Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 8 (2 of 2)
Hart.
I do not sée this, neither in S. Austin, nor in S. Cyprian.
Rainoldes.
I am the soryer that your sight serueth you no better. For the thing is so cléere that your owne cAnnota…. in epist. 74. ad Pompeium.Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition.
Hart.
Yet Pamelius addeth, that, if S. Cyprian had bene instructed better that the scriptures cited by him to proue his errour, are not of force thereto: S. Austin douteth not but he would hauehave allowed the contrary tradition.
Rainoldes.
That may well be. For he should hauehave found it proued by the scriptures, as S. dDe baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 1. cap. 7. & deincep… passim.Austin sheweth. But in the meane season you may sée by Pamelius, that Torrensis abused Cyprian, and Austin, in wresting that to his traditions.
Hart.
Not so. But his next place of eSermon. de temp. 191. qui est tertius de Trinita….Austin is more pregnant: Let the rule of the Church and the holy tradition and iudgement of the Fathers continue sure and sound for euer.
Rainoldes.
As pregnant as the former. For it foloweth straight: Now the faith of our Fathers is this; we beleeue in God the father almightie, maker of all things visible and inuisible, and so he goeth forward with the pointes of Christian faith. Wherby it is apparant that he meant by [the tradition of the Fathers] their faith. But their faith is writen (the substance of it) in the scriptures. Therefore your Iesuit faileth in this tradition too. Moreouer S. Austin, if he wrote that sermon, whereof your fIn Censu… generali To… 10. operum D. August.Louan censours dout, but he, who wrote that sermon, entreateth of the Trinitie. But touching the Trinitie nothing must be said beside the rule of faith, which is set downe in scriptures: as gChapt. 2. Diuision 2.I hauehave shewed by S. Austin. Wherefore if S. Austin had meant of vnwriten tradition in that point: S. Austin would retract it. But indeede the Iesuit hath ouerséene S. Austins workes very cunningly. Who, bearing men in hand that he hath gathered the summe of Austins doctrine out of all his workes, yet concealeth that hConfess. August. lib. 1. cap. 7.in the chapter of scriptures, which Austin saith of their sufficiencie: & faceth that out icap. 8.in the chapter of traditions, which should hauehave bene defaced by that which Austin saith of scriptures. Howbeit, were it true, that the scriptures without traditions are vnperfit and vnsufficient to proue the will of God: you are no néerer your purpose, that the proofe of it by Fathers is sufficient. For a testament, that is made by worde of mouth without writing, must be proued by solemne witnesses. The solemne witnesses of Christes testament, are the Prophets, and Apostles. So that vnlesse you proue by Prophets and Apostles, that part of the testament of Christ is vnwriten, & that hée gaue the Pope supremacie in that part: your proofe by the Fathers will neuer stand in law. Notwithstanding, though it bée against both law and reason, that the Pope should take the whole inheritaunce of Christes Church, and put all Bishops to their legacies, vnlesse he proue his right by the testament of Christ: yet, if you can proue it (as I said) by the Fathers, I am content to yéelde vntounto it.
Hart.
If I can proue it by the Fathers▪ I will bring them to witnesse for it. But when will you count it proued? Perhaps when I hauehave proued it, you will say I hauehave not.
Rainoldes.
And perhaps, when you hauehave not, you will say you hauehave.
Hart.
Who shall be iudge then? And how shall it bee tryed?
Rainoldes.
Optatus in the question of the Catholikes with the Donatists, whether one should be twise baptized: kLib. 5. conrr. …armenian. Donatist.you (saith he) say, it is lawfull: we say, it is not lawfull. Betweene your [it is lawfull,] & our [it is not lawfull,] the peoples souls do dout and wauer. Let none beleeue you, nor vsus: we are all contentious men. Iudges must be sought for. If Christians: they can not be giuen of both sides; for truth is hindred by affections. A iudge without must be sought for. If a Paynim: he can not know the Christian mysteries. If a Iewe: he is an enimie of Christian baptisme. No iudgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth: 1De caelo quae…endus est iudex.a iudge from heauen must be sought for. But why knocke we at heauen: when here we hauehave 2Testamentum.the testament of Christ in the gospell? So, by the opinion and reason of Optatus, you and we can hauehave no fit iudge in earth: God must iudge vsus by his word. But if the Pope will be tryed by God & the countrie: let him appéere at the assise; I will endite him of fe…ie for robbing Christians of their goods; and I will vse no witnesses to proue it but the Fathers.
Hart.
Nay, we may rather endite you for entring forcibly on his land, I meane on the supremacie, and wrongfully deteining it aboue these twentie yeares from him. Though (to say the truth) you are past enditement: you are condemned long ago.
Rainoldes.
By lPope Pius y• fifth in his Bul against the Queene of England.the Pope in his Consistorie. An easie matter where himselfe is plaintife, witnesse, and iudge.
Hart.
Him selfe is not alone iudge there: for he doth all thinges by the common verdict-
Rainoldes.
Of an enquest of Cardinals, with whom hee doth diuide his spoyles. And shall they be iudges, whether you doo proue the Popes supremacie or no?
Hart.
They are worthie Prelates, what count soeuer you make of them. But who shall iudge, if not they?
Rainoldes.
When an issue is ioyned to be tryed by the countrie, the iury, that shal try it, ought to be of such as be next neighbors, most sufficient, and ieast suspicious. This is the law of England. How doo you like your countrie law? hath it not reason?
Hart.
It hath. But this issue of ours must be tryed by the Church, not by the countrie.
Rainoldes.
I graunt. But the equitie of our countrie law doth hold in the Church too.
Hart.
Wil you be tryed then by the Catholike Bishops that are the Popes neighbours, of France, Spaine, and Italie, such as were at the Councell of Trent?
Rainoldes.
Fye: they are the most vnfit of all men to try any issue betwéene the Pope and vsus.
Hart.
Why so?
Rainoldes.
For many causes. They are not frée holders. They are the Popes tenants, his sworne vasals, our sworne enimies: mc. Ego N. extra. de i…reiurando.bound by oth to maintaine the Papacy. Are these most sufficient and least suspicious persons?
Hart.
They are most sufficient. But if your suspicions shall serue to chalenge them, you may chalenge any.
Rainoldes.
If you deny the causes, which I alleaged: I proue them. If I proue them all: there is no bench of Iustices in England, but will thinke my chalenge to be very lawfull.
Hart.
Then name your selfe the men whom you will admit to be of the iury.
Rainoldes.
Nay, I will name none. But I am indifferent to all who are indifferent: who hauehave skill to iudge of the euidence that is brought, and conscience to giuegive verdict according to the truth.
Hart.
According to the truth of the euidence, you meane. For so a iury ought. And so let all indifferent men be of the iury. For the wordes of the witnesses which I will bring shall be so full, so plaine in sense, so strong in proofe, that they must néedes condemne you: vnlesse they will giuegive verdict against the euidence and their consciences.
Rainoldes.
The crow doth thinke her own birdes fairest. But I must desire the iury to consider that the witnesses, whose wordes you will bring, are not aliue.
Hart.
Aliue? What is that to the tryall of our issue?
Rainoldes.
Much. For if they liued and did appeere before the iury, first, they should be sworne to say the truth, and al the truth, and nothing but the truth. Whereby they might bee moued both to speake more wa…ily, and to enforme the iury more throughly, then they hauehave doon. Next, it would be easier to examine them of their age, their estate, the circumstances of their persons; of their spéeches, the meaning, the occasion and cause thereof. Which all are helpes to finde out the truth of thinges in controuersie. Thirdly, if it appeered by examination, that either for their persons, or for their speeches, they are vnworthie of credit: then it should bee lawfull to except against them. A libertie, which nL. Testium fides. D. de Testibus.law doth graunt against witnesses, if there be cause of iust exception. Yet you perhaps (as your men are wont) would make outcrye, if I should vse it against them who are dead and absent. Wherefore vnlesse the iury doo supply that by wisedome and equitie, which wanteth in the course of tryall, by reason that the witnesses whom you will bring are not aliue: they may be deceyued by names and shewes of witnesses, and thereby giuegive a verdict which shall proue no verdict. For verdict is a speech of veritie.
Hart.
An honest mans worde is as good as his oth. For as he will not forsweare: so neither lye. The Fathers must not therefore be the lesse beleeued, because they are not sworne.
Rainoldes.
Yet an honest man, when he is sworne, wil speake more fully and maturely then when he is vnsworne. And hée may say that sometime on coniecture, which on his oth he would not say.
Hart.
But that may be perceyued by the Fathers writings, when they doo pronounce of a thing, as certaine; when, as vncertaine, they coniecture it. And so may other circumstances (which you require) be knowne too: as well as if them selues were present.
Rainoldes.
Not so well. For their writings doo not answere to many questions, which, if they were present, I woulde aske of them. But I am content with that which may be knowne so. Let the iury weigh it, and iudge thereafter of their credit.
Hart.
What? Shall meaner men, who be aliue now, iudge of the credit of the Fathers, who were so long in time, so farre in giftes before them?
Rainoldes.
Euagrius, a meane man, wrote vntounto S. Ierom, desiring his opinion concerning Melchisedec, whether he were the holy Ghost. S. oEpist. 126.2… Euagrium.Ierom, answering him, when hee had shewed the iudgements of the auncient writers Origen, Didymus, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Eusebius Caesariensis, and Emisesenus, Apollinarius, Eustathius, and the best learned Iewes, of whom some thought Melchisedec, an angel; some, a man: you hauehave (saith he) what I hauehave heard, what I hauehave read touching Melchisedec. *Meum fuit recitare testes: tu um sit de fide testium iudicare.To bring forth the witnesses, it was my part: let it be yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses. It séemed reason to S. Ierom that Euagrius should iudge of of the witnesses whom he brought. What is there more in the Fathers, then was in those witnesses? What was there more in Euagrius, then is in many who liue now?
Hart.
But you perhaps will cauil, either at the persons, or at the spéeches of the Fathers, The second Diuision.and thinke that eueryevery toy is a sufficient reason, why men should not beléeue them.
Rainoldes.
Whether the exceptions, that I shall take against any, be cauils and toyes: let the iury iudge. Nay, I durst say almost, let mine aduersarie iudge. For what thinke you you… self, if one alleage for scripture that which is not scripture: may not that autoritie be iustly refused? As if, for example, a man should write that Christ said to his disciples, that which I say to one of you, I say to all.
Hart.
In deed M. pIn the defense of the Apolog. part. 2.Iewell alleaged that for scripture, to proue that the wordes of Christ vntounto Peter, feede my sheepe, feede my lambes, were spoken n ot to him onelyonly but to the rest of the Apostles. Wherein he was iustly reproued by D. qIn his Detection lib. 3.Harding. For Christ did not say, what I say to one, that I say to all: but, rMar. 13.37.what I say to you, (meaning, the Apostles,) that I say to all (Christians,) watch. So good is our cause, that M. Iewell could not make shew of truth against it, but by foule corruption and falsifiing of the scriptures.
Rainoldes.
I pray be good to M. Iewell for M. Optatus and Fulgentius sake: who Optat▪ contr. Parmen. lib. 1. Fulgent. ad Trasimundum Reg. lib. 1.both hauehave missealleaged the same words of Christ, yea one of them in like sort, as Bishop Iewell did. For, to proue that the words of the Lord to Esay, tEsai. 58.1.Cry and cease not, were spoken not to Esay onelyonly, but to all preachers, he vseth this reason, that Christ doth say to his disciples, what I say to one of you, I say to all. Wherin, as the doctrine of a preachers duty is true, though the proofe be false: so is in Bishop Iewell the doctrine of the Apostles duety. And Bishop Iewels proofe, from one Apostle vntounto all, is better grounded on the wordes, then the other from Esay the Prophet to all preachers. Moreouer the faulte remaineth vncorrected in …ulgentius and Optatus: Bishop Iewell hath corrected it. Wherefore if you condemne him of fouly corrupting and falsifying the scripture, because he missealleaged that sentence of Christ: what iudgement will you giuegive of Fulgentius and Optatus?
Hart.
Nay, it is likely that they ouersaw it by a slippe of memorie.
Rainoldes.
The same would you iudge of M. Iewel, if some what did not blinde your eye. But by this your iudgement I see, that where the Fathers mistake the wordes of scripture, they may be refused. What if they mistake, not the wordes but the sense: may we refuse them also there? As uIn dialog. cum. Tryphon. Iud.Iustin the Martyr, xHieron. comment. in Esai. l. 18. in praefat.Irenaeus, yEuseb. hist. …cclesiast. lib. 3. cap. 36.Papias, zDe spe fidelium: vt citatur▪ ab Hieronymo.Tertullian, aHieron. de scriptor. ecclesiast. in verbo Papias.Victorinus, bDiuina…. institut. l. 7. c. 23.Lactantius, cHieron. comment. in Esai. lib. 18. in praefat.Apollinarius, dHieron. comment. in Ezech. lib. 11.Seuerus, and eEuseb. hist. eccles. lib. 7. cap. 23.Nepos, in that they thought that Christians after the resurrection should raigne a thousand yeares with Christ vponupon the earth, in a golden Ierusalem, and there should mary wiues, beget children, eate, drinke, & liue in corporall delites. Which errour, though repugnant flatly to f1. Thess. 4.17. Matt. 22.30.the scriptures, yet they fell into; partly, by confounding gReu. 20.5.the first and second resurrection: partly, by taking hRe…. 21.10. & 22.2.that carnally, which was mystically meant in the Reuelation.
Hart.
That was the heresie of the Millenaries, as they are called. Howbeit in the Fathers, though it were an errour, yet it was no heresie.
Rainoldes.
I doo not say it was an heresie. I say that they mistooke the meaning of the scripture: which you can not denie. Yea some times, when they neither mistooke the words, nor the meaning, yet they taught amisse out of it. As, that iExod. 20.1….God created the world in six dayes, they vnderstood it rightly. But to conclude thereof that the world should last but sixe thousand yeares, because k2. Petr. 3.8.one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeares, & a thousand yeares as one day: this was an ouersight. For if that were true, which they did gather of those wordes: then might we know lAct. 1.7.the times, whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them. And vponupon this reason S. mIn e…arrat. Psalm. 89. & de ciuit. Dei lib. 1…. cap. 53.Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares, as rash and presumptuous.
Hart.
So doo we also. For nIn Dubitantio. Dialog. 2.Lindan and oDe vit. sect. & dogmat. haeret. lib. 9. tit. Iudaeorum haereses.Prateolus doo note it, in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles, as a Iewish heresie.
Rainoldes.
Good reason, when Luther and Melanchthon write it. But when pAduers. haeres. lib. 5. cap. 23.Irenaeus, qDiuinar. institut. lib. 7. c. 14.Hilarie, rIn Mattha…um can…ne 17.Lactantius, and sHieron. epist. 139. ad C… p…ian Iustin, Mart. responsion. ad Orthod. quaestion. 71.other Fathers write it: what doo they note it then?
Hart.
Suppose it were an ouersight. But what néedes all this? As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures.
Rainoldes.
I hauehave cause to dout it. For though there be no man lightly so profane, as to professe that he will doo so: yet (such is the blindnes o… mens deuotion to Saintes) there hauehave béene heretofore who hauehave so done, and are still. There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin: that, when the time of her death approched, the Apostles (then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell) were taken vp in cloudes, and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall. This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito, *Euseb. histor. ec…les. l. 4. c. 13. & 25.an auncient learned Bishop of Asia: though he wrote it not be like. But whosoeuer wrote it, he wrote a lye, (saith tRetractat. in Act. Apost. c. 8.Bede,) because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles. Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale, he saith, that he reherseth these thinges, because he knoweth, that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie. So you sée there hauehave béene who hauehave beléeued a Father (yea perhaps a rascall, not a Father) against the scriptures. And that there are such still, I sée by our countrymen, uIn their Annotations vponupon the Acts of the Apostles. 1.14.your diuines of Rhemes: who vouch the same fable, vponupon greater credit of Fathers then the other, but with no greater truth.
Hart.
Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie, a fable? What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord, that excellent vessell of grace? whom xLuk. 1.41.all generations ought to call, blessed. But you can not abide her prayses and honours. Nay, you hauehave abolished not onelyonly her greatest feast of her assumption, but of her conception and natiuitie too. So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman, whose seede brake his head.
Rainoldes.
It may be thought that yIude vers. 9.the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses, (zDeut. 34.6. whom the Lord buried, the Iewes knew not where,) did striue aNicol. Lir. in Deuter. 34. & epistolum Iudae.that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes, to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie. But it is out of doubt, that when he moued bAct. 14.11.the people of Lystra to sacrifice vntounto Paul and Barnabas, and to call them Gods, he meant to deface the glory of God, by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes. We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule: but not to hauehave them called Gods. We can abide their honours; but not to sacrifice vntounto them. Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed. But whether he doth wreake it more vponupon the séede, by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to ye woman, or by our not sacrificing: let cExod. 22.20. Matt. 4.…0. Col. 2.18. Reuel. 19.10. & 22.9.them define d2. Cor. 2.11.who know his policies. The Christians of old time eTertullian. in Apologet. Euseb. hist. eccl. l. 4. c 13.were charged with impietie, because they had no Gods but one. This is our impietie. For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures, but creatures: fConfess. Hel…t. cap. 5. Confess. Bohem. Augustan. Saxoni. &c. in Harmonia confes…ionum fidei. Section. 2.we doo gladly giuegive it. We thinke of them all, and namely of the blessed virgin, reuerently & honourably. We desire our selues, and wish others, to folow her godly faith and vertuous life. We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace. We call her (as the scripture teacheth vsus) gLuk. 1.28.blessed: yea the most blessed of all women. But you would hauehave her to be named and thought not onelyonly blessed her selfe, but also a giuer of blessednesse to others; not a vessell, but a fountaine, or (as you entitle her) hMaria mater gratiae, mater misericordiae:a mother of grace and mercy. And in your solemne prayers you doo her iTu nos ab hoste protege, & hora mortis suscipe. Offic. B. Mariae uirg resor. mat. & edit. a Pio quint.that honour, which kPsal. 31.5. Act. 7.59. Psal. 50.15. Luk. 11.4.is onelyonly due to our creator and redeemer. For you call on her to defend you from the enimie, and receiue you in the houre of death. Thus, although in semblance of wordes you deny it, yet in déede you make her equall to Christ: lAntonin. in s…ma pa…t. 4. Tit. 15. cap. 44. Chassanaeus in catalogo gloriae mundi, part. 3. consid. 4.as him our Lord, so her our 1Domina.Ladie: as him our God, so her our 2Dea.Goddesse: as him our King, so her our 3Regina.Queene: as him our mediator, so her our 4Mediatrix.mediatresse: as him in all thinges tempted like vsus, sinne excepted, so her 5Immunis ab omni corruptione peccati.deuoide of all sinne: as him the onelyonly name whereby we must be saued, so her our 6Vita,life, our 7Dulcedo,ioy, our 8Spes nostra salue.hope, a very mother of orphans, an aide to the oppressed, a medicine to the diseased, and (to be short) 9Omnibus es omnia.all to all. Which impious worship of a Sainte because you hauehave aduanced by keping holy dayes vntounto her, the feastes of her conception, natiuitie, & assumption; therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly. For the vse of holy dayes, is, not to worship Saintes, but to worship God, the sanctifier of Saintes. As mLeuit. 23.24. Neh. 8. vers. 2.6.8. & 18. Act. 20.7. 1. Cor. 16.2. Reu. 1.10.the Lorde ordeined them, that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde.
Hart.
Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles, Euangelists, & other Saintes, and not abolish them also? As some of your reformed, or rather your deformed Churches, hauehave doon?
Rainoldes.
Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight, who nIoh. 4.23.requireth men to worship him in spirite & truth: though you, besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues, doo scorne at their simplenesse, as o2. Sam. 6.20.the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland, Flanders, France, and pConfess. Heluetica, cap. 24. cui subscripserunt ecclesiae Sabaudicae, Polonicae. Hungaricae, Scoticae, Gallicae, & Belgicae. In harmomonia confessionum fidei.others, allow not holy dayes of Saintes, because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God. Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes. Wherefore,qIn their obseruatiōs vpō ye Harmonie of cōfessiōs. Section. 16▪ ad …ohemicam, obseruat. … although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes, we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes: yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onelyonly, to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vsus by the ministerie of his Saintes. And so hauehave qIn their obseruations vponupon the Harmony of confessio…s. Section 16. ad Bohemicam▪ obser…. ….the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning, in that they hauehave noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant, so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes, though in an other sorte, nay in a cleane contrarie, then the Papists doo.
Hart.
But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte, why not of her also, of whom our Sauiour tooke flesh, and was brought foorth into the world?
Rainoldes.
So we doo: the feastes of the annuntiation of the blessed virgin, and the purification.
Hart.
Nay, the dayes of other Saintes, which you celebrate, as namely of Peter, Paul, and Iohn, are the dayes of their death, and so are proper vntounto them. Wherefore you should of reason at the least celebrate our ladies assumption, as the day of her death. For though you beléeue not that her bodie is assumpted, yet you wil not (we trow) deny that she is dead, and her soule in glory. But you doo neither celebrate that, nor any other of her proper feastes. For as for the dayes of her purification and annuntiation, they be not proper to our Ladie: but the one to Christes conception, the other to his presentation. So that she by this meanes shall hauehave no festiuitie at all.
Rainoldes.
No festiuitie at all? What a foolish fansie is this of your rIn their Annot. vponupon the Act. 1.14.Rhemists? As though the blessed virgin were like to *Ouid. Metamorphos. lib. 8. Superos perue…it ad omnes Ambitiosus honor. Solas sin… thure relictas Praeteritas cessasse …erunt La…oidos aras Tangit & iraDeos.Diana, and the Saintes of Christ to the Paynim-gods: who euerie one must hauehave his feast, and if you forget or passe ouer any, their honour is attainted in it. But by this sentence you iustifie the reformed Churches: both the rest, and ours. The rest, in that you thinke the holy dayes of Saintes are instituted to their honour: which corrupt opinion, and superstition growing of it, might be a sufficient cause to abolish them. Ours, in that you say that the annuntiation and purification of the virgin are not proper to our Ladie (as you cal her,) but to Christ. Wherein you acknowledge, that the holy dayes of Saintes which we keepe, are kept to Christes honour, and not to theirs. For as the annuntiation of the blessed virgin is proper vntounto sLuk. 1.31.Christ conceiued, and the purification to tLuk. 2.22.Christ presented in the temple: so the day of Peter is proper vntounto uMatt. 16.16.Christ professed, the day of Paul to xAct. 9.20.Christ preached, the day of Iohn to yIoh. 21.24.Christ published by the writing of the Gospell. And this of them is as cléere, as is the other of the virgin, by zThe collects, epistles, & Gospels (as they are termed) in the booke of common praier▪the prayers which we make, and the partes of scripture which wee reade on those dayes. Wherefore although we celebrate the memorie of these thinges touching the Apostles, on those daies on which they dyed, perhaps, (for neither are you sure of that, though you celebrate them in memorie of their death:) yet we do it not in respect of their death so to honour their assumption, but in respect of those thinges which Christ did by them while they liued. And by the same reason you may proue that we keepe no holy day to any Saint, by the which you gather …hat the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper vntounto her. Which in deed you say, not because you thinke it, or hauehave cause to thinke it: but to make vsus odious, by bearing men in hand that we despise the blessed virgin. For both your selues doo count them and call them aFesta Sanctae Mariae: Purificationis, Annuntiationis, Visitationis, Assumptionis, Natiuitatis, Conceptionis: & S. Mariae ad Niues. Missale Romanum in ordinario Missae.her feastes, as well as anie other of those that beare her name: and the common people, when they cal the annuntiation day, our Ladie day, (by your corrupt custome,) thinke it as proper vntounto her, as S. Peters is to him: and bConfes…io Heluetica cap. 24. Sect. 16. in Harmon. Confess. fid.the reformed Churches, which disallow the feastes of Saintes, hauehave disallowe… these amongst them, where yet they allow the feastes that doo belong to Christ, his natiuitie, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the holy Ghost.
Hart.
But if your reformed Churches thinke it dangerous to kéepe anie feast of the blessed virgin: why doo you retaine two of them in your Church, and not the rest as we doo.
Rainoldes.
You may learne the reason hereof in your Portesse, reformed lately by the Pope. In your olde cPortiforium seu breuiarium, ad vsum ecclesiae Sarum: in festo S. Thomae Can…ariensis.Portesse there was this prayer to the Popes martyr, S. Thomas Becket of Canterbury: