For bEpist. ad Theodosiam.the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one; and cEpist. ad Leonem.Theodoret himselfe, the other.

Rainoldes.

Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus: but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell, not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of dEpist. 13.Leo himselfe, complayning to the Emperour Theodosius of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus; and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept, because Flauianus had appealed. You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian: and with the ones words of 3Flauianus … appellauit.appealing to Leo, take that eEpist. Gallae Placidiae ad Theodosium.the other sayth, to Leo 4… ad omnes episcapos haiú partium.and to all the Bishops of these partes. So Leo, and the Bishops being ioyned together, will make the Councell of Chalcedon: by the which Councell fConcil. Chalc. act. 1.the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged. The same Councell also gact. 8.did iudge Theodorets cause; & finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée. Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale: if he appealed to Leo, and not to the Councell, it was an ouersight. Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge▪ that might restore him; but as to a man of learning and autoritie, whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie. And this doth the tenour of hTheodoret. epist. ad Leon.his request pretend. Though asking wi…hall the aduise of Leo, whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation, or seeke to be restored: he séemeth to hauehave thought of a further matter. Which yet he toucheth so, in speaking of troubling men, and crauing Leos prayers: that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him. Wherefore, the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him, is, that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President. As with vsus in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament, that he may informe the Parlament thereof, not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them.

Hart.

Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell, as in déede he was, and head of the Bishops therein, as i…elat Synod. Chalce…on. ad Leon. act. 3.themselues say. Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head.

Rainoldes.

You will find more heads, then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare, if you make such reasons. First, the Bishop of Corduba. For kAthan. in ep. ad solitar. vitam agent. Apolog. de …uga …ua: & Apolog. 2.Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice: nor of Nice onelyonly, but also of Sardica, and of many others. Next, the Bishop of Antioche, or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople. For lAs it appeareth by their epistle to Damasus, in Theodo…et. Hist. eccles. lib. 5. c. 9.the Pope had it not. Thirdly, the Bishop of Alexandria.

Hart.

Nay, Cyrill, who had it in the third general Councel, was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus, as mH…tor. eccle. lib. 1. cap. 4.Euagrius writeth.

Rainoldes.

Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils. But Cyrill was President, as wel as Caelestinus, in nValentinian & Martian. ep. ad Pallad. Concil. Chalcedon. act. 3. & Episcopi variarum p…o…nciarū ▪ act. 4.more mens iudgement then Euagrius. Howbeit, if he were not: yet Alexandria will hauehave a head still. For oActa Ephes. Synod. 2. in cō cil. Chalc. act. 1.Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus: neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea. Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head: then Corauba in Spaine, Alexandria in Egypt, Ierusalem in Iewrie, and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie. The Pope will be loth to hauehave so many partners. But to deliuer him from that feare, or rather the Church from his tyrannie, and the truth from your sophisme: there is a distinction in pSumma de ecclesia lib. 3. cap. 23.Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vponupon this very point. The Presidētship of Councels (he sayth) is two-folde: one, 1Praesidentiae honoraria:of honour; an other, 2Autoritatiua, as Turrecrema to calleth it. But he vseth that word to note potestatē, and not … reputationis, as h… dis…inguisheth it, lib. 3. cap. 18.of power. Presidentship of honor, is, to hauehave preeminēce in place, to propose things, to direct the actions, to giuegive definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell▪ Presidentship of power is to hauehave the right, not onelyonly of directing, but of ruling their doings also, and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement, though the greater part of the Councell like it not, yea, though no part like it. Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels, as though he alone were soue…aine iudge there: which appéereth by his practise in q…s y^e Clemē tines shew: & Iohan. Andr. in p…inc…p. Clemē tin.the Councell of Vienna, and by the rSumma de eccles. lib. 3. ca. 22.23. & 25.Cardinals doctrine with the sCanus Iocor. Theolog. l. 5. c. 5. Sander. de visib. monarc. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 5. & …. passim.chiefest Papists. But that, which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vntounto Leo in naming him their head, was the Presidentship of honour: as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies, tConc. Chalc. act. 3. & 8.who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges, and concluded nothing but what they agréed of. Wherefore the Presidentship, which they gaue to Leo, was no Papall soueraintie: neither did they acknowledge him in that particular, much lesse the Pope in generall, to be their supreme head.

Hart.

The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope, and taught vsus to acknowledge him, our uact. 3.vniuersall Patriarke and xCyprian lib. …. epist. 11.Bishop of the Catholike Church: nay (to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers) yOptatus. lib. 2.our Prince, zVictor de persequut Va…dal. lib. 2.the head of al Churches, aChrysos. hom. 87. in Iohan.the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company, or (as bIn Anchorat.Epiphanius speaketh) the chiefest, cHom. 87. in Iohan.the teacher of the whole world, dAmbros. com. in 1. Tim. 3.the ruler of the house of God, eAugust. quaest. ex nou. Testam. quaest. 75.an other father of the houshold, and fChrysost. hom. 59. in Mat.the first begotten; whose seate (as the most excellent Diuine, S. gLib. 1. cap. 1. ad Bonifacium.Austin sayth) hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops. And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie?

Rainoldes.

If any man doe: he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else. Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton. For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie. Which therefore he culled out, and sent them for hEpistola dedicato…ia Pontifici optimo Maximo, Gregorio decimo tertio, ad hum…llima pedum oscula.a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth: to shew what good wordes they giuegive of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries. But he presenteth him with one title more, which you hauehave omitted: and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest.

Hart.

None of the titles which the Fathers giuegive him. Belike you meane that of iMartianus in epist. ad Leon.the Emperour.

Rainoldes.

No: I meane that of his owne, *Which is as much to say, as, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. Act. 19.28.Supremum in terris Numen. In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it. But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope: so, in the rest, the notable sophister with you. For the titles of our Prince, the toppe, the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie, the teacher of the whole world, an other father of the houshold, and the first begotten: are giuen by Optatus, Chrysostome, Epiphanius, and a kSo Alfonsus proueth him, aduers. haeres. lib. 10. in Melchisedec: and the Diuines of Louā, Censura in lib. quaest. ver. & nou. Test. in append. Tom. 4. oper. Augustin.bastard Austin, to Peter, not to the Pope. Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers. That is cunningly spoken. For it is true he vseth their wordes, though not their meaning. As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke: the Councell of Chalcedon (which he quoteth for it) gaue it not to the Pope neither.

Hart.

No? did not lConcil. chalc act. 3.Theodore and certaine others there giuegive it to Pope Leo.

Rainoldes.

A few poore suiters, in their supplications to him and the Councell, did séeke his fauour with it. But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell gaue it him.

Hart.

They gaue it him, at least by their consent, & iudgement. For they would hauehave reproued it when they heard it read in the supplications, if they had not allowed of it.

Rainoldes.

Say you so? what thinke you then of mConcil. Lateran. sub Leone decim. sess. 10.y^e Coū cell of Lateran? where the Pope is tolde (and that, in a nStephan. archiepisc. Patrac. & episc. Torcellan.Sermon) that 1Tibi data est omnis potestas in c…elo & in terra. Spoken to Pope Leo the tenth.to him is giuen all power in heauen and in earth; yea, which is more, that 2In quo erat omnis potestas supra omnes potestates tam coeli quam terrae. Spoken of Pope Eugeniu… the third.he hath all power aboue all powers both of heauen and of earth. Did the Councell allow of these blasphemous spéeches? They did not reproue them.

Hart.

But the Councell of Chalcedon did offer themselues the title of vniuersall Patriarke to Pope Leo, as S. oRegistr. lib. 4. epist. 32. & 36.Gregorie writeth: they did not only heare it giuen him by others.

Rainoldes.

S. Gregorie affirmeth it to be pepist. 32.a new, a proud a pompous, a profane, qepist. 38.a rash, peruerse, foolish, abominable, repist. 39.wicked, and sl. 6. ep. 24.superstitious title: tl. 4. ep. 32. & 38.a name of singularitie, of arrogancie, of blasphemie. The Councell of Chalcedon was a companie of six hundred Bishops and thirtie, sound in religion, and zealous of the glorie of God. You must pardon me, if I discredit rather the word of one Gregorie: then thinke that sixe hundred and thirtie such Bishops did offer to commit so great iniquitie and folie. For neither is there any proofe of that offer in any part of the Councell, which is wholy extant: and that which made uRegist. lib. 7. ind. 2. ep. 63. as I hauehave shewed in the former Diuision.Gregorie to misreport the Bishop of Constantinople, might induce him likewise to misreport these Bishops too. Wherein his affection may be the more suspected, because xlib. 7. ind. 1. epist. 30.he sayth farther, that it was offered to his predecessors not only by the Councel, but also by the Fathers following. The names (it is likely) of these Fathers following should hauehave bene foorth comming, if they had bene at hand, the matter being so important. Howbeit if they, and the Councell both, had not only offered it, but giuen it also: yet might they hauehave giuen it in respect of lesser preeminence then the Papacie. Which it must needes be the Councell should hauehave done: for else they had contraried yConcil. Chalced. …an. 9 & 17. & …8. and in the Sessions throughout.their owne decrées and actions. And zAdrian the …. Synod. … 2. act. 2.the Pope himself gaue it to the Patriarke of Constantinople, as a title of honour (I trow) and not of power. Wherefore the first title, put vponupon the Fathers of the Councell of Chalcedon, inferreth not the Popes supremacie. Much lesse doth the next, alleaged out of Cyprian. For although Cornelius, a godly Bishop of Rome, be there named Bishop of the Catholike Church: yet is he so named, not as the word [Catholike] signi…eth vniuersall, but as it signif… eth right beleeuing, holding the Catholike faith. Wherefore it maketh no more for his supremacie, then for aEpist. Arsen. Athanas. apol. 2Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, and bEpist. concil… Nicaeni, Socrat. l. 1. c. 6. & concilii Sardicensis Theodoret. li. 2. ca. 8. Quint. cō cil. Constantinop. cōfess. 8. in subscript.other Catholike Bishops, who all are named Bishops of the Catholike Church.

Hart.

A particular Church may be called Catholike in respect of the Catholike faith which it professeth. And so was Athanasius Bishop of the Catholike Church of Alexandria.

Rainoldes.

And Cornelius Bishop of the Catholike church of Rome.

Hart.

Nay: he was Bishop of the Catholike Church of the whole world, not of the citie of Rome onelyonly. For it followeth cLib. 3. ep. 11. Epist. 46. edit. Pam. Corneliu… Cypriano.in the same place, that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church.

Rainoldes▪

That is, in the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome. For Cornelius himselfe, in whose epistle that is written, sayth other where (entreating dEpist. ad Fabium Antioch. e…piscopum.of the same matter) that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church, wherein there are sixe and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons. Now eEuseb. hist. eccles. lib. 6. c. 42.in a Synode which then was held at Rome, there were aboue threescore Elders and Deacons: how many hū dred more through the whole world? Wherefore sith six and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons, were not all the Elders and Deacons of the world, but of the citie of Rome: it followeth that the Catholike Church wherein he saith there ought to be one Bishop, was the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome, not of the whole world. And, that this was meant in that of Cornelius, it is very plaine by the occasion of his speéche: as also by the canon of the Councell of Nice made on that occasion. For the Church *As it is shewed before, Ch…pt. 5. …. 2.being troubled at that time with the schisme and heresie of Nouatus: the Nouatians refusing the communion of the Catholikes, ordeined new Bishops for their hereticall synagogues and schismaticall conuenticles. Whereby it came to passe that in one citie there were two Bishops, a Catholike, and an heretike: as in fCyprian. epist. 52. ad An…on.Rome, Cornelius and Nouatianus; in gEpist. 5… ad Corneliu….Carthage, Cyprian, and Fortunatus. The Catholikes therefore, communicating in faith and louelove with Cornelius, hE…ist 46. Cornelij ad Cyp….called him Bishop of the Catholike Church: condemning the Nouatians as heretikes, and schismatikes, with their Bishop Nouatianus. And as they sayd farther, that there ought to be one Bishop in a Catholike Church, according to the ancient order as I iIn the thirde Diuision of this Chapter.shewed: so was it decréed by the kCan. 8.Nicen Councell touching the Nouatians who became Catholikes, that, if a Bishop of theirs were conuerted lSocrat▪ hist. eccl. l. 6. c. 20.the Catholike Church hauing a Bishop; he should not enioy a Bishops roome, but an Elders, least that there shoulde be two Bishops in a citie. Wherefore the Bishoprick of the Catholike Church, in the time of Cornelius, was the charge that euerie Catholike Bishop had. Neyther meant they more who sayd that there ought to bee but one Bishop in a Catholike Church, then S. Chrysostome did, saying to Sisinius Bishop of the Nouatians in Constantinople, A citie may not hauehave two Bishops.

Hart.

But S. mEpist. 55. ad Cornelium.Cyprian writeth, that neither heresies nor schismes hauehave sproong of any other fountaine, then of this, that the Priest of God is not obeyed: and that one Priest for the time in the Church, and one iudge for the tyme in steede of Christ is not regarded. To whom, if the whole brotherhoode would be obedient according to Gods teachings: then no man would make any thing adoe agaynst the company of Priests. Wherein, by one Priest, he meaneth one Bishop; and, by one Bishop, Cornelius the Pope, to whom he writeth those wordes. So that he confesseth the Pope to bée the Bishop of the whole Churche, and teacheth men to thinke of him, as one iudge for the tyme in Christes steede.

Rainoldes.

You erre still in the same point. The Church wherein Cyprian requireth obedience vntounto one Bishop and iudge in Christs steed, is the particular Church of eueryevery citie, not the vniuersall. For he speaketh it on occasion of iniurie offered to himselfe by the Nouatians in Carthage: who there had ordeined a new Bishop against him, as their fellowes did in Rome, against Cornelius. And as the words 1Sacerdotum hostes & cōtra ecclesia catholicam rebelles.before, and 2Sacerdotes, id est, dispensatores Dei.after, do shew that he meaneth it of all Catholike Bishops, ech in his owne charge: so the whole discourse & circumstances argue that he applieth it to himselfe, not to Cornelius. Chiefly, that, of 3Episcopus plebi suae in episcopatu quadriennio iam probatus.a Bishop approued to his people in the Bishoprick foure yeares. Which can by no meanes agree to Cornelius, who was Eusebius in chron. Damasus in Pontificali. Platin. de vit. Pontificum. Ge…brard. Cronogr. lib. 3. O…uphr. in Chrō. Pont. Rom.not thrée yeares Bishop. Or if, because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope, you hauehave such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar: you may know that he writeth the same oEpist. 69. ad Florentium.to an other expresly of himself; Thēce hauehave schismes & heresies sproong, & doe spring, that the Bishop, which is one, and ruleth the church, is despised by the proud presumption of certain men. Wherefore though your pAnnotat. in Luk. 12.31.Rhemists and qPolus Ca…d. pro eccles. vnitat. defens. lib. 2. Remundus Rufus, duplicat. in patronum Molin…i propont. Maximo. Canisius Catechism. de praeceptis ecclesiae tit. 9. Lindanus Panopliae Euangelicae lib. 4. cap. 86. Pamelius Annotat. in Cyprian epi. 55. Copus dialog. 1 cap. 18. & 21. Ha…ding and Dormā against Bishop Iewel. Though Dor… man (being taught the truth by M. Nowell acknowledged that S. Cyprian meant it of all Bishops. As Stapleton (in Hardings behalfe) cōfessed also▪ whose exāple should hauehave moued y^e Rhemists to hauehave spared S. Cyprian in that point.other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest & one iudge for the time in Christs steed: yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester, as for the Bishop of Rome. The more is Stapletons blame: who knowing and confessing the same not onelyonly rIn his Return of vntruths on M. Iewels repli…. Artic. 4..otherwhere, but in sPrincip. doct. lib. 7. cap. 1.this very worke of his principles too; yet in tIn conclusione totius operis & admonit. ad lectorem.the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope. Maruell, that in his preface to Gregorie he past it. He might hauehave alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches. Which title is giuen in uDepersequut. Vandal. lib. 2.Victor to the Church of Rome, not to the Bishop: and toucheth lesse the Papacie there, then in S. Gregorie; in whom it doth not proue it, as xIn the fifth Diuision of this Chapter.I hauehave declared. Marry, that which followeth is of greater shew, out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee: where Damasus (the Bishop of Rome in his time) is called ruler of the Church. But, first, whatsoeuer he were who wrote that, it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan: on whom are falsly fathered the cōmentaries on S. Paul, as your yPraefat. in Biblia excusa Antuerp. a Plantino. & Censur. in lib. quaest. vet. & nou. Test. Tom. 4. in append. operum August.Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie. Next, the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God, [the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus,] are not (in my iudgement) the autours owne wordes, but a glose crept in amongst them. For whereas S. Paule, writing vntounto Timothee, declared why he did so, to wéete, that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God, which is the Church of the liuing God: zCommentaria quae Ambrosij titulum ferunt. in 1. Tim. 3.the commentarie thereon doth expoūd it thus, I write vntounto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church, which is the house of God; that whereas all the world is Gods, yet the Church is called his house. [the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus,] For the world is naught, troubled with sundrie errours. Therefore the house of God and truth must of nece…sitie be saide to be there, where he is feared according to his will. In the which wordes, if that of [Damasus] were omitted, the l…ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly. Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour, but found a …hinke and so came in; as aDamaso Siriciu, …odie.an other glose of [Damasus successour] hath done into bLib …. As Bald…n…. sheweth Annot. in … lib. 1. & 2.Optatus. And I think it the rather, because some are perswaded by manifolde conference, (as your cCen…r. in lib. … 4.Louanists note,) that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin, & this to S. Ambrose are the same autours. For d… Pope vntill about 370. …ieron. in Chron.he, who wrote that booke, was not aliue (of lykelihoode) when Damasus was Pope. Howbeit, if he were too, and of a kinde …ffection to Rome, eLib. quaest. vet. & nou. testam. quaest. 115.where he liued, thought good to mention him: the wordes which he vseth in Latin, [cuius hodie rector est Damasus.] might meane that Damasus was [a ruler of the Church] not, as fThe Rhemists in the…r Annot. … 1. Tim. 3.15.you english it [the ruler.] Which to hauehave bene so, it appéereth farther by the word [at this day,] spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee: that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time, so at that present was Damasus ruler of it. Wherefore sith Timothee was g1. Tim. 1.3.placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order, not to rule the whole: Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church, in that he was 4Roman ecclesiae sacerdos.Bishop of the Church of Rome, as S. hEpist. ad Valē ti…ian. Impetat. contra Symmachum.Ambrose termeth him, though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal. S. Austin is the last o… them whose testimonies you cited▪ And, the preeminence of a higher roome, whereof iContra d…as ep…st. Pelag an…t. ad Bonifa…u… li… 1. c. ….he made mention to Boniface y^e first, importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others, not soueraintie of power. A prerogatiue of honour; according to the canon of kCan. 3.the first Councell of Constantinople: which 5foreign.gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome, 6foreign, as …he coun…l o… Chalced… i…erpreteth their fact, c…n. 2….because that citie raigned. Not soueraintie of power; as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike: where lEp. … Afric. ad Bonifacium, & C…lestinum.he denied that to the same Boniface, to whom hée graunted this preeminence. It was therefore only the dignitie of place, which S. Austin meant by the higher roome. As mCont. Iulian. P…lag…. l. 1. c. 4.else where, hauing named Cyprian, Olympius, and other auncient writers, he sayth that Innocentius was 7… tempore, prior loco.after them in time, before them in place: because they were Bishops of inferiour cities; and he of the Roman.

Hart.

Nay: but S. nEpist. 16….Austin sayth in plain termes, that the principalitie of the Apostolike *… Chapt. 7. Diui…. ….See had floorished in that Church still.

Rainoldes.

But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes, that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops, chiefly of the Apostolike Church: and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too. Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches (as I sayd) in honour, not in power. For in power, al others, at least the Apostolike, (that is, in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues) are made equall with it. But amongst all, in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith, the Roman for honour & credit had the chiefty. And thus hauehave I discharged my selfe of my promise: which was, that I would yeeld vntounto the Popes supremacie, if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers, alleaged and applied rightly. For none of all thē which you hauehave alleaged, neither of any other church, nor of the Roman it self, doth auouch it. Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of oMotiu. 14.Bristow may be séene: who, being not contented to say of all the Fathers, that they were Papists; addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it. The Lord, who is witnesse of our thoughtes, and spéeches, knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein. And for mine owne part, I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists: that I hauehave plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to hauehave bene. For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie. But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers. Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist. Wherefore, if you hauehave the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatiō, as you pretend, M. Hart: let, if not the Scriptures, yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie; and giuegive to eueryevery pastor and church their owne right, whereof Christ hath possessed them, and the Pope hath robbed them.

Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 8 · Floating text 1 – Floating text 5