Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 9 – Proposition 10
IX. Propoſition. That the preſent Churches determination, is the abſolute vnqueſtionable Rule of the peoples Faith, on which they are to reſt, beleeuing their Teachers, without farther enquirie:
Confuted by their owne Bible.
ROm. 12. 6. Propheſie according to the Rule of Faith. Here is a gift beſtowed vponupon the Church, which is Propheſie, expounded by the Rhemiſts to be the interpretation of the Scriptures. Then here is mention of a Rule, according to which, they that hauehave the gift of interpretation, are to expound. Where we ſee the Churches action, and the rule to be two diſtinct things, Phil. 3. 16. Let vsus continue in the ſame rule. Here in the word vsus, is to be vnderſtood the Church; in the word continue, the Churches dutie. Here is alſo mention of the Rule, a thing diſtinct from the Church, Gal. 6. 16. And whoſoeuer ſhall follow this Rule, peace be vponupon them, and mercy, and vponupon the Iſrael of God. The Church is here the Iſrael of God. The Rule is that, which ſhe, and all that looke for peace and mercy, muſt follow. The Church therefore, and the Rule, are two diſtinct things. In Gen. 26. 5. Abraham is commended for his obedience; he and his were the Church. But what was now the Rule? Euen the Ʋoyce of God, his Charge, Commandements, Statutes and Lawes.
Theſe places ſufficiently teach, that the Rule and the Church are two things. The Rule being that, according to which ſhe is to be ruled in teaching and liuing. Yea, ſo farre is the practice, cuſtome, and voyce of the Church (ſpeaking onelyonly from her ſelfe) from hauing the honour to be a Rule in neceſſary points to ſaluation, as ſhee hath not abſolute vnlimited authoritie in matters of any inferiour kind, but therein is tied to certaine obſeruances, as theſe Scriptures teach, 1. Cor. 6. 12. and 8. 13. and 10. 32. Rom. 14. 19. 1. Cor. 9. 19, 22. and 14. 14. and 10. 31.
Contraried by Antiquitie.
See before in the firſt queſtion, Ierome, Baſil, Tertullian, Chryſoſtome, Auſtin, Greg. Nyſſen, Iſi dorus, Peluſiota, and Cyril of Hieroſ. who make a difference betweene the Rule and the Church: affirming the Scriptures to be that Rule, and the ſame the Churches limits, out of which ſhe may not goe.
Gaineſayd by their owne men.
See alſo in the ſame queſtion, twelue or thirteene teſtimonies from among themſelues; that the Scriptures are the Rule: and therefore not the Church, which is to bee ruled by the Scriptures.
The Scriptures obiected anſwered.
Matth. 23. 2, 3. VponUpon the Chaire of Moſes hauehave ſitten the Scribes and Phariſes: all things therefore whatſoeuer they ſhall ſay to you, that obſerue and doe yee.
Anſw. The ſcope is not to tye men to whatſoeuer they ſhould teach, without any exception, but to take away the ſcandall of their ill liues, that they might not offend the hearers, when they taught that which was right and good. This is euident by the reaſon added; But according to their workes doe ye not, for they ſay, and doe not. That in eueryevery thing they taught, they were not to be heard, it is cleare:
1. If we conſider the ground of the ſpeech in the word therfore, that is, for that they had ſitten in Moſes Chaire: what is that? Let the Papiſts tell vsus, who ſay, To ſit in Moſes chaire, is Gloſſ. in Mat. 23. 2. Gorham. ibid. Arias Montan. elucid, on the ſame.to teach according to the doctrine and Rule of Moſes Law, and to command things agreeable thereunto. And ſo ſay the ancient Fathers.
Cyril, Catech. 12. The Chaire of Moſes, is the power of doctrine.
Origen, Hom. 24. on Matth. They ſit in Moſes Chaire, which interpret Moſes ſayings well, they ſate well that vnderſtood the Law.
So Theophylact on Mat. 23. They ſit in Moſes Chaire, that teach the things that are in the Law; with this conſideration then they are to be heard, and not otherwiſe.
2. It is manifeſt, that Chriſts words cannot be taken without reſtriction, becauſe in this ſame Chapter he calleth them fooliſh blind guides, and taxeth them for falſe doctrine, ver. 16, 22. ſhutting the kingdome of heauen before men, ver. 13. labouring to get a Proſelyte; and then to make him the child of hell double more, then themſelues. ver. 15 He alſo calleth them Hypocrites, Serpents, Ʋipers brood, ver. 33. denouncing many woes againſt them, and foretelleth how they ſhould ſcourge, perſecute, kill, and crucifie ſuch faithfull Teachers as he ſhould ſend amongſt them, ver. 33.
Theſe things duly conſidered, is it any way likely that Chriſt ſhould ſpeake without limitation, and will them to do whatſoeuer ſuch ſhould teach? whom Firſt, he calleth fooliſh Blindguides, Hypocrites, Serpents, Vipers-brood, and perſecuters of faithfull men; Secondly, whom before he had confuted for their foule corrupt gloſſes, and vaine traditions, by which they hauehave broken the Commandements of God, and made them of none effect, Mat. 5. 43, 44. and 15. 11, 14. Mark. 7. Thirdly, whom he plainely gaue his hearers a Caueat to take heede of touching their leauen, Mat. 16. 6. that is, their doctrine, verſ. 12. Fourthly, Chriſt in ſo an vnlimited ſpeech ſhould hauehave ouerthrowne his Doctrine, and ſo his owne heauenly Kingdom, for then the people ſhould hauehave taken him for a deceiuer, for a companion of Publicanes and ſinners, for one that had a diuell in him, and for ſuch a one as had caſt out diuels by Belzebub, the chiefe of the Deuils, all which they broached, yea and in a full Counſell condemned Chriſt for a wicked blaſphemer.
3 If this ſpeech had been to be vnderſtood without limitation, why did the Apoſtle refuſe afterwards to obſerue and doe what theſe (ſitting in Counſell) commanded them? Act. 4. 18, 19. & 5. 28.
4. And laſtly, Papiſts themſelues on this place doe commentIanſenius. Em. Sa. on this place, Barradut & Maldonat. Canus loc. l. 5. c. 4. Ferus on this place. thus; This place bindeth not vsus to obey them, if they teach that which is euill, for that is to teach againſt the chaire. All things are here meant, which are not againſt the Law and Commandements of God.
All things keepe (ſaith another) when the Scribes and Phariſes doe recite, explaine, teach and propound them. This place therefore is rather for the Authority of holy Scriptures, and nothing at all to eſtabliſh mens doctrine contrary or beſide Scripture.
Luk. 10. 16. He that heareth you, heareth me; and hee that deſpiſeth you, deſpiſeth me; and he that deſpiſeth me, deſpiſeth him that ſent me.
Anſw. Theſe words are not to be vnderſtood as ſpoken abſolutely, that whatſoeuer the ſeuenty Diſciples (to whom theſe words were ſpoken) ſhould teach, and the people heare from them, ſhould be taken as Chriſt ſpeaking in them, but with condition, as they ſhould teach, what he charged them to teach. For the Apoſtles had their leſſon giuen them, to teach whatſoeuer Chriſt commanded them, Mat. 28. 20. And theſe ſeuenty were taught what to doe and ſay, Luk. 10. 3, 12. which they obſeruing, Chriſt was heard in them. So the meaning is; Hee that heareth you deliuering my meſſage, and teaching what I command, heareth me, as if I were there in very perſon; and he that ſhall deſpiſe you ſo diſcharging your duty, deſpiſeth mee, and him that ſent mee, euen God himſelfe; as alſo Saint Paul ſpeaketh, 1. Theſ. 4. 8. For albeit the Apoſtles had an vn…rring Spirit, aſſiſting them in the Miniſtery, Mat. 10. 20. Mar. 13. 11. Iohn 16. 13. of whom theſe words may bee taken abſolutely, yet of all other ſucceeding, they are to be vnderſtood with the former limitation. Elſe why are we allowed, yea, & charged not to beleeue eueryevery ſpirit, but to trie the ſpirits, 1. Ioh. 4. 1. to trie all things, 1. Theſ. 5? And why are the Bereans (who not knowing Pauls Apoſtolicall function, but taking him as a Teacher, as other were) commended (as Bellarmine confeſſeth, l. 1. de Verbo Dei) for ſearching the Scriptures, and left as an example for vsus to follow, Act. 17. 11. if the Teacher were to be credited in eueryevery thing he ſhould ſpeake?
Mat. 16. 19. Whatſoeuer thou ſhalt binde in earth, ſhall be bound in heauen, &c.
Anſw. This is to be done by the Keyes which Chriſt gaue him, as the words before going ſhew: I will giuegive thee the keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen: then followeth whatſoeuer thou ſhalt binde, &c. to wit, by theſe keyes of Chriſt. Not then by his owne power and will, as himſelfe pleaſeth, but as thoſe keyes doe helpe him to open and ſhut, to bind and looſe; by and with the authority of theſe keyes muſt hee proceede, and not otherwiſe.
Now let vsus ſee, what theſe keyes be, by which hee openeth and ſhutteth, byndeth and looſeth, forgiueth and retaineth ſins. Theſe Keyes are theſe two, Chriſts Word and Chriſts Spirit, Mat 18. 18. Ioh. 20. 23.which I thus proue:
1. For that in this Text is a promiſe of giuing the keyes, I will giuegive the keyes, &c. Now, ſeeing that here they are not giuen, but promiſed, let vsus ſee, what Chriſt gaue to Peter, and other the Apoſtles, and we ſhall finde, that he gaue them two things; his Word, which hee calleth the words of his Father, and the Word of reconciliation which he put in them, and they receiued, Ioh. 17. 8. 2. Cor. 5. 19. and his Spirit, Ioh. 20. 22. which they alſo receiued, when he ſaid, Receiue ye the holy Ghoſt, breathing on them. Theſe are the two things which we finde that he gaue them: therefore they are either the keyes, or inſeparable companions of the keyes.
2. Chriſt, in Ioh. 20. 21. ſaith, As my Father hath ſent me, ſo I alſo ſend you; ſo in Chap. 17. 18. But with theſe two did his Father ſend him; with his Word, Ioh. 7. 16. and 8. 26, 28, 38. and with his Spirit, Luk. 4. 18. Mat. 3. 16. Eſay 11. 2. and 42. 1. and 61. 1, 2. Therefore theſe two are the keyes.
Keyes are by Bellarmines interpretation, here taken for great authoritie and power, as in Eſay, 22. 22. in Eliakim, ſhadowing the great power and authoritie in Chriſt, Reuel. 3. 7. exerciſed in his Church. But what greater power and authority then his Word and Spirit, can there be in Chriſt his Church? whatſoeuer it be, it is comprehended in theſe two. Therefore theſe be the keyes.
4. He ſpeakes of keyes, as of moe then one linked together; ſo that they are giuen as inſeparable: and ſo theſe two be: For the Spirit teacheth the Word of Chriſt, Ioh. 16. 13. and 14. 26. and the Word is with the Spirit, Eſay 59. 21. theſe two keyes are tyed together and giuen by Chriſt.
5. The keyes promiſed here, are the keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen: In this ſpirituall Kingdome, by theſe to beare rule, by theſe to bind and looſe in earth; is ſo verily and as ſurely done in heauen. For what in this Kingdome here can beare Rule, but his Word, and his Spirit? What truly can bind and looſe in heauen, but theſe? We may be aſſured, that what the Word and Spirit of God bindeth, they are bound indeed, and what theſe looſe, remit, and forgiue, they are looſed, remitted, and forgiuen of God in heauen: of no other keyes can we be ſo aſſured hereof. Theſe then are the keyes here promiſed to Peter, and were giuen to all the Apoſtles, and to the true Church of God.
This place therefore helpeth nothing our Aduerſaries, who boaſt of an vnerring ſpirit, leading the Pope and his Prelates, into all truth: if they bragge of this key, let them ſhew vsus the other, the Word of God, and the ſame written now in the Scriptures; or elſe their boaſting is in vaine, and their binding and looſing of no force.
Deut. 17. 8. If there ariſe a matter, &c.
Anſw. This place is for vsus, and againſt them: for here iudgement muſt be giuen, not as men thinke, out of their own braine, but, ſaith the text (according to their owne tranſlation) Thou See alſo Ezec. 44. 24.ſhalt doe whatſoeuer they that are Preſidents of the place, which our Lord ſhall chooſe, ſhall ſay and teach thee according to his Law: now that Law was written, 2. Chro. 17. 9.
This is it then we deſire, that the truth of iudgement may be from the written Word of God, which this place approueth: yet though they produce it and vrge it ſo often, neuertheleſſe it ſpeakes not of the neceſſary points of faith, but of controuerſies in matters of another nature, as the eighth verſe plainely ſheweth.
Hag. 2. 12. Thus ſaith the Lord of hoſtes, Aſke the Prieſts the Law.
Anſw. This place is alſo for vsus, and againſt themſelues: for what were the Prieſts to be asked? what, their owne opinion and iudgement? No, but they were to bee asked the Law, that is, the Law written, and according to which they did anſwere, in verſ. 13. 4. We teach, that Paſtors are to bee heard ſpeaking to vsus, out of the Word written, and accordingly as it teacheth them to ſpeake, wee muſt obey with all reuerence.
2. Chro. 19. 8, 18. Moreouer in Ieruſalem did Iehoſaphat ſet of the Leuites, &c.
Anſw. It is one with that in Deut. 17. 8. and here, contrary to the Popiſh practice, the Prieſts and Leuites were ſubiect to Iehoſaphat the King, who had an inſpection ouer them, and gaue them a charge: ſo 2. Chron. 17. 7, 8.
2. Theſ. 2 15. Stand faſt, and hold the tradition, &c.
This place is anſwered fully and at large before, in handling the former queſtion.
Mal. 2. 7. For the lips of the Prieſt ſhall keepe knowledge, and the Law ſhall they require of his mouth.
Anſw. 1. This place proueth not that the Prieſts lips euer did keepe knowledge, (though it be thus read in a Cōmandement) but teacheth what his duty was to doe: For the next verſe following telleth vsus, what the prieſts then were; But you hauehave departed out of the way, and hauehave ſcandalized many in the Law, Verſ. 8. Therefore he made them contemptible, and baſe, verſ. 9.
2. This text maketh for eueryevery Prieſt without exception: but will they hauehave eueryevery Prieſt in his teaching to be without error, and his word the rule of faith?
3. This telleth vsus what the people are to ſeeke for, to wit, the Law, but this as before is proued, was written.
X. Propoſition. That the Church is no where in Scriptures taken for the inuiſible Church:
Confuted by their owne Bible.
Heb. 12. 23. ANd the Church of the firſt borne which are written in Heauen: which in the former verſ. 22. he calleth Mount Sion, & the city of the liuing God, heauenly Ieruſalem, and the aſſembly of many thouſand angels. Is this the viſible, or inuiſible church? doth mans eye looke vponupon this heauenly company? Reu. 14. 1, 3. There is the Lambe with his company redeemed from the earth vponupon Mount Sion, hauing his Fathers Name written in their foreheads, Mat. 16. 18. Rom. 8. 29. Eph. 1 22. and 5. 23, 32. Col. 1. 18. 1 Pet. 2. 5. Reuel 21. 10 In which places is to be vnderſtood the inuiſible Church, and whereſoeuer it is vnderſtood of the myſticall body of Chriſt, it is there the inuiſible Church.
Contraried by Antiquitie.
The Ancient Fathers found in Scripture an inuiſible Church.
Saint Auguſtine, in Pſal. 92. concion. 2. part. 2. of the ſame Pſalme, maketh onelyonly the elect from Abel to the worlds end, to be the Church, this Church is inuiſible to man.
Saint Cyprian ſaith, in Epiſt. 55. That thoſe are the Church, which abide in the houſe of God. But can man ſee, who will abide therein.
Origen, in Math. 16. 18. vnderſtandeth the Church, of ſuch as fall not away, but doe ouercome, and are not ouercome of thoſe gates of hell: but ſuch are knowne onelyonly to God, and not diſcerneable by men, nor ſeene with bodily eyes.
Saint Gregory, in Hom. 19. in Euang. calleth the Catholike Church the Lords Vineyard, from iuſt Abel, to the laſt of the elect in the end of the world. Doth Gregory vnderſtand this of the viſible Church? What mortall eye can ſee this Church of the Elect? On Iob, cap. 9. in l. moral. 35. Hee writeth, that Chriſt and the Church, the Head and the Body are one perſon. But who euer ſaw this with his eyes? Gregory therefore found in the Scripture an inuiſible Vineyard and Church of Chriſt.
Gaineſaid by their owne men.
Caietan taketh that of Mat. 16. 18. for the congregation of the faithful.
Ferus expoundeth it of the Elect: now the Elect are viſible to the eye.
Our Aduerſaries alleadge many places to proue the Church moſt properly to bee called viſible, as Num. 20. 4. 1. King. 8. 14. Act. 20. 28. and 15. 3, 4. and 18. 22. and many other Scriptures.
Anſw. 1. All theſe are of particular viſible Churches, and not vnderſtood of the Catholike: the former we affirme to be viſible; but not this.
1. The places contradict not this which we hold, that the Church, ſomewhere in holy Scriptures, is taken for the inuiſible Church, which they by bringing places to proue a viſible Church, doe not gaineſay.