Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 11
XI. Propoſition. That the Church is euer gloriouſly conſpicuous to the world.
What wee meane, when we ſay, that the Church is ſometime hidden.
WHen we ſpeake of an inuiſible Church, we meane the Church Catholicke in our Creede, which we doe beleeue, and doe not ſee, nor can ſee: for faith is the ground and euidence of things not ſeene, Heb. 11. 1. alſo faith and ſight are oppoſed, 2. Cor. 5. 7. but wee onelyonly beleeue the Catholicke Church, as in our Creed we confeſſe, and therefore is it inuiſiſible, partly in heauen triumphing, partly here on earth militant, knowne onelyonly to God, 2. Tim. 2. 19. and not diſcerned of men, becauſe they be only the Elect of God. This is the Church ſpoken of, Heb. 12. 22, 23, 24. Rom. 2. 28, 29. Mat. 16. 18. Eph. 1. 22. and 5. 23. Col. 1. 18. and the hidden ones, Pſal. 83. 3.
Beſides this Catholicke, we hold alſo a particular Church viſible. For beginning in Paradiſe, we may finde ſuch a viſible Church till the flood; from thence to Moſes: from him (vnderunder whom it mightily increaſed into thouſands of families) till the ſame was planted in Canaan, where it became a Nationall Church, and neuer wanted ſome degree of viſibility in more or fewer of the members thereof, vntounto the comming of Chriſt, who taught the people, and gathered Diſciples, which profeſſed him, and after his Aſcenſion, were the firſt of thoſe, which after were called Chriſtians; all being then together in Ieruſalem for a time, and the only viſible Church of Chriſt vponupon earth, which viſible Church through perſecution, began to be ſcattered abroad, and the Apoſtles and Teachers being alſo diſperſed, this one Apoſtolicall Church ſpred farre and wide into the world, neuer being any more entire at once in one place, as before it had beene in Ieruſalem, but from that time to this day, hath beene, and is in ſeuerall Congregations, which are called Churches, eueryevery one bearing the denomination of the whole, becauſe all of them doe make but one Church, as alſo for that eueryevery one of them ſhould liuely repreſent that firſt Church in Ieruſalem, (from whence theſe other came into the world) in doctrine of the Apoſtles fellowſhip, Sacraments, and prayer with one accord, Act. 2. 42, 46.
This Church taken in a generall notion, for all thoſe that profeſſe Chriſt any where, in any ſort, hath euer beene viſible in the world, & alſo to the world, to Iewes, Turks and Pagans.
But thus taken in ſo ſuperficiall, bare, and naked apprehenſion, it comprehendeth all ſorts of Aſſemblies profeſſing Chriſt, whether purely or impurely, Orthodoxally, or Heretically, vniformely, or Schiſmatically, and ſo hath ſeuerall names; Sometimes taken from the City where ſuch Aſſemblies be, as the Church of Ieruſalem, Antioch, Corinth, Epheſus, Philippi, Theſſalonica, and Coloſſe; Sometime according to the Countries, as the Churches of Galatia. So we ſay now, The Church of France, of England, Scotland; Sometime from the Sect-Maſters names, as Arians, Macedonians, Eutychians, Neſtorians, Donatiſts, as now, Browniſts, Separatiſts, &c. Sometime from the People, according to their Countrey where they were borne, though dwelling elſewhere, as wee hauehave here in London, and ſome other coaſts of England, the Dutch, the French, and Italian Churches; Sometime from the Coaſts, as the Eaſt and Weſt Church; Sometime from the Language vſed in the publike worſhip, as the Greeke Church, and the Latine Church; Sometimes from the opinions held, as Anabaptiſts, Ʋbiquitaries, and Familists. And thus come we and our Aduerſaries to be diuerſly named: though we be all in generall called Chriſtians, yet wee call them that are yoaked vnderunder the B. of Rome, Papiſts, for their Pope and Romaniſts from their City; but they themſelues vſurped the name of Catholikes. They call vsus Lutherans, and Caluiniſts; but we make none ſaue only Chriſt the autor of our faith: commonly we are called Proteſtants, becauſe we continue our proteſtation againſt the enemies and abominations of the Romiſh Church.
Such a Church thus taken in this generall manner, profeſſing Chriſt vnderunder one name or other, hath euer bene viſible, euen to the world. Thus we teach that the Church is euer viſible one where or other, and neuer wholy hidden at any time.
But here in the queſtion, the name Church we take more ſtrictly, for a companie whereſoeuer aſſembled in publique, together worſhipping the true God in Ieſus Chriſt, as God himſelfe onelyonly hath preſcribed by his Word, whereto outwardly they profeſſe conformitie, both for doctrine, and conuerſation alſo in good meaſure.
This true Church of God, we ſay, is viſible; Firſt, in reſpect that it conſiſts of men, making open profeſſion. Secondly, in reſpect of the place being publique, where ſuch obtaine liberty to meete together. Thirdly, in reſpect of the externall actions in and about the worſhip of God; Thus this Church is viſible, but not alike gloriouſly cōſpicuous at al times, in eueryevery place where God planteth it; This Church we affirm not to be at any time inuiſible: but we only ſay, it is ſometime hidden; neither yet do we meane hereby, that it is ſo hidden, as not to be found any where, of thē that ſeeke after it by due means, as if it were vtterly extinguiſhed: nor ſo hidden, as not to be ſeene of any, in any place: for ſuch a hiding we neuer dreame of, as our Aduerſaries interpret falſely againſt vsus: but when we ſay it is hidden, we meane, that it is not acknowledged, but contemned by the euill ones, which louelove not the truth, by reaſon of the fewnes of the followersMat. 10. 23. and 23 34. Heb. 11. 38. Act. 1. 13. and 12. 12 and 20. 7, 8. thereof, and their ſecret meetings in time of perſecution, and their decay of outward gouernment, and publique exerciſes in open places. For theſe reaſons, ſhe is ſaid to be hidden; and this hidden eſtate of the Church commeth to paſſe,
1. For that ſhe conſiſteth of a mixt companie, the worſer ſort ſometime, and for a long time comming to be the greater and a preuailing faction.
2. As they preuaile, ſo they diminiſh the number, weaken the credit of thoſe profeſſing the truth, and do bring cunningly their owne will, their owne inuentions and wayes, into eſtimation with the worldly minded.
3. This preuailing faction and greater number increaſing, engroſſe and arrogate to themſelues the name of the Church, and ſo encroach vponupon credit to their owne deuices, as vaunting to be the onelyonly true Church, and their profeſſion and practice, the onelyonly true and ſound Religion.
4. Hereupon they condemne the other as Schiſmatiques, and Hereticks, and their way as hereſie, and ſo raiſe vp againſt them perſecution, inhibiting their meetings in publique, ſcattering their Aſſemblies, puniſhing their Teachers, and making them to be generally euill ſpoken of, and putting by-names vponupon them full of reproach, to cauſe thē to be the more deteſted of the worſt, and diſtaſted of indifferent minds, by forging many lies and falſities vponupon them, both in life and doctrine.
5. By this it commeth to paſſe, that now they are glad to flie away, to hide themſelues, to meete in ſecret places, where they may with any ſafetie come together, till God raiſe ſuch as be in authoritie to afford them publique meetings againe.
In the meane ſpace they are as it were hidden: and this is all we meane, when we ſpeake of the hidden Church; which is not ſo hidden, but that the members of her are ſeene one to another,See D Whites te a…d cable ob…eruati…ns of the Church, i… … Reply to Fiſher, pag. 51. and do often meete together: yea, ſome of them are eſpied by this preuailing faction ſometime, whom they cruelly perſecute, and put to death, if they do not recant, and turne to them.
Their aſſertion, that the Church hath beene euer to the world gloriouſly viſible, is moſt falſe:
Confuted by their owne Bible.
1. By Propheticall ſpeeches, foretelling that the Church ſhall loſe her glorious conſpicuouſneſſe to the world, 1. Chr. 15. 3. And many dayes ſhall paſſe in Iſrael without the true God, and without Prieſt and Teachers, and without the Law, Oſea. 3. 4. Many dayes ſhall the children of Iſrael ſit, without King, without Prieſt, without Sacrifice, without Altar, and without Ephod, and Teraphim. See alſo Mich. 3. 6, 7. and in Mat. 24. 24. Chriſt foretelleth that falſe Chriſts, and falſe prophets ſhall ariſe, and ſo farre ſeduce, as to deceiue the verie elect, if it were poſſible; which could not be, if ye true Church ſhould be euer gloriouſly conſpicuous. S. Paul, 2. Theſſ. 2. 3, 4. telleth vsus of ſuch a reuolt, as Antichriſt ſhall be exalted and ſit in the Temple of God. And S. Iohn in the Reuelation, Chap. 9. 2. telleth of ſuch a darkneſſe, that ſhould obſcure the Sunne and Aire, of ſuch an oppreſſion of the Church, as ſhe ſhould be trodden vnderunder foote, Chap. 11. 2. of ſuch a perſecution, as ſhe ſhould be glad to fly into the wilderneſſe, Chap. 12. 6. and laſtly, of ſuch a preuailing of the Beaſt that enemie, as the whole earth ſhould adore, and follow after him, Chap. 13. 7, 8. Which Word of God muſt needs be true. And therefore the Church is not euer gloriouſly conſpicuous to the world, as an earthly Monarchy or eſtate.
2. By Hiſtoricall narration, 2. Chron. 15. 3. Heb. 11. 37, 38. Iudg. 6. 2. in the kingdom of Iudah, in Ahaz his dayes, in the dayes of Manaſſes his reuolt from God; for then was there no glorious conſpicuitie of the Church any where. What a low ebbe was Gods Church come to in Iſrael in Eliah his dayes? About the time of Chriſts ſuffering, what glorious face of the true Church we… there then? Chriſt was condemned: the Apoſtles were ſted … ſcattered: Peter forſwore Chriſt. Was heere a glorious true Church in the eye of the world? We ſee then, the Church hath not euer beene in a pompous viſibilitie.
Contraried by Antiquitie.
S. Auguſtine, Epist. 80. ad Heſych. towards the end, and Epist. 48. ad Vincent. ſaith, When the Sunne ſhall be darkened, and the Moone ſhall not giuegive her light, and the Starres ſhall fall from heauen, (as is propheſied, Reuel. 6. and 9. 1.) then the Church ſhall not appeare, for that then the vngodly perſecutorsSee more of this his opinion in Enarrat. in Pſal. 10. de bapt. alſo contra Donat. lib. 6. cap. 4. ſhall rage out of meaſure.
S. Chryſoſtome on Mat. Hom. 49. ſaith, that ſince the time that Hereſies inuaded the Church, it can no wayes be knowne which is the true Church of Chriſt, but by the Scriptures onelyonly: in this confuſion it can no otherwaies elſe be knowne. This ſheweth then that the true Church of God is not euer viſibly glorious. And this is manifeſt, if we conſider the eſtate thereof in the time of the Arian Emperours; the world almoſt being turned Arian, as S. Hierome complaineth.
Gaineſaid by ſome of themſelues.
Alex. Hales part. 3. q. vlt. num. 5. Art. 2. ſaith, that about the time of Chriſts paſſion, the true faith remained in none, but in the Virgin Marie.
So Durand. Rat. lib. 6. cap. 72. num. 25.
So Panormit de elect. & elect. poteſt. cap. ſanctificaſti.
So Turrecramat. de Conſecrat. d. 2. ſemel Chriſtus, Num. 4.
It was a poore viſibilitie then, farre from glorious conſpicuouſneſſe.
Many Papiſts write of a miſerable eſtate of the Church in the time of Antichriſt: that the Maſſe ſhall be celebrated in few places, and verie priuately in caues and ſecret places, yea, perhaps the Pope ſhall then profeſſe his faith in ſecret. See for theſe things, Pererius on Daniel, pag. 714. Ouandus in Breuiloqu. in 4 ſent. D. 18. prop. 3. pag. 602. Suarez. lib. 5. Contr. ſect. Angli. cap. 21. Acoſta de Temp. nouiſ. lib. 2. cap. 15. Rhem. on 2 Theſſ 2. 3. All theſe ſpeake of the Churches almoſt vtter ex…pation. See more teſtimonies, of Occam, Caietan, Maluenda, Barradius, and others in D. Whites Reply to Fiſher, pag. 77.
This they do meane of their Romiſh Church-Seruice, Maſſe, and Religion; which I pray God to haſten, and make them true Prognoſticators of their owne downefall and ruine, Amen, Amen.
But that Romiſh Antichriſt hath played his part againſt the true Church alreadie, as is foretold in 2. Theſſ. 2. Reu. 9. and 11. and 12. and 13. which theſe men cannot, or will not ſee, being made drunke with that whores cup of her fornication,
The Scriptures obiected anſwered.
Mat. 5. 14. Yet are the Light of the World, a Citie ſet on a hill cannot be hidden: Neither doe men light a Candle, and put it vnderunder a Buſhell, but on a candleſticke, and it giueth light to all that are in the houſe.
Anſw. This place doth not proue the Church viſible or vnhidden at all times, and to all; the ſucceſſiue perpetuall Church is not expreſſed nor intended: for Chriſt ſpake this to, and of his Diſciples then. So Chryſoſtome taketh it: and yet euen theyIn Pſal. 38. (when they fled from Chriſt) were hidden for a time. But here is a threefold ſimilitude, by which our Aduerſaries go about to proue the euer-glorious viſibilitie of the Church.
1. From the word light; yee are the light of the World. What light is there in nature, which is alwaies ſeene? The very Sunnes light is not ſo in the ſame place: for it goeth downe at night, and in the day-time it is often beclouded, and at ſome times eclipſed, neither doe all ſee it, though it ſhine forth; for the blind man cannot; he that is a ſleepe, or winketh, doth not; and they that are out of the Horizon cannot. So then, let the Church be the Sunnes light; yet ſhee therefore cannot bee proued to bee euer gloriouſly viſible to all, eueryevery where: when the eſtate of the Church ſhall bee, as is ſaid in Reuel. 6. 12. the Sunne being blacke as Sackcloth: and in Chap. 9. 2. the Sunne and Aire darkened with the ſmoke comming out of the bottomleſſe pit,Epiſt. 80. ad H… ſych & 48. ad Vincent. then (ſaith Saint Auguſtine) the Church ſhall not appeare.
2. From a Citie ſet vponupon an Hill, which cannot be hid: true, totally, and finally to all and eueryevery one at all times; for ſo wee ſay, the Church cannot be hid: but ſuch as truly ſeek… vntounto her, and in ſinceritie deſire to ſee her, ſhall come to the ſight of her. But yet a Citie ſet on an hill, is euer hidden to thoſe that want ſight, to ſuch as be farre off from it, to ſuch as be neere to it, is it ſometime hidden, when foggie miſts ariſe and hinder the ſight. This ſimily therefore proueth not a perpetuall viſibilitie of the Church.
3. From the Candle on a candleſticke; but the candle often burneth dimly, and needeth ſnuffers to ſnuffe it. Againe, it lightneth onelyonly thoſe that hauehave eyes to ſee; and hauehave their eyes open to ſee, elſe it doth not giuegive them light. Thirdly, it giueth light onelyonly to them that are in the houſe, to wit, in the ſame roome, but not to other, in another roome, in the ſame houſe, if a wall bee betweene them. Wee ſee then, that theſe ſimilies doe not expreſſely prooue a continuall cleare viſibilitie of the Church.
Mat. 18. 17. Tell the Church: if he neglect to heare the Church, let him be to thee as a Heathen.
Anſw. This place the Gagger alleageth before for to prooue, that the Church could not erre, and now that ſhe is euer gloriouſly viſible, yet here are no expreſſe words, nor direct intent of her viſibility or hiding.
1. Chriſt here did ſpeake of the Iewiſh Church then, which was not the Catholike, but a particular Church viſible.
2. If applied to vsus, it cannot bee meant of the Catholike Church, for that cannot bee ſeene with our eyes, but beleeued; neither if it could be ſeene, can ſhe bee gathered into one place, to heare priuate cauſes, as is here meant.
3. This therefore being vnderſtood of a particular Church, as it needes muſt, and that alſo of the onelyonly Eccleſiaſticall Gouerners therein; what is this to proue the viſibility of the whole Church?
4. This telling of the Church, may be done by ſuch as be of her, when ſhe is in the wilderneſſe, ſeene to her owne, and not to the world, euen where onelyonly two or three be gathered together in Chriſts Name, to heare ſuch complaints, Verſ. 19, 20.
2. Cor. 4. 3. If our Goſpell bee hid, it is hid to them that are loſt.
Anſw. Here is no word of the Church; but the wiſe Gagger taketh the Goſpell and the Church for one and the ſame. If ſo, then the place is flat againſt himſelfe: for hee ſaith, that the Church cannot be hid; but Saint Paul ſaith, the Goſpell may, to them that are loſt, blinded by Satan, and doe not beleeue: and therefore the Church may bee hid, if it and the Goſpell bee one.
Eſay 2. 2. And it ſhall come to paſſe in the laſt dayes, that the Mountaine of the Lords Houſe ſhall be eſtabliſhed in the top of the Mountaines, and ſhall be exalted aboue all the Hilles, and all Nations ſhall flow vntounto it.
Anſw. They expound this, and that of Mich. 4. 7. Dan. 7. 14. of Chriſts Kingdome; which they will hauehave to be ſenſibly and corporally viſible, when it is altogether ſpirituall. This ſpirituall Kingdome is not a viſible Mountaine, which the Nations with their bodily eyes flow vntounto; but with the eyes of their mind. But they obiect and ſay, that a Prophecie muſt bee of things which may bee ſeene and perceiued by our ſenſes But who euer ſaw with his corporall ſenſe any ſuch thing as is here foretold? Who euer ſaw men beate their ſwords into plowſhares, their ſpeares into pruning-hookes? Verſ. 4. Whoſe ſenſe euer ſaw the Wolfe lodging with the Lambe, the Leopard with the Kid, the Calfe with the young Lion, the Cow with the Beare, and the Lion eating ſtraw like an Oxe? &c. and yet theſe be Prophecies, Eſay 11. 6, 7 ſee chap. 60. 20, 21. and many other places ſpeaking of Chriſts Kingdome, and ſpirituall comforts thereof.
Eſay 61. 9. And their ſeede ſhall bee knowne among the Gentiles, &c.
Anſw. Here is ſpoken of the Churches ſeede to bee ſeene among the Gentiles; but whether openly or ſecretly is not mentioned: but the very text ſaith, All that ſee them, ſhall acknowledge them. Marke, all that ſee them. So firſt, here is no ſpeech of the whole Church, but of her ſeed. Secondly, that they are to be knowne and ſeene: but this may be as well in ſecret as openly. And thirdly, of all that ſee them. To ſome then they are not ſeene. Wee confeſſe, that all that by faith ſee the Church, to them is ſhe ſpiritually viſible. And this is all that this text affordeth.