Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 9
The ninth Chapter. 1 The Church is the piller & ground of the truth. The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell, 2 the Councell of Nice, 3 of Antioche, of Sardica, of Constantinople, Mileuis, Carthage, Afrike, 4 of Ephesus, of Chalcedon, of Constantinople est soones, and of Nice, of Constance, and of Basill; with the iudgements of Vniuersities, and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome: condemning all the Popes supremacie.
HART.
The first Diuisiō.The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike. Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie. For a1. Tim. 3.15.the Church is the piller and ground of the truth.
Rainoldes.
The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, in office, and dutie: and bMal. 2. ver. 7.the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes. But as cver. 8.there were Priestes, who did not their message in shewing Gods will: so there may be Churches, which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth.
Hart.
Nay, that is true still, which the Church teacheth. For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller & ground of the truth, but that it is so.
Rainoldes.
Neither doth Malachie say, that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes, but that hée is so. And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that? and to whom?
Hart.
To Timothee: that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God, which is the Church of the liuing God.
Rainoldes.
The Church then, which Timothee was conuersant in, and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof, is called (by S. Paule) the piller and grounde of the truth.
Hart.
It is: and what then?
Rainoldes.
But d1. Tim. 1.3.the Church which Timothee was conuersant in, was the Church of Ephesus. The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth. Now eConcil. Flor. Session. vlt. Laon. Chalcocondylas de rebus Turc. lib. 6.the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie: nor only that Church, but other of the East too. Wherefore, if that be true still which the Church teacheth, because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth: the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked, and Papistrie is heresie.
Hart.
The Churches of the East hauehave erred therein. But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine. And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it, vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other.
Rainoldes.
That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers. For, except the crew of the Italian faction, who hauehave aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him, all Christian Churches hauehave condemned his vsurped soueraintie, and do till this day.
Hart.
All Christian Churches? who did euer say so before you? or what one witnesse hauehave you of it?
Rainoldes.
The Pastors and Doctours, in Synodes and Councels, wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment, ech in their seuerall ages. For, to begin with the ancientst, and so come downe to our owne: it was (in fEp. 55. ad Cornelium.Cyprians tyme) 1Statutum est omnibus nobis,ordeined by them al that eueryevery mans cause should be heard there, where the fault was committed.
Hart.
That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes, not the last. For they might be heard at Rome vpō appeales, if, being heard at home first, the parties were not satisfied.
Rainoldes.
The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian, 2Iam causa eo…rum cognita cit.was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike, who excommunicated them. Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome. Wherefore the ordinaunce, that he groundeth on, did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first, last, and all; against such as appealed (if you so tearme it) to Rome. Which he maketh plainer yet, in that he calleth 3Sciunt quo r… uertantur.those Rome-appealers home, if vponupon repentaunce they séeke to be restored; and sayth, that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may hauehave accusers and witnesses of their fault, and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike: 4…isi paucis desperatis & perciti …uinor videtur ….vnlesse a few lewde & desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to hauehave lesse autoritie, by whom they were iudged alreadie, and condemned.
Hart.
When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie: you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome, but with the Bishops of Fraunce, Spaine, Greece or Asia, and chiefly of Num…dia.
Rainoldes.
You were better say, as gThe Discouerer …a Iesuit doth, that Cyprian hath no such thing: then *It is Sanders answere, De vi … lib. ….answer so absurdly. For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such, as the parties, whom they▪ had cōdemned, did run to for remedie. And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome. It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike, Italie, and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes.
Hart.
Why doth S. hLib. … epist. 3. ad Step … Epi…t. 67. Pa….Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian, a Nouatian heretike, Bishop of Arle in Fraunce: and to substitute an other in his roome, a Catholike?
Rainoldes.
Nay, iStaplet. p…n…. doctrin. l. 6. c. 17 …he discou. of …. 3.why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so, whereas he doth not? For he desireth Stephen to write 5Ad coepiscopos no…ros in Ga…s.to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him: and 6E…p ouinciam & ad p…ebem … rel…ate cond…entem.to the prouince and people of Arle, to choose a new. Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie. Who neither could depose Bishops at that time; as also kDe reforma…. eccle. consid. 3.the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth, misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them, which then a Synode did: neither, when a Bishop was orderly deposed, could he create an other; but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him. Yea, a Bishop chosen by them, was lawfull Bishop, though the Pope confirmed him not; yea, though he disallowed him: as it is declared by a lEpist. Synod. African. ad cler. & pleb in Hispan. Cyprian. Ep. 68.Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen. Wherefore mEpist. 67. ad Stephanum.Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop: but ought to giuegive his neighbours counsell to doe it, for 7Ide…rco …aim …p…osum corpu… est s…cer…otum, concor…iae … glut…no a…que vnitatis vinculo c…pulas tum, vt si quis ex collegio nostro … facere, & greg…m Chri…e … & … bueniant cateri, quasi pa…ores vtiles & misericordes, quioue. Domigicas in gregem colligant.the common dutie that eueryevery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ, to helpe them when they are in daunger. And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging, deposing, & creating Bishops, nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes, as I shewed: it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of ye Pope; or, to say it with the wordes of nAen. Siluius Card. ep. 288.Cardinal Siluius, Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe, and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome.
Hart.
Yet there was a Counc…l oBella…min. …. …om. controuer. 4. quaest. 5.holden at Sinuessa (pSigon. de occident. imper. lib. 1. or Suessa, as some say) before the Councel of Nice. And there, qMarcellini Papae condemna…o▪ Tom. 1. Cancilior.whē Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vntounto idols: the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man. Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie.
Rainoldes.
That Councell is a counterfeit. As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian the Emperour did talke at Rome with Marcellinus, and brought him to idolatrie. Whereas rAs Sigonius sheweth: de occident. imperio. lib. 1.Diocletian was then at Nicomedia, about a thousand myles off. Besides that, Diocletians warre agaynst the Persians was ended certaine yeares before the time of that Councell. Yet the Councell sayth that Diocletian, being in that warre, heard of it. There is an other Councell of the same stampe, holden vnderunder Pope Siluester at Rome, sSynod. Roma. sub Siluest. Pap. act. 1. cap. 1.about the time that Constantine was clensed of his lepros…e: tPlatin de vi…. …otit. in Marco. … chronogr. volum. 2, generat. 11. Viues de caul, corrupt. a…. lib. 2. A…at. parerg. iur. lib. 7. ca. 19.that is to say, neuer. Amongst the canons whereof, (uSynod. …om. sub. …iluest. …ap. act. 2. those which begin with *That is to say, For no mā, with ye which worces almost all the canons of the secon… action beginne, most ….Nemo enim,) there is one xNemo enim dii… dicet primam sedem. cap. 20Nemo enim to that effect, that yours of Sinuessa. But what the true Bishops of the primitiue church thought of iudging him, they shewed by their iudgement of his fellow at Antioche, Paulus Samosatenus: yEuseb. histor. eccles. lib. 7. cap. 28. & 29.whom the Bishops and Elders of his own prouince did excommunicate and depose; agaynst your Councels lye, that zNemo vnquam iudicauit Pontificem, nec prae…l sacerdotem suum.No man euer iudged his bishop. Wherefore to returne to the primitiue Churches ordinances and rules from these deuises Papall of Councels neuer holden: the first generall Councell assembled at Nice did keepe the Pope vnderunder in his former state. For they ordeined that aConcil. Niscaen. can. 4.Bishops should be made by Bishops of their own prouince, requiring no consent of his therevnto: neither did they giuegive the hearing and determining of causes vntounto him, but bcan. 5.vntounto the Bishops of the prouince too;The secōd Diuision. commaunding the ancient canon to be kept, that none should receiue them to the communion who were excommunicated and condemned by others.
Hart.
True: if they were iustly condemned and excommunicate. But if their owne Bishop had dealt vniustly with them vponupon some displeasure, and remoued them from the communion wrongfully; which you cannot denie but that he might do: then reason requireth that they should hauehave remedie. Now the remedie thereof is by appeale to the Pope.
Rainoldes.
This remedie was deuised by new Physicians, that lacked worke: it increaseth diseases. The Nicen Physicians foreséeing the danger, prouided an other and better remedy for them.
Hart.
Better? what is that?
Rainoldes.
The cause to be heard in a Synode of Bishops, so to be decided by their common iudgement. For let it be examined (say they) whether the Bishop hauehave excommunicated them vponupon a way wardnesse, or grudge, or too much rigour. Whereof that there may bee due examination, we hauehave thought good that in eueryevery prouince two synods should be kept yerely: to the intent, that in common (all Bishops of the prouince being gathered together) such thinges may be examined. And so, whosoeuer shall be found in fault, and to hauehave bene dealt with iustly by the Bishop: lett them bee holden of all for excommunicate; till it shall seeme good to the Synode of Bishops to giuegive more gentle sentence of them.
Hart.
I grant, the Councell of Nice doth bring matters first from the Bishop to the Synode. But if the Synode also doe giuegive vniust sentence: then is the Pope left for the last refuge.
Rainoldes.
The Councell meant not so: but that the last refuge should be the Synode still. For they doe not say, till it shall seeme good to the Bishop of Rome, but, to the Synode of Bishops, to geue more gentle sentence of them. Yea, euen the particular honour and preeminence of his, which they mention, is a plaine token that they dreamed not of such a generall power. For it followeth straight in cCan. 6.the next canon, Let old customes be kept, they that are in Egypt, and Lybia, and Pentapolis, that the Bishop of Alexandria hauehave the preeminence of all these: because such is the custome of the Bishop of Rome too. Likewise also in Antioche, and in other prouinces, let the Churches enioy their dignities and prerogatiues. Which wordes of the Councell grounding on the custome of the Bishop of Rome, that as he had preeminence of all the Bishops about him, so Alexandria and Antioche should hauehave of all about thē, and likewise other churches, (as the Metropolitan,) ech in their owne prouinces: doe shew, that the Pope neither had preeminence of all through the world before the Nicen Councell, nor ought to hauehave greater preeminence (by their iudgement) then he before time had.
Hart.
Nay, the Councell did not limit the preeminence and power of the Church of Rome by those wordes: but they followed rather it as a paterne, in aduancing others. For the Nicen Councell, (sayth dEpist. ad Michael. Imperatorem. Concilior. Tom. 3. Sur.Nicolas the first) durst not make any decree of that Church: as knowing that nothing could be giuen her aboue her desert; yea, that she had al things by the grant of Christ. And if the Councels canons bee diligently marked, you shall find doubtlesse, that they gaue no increase to the church of Rome: but rather tooke example of the forme therof for that which they would geue to the church of Alexandria.
Rainoldes.
Pope Nicolas, endeuoring to proue his supremacie by recordes of Councels, some impudently forged, as the Councell of Sinuessa; some lewdly misexpounded, as *Can. 9. In the which, Nicolas saith the Pope is m…ant. and none but the Pope, …y primas dia ce…os …. whereas in very truth the Councell meant eueryevery Patriarke thereby, as I hauehave shewed, Chapt. 8. Diuision 5.the Councell of Chalcedon: not knowing what to say well of the Councel of Nice, doth shape this answere to it, for lack of a better. But as a dronken man that hath a giddie head, entēding to go one way sometimes, doth reele an other: so fareth it with him. For, in saying that they tooke example of the forme of the Churche of Rome for that which they would giuegive to the Church of Alexandria: he granteth that as the Bishop of Alexandria had but the preeminence of all thereabout, no more had the Bishop of Rome. And séeing that example is allowed therein, and made a paterne of the rest: it followeth that the Councell thereby did decrée that the Bishop of Rome should kéepe within those limits. Which to be the purport of that Nicen canon: not onelyonly singular autors, eHist. eccle. lib. 1. cap. 6.Rufinus, and fDe concord. cathol. l. 2. c. 13.Cusanus, but a gSynod. actau. gener. Constan…. can. 17.generall Councell also hath declared. In déede the very sticking of your own men in it, like byrdes in the lyme, may shew that in the sight of sense and common reason it maketh directly against the Popes supremacie. For hDistinct 65. c… mos antiq…us.Gratian hauing set it downe, as he found it, Let the old custome hold in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis, that the bishop of Alexandria hauehave rule of all these; 1Quando quidē & …omano … piscopo parilis ….because the Bishop of Rome too hath the like custome: the glose on him expoundeth it, lyke, Id …, si nilis in q…o a…dam, quo …am vterque deponitepisc…s.that is, like in some things, because they both depose Bishops; 3Vel dic, Romano, id est, Constantinopolitano.or say, the Bishop of Rome, that is, of Cōstātinople. Of which expositions, the former being dangerous, that any may depose Bishops, beside the Pope: a glose vponupon that glose alloweth the later of Constantinople, & sayth it is 4Me…ius & planius secundum Hug.the better in the iudgement of Hue. But Hue was deceaued. For though Constantinople were called new Rome within a few yeares after: yet iSigon. de occi. Imper. lib. 3. & 4.nether was it called Rome, nor Constantinople, at the time that ye canon, wherof we speake, was made. kIn summa Conciliorum.Carranza therfore helpeth it wt an old edition, shewed him by a Cardinal: which in stéede of these words, the Bishop of Rome, had, 5Metropolita… episcopo.the Metropolitā. And this would serue fitly to take away the scruple (as lCarranz. annot. in 6. can. Conc. Ni…aen.hée sayth it doth) of them who hauehave thought that the Bishop of Rome is made equall with other Metropolitans by that canon. But because it goeth against the consent of mIn Concil. Chalced. act. 16.most ancient copies of the Popes owne and others, nD…en. sid. Trident. l. 2.Andradius reproueth it: and, kéeping the name of the Bishop of Rome, sayth, that by his custome, his iudgement is meant. A hard interpretation, and flat against the text: which, authorising and approuing the custome of the Bishop of Alexandria, because the Bishop of Rome hath 5foreign.that custome too, doth ground them both vponupon 6foreign,&foreignold customes, not one vponupon the others iudgement. Wherefore oBellarmin. in praelect. Rom. contr. 4. quae…t. 5. The abridgement of controuersies, Controu. 3. quaest. 4.the Iesuites (the perfiters of Poperie) hauehave concluded now, that the beginning of the canon wanteth: what? this, 8Ecclesia Romana semper habuit primatū.The Church of Rome hath still had the primacie.
Hart.
And good reason why. For it is cited so in the pAction. 16.Councell of Chalcedon.
Rainoldes.
So they say: but falsely. And that with a pretie shift of legi…rdemaine. For whereas Paschasinus (the Popes Legate there) bringing forth that canon to the Popes behoofe, had set this title ouer it, [9Quod ecclesia Romana semper …abuit primatū. That the Church of Rome hath still had the primacie:] the Iesuites suppressing quite the word [That] doe alleage the rest as a part of the canon.
Hart.
Perhaps they thought the word [That] to be superfluous.
Rainoldes.
They might hauehave thought the whole title to be so, if they had marked that which followeth in the Councel. For the same canon being recited straight out of an other copie by Constantine the Secretarie, hath no word therof. But to leaue the dealing of the Popes legate with the beginning of the canon: the Iesuites cannot scape out of the midst of it, no more then their complices. For the Roman reader is entangled in it as fast as Pope Nicolas, whose forme he relieth on. The *A booke so entitled, touching the controuersies of our time: compiled by Robert Persons, out of the Dictates of the Iesuites, for ou… English Students, and vsed to be writen out by the hearers thereof in the seminaries. Wherin (because such libels goe in writing only among their owne Nouices,) they co… and lie more boldly the… commonly they dare in print. As any man that hath it, if he compare their tractate of the Popes supremacie with this our con…erence, shall perceaue.abridgement of cōtrouersies doth lie by his side too, with brauer shew, but lesser strength.
Hart.
Whether that title were added to the canon by the Popes Legate, or were a part thereof, it maketh no matter. The primacie named in it was giuen to the Pope by the Councel of Nice. For though in the common volumes of Councels there be but twentie canons of theirs extant now: yet they made fourescore. By many of the which the Pope is autorised to iudge all greater causes, as qRescript. Iul. Pap. contra Orient. Concil. Tom. 1.Iulius declareth. Yea, the fourescore canons whole were found of late at Alexandria in the Arabian toung: and turned into Latin out of the Arabian by a learned Iesuite. Therein are Patriarkes sayd to rule all their subiectes, as the Pope is head of all Patriarkes, like Peter: to whom all power is geuen ouer all Christian Princes, and ouer all their peoples, as being Christs vicar ouer all nations of the earth.
Rainoldes.
That of Pope rConcil. Nicen. edit. ab Alfonso Pisano, can. 39.Iulius I hauehave alreadie shewed to be a bastard ympe. The canons cited in it, are …att after kinde. tAnnot. in Dist. 16. c. septuaginta.Contius, your lawyer, sayth sChapt. 8. Diuis. 6.that their bastardie is proued euen by this, that no man, no not Gratian himselfe durst alleage them. No dout, if the Pope had layde them vp 1In sacro nostrae ecclesiae sedis scrinio.so, as the counterfeite Iulius 2Testis est diuinitas.sweareth that he did: Pope Zosimus, and the rest, uIn Concil. Carthag. 6. & African.who made such adde with the Bishops of Afrike about the Nicen Councell, would hauehave found and shewed them. But the Arabian canons which the Iesuite brought from Alexādria, may suffice to giuegive or take a deaths wound of them. For those which Iulius citeth, are not in the Arabian. That which the Arabian hath, is not in Iulius.
Hart.
Though Iulius cite not that of the Popes supremacie, which the Arabian hath: yet might it be true. And certes the credit of the Arabian copie must néedes be very great. Chi…fly sith it agréeth in the perfit number of the Nicen canons. For they were fourescore: as xEpist. Aegypt. episcopor. ad Mar…um Pap. Con…rom. 1.Athanasius writeth. Who sent to Pope Marcus for the full copies of them, when the Arians had burnt them at Alexandria.
Rainoldes.
And yRescript. Mar…i P…p. Athanasi… & omnibus Aegypt. episcop.Pope Marcus sent thē him. Whereby is disclosed the forgerie of both their writinges. For the bookes which the Arians burnt at Alexandria, were burnt in the time of Constantius the Emperour: as appéereth by the complaint of the right zEpist. ad orthodoxos i… pe…equ…t.Athanasius, being driuen out thence. Now Marcus the Pope was dead about an eyght or nine yeares before, in the time of Constantine: as aIn Chronico.Ierom recordeth.
Hart.
But other Fathers speake of sundrie thinges decréed by the Nicen Councell, (as you may sée in bAlan. Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 7.Cope,) whereof there is no mention in the twentie canons that are extant now.
Rainoldes.
Neither in the fourescore canons of the Arabian. Wherefore if the sundrie thinges, which they speake of, doe proue all sundrie canons: the Arabian canon, which ccap. 12.Harpsfields Cope alleageth for the Popes supremacie, may chaunce to proue a counterfeit. Nay, it must proue so, because it is a canon: if you beléeue the Fathers. For they had only twentie: euen the same that we hauehave. S dConc. Cart. 6. & Africanum.Austin and aboue two hundred Bishops of Afrike acknowledged no mo. eConc. Catthag. 6. c. 9.Caecilian, the Bishop of Carthage brought no mo from the Councel it selfe, whereat he was present. S. fConc. African. c. 102.Cyril the Bishop of Alexandria, & gc. 103.Atticus the Bishop of Constantinople, affirme there were no mo. hHist. eccle. l. 1. c. 6. Though he recken two & twentie▪ by diuiding some of them as can. 6. & 3.Rufinus, who hath registred them in his storie, deliuereth no mo. Finally, S. iIn princip. Concilior. de s…nodis princip.Isidore, a curious sercher of them, sayth, they were iust so many. As for other Fathers, if they shewe any thing to hauehave bene decréed by the Nicen Councell, which is not in these canōs, as kCo…c. Antioch. can. 1. Theod…ret. hist. eccles. l. 1 c. 9.they doe certaine: the lCanones & decre…a Concil. Trid…ti…i.canons & decrees of the councel of Trent may teach you that some things might be decreed besides, and yet the canons be but twentie.
Hart.
What say you then to that which Zosimus alleaged in mConc. Carthag. 6 c. 3.the Councell of Carthage, touching appeales of Bishops to the Bishop of Rome? For that is called a canon of the Nicen Councel, and not a decree.
Rainoldes.
I say, that it was neither decree nor canon of it: as nEpist. Concil. Africa 1. ad Boni…ac. & Caelest. c. 101. & 105.the Bishops of Afrike answered, and prooued. Yea oBellarmin. in praelect Rom. Contr. 4. q. 5.the Roman reader, the chiefe of your Iesuites, is of the same opinion: adding that he thinketh that Zosimus did call it a canon of the Nicen Councell, because it is a canon of the Councell of Sardica, and those two Councels were esteemed as one, and bound vp together in the Popes library. Wherefore sith the Councell of Nice made no canons but the common twentie, and they speake against the supremacie of the Pope, euen by pConcil. Nic…e. edit. ab Al…on. Pisan. can. 8.the Arabians owne interpretation: whatsoeuer eyther Arabian or Roman hath coyned to the contrarie, that must néedes bée counterfeit;The third Diuision. and the Pope is guiltie of theft and oppression by verdit of that famous Councell. Whereto the Councell of Antioche doth ioyne their verdit too. For they say, as the Nicen, not onelyonly concerning qConc. Antioch. can. 19.the making of Bishops, but also rcan. 6. & 12. & 20.the determining of causes of the Church. In so much, that scan. 14.if a Bishop being accused, the Bishops of the prouince agree not about him, some iudging with him, some against: yet referre they not the matter to the Pope, but will the Metropolitan to call some other Bishops out of the next prouince, that they may iudge together, and decide the controuersie. But tcan. 1… ▪if al the Bishops of the prouince agree and giuegive one sentēce of him: then may he be iudged no more by any other, (no not by the Pope,) but that must stand which they hauehave said.
Hart.
Yet the Councell of Sardica can not be denyed to hauehave made with vsus. For there it was ordeined, that, uConc. Sardic. can. 5.if a Bishop, depriued by the Bishops of his owne prouince, appealed to the Pope: the Pope, if he thought good, might write to the Bishops who were neere that prouince, that they should examin the matter diligently, and giuegive right iudgement of it; or send him selfe also some *That is of his Clergie of the Church of Rome: whence the name of Legates a latere is taken.from his owne side, to iudge together with them.
Rainoldes.
When this was alleaged by the Popes legate, in his behalfe, at Carthage: xEpist. ad Caelestin. Concil. African. c. 10….the Bishops of Afrike said (after long serch) that they found it not ordeined by any Councell. Which moued yCusan. de concordant. cath…l. l. 2. c. 25.a Doctour of your owne to write, that it may be douted whether the Councell of Sardica ordeined it or no. And sith zAthan. in Apolog. 2.at that Councell there were not many lesse than fourtie Bishops of Afrike, who brought home the canons thereof, as it is likely: his dout hath reason for it Unlesse peraduenture, because in aConc. Sa…dic. can. 3.the fountaine and spring of that canon Iulius is named, in whom bTheodoret. hist. eccle. l. … cap. 8.the Councell had a speciall affiance for his dealing against the Arians: therefore the Bishops of Afrike thought it to hauehave bene geuē personally to Iulius, not to Popes in generall; and so cPriuilegium personale extinguitur cum persona. De regulis Iur. in sext.to hauehave died with him, not liued with them. But if it were ordeined indéede by the Councell, in respect of him, as Pope, not as Iulius: yet dSander. de vi…ib. Monar. eccles. lib. 7.Alan. Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 6.they, who auouch it to proue the Popes supremacie, doe make as good a reason, as if a man should claime the whole citie of London, because he hath the lease of a house in Hogsdon. For eConc. Sardic. can. 3. & 5.the Councell of Sardica tieth him in all pointes, (saue only in this,) to his owne prouince, as well as other Bishops; and in this, it sheweth that he had it not of right before time, but now by that grant; neither doth it grant him to iudge of the causes, but to commend the iudgement therof to the Synode, or (at the most) to be a fellow-iudge with thē; and they, in whose causes it granteth him so much, are Bishops, fcan. 23. & 14.none else. Howbeit, euen this too, that he should send some from his own side to iudge of their causes together with the Synode, was repealed afterward, and the whole committed to Synodes of the prouince, or diocese, if the prouince serued not. Belike, vponupon experience of some harme ensuing: as gPlini. hist. nat. l. 17. c. 4.a husband man (in Sicilie) hauing rid stones out of his ground, was troubled so with myre, that he lost his corne till he had layde them in agayne. For hConc. Constā …inop. can. 2.the generall Councell of Constantinople did forbid the Bishops of a diocese (such as Egypt, contayning many prouinces) to meddle with the Churches without their owne limits: and commaund that things in eueryevery prouince should be ordered by the Synode of the prouince, according to the canons of the Nicen Councell.
Hart.
But they gaue i…. 3.the primacie of honour to the Bishop of Constantinople after the Bishop of Rome. Which sheweth that the Bishop of Rome in their iudgement was ouer all in primacie.
Rainoldes.
In primacie of honour, M. Hart, not of power: as I hauehave often sayd. For in power they made him equall with his brethren, enclosing them all within their owne limits ▪ and appointing kcan. 6.the causes of Bishops to be iudged eche by his owne Synode, first, of the prouince; then, of the diocese; without mention of the Pope. 1foreignYet in 2foreignhonour, they set him highest; Constantinople, next: as the very wordes of the Councell sh…w. It is true, that this height and preeminence of honour was a cause that moued him to lust for greater power too, and meanes that lift him vp vntounto it. For as lMasi…s in Iosuam cap. 20.murderers in Italie are woont to flie to sanctuaries to escape punishment, and mLiui. lib. 1.Romulus receaued runagates at Rome to aduance his state: so n…onc. Afric. cap. 101.disorderly persons not able to maintaine their faultes against iustice in their owne prouince, did runne to the Pope; and ocap. 105.ambitious heades, whether of Popes themselues, or of some about thē, aspired to greater rule vnderunder pretense of priuiledges of the Church of Rome. But as generall Councels had prouided generall salues against such euils: so the Councels of prouinces and dioceses applied them to this particular sore for safetie of their Churches. For it was decréed by the Councell of Mileuis, that, pConc. Mile…itan. can. 22.if any Elder, or Deacon, or clergie-man of inferiour state appealed *Ad …ransmarina iudicia they terme it, wherby the Pope is meant: though Gratian fondly do except him, 2. q. 6. c. placuit vt presbyteri.to the Pope: no man in Afrike should communicate with him. The Councell of Carthage sheweth that qConc. Carth. Grac. can. 28.they had often decreed the same of Bishops. And when yet they could not auoide the shamelesse shiftes of tumultuous braines, who made Rome their refuge; and Zosimus in the quarell of Apiarius an Elder would hauehave his Bishop Vrban to be excommunicated, or appeere at Rome: the Bishops of all the prouinces of Afrike did debate the matter with him and his successors, Boniface, and Caelestine, for the space of foure or fiue yeares together. In fine, when the true and authenticall copies of the Nicen Councell, whereon the Pope grounded, were gotten out of the East; and thereby the falshoode of his plea appéered: rEpist. Concil. African. ad C… lestin. cap. 105.the Councell of Afrike told him, that he should not meddle with the causes of men in their prouinces; nor receaue any such to the communion as they had excommunicate. For the Councell of Nice (sayd they) did consider wisely and vprightly that all matters ought to be determined in the places in which they began: as being perswaded that the grace of the holy ghost would not be wanting to any prouince, whereby the Christian Bishops might both wisely see, and constantly maintaine the right. Chiefly, sith it is lawfull for any, if he like not the sentence of his iudges, to appeale to the Synodes of his owne prouince: yea, or farther also to a 3Vniue…sale, meaning a Synode of t…e diocese, not, of the whole world. Concil. Cons…antinop. can. 6.generall Synode. Vnlesse there be any perhaps who will imagin, that our God can inspire the triall of right into one man, and denie it to a great number of Bishops assembled in a Synode. And so going forward with proofe that the Pope ought not to iudge their causes, either at Rome, himselfe; or by his Legates sent from Rome: they touched his attempt in modest sort, but at the quicke, condemning it of 4Fumosum typhum saeculi.pride, & smokie statelinesse of the world.
Hart.
I maruell if the Councel of Afrike wrote thus, as you report of it. For sConfess. Aug. l. 1. c. 9. tit 6.Torrensis citeth an epistle of theirs to proue the Popes supremacie.
Rainoldes.
Torrensis citeth it with as much sinceritie, as an other tCampian. Ra…ione 4.Iesuite doth the foure general Councels: both fowly abusing the shew of some wordes against the drift and meaning of their whole sentences. For the Councell of Afrike, though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons (whereby he claimed) were serched, yet at length condemned it, as I hauehave shewed:The fourth Diuision. and of the foure generall Councels, as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince, or diocese at the most; so did the two later, of uIn sentent. super petitione episcopor. Cypr.Eph…sus and xCan. 1. & ….Chalcedon, confirming the decrées and canons of the former.
Hart.
Nay, doubtlesse at yActio…. 16.Chalcedon, the Iudges, hauing heard the former canons read, sayd that they perceiued al primacie & principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby.
Rainoldes.
But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour. As zConcil Chalced. can. 28.the C…uncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both: ordeining therevpon, that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome, and be next vntounto it. Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour, not of power. For acan. 9. & 17.themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese, or of Constantinople. Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople, whom they authorised to deale in eueryevery diocese; then to the Roman Patriarke, whom they tied to his own. In so much that bAnn. Comne…a Alexiad. l. 1.ye Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon. At least if the Councel ha… an eye to power, and not to honour only, in willing them to be magnified: yet that is a disproofe still of ye Popes supremacie. As you may learne by cDist. 22. c. Reno…antes.Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in dSext. Synod. Constantinopolit. in Tr…ll. can 36.the Councell of Constantinople, hath helped it with a negatiue: and where the Councell sayd, Let Constantinople 1foreign.be magnified as well as Rome; he alleageth it, let 2Non …ame… magnificetur.not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome.
Hart.
The Councell, which that canon was renued in, *Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 5.is vntruly called ye sixth general Councel. For they made no canons.
Rainoldes.
Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople, cPraefat. synod. in Trullo ad Iustinian.with credit of a generall. And fSynod. Nicaen. …ecund. can. 1.the next generall Councell did confirme them. Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too. Yea, againe gSynod. octau. gener. Constantinopolit. can. 17.the next defined of the Pope, as of other Patriarkes: and that vponupon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short, the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell, generall, or prouinciall: vntil the East Churches were rent from the West, and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels.
Hart.
What meane you to say so? wheras hConcil Later. sub Innocent. tert. cap. 5.the Councell of Lateran vnderunder Innocētius did approue it flatly: the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present.
Rainoldes.
Not the right Patriarkes, iThe Pope mad… Latin Prelates Patria…kes of Constantinople, against the r…ht Greeke ones. Concil. Florent. Sess. vlt.I trow. Though if they had bene: yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them. But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie. For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church. Wherevpon kPope Paschal the secōd. c. Significasti. de electione. Pope Pius the second. Epist. 400. Turrecremata. Summ. de eccle. l. 3. c. 46. Sander. de visib. Monarch. eccle. lib. 7. …o…rensis de autorit. summ. Pont. supra Concilia. Stapleton. Princip doctr. lib. 13. cap. 15. The Schoolemen commonly, in 4. sentent. dist. 19. And almost all the Cano…istes▪ in c. Significas…i. de elect. c. Si Papa. Dist 40.the principall proctours of it teach, that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope, but the Pope aboue the Coūcel. For lGersen & Almain tractat. de po…est. ecclesiae. Cusan us de concordant. cathol. lib. 2. cap. vlt. … in c. sig…i…icasti de elect.they (sayth Father mBellarmin. prael…ct. Rom. con…rouer. 3. pa…t. 3. quast. 4.Robert) who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope; do make him like a Duke of Venice: aboue eueryevery magistrate and senatour in seuerall, not aboue the whole Senate. But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely, and aboue the generall Councell: so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him. Now, the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnderunder Innocentius, was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice: ouer eueryevery Church and Bishop in seuerall, not ouer the whole Church. A signorie of great state: but not a Popes Monarchie. His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell, nor by any other for many ages after: nay, it was condemned expresly by the Councell of n…Constance, & of oSession. 2. & 26. & 1….Basil. The first, that allowed it, was the pSession. 11.Councell of Lateran vnderunder Leo the tenth: a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ.
Hart.
Nay, the qSession. vlt.Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before: the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto.
Rainoldes.
But in such sort, that rBell…rmin. praelect. Rom. contr. 3. p. 3. q. 4.your Roman reader, though making the most thereof for the Popes credit, was fain… yet to say, that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely. In truth sConcil. Florent. Sess. vlt.the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues, for they might not treate thereof without consent (they sayd) of their whole Church, but of themselues they answered, that the Pope ought to hauehave the same prerogatiues, that he had before the time of their dissension. Which is a great presumption, that when they subscribed to more then the same, it was not of themselues. Chiefly sith 1VponUpon their Emperours importun…tie▪ and danger of t…eir S…ate.they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did, and 2Both presently there, in choosing a new Patriarke: & after when they were returned into their countr…y.refused to obey the Pope when they had done it. But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it. From whom tAppellat. Vniuersit. Parisien…is a Leone decimo ad futurū Concilium. In f…scic. rerum expetend. & fugicad.the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell; and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée: as uAen. Silu de g…stis Basil. Co…il. lib 1.the Uniuersities of L…uan, of Coolein, x…i…tor. de Europa, cap. 22.of Vienna, and of y…omer. de … Polonor. lib. 21.Cracouia had done before also. The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie. And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches. Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd, that, except the crew of the Italian faction, all Christian Churches hauehave condemned his vsurped soueraintie.
Hart.
Truly (I must confesse) I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did. But in that you said that all Christian Churches hauehave condemned it, and doe till this day, you forgot your selfe, who granted zChapt. 8. …. 6.before, that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell. For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent (which you call the of Trent-doctrine) is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day.
Rainoldes.
I said, that all Christian Churches hauehave condemned it, and doe, except the crew of the Italian faction. Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent. For the a…ess. 7. de reformat. In pro…mio. & Sess. 14 cap. 7. & Sess. 25. de re…rm. …. cap. vlt.Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie, is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbea…e the rest in. As bCommentar. in Epist. ad litum ca…. ….Claudius Espencaeus, a Diuine of Parise, a Doctour of your own witnesseth: saying, that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil, that looke what 3… Italicaethe Italian nation liketh of, that is decreed in Councels; & 4… est illa Helena quae … n…per obtinuit.this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent. Now, that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of, was, cAen. Silu. de gestis Basil. Cō cil. lib. 1.that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should hauehave voices, as of old dAct. 15.22. & 16.4. Euseb. h…st. eccles. lib. 6. cap. 42. & lib. 7. cap. 28. & 29.time they had: for 5Si soli episcopi vocem habeant, id demum fiet quod nationi placebit Italicae, quae so…a n… tiones alias in numero episcoporum a…t superat aut aequat.if Bishops only hauehave voices, (sayth the Cardinall) then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation, which alone hath ether mo Bishops, or as many, as al other nations hauehave. For eueryevery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there. And these buggage-Bishops, *There were almost two hundred Italiā Prelates there: of all other nations not a hundred. Concil. Trident. excus▪ a Plantin. in numer. P… lator. qui ad Trident. Synod. conuene…u….of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations, did allow that doctrine. Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart, but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vntounto it. For eResponsum Franci… Vargas de episcoporum iurisdict. & Pont Max. autorit.the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie, (made at Rome, and published, for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent) doth shew that fPauli Manut. praes. ad Respō sum Fr. Vargasthere was some sticking at the matter. And your gGui…iardin. hist. Ital. lib. 9. & 20. Iouius. hist. sui temporis lib. 2.stories note, that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels, leaft they should hurt his State: and commeth like a beare to the stake (as they say) when he is drawne to summon them. What hAs Espencaeus sheweth, Comment. in epist. ad Titum. cap. 1.a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward? And iAs Onuphrius sayth, Vita Pij quart. in vit. Pont. adiect. ad Platin.while the Councell lasted, he kept good rule at Rome: but brake loose whē it was ended. Besides, it being ended twentie yeares ago, there hath bene none since: nether (I beléeue) is like to be in hast. Where yet there should be one 6De decennio in decennium perpetuo.eueryevery ten yeres, by kConcil. Constantiens. Sess. 39. c. Frequens.their own decrée. All euident tokens, that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnderunder him like not his supremacie: and would cut it shorter if they might hauehave power and autoritie to do it. Which if they would do, though being lFormaiuram. praestand. ab episcopo elect. in Pontificali Rom. part. 1.sworne to maintaine it; yea, and to maintaine the reseruations, the prouisions, & other excesses of it: is it not manifest that they disallow it, or detest it rather?
Hart.
Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ, till King Harries dayes, when heresie did roote it out.
Rainoldes.
Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope, long after S. Gregorie, for S. Gregories sake: and honoured him aboue all Bishops. But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer thē, in giuing Church-liuings▪ and handling Church-causes, and executing Church-censures: they were so farre frō liking it, that mPolydor. virg. …. Ang. lib. 19. & 20. in Edouardo te…t. & Ricardo secūd.they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago. Euen in Queene Maries time, when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnderunder King Henrie the eigth: n1. & 2. Philip. & Mariae cap. 8.they prouided that hée should hauehave no more but that stoompe, & kept the former lawes in force against him still. Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour, some of power too: yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome; his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day. Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasiō: as our neighbours of oAd Zudouicū vndecim. pro libe…t. eccles. Gall aduers. Rom. aulam defensio Parisiensis curiae.Fraunce, & pGra…mina nationis German. & sacri Ro…an. Imperij dece…: exhibi…a Maximiliano primo.Germanie. For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie, by supplications & complaints offered to their Princes. Yea, qIn conuentu Litu…ice…si.Fraunce made lawes against it: which might hauehave continued; had not rConcil. Lateran. sub Leon. decim. Sess. 11. Concordata cum Rege Franciae.the Gentiles raged & broken the bands a sunder. And these, of whose iudgements I hauehave spoken hitherto, are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians. The rest, Christians also, though you cal them heretikes, and schismatikes, yet Christians, the Churches of sChalcocond. de reb. …ure. lib. 1. & 6.Greece and Asia, in the East; in the North, of tIouius in Moscoui….Moscouie; in the South of uAluarez in descript. A…th…op. cap. 77. & …3.Aethiopia; in the West, of xAen. Syl… hist. Bohem… 35.Boheme, ySleidan. comm…ntar. lib. 16.Prouince, z…. Fox, in the Act. and Mo…u…n lib. 7.Piemont heretofore, & aHar…onia confes…ion…m file…, …ect. 10. & 11.the reformed Churches that are at this day in England, Scotland, Fraunce, Germanie, Flaunders, Suitzerland, and so foorth throughout Europe, set lesse by the Pope then the former did. That I might say iustly, that, except the crew of the Italian factiō, (wherein I comprehend the Iesuites, and their complices, men Italianate,) al Christian Churches hauehave condemned the Popes supremacie, & do till this day. Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men: so many thousandes of them, Pastours and Doctours, Synodes and Coūcels, Uniuersities and Churches, through all ages, in all countries, of al sorts, and states, might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie. At least they might make you to blush, M. Hart, who hauehave sayd in bChapt. 7. Diuis. 7.writing, that all men did grant it him without resistance, & it was neuer denied him. But sith it must be tried by the word of God, and it is not writen in the booke of life. I conclude, that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem, but a child of Babylon, which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones. And thus hauehave I shewed that the former point, on which you refuse to communicate with vsus in prayers and religion, ought to bring you rather to vsus, then draw you from vsus. It remaineth now that we sift the later: of the faith professed in the Church of England. Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith, as in truth it will: then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld, that we may go together into the house of the Lord.