Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 14 – Article 15
The 14. article hath 5. demandes.
1 Alſo I demande what furniture or commodity in ſeruing God the Chriſtianity of any age, or any part of Chriſtendome had euer by your Congregations?
THe ſeruice of God hath ſmall neede of furniture in outwarde thinges: for God being a ſpirite, is not worſhipped with outward pompe but with ſpirituall and inwarde reuerence. And as for other furniture that is neceſſary, was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Conſtantine and his ſucceſſors, that were of our Church, before the reuelatiō of Antichriſt. Notwithſtāding the Church was in better caſe, before ſuch furniture was graunted, than it was ſince. Therefore it is a ſmall reaſon to chalenge the Church of Chriſt by outwarde furniture.
2 VVhat Churches did you builde for your aſſemblies and ſeruice?
OVr aſſemblies were kept in ſecret places, long time after Chriſtes Aſcenſion, in moſt cuntries, that were ſubiect to the Romane empire. Wherefore the building of materiall churches proueth nothing at all the builders to be members of the myſtical Church, that is the body of Chriſt. Howbeit in ſuch realmes and cuntries where the faith of Chriſt, was receiued by publike authoritie, as in this lande of Brytaine, there were churches builded as our Chronicles declare. And when Conſtantinus had geuen peace to the Church: he alſo builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Baſilicas, for our aſſemblies and ſeruice.
3 VVhat Biſhoprickes for the gouernment of the Church did you finde?
AS the church continued longe without materiall churches, ſo alſo without large poſſeſſions, for the lyuing of biſhops, yet in Brytiſh Church our hiſtories make mention that the poſſeſſions and places of the Pagane Flamines, and Archiflamines were conuerted to the vſe of Eccleſiaſtical biſhops and archbiſhops, ſo ſoon as Lucius, the king receiued the faith. Alſo the ſame hiſtories do teſtifie, that when Auguſtine came into Britayn, there were ſtill 7. biſhops and one archbiſhop among the Britaines. And in the Romane Empier Conſtantinus, and other Chriſtian Emperors appointed great poſſeſſions for the mainteyning of the miniſters of the Church.
4 VVhat Vniuerſities, Schooles, or Colledges, did you euer erect?
THe Church of God hath alwayes had ſchooles, or Vniuerſities for the mainteinance of godly learning. For the firſt Colledges of monkes in ſolitary places, were nothing els, but Colledges of ſtudentes, that were after, as occaſion ſerued, taken to ſerue in the Church, as appereth by Chryſoſtome in his booke De Sacerdotio, where he ſheweth yt Baſilius, who was a Monke with him, was taken by violence and made a miniſter of the church, as he him ſelfe was afterwarde. Alſo in the biſhops houſe was a colledge of ſtudentes: and our hiſtories teſtifie, that at Bangor, in Wales was a great Vniuerſitie of learned men. Alſo of late dayes, you may heare that diuerſe Vniuerſities, Scholes, and Colleges are erected by Proteſtants, in Germanie, and other contries that hauehave receiued the goſpel: As at Wittemberge, Geneua, Zuriche, Conigſperge in Pruſſia, &c.
5 Name one Church, not builded in all faſhions, as well for the making of the chancells, the forme of the aultars, the vſe of the chalices, the ſignification of the veſtiments, as alſo for the ſpeciall intent of the builders thereof. Name one of them in the whole Church of Chriſt, either erected for your Faith, Church, & ſeruice, or not prepared, in all ſorts for catholike practiſes: Proue vntounto me that any of all thoſe thinges were euer prouided for any other ſeruice and Religion then ours, or that they be monuments of any other Fayth and Church then the common Catholike, and I recant.
HEre are many wordes to litle purpoſe. What if it were graunted that all churches that now remaine were builded by Papiſtes, and for popiſh vſes, what had you wonne thereby. The ſame chalenge might the Idolaters hauehave made to the Apoſtles: Shew vsus a temple in all the worlde that was not builded by Idolaters, and to mainteyne Idolatrie? Certeinly they could ſhew none when the Temple of Ieruſalem was deſtroyed. But for all your bragges, we are able to ſhewe that ſuch Churches as were builded by true Chriſtians were not builded to ſuch ende as yours are: for they were all builded in the honour of God, and the moſt of yours in the honour of creatures: for wheras you hauehave one Church in the honour of Chriſt, you hauehave neare a thouſand in the honour of Sainctes: For Baſilius magnus in his 141. epiſtle proueth ye holy Ghoſt to be God becauſe he hath a Temple. For Omne Templum Dei Templum eſt. EueryEvery temple is the temple of God. Alſo Didymus, in his booke De ſpiritu ſancto, which S. Ieronym tranſlateth, vſeth the ſame reaſon and to the ſame purpoſe. S. Auguſtine in the ſame matter is very plentifull: as in his booke De vera Religione cap. 55, ſpeaking of the Sainctes he ſayth: Quare honoramus eos charitate non ſeruitute, nec eis templa conſtruimus, &c. Wherfore we honour them with louelove and not with ſeruice, neither doe we build temples vntounto them: for they wil not be ſo honored of vsus becauſe they know that we our ſelues when we are good, are the temples of the higheſt. In this ſaying beſide his iudgement for building of temples, note that he will not hauehave Sainctes to be honored with ſeruice, which he calleth ſeruitus, and is the ſame that dulia is, contrary to the Papiſtes which will worſhip them with ſeruice called dulia, or ſeruitus. Alſo in his 174 epiſtle to Paſcentius, he ſayth, the holy Ghoſt could not hauehave our bodies to be tēples except he were God, And in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium, cap. 56. he ſayth: howe ſhould he not be God which hath a temple? Alſo in the 8. booke cap. 27. De ciuitate Dei. Nec tamen nos ijſdem martyribus templa, &c. he ſayeth: Chriſtians builde no temples vntounto Martyrs which were to make them gods. And in the 22, booke cap. 10. De ciuitate Dei. Nos autem Martyribus noſtris non templa ſicut dijs, ſed memorias ſicut hominibus mortuis, quorum apud Deum viuunt ſpiritus fabricamus. Nec ibi erigimus altaria in quibus ſacrificemus martyribus, ſed vni Deo & martyrum & noſtro ſacrificium immolamus: ad quod ſacrificium ſicut homines Dei, qui mundum in eius confeſſione vicerunt, ſuo loco & ordine nominantur, non tamen à ſacerdote qui ſacrificat inuocantur, Deo quippe non ipſis ſacrificat quamuis in memoria ſacrificet eorum, quia Dei ſacerdos eſt non illorum. Ipſum verò ſacrificium corpus eſt Chriſti quod non offertur ipſis quia hoc ſunt & ipſi. that is: We truely do not build temples to our martyrs as vntounto gods, but memories as vntounto dead men whoſe ſoules liue with God. Neither doe we there ſet vp aultars in which we ſhould ſacrifice vntounto the martyrs, but to God onelyonly which is God both of the martyrs and of vsus, doe we offer ſacrifice: at which ſacrifice they are named in their place and order, as men of God which hauehave ouercome the world in his confeſſion: yet are they not called vponupon by the Prieſt that doth ſacrifice, for he offereth ſacrifice to God and not to them although he doe ſacrifice in their memorie, becauſe he is the Prieſt of God and not of them, and the ſacrifice is the body of Chriſt which is not offered vntounto them becauſe they them ſelues are the ſame. Here alſo beſide building of churches, note that no ſacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs, but prayer is a ſacrifice, therefore it ought to be offered onelyonly to God. Secondly, that Martyrs were not called vponupon in tyme of the ſacrifice but onelyonly named for remembrance. Thirdly, that Altares were not builded in the honor of Martyrs or other Sainctes as they be in Popiſh churches: as our Ladies altar. S. Peters altar. S. Laurences altar &c. Fourthly, that the bodie of Chriſt, which he ſayeth was the ſacrifice that was offered, was not the naturall body of Chriſt but his myſticall bodie, becauſe he ſayeth the Martyrs and it are all one, whereby it is manifeſt, that he meaneth the ſacrifice of thankes giuing offered to God for the redemption of his church by the death of Chriſt. Wherfore if this one place were well wayed, it will interpret and aunſwere all places of the auncient doctors, where mention is made of ſacrificing the body of Chriſt at the time of the communion. But to returne to building of churches the ſame Auguſtine, contra Maximinum Arrianum. Lib. Titul. 11. hath theſe wordes: Nunc ſi templum alicui ſancto angelo excellentiſſimo de lignis & lapidibus faceremus, anathematizaremur a veritate Chriſti, & ab Eccleſia Dei, quoniam creaturae exhiberemus eam ſeruitutem quae vni tantum debetur Deo? Si ergo ſacrilegi eſſemus faciendo templum cuicun que creaturae, quomodo non eſt Deus verus cui non templum facimus, ſed nos ipſi templum ſumus? that is: If we ſhoulde builde a temple of wodde and ſtones to any holy and moſt excellent Angel, ſhoulde we not be accurſed from the Trueth of Chriſt and from the Church of God, becauſe we ſhould ſhew that ſeruice vntounto a creature which is due onelyonly vntounto God? Therefore if we ſhoulde be ſacrileges by making a temple to any creature, how is he not true God to whome we doe not make a temple, but we our ſelues are a temple. If this be true, how be not the Papiſtes accurſed from the Trueth of Chriſt, and from the Church of God which builde and vpholde churches to Angells, as S. Michaels, S. Gabriels, &c? So that to builde churches as Papiſtes doe, is church robbing or ſacrilege. Furthermore whereas you will vsus to name one church whoſe chancell is not builded in all faſhions to ſerue poperie. Firſt it is manifeſt that the firſt Churches which were builded for Chriſtians had not the ſame faſhion of chancels and other partes that moſt churches hauehave in Englande, for that purpoſe reade the Panegyricall oration made before Paulinus byſhop of Tyrus. Euſeb. lib. 10. cap. 4. In which is deſcribed the faſhion of that church builded in that citie farre vnlike the moſte parte of churches at this day in all partes, and ſpecially in the chācel which was in the middeſt of that church, a place compaſſed in with grates or wodden lateſſes called Cancelli, wherof this worde chancel is deriued, and the aultar ſtoode in the middeſt of it wherof ſome ſimilitude remaineth yet in olde Cathedrall churches. Contrariwiſe your chancells in moſt churches be at the Eaſtende and the aulter hard at the wall, there was alſo but one alter in that church, but you in eueryevery church muſt hauehave many, it is certaine alſo in their church the Miniſters and Deacons ſtoode rounde about the table or aulter, but ſo they can not about your aultars except ſome of them ſtande on the toppe of the wall or in the windowe. Moreouer if you marke the moſt parte of olde churches in Englande you ſhall plainely ſee, that the chancells are but additions builded ſence the churches, of likelihoode by the parſons that diſdained to hauehave their place in the middeſt of the people as the olde manner was. Alſo you may ſee ſome churches builded rounde: as at London the Temple, and an other is at Cambridge of ye ſame faſhiō. And ſome churches hauehave the ſteple at the Eſt ende, very vnhandſomely for placing of the roode lofte. Againe many churches hauehave croſſe Iſles in which the people can not ſee the chancell, nor the high aultar, which argueth that there was no vſe of ſuch chancells when they were builded: For ſuch churches as are latelie erected hauehave the chancell and church all of one building, and are made of ſuch faſhion that men maye ſee the highe aultar in eueryevery parte of them: Beſide this, in the Orientall church, as their ceremonies are diuers from yours, ſo no doubt the faſhion of their temples differeth from yours. As for chalices, the church in the beginning was cōtent with wodden cuppes, and then came Zepherinus and brought in the vſe of glaſſes. Acacius Amidenus is commended for ſelling the golden and ſiluer veſſells of the church, to redeme captiues. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 21. S. Ambroſe alſo Offic. lib. 2. cap. 8. ſayth the church hath golde, not to kepe it but to be beſtowed for neceſſarie vſes, for which it is lawfull to breake, melt, and ſel, euen the holyeſt veſſells of all. But of your church it is true that one ſaid of olde time: ye had wodden chalices, and golden prieſtes but now you hauehave golden chalices, and wodden prieſtes: your veſtimentes are of as good ſtuffe as your chalices. The olde church knew none ſuch, but as your owne Authors write: when they wente to celebrate they changed the affection of their minde rather than the garmentes of their body: as Antoninus witneſſeth of Fulgentius. Howbeit we are content that your church by her gorgeous garments as well as by other thinges ſhoulde declare it ſelfe to be that woman which is deſcribed to be clothed in purple, golde, perles, and ſuch like ornamentes Apoc. 17. Finally wheras you will vsus to name one church that for the ſpeciall intent of the builders, was not prepared in all ſortes for Popiſh practiſes: Although I could name many, yet for examples ſake, I name Pantheon, a church in Rome, prepared by the ſpeciall and onelyonly intent of the builders for Cybelle, the great mother of the gods and for all falſe gods of the heathen, which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes. Then this church with many other in Rome, and other places, being monuments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours, except yours and theirs be all one, as they are very like, you are bounde by your promiſe to recant.
The 15. article conteyneth in effect 3. demandes.
1 Againe name any one company of men in the Chriſten world that in all articles of Faith, be in one meaning and belefe.
IT is an eaſie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning & beliefe: as the church of the Grecians, the church of the Aethiopians, the church of the Chaldeans, Moſcouites, &c. But eſpecially the whole company of Proteſtantes in Europe doe agree in all neceſſary articles of true faith, by which we are iuſtified.
2 Or in thinges where they doubt, be contented to ſubmit their ſeuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours.
THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Conſtantinople, and ſo will the reſt of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and biſhops. And the Proteſtants in Europe will alſo be ruled by their Superiours, ſo farre as their ſuperiors are ruled by Gods his worde.
3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be, name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Chriſtes Religion, ſauing the bleſſed fellowſhip and members of the Catholike communion, and I recant.
TO the communion and company of the Grecians, I name the Moſcouites and Ruſſians agreeing in Religion, and ſo humbly affected, and theſe are not of the fellowſhip, that you call the Catholike communion: Among the Proteſtants, to the church of Saxonie, I name the church of Dennemarcke, or to the church of Heluetia, the church of France, or to the church of England the church of Scotlande, but ſo, that none of theſe allow any conſent or ſubmiſſion, but to the Truth, which muſt be tried onelyonly by God his worde. And ſeeing none of theſe are of the Popiſh communiō, if your promiſe be any thing worth, you muſt recant.