Answer to Thomas More, Part 5

Answer to Thomas More · Part 5

p. lxxxij¶ An answere vntounto Master Mores thirde boke₊ ☜

IN his third boke he procedith forth as before to proue that y^• opinions which y^• popish teach with out scripture are of equal auctorite with y^• scripture. He axeth what iff there had neuer Vvhat iff there had be no no scripture.bene scripture writtē? I answere / god careth for his electe and therfore hath prouided thē of scripture / to trie all thynges and to defende them from all false prophetes. And I saye morouer y^t if there had bene no scripture written / that god for his mercy and fatherly louelove and care toward his electe / must hauehave prouided / that there shulde neuer hauehave bene heresies or agenst all tymes when sectes shulde arise / hauehave stered vpp preachers to confunde the heresies with miracles. Take this ensample / the grekes hauehave the scripture and serue Grekesgod therin moch moare diligently then we. Now latt vsus geue that there were no scripture / but that we receaued all our faith by the auctory te of oure elders / and the grekes by the auctorite of their elders. Vvhen I shall dispute with a greke aboute the articles of y^• faith which my elders taught me and his elders denye / as eareconfession / the holy pardons of the pope and all his power that he hath aboue other bisshopes & many other thynges besyde the scripture which we hold for articles of oure faith and they denye. If there be no nother proffe of ether parte / then to saye / my elders which can not erre so affirme and that he shuld answere / his elders whych can not erre so denie / what reason is it / y^• I shuld leaue the auctorite of my elders ād goo and beleue his / or that he shuld leaue the auctorite of his elders and come and beleue myne? none p. lxxxiijat all verely. But the one partie must shew a miracle or else we must referre oure causes vntounto autenticke scripture receaued in olde tyme & confirmed with miracles and therwith trie the controuersie of our elders.

And when he axeth whether there were no true faith from Adam to Noe. I answere / that Noegod partely wrote their faith in their sacrifices / and partly the patriarkes were full of miracles as ye maye se in the Bible.

And when More / to vtter his darkenesse & blinde ignorauncie sayth / that they whych were ouer whelmed with Noyes floude / had a good faith / and bringeth for him Nicolaus de Lira. I answere / that Nicolaus de Lira delirat. For it Vvhat faith sauethis impossible to hauehave a faith to be saued by excepte a man consent vn to gods law with all his hert and all his soule / that it is right wysse / holy good and to be kepte of all men / and there vppō repent that he hath broken it / and sorow … ^t his flesh moueth vn to the contrary / and then come and beleue that god for his mercy wyll forgeue him all that he hath done agenst the lawe / and will helpe him to tame his flesh / and sofre his weakenesse in the meane season / till he be waxed strōger: which faith if they that perished in No yes floud had had / they coude not but hauehave mēded their liuinges and had not hardened their hertes thorow vnbeleffe and prouoked y^• wrath of god and waxed worse and worse an hundred and .xx. yeres which god gaue them to reyent / vn tyll god coude no lenger sofre them / but whashed their filthinesses awaye with the flode (as he doeth the popes same abhominacions with ☜like invndacions of water) and destroyed them vtterly₊

And when he axeth whether Abraham beleued no moare then is written of him. I axe him how he wyll proue that there was no writynge Abraham.in Abrahās tyme and that Abraham wrot not. And agayne / as for Abrahams person / he receaued his faith of god / whych to confirme vn to other / miracles were shewed dayly.

And when he fayneth forth / that they beleued the elders did erre.only because they knew their olders coude not erre. How coude they know that with out miracles or writynge confirmed with miracles / moare then the turcke knoweth that his elders so many hundred yeres in so greate a multitude can not erre and teach false doctrine to damne the beleuers. And the contrary doeth Master More se in all the byble / how aftir all was receaued in scripture confirmed with miracles and though miracles ceased not / but were shewed dayly / yet the elders erred and fell to Idolatrie an hundred for one that bode in the right waye and led the younger in to erroure with them so sore / that god to saue the yonger / was fame to destroye the elders and to begynne his testamēt afresh with the new generacion.

He seith also that the most part were al waye Idolaters for all the scripture and true myracles ther to / and beleued the false miracles of the deuel / because his doctrine was moare agreable vntounto their carnall vnderstondynge / then y^• doctrine of gods spirite / as if now goeth with the pope: did not the scribes / phareses / and prestes whych were the elders erre?

And when he axeth who taught the church to know the true scripture from false bokes. I p. lxxxiiijanswere / true miracles that confunded the false / gaue auctorite vn to the true scripture. And therby hauehave we euer sens iudged al other bokes and doctrine.

And by that we know that youre legendes be corrupte with lyes. As Erasmus hath improued many false bokes whych ye hauehave fayned & put forth in the name of. S. Hierom / Augustine Ciprian / Deonise and of other / partly with auctentick Grasmusstories and partely by the stile and latine and like euident tokens₊

And when Master More sayth vn to thē that beleue nought but the scripture / he wyll proue with y^• scripture / that we be bound to beleue the church in thynges where fore they hauehave no scripture. Because god hath promised in the scripture / that the holy gost shall teach his church all trouth. Naye / that texte will not proue it. For the first church taught nought but they cōfirmed it with miracles which coude not be done but of god / tyll the scripture was autētickly receaued. And the church folowynge teacheth nought that they will hauehave beleued as an article of the faith / but that whych the scripture proueth and maynteneth. As. S. Augustine protesteth of his workes that men shuld compare them vn to y^• scripture and therby iudge thē and cast awaye whatsoeuer the scripture dyd not alowe. And therfore they that wilbe beleued with out scripture are false ypocrites and not Christes church. For though I know that that mesinger whych Christe sendeth / can not lye / yet in a companye where many lyars be / I can not know whych is he / with out a token of scripture or of miracle.

And when he saith / the scripture selfe maketh vsus not to beleue y^e scripture but y^e church teacheth vsus to know the scripture: for a man might reade it and not beleue it. And so I saye / The pope hideth the scripture.that a man might heare you preach and yet beleue you not also. And I saye therto / that youre church teacheth not to know the scripture: but hideth it in the latine from the comen people. And from them that vnderstond latine they hide the true sence with a thousand false gloses.

And I saye morouer that the scripture is the cause why men beleue the scripture / as well as a preacher is the cause why men beleue his preachinge. For as he that first told in Englonde that the Rodes was taken / was the cause whi some beleued it / euen so might writynge sent from those parties be the cause that some me which red it beleued it. Master More wyll saye / that letter had his auctorite of the man y^t sent it / and so hath the scripture his auctorite of the church. Naye / the scripture hath hir auctorite of him that sent it / that is to wete of god / which thynge the miracles did testifie / and not of the man that brought it. He wyll saye / thou knowest the scripture by their shewenge. I graunt at the begynnynge I doo.

Then wyll he saye / why shuld ye not beleue them / in all their other doctrine besydes the scripture and in all their exposicions of the scripture / as well as ye beleue them / when they tell you that soch and soch bokes ar the scripture. May they not shew you a false boke? yes / and therfore at the begynnynge I beleue all a like. EueryEvery lye that they tell out of their awne braynes we p. lxxxvbeleue to be scripture / and so shuld I beleue thē if they shewed me a false boke but when I hauehave red the scripture and find not their doctrine there ner depende therof / I doo not geue so greate credence vn to their other doctrine as vn to Vvhy the pope is not to be beleued wythout scripture & whi he is not the true churchthe scripture. why? For I finde moo witteneses vn to the scripture then vn to their other doctrine. I finde hole nacions and contres that receaue the scripture and refuse their other doctrine ād their exposicions in many places. And I finde the scripture other wyse expounded of them of old tyme then they which now wilbe y^• church / expounde it. Vvherby their doctrine is the moare susspecte. I finde mencion made of the scripture in stories / that it was / when I can finde no mencion or likelyhode that their doctrine was. I finde in all ages that men hauehave resisted their doctrine with the scripture ād hauehave sofred deeth by the hundred thousandes in resistynge their doctrīe. I se their doctrine brought in and maynetened by a contrary waye to that by whych the scripture was brought in. I finde by the selfe same scripture / when I loke diligētly theron / that their other doctrine can not stonde therwith.

I finde in the scripture that they which hauehave not Christes spirite to folow the steppes of his liuinge perteyne not vn to Christ Romano. Roma. 8viij. I find in y^e scripture / that they whych walke in their carnall birth aftir the maner of the childern of Adam can not vnderstonde the thinges of the spirite of god. 1. Cor. ij. I finde in the scripture that they whych seke glorie can not beleue 1. Cor. 2.1 Cor 2christ Ihon. v. I finde in the scripture that they which submitte not them selues to doo y^e Ioan. 5.John 5will of god / can not know what doctrine is of Ihon. 7god and what not Ihon. vii. I fynde in the scripture Hieremie. xxxi. and hebre. viii. that all the childern of god / which only are the true members of his church hauehave eueryevery one of them the lawe of god written in their hertes: so that if theyr Hebre. 8.were no law to compell / they wolde yet naturally out of their awne hertes kepe the lawe of god: ye and agenst uiolence compellynge to y^• contrary. And I se that they whych wilbe the church (and to proue it hauehave not so great trust in the scripture as in their sophistrie and in the sword which they hauehave sett vpp in all landes to kepe them with violence in the rowme) are so ferre off from hauinge the lawes of god writtē in their hertes / that they nether by gods lawe ner mans refrayne from their open outwarde weked lyuinge. Loke in the chronicles what bloud yt hath cost englond to attempte to brynge them vnderunder the law. ye and se what busynes y^• realme hath had / to kepe the prelates wythyn the realme from takinge the benefyces with thē and lyenge at Rome / and yet scacely brought yt to passe / for all that the pope hath the stiute of eueryevery bysshoperyke and of eueryevery greate abbey therto as offt as any is voyde / yer a newe be admitted to the rowme. And I se them bonde vn to their awne wyll and both to doo and too consent vn to other to doo all y^• God hath forboden. I se them of all people moost uaynegloryous. I se them walk: after their fleshy birth. I se thē so ferre off from the image of chryste / Ioan. 10John 10that not only they wyll not dye for their flocke after hys ensample / but also / yer they wold lose one towne / or vylage / any pollynge or pryuilege whych they hauehave falsly gotten / bryngynge p. lxxxvithem selues in to good pastures wyth wyles and shuttynge their flocke without / they wold cast awaye an hundred thousande off them in one daye and begger theyr realmes / ye and interdyte them and brynge in straunge nacyons / though yt were the turke / to conquere them and sle them vppe / so moch as the innocent in y^• cradell. And I se that there other doctrine is for their wauntage only ād that therwyth they hauehave gotten all that they hauehave₊

And I fynde in the scripture that the Iewes before the cominge of christe knew y^t those bokes were the scripture by the scribes and the phareses. And yet as many as beleued their other doctrine ād many exposicions of the scipture were dysceaued / as ye se / and how chryst delyuered them out of erroure. And I se agayne (whych ys no small myracle) that the mercyfull care of god to kepe the scripture to be a testimonye ☜vntounto hys electe / ys so greate / that no men be moare gelous ouer the bokes / to kepe them and shew them / and to allege / that they be the scripture of god and true / then they which when yt is reed in their eares hauehave no power to beleue yt / as the Iewes and the popishe. And therfore because they nether can beleue yt false / nether consent that yt ys true as yt soundeth playnly in theyr eares in that yt ys so contrary vntounto their fleshly wysdome / from whych they can not departe / they seke a thousand gloses to turne yt in to a nother sens / to make it agre vn to theyr beestlynesse / and where yt wyll receaue no soch gloses / theyr they thynke that no man vnderstondeth yt

Then in the end of the chapter master Mace predestinacioncometh vn to his wise conclusion and prouith nothinge saue sheweth his ignoraunce / as in all thynge. He saith we beleue the doctrine of the scripture without scripture / as for an ensāple / the popis pardons / because only that the church so teacheth / though no scripture cōfermeth it. whi so? because saith he the holy gost by inspiracion / if I doo my deuoure and captiuat myne vnderstondynge / teacheth me to beleue the church concerninge Gods word taught by the church and grauen in mens hertes with out scripture / as wel as he teacheth vsus to beleue wordes written in the scripture. Marke where he is now. Afore he saith / the scripture causeth vsus not to beleue the scripture / for a man maye read it and beleue it not. And moch more the precher maketh vsus not to beleue the preacher / for a mā maye heare him and beleue him not also. As we se the appostles covde not cause all men to beleue them. For though y^e scripture be an outward instrument and the preacher also to moue men to beleue / yet the chefe and principall cause why a man beleueth or beleueth not is with in. That is / the spirite of god teacheth hir chyldern to beleue ☞and the deuell blyndeth his childern and kepeth them in vnbeleue and maketh them to consent vn to lies and thynke good euell and euell good. As the actes of the appostles saye in many places there beleued as many as were ordeyned vn to euerlastynge life. And christ saith Ihō Actes. 13.Acts 13viij. they that be of god heare gods worde. And vn to the weked Iewes he saith ye can not beleue because ye be not of god. And in the same place Ioan. 8.John 8saith he / ye be of youre father the deuell and his will ye will doo / & he bode not in the trouth / p. lxxxviiand therfore will not soffre his childern to consent to the trueth. And Ihon in the tenth saith christ / al that came before me / be theves ād murtherars / but my shepe hearde not their voyces. That is / all that preach any saluacion saue in christ murther the soules. How be it christes shepe coude not consent to their lies / as the rest cānot but beleue lies / so that there is euer a remanaunt kepte by grace. And of this I hauehave sene diuers ensamples. I hauehave knowen as holy men as might be / as the world counteth holinesse / which at the houre of deeth had no trust in god at all / but cryed cast holiwater / light the holy cādell / ād so forth / sore lamentynge that they must dye. And I hauehave knowen other which were dispiced / as men that cared not for their diuine seruice / which at deeth hauehave fallen so flatt vppon the bloude of christ as is possible and hauehave preached vn to other mightyly as it had bene an appostle of our sauioure and conforted them with comforte of the life to come and hauehave died so gladly / that they wold hauehave receaued no worldes good / to byde still in the flesh. And thus is M. More faulen vppon predestinacion and is compelled with violence of scripture to confesse that which he hateth and studieth to make appere false / to stablish frewill with all not so moch of ignoraūce I feare as for lucres sake and to gett honoure / promocion / dignite and money by hepe of our mitred monsters. Take ensample of Balambalam the false prophete which gaue councel ād sought meanes / thorow like blind couetousnesse / to make the trueth and prophisie which God had shewed him / false. He had the knowlege of the trouth but with out louelove therto and therfore for vauntage became enimie vn to y^• trouth / but what came of hym?

But M. More peperith his conclusion lest men shuld fele y^t taste sayenge if we endeuoure our selues & captiue oure vnderstondinge to beleue. O how betleblinde is fleshlye reason? the wil hath none operaciō at all in the workynge of faith in my soule / no more then y^• child hath in the begetinge of his father. For saith paule it is y^• gift of god ād not of vsus. My witte must cōclude good or bad yer my will can louelove or hate. My witt must shew me a true cause or an apparent cause whi / yer my will hauehave any workinge at all. And of that peperinge it well appereth what the popis fayth ys: euen a b…no imaginaciō of theyr natural witte / wrought with out y^• light of y^• spirite of god / agreinge vntounto their volupuous lustes in which their bestly wil …o deliteth that he wyll not lett there wittes attende vntounto any other lernynge for vnquiettynge hym selfe and sterynge from his pleasure and delectaciō₊

And thus we be as ferre a sunder as euer we were and his mightie argumētes proue not the value of a podynge pricke. M. More feleth More felethin his hert by in spiracion and with his endeuerynge him selfe and captiuatynge hys vnderstōdynge to beleue it / that there is a purgatory as whot as hell. where in if a sily soule were appoynted purgatoryeby god / to lye a thousand yeres / to purge him wyth all / the pope for the value of a grote shall commaunde him thence full purged in the twinkelinge of an eye / and by as good reason if he were goyng thēce / kepe him there still. He felith by inspiraciō ād in captiuatinge his wittes that the pope can worke wonders with a calfes skyn / that he can commaunde one to eate fleshe though he be neuer so lustie / and that a nother p. lxxxviiieate none in payne of damnacion / though he shulde die for lacke of it: and that he can forgeue synne and not the payne / and as moch and as litle of the payne or all yf he luste / and yet can nether helpe hym to louelove the law or to beleue or to hate the flesh / seinge he preacheth not. And soch thynges innumerable. M. More feleth true / and therfore beleueth that the pope ys the true church₊

And I cleane contrary fele that there ys Tyndale feleth Purgatorye Ihon. 15.no soch worldely and fleshely imagined purgatory. For I fele that the soules be purged only by the worde of god ād doctrine of christe / as it is writtē Ihon. xv. ye be cleane thorow the worde / saith christ to his appostles. And I fele agayne that he which is cleane thorow the doctryne / nedeth not but to washe his fete only / for hys heed ād handes ar cleane al redye Ihon. xiii. y^• Ihon. 13.is / he must tame his flesh and kepe it vnderunder for his soule is cleane all redy thorow the doctrine. I fele also that bodyly payne doeth but purge the body only: in so moch that the payne not only purgeth not the soule / but maketh yt moare foule / excepte that there be kinde lerninge by / to purge the soule: so that the moare a man beteth his sonne / the worse he is / excepte he teach hym louingly and shew hym kindnesse besydes / partely to kepe hym from desperation and partely y^t he fall not in to hate of his father and of hys commaundement therto / and thynke that hys father is a tirant and his law but tyranny₊

Master More feleth with his good ēdenoure ād inspiracion to gether / y^t a man may hauehave the best faith coupled with the worst life and wyth cōsentinge to sinne. And I fele y^• it is impossible to beleue truly excepte a man repēt / ād y^• yt ys impossible to trust in the mercy that is in christ or to fele it but that a man must immediatly louelove god and his commaundementes / and therfore disagre and disconsent vntounto the flesh and be at bate therwith and fight agenst it. And I fele that eueryevery soule that loueth the law and hateth his flesh and beleueth in christes bloude / hath hys synnes which he committed and payne whych he desarued in hatynge the law and consentynge vntounto hys flesh / forgeuen hym / by that faith. And I fele that the frailtie of the flesh agenst which a beleuinge soule fighteth to subdue yt / ys also forgeuen and not rekened or imputed for sinne all the tyme of our curynge: as a kind father and mother rekene not or impute the impossibite of their younge childern to consent vntounto their law / and as when the childern be off age and consent / then they reken not ner impute the impossibilite of y^• flesh to folowe it immediatly / but take al a worth and louelove them no lesse / but rather mdare tenderly then their old and perfecte childern that doo their commaundemētes / so longe as they goo to scole and lerne soch thynges as their fathers & mothers set thē to₊

And I beleue that eueryevery soule that repenteth / beleueth ād loueth the law / is thorow that fayth a mēbre of christes church and pure without spott or wrincle / as paul affirmeth. Eph. v And yt ys an artycle of my beleffe that chrystes Ephe. 5.Eph 5electe church ys holy and pure with out synne and eueryevery membir of the same / thorow faith in christe. and that they be in y^e full fauoure of god And I fele that the vnclennesse off the soule ys but the consent vntounto sinne and vntounto the flesh. And therfore I fele that eueryevery soule that beleueth and consenteth vntounto the lawe and here in p. lxxxixthis life hateth his flesh ād the lustes therof ād doeth his best to driue sinne out of his flesh and for hate of the sinne gladly departeth from hys flesh / whē he is deed (and the lustes of the flesh slayne with deeth) nedeth not as it were bodyly tormentynge to be purged of that wherof he is quite all redy. And therfore if ought remayne / it is but to be taught and not to be beten. And I fele that eueri soule th… bereth frute in christ Ioan. 15John 15shalbe purged of the father to bere moare frute daye by daye / as it is written Ihon. xv. not in y^• popis purgatory where no mā telith it / but here in this life soch frute as is vn to his neyboures profitt / so that he which hath his hope in christ purgeth him selfe here / as Christ is pure. 1. Ihō iij. and that euer yet the bloud of Ihesus only 1. Ioan. 3.1 John 3doeth purge vsus of all youre synnes for the imparfectenesse of oure workes. And I fele that the forgeuenesse of synnes is to remitte mercyfully the payne that I hauehave deserued. And I do beleue that the payne that I here sofre in my Payne of synneflesh / is to kepe the body vnderunder and to serue my neyboure and not to make satisfaccion vn to god for the fore synnes₊

And therfore when the pope describeth god aftir his couetous complexion / and when Master The popes levenMore felith by inspiracion and captiuattinge his wittes vn to the pope / y^t god forgeueth y^• euerlastynge payne and wyll yet punish me a purgatorythousand yeres in the popis purgatory / y^• leuē sauereth nor in my mouth. I vnderstond my fathers wordes as they sounde and aftir the most mercifull maner and not aftir the popes leuen & M. Mores captiuinge his wittes / to beleue y^• eueryevery poetes fabell is a true story. There is no father here that punisheth his sonne to purge him / when he is purged all redy and hath vtterly forsaken synne and euell and hath submitted him selfe vn to his fathers doctrine. For to punish a man that hath forsaken synne of his awne accorde / is not to purge him / but to satisfie y^• lust of a tirant. Nether ought it to be called purgatory / but a Iayle of tormentynge and a satisfactory. And when the pope saith it is done to satisfye y^• rightewesnesse is a iudge. I saye we that beleue hauehave no iudge of him / but a father / nether shall we come in to iudgement as Christ hath promised vsus / but are receaued vnderunder grace mercy and forgeuenesse. Shew the pope a litle money and god is so mercyfull that there is no ☞purgatory. And why is not the fire out as well / if I offer for me y^• bloud of Christe? If Christ hath deserued al for me / who gaue the pope might to kepe parte of his deseruynges from me & to by and sell Christes merites ād to make marchaundice ouer vsus with fayned wordes. And thus as. M. More feleth that the pope is holy church / I fele that he is antichriste. And as my felynge can be no proffe to him / no moare can his with all his captiuatinge his wittes to beleue phantasyes be vn to me. wherfore if he hauehave no nother probacion to proue that the pope is holy church / then that his hert so agreeth vntounto his lernynge / he ought of no right to compel with swerde vn to his secte. How be it there are ever .ij. maner people y^t wil cleaue vntounto god a fleshli / & a spiritual. The spiritual which be of god shal heare gods worde & the childern of y^• trueth shall consent vn to the trueth. And contrary / y^• fleshlye and childern of falshed and of the deuel whose hertes be full of lyes / shall naturally consent vn to lies (as younge childern though they p. xchauehave eate them selfes as good as deed with fri… te / yet wyll not ner can beleue him that telleth them that soch frute is nought: but him y^• prayseth them wyll they heare and eate them selues starke deed / because their hertes befull of lyes & they iudge all thynges as they appere vn to y^• eyes) And the fleshly minded / assone as he beleueth of god as moch as the deuel doeth / he hath ynough / and goeth to & serueth god with bodily seruice as he before serued his Idoles / and aftir his awne imaginacion & not in the sprite / in louinge his lawes & beleuinge his promises or longynge for thē: no if he might euer liue in y^• flesh he wolde neuer desyre them. And god must doo for him agayne / not what god hath promised / but what he lusteth. And his brother y^t serueth god in the spirite acordynge to gods word / him wyll the carnall beest persecute. So that he whych wyll godly liue must sofre persecucion vntounto the worldes ende / acordynge vn to the doctrine of christe & of his apostles & acordyng vn to y^• ensamples that are gonne before.

And finally I hauehave better reasons for my felynge that y^• pope is antichrist thē M. More hath for his endeuorynge him selfe & captiuinge his wittes y^• he is y^• true church. For y^• church y^• was the true mesinger of god / hath euer shewed a signe & a bage therof / ether a present miracle or autenticke scripture / in so moch y^t Moses whē he was sent / axed how shall they beleue me and god gaue him a signe / as euer before & sens. Nether was there any other cause of the writynge of the new and last and euerlastinge testament / thē that when miracles ceased / we might hauehave wherewith to defende oure selues agenst false doctrine and heresies. Vvhych we coude not doo / if we were bounde to beleue that were no where written. And agayne / if the pope coude not erre in his doctrine / he coude not synne of purpose and profession / abhominably and openly aboue the turkes and all the hethen that euer were / and defende it so malyciouslye as he hath .viij. hundred yeres longe and wyll not be reformed / and maketh them his saintes & his defenders that synne as he doeth. He persecuteth as the carnall church euer did. when the scripture is awaye / he proueth his doctrine with y^• scripture and assone as y^• scripture cometh to light he runneth awaye vntounto his sophistrie and vntounto his swerde. we se also by stories how youre confession / penaunce and pardons ar vpp come ād whence youre purgatory is spronge. And youre falshed in the sacramentes we se by open scripture. And all youre workes we rebuke with the scripture and therewith proue that the false beleffe that ye couple to them / maye not stonde with the true fayth that is in oure sauioure Iesus.

ij.

IN the ende of the seconde chapter he bringeth in Euticus that fell out at a window Actes. xx. whō saith he. s. Paulis merites did recouer. EuticusVerely Paule durst not so saye / but that Christes merites did it. Peter sayth Actes. iij. ye men of Israel why gase ye and stare vppon Actes. 3Acts 3vsus / as though we by our power and godlynesse had made this man goo. Naye / the name of Iesus and fayth that is in him / hath geuen him strength and made him sounde: And euen here / it was the name of Iesus thorow paules faith that did that miracle and not Paules merites / though he were neuer so holy.

p. xcjiij.

IN the .iij. chapter he sayth that bilneyes iudges which he yet nameth not for feare of sclaunderynge them / were indifferent. Naye / they that take rewardes be not indifferent. For Iudg…rewardes and giftes blynde the eyes of the seinge and peruerte the wordes of the righteous Deute. xvij. Now all that be shoren take greate Deu. 17.Deut 17rewardes to defende pilgremages / purgatory and prayenge vn to sayntes: even the third parte I trow of all christendome. For all they hauehave they hauehave receaued in the name of purgatory & of saintes / and on that fundacion be all their bisshoprikes / albeyes / coleges & cathedral churches bylte. If they shalbe indifferēt iudges / they must be made seruauntes and doo saruice as their dutie is. And when they hauehave done a quarters saruice ▪ thē geue them wages as right is / vntounto every man that laboureth in christes heruest a sufficient liuynge and no moare / and that in y^• name of his laboure and not of sayntes and so forth. And then they shalbe moare indifferent iudges / when there cometh no vauntage to iudge moare on one syde then a nother.

iiij.

IN the ende of … fourth he sayth the man toke an oth secretly ād was dismissed with secret penaunce. O ypocrites / why dare ye not doo it openly?

v.

IN the .v. the mesinger axeth him whether he were present. And he denyeth and sayth euer he hearde saye. Alas sir whi take you brybes to defende that you knowe not / why suffre you not them that were present and to whom the mater perteyneth / to lye for them selues?

Then he iesteth out the mater with wilken and simken / as he doeth Hunne and eueryevery thinge / because men shuld not consydre their falshed ernestly. Vvherin be hold his sotle conveyaunce. He axeth what if simkē wold hauehave sworne that he saw men make those printes. Vvhere vntounto Master More answereth vnderunder the name of / quod he / that he wold swere / that besydes the losse of the wager / he had lost his honestye & his soule therto. Beholde this mannes gravite / how coude you that doo when the case is possible. you shulde hauehave put him to his proues and bydde him brynge recorde.

Then saith he the church receaueth no man conuicte of heresie vn to mercy / but of mercy receaueth ☞him to opē shame. Of soch mercy / god geue them plentye that are so mercyfull.

Then he sheweth how mercyfull they were to receaue the man to penaunce that abode styll in periury and deedly synne. O shamelesse ypocrites how can ye receaue in to the congregaciō of christe an open obstinat synner that repēteth not / whē ye are commaunded of christ to cast all soch out? And agayne of scribes and phareses / by what ensample of christe and of his doctrine can ye put a man that repenteth vn to open shame and to that thinge where by euer aftir he is had in derision amonge his brethern of whom he ought to be loued and not mocked. ye might enioyne honest thinges / to tame his flesh / as prayer and fastynge and not that whych shuld be to him shame euer aftir and soch as ye youre selues wold not doo₊ ☜

vij.

p. xcijIN the .vij. chapter he maketh moch to doo swerynge.aboute sweringe and that for a sotle purpose. Notwithstondinge / the trueth is / that no iudge ought to make a man swere agenst his wyll for many inconuenientes. If a man receaue an office he that putteth him in the rowme ought to charge him to doo it truly and maye & happly ought to take an othe of him. If a man offer him selfe to beare wittenesse / the iudge maye and of some haply ought to take an oth of them: but to compell a man to beare wittenesse ought he not. And Morouer if a iudge put a mā to an othe that he shall answere vn to all that he shalbe demaunded off / he ought to refuse. How be it if he hauehave sworn / and thē the weked iudge axe him of thynges hurtefull vn to his neyboure and agenst the louelove that is in Christe / then he must repent that he hath sworn / but not synne agayne and to fulfyll his othe. For it is agēst gods commaundement / that a man shuld hurte his neyboure that hath not deserued it₊

viij.

VN to church / prest / charite / grace / confessiō and penaunce is answered him in the begynnynge of the boke. And when he sayth Tindale was confederatt with Luther that is not trueth₊

ix.

THen his .ix. chapter is there nothynge moare folishe. For if he wold hauehave any wyse man to beleue that my translacion wold destroye the masse any other wyse then the latine or greke texte / he shuld hauehave alleged the place and howe₊

xj.

IN the .xj. chapter Master More will not defende the liuinge of our spiritualtie / because it is so open that he can not. And as litle shuld he be able to defende their lies / iff y^• light were abrode that men might se. And as he cannot deny them abhominable / so can he not deny them obstinat and indurat therin / for they hauehave bene oft rekuked with gods worde / but in vayne. And of soch the texte is playne that they can not vnderstonde the scripture. And yet M. More wyll receaue rewardes to dispute agenst the heresies of some soch as be cast out of Christes church by soch holy patriarkes / whose liuēges he him silfe can not prayse. As holy Iudas / though the prelates of his church that is y^• pharises Iudas.were neuer so abhominable / yet because. Christes doctrine was condemned of them as of gods church that coude not erre / and all that beleued on him excomunicat / he was bold to saye. Quid vultis mihi dare et ego tradam eum vobis? That is / what will you geue me and I will deliuer him vn to you?

xij.

IN the .xij. he hath one conclusion / that the Prayars of an evell preest profite not.prayars of an evel preest profite not. which though be true / yet the contrary is beleued amōge a greate mayny / in all quarters of englonde / so blynd be the people and wotte not what prayar meaneth. I hauehave hearde men of no small reputacion saye yer this in greate audience / that it maketh no mater whether y^• prest were good or bad so he toke money to praye as they scaldē praye with out / for he coude not hurte y^• prayer were he neuer so noughty.

And when he saith that the euell preest hurteth vsus not so moch with his lyuynge / as he profiteth p. xciijvsus with ministrynge the sacramentes. O worldlye wisdome / if a man lead me thorow a ieoperdous place by daye / he can not hurte me so greatly as by night. The turke seith y^t murther / thefte / extorcion / oppression / and adultery be synne. But when he leadith me by the darkenesse of sacramentes with out significacion / I can not but ketch harme and put mi trust ād confidence in that which is nether god ner his worde. As for an ensample / what trust put the people in anoylynge & how crie they for it / with no nother knowlege then that the oyle saueth them / vn to their damnacion and denyenge of Christes bloude?

And when he saith the preest offereth or sacrificeth Christes body. I answere / Christ was Sacrificeoffered once for all as it is to se in the epistle to the Hebrues. As the prest sleeth Christ / breaketh Hebr. 10.Heb 10his body and shedith his bloude / so he sacrificeth him and offereth him. Now y^• preest sleeth him not actually ner breaketh his body actualy ner shedith his bloude actually nether scorgeth him and so forth / thorow out al his passion: but representeth his sleinge / his body breakynge ād bloudshedynge for my synnes and all the rest of his passion and playeth it before myne eyes only. VvhichWhich significacion of the masse / because the people vnderstonde not / therfore they receaue no forgeuenesse of their synnes therby / and therto can not but ketch hurte in their soules / thorow a false faith as it well appeareth / how eueryevery man cometh therto for a sundrye imaginacion / all ignoraunt of the true waye.

Let no man begyle you with his iuglynge sophistrie. Oure offeringe of Christ is to beleue in him / and to come with a repentinge herte vn to y^• remēbraunce of his passion and to desyre god the father for the breakynge of Christes body on the crosse and shedynge of his bloude and for his deeth and all his passions / to be mercyfull vn to vsus and to forgeue vsus acordynge vntounto his testament and promise. And sowe receaue forgeuenesse of oure synnes. And other offerynge or sacrifisinge of Christ is there now none. Vvalke in the open light and felynge & lett not youre selues be led with iuglynge wordes as mules and asses in whych there is none vnderstondinge₊

M. Deacons were had in price in the olde More Deacons. Tindaletyme T. For the deacons then toke the care of all the pore and sofered none to goo a beggynge / but prouided a lyuynge for eueryevery one of them. Vvhere now they that shulde be deacons make them selues prestes and robbe the pore of landes / rentes / offerynges and all that was geuen them / deuourynge all them selues and the pore dienge for hongre.

M. prestes be dispised because of the multitude. T. if there were but one in the worlde as mē More. Hreestes. Tindale More. Tindalesaye of the fenix / yet if he lyued abhominably / he coude not but be dispised₊

M. a man maye hauehave a good faith coupled with all maner synne. T. a good faith puteth awaye al synne / how then can alwaye synne dwell with a good faith? I dare saye / that Master 1. Ioau. 4.More durst affirme / that a man might louelove god and hate his neyboure both at tonce / and yet S. Ihon in his epistle wyll saye that he sayeth vntrulye. But Master More meaneth of the best fayth that euer he felte. By all lyklyhod he knoweth of no nother but soch as maye stonde with all wekednesse / nother in him selfe ner in p. xciiijhis prelates. wherfore in as moch as their faith maye stond with all that Christ hateth / I am sure he loketh but for small thanges of god for his defēdynge of them. And therfore he playeth suerly to take his rewarde here of oure holy patriarkes.

M. few durst be prestes in the old tyme. T. More. Tindalethen they knew the charge and fered god. But now they know the vauntage & dread him not.

M. if the lawes of the church were executed which tyndale and Luther wold hauehave burnt / it More Tindalewolde be better. T. iff the testament of oure sauioure might be knowen for blinde wretches & couetous tirantes / it wold write the law of god in all mens hertes that beleued it / and thē shuld men naturally and with out compulsion kepe all honestie. And agayne / though the popis law coude helpe / is not yet no law as good as a lawe vnexcuted?

xiij.

IN the .xiij. he rageth and fareth exceadynge Prestes maye hauehave wives.foule with him selfe. There he biteth / sucketh / gnaweth / towseth / and mowseth tindale. There he weneth that he hath wonne his spores ād y^t it is not possible to answere him. And yet there / because he there most stondeth in his awne conseyte / I doute not vn to them that be lerned in Christe to proue him moste ignoraunt of all and cleane wyth out vnderstondynge of godly thynges. And I saye yet / that as no woman ought to rule a mans office / where a man is present / by y^• ordir of nature / & as a younge mā ought not to be chosen / to ministre in y^• church / where an olde mete for the rowme maye be had / by y^• ordir of nature / euen so it was Pauls meaninge / to preferre y^• maried before y^• vn maried / for the inconuenientes that might chaunce by the reason of vnchastite / which inconuenientes Mastre More mighte se with sorow of herte (it he had as greate louelove to Christ as to other thinges) to happen dayly vn to the shame of Christes doctrine / amonge prestes / freres and monkes / partly with open whores / partly with their so domitrie wherof they cast ech other in y^• teeth dayly in eueryevery abbey / for y^• least displeasure / y^• one doeth to a nother. M. More might se what occasions of vnchastite begeuen vn to y^• curates eueryevery where by the reason of their office and dayly conuersacion with the maried.

And when he sayth neuer man coude finde that exposicion tyll now / there he sayth vntrue. For. S. Hierom him silfe saith y^• he knew them that so expounded the texte / and rebuked s. hierome.them of Rome because they wold not admitte in to the clargye them that had had two wyues / the one before baptim and the other aftir sayenge: if a man had kylled .xx. men before his baptym / they wold not hauehave forboden him / and why then shuld that which is no synne at all be a lett vn to him. But y^• god of Rome wold not heare him. For sathan began then to worke his misteries of wekednesse.

And when he sayth / he that hath .x. wiues hath one wife. I saye that one is taken by the vse of speakynge for one only. As when I saye / I am content to geue the one / meanynge one only. And vntounto him that hath no helpe / is there one helpe / to loke for no helpe / where one helpe is taken for one only / and many places else.

And when master More saith / he that hath had .ij. wiues one after a nother maye not be preest / and that if a prestes wife dye he maye not p. xcvhauehave a nother if nede be / or that if he were made preest hauynge no wife / he might not aftir marie iff he burnt / I desyre a reason of him. yf he saye / it hath bene so the vse: then saye I an hore is better then a wife / for that hath bene the vse of oure holy father many hundred yeres. But I affirme vn to Master More y^• contrary. And I saye first with Paule / that the kyngdome of god is not meate and drynke / and by the same Rom. 14.Rom 14reason nether husbonde or wife / but the kepinge of the commaundementes and to louelove eueryevery man his neyboure as him selfe. And therfore as meate and drynke ware ordeyned for mans necessite / and as a man maye eate & drynke at all nedes in all degrees / so ferre as it letteth him not to kepe the commaundementes and to louelove his neyboure as him selfe: even so was the wife created for the mans necessite / and therfore maye a mā vse hir at all his nede in all degrees / as ferre as she letteth him not to kepe gods law which is no thinge else by Paules lernynge / then that a man louelove his neyboure as him selfe. Now I desyre a reason of master Mores doctrine / what doeth my seconde wife or my third hinder me to louelove my neyboure as mi selfe and to doo him seruice agenst I come to be preeste? Vvhat let is youre seconde wife to you to serue oure holy father the pope moare then youre first wold hauehave bene? And in like maner if my first wife dye / when I am preest / why maye I not louelove my neyboure and doo him as good seruice with the seconde as with the firste? And agayne / if I be made prest hauinge no wife and aftir burne / & therfore marie / why maye I not louelove my neyboure and serue him with that wife / as well as he y^• brought a wife with him?

It was not for nought that paul prophesyed that some shuld departe from the fayth / and 1. Timo 4attende vntounto disceueable spirites and deuelysh doctryne forbiddynge to mary and to eate meates which god hath created to be receaued with thankes of them that know the trouth / to bye dyspensacyons to vse lawfull mete and vnlawfull wyves₊

If I axe Master More whi he that hath the seconde wite or hath had .ii. wives may not be a prest / or whi if a prestes first wyfe die / he maye not mary the seconde / he wyll answere because Apparent godlinesse whi the prest maye not hauehave the seconde wyfethe prest must represent the misteries or secret properties and vnion of christe the only husbonde of his only wife the crurch or congregacion that beleueth in him only. That is / as I hauehave in other places sayde / the scripture describeth vsus in matrimonie the misteries and secret benefites which God the father hath hyd in christ for all thē y^• be chosen and ordeyned to beleue & Christes benefytes towardes vsus are figured by matrimonye.put their trustes in hym to be saued. As when a man taketh a wife he geueth hir him selfe / his honoure / hys riches and all that he hath and maketh her of equall degre vn to him selfe: if he be kinge and she before a beggers doughter / yet she is not the lesse quene and in honoure a boue all other / if he be emproure she ys empresse and honoured of men as the emproure and partetaket of all. Euen so yf a man repent and come & beleue in christ to be saued from the damnacyon of the synne of which he repenteth / christ ys hys awne good immediatly: christes deeth / payne / prayar / passion / fastynge and all his merites are for that mans synnes a full satisfaccyon ād a sacrifice of might and power to absolue hym a pena et a culpa: christes enheretaunce / hys louelove p. xcviād fauoure that he hath with god his father are that mans by and by / and the man by that mariage is pure as christ and cleane wyth out synne / and honourable / glorious / well beloued and in fauoure thorow the grace of that mariage. And because that the prest must represent vsus thys significaciō / is the cause whi a preest maye not hauehave the seconde wife saye they whych popish reason hath disceaued many wise / as who cā be but disceaued in some thinge / if he receaue all hys doctrine by the auctorite of hys elders / excepte he hauehave an occasion as we hauehave to runne to Moses and the prophetes and there heare and se with oure awne eyes ād beleue no lenger by the reason of oure forefathers / when we se them so shamfully begild them selues and to begile vsus in a thousande thinges whych the turkes se₊

Now to oure purpose / iff thys doctryne be true / then must eueryevery preest hauehave a wyfe or hauehave had a wife. For he y^t neuer had wife cā not represent vsus this. And againe he that hath an hore or a nother mans wyfe / hath lost this propirte ād therfore ought to be put downe.

And agayne / the seconde mariage then of no man is or can be a sacrament by that doctryne. And yet I will describe you the mariage off christ as well by hys mariage that hath had .ix. wiues and hath now the tenth / as by his that hath now the firste₊

O wil they saye / his wife was no virgin or he whē they were maried. Sir the significacyon stondeth not in y^• virginite but in y^• actual wedlocke. we were no virgēs whē we came to christ but comē hores beleuinge in a thousand Idoles

And in the seconde mariage or tenth and ye will / the man hath but one wife and all his is hirs / and his other wiues be in a lande where is no husbonde or wife. I saye therfore with Paul that this is deuellish doctrine and hath a similitude of godlynesse with it but the power is a waye. The myst of it blindeth the eyes of the simple and begyleth them / that they can not se a thousande abhominacions wrought vnderunder y^• clocke.

And therfore I saye still / that the apostles meaninge was that he shuld hauehave a wife / if haply his age were not y^• gretter / and that by one wife he excludeth them that had two and them that were defamed with other saue their awne wiues / and wolde hauehave them to be soch as were knowen of vertuouse liuynge / for to doo reuerence and honoure vn to the doctrine of Christe. As it appereth by the wedowes whych he excludeth before .lx. yeres for feare of vnchastite wedowesand admitteth yet none of that age excepte she were well knowen of chast / honeste and godly behauoure / and that to honoure gods worde with all / than whych the pope hath nothynge moare vile. And when Master More to mocke / bringeth forth the texte of the wedowe / that she must be the wife of one man. I answere for all his iestyuge / that Paul excludeth not hir y^t had x. husbādes one aftir a nother / but hir that had ij. husbandes attonce. And when More laugheth at it / as though it had neuer bene the gyse. I wold to god for his mercy that it were not y^• gyse this daye / and then I am sure his wrath wold not be so greate as it is. Paul meaneth only y^• he wold hauehave no diffamed woman chosen wedowe for dishonourynge y^• worde of god p. xcvijand the congregacion of Christ / and therfore excludeth comen wemen and soch as were dyffamed besydes their husbandes and haply the deuorced therto. And that I proue by the same doctrine of Paule / that the kyngdome of god is no soch busynes but the kepynge of gods commandementes only and to louelove one a nother. Now loke on the thynge and on the office of y^• wedowe. It was but to wayte on the sicke and pore people ād to washe straungers fete. Now the wedowes of .x. husbādes must hauehave be founde of the cost of the congregacion / iff they were destitute of frendes / as all other pore were / though in tyme passed they hauehave bene diffamed persons.

But vnderunder .lx. wold Paul let none ministre for feare of occasions of vnchastite / and therto none but soch as were well knowen of honeste liuynge and of good reporte. Now in as moch as the wedow of .x. husbandes must be founde of the comen cost at hir nede / what vnclennesse is in hir by the reason of hir seconde husbonde / that she is not good ynough to be a seruaunte vn to the pore people / to dresse their meate / to wash their clothes / to make their beddes and so forth and to wash straūgers fete / that came out of one congregacion vn to a nother a boute busynesse / and to doo all maner seruice of louelove vn to her pore brethern and sisters. To hauehave had the seconde husbande is no shame amōge the hethen: it is no shame amonge the christē for when the husbonde is deed / the wife is fre to mary to whom she wyll in the lorde / and by as good reason the husbande / and of right who moare fre then the preeste? And therfore they shame not our doctrine ner oure congregacion / ner dishonoure god amonge the hethen or weake Christen. Now when we hauehave a playne rule that he whych loueth his neyboure as him selfe kepeth all the lawes of god / lett him tell me for Roma. 13.what cause of louelove towarde his neyboure / a wedowe of two lawfull husbandes maye not doo seruice vn to the pore people₊

Vvhy maye not a wedowe of .l. doo seruice vn to the pore? paule whych knitteth no snares ner leadeth vsus blinde ner teacheth vsus wyth out a reason geuynge of his doctrine / answereth / for feare of occasions of euell / lest she be tempted or tempte other: And then if she be taken in misdoenge / the doctrine of Christ be euell spoke of therto and the weake offended.

And when Master More mocheth wyth my reason that I wolde hauehave eueryevery preest to hauehave a wife because fewe mē can liue chaste / I answere / that if he loued the honoure of Christ ād his neyboure as he doeth his awne couetousnesse / he shuld finde that a good argumente. Paul maketh the same and moch moare sclenderly then I after youre sophistrie. For he disputeth thus / some younge wedowes do dishonest the congregacion of Christe and his doctrine / therfore shall no younge wedow at all ministre in the comune seruice therof: But shall all be maried and bere childern and serue their husbandes. And it is a fer lesse rebuke to the doctrine of Christ and his congregaciō / that a womā shuld doo amisse / then the bisshope or preest. I am not so mad / to thinke that there coude no prest at all liue chaste. Nether am I so folish to thynke that there be not as many wemen that coude liue chast at .l. as {pre}stes as .xxiiij. And yet though of a thousande wedowes of .l. yere olde p. xcviijix. hundred .xc. and .ix. coude lyue chast / Paul because he knoweth not that one / wyll lett none at all ministre in the comen seruice amonge occasion of vnchastite. Christes appostles consydered all infirmities and all that might hindre the doctrine of Christe / and therfore did their beste to preuent all occasions. Vvherfore as fish is no better then flesh / ner flesh better then fish in the kyngdome of Christ / euen so virginite wedlocke and wedowed are none better then other to be saued by in their awne nature or to please good with all / but with whatsoeuer I maye best serue my brethern / that is euer best acordinge vn to the tyme and facion of the worlde. In persecucion it is good for eueryevery mā to liue chast can he / and namely for the preacher. In peace when a man maye liue quietly and abyde in one place / a wife is a sure thynge to cutt of occasions₊

Then he wold make it seme that prestes wiues More. ☜ Tindalewere the occasions of heresies in almanye. Naye / they fell first to heresies and then toke wiues / as ye fell first to the popis holy doctrine and then toke whores.

M. the church byndeth no man to chastite. T. More. Tindaleof a trueth / for it geueth licence to who soeuer wyll / to kepe hores / ād permitteth to abuse mēs wiues and sofereth sodomitrie / and doeth but only forbid matrimonie₊

And when he sayth / chastite was allmoste receaued by generall custome / before the law Thre lye… at oncewas made: one lye. And good fathers did but geue their aduise therto: a nother lye. And it was ratified and receaued wyth the consent of all christendome: the third lye.

They dyd well to chose a poete to be their defender. First it was attempted in generall counsell and resisted by holy fathers whych yet them selues were neuer maried / sayenge y^t men might not knitte a snare for their weake brethern / agenst the doctrine of Christ and his appostles. Nether coude it be brought to passe / vntyll the pope had gott the emproures swerde out of his hande. The grekes which were y^• one halfe of christendome then I suppose / wold neuer admitte it.

Now godly louelove wold neuer sofre them to consent that we shuld be bound vn to y^t burthē which they thē selues coude not beare as M. More in a nother place affermith y^t they dyd. And agayne / we hauehave manyfest stories that it was brought in with violēce of swerde ād that all the prestes of germany were cōpelled to put awaye their wiues. And we finde that whersoeuer the pope raygneth / he came in with disceauinge the kynge of the contre and thē with his swerde compelled the reste. The pope came but now late in to wales to raygne / there ouer the bisshopes and prestes / and that with the swerd of the kinge of Englonde₊

And yet though all the clergie of christendome had graunted it / all the church had not made it ner yet the tenth parte of the church. The laye people be as well of the church as the prestes. Nether can all the prestes in the world of ryght make any lawe wherin their parte lyeth with out their consent. Now it perteyneth vn to the comen people and most of all vn to y^• weakest / y^t their prestes be endued with all vertu and honestie. And the chastite of his wife / doughter ād seruaunt perteyneth vn to eueryevery particular man / whych we se by experience defiled p. xcixdayly / by the vnchaste chastite of the spiritualtye₊

Vvherfore if the parishes or any one parish / after they had sene the experience what inconuenientes come of their chastite / wold hauehave no curat excepte he had a wife to cutt of occasions / as Paul when he had sene y^t proffe / wold hauehave no younge wedowes ministre / who saue a tirant / shuld be agenst them?

Morouer the generall counsels of the spiriritualtye Generall counsellar of no nother maner sens the pope was a god then the generall parlamentes of y^• temperaltie. Vvhere no man dare saye his mynde frely and liberally for feare of some one and of his flaterars.

And loke in what captiuite the parlamētes Parliament.be vnderunder the priuatt counsels of kynges / so are y^e generall counsels vnderunder the pope and his cardenales. And this is the maner of both. Some one two or there wilie foxes that hauehave all other in subieccion / as ye hauehave sene in my lorde cardenall / imagen / not what ought to be / but what they lust to hauehave & conceaue in their awne braynes and goo with child / some tyme a yere .ij. iij. iiij. v. vj. or .vij. and some tyme .xx. and a boue / castynge / can vesynge and compasynge for the birth agenst oportunite: openinge the mater priuely vnderunder an oth a litle and a litle vn to certayne secretaries whose parte is therin / as they finde men of actiuite and of corage / prepared to sel soul and body for promocion.

And the mater in the meane tyme is turmoyled and tossed amonge them selues: and persuacions and sotle reasons ar forged to blinde the right waye and to begyle mens Wittes. And whom they feare to hauehave aduersaries able to resiste them / for soch meanes ar sought / to brynge them in vn to their partie or to conuey thē out of the waye. And when oportunite is come / they call a counsell or parlament vnderunder a contrary pretence. And a masse of the holy gost / whō they desyre as ferre awaye as were possible / is songe and a goodly sermon is made / to blere mens eyes with all. And then sodenly other men vnprouided / the mater is opened / aftir the most sotle maner. And many are begyled with sotle argumentes and craftie persuasions. And they y^t hold harde agenst them ar called asyde and resoned with aparte and handeled aftir a facion / and partly entised with fayre promises ād partly feared with cruell threatenynges / and so some ar ouercome with syluer sylogismoses and other for feare of threateninges are dreuē vntounto silence / And if any be founde at the last / y^t wyll not obeye their falshed and tiranny / they rayle on him and ieste him out of countenaunce and call him opinatiue / selfeminded and obstinat / ād bere him in hand that the deuell is in him that he so cleueth vn to his awne witte / though he speake no sillable then gods worde / and is axed whether he wilbe wyser then other men. And in the spiritualtye they excomunicat him & make an heretike of him. And this to be true in the clargies chastite is as clere as the daye by manifest chronicles / in so moch that the prelates of Rome / were a brewenge it a boue an hundred yeres and I wott not how longe lenger / yer they coude brynge it to passe / and yet in vayne till they had gotte the emproures swerde to proue that it was most expedient so to be. And for what entent? to brynge all vnderunder the pope / and p. Cthat the prelates of all landes might as y^• olde why preestes maye hauehave no wyues.maner was / come and wayte on y^• pope at Rome / where he prepared them hores ynow.

And that his sworen prelates in eueryevery lande / might the moare conueniently wayte in kynges courtes / to ministre the comen welth vn to the popis pleasure and profite. For had y^e clargie kepte their wiues / they coude neuer hauehave come vn to this aboue where they now be / and to these pluralities / vnions and totquottes. For their is no laye man though he were neuer so evell disposed / that coude for his wife and childern hauehave leyser to contriue soch mischeue and to runne from contre to contre / to lerne falshed and so tilte / as our spiritualtye doo / which with out feare of god and shame of man / kepe whores whersoeuer they come. And thus ye se that the clargies chastite perteyneth as moch vn to the temporalte as vn to the spiritualte.

And a nother is this / no power amonge thē y^t professe the trouth / maye bynd where god lowseth / saue only where louelove and my neybours necessite requireth it of me. Nether can any power now bynd them to come / but they may frely kepe or breake / as the thynge is hurtfull or expedient. Nether can there be any bonde where louelove and necessite requireth the contrary. So that this law / louelove thy neyboure / to helpe him as thou woldest be holpe / must interpret all mās lawes.

As if I had sworn younge or vnwysely that I wold liue chaste and all the world had bound me / if afterward I burnt and coude not ouercome the passion / I ought to mary.

For I must condicyon my vowe and shew Vowes.a cause of it therto. I maye not vow for y^• chastite it selfe as though it were sacrifice to please god in it selfe / for that is the Idolatrie of he then. I must therfore vowe to doo my neyboure seruice (which in that case he maye not require) or to geue my selfe moare quietly to prayer & studie (which is not possible as longe as I burne & the mynd wyll not be quiet) or that I maye the better kepe the lawes of god whych if I burne I stond thorow my chastite in moare ieoperdie to breake and to hurte my neyboure and to shame the doctrine of christe. And in like maner / If I had forsworen fleshe & all the world had bound me / yet if necessite require it of me / to saue my life or my health / I ought to breake it. And agayne though I had sworn chastite / ād the comen wealth or the necessite of a nother required the contrary / I must breake it. But on y^e one syde / of all y^t euer burnt in the popis chastite / he neuer gaue prest licēce to take wife / but to kepe hores only. And on the other syde / all y^t vow any vow / doo it for the thynge it selfe as though it were as I said seruice or sacrifice to god that had delite in the dede / as younge childern hauehave in apples / and y^• for that dede they shall hauehave an hier rowme in heuen thē their neyboures / which is the Idolatrie of the hethē / when he ought to bestow his vow vppō his neyboure to brynge him to heuen and not to envye him and to seke therby an hier rowme not carynge whether his neyboure come thither or no And finally to burne and not to wyll vse the naturall remedye that god hath made / is but to tempte god / as in all other thynges. But and if god hauehave brought the in to a strayte and hauehave therto taken the naturall remedye from p. Cithe / then to resiste and to crie vn to God for helpe and to sofre / is a signe that thou louest gods lawes. And to louelove Gods law is to besure that thou art Gods child electe to merciemercy. For in all his childern only / he writeth that token

And then he saith / eueryevery man hath his choyce whether he wilbe preest or no. But what nettes and snares doeth antichrist laye for them? First his false doctrins / where with theelders be gyled / compell their childern and sacrifice them / The popes snares.to burne in the popis chastite with no nother mynde / thē those old Idolaters sacrificed their 1childern vn to the false god Moloch: so y^t they thinke / by the merites of their childerns burninge / after the popes false doctrine / to please god and to gett heuen / cleane ignoraunt of the testament made in christes bloude.

Then what a multitude ar blinded and drawen in to the nett / with the bayte of promociō / 2honoure / dignite / pleasures / fredome and liberte to synne and to doo al mischeue vnpunished / thinges which all evell that feare not god doo desyre?

And what a numbre brought vpp ydely vn 3to .xx. and aboue / then put their heedes in his halter / because they hauehave no nother craft to gett their liuinges & not because they can liue chaste.

Also some liue chast at .xxiiii. which same burne at .xxx. And that to be true dayly experiēce 4teacheth and good naturall causes therbe.

And then loke on the appostles lerninge & ordinaunce. when one or .ii. younge wedowes 5had broken there chastite / he wold neuer after let any moo be chosen of the same age. How cometh it then that the pope for so many hundred thousandes that miscary / wil nether breake the ordinaunce or mitigat it / or let any goo backe / but if any burne / sendeth them vn to the shame of christes doctrine and offendinge ād hurte off his church and neuer vn to the lawfull remedie of mariage₊

And when Master More calleth it heresie / to thinke that the maried were as pleasant to god as the vnmaried / he is surelye an heretyke that thynketh the contrary. Christes kingdome is nether meat ner drinke ner husband ner wife ner wedow ner virgin / but the kepynge off the commaundementes and seruinge of a mans neyboure louingely by the doctrine of S. paule. where not to eate helpeth me to kepe the commaundementes better then to eate / there yt ys better not to eate then to eate. And where too eate helpeth me to kepe the commaundementes and to doo my dutie vn to my neyboure / there it is better to eate then not to eate. And in like case where to be with out a wife helpeth moare to kepe the commaundementes and to serue a mans neyboure / there yt is better to be vnmaried then maried / and where a wife helpeth too kepe the commaundementes better then to bewith out / there it is better to hauehave a wife then to be with out. That herte only whych is readye to do or lett vndone all thynges for his neyboures ☞sake / is a plesaunt thynge in the syght of god₊

And when he wyll hauehave the prestes to liue chaste / for reuerence off the sacramentes yt ys deuellish doctrine hauinge the similitude of godlynesse / but the pith and mary is awaye. If he meane water / oyle salt and soch like / then is the p. Cijwife with hir body ād all hir vses in the lawes of god / incomparable purer and holyer. If he meane the sacrament of christes body / I answere / that the handes defile not the man ner ought that goeth thorow the handes be they neuer so vnwashe / by the testimonie of christe / and moch Mat. 15.Matt 15lesse can they then defile christe.

Morouer the prest twitcheth not christes natural body with his handes by yours awne doctrine / ner seith it with his eyes / ner breaketh yt with his fingers ner eateth it wyth hys mouth ner chammeth yt wyth hys teeth ner drinketh his bloude with his lippes / for christe is impassible. But he that repenteth towarde the law The sacramēt of the altare ād how it must be receyvedof god / and at the sight of the sacrament or off the breakinge / felynge / eatynge / chamminge or drinkinge / calleth to remembraunce the deeth of christe / his body breakynge and bloudshedynge for our synnes and all hys passion / the same cateth our sauioures body and drinketh his bloude thorow faith only and receaueth forgeuenesse of all his synnes therby / and other not. And all that hauehave not this doctrine of the sacrament come therto in vayne. And therfore there is no moare cause that he which sayeth y^• masse shuld lyue chast then he that heareth it / or he that ministreth y^• sacrament / then he y^t receaueth it. It is to me greate maruell that vnlawfull whore dome couetousnesse and extorsion can not defyle their handes / as well as lawfull matrimonie ☜Cursed therfore be their deuellish doctrine with false apperinge godlinesse the frute and power awaye / out of the hertes of all christen men₊

And when he bringeth the ensample of the hethen / I praise him. For y^• hethen because they coude not vnderstond god spiritually / to serue him in the sprite to beleue in him ād to louelove his lawes / therfore they turned his glorie vn to an image and sarued him after their awne imaginacion with bodyly seruice as the hole kingdome of the pope doeth / hauinge lesse power to serue him in spirite than the turkes. For when the hethen made an image of the axes or feuers ād sacrificed therto / they knew that the image was ☞not the feuers / but vnderunder the similitude of the ymage / they worsheped y^t power of god which plaged them with the feuers / wyth bodyly seruice / as the pope doeth aboue al the Idolaters that euer were in the worlde. As when we paynte saint Micael weyenge the soules and steke S Micael wayeth y^• soulesvpp a candell to flater him and to make him fauourable vn to vsus / ād regarde not the testamēt of christ ner the lawes of god / because we hauehave no power to beleue ner to louelove the trueth. And euen so to referre virginite vn to the person of god / to please him therwith is false sacrifice ād hethenish Idolatrie. For y^• onelyonly seruice of god is to beleue in christ and to louelove the lawe. wherefore thou must referre thi wedlocke / thi virginite ād all thi wother deades vn to the kepinge of the lawe and seruinge thy neyboure only. And then when thou lokest with a louinge herte / on the law that saith breake not wedlocke / kepe no whore and so forth / and findest thi body weake and thine office soch that thou must hauehave cōuersacion with mens wiues / doughters ād seruaūtes / then it is better to hauehave a wife then to bewith out. And agayne if thou se seruice to bedone that thou canst not so wel do with a wife as with out / then if thou hauehave power to be with out it is best so to be / and in soch like. And else y^• p. Ciijone is as good as the other and no difference. And to take a wife for pleasure / is as good as to absteyne for displeasure

And when Mastre More seith no nother cause / why it is not best y^t oure spiritualtie were all gelded / then for losse of merite in resistynge / besydes that that imaginaciō is playne Idolatrie / I hold M. More begylde / iff all we reade of gelded men be true and the experience we se whether it were best y^t prestes were geldedin other bestes. For then the gelded lust in their flesh as moch as the vngelded. which if be true / then the gelded / in y^t he taketh soch greate payne in geldynge / not to minysh his lustes but if lustes ouercome him / yet that he hauehave not were with to hurte his neyboure / deserueth moare then the vngelded. And thē it were best that we ate and dronke and made oure flesh stronge y^t we burned / to deserue in resistynge / as some of youre holy sayntes hauehave layd virgens in their beddes / to kendle their corage / that they might ☜after quench their hete in colde water / to deserue the merite of holy marters

And when he saith / the prestes of the olde law absteyned from their wiues when they serued in the themple. Many thynges were forboden them / to kepe them in bonde and seruile feare and for other purposes. And yet I trow he findeth it not in the texte that they were forboden their wiues. And when he imageneth so because zacharias / when his course was out / gatt him whom to his howse I thynke it was better for him to go to his howse / then to send for his howse to him he was also olde and his wife to. But and if they were forboden / it was but for a tyme / to geue thē to prayar / as we might doo right well ād as well as they. But I read that they were forbodē to drinke wine & stronge drinke / Leuit. x.Lev 10when they ministred: of which oures powre in with our measure

M. More. christ liued chast and exhorteth vn More Tyndale.to chastite. Tindale. we be not al of christes complexion / nether exhorteth he to other chastite thē wedlocke / saue at a tyme to serue oure neyboures. Now the popis chastite is not to serue a mans neyboure / but to runne to riotte and to carie a waye with him the liuynge of the pore and of the true preacher / even the tythes of .v. or .vi. parishes and to go and ether dwell by a stues or to carye a stewes with him / or to corrupte other mennes wiues

Pannutius a man that neuer proued mariage panutiusis praysed in the stories / for resistynge soch doctrine with gods worde in a generall counsel before the pope was a god. And now M. More a mā that hath proued it twise is magnified for defendynge it with sophistrie. And ageyne me semeth that it is agreate ouer sight of M. More to thinke that christ though he were neuer maried wold not moare accepte the seruice of a maried man that wold moare saye trouth for him then they y^t abhorre wedlocke: in as moch as y^• spiritualte accepte his hūble saruyce & rewarde his merites with so hye honoure / because he cā better fayne for them / thē any of their vnchaste / I wold saye awne chast people / though he be bigamus and past the grace of his necke verse.

And finally / if M. More loke so moch on y^• pleasure that is in mariage / why setteth he not his eyes on the thankes geuynge for that pleasure and on the pacience of other displeasures.

xiiij

p. CiiijM. Vvicleffe was the occasion of the vttur M. Moresubucrsion of the realme of Bohem / both in faith and good liuynge and of the losse of many a thousand liues T. the rule of their faith ar Tyndale.christes promises / and the rule of their liuynge gods lawe. And as for losse of liues / it is trouth that the pope slew I thynke an hundred thousande of them because of their faith and y^t they wold no lenger serue him. As he slew in englonde many a thousande / and slew the true kynge and sett vpp a false vn to the effusion of all the noble bloude ād murtherynge vpp of the cominaltie / because he shulde be his defender.

M. The cōstitucion of the bisshopes is not y^t M. Morey^• scripture shall not be in englysh / but that no man maye translate it by his awne auctorite or reade it / vntill they had approued it. T. if no translation Tyndaleshalbe had vntill they geue licence or till they approue it / it shall neuer be had. And so it is al one in effecte. to saye there shalbe none at all in englysh / and to saye / tyl we admitte it / seinge they be so maliciouse that they wil none admitte / but fayne al the cauellacions they cā / to proue it were not expedient. So that if it be not had spite of their hertes it shal neuer be had And therto / they hauehave done their best to hauehave had it enacted by parlament / that it shuld not be in englysh

xv.

HE iesteth out hunnes deeth with his poetrie Hunnewhere with he bylte vtopia. Many greate lordes came to baynardes castell (but all namelesse) to examen the cause (as the credible prelates so wel lerned / so holy and so indifferent which examined bilney and Arture / be also all namelesse)M. More Horsey Tyndale.

M. Horsey toke his pardon / because yt is not good / to refuse gods pardon and the kynges. T. Gods pardon can no man hauehave excepte he knowlege him selfe a synner. And euen so he that receaueth the kynges yeldelth him selfe giltie / And morouer it is not possible that he which putteth his trust in god / shulde for feare off the xii. men or of his iudges / receaue pardō for that he neuer was fautie vn to the dishonouringe of our sauioure Iesus / but wold hauehave denied it rather vn to the deeth₊

And therto / iff the mater were so clere as ye iest it out / then I am sure the kynges graces both curtesie and wysdome / wolde have charged the iudges to hauehave examined y^• euidence layed agenst him diligently and so to hauehave quitte him with moare honestie then to geue him pardon of that he neuer treaspased in / and to hauehave rid the spiritualtye out of hate ād all suspyciō₊

Then saith he hunne was sore susspecte of Hunneheresie and conuicte. And after he saith hunne was an heretike in dede ād in perell so to be proued. And thē how was he conuicte? I herde saye / ☞that he was first conuicte / whē he was deed end then they did wronge to burne him / til they had spoken with him / to wete wether he wolde abiure or no₊

M. the bisshope of london / was wyse / vertuous and conynge. T. For all those .iii. yet M. More Tyndale Doctoure Colethe wold hauehave made the old deane Colet of paules an heretyke / fōr translatynge the Pater noster in englyshe / had not the bysshope of canterbury holpe the deane₊

p. Cvxvi.Old translation.

The messinger axeth hym / if there be an olde lawfull trāslacion before wicleffes / how happeneth it y^t it is in so few mens handes / seinge so many desyre it? He answereth the printer dare not print it and then hange on a doutful triall / whether it were trāslated sens or before. For if it were translated sens / it must be first approued.

VVhat maye not Master More saye by auctorite of his poetrie? there is a lawfull translacion that noman knoweth which is as moch as no lawfull translacion. Vvhi mighte not the bisshopes shew which were that lawful translacion and lat it be printed? Naye if that might hauehave bene obteyned of them with large money it had be printed ye maye besure longe yer this. But sir answere me here vn to / how happeneth that ye defendars trāslate not one youre selues / to cease the murmoure of the people / and put to youre awne gloses / to preuent heretikes? ye wold no doute hauehave done it longesens / if ye coude hauehave made youre gloses agre with the texte in eueryevery place. And what can you saye to this / how that besydes they hauehave done their best to disanull all translatynge by parlament / they hauehave disputed before the kinges grace / that is it perelous and not mete and so concluded that it shal not be / vnderunder a pretence of deferrynge it of certayne yeres. where Master More was their speciall orator / to fayne lyes for their purpose.

M. nothinge discorageth y^t clergie so moch More Tindale.as that they of the worst sorte most calleth after it. T. it might wel be / phareses full of holynesse longe not after it / but publicans that hongre after merciemercy myght sore desyre it. How be it / it is in very dede a suspecte thinge ād a greate signe of an heretike to require it₊

Then he iugleth wyth allegories. Syr / Moses deliuered thē al y^t he had receaued of god ād that in y^e mother tonge / in which all y^t had the hert therto studied & not y^• prestes only as thou mayst se in the scripture. And y^• apostles kepte nothinge behide / as paul testified actes. xx. how he had shewed thē all y^• counsell of god ād had kepte nought backe Shuld y^• laye people lesse herken▪ vntounto y^• exposicions of the prelates in doutfull places / if the texte were in their handes when they preached?

M. y^• Iewes geue greate reuerēce vntounto y^• bible & we sit on it. T. y^• pope putteth it vnderunder his M. More Tindalefete & treadeth on it / in tokē y^t he is lorde ouer it that it shulde sarue him / & he not it. M. God hath ordeyned y^• ordinaries for chefe phisiciōs M. More TindaleT. they be lawiers ordeined of y^e pope / & can no moare skill of y^• scripture thā they y^• neuer sawe it: ye and hauehave professed a cōtrary doctrine. They be right hangemē to murther whosoeuer desireth for y^t doctrine y^t god hath geuen to be the ordinary of our faith and liuinge.

And whē he maketh so greate difficulte ād hardnesse in paules pistles. I saie / it is impossyble to vnderstōd ether peter or paul or ought at al in y^• scripture / for him y^t denieth y^• iustifiēge of faith in christes bloude. And agayne it is impossible to vnderstōde in y^• scripture moare thē a turke for whosoeuer hath not the law of god written in his herte to fulfil it. Of which pointe ād of true faith to / I feare me y^t you are voyde ād empte with all youre spiritualtie / whose defender ye hauehave takē vppon you to be / for to mocke out the trouth for lucre and vauntage₊