Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 12

Reims Against Rome · Propositions · Proposition 12

p. 88XII. Propoſition. That the Church cannot erre?

THe Church here taken for the viſible Church, conſiſting of a mixt company, wee ſay, may erre. This their opinion taught and beleeued of the people, is the mother and nurſe of all the miſchiefes in that Romiſh Synagogue, which arrogateth the name and priuiledge of Gods Church, and that Church only is intended by this peruerſe Teacher. For this is the Myſtery of iniquitie, and ſecret Cabala of the Roman Rabbins: when they giuegive the glorious title of inerrabilitie to the Catholike or generall Church, they all the while meane none other then their Miſtreſſe, the Lady of the ſeuen hilled city, and other Churches, as ſubiugated to her, and made her hand-maides, or rather ſlaues. But wee will follow this queſtion in the generall ſtile and appellation of the Church, as it is here propounded in termes.

Confuted by their owne Bible.

Firſt, we find in it the Churches defection foretold by Moſes, Deut. 31. 16. This people (meaning Iſrael the Church of God then) will fornicate after ſtrange gods, forſake me, &c. Foretold by the Prophet Azariah, 2. Chron. 15. 2. Many dayes ſhall paſſe in Iſrael without the true God, without Prieſt, a Teacher, and without the Law. Foretold by Saint Paul, 2. Theſ. 2. 2, 12. where he ſpeakes of a reuolt, and ſuch a reuolt, as thereby the Man of ſinne gets vp to ſeate himſelfe in the Temple of God, drawing to him ſuch as hauehave not a louelove of the truth. Foretold by Saint Peter, 2. Pet. 2. 1. In you, lying Maſters, which ſhall bring in ſects of perdition. By Saint Iohn in his Reuelation, where the Church is foreſhewed to proue a bloody Whore, Chap. 17. Now what is foretold, certainely doth, or ſhall come to paſſe. Therefore the Church may erre.

Secondly, wee find in their owne Bible, that the Prophets in p. 89old time found the Church guiltie, not onelyonly of morall crimes, but alſo of errors in doctrine, Eſay 48. 4, 5, 8. and in Ezech. 16. 15, 35. where ſhe is ſet out as a lewd Strumpet. And in Chap. 20. 8. raxed for idolatrie aforetime. The Prophecie of Ieremie condemneth the Church in his time for many abominations committed in Ieruſalem, and in Egypt. Our Sauiour found the Church at his comming corrupted with falſe doctrine, the leauen of the Scribes and Phariſes; warning his Diſciples to take heed thereof, Mat. 16. 6, 12. How the Churches of Galatia did erre, and were bewitched, Saint Paul telleth vsus, Gal. 1. and 3. and 4. And the Churches in Aſia, as Pergamus, and Thyatira are taxed, and found fault with, Reuel. 2.

Thirdly, we find in their Bible by the hiſtorie thereof, that the Church hath erred euen from the very beginning.

I. In Paradiſe our firſt Parents, the firſt Church that euer God had, and the moſt perfect for knowledge, holineſſe and righteouſneſſe; yet this Church erred, and fell fearefully; in adding to Gods Word, in taking from it, and in beleeuing the deuill before God. What Church is it then, which may not erre?

II. After their caſting out of Paradiſe, till the Flood, the Church, that is, the ſonnes of God, went vntounto the daughters of men, by which mixture the whole earth became corrupted, Gen. 6. which error in fact came out of a dogmaticall error in iudgement.

III. From the Flood to Abraham; in which ſpace we reade of open rebellion againſt God, Gen. 11. and that there was idolatrie committed in the Church by Thare and Nachor in Meſopotamia, from amongſt whom Abraham was called out, Ioſh. 24. 2, 14.

IV. From Abrahams comming into Canaan, till Iſraels comming out of Egypt. In this ſpace idolatrie was crept into the Church; into Iacobs Family, Gen. 35. 2. And Iſrael is taxed for committing idolatry in Egypt, Ioſh. 24. 14. and for being obſtinate therein, Ezech. 20. 8. and 16. 15, 35. and 23. 8.

V. In Iſraels going into Canaan, during their aboade in the Wilderneſſe; they erred in heart alwaies, they knew not the p. 90Lords wayes, but mightily prouoked him, Pſal. 94. 9, 10, 11. and they committed horrible idolatry, both Aaron the chiefe Prieſt, the Heads of the people, beſides the reſt, Exod. 32. 4, 5, 8, 31. They were a peruerſe generation, of which reade Pſal. 77. 8. 10, 16, 17, 18, 19, 36, 40, 41, 56, 57. the whole Pſalme ſheweth, that they greatly erred.

VI. In Canaan in the dayes of the Iudges, how often fell they into horrible idolatry, ſeruing other gods, and doing what liked themſelues, Iudg. 2. 10, 11, 12, 13. and 5. 8. and 6. 25, 26. and 8. 33. and 9. 4. 27. and 10. 6. and 21. 25. In Ely his time was a miſerable ſtate of the Church and Religion, 1. Sam. 2. In Sauls time men did not ſeeke to the Arke of God, 1. Chron. 13. 3.

VII. From Salomons reigne, to the captiuitie, were great abominations. Salomon ſet vp, or fauoured in others the ſetting vp of idolatrie, the remainders whereof continued vntounto Ioſiah his dayes. The ten Tribes fell to idolatrie, and neuer returned. Iudah often committed great wickedneſſe, as in the dayes of Rehoboam, Iehoram, Amaziah, Ioas, Ahaz, Manaſſes, Amon, and other Kings, which ſucceeded godly Ioſias; and the people are often complained of to hauehave done corruptly, and to hauehave ſinned againſt God, euen in good Kings daies, 2. Chron. 17. 2. and 33. 17. and 36. 14. for which God heauily plagued them, 2. Chr. 28. 6. For more euidence of the euils in this ſpace, reade the Prophets, Eſay 48. 45. and 56. 10, 11. Ier. 2. 27, 28. and 3. 1, 2. and 5. 31. and 6. 14. Ezech. 69, 11, 12, 15. Hoſea 2. 2.

VIII. From thence to Chriſt: The Prieſts, as Malachi witneſſeth, had departed out of the way, and made voide the Couenant, Mal. 2. 8. had deſpiſed and polluted his name, Mal. 1. 6, 12. they did not lay to heart his commandements, Mal. 2. 2. Iudah is accuſed to hauehave tranſgreſſed, and that abominations were done in Iſrael, and in Ieruſalem, that they had contaminated the ſanctification of the Lord, and had the daughter of a ſtrange god, Mal. 2. 11. In the ſecond of Machabees we may reade of horrible corruptions in the high Prieſts. Iaſon got the office by money brought his Country-men to the Heathen rites; the Prieſts were not occupied about the offices of the Altar, but the p. 91Temple and Sacrifices were neglected, 2. Machab. 4. 7, 11, 14. And when our Sauiour was come, he found many ſects, falſe Teachers corrupting the truth, Matth. 6. and 16. 6, 12. and 23. 16, 22. & was by the outward pretending domineering Church then in Councell condemned, and put to death. To conclude of the chiefe Rulers in this Church, the ſaying of Steuen, that they were ſtiffe-necked, and vncircumciſed in heart and eares, alwaies reſiſting the holy Ghoſt, Act. 7. Who can reade theſe things, and thinke yet, that the Church cannot erre; if withall they would conſider, how this Church of Iſrael had the moſt excellent meanes for direction and confirmation?

I. They had the written Word, and ordinary Teachers, the Prieſts and Leuites daily inſtructing them, Deut. 33. 10. Acts 15. 21.

II. They had extraordinary teaching; 1. By God himſelfe from Heauen, Exod. 20. By Vrim and Thummim, by Viſion and Dreames. 2. By Prophets, Moſes, Samuel, Eliah, Eliſha, and very many moe. 3. By Kings endued with a Propheticall Spirit, as Dauid and Salomon. 4. At length, by Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe perſonally. 5. By the twelue Apoſtles, Mat. 10. 6. By the 70. diſciples, Luk. 10. 1. Neuer ſuch, nor ſo many in any Church, ſince God had a Church.

III. They had Miracles and wonders in bringing them out of Egypt, in the fearefull giuing of the Law, in carrying them thorow the Wolderneſſe, in planting them in Canaan, and in ſtrange Miracles wrought in Eliah and Eliſha's time, and in ſome of the Kings of Iudah. Chriſt confirmed his doctrine, and ſo did the Apoſtles and Diſciples their teaching by Miracles, Luk. 10. 17. No Church vnderunder the Heauen had euer the like.

IV. They had great mercies and vnheard of deliuerances from their Enemies: from Pharaoh and his Hoſt drowned in the Red Sea: from the Amalekites, diſcomfited by Moſes prayer: from the innumerable multitude of Enemies, the Kings of Canaan, of Midian, Philiſtims, Syrians, Aſſyrians: from the Hoſt of Sennacherib nine ſcore thouſand ſlaine by an Angell in one night, Kings thirtie two, beſides Benhadad, with an infinite Hoſte defeated, by onelyonly 7000. and odde: Ionathan and his Armour-bearer p. 92did terrifie an whole Campe: Gideon and three hundred men made an innumerable multitude to ſhe away, and with a few other of Ephraim, did ſlay of them in one day one hundred and twenty thouſand: Aſa vanquiſhed the Army of the Ethiopians, ten hundred thouſand, beſides three hundred Charets. Iehoſaphat gathered the ſpoile of his enemies, three Kings comming with their Hoſts againſt him, whom God ſet one againſt another, to deſtroy vtterly one another for his ſafetie and enriching. What ſhall I ſpeake of Hoſtes flying for feare without any purſuing of them? For other bleſſings and mercies they are not to be numbred.

V. They had ſtrange and moſt terrible puniſhments vponupon them, to keep them in the feare of God, to make them to know him, and to walke in his waies: fire from Heauen deuouring vp ſome, the earth ſwallowing vp quicke other-ſome, the giuing of them often into the hands of Heathen Kings to oppreſſe them, that they might turne from Idolatry; yea, at length ſent them all into captiuitie for 70. yeeres.

Thus we ſee, for Teachers, for Wonders and Miracles, for Mercies and Iudgements, none euer to be compared to them. Papiſts may fame Legends to parallel theſe; but theſe are truths, hauing witneſſe from Gods Word it ſelfe. And yet this Church erred, and as Eſay ſaith, chap. 48 4, 8. was ſtubborne, had a neck as an Iron ſinew, and her forehead as braſſe, and was a tranſgreſſour from the wombe.

If the Papiſts make little account of theſe reaſons, as nothing to keepe a Church from erring; yet is it much more then their Romiſh Church can ſay for her ſelfe. Let them ſay what they can for the Churches not erring, and we will ſee whether this Church of Iſrael cannot ſay the ſame alſo.

Yet for all theſe ſo gracious promiſes, ſhe erred, ſhe hath fallen away, and remaineth in her ſinnes.

We hauehave heard out of their owne Bible; Firſt, how the Churches defection hath beene foretold.

Secondly, how ſhe alſo hath beene found guiltie.

Thirdly, the ſame proued by Hiſtorie of the Bible, from the beginning in Adam and Eue, till Chriſt, though the Church of Iſrael had admirable meanes to vphold it: to which I do adde this laſt.

From Chriſts comming, till Iohns being in Pathmos. In this ſpace we may finde errours in the Church. The Apoſtles themſelues before Chriſts Aſcenſion, were in an error touching Chriſt his Kingdome, dreaming of a temporall kingdome, Act. 1. 6. Luk. 24. 21. of reſtoring the kingdome to Iſrael, and redeeming them: ſo as they did ſtriue among themſelues, which of them ſhould be greateſt, Luk 22. 24. and hereupon it was, that the mother of Zebedees children deſired of him for her ſonnes, that one might ſit in his Kingdome, on the right hand, and the other on the left, Mat. 20. 20, 21. Their knowledge was very imperfect; for it is ſaid often, that they vnderſtood not many things, Mat 15. 16. Luk. 9. 45. and 10. 34. Ioh. 12. 16. and 29. yea, ſo ſlow of heart, and dull of hearing they were, that Chriſt telleth them, that he had many things to ſay to them, but that then they were not able to beare thē, Ioh. 16. 12. their faith was verie weake, as appeareth by his calling of them, p. 96Ye of little faith, Mat. 8. 26 and 16. 8. Slow of heart to beleeue what the Prophets had ſpoken, Luk. 24. 25. Alſo by their forſaking him, and flying from him when he was taken, Mat. 26 56.

After Chriſts Aſcenſion, and the comming downe of the holy Ghoſt, they were ignorant for a time in this, that they did not thinke it was lawfull to go to the Gentiles; as we may ſee in Peter, Act. 10 15. 20. and the other Iewes, verſ. 45. compared with Cap. 11. 2, 3, 18, 19. The Churches of Galatia erred ſo, as S. Paul ſaid, that he feared leſt hee had laboured in vaine, Gal. 4. 11. I neede not here ſpeake of errors, and Hereſies creeping in, troubling the Church, and deceiuing many, as in Act. 15. 2. 1. Tim 1. 3 6, 7, 19. 20. 2. Tim 2. 18, 19. 1. Cor. 15. 12. Epheſus fell from her firſt louelove, Reu. 2. 4 Pergamus had in her ſuch as vpheld the doctrine of Balaam, and of the Nicolaitans, Reu. 2 14. Thyatira tolerated Iezabel to reach and ſeduce Chriſts ſeruants, Reu. 2. 20. Sardis was an hypocriticall Church, and in a dying condition, and Laodicea lukewarme, rich in conceit, but miſerable; naked, blinde, and poore in condition, Reu. 3. 2, 16 17. S. Paul telleth Timothy, that all that were in Aſia were departed from him, 2. Tim. 1. 15. Thus was the Churches ſtate euen in the Apoſtles dayes. By which we may ſee the Church ſubiect to erre: and to hold the contrary, that ſhe cannot erre, Antiquitie is againſt.

Contraried by Antiquitie.

Origen, Hom. 6. in Ezek. The Citie of God, as long as ſhe erreth not, or doth not ſinne, hath God to her Father: but when ſhe beginneth to erre, her father is an Amorite, and her mother an Hittite: he then thought ſhe might erre.

Ierome complaineth in Dialog. aduerſ. Lucifer. That the whole world groaned and wondered to ſee it ſelfe Arian. Did not he thinke then that the Church might erre?

Aug. lib. 2. cap 18. Retract. ſpeaking of the Church on earth, ſaith, that by reaſon of ignorance and infirmities of her members, the whole Church hath cauſe to ſay eueryevery day, Forgiue vsus our treſpaſſes. p. 97Baſil, epiſt. 70. telleth vsus, that Satan had in his time begun to ſow the ſeedes of Apoſtaſie in thoſe places, where the Goſpell of the Kingdome firſt aroſe vp, ſtriuing to ſpread it into the whole World. He ſpeakes of Apoſtaſie, which is more then erring.

What meant Hilarie, cont. Auxentium, when he ſaid, The Church is loſt, and wee are fallen into the time of Antichriſt, whoſe miniſters do transforme themſelues into Angels of light, without all feeling, or conſcience of Chriſt?

Vincent. Lvren, aduerſ. profan. Nou. ca. 4. hath ſaid, that not only ſome portion of the Church, but the whole Church it ſelfe is blotted with ſome new contagion.

Gaineſaid by ſome of their owne.

Pope Innocent ſaith in the Canon Law; The Churches IudgementDecret. Greg. li. 3. de ſent. excom. ca. 28. A nobis eſt ſaepe. Super 5. de ſent. excom. Anobis 2. oftentimes followeth opinion, which many times falleth out both to deceiue vsus, and to be deceiued it ſelfe.

Panormitan thus writeth: A generall Councell repreſenting the whole Church, may erre in excommunicating him, that ſhould not bee excommunicate. If in a matter of this nature, where proofes may bee brought before ſentence pronounced, how much more in points of a higher nature, without the Scripture for the guide? A generall Councell is called the whole Church repreſentadue. If therfore this erre, thē may the Church erre; for how can the Churches voyce elſe be heard, except inCan. 6. the Scriptures? But by their owne confeſſion, generall Councels hauehave erred; for the firſt Councell at Nice of 318. Biſhops, made the Biſhop of Romes gouernment no more, then that of Alexandria. That at Epheſus of 200. Biſhops, with the Councell at Chalcedon of 630. Biſhops, gaue to the See of Conſtantinople equall priuiledge with Rome. But in theſe things, ſay the Papiſts, the Councels erred; therefore in ſome things generall Councels may erre, euen in that point which to the Papiſts is moſt fundamentall, being the very ſoule and eſſence of Popery in that part which conſiſteth in vſurpation, and tyrannous dominion ouer all other Churches.

p. 98The Scriptures obiected, anſwered.

Eſay 59. 21. This is my Couenant with them: My Spirit that is vponupon thee, and my words, which I hauehave put into thy mouth, ſhall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy ſeed, nor out of the mouth of thy ſeedes ſeede, ſaith the Lord, from henceforth, and for euer.

Anſw. 1. I anſwere, that the Prophet ſpeakes here of Gods Couenant with them, that is, with thoſe that turne from tranſgreſſion in Iacob, and ſo of the faithfull and elect, and not of the Church viſible, of which we ſpeake.

II. Here is no promiſe, that the Church ſhall not erre; but that he will beſtow on them, which exerciſe the Miniſtery, his Spirit, and his Word continually for the Churches good.

III. If he will needs hence conclude, that the Church cannot erre: 1. He muſt proue, that the Teachers doe euer teach the truth by Gods Spirit, and by Gods Word, which are to go together, Ioh. 14. 26. and 16. 13. Mat. 18. 19, 20. 2. That the hearers, the members of the Church, doe euer receiue, beleeue and follow their Teachers thus teaching by the Word and holy Spirit, which two things reſt for him to make good ad Graecas Calendas.

IV. This promiſe made, muſt needs be vnderſtood conditionally of the viſible Church, and of an ordinary Miniſtery: for Eſay tells vsus afterwords, how they vexed Gods Spirit, chap. 63. 10. We ſee how the Church of the Iſraelites, and that at Ieruſalem hath been caſt off of God, and hath now neither Word nor Spirit of God to direct it. Chriſt found her Teachers in his time full of errors, as they grieuouſly erred before, 2. King. 16. 11. 2. Chron. 36. 14, 16. Eſay 56. 10. Ier. 5. 1. Mal. 2. 8. And we know by experience in our times, and by faithfull relation aforetimes, that Teachers hauehave erred; and people hauehave not euer embraced the truth, when ſound Teachers hauehave deliuered it; let Chriſts hearers be inſtance for all, and thoſe in Iury which heard the Apoſtles.

V. If this were a good argument, where Gods Spirit and his p. 99Word is, there can be no errour; then would it follow, that no ordinary member of Chriſt ſhould euer erre; for ſuch a one hath Gods Spirit, 1. Ioh. 2. 20, 27. Rom. 8. 9. 2. Cor. 1. 21. and his Word, Deut. 33. 3. by which they become beleeuers, Ioh. 17. 20. But this, I hope, a Papiſt will not grant, and yet the argument is the ſame.

Ioh. 14. 16. I will pray the Father, and he ſhall giuegive you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for euer, euen the Spirit of truth.

Anſw. 1. This place is primarily to be vnderſtood of the Apoſtles, to whom the promiſe of guiding into all truth, was a ſpeciall priuiledge, Mat. 10. 20. Ioh. 14. 26. and 16. 13.

2. Of the ſucceeding Teachers, but with no ſuch ſpeciall priuiledge: for firſt, there are no ſuch promiſes made to them. Secondly, experience teacheth, that they hauehave wanted this priuiledge. Thirdly, the hearers hauehave libertie to ſearch and trie that which is deliuered, if they doubt, 1. Theſ. 5. 21. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. Ioh. 5. 39. Act. 17. 11. Waldenſis, one of their owne ſide, ſaithLi. 2. ca. 19. de Doct. ſid. of particular Paſtors and Biſhops, We know that theſe hauehave often erred.

3. Neither the abiding of the Spirit for euer where it is, nor the title of Spirit of truth will enforce euer an infallibility in teaching; for it is called the Spirit of ſanctification or holineſſe, Rom. 1. 4. for that he worketh in vsus holineſſe, and is euer abiding in the godly, who are the Temple of the holy Ghoſt; and yet are they not ſo ſanctified, but they often offend in life. So is it the Spirit of truth, becauſe it enlightneth the minds of men with onelyonly that which is truth, and guideth them in the truth, if they follow their guide: but if they doe not, they may, yea, and doe erre from the truth.

Mat. 18. 17. If he neglect to heare the Church, let him be to thee as an Heathen, and a Publican.

Anſw. 1. This is meant of an euident caſe proued by witneſſes before the Church in matters of offence, betweene one priuate man and another; wherein the Church may giuegive right ſentence, if ſhe will; yet we ſee, ſuch as meddle in the Churches cenſures, doe not euer proceede aright. This place therefore is p. 100not to the matter of doctrine and determination of faith, the point in queſtion; neither doth it proue, that in her cenſure the Church cannot erre: for ſaith their owne Panormitan, as before is cited, A generall Councell repreſenting the whole Church, may erre, in excommunicating him that ſhould not be excommunicate. Theſe words ſpeake not of the Churches either not erring or erring, but of other hearing the Church, and how they ſhould carry themſelues towards ſuch, as will not in ſo cleare a caſe heare the Churches admonition.

3. Its not here commanded, that he ſhould be held as a Heathen and Publican, that would not heare the Church in whatſoeuer ſhe ſaith: for Chriſt here ſpeakes of the Iewiſh Church then, as appeareth by the name Heathen and Publican, which were abhorred of the Iewiſh Church. Now, that Church (wee reade) did excommunicate a blind man (which receiued ſight) for his profeſſing of Chriſt, Ioh. 9. 34. and had agreed to put any man out of the Synagogue, which ſhould confeſſe Ieſus to bee Chriſt, v 22. and did alſo forbid to teach in his name, Act. 4. 18.

4. This place is ſpoken of ſome Eccleſiaſticall Gouernours, (if it be extended to vsus) hauing the power of cenſures in a particular Church; which the Learned in their Church doe confeſſe, may erre; and therefore this helpes not to proue, that the Church cannot erre.

Eſay 35. 8. And a high way ſhall be there, and away, and it ſhall be called. The way of holineſſe, the vncleane ſhall not paſſe ouer it, but it ſhall be for thoſe: the way-faring men, though fooles, ſhall not erre therein.

Anſw. I. This verſe is wholly allegoricall, and therfore cannot ſo well be inforced for dogmaticall proofe, without a full explanation of the words; which the Gagger ſhould hauehave done.

II. It is altogether againſt himſelfe in the expoſition, if hee either durſt, or had been able to hauehave ſet it downe: for by highway may be vnderſtood the common profeſſion or points of Religion, for good and bad, as the high-way is for all; then the way of holineſſe is taken for a more ſtrict profeſſion, or more ſtraight Rules of Religion. If ſo, then conſider the perſons who they bee, that ſhall not erre in this way: hee doth not ſay, The p. 101Church, or the learned Church men, or men in holy Orders; for are theſe fooles? but wayfaring men, though fooles, ſhall not erre. Here is a promiſe, that the ſimple Laytie ſhall not miſtake their way; which Popiſh Teachers cannot abide to heare of. Neither ſhall any vncleane paſſe ouer this way: but they teach, that their Church Catholike conſiſts of elect and reprobate, both good and bad, cleane and vncleane. Therefore in a ſpirituall ſenſe the words are to be vnderſtood of the onelyonly ſanctified by Gods Spirit, here trauelling in this World as wayfaring men; and though eſteemed as fooles, yet are ſo guided in their holy profeſſion, as they ſhall not bee ſuffered to wander out of the way of life, neither totally nor finally. But he will ſay, If theſe ſhall not erre, then much leſſe ſhall the Church. True, who denies it? we doe not ſay, that all the whole Church, and all the holy that euer hauehave been, ſuch as this place ſpeaketh of, hauehave all erred this thouſand yeeres, as the Gagger beares his Reader in hand, making him beleeue, that we ſo teach. Here the Prophet ſpeakes of the Lords redeemed ſeparated from the vncleane, in a ſpirituall eſtate, in and by Chriſt; but in our diſpute we ſpeake of the viſible Church of cleane and vncleane, good and bad, and of a mixt company.

III. This verſe, and the whole chapter, ſpeakes in the firſt place, of the returne from Captiuitie, which the Prophet doth expreſſe in figuratiue ſpeeches, to ſet out the comfort thereof moſt liuely: and ſo it is nothing to the purpoſe, for which the Gagger brings it. In a high ſenſe it ſets out the ſpirituall happineſſe of the redeemed by Chriſt, partly here begun, and fully to be perfected in the day of the Churches perfect redemption.

IV. It ſpeakes not here of the Churches teaching, but rather of the Saints trauailing towards Heauen: But the word, not erre, made the Gagger thinke, he had obtained his purpoſe, and an expreſſe text for not erring in Doctrine, when the words ſpeake of a way, a high-way, of trauailing men, and others not paſſing ouer it, and of the redeemeds walking, verſ. 9. Then being vnderſtood of not erring in life, it cannot be taken abſolutely: for error of life is in the beſt, but they erre not to finall deſtruction.

p. 102Epheſ. 5. 27. That hee might preſent it to himſelfe a glorious Church, not hauing ſpot or wrinkle, or any ſuch thing, but that it ſhould be holy and without blemiſh.

Anſw. 1. Our diſpute is of the viſible Church, and mixt company; this is to be vnderſtood only of the body, whereof Chriſt in the moſt proper ſenſe, is the Head and Sauiour, verſ. 9. which hee nouriſheth and cheriſheth, verſ. 29. betweene whom and Chriſt thereis ſuch an vnion, as it is called a great Myſtery, verſ. 32. which cannot properly be meant of viſible Churches, conſiſting not onelyonly of Elect, but alſo of Reprobates, who are not clenſed, nor nouriſhed, or cheriſhed, as members of his body, nor made euer glorious.

II. The Apoſtle ſpeakes heere of the Church either as triumphant, or, if as militant, then as it is in preparing, and as it ſhall bee hereafter in Heauen: for in this life, it is not altogether ſpotleſſe, without wrinkle or blemiſh, Cant. 1. 5, 6.

III. This place doth ſerue rather to prooue her puritie in life, then infallibilitie of iudgement in teaching: this latter is hence farre fetched; the former may ſeeme more apparant. But will any beleeue, that Gods Church for life and conuerſation, is in this life without ſpot, wrinkle or blemiſh?

1. Tim. 3. 15. The Church of the liuing God, the ground and pillar of truth.

Becauſe this place is much vrged by others, and the laſt of this Gaggers, I will more fully make anſwer vntounto it. Hence hee would conclude, that the Church cannot erre; he meaneth the Church of Rome, the Pope, at leaſt, the virtuall Church; for they defend not now any Church from errour, but their owne. But this they can neuer proue out of the place.

I. Saint Paul wrote to Timothy, how he ſhould behaue himſelfe in the Church, 1. Tim. 3. 14. So his Epiſtle, that is, the Apoſtolicall written Word, was made to be Timothies rule, to guide him from erring, and not the Churches determination. S. Paul, for all this his praiſe of the Church, ſent him not to Her, but preſcribed him a written Word, to direct him in gouerning of her, which hee would not hauehave done, if by calling the Church, the p. 103pillar and ground of truth, he had meant ſhe could not hauehave erred.

II. Saint Paul ſpeaketh thus of the then preſent Church of Epheſus, where Timothy was, chap. 1. 3. built vponupon the foundation, Epheſ. 2. 20. and yet ſhe ſoone left her firſt LoueLove, Reuel. 2. 4. and after fell away.

III. The word Church comprehendeth all the faithfull together at Epheſus: ſo the Church of Epheſus is taken, Reuel. 2. 1. But our Aduerſaries will not hauehave the people (as the Apoſtles allowed, Act. 15. 22.) with their Biſhops and Paſtors, to be the Church, and with them to approue of matters of Faith: For the Romiſh Clergie thinke of the people, as did the hypocriticall Phariſes, that they know not the Law, and are curſed, Ioh. 7. 49. Except they allow the people alſo with the Teachers, to be the pillar and ground of truth, this place doth not ſerue their turne.

IV. If the word Church bee taken for any other particular Church, to which Timothie, as an Euangeliſt, might goe, after the Apoſtles planting of them, then from hence the Papiſts cannot conclude that which they would: for firſt, they acknowledge, that particular Churches may erre. Secondly, its euident by Scripture, in the Churches of Galatia, Gal. 1. and 3. 1. and 4. 10, 11. by hiſtorie, and by experience. Now, the Church of Rome was neuer other then a particular Church, in the beſt ſpirituall eſtate thereof. Saint Paul writes to it no otherwiſe, then to a particular Church.

V. If it be taken for the Vniuerſall Church; this helpes not them. For firſt, theirs is not the vniuerſall, but a particular Church, as is proued after in the ſixteenth queſtion.

Secondly, it is abſurd to reaſon from that which is not queſtioned, nor can euer aſſemble together to come to the triall, if it were queſtionable.

VI. The intituling of the Church, to bee the pillar and ground of truth, wil not afford the concluſion of not erring, and that for theſe Reaſons. Firſt, becauſe the words are metaphoricall, and a ſimilitude muſt be extended no farther then is in ended. Now, the Church is called the pillar and ground, not becauſe p. 104ſhee cannot erre: but firſt, for that ſhe hath the Apoſtles writings committed to her, as were the Oracles of God to the Iewes, Rom 3. 2. which Apoſtles writings are (ſaith Irenous) the pillars and ſupporters of our faith; the proofes, foundations, Li. 3. ca. 1.and the grounds of our cauſe, as Saint **De vnit. Eccl. ca. 16. On this 1. Tim. 3.1 Tim 3Auguſtine ſpeakes. Secondly, as Lyra thinkes, it is ſo called, for that the Church doth maintaine the truth of the Goſpell, euen in the greateſt perſecutions: and, as other iudge, for that it vpholdeth the truth, that it may not fall to the ground, though it be afflicted; and becauſe by words and examples it confirmes our Faith. Thirdly, the Apoſtle ſpeakes according to the vſe of pillars in old time among the Gentiles, on which their Lawes, written in Tables, were hanged vp for people to reade: yea, ſome wrote the Lawes vponupon pillars themſelues. So as the Church here is reſembled to thoſe pillars, which hath the Bookes of holy Lawes, to ſhew them, and to vphold them, and to exhibite them out vntounto all to bee ſeene and read.

Secondly, becauſe Saint Peter was counted a Pillar, Gal. 2 9. and yet he erred, euen in not walking according to the truth of the Goſpell, verſ. 14.

Thirdly, becauſe Saint Paul calleth ſo the Church at Epheſus then, as ſhe was, and ſo long to be ſo eſteemed as ſhe ſhould continue. Thus Saint Paul to the Hebrewes telleth them, that they with himſelfe and others, are the Houſe of Chriſt, if (ſaith he) we hold faſt the confidence, and the reioycing of the hope firme vntounto the end: implying, that if they did not, they ſhould not be ſo. Can any well conclude from that, which one is at the preſent, that he ſhall euer be the ſame? Then had not our firſt Parents fallen; nor Salomon been an Idolater; nor the Iſraelites now, none of Gods people; nor Rome, (as ſhe is) ſpirituall Babylon.

Fourthly, becauſe not the name and title of the Houſe of God it ſelf (by which name the Church is called here, in 1. Tim. 3. 15. as alſo beleeuers are called by the name of the houſhold of God, Epheſ. 2. 19.) will afford this their concluſion. For the Church of Epheſus, ſo called, did erre. Now, may it not be inferred from hence, that ſhe is called the Houſe, and beleeuers the Houſhold? p. 105and may it be inferred, becauſe ſhe is called a pillar only, or ſtay, to vphold the houſe? Will not the whole houſe, nor the houſehold yeeld it? And will a pillar, or prop, make it good? Very vnlikely.

Fifthly, it is onelyonly vponupon the praiſe giuen to the Church, that this concluſion is made. Is this then good arguing; Whatſoeuer prayſes the Church hath, that for which, or wherein ſhee is prayſed, ſhe hath it in perfection? Here ſhe is called the pillar and ground of truth: Ergo, (ſay they) ſhe cannot erre. See the like reaſoning; She is the houſhold of Faith, Gal. 6. 10. Ergo, ſhe neuer hath any doubting. Yet this they deny, and hold here to hauehave no certaine aſſurance.

Laſtly, conſider the truth, of which ſhee is the pillar and ground. **On this place, Ioh. 5. 23John 5:23Oecumenius vnderſtands it in oppoſition to the ſhaddowes in the Temple vnderunder the Law; there the type, here the truth; there the ſhadow, here the ſubſtance. But the Temple was onelyonly the pillar and ground, that is, the appointed place where the knowledge and vſe of the Ceremoniall Law was had and vpheld: ſo onelyonly is now the Church, the place where the diuine truth is to be found, and is in practice, and no where elſe. Truth in Scripture is taken for the Word of God, Ioh. 17. 17. and 8. 31, 32. the Goſpell, the Word of truth, Col. 1. 5. Gal. 5. 7. euen the Myſtery of godlineſſe, as Saint Paul in this place of the 1. Tim. 3. 16. enterpreteth the Word, Truth.

So then, the Church of God is the pillar and ground or ſtay of Gods Word and his Goſpell, euen the myſterie of godlineſſe. This ſhe receiueth, keepeth, beareth vp, publiſheth to the world, and is the ground whereon it doth reſt, and no where elſe in the world. What then? Is ſhe, or it the Rule? Is her authoritie aboue it, or it aboue her? The King committeth to ſome the publike Records, to keepe and to publiſh to other. Is their authoritie greater then theſe? Are their words of force, without the warrant of thoſe Records? Or is it not poſſible for theſe keepers of them, to erre in their proceedings? We know the contrary. The Iewes had the Oracles of God committed to them, Rom. 3. 2. but hauehave not they erred? The Church of Corinth, Epheſus, Galatia, Philippi, Coloſſe, Theſſalonica, Hebrewes, p. 106and other Churches in the Eaſt, had the new Teſtament committed to them; yet hauehave they, we ſee, erred. So hath the Church of Rome very ſhamefully, as the Epiſtle written to them doth teſtifie, if her now new doctrine be examined by it. The Church therefore, the viſible mixt company, of whom all our diſpute is, may erre.