Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 9 · Section 5
Other Doctors about prayer for the dead.Bristowe.
I cited Purg. 382. Gelasius 24. 92. C. Legatur, That no man can be absolued of the Pope after his death: and Fulke.wherefore then serue the Popes Pardons? Bristowe answereth, that all their suffrages are only for them that die in their communion, and not for excommunicate persons. Verie well: yet are you not escaped. For where is the Popes commission for pardoning? Quodeunque, &c Whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vponupon earth, it shalbe loosed in heauen, &c. if this be your commission, as well for giuing pardōs, as for absoluing excommunicate persons, this commission cannot be exercised but vponupon the liuing. We read, saith Gel…sius, that Christe did raise the dead: we reade not that he did absolue them that died in errour. (If I had pleasure to enterlarde the Doctors sayinges as you hauehave, I should adde that we reade not that Christ gaue pardon to any in Purgatorie.) And because he alone had power onelyonly this to doe, he committed it to Peter the Apostle principally, Whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vponupon earth, it shabe loosed also in heauen, &c. He saith vponupon earth, for he neuer saide, that he was to be absolued which died in his binding. Likewise that this authoritie giuen by this texte, be it more or lesse, is to be exercised onelyonly vponupon men liuing on the earth: you may read, C. 24 q. 2. Quod autem. And that no man can be excommunicated or absolued after his death, it is shewed by the wordes of the Gospell, in which it is said: whatsoeuer you shal binde &c. he saith: vponupon the earth, not vnderunder the earth. Where I cited out of Cyprian Cont. Demetr. Pur. 140. when men are departed from hence, there is no place of repentance, no effect of satisfaction, Here life is either lost or saued, Here prouision is made for euerlasting life, by the worshipping of the fruite of faith: Bristowe chargeth me with clipping, because I left out the last periode, which is neither to nor fro my purpose. Likewise where I said, he exhorteth Demetrianus himselfe to repentance, which had bene a wicked man and a persecutor of Christians, he chargeth me with changing, for I should hauehave said, which presently was. I changed no worde of Cyprian, in saying, he had beene, and a reasonable man would hauehave vnderstoode me, that he presently was such a one, when I said Cyprian exhorteth him to repentance. But what is the answere? This which is expresly written of Infidells in hell, and of baptisme, I pretend to be written of the faithfull in Purgatory, and of penance after baptisme. I answere, Cyprian speaketh generally of all men, & not of Infidels only, & of al men in this world and not of Infidels in hell. Nec quisquam, &c. Neither let any man be staide: either by sinnes or by yeares that he should not come to obteine saluation. To him that remaineth still in this worlde, no repentance is to late. The way is open vntounto pardon: and to them that seeke and vnderstand the trueth, the accesse is easie.
Finally after he had saide, that passage is from death to life, the place by me cited, he addeth, Hanc graiiam, This grace Christ bestoweth, this gift of his merciemercy he giueth by subduing death with the trophee of his crosse, redeeming the beleeuer with the price of his bloud, reconciling man to God his father, quickening a mortall man by heauenly regeneration. Him, if it may be, let vsus all followe, let vsus be esteemed by his sacrament and signe, he openeth vntounto vsus the way of life, he restoreth vsus to Paradise, he bringeth vsus to the kingdome heauen: with him we shall alwayes liue, &c. These wordes declare that Cyprian acknowledgeth one meane of saluation, as well for the Gentile to be baptised, as for the penitent Christian by the onelyonly merciemercy of God in Christe obteined in this life, without any satisfaction of paine, for euer after this life: and therefore he saith moreouer, That beeing made the sonnes of God by Christ, restored by his bloud, we shall alwayes reioyce with him. We Christians shall be together with Christ glorious, blessed of God our father, reioycing of perpetuall pleasure, alwayes in the sight of God, and alwayes giuing thankes to God. For he can not be but alwayes ioyfull and glad, which when he was guilrie of death, is made sure of immortality. Thus doth Cyprian promise to Demetrianus, if he did repent, but euen immediately before his death, and were baptised, that he should enioye the same state of felicitie, with all faithfull Christians, in perpetuall ioy after death with Christ.
In like maner he exhorteth them that were fallen in persecution to repent in this worlde, while confession may be receiued, and satisfaction and remission made by the Priest is acceptable to God, which he speaketh generally, as if he had saide, no satisfaction or remission made by the Priest, auaileth to them that are departed.
To the place of Chrysostome whiche I cited against himselfe: Pur. 251. Bristowe after he hath remoued the question from the cause to the person, answereth that no friend, no iust man shall helpe him, that dieth in mortal sinne, either committing euil or doing no good. I say no more but as I saide before, Let it be compared with Chrysostomes other saying, the Homilie next before 41. in 1. Cor. and with Allens exhortation in the same Chapter. Pur. 242. If thou yet chance, &c. Out of Ambrose although allowing prayer for the dead, I cited in Psalm. 4. Bene, &c. The Prophet did well to adde on earth, for if he be not cleansed here, he can not be cleansed there. I should hauehave saide, cleane (saith Bristowe:) for though he be not cleane from veniall sinnes, he may be cleansed there, as also from the temporall debt of his remitted mortall sinnes. But he forgetteth the worde of the Psalme, out of which Ambrose maketh his note: Vt emundet cum in terra, that he may cleanse him on earth: why was it well added on earth, if he might be cleansed after this life? There is no cleansing but on earth.
Where Ambrose was alledged by Allen Pur. 104. to proue that euerie man immediately after his death, doth feele that he must looke for in the day of iudgement, I saide Purgatorie 105. I maruell wherefore it is brought in, if it bee not to ouerthrowe Purgatorie. For if it be true, no man feeleth paine after this life, but he that shall feele it eternally. This laste conclusion although Bristowe confesse, that Saint Ambrose him selfe sayeth it expressely in other places, yet he asketh howe I can inferre it of the wordes of Saint Ambrose In ep. ad Rom. Cap. 5. which I inferre not of his wordes, but of Allens wordes, citing the place of Ambrose, as though the wordes were these: And therefore Saint Ambrose saith: that without delay the good poore man was carryed to rest, and the wicked rich out of hand suffered torments. THAT EVERY MAN (saith he) MAIE FEELE BEFORE THE DAIE OF IVDGEMENT, WHAT HE MVST THEN LOOKE FOR. Bristowe leauing Allen, as he doth commonly, breechelesse, sheweth the wordes of Ambrose to be otherwise, as they are in deede. Which I will rehearse somewhat more at large then Bristowe hath done. Maxima pars mundi &c. The greatest part of the worlde did not knowe, that God should be their iudge: and very fewe there were, ouer whom death did not raigne. But they ouer whom it raigned, after this death, which is called the first, were receiued of the second deathe vntounto paine and destruction to come: but they ouer whome death raigned not, because they hauehave not sinned in the similitude of the transgression of Adam, were reserued vnderunder hope vntounto the comming of our Sauiour in a free place, as it is read of Abraham, that although he was in the lower partes, yet he was disseuered by a large distance, so that there was a greate goulphe betwene the iust and the sinners: how much more should there be to the godly and iust a c…olinge, to the sinners parching heate, to the vngodly burning heate, that it might not be hidden before the iudgement, what eueryevery one was worthy of. This that Ambrose speaketh of the difference of the paines of the damned, before Christ, Bristowe by his accustomed interlacing would hauehave it seeme, as though he spake of Purgatory: for to sinners he addeth Catholiques, to the impious or vngodly, beretikes. But he marketh not the conclusion, that such heate as they felte after their death, they should feele after the iudgement. Againe, Non latet he translateth might be partly knowne, as though that which is not hidde, is not manifestly and wholy knowne. That I cited out of Saint Ambrose De bono mortis: That death maketh no mans state worse, but such as it findeth in euerie one, such it reserueth to the iudgement to come: Bristowe saith, that Purgatorie altereth not the state of the euill to worse, nor promoteth the state of the good to better, but eueryevery mans state is according to the merites of his life, nor hee that is cleansed in Purgatory hath his merites multiplied or amplified, but veniall sinnes and temporall debts taken away. In deede if the state of a thing were nothing, but that you will allowe it to be, it were somewhat that you say: but who will say, that he which is in torments in Purgatory, is in as good state as he that is in pleasure or ease of this life? or that he which is discharged of such debts, as you say must be paide in Purgatory, is not in better state, then he that now dieth and must be cast into the scalding house, for such payment? But that you may vnderstand he speaketh not of the death of the wicked, which must abie for it, as Bristow saith: he addeth Ipsa quiete fouet, it cherisheth with rest: this cannot be of the wicked to whō there is no rest, but to the godly, which al immediatly after death enioye rest, notwithstanding they be not all alike good, for of two sortes only Ambrose speaketh, the wicked in torments after death, because of their wicked life, & the godly in rest. He speaketh therefore of the godly that death maketh not their state worse, as he saide immediatly before, Quia portus quidan… ect, because death is a certaine hauen of them which being tos…ed in the great Sea of this life, desire a harborow of faithfull rest.
To the counterfet auctority of Eusebius Emissenus, that hath serued for a patch to peece so many Homilies like the Cukcowes song, I will say no more then I said Pur. 143 The auctority of Bernard in this case I alwaies refused, as a late writer not sufficient to testify of the old faith or errors either.