Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 12 – Article 13
The 12. article hath 3. demandes.
1 Item I aſke what kinde and order of ſeruice, or common prayer, what waye of miniſtring of the ſacraments your duplicate page duplicate page Church had: before Papiſtry (as you call it) did preuaile in the worlde?
IVſtinus Martyr, in his ſecond Apollogie to the Emperour, declareth plainely what order of ſeruice and miniſtration of ſacramentes our Church had before Papiſtry preuayled. On the daye called Sonday (ſayth he) there is a meeting together of all them that dwell in the Citie or in the countrie, and the monumentes of the Apoſtles, or the writinges of the Prophetes are reade vntill it be thought ſufficient, when the reader hath made an ende, he that is our ouerſeer (or cheefe miniſter) maketh a ſermon of admonition and exhortation to follow thoſe good thinges that are reade. After this we all ſtande vp together and make our prayers, and as we hauehave ſaide before, when our prayers are ended, there is brought forth bread and wine & water, and the cheefe miniſter, doth likewiſe with all his might yelde prayers and thankesgeuing, and the people aunſwereth Amen. Then is made diſtribution to eueryevery one and receyuing of thoſe thinges for which thankes was geuen, and to them that be abſent, it is ſent by the deacons. Such as are riche and willing doe geue almes what they will, &c. By this one authoritie, it may be ſeene though other might be brought, what order of ſeruice and miniſtration of ſacraments our Church vſed before Papiſtry gat the vpper hande.
2 Shew one booke of Communion or what els you liſt that was in Engliſh, or lacked prayer for the departed, or inuocation of Sainctes in heauen, or that wanted oblation, or ſacrifice, or that charged a number to receyue, or els that the preeſt coulde not conſecrate nor ſay Maſſe, himſelfe, or ſhew any note in a Communion booke, that the people ſhoulde take the ſacrament for plaine breade, or that they ſhould geue no honor to it, ſhew this booke or any leafe or line of this booke.
IT may trouble a wiſe man to aunſwere all the queſtions that a foole can propounde: you requier to ſee a booke of Communion in Engliſh, or that lacked &c. When it is confeſſed, that the Engliſh nation receiued their religion firſt from Rome, at ſuch time as Religion there was verie corrupt, what marueill is it, if we can not ſhewe you ſuch a Communion booke as you require, but we can eaſily ſhew you out of the ſcripture, the the Communion ought to be miniſtred in the vulgare tongue, that prayer for the deade and to the deade ought not to be vſed, that the ſacrament ought not to be turned into a ſacrifice, that there ought to be a communiō of many receauers and not a priuate maſſe, that the ſubſtance of the bread is not changed, that the elementes of the ſacrament are not to be honored: theſe I ſay we can proue out of the worde of God, the Catholike writers of the olde Church. And though perchaunce, it wilbe harde to finde a communion booke in Engliſh, yet hauehave I founde you a canon of the Laterane Councell, that it ought to hauehave bene tranſlated into Engliſh; yet are there founde diuers monumentes of Antiquitie, as Prayers, Pſalmes, and Homilies, &c. in the olde Engliſh or Saxons tongue, in which the reall preſence, tranſubſtantiation, and other poinctes of Popiſh doctrine are plainly confuted. There may be ſhewed you alſo Bybles both the olde Teſtament and New in the Engliſh tongue of diuers tranſlations, in olde written hande. Alſo great bookes of Engliſh homilies inueighing directly againſt the Pope and all Popiſh doctrine in olde Engliſh written hande, with diuers other ſmall treatiſes and pamphlets of like matters, if theſe woulde do you any good, you might hauehave the ſight of them, when you pleaſe.
3 Or any Church or Congregation that euer had any Authenticall ſeruice but ours, and I recant.
THe Church of the Brytannes before Auguſtine came in, with Romiſh ſeruice, had they not trow you Authenticall ſeruice? which continued in the faith of Chriſt euen from the Apoſtles time. The Grecians alſo & Orientall churches, hauehave they not vntounto this day, their Authenticall ſeruice? which is not yours? If you can not deny this, you ſhould recant.
The 13. article hath 2. demaundes.
1 Furthermore I requier to know what ſhoulde be the cauſe that the Proteſtants themſelues, doe receiue all Byſhops, Prieſtes, Deacons, and other officers ſpirituall of all ſortes of our Catholike church, and doe admit them as men lawfully and ſufficiently ordered, both to preach, miniſter ſacraments, and to exerciſe ſpirituall iuriſdiction no leſſe, but rather more, than if they were of their owne ordering, where we of the Catholike church, doe not acknowledge any man of their calling to be any whit more fitte for any ſpirituall function than other lay men.
ALthough all godly men wiſhe more ſeueritie of diſcipline to be vſed, in receyuing them that come out of hereſies to ſerue in the Church, than is commonly practiſed in England: yet you are highlie deceyued, if you thinke we eſteeme your offices of Biſhops, prieſts, deacōs, any better than the ſtate of lay men, but farre worſe: for we iudge them to be nothing els but Antichriſtianitie, hereſie, and blaſphemie. And therefore we receiue none of them to miniſter in our church, except they forſweare your religion: And ſo their admiſſion is not an allowing of your ordering, but a new calling vntounto the miniſterie.
2 Therefore vponupon this preſumption that they doe not onelyonly admit our miniſtring of ſacraments, but alſo the lawfull ordering of the miniſters for the ſame, if they can ſhew me why our church hauing by their owne conſent and approuing lawfull prieſtes and biſhops ſhould not be the true church, I recant.
YOu preſume to much as I ſaide before to thinke that we receiue your orderinge to be lawfull or your miniſtring of ſacraments to be pure. And if you gather, that we admitte your miniſtration of ſacraments becauſe we doe not rebaptize them that were baptized by you, we maye likewiſe gather that you admit our miniſtration of ſacraments, becauſe you doe not rebaptize them that are baptized of vsus, nor marrie againe thoſe that are married in our Church: wheras you compt mariage to be a ſacrament, ſo that our accepting of your doings doth no more allow your church, than your accepting of our doinges, doth allow our Church. And as touching the ſacrament of Baptiſme, becauſe you reteyne the Inſtitution, in baptizing in the name of the Father, the Sonne, and the holy Ghoſt: and in aſmuch as the ſacraments take not their effect of the miniſter, but of God, we receiue it: as of other heretikes which likewiſe reteine the Inſtitution. Wherefore there is no cauſe why you ſhoulde thinke we allow yours to be the true Church thereby: So that there is good cauſe why you ſhoulde recant.