Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 9 · Section 3 – Section 4
Of particular Doctours. Whether Saint Augustine doubted of Purgatorie.Bristowe.
That Saint Augustine allowed prayer for the dead, Bristowe citeth many places but without neede, seeing Fulke.I con…esse it: but that he neuer doubted of Purgatorie, that is not proued thereby. The Grecians at this day deny Purgatorie, yet do they allowpraier for the dead. Whereas I cited Saint Augustine Encher. Chapter. 69. It is not incredible, that such a thing is done, euen after this life, and whether it be so or no, it may be enquired. And either it may be found out or remaine hid, that some faithfull men by a certaine Purgatorie fire, by how much more or lesse they hauehave loued perishing goodes, to be saued sooner or later: yet not such of whō it is saide, that they shall not possesse the kingdome of GOD, except the same crimes be remitted to them conueniently repenting.
Bristowes answere is, that there are two Purgatorie fires, the one to punish soules for sinne, wherof S. Augustine is certaine: the other not to punish sinne, but onelyonly to weare out by little & little, such affections to worldely lawfull thinges, as to wiue, &c. that without griefe of minde, he cannot parte from them, so as the other which builded Golde, &c. whereof Augustine is vncertaine. Afterwarde he concludeth, they are two operations of one Purgatorie, the one to purge sinne with punishment, the other to purge worldly lawfull affections. If there be but one Purgatorie fire, Augustine doubteth not onelyonly of the punishment, but of the purging fire. But Augustine speaketh not of purging lawfull affections, for what purgation should there neede, where no vnlawful thing is to be purged? But of vnlawfull affections of worldly lawfull thinges, which are loued so farre aboue measure, that they cannot be lost for Christes sake, without greefe: these Cupiditates greedie desires, Augustine calleth the wood, Strawe, and stubble, which is builded vponupon the foundation Christ, vponupon whome it is sinne to builde any thing, but Golde, Siluer, or pearles, &c. 1. Cor. 3. so that it is sinne that Augustine speaketh of. Whereof he doubteth, whether it is purged by a Purgatorie fire after this life. Againe vtterly excluding impenitent sinners, from hope of this purging fire, it is manifest, that of penitent sinners he maketh this doubt, whether they may be saued by this Purgatory fire, after their death. Wherfore Bristows distinction is cleane contrary to Augustines meaning. Likewise wher he maketh a doubt whether such worldly lawful affections remain in the soules of the elect, departed, as louelove of wife &c. he shamefully slaundereth Saint Augustine, as though he helde any such opinion, when no such thing can be gathered out of his wordes falsifying to his purpose the Doctors wordes, which are Rerum secularium quamuis licitè concessarum tales cupiditates: Such greedy desires of worldly, although things lawfully graunted, to call them such worldly lawfull affections, whereas Augustine saith not, that such affections are lawfull, but that the worldly things are lawfull, on which such affection is sett. Likewise Ad Dulci. quaestion. prima. he bringeth for example, a certaine carnall affection towarde riches, a cogitation of those things which are of this worlde, how a man should please his wife &c to be this wood, haie, &c. and likewise doubtfully concludeth whether therefore in this life only, men suffer these things, or whether certaine such iudgments followe after this life &c. excluding againe murderers, fornicators, lyers periurers, &c. The like doubt he maketh De Ciuit. Dei Lib 21. Ca. 26. saying, that peraduenture it is true that this purging fier is in this lite onelyonly, peraduenture after this life onelyonly, or both in this life and after, but yet for all men to passe through, the perfect without sense, they that are entangled with these veniall sinnes, with sense of paine and losse &c.
But Augustine (saith Bristowe) sheweth himselfe certeine of purging paines De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. Cap. 24. saying it is certeine that such men are purged before Doomesday by temporall paines &c. As for this place, being not founde in many auncient written coppies as Viues sheweth, seemeth to be a corrupted place added by other, not written by Augustine. The like may be suspected of the place Cap. 13. of the same Booke, where he reporteth what he had said before of remitting sinnes in the worlde to come, which yet is not to be founde in that Booke, as for the places of Enchirid. Cap. 110. and Ad Dulc. …. 2. which he quoteth, hauehave nothing but of praiers for the dead. Wherfore Augustine although he allowed prayer for the dead, to auaile them remaining in secret receptacles, as he termeth them Enchirid. Cap. 109. yet he was not certeine of Purgatory. Touching inuocation of Saints (which I confessed Augustine to allowe according to the error of his time) and prayers to be profitable for the deade, I said Pur. 317. that Augustine is full of doubts and questions in the matter, and first whether the mothers supplication to the Martyr profited her sonne, Augustine said, that did profite him buried in the holy place, if any thing profited. Whereof I gathered, that he speake…h doubtfully. Bristow crieth out that I am past all shame: for Augustiue neuer doubted whether such supplication might profitte, but whether the mother had any such cogitation. I aunswere, he doubted at least, whether such kinde of supplication did profite or no: for the doubt of her cogitation was expressed before in an other condition, Si quidem credidit, if she beleeue, &c. But to refell my impudencie, as it should seeme, he hath heaped vp a sorte of places, to proue that Saint Augustine clearely affirmed supplication to Saints to profitte the deade: first, Non inaniter fiun…, they be not made in vaine. Cap. 1. But these wordes are not in that Chapiter. He saith there Ne que Ecclesia inaniter, Neither the Church nor the frendes care for the deade bestoweth in vain such deuotion as it can: where he speaketh of prayers for the deade, but not of supplication to the Martyrs. Secondly he citeth Prosunt quibusdam mortuis, they profitte one sort of the deade Cap. vlt. but neither are there such wordes, nor for such purpose. Thirdly, Non sunt praetermittende, they must not be omitted, C… 4. also, Fiunt recta fide, ac pietate, they be made with right faith, and pietie, Cap. 4. These wordes in deede are there, but of prayers for the deade generally, although there also in the same Chapiter to his purpose which he noteth not: last of all, Religiosus amicus, &c. they be necessary, the deuout frend must in no case omitte them Ca. 5. the necessarie supplications he speaketh of, are prayers generally, not that prayer to Saintes, are of him called necessarie supplications. But vntounto all the other doubtes, which I in the place aboue quoted, had noted out of that treatise of Augustine Bristowe speaketh not a worde.
Whether S. Augustine denied Purgatorie.Bristowe
Bristowe rehearseth my wordes (with such fidelitie Fulke.as is vsuall to Papistes) as though I had saide, that Saint Augustine denied Purgatorie by the name of Purgatorie, whereas my wordes are, that he seemeth to deme all other receptacles of the soules departed, beside heauen and hell. But of a third place (saith he,) we are altogether ignorant, neither do we finde it in the holie Scriptures. Hypog, Cont. Pel De Verb. Apost. Ser. 14. Bristowe sayeth, I answere it my selfe, in saying, he writeth against the Pelagians, that imagined a third place for the euerlasting rest of infantes that were not baptized. But what saith Bristowe to my reply? which is this, The same reason serueth as well against the Popish Purgatorie, because we finde it not in the holie Scriptures. Bristowe asketh whether Saint Augustine doth so reason against it? As though that were materiall, when the reason will binde one man as wel as another, and one matter as wel as another. As for his opinion of prayer for the dead, as I hauehave often saide, proueth not a thirde place: as for the two places De Ciu. Dei. lib. 21. cap. 13. & 24. the one manifestly corrupted, the other iustly suspected, I hauehave spoken to them both alreadie.